How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I think he wants more background checks done by Uber for drivers or a licencing system where Uber needs to licence their drivers.
Well, Ms Cyclefree seems to have been on the money in 2013, given that Ahmad subsequently pleaded guilty to conspiracy and providing material support to terrorism, and was sentenced to 12.5 years.
What is it about certain posters on here, indeed?
Ironically Corbyn and McDonnell have helped Khan here, it is almost priced in now, Labour being portrayed as terrorist sympathisers
For the record, I don't think Khan is a terrorist sympathiser. And it's almost inevitable that some of his political supporter trove.
As I said, once is an accident, twice is stupidity, more than that and it begins to paint an ugly picture of the man.
or of a city like London.
I thr.
controlling for hyperbole, that's still an unfair comment.
Given t Plus there is the (anyone but) Zac factor also.
"I'd rather have a proven Fascist sympathiser who is now nervous of his image, in prefeence than a lefty idiot who thinks Fascism is cool", is what you're saying.
Well, it's an opinion. And indeed there may be something to it.
But I'd far rather have someone with no links to Fascism at all, thanks very much. So Zac it is, for all his faults.
Well if he is an Islamist sympathiser then he has balls the size of cannonballs to hire all these people, speak out for having a muslim London mayor, etc in the face of what he must realise will be such scrutiny.
That, or monumentally stupid.
I don't think he is an Islamist sympathiser, nor monumentally stupid...so that leaves him as a guy who has been in the same vicinity previously as some bad eggs and whose campaign manager needs a b*ll*cking for some inadequate background checks.
Go Zac!
Again, if all these associations of his were with Fascists, rather than Islamofascists, I find it hard to believe you would be 1% so forgiving. You wouldn't, would you?
But I recall you are helplessly foolish and myopic on this question, so let's drop it. I must to the Tiger's Nest tomorrow, so an early night is needed. Tashi Delek.
I'm not on my strongest ground here, fair enough. Enjoy.
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I am being strongly urged to run to be either Mayor of Sheffield or as Mayor of Greater Manchester.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I am being strongly urged to run to be either Mayor of Sheffield or as Mayor of Greater Manchester.
Mr. NorthWales, Carney's suggestion that we'd lose more sovereignty if we left the EU than if we remained within seems utterly bizarre to me.
I'd urge you to consider the long term interests of the UK, which are at odds with the integration drive of the eurozone, which also has a critical mass when it comes to QMV.
Mr. Eagles, if you run for Manchester, could you change your PB username to Judas?
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
So dull, the Democratic primary is way more interesting, never mind the GOP.
lol, very true
True. Still, there's always the Northern Ireland Assembly elections if we're short of a topic.
If you're lucky, I might do a thread on the various voting systems being used in the May elections.
Sunil J. Prasannan is calling for a total and complete shut-down of AV threads entering PB.com, until our forum's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
I find it difficult to believe that a former Governor of the BoE - at least, one who'd done a half-competent job - couldn't find himself a place at Goldman Sachs if he so desired.
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I am being strongly urged to run to be either Mayor of Sheffield or as Mayor of Greater Manchester.
I'll leave London to you.
Better try Sheffield. Manchester voters don't vote Tory
Mr. NorthWales, Carney's suggestion that we'd lose more sovereignty if we left the EU than if we remained within seems utterly bizarre to me.
I'd urge you to consider the long term interests of the UK, which are at odds with the integration drive of the eurozone, which also has a critical mass when it comes to QMV.
Mr. Eagles, if you run for Manchester, could you change your PB username to Judas?
The idea that the EU is responsible for our economic dynamism is simply laughable, no matter how eloquently he said it.
We know the economic impacts of Brexit will be marginal simply because so many (genuinely) independent think tanks and studies have shown so.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
George Osborne appointee backs Remain. Shock.
You will need to do better than that - if leave only shout conspiracy whenever something does not go their way they will lose
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
George Osborne appointee backs Remain. Shock.
You will need to do better than that - if leave only shout conspiracy whenever something does not go their way they will lose
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Leave is dependent on events to get a route to victory. Given the instabilities in the EU, that's not a completely hopeless position, but it is strategically inept to be so reliant on things going in a particular way. Events might just as easily go in the opposite direction.
I agree. My confidence is not helped by the fact I haven't heard a peep from Vote Leave despite writing to them more than a week ago.
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I am being strongly urged to run to be either Mayor of Sheffield or as Mayor of Greater Manchester.
I'll leave London to you.
Better try Sheffield. Manchester voters don't vote Tory
As a general rule, they no longer vote Tory in Sheffield either, there's not a single Tory councillor in Sheffield.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
That explains what was so dislikable about Lawson when he was Thatcher's CoE. So arrogant that anyone disagreeing with him must be dishonest. A real piece of work.
So dull, the Democratic primary is way more interesting, never mind the GOP.
lol, very true
True. Still, there's always the Northern Ireland Assembly elections if we're short of a topic.
If you're lucky, I might do a thread on the various voting systems being used in the May elections.
Sunil J. Prasannan is calling for a total and complete shut-down of AV threads entering PB.com, until our forum's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!
None of the voting systems in May are AV, so you're safe.
Mr. NorthWales, Carney's suggestion that we'd lose more sovereignty if we left the EU than if we remained within seems utterly bizarre to me.
I'd urge you to consider the long term interests of the UK, which are at odds with the integration drive of the eurozone, which also has a critical mass when it comes to QMV.
Mr. Eagles, if you run for Manchester, could you change your PB username to Judas?
Mr. NorthWales, Carney's suggestion that we'd lose more sovereignty if we left the EU than if we remained within seems utterly bizarre to me.
I'd urge you to consider the long term interests of the UK, which are at odds with the integration drive of the eurozone, which also has a critical mass when it comes to QMV.
Mr. Eagles, if you run for Manchester, could you change your PB username to Judas?
I am considering the long term future and have no problem with the eurozone and our place outside of it. I would also make the point that by being in the EU then over time we can develop close alliance's with the Danes, Swedes, Finns, Germany and others who's interests are shared
Dr. Prasannan, ancient Athens had lots of penis sculptures, protruding from columns in public places, I think. It was meant to be lucky to give them a rub, if memory serves.
One night, lots of them were smashed off. I think Alcibiades was the prime suspect.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Or is the EU simply going through the motions? Buys them some more time, whilst the refugee problem piles up in Turkey. Eventually the Turks will lose patience, and send the whole lot north.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
I think the plan is that they will be able to visit without a visa , benefits etc not included.
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
Lol!!
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
It seems all leave have left are conspiracy theories that actually diminishes them. They need to make their own case for leaving
Don't tell him I said it, but SeanT got it right when he said
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs
Terrific tip from Henry.Nervous punters can always lay a bit off for a guaranteed payout.It's tips like this which confirms any retirement fund must include a betting bank amongst its portfolio. Looks like it's now Trump v Cruz.
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Yes - They do not get visa free access to the UK - Furthermore any negotiations to join will take many years and that agreement to join has to be voted unanimously by all 28 and that is not going to happen anytime soon. On last nights thread several leavers accepted that it was not going to happen in the foreseable future
Well, Ms Cyclefree seems to have been on the money in 2013, given that Ahmad subsequently pleaded guilty to conspiracy and providing material support to terrorism, and was sentenced to 12.5 years.
What is it about certain posters on here, indeed?
Ironically Corbyn and McDonnell have helped Khan here, it is almost priced in now, Labour being portrayed as terrorist sympathisers
For the record, I don't think Khan is a terrorist sympathiser. And it's almost inevitable that some of his political supporter trove.
As I said, once is an accident, twice is stupidity, more than that and it begins to paint an ugly picture of the man.
or of a city like London.
I thr.
controlling for hyperbole, that's still an unfair comment.
Given the various questions asked about Khan and Islamism, and having done some but not exhaustive reading around Babar Ahmed, I can say that I would prefer a candidate such as Khan who is probably aware of those questions and will seek by word and deed to distance himself from them completely.
Rather than eg. another Labour loon, say a white middle class Islingtonian who would probably feel quite unabashed at attending, eg. Freedom for Palestine rallies.
Plus there is the (anyone but) Zac factor also.
"I'd rather have a proven Fascist sympathiser who is now nervous of his image, in prefeence than a lefty idiot who thinks Fascism is cool", is what you're saying.
Well, it's an opinion. And indeed there may be something to it.
But I'd far rather have someone with no links to Fascism at all, thanks very much. So Zac it is, for all his faults.
Well if he is an Islamist sympathiser then he has balls the size of cannonballs to hire all these people, speak out for having a muslim London mayor, etc in the face of what he must realise will be such scrutiny.
That, or monumentally stupid.
I don't think he is an Islamist sympathiser, nor monumentally stupid...so that leaves him as a guy who has been in the same vicinity previously as some bad eggs and whose campaign manager needs a b*ll*cking for some inadequate background checks.
Go Zac!
I think he is someone who lacks good judgment on an important issue.
Here is a statistic for those who were talking about UK companies and the number that trade in the rest of EU.
The divergence of interest between large and small businesses is critical to the Brexit debate. Here are two key figures to bear in mind. First, twice as many people work for SMEs as for big companies. Second, only 6 per cent of all UK firms do any business with the EU – but 100 per cent of them must apply 100 per cent of EU regulations.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
Mr. Taffys, you should still check, I've not paid much attention (although I have noticed the UN seems to think it may be illegal).
On his Blog, John Redwood notes there is some confusion on this and asks the PM for urgent clarification. I think we can expect a question in the house.
He will say "There will be no visa access for Turkish citizen, no ifs, no buts".
Those four fatal words at the end will let you all you need to know, it's becoming Cameron's "tell"
Dan Hannan MEPs just voted against a British attempt to exempt private ports from the EU's disastrous Ports Services Directive. https://t.co/62R3ZuNkT9
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
On that basis, you can have me - and my dress sense is definitely better than yours ( ) - plus you get elegant handbags and ruthlessness with City crooks.
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
"paymaster"?
That's surely on the "military-industrial complex" scale of CiF bonkersness?
Dan Hannan MEPs just voted against a British attempt to exempt private ports from the EU's disastrous Ports Services Directive. https://t.co/62R3ZuNkT9
Potentially quite a big story from the business angle, this.
Mr. Taffys, you should still check, I've not paid much attention (although I have noticed the UN seems to think it may be illegal).
On his Blog, John Redwood notes there is some confusion on this and asks the PM for urgent clarification. I think we can expect a question in the house.
He will say "There will be no visa access for Turkish citizen, no ifs, no buts".
Those four fatal words at the end will let you all you need to know, it's becoming Cameron's "tell"
most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course,
"Well I'm afraid he's at an even greater disadvantage in understanding economics: he's an economist."
How can it be good for a city that is already heavily segregated to have a Mayor that appeals only to a certain group and is abhorrent to so many others
The worst thing for London would be a left wing muslim or a right wing "islamaphobe"
Probably the best thing would be a non white Conservative.. not Winston Mckenzie
Trevor Phillips maybe
Trevor Phillips is probably a good shout. Someone who is respected on the left and does, from time to time, speak truth to power. I would vote for him if he supported Heathrow.
I'd love to vote for Zac, but his opposition to Heathrow expansion counts him out. I'll probably abstain.
Unfortunately there is no pro-Heathrow candidate and not voting for Zac is almost as bad as voting for Khan.
Both Zac and Sadiq are anti-LHR3 and opposed to Uber. Both very wrong positions in my view.
Zac is anti Uber???
I cannot - in all good conscience - vote for anyone opposed to both Uber and Terminal 3 a third runway at Heathrow.
People of PB.com. Nominate me for the mayoral position. I'm pro Heathrow, pro Uber, and not obsessed by Europe.
My dress is sense is better than TSE's, also.
I am being strongly urged to run to be either Mayor of Sheffield or as Mayor of Greater Manchester.
I'll leave London to you.
Better try Sheffield. Manchester voters don't vote Tory
As a general rule, they no longer vote Tory in Sheffield either, there's not a single Tory councillor in Sheffield.
What about the Sheffield district just over the Pennines? It's got Tory written all over it and what's more Tony Christie lives there!
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
"paymaster"?
That's surely on the "military-industrial complex" scale of CiF bonkersness?
Don't be silly. George Osborne headhunted and recruited him.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
Without a doubt the establishment is against Brexit. Not sure how valuable that is. They have proven to be behind many things that later turn out to be wrong.
That said. The idea that anyone can seriously argue that Brexit is not risky is absurd.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
Without a doubt the establishment is against Brexit. Not sure how valuable that is. They have proven to be behind many things that later turn out to be wrong.
That said. The idea that anyone can seriously argue that Brexit is not risky is absurd.
Staying in would be risky too, given the centralising instincts of Brussels.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Or is the EU simply going through the motions? Buys them some more time, whilst the refugee problem piles up in Turkey. Eventually the Turks will lose patience, and send the whole lot north.
It was mentioned in the speccie last week that they are playing "good guy" at the moment, to see what they can get in the way of handouts and promises, when that starts to look like it has run its course, they will see what they can get with blackmail instead.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
I think the plan is that they will be able to visit without a visa , benefits etc not included.
The problem is we have a piss-poor (approaching non-existent) record of chucking out people who comes as visitors and then decided they quite like it and want to stay without all that tedious mucking around applying for a visa.
You're quite possibly the most partisan poster on this website.
No, not at all. To take one topical example, I've defended Sadiq Khan in the past and said that I thought he was a good candidate. I now think I might have been wrong about that, but as always I was being as objective as I good be.
The thing is, there are a lot of very silly attacks being made against the government at the moment, and the Leave side in particular are terribly passionate, so a cool-headed response looks like partisanship.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Or is the EU simply going through the motions? Buys them some more time, whilst the refugee problem piles up in Turkey. Eventually the Turks will lose patience, and send the whole lot north.
It was mentioned in the speccie last week that they are playing "good guy" at the moment, to see what they can get in the way of handouts and promises, when that starts to look like it has run its course, they will see what they can get with blackmail instead.
They will hear visa free movement for 75m people from Turkey though.
My wife said on the radio this morning that somebody calculated if the Turks come at the same rate as the Poles that means 1.5m extra Turks in Britain.
This situation is getting completely out of control
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
Much as I would like to agree with you, I can't. Carney is nobody's poodle. He was a vastly successful Canadian central banker headhunted to lead the BoE. He's not even European.
His future career - he is rumoured to harbour ambitions in Canuck politics- depends on him being seen as a sober, perceptive judge of economic prospects and dangers. It doesn't benefit him to glibly trot out lies for Osborne. It would be positively harmful for him, if he is seen as as some marionette for foreign politicos.
I believe his assessment. That said, personally I am, as of this moment, still willing to risk the inevitable hit to the British economy, the City, London property prices, in return for freedom and greater prosperity in the long term.
But not many will see it my way. Carney will persuade.
I think your comments are more than fair and do you great credit
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
"paymaster"?
That's surely on the "military-industrial complex" scale of CiF bonkersness?
Don't be silly. George Osborne headhunted and recruited him.
hey! Don't call me silly; I'm a member of the europhile elite.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
Without a doubt the establishment is against Brexit. Not sure how valuable that is. They have proven to be behind many things that later turn out to be wrong.
That said. The idea that anyone can seriously argue that Brexit is not risky is absurd.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
George Osborne appointee backs Remain. Shock.
You will need to do better than that - if leave only shout conspiracy whenever something does not go their way they will lose
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Carney has an international reputation, it's risible to say he would trash his reputation and make a statement he didn't believe just to satisfy GO.
You're quite possibly the most partisan poster on this website.
No, not at all. To take one topical example, I've defended Sadiq Khan in the past and said that I thought he was a good candidate. I now think I might have been wrong about that, but as always I was being as objective as I good be.
The thing is, there are a lot of very silly attacks being made against the government at the moment, and the Leave side in particular are terribly passionate, so a cool-headed response looks like partisanship.
You're only cool-headed because David Cameron shoved your stupid head down the fucking EU toilet bowl and you came up spitting and frothing and saying Thankyou Sir, what a brilliant Deal you got, Sir.
Dave's "deal" is worse than that between Darth Vader and Lando Calrissian in The Empire Strikes Back.
They will hear visa free movement for 75m people from Turkey though.
My wife said on the radio this morning that somebody calculated if the Turks come at the same rate as the Poles that means 1.5m extra Turks in Britain.
This situation is getting completely out of control
Turkey will not be in the EU for years as I have already said and have had leavers agree with me that this is a red herring
So dull, the Democratic primary is way more interesting, never mind the GOP.
lol, very true
True. Still, there's always the Northern Ireland Assembly elections if we're short of a topic.
If you're lucky, I might do a thread on the various voting systems being used in the May elections.
Sunil J. Prasannan is calling for a total and complete shut-down of AV threads entering PB.com, until our forum's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!
None of the voting systems in May are AV, so you're safe.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Yes - They do not get visa free access to the UK - Furthermore any negotiations to join will take many years and that agreement to join has to be voted unanimously by all 28 and that is not going to happen anytime soon. On last nights thread several leavers accepted that it was not going to happen in the foreseable future
And yet they will get visa free travel starting in June (JUNE!!) with out any such votes. How many other "member-like" perks are they going to be offered on a similar basis ?
If Turkey gets bored with the sweeties in a few months and says, make it 2 years or we open the borders, is anyone going to say no, or will it be quietly waved through ?
Clearly Merkel is having a laugh arranging for a load of Turkish "tourists" to arrive in London in full glare of the cameras two weeks before the referendum.
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Yes - They do not get visa free access to the UK - Furthermore any negotiations to join will take many years and that agreement to join has to be voted unanimously by all 28 and that is not going to happen anytime soon. On last nights thread several leavers accepted that it was not going to happen in the foreseable future
And yet they will get visa free travel starting in June (JUNE!!) with out any such votes. How many other "member-like" perks are they going to be offered on a similar basis ?
If Turkey gets bored with the sweeties in a few months and says, make it 2 years or we open the borders, is anyone going to say no, or will it be quietly waved through ?
Clearly Merkel is having a laugh arranging for a load of Turkish "tourists" to arrive in London in full glare of the cameras two weeks before the referendum.
That said, personally I am, as of this moment, still willing to risk the inevitable hit to the British economy, the City, London property prices, in return for freedom and greater prosperity in the long term.
.
"To be free is better than to be unfree - always. Any politician who suggests the opposite should be treated as suspect." - Margaret Thatcher writing in "Statecraft" (2002).
"Well I'm afraid he's at an even greater disadvantage in understanding economics: he's an economist."
My view entirely! Although my favourite is:
"An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today."
or Samuelson, about the predictive power of stockmarket behaviour, who said that "Wall Street indexes predicted nine out of the last five recessions.."
Do the British people realise that Turkish membership of the EU is being accelerated? That 75 million Turks, and anybody who can get a Turkish passport, will soon be free to roam around Europe? claim benefits? free healthcare?
Again, am I missing something?
Yes - They do not get visa free access to the UK - Furthermore any negotiations to join will take many years and that agreement to join has to be voted unanimously by all 28 and that is not going to happen anytime soon. On last nights thread several leavers accepted that it was not going to happen in the foreseable future
And yet they will get visa free travel starting in June (JUNE!!) with out any such votes. How many other "member-like" perks are they going to be offered on a similar basis ?
If Turkey gets bored with the sweeties in a few months and says, make it 2 years or we open the borders, is anyone going to say no, or will it be quietly waved through ?
Clearly Merkel is having a laugh arranging for a load of Turkish "tourists" to arrive in London in full glare of the cameras two weeks before the referendum.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large. However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Re the Lord Lawson line about Mark Carney wanting a job at Goldman Sachs, I could be wrong but I suspect that as the former governor of both the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England, he would have little difficulty.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large. However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
I think Leave is finished and has virtually no chance. I've donated money and offered to help, and they've ignored me so far.
If that's the case then, rather than waste my time over the next 3 months, the best I can do is at least have some fun calling out the bullshit that will be repeated time and time again until the big day.
And we will deserve EVERYTHING we get if we vote to Remain.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Easy:
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Give it a rest it was poor the first time, now it is just repetitive and dull.
'Re the Lord Lawson line about Mark Carney wanting a job at Goldman Sachs, I could be wrong but I suspect that as the former governor of both the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England, he would have little difficulty.'
Re the Lord Lawson line about Mark Carney wanting a job at Goldman Sachs, I could be wrong but I suspect that as the former governor of both the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England, he would have little difficulty.
Yes - but it is an attack on Mark Carney's integrity that demeans Lawson and the leave campaign
I think Remain are at least 80% likely to win at the moment.
Important to note that 80% does not equal 100% likely, but I'm struggling to see any path for Leave to win, nor any signs of improvement around the corner.
Immigration, immigration, immigration.
Or terrorism
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs.
Mark Carney's evidence to the select committee has moved me from 60/40 remain to 100% remain. It was a devastating critic to the leave campaign and absolutely convinced me that the Country's well being would be a threat in the event of leave vote. It was the kind of authoritative and independent (Norman Smith, BBC words) anaysis I was seeking
George Osborne appointee backs Remain. Shock.
You will need to do better than that - if leave only shout conspiracy whenever something does not go their way they will lose
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Carney has an international reputation, it's risible to say he would trash his reputation and make a statement he didn't believe just to satisfy GO.
He's clever enough to have crunched the numbers.
In the very unlikely we did Leave, when it wasn't a disaster, which it wouldn't be, he'd be in a company of thousands and would be very unlikely to personally suffer from it.
Just like the mass herding pollsters after GE2015.
Oh, there's no conspiracy. It's perfectly transparent and predictable.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
Yes, of course they have, it probably went something like this:
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
I despise everything you say, think and believe about the referendum, and I am convinced the British people will come to regret their probable REMAIN vote; I also think your beloved Cameron and Osborne will pay a grievous political price for their lies and ineptitude.
Good.
HOWEVER I have to accept that Carney is a very serious, intelligent voice, with no obvious need to trot out propaganda for the europhile elite. His concise and eloquent intervention is a damaging blow to LEAVE.
His employee and paymaster is the evidence.
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
His employer is only evidence if he were unable to gain better employment elsewhere should Osborne sack him on political grounds. I doubt that to be the case. Indeed, I'm quite sure he could earn a lot more elsewhere - it's one of the main incentives to do a good job.
By contrast, were Osborne to sack him (assuming he can?), that would undermine the BoE's independence, make it far harder to recruit a replacement and bring Osborne's judgement into serious doubt.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Easy:
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Patriotism and intelligence have rarely had much to do with each other.
They will hear visa free movement for 75m people from Turkey though.
My wife said on the radio this morning that somebody calculated if the Turks come at the same rate as the Poles that means 1.5m extra Turks in Britain.
This situation is getting completely out of control
Turkey will not be in the EU for years as I have already said and have had leavers agree with me that this is a red herring
Somalia is not in the EU either. Remind me how many people we have (illegally) in the country from there.
Turks will get 90 day visa free travel, some might decide to go home at the end if we are lucky, although the rate their country is filling up with scroungers economic migrants they might decide not to bother.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Easy:
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Give it a rest it was poor the first time, now it is just repetitive and dull.
On the contrary:
Rob C said: "It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind."
"Believe in BRITAIN, be LEAVE!" fits the bill, IMHO.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Sorry, but that simply won't wash. You think the BBC and the TUC are at the beck and call of George Osborne? And the G20? And the big international banks? That's just crazy. You might have a better argument if you claimed that the 'establishment' is naturally risk averse, but saying that all these different, largely completely independent, people and institutions, from many different countries, have somehow been nobbled is out with the fairies.
What's more, you can discount every one of those, and look only at academics and think-tanks, and you'll get the same response. There's a good selection here:
Examples from that article of independent economists warning about at least short/medium term risks: Adam Posen, president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, Nicholas Barr, Professor of Public Economics, LSE, Ray Barrell, Professor, Brunel University and VA Research, Charles Bean, Professor of Economics, London School of Economics, Alan Budd, former MPC member, Jagjit Chadha, Professor of Economics, University of Kent, David Cobham, Professor of economics, Heriot-Watt University, Diane Coyle, Professor of economics, University of Manchester, Wouter Den Haan, professor of economics, London School of Economics, Michael Devereux, Professor, Oxford university, Martin Ellison, Professor of Economics, University of Oxford, Jonathan Haskel, Professor of Economics, Imperial College Business School, Ethan Ilzetzki, Lecturer in Economics, London School of Economics, Chris Martin, Professor of Economics, University of Bath
Etc etc etc
They vary, as economists always do, in their views, but they nearly all seem to be Osborne stooges along with Mark Carney and the G20.
As I say, they might be wrong. But I'm not asking anyone to stick their hands over their ears - that seems to be entirely the Leave side's reaction. And people have the nerve to accuse me of being partisan!
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
No, I'm neither naive not partisan. But you are coming across as wilfully blind, unable to accept the obvious, which is that the simplest explanation fits the facts: that most economists (not all, of course, but the overwhelming majority) think Brexit is highly risky for the economy, certainly in the short to medium term, and, depending on the final deal, possibly damaging in the long term. They might not be right, of course, but they are giving their honest opinions.
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
No, you're the one that's wilfully blind. Your idea that they are giving their 'honest' opinions is touchingly naive.
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
Even as a Remainer I agree with you here by and large However instead of whingeing why doesn't Leave gets its act together? It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind. If it can't do this then as others have said it doesn't deserve to win.
Easy:
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
Patriotism and intelligence have rarely had much to do with each other.
Believe in BRUSSELS? Nah, doesn't have the same ring to it
Comments
I'll leave London to you.
I'd urge you to consider the long term interests of the UK, which are at odds with the integration drive of the eurozone, which also has a critical mass when it comes to QMV.
Mr. Eagles, if you run for Manchester, could you change your PB username to Judas?
Again, am I missing something?
Britain’s young men are falling further and further behind. Does anyone care? My blog: https://t.co/6VhfRedtnF https://t.co/ScvN2c0yIl
We know the economic impacts of Brexit will be marginal simply because so many (genuinely) independent think tanks and studies have shown so.
You think Osborne and Carney haven't had a conversation about this?
One night, lots of them were smashed off. I think Alcibiades was the prime suspect.
"Mark, what do you think the economic consequences of Brexit would be?"
"Actually, George, I think Brexit could be a disaster for the UK. At the very least it's very high risk. Do you really need to have this referendum? It could plunge the UK back into recession."
"Yes, the referendum is a political necessity, I'm afraid. Absolutely no way of avoiding it."
Mr. Eagles, you'll need a nickname, then. Pinkrose, if you go for Manchester.
Your naivety or blind partisan loyalty (you pick which - you're not stupid) is touching.
I do however share your pessimism. Mark Carney didn't help today. He is one of the few neutral voices I respect, and he shunted me somewhat back to REMAIN.
That said I'm still 65% LEAVE. But he will sway DKs
Looks like it's now Trump v Cruz.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-republican-party-decides-to-settle/472668/?utm_source=web&utm_medium=twitter
The fact his intervention looks so objective just goes to show how well he is at executing His master's wishes.
The divergence of interest between large and small businesses is critical to the Brexit debate. Here are two key figures to bear in mind. First, twice as many people work for SMEs as for big companies. Second, only 6 per cent of all UK firms do any business with the EU – but 100 per cent of them must apply 100 per cent of EU regulations.
The complete article (by D Hannan) is at:
http://capx.co/britains-obsolescent-conglomerates-are-backing-remain/
But by all means add Mark Carney to the ever-lengthening list of Osborne stooges if it makes you feel better. After all, if you believe that all 19 of the other G20 finance ministers are Osborne stooges, I don't suppose adding Mark Carney to the list is a big step.
Those four fatal words at the end will let you all you need to know, it's becoming Cameron's "tell"
MEPs just voted against a British attempt to exempt private ports from the EU's disastrous Ports Services Directive. https://t.co/62R3ZuNkT9
What's not to love?
That's surely on the "military-industrial complex" scale of CiF bonkersness?
ironTurkish Delight guarantee?But I still think it's going to be bad for us in the long term if we remain shackled to the EU.
Britain shrugs it shoulders and says, "who?"
They will hear visa free movement for 75m people from Turkey though.
That said. The idea that anyone can seriously argue that Brexit is not risky is absurd.
The thing is, there are a lot of very silly attacks being made against the government at the moment, and the Leave side in particular are terribly passionate, so a cool-headed response looks like partisanship.
This situation is getting completely out of control
"An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today."
The Government has lined up full square behind Remain and is putting the full resources of its machine, and its domestic establishment contacts and international network, into backing its position.
That will include all G20 leaders, all the EU member states, the CBI, the big banks, the BoE, the BCC, the TUC, the BBC and any other part of it you care to mention.
Where do you think all the Government effort has been going the last few months? Surely, you're not inept enough to think all that energy went into the negotiation?
What it shows is just how hard it is to beat the establishment. And how easily some are convinced by it.
Nothing more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Carney
If Turkey gets bored with the sweeties in a few months and says, make it 2 years or we open the borders, is anyone going to say no, or will it be quietly waved through ?
Clearly Merkel is having a laugh arranging for a load of Turkish "tourists" to arrive in London in full glare of the cameras two weeks before the referendum.
Movement says it will mobilise in marginal council seats in May and, if Labour does badly, look to see off any challengers
http://gu.com/p/4hcj6?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
- Margaret Thatcher writing in "Statecraft" (2002).
Believe in BRITAIN!
Be LEAVE!
In contrast to an accountant "Someone that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
If that's the case then, rather than waste my time over the next 3 months, the best I can do is at least have some fun calling out the bullshit that will be repeated time and time again until the big day.
And we will deserve EVERYTHING we get if we vote to Remain.
Everything.
He worked there for years already...
In the very unlikely we did Leave, when it wasn't a disaster, which it wouldn't be, he'd be in a company of thousands and would be very unlikely to personally suffer from it.
Just like the mass herding pollsters after GE2015.
By contrast, were Osborne to sack him (assuming he can?), that would undermine the BoE's independence, make it far harder to recruit a replacement and bring Osborne's judgement into serious doubt.
The trump cards are in Carney's hand.
Turks will get 90 day visa free travel, some might decide to go home at the end if we are lucky, although the rate their country is filling up with scroungers economic migrants they might decide not to bother.
Rob C said: "It needs a single powerful message that all its squabbling factions even the miserable Farage can unite behind."
"Believe in BRITAIN, be LEAVE!" fits the bill, IMHO.
Ahem.
What's more, you can discount every one of those, and look only at academics and think-tanks, and you'll get the same response. There's a good selection here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a86ab36-afbe-11e5-b955-1a1d298b6250.html#axzz42KXbOlxP
(Or Google "economists forecasts Brexit").
Examples from that article of independent economists warning about at least short/medium term risks: Adam Posen, president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, Nicholas Barr, Professor of Public Economics, LSE, Ray Barrell, Professor, Brunel University and VA Research, Charles Bean, Professor of Economics, London School of Economics, Alan Budd, former MPC member, Jagjit Chadha, Professor of Economics, University of Kent, David Cobham, Professor of economics, Heriot-Watt University, Diane Coyle, Professor of economics, University of Manchester, Wouter Den Haan, professor of economics, London School of Economics, Michael Devereux, Professor, Oxford university, Martin Ellison, Professor of Economics, University of Oxford, Jonathan Haskel, Professor of Economics, Imperial College Business School, Ethan Ilzetzki, Lecturer in Economics, London School of Economics, Chris Martin, Professor of Economics, University of Bath
Etc etc etc
They vary, as economists always do, in their views, but they nearly all seem to be Osborne stooges along with Mark Carney and the G20.
As I say, they might be wrong. But I'm not asking anyone to stick their hands over their ears - that seems to be entirely the Leave side's reaction. And people have the nerve to accuse me of being partisan!