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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More polling’s due out on Corbyn’s failure with the most cr

SystemSystem Posts: 11,689
edited March 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More polling’s due out on Corbyn’s failure with the most crucial voting group of all – older women

Last night I Tweeted the above panel from new YouGov polling. It shows how the new leader is struggling to retain the backing of those who voted for the party in the general election and the gender breakdown

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    First.....Again!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    It was the auld wifies who did for SINDYREF (and may yet do for REMAIN unless the REMAINIANS can get their young supporters out from behind their mobile phones and laptops and into the polling booths).....there is a distinct generational thing too - these women had mothers or grandmothers who didn't have a vote, so take their voting very seriously as a civic duty - I remember asking my grandmother if she was going to vote, and she looked at me as if I'd grown two heads.....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    Talking of which....

    Women who campaign for Britain to leave the European Union are like the Suffragettes because they are "fighting for our democratic freedom", a female Cabinet minister will say today.

    Priti Patel, the employment minister, will say on Tuesday that Emmeline Pankhurst and the other Suffragettes did not fight for the right to vote to see "those decisions surrendered to the EU's undemocratic institutions and political elite".


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12186842/Women-who-campaign-for-a-Brexit-are-like-Suffragettes-Priti-Patel-says.html
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2016
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Project TITTER in full swing ....
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited March 2016
    Just noticed the subliminal message from PB.

    When you go to the comment box you are instructed to LEAVE a comment. Why not say enter a comment that will REMAIN?

    This proves PB is an agent for leave.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760
    philiph said:


    This proves PB is an agent for leave.

    The best wind up in SINDYREF was when we managed to persuade a NAT that only Unionists could edit their posts......
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Corbynists seem to be powered by a political equivalent to transcendental levitation. Newton's laws will assert themselves, painfully I think.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Or it could be INrageous.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Two ruthlessly ambitious politicians soil themselves in one day.

    Separated by 5000 miles but not much else
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,302
    Toms said:

    Corbynists seem to be powered by a political equivalent to transcendental levitation. Newton's laws will assert themselves, painfully I think.

    The Wile E. Coyotes of politics. The moment of realisation will doubtless be delayed for a while. But when they do finally realise they are standing over a canyon, it is unlikely they will walk away from the resulting crash.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    JackW said:
    We await the howls of protest from the usual suspects.
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,080
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/aei-world-forum-donald-trump_us_56ddbd38e4b0ffe6f8ea125d

    Republican elite now turning to Tim Cook and Larry Page to stop Trump.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    In Mike's little snippet from Yougov, the number of women calling for Jezza to go either now or later is very little different from men. The major part of the difference is the % saying don't know, which is higher in women. I wouldn't read too much into this as DK's are higher in females generally across the board.

    Not much evidence of Tories for Corbyn or Kippers for Corbyn either.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    ydoethur said:

    Toms said:

    Corbynists seem to be powered by a political equivalent to transcendental levitation. Newton's laws will assert themselves, painfully I think.

    The Wile E. Coyotes of politics. The moment of realisation will doubtless be delayed for a while. But when they do finally realise they are standing over a canyon, it is unlikely they will walk away from the resulting crash.
    Wile E Coyote always does. Never catches road runner though. Pretty robust things, political parties.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,010

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/aei-world-forum-donald-trump_us_56ddbd38e4b0ffe6f8ea125d

    Republican elite now turning to Tim Cook and Larry Page to stop Trump.

    A gay outsourcer and the son of an immigrant...
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2016

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Dont be silly. Did you hear Boris on Marr? This is hypocrisy of the highest order!
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2016
    I am beginning to think that REMAIN will win, not necessarily because an argument is won, because both sides are lying to the public, but because of who is in the respective sides and how they are saying things. the leave campaign seems to get more desperate by the day, and I have all but switched off. I was going to vote remain anyway, but the leave side isn't engaging at all... in fact I think they are largely preaching to the already converted..
  • Options

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    BBC headline is very misleading. Sloppy bias for REMAIN. Typical.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    I am beginning to think that REMAIN will win, not necessarily because an argument is won, because both sides are lying to the public, but because of who is in the respective sides and how they are saying things. the leave campaign seems to get more desperate by the day, and I have all but switched off. I was going to vote remain anyway, but the leave side isn't engaging at all... in fact I think they are largely preaching to the already converted..

    You mean you weren't convinced IDS Farage Gove and Galloway?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PeterMannionMP: Boris Johnson attacks all those 'crushing dissent' on #Euref > Mayor's staff queue up to leak memo demanding they publicly back him. Ouch.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.
    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,008
    What would happen if the London Assembly debated the issue and the majority of the members agreed that the interests of the city (note lower-case c) of London required that the UK REMAIN?
    Could the officials then publicaly support Remain?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The paucity of positive reasons to vote Remain is the most conspicuous gap.

    I look forward to reading a thread for their case that is aspirational, not fearful.

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    RodCrosby said:
    So not going to be his VP pick then.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.

    "Johnson said: “It is absolutely scandalous that John Longworth has been forced to step aside.

    “This is a man who reached the conclusion – after long reflection and a lifetime’s experience of business – that it would be better to vote Leave.

    “His verdict reflects the reality – that the EU has changed out of all recognition from the Common Market that this country joined.

    “He speaks for the many small- and medium-sized businesses – the lifeblood of the economy – who cannot understand why they should comply with more and more regulation, over which this country has no democratic control."
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268
    His spokesman said the ruling applied only to those on "official business".

    Mr Johnson was "relaxed" about members of his team campaigning on either side in a personal capacity, the spokesman added.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,010
    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    There is a council in East London that is for "Out"
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
    While Cameron says that they can do the same, and while in a public capacity too.
  • Options
    WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    At all events, City Hall's position is going to change well before the Referendum.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    The City Hall position seems to be that nobody is permitted to publically speak against the Dear Leader.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    What would happen if the London Assembly debated the issue and the majority of the members agreed that the interests of the city (note lower-case c) of London required that the UK REMAIN?
    Could the officials then publicaly support Remain?

    Probably not, because it would not further Boris's personal ambition.

    Considering he's supposed to be clever, he set himself a rather big trap with his earlier reported comments. Whether fair or not, this story does not look good.

    As for Boris himself: it's easy to make the mistake of assuming that because someone is eloquent, or can write well, that what they say or write is worth listening to. Although I agree with him on some issues, and his writing style can be persuasive, I sometimes see a paucity of knowledge behind his words.

    Is Boris just an empty shell beyond presentation?

    Although I would say that, as I can neither speak eloquently or write well. I'll leave it to others to decide whether what I write is worth reading. ;)
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,467

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
    While Cameron says that they can do the same, and while in a public capacity too.
    But is on the blower getting people suspended the minute a prominent businessman does just that.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Clearly irony not your strong suit.

    Cameron is allowing LEAVErs to campaign OPENLY - a privilege Boris is denying his staff.....
  • Options
    NorfolkTilIDieNorfolkTilIDie Posts: 1,268

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
    While Cameron says that they can do the same, and while in a public capacity too.
    No, they can't do it in a public capacity. IDS and Patel etc can't run their departments to make policy to encourage a Leave vote. In fact Cameron stopped them even receiving documents about the EU in their departments, something Boris couldn't do.

    And speaking out in a private capacity wasn't even allowed for a year or so.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.

    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe

    Is there any point in quoting large swathes of some obscure persons opinion on this blog? Couldn't he come on himself if he has something to say?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Wasn't the BCC official position 'neutrality which the chairman publicly chose to challenge?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    It is not exactly on a par with nuclear free councils. The Mayor is elected to represent London and his administration is entitled to have a view on what is in London's best interests.

    I find the idea that this is likely to move a measurable number of votes somewhat unlikely.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited March 2016
    Donald TrumpTusk: The "days of illegal migration to Europe are over", says the EU

    LOL
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
    While Cameron says that they can do the same, and while in a public capacity too.
    But is on the blower getting people suspended the minute a prominent businessman does just that.
    Assertion is not evidence.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,467
    I'm oddly quite happy that Boris is coming under personal attack. I'm hoping it spurs him on to take the gloves off.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    It was the auld wifies who did for SINDYREF (and may yet do for REMAIN unless the REMAINIANS can get their young supporters out from behind their mobile phones and laptops and into the polling booths).....there is a distinct generational thing too - these women had mothers or grandmothers who didn't have a vote, so take their voting very seriously as a civic duty - I remember asking my grandmother if she was going to vote, and she looked at me as if I'd grown two heads.....

    Women actually tend to be slightly more for Remain than men
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,467
    felix said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    Boris is a good match for Farage. Neither seem able to tolerate workers who do not participate in the personality cult.
    Given that Cameron demanded much more restrictive terms for those on other side, I guess this applies to Cameron too then?? Or is this only a criticism that can ever be held towards Leavers??
    Except it isn't true. Cameron has permitted govt ministers to oppose Remain publically, while Boris (according to the email) is gagging opponents publically.

    Not that the court politics of the Tories bother me. The sooner they break up into warring gangs the sooner the whole government collapses. It is a pity though that Corbyn couldn't organise a bunfight in a bakery and so will not take advantage. There really needs to be a summer Labour leadership contest.
    Read the article. Johnson is openly saying loud and clear they can back Remain in personal capacity.
    While Cameron says that they can do the same, and while in a public capacity too.
    But is on the blower getting people suspended the minute a prominent businessman does just that.
    Assertion is not evidence.
    No denial is a strong signifier.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.
    But.....the BCC Chair wasn't sacked - he was suspended, then resigned.....

    I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Can anyone summarise the proposed Turkey deal?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,760

    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    The City Hall position seems to be that nobody is permitted to publically speak against the Dear Leader.
    The City Hall Government position seems to be that nobody is permitted to publically speak against the Dear Leader.

    Imagine the howls of outrage!
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Red Box
    Revealed: How Corbyn can win the election (he just needs ALL Nats, Greens and Lib Dems) https://t.co/Rzasmu4V2q https://t.co/whbNFCr8L2
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rcs1000 said:

    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    There is a council in East London that is for "Out"
    Bromley, too. There's some talk that Wandsworth may vote Leave, as well.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    What would happen if the London Assembly debated the issue and the majority of the members agreed that the interests of the city (note lower-case c) of London required that the UK REMAIN?
    Could the officials then publicaly support Remain?

    Probably not, because it would not further Boris's personal ambition.

    Considering he's supposed to be clever, he set himself a rather big trap with his earlier reported comments. Whether fair or not, this story does not look good.

    As for Boris himself: it's easy to make the mistake of assuming that because someone is eloquent, or can write well, that what they say or write is worth listening to. Although I agree with him on some issues, and his writing style can be persuasive, I sometimes see a paucity of knowledge behind his words.

    Is Boris just an empty shell beyond presentation?

    Although I would say that, as I can neither speak eloquently or write well. I'll leave it to others to decide whether what I write is worth reading. ;)
    I do wonder to what extent the Dear Mayor consulted the people and businesses of London before deciding that his own political ambitions were more important than the small aspect of democracy?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    On topic the lack of relevance of Corbyn to the issue of the day or indeed any issue at all recently has been remarkable. Even Ed had a far higher profile and his Delphic mutterings were anxiously scanned and parsed to ascertain if they contained a hint of the secret master plan.

    We have a government which is suddenly perceived as split as the Labour party thanks to the EU. We have cabinet ministers being rude about each other and the PM on a daily basis in the media. We have an economy that has slowed putting immense pressure on the public spending targets which were already ambitious. And yet we see no sign of a Labour recovery. No sign at all. The risk for Labour must surely be that if the Tories can patch things up again after June (and it is a bit of an if) they will be out of sight.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Can anyone summarise the proposed Turkey deal?

    Yes. Why don't you have a go yourself first though.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,807
    Things are bad for Cameron - not even a chance for all to come together and discuss how bad Corbyn is will distract from internal Tory battles at present it seems.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    By former LD MP Paul Keetch
    At the core of our principles lies the belief that power should be held as close as possible to individuals and their communities and that those who wield that power should be accountable to it.

    In the European Union, true power is held behind closed doors in the Council of Ministers, who make decisions away from the cameras and above the heads of voters. How can I continually advocate the devolution of power from Whitehall to local government, while applauding the transfer of power from our flawed but elected parliament to an unelected and unaccountable EU bureaucracy?
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/think-that-if-you-are-liberal-you-should-vote-to-stay-in-the-eu-think-again-a6916921.html
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    Pulpstar said:

    Donald TrumpTusk: The "days of illegal migration to Europe are over", says the EU

    LOL

    Tell me he has not promised to get it down to the hundreds of thousands for goodness sake.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    Can anyone summarise the proposed Turkey deal?

    This seems a reasonable summation:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35749837

    Some parts seem reasonable, others less so IMO.

    We still need action against the people smugglers: my suggestion is for the UN to create a special court to try the smugglers, and try to get not just the people on the ground, but the people higher up in the organisations as well.

    People smuggling is an evil crime that exploits peoples' hardship.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,807
    DavidL said:

    On topic the lack of relevance of Corbyn to the issue of the day or indeed any issue at all recently has been remarkable. Even Ed had a far higher profile and his Delphic mutterings were anxiously scanned and parsed to ascertain if they contained a hint of the secret master plan.

    We have a government which is suddenly perceived as split as the Labour party thanks to the EU. We have cabinet ministers being rude about each other and the PM on a daily basis in the media. We have an economy that has slowed putting immense pressure on the public spending targets which were already ambitious. And yet we see no sign of a Labour recovery. No sign at all. The risk for Labour must surely be that if the Tories can patch things up again after June (and it is a bit of an if) they will be out of sight.

    So they'll be fine then I guess.

    I like the use of ambitious on the public spending targets - I presume you're not using in the politician's sense, meaning unachievable but pretending it is,
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.

    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe

    Behind the rhetoric, is there any evidence for this?

    The EU is the political manifestation of Europe. There is no alternative. People might not like what the EU looks like but that is a different point. The great majority of Europe's countries are eitherin the EU or want to be. This is, across the continent, not simply a practical policy of trade but an assertion of shared values.

    On democracy, certainly it could be more democratic but objectively, is it any less democratic than, say, the UK government? The EP is involved in most legislation and EU member governments form a second tier. What exactly is it that O'Neill wants?
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    So the EU are bribing Turkey to keep out swarms of unwanted immigrants, all sounds a bit racist to me.

    The Remainers on here are pro freedom of movement as am I, I'm surprised they support an organisation that is so blatantly xenophobic.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,320
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic the lack of relevance of Corbyn to the issue of the day or indeed any issue at all recently has been remarkable. Even Ed had a far higher profile and his Delphic mutterings were anxiously scanned and parsed to ascertain if they contained a hint of the secret master plan.

    We have a government which is suddenly perceived as split as the Labour party thanks to the EU. We have cabinet ministers being rude about each other and the PM on a daily basis in the media. We have an economy that has slowed putting immense pressure on the public spending targets which were already ambitious. And yet we see no sign of a Labour recovery. No sign at all. The risk for Labour must surely be that if the Tories can patch things up again after June (and it is a bit of an if) they will be out of sight.

    So they'll be fine then I guess.

    I like the use of ambitious on the public spending targets - I presume you're not using in the politician's sense, meaning unachievable but pretending it is,
    You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.

    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe
    Behind the rhetoric, is there any evidence for this?

    The EU is the political manifestation of Europe. There is no alternative. People might not like what the EU looks like but that is a different point. The great majority of Europe's countries are eitherin the EU or want to be. This is, across the continent, not simply a practical policy of trade but an assertion of shared values.

    On democracy, certainly it could be more democratic but objectively, is it any less democratic than, say, the UK government? The EP is involved in most legislation and EU member governments form a second tier. What exactly is it that O'Neill wants?

    Of course there's an alternative, there is always an alternative.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,807
    edited March 2016

    Wanderer said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    It seems a little absurd for City Hall to have an official position on EU membership. It's only a local government institution in the end. Should I expect my county council to have an official position?
    The City Hall position seems to be that nobody is permitted to publically speak against the Dear Leader.
    The City Hall Government position seems to be that nobody is permitted to publically speak against the Dear Leader.

    Imagine the howls of outrage!
    I could have sworn I saw some serving cabinet ministers implicitly but publicly accuse the PM and government of risking our safety and security by remaining in the eu and vice versa,

    Still, I approve a commentt made the other day that each day spent whining about unfairness is a day less to convince people, so maybe flagging g up the Boris contradiction is a good thing as remain are whining?
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That's jolly passive aggressive for 8am.
    matt said:

    Can anyone summarise the proposed Turkey deal?

    Yes. Why don't you have a go yourself first though.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,988
    Good morning, everyone.

    It is odd just how little is heard from Labour over the referendum. Has the Shadow Cabinet been locked in a basement?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Democratic prediction for this evening:

    Michigan: Hillary 75 Bernie 55
    Mississippi: Clinton 28 Sanders 8
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    The chances of a Tory majority or a hung parliament are probably now more dependent on EU ref and the size of any potential increase in the UKIP vote, especially after a narrow Remain, than anything Labour does now
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    HYUFD said:

    The chances of a Tory majority or a hung parliament are probably now more dependent on EU ref and the size of any potential increase in the UKIP vote, especially after a narrow Remain, than anything Labour does now

    The Ukip vote won't rise under any circumstances.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Is it now compulsory to claim any politician you don't like has a 'women problem'? I seem to have heard it on here about almost every major figure
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    So the EU are bribing Turkey to keep out swarms of unwanted immigrants, all sounds a bit racist to me.

    The Remainers on here are pro freedom of movement as am I, I'm surprised they support an organisation that is so blatantly xenophobic.

    It's hardly a bribe though, is it? Turkey has spent billions over the last five years housing up to two million refugees, mainly from Syria and Iraq. Some estimates have this cost at around 8 billion dollars, on top of which are the other costs of the conflict to the country. It is also an ongoing cost to them, both fiscally and socially.

    If we were in that situation, we'd be pleading the international community for help as well. And we're a much richer economy.

    But we need to be doing more to tackle the people and organisations behind the people smuggling. Even if they lead to significant personages in surrounding countries.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    @Morris_Dancer Saw this and thought of you

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2014/03/the-romans-ruled-an-age-ago-but-they-are-very-much-alive-in-modern-culture.html
    I’ve recently been reading my good friend Dr Lee Rotherham’s latest book, The Discerning Barbarian’s Guidebook to Roman Britain. It’s well worth picking up – better known to readers of this site as an expert in the modern day “non-imperial empire“, the EU, Lee’s academic background lies in history and archaeology.
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Thanks, it's being spun many ways and I can't quite grasp what it really means beyond the headlines.

    Can anyone summarise the proposed Turkey deal?

    This seems a reasonable summation:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35749837

    Some parts seem reasonable, others less so IMO.

    We still need action against the people smugglers: my suggestion is for the UN to create a special court to try the smugglers, and try to get not just the people on the ground, but the people higher up in the organisations as well.

    People smuggling is an evil crime that exploits peoples' hardship.
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    So the EU are bribing Turkey to keep out swarms of unwanted immigrants, all sounds a bit racist to me.

    The Remainers on here are pro freedom of movement as am I, I'm surprised they support an organisation that is so blatantly xenophobic.

    It's hardly a bribe though, is it? Turkey has spent billions over the last five years housing up to two million refugees, mainly from Syria and Iraq. Some estimates have this cost at around 8 billion dollars, on top of which are the other costs of the conflict to the country. It is also an ongoing cost to them, both fiscally and socially.

    If we were in that situation, we'd be pleading the international community for help as well. And we're a much richer economy.

    But we need to be doing more to tackle the people and organisations behind the people smuggling. Even if they lead to significant personages in surrounding countries.
    Bribe might be strong, but the fact is the EU is paying Turkey so it doesn't have to deal with them.

    I'm interested to hear what those espousing freedom of movement have to say. Very little I suspect.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Good morning, everyone.

    It is odd just how little is heard from Labour over the referendum. Has the Shadow Cabinet been locked in a basement?

    I'm wondering whether Labour in its new guise has much support anymore. Most people I know have given up on them.

    Supporters had barely got over the embarrassment of Ed and then along comes Corbyn. I'm hopeful that the Libs might offer something. I heard Norman Lamb talking about cannabis this morning. I know it's trivial but from small acorns....
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.
    But.....the BCC Chair wasn't sacked - he was suspended, then resigned.....

    I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid
    In football management they call this "leaving by mutual consent".

    It means "jumped before he was pushed".
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well worth reading the whole article, I thought it was excellent.

    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.

    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe
    Behind the rhetoric, is there any evidence for this?

    The EU is the political manifestation of Europe. There is no alternative. People might not like what the EU looks like but that is a different point. The great majority of Europe's countries are eitherin the EU or want to be. This is, across the continent, not simply a practical policy of trade but an assertion of shared values.

    On democracy, certainly it could be more democratic but objectively, is it any less democratic than, say, the UK government? The EP is involved in most legislation and EU member governments form a second tier. What exactly is it that O'Neill wants?
    Of course there's an alternative, there is always an alternative.

  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    runnymede said:

    Is it now compulsory to claim any politician you don't like has a 'women problem'? I seem to have heard it on here about almost every major figure

    It's PB's way of marking International Women's Day
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,598
    edited March 2016
    >It's PB's way of marking International Women's Day

    I wonder whether anyone in Parliament or the media is going start talking about toilets, as some of the feminists did when men started to discuss depression and suicide on International Men's Day.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,807
    Roger said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    It is odd just how little is heard from Labour over the referendum. Has the Shadow Cabinet been locked in a basement?

    I'm wondering whether Labour in its new guise has much support anymore. Most people I know have given up on them.

    Supporters had barely got over the embarrassment of Ed and then along comes Corbyn. I'm hopeful that the Libs might offer something. I heard Norman Lamb talking about cannabis this morning. I know it's trivial but from small acorns....
    Labour has millions is supported even now, with divided Tories to fight - the future may not be that bleak depending how long Corbyn is in place.

    It would be better if the LDs rise again though - good to have more viable options, and even though they pushed side the LDs for runner up in many places in the sw, I cannot see thevtories under pressure from labour here, and not sure if UKIP can manage it.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited March 2016

    HYUFD said:

    The chances of a Tory majority or a hung parliament are probably now more dependent on EU ref and the size of any potential increase in the UKIP vote, especially after a narrow Remain, than anything Labour does now

    The Ukip vote won't rise under any circumstances.
    If it is a narrow Remain it almost certainly will, there are bound to be Leave voters shifting to UKIP especially from the Tories if not to the same extent as Yes voters went to the SNP
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'I heard Norman Lamb talking about cannabis this morning. I know it's trivial but from small acorns'

    It's non-trivial for the 3-4% of the voters the Lib Dems are trying to hold on to perhaps :)
  • Options
    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Or in common palance 'being paid to go away'

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!

    How dare a publicly elected REMAIN LEAVE official use his office to stop his staff speaking out on behalf of LEAVE REMAIN...?

    I expect we'll never hear the end of it from the LEAVErs REMAINians
    Did you even bother to read the story? They are being allowed to speak out openly in a private capacity, which is more than Cameron allowed for months.
    Lol - Boris was always more of a liability and the smart 'leavers' knew it.
    He hasn't done anything other tha have City Hall's official position be for Leave. In the same way the Govt has an official position for Remain and no one on Leave side has criticised that as being unfair. A claim of hypocrisy is either people not being very bright or being disingenuous.

    Hypocrisy would be is Boris forced all Remain members to not speak out for months on end, threatened their careers or denied them official documents. None of that has happened.
    Boris says treatment of BCC chief SCANDALOUS!

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/06/boris-johnson-scandalous-suspending-bcc-chief-eu-referendum-remarks
    Has Boris sacked anyone for espousing their personal opinion?? I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid.
    But.....the BCC Chair wasn't sacked - he was suspended, then resigned.....

    I've come to conclusion some people on here are just playing dumb is pretending this is equivalent, because I refuse to believe anyone capable of using a computer can be this stupid
    In football management they call this "leaving by mutual consent".

    It means "jumped before he was pushed".
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Well worth reading the whole article, I thought it was excellent.

    As ever, Brendan O'Neill nails it.

    The Stay campaign’s habit of conflating ‘Europe’ and ‘the EU’ means that those who are anti-EU can be easily depicted as anti-Europe, as xenophobic or nationalistic. These people’s political outlook — their dislike of the way Brussels can impose its writ on nation states — is reduced to a prejudiced outlook, a simple case of being anti-Europe. Their politics is pathologised, turned from opposition to a political system into opposition to a whole continent and its cultures and peoples.

    ...The true instinct behind the Brussels machine is not to bring Europe together. It is to absolve national governments of the burden of having to consult us, the plebs, about important political and social matters, in favour of allowing various experts and cliques in Brussels to discuss and shape such matters on our behalf. The EU’s fuel is not cosmopolitanism — it’s democracy-dodging.
    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/for-europe-against-the-eu/18102#.Vt5-Q0mnxTe
    Behind the rhetoric, is there any evidence for this?

    The EU is the political manifestation of Europe. There is no alternative. People might not like what the EU looks like but that is a different point. The great majority of Europe's countries are eitherin the EU or want to be. This is, across the continent, not simply a practical policy of trade but an assertion of shared values.

    On democracy, certainly it could be more democratic but objectively, is it any less democratic than, say, the UK government? The EP is involved in most legislation and EU member governments form a second tier. What exactly is it that O'Neill wants?
    Of course there's an alternative, there is always an alternative.


    I will, its the resignation of no alternative that terrifies me, strengthens my belief that ever closer union is inevitable. Well it is if we vote Remain and I'm genuinely surprised why small c conservatives who favour small govt are shrugging their shoulders.

    We'll have Tusk and Junker doing PMQs before long.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Jessop,

    "It's hardly a bribe though, is it?"

    No, it's the equivalent of the Krays popping round and offering "protection". If you choose not to pay, those little boats will increase in number.

  • Options
    PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Good morning, everyone.

    It is odd just how little is heard from Labour over the referendum. Has the Shadow Cabinet been locked in a basement?

    "Another Labour figure agrees Britain should remain in the EU" doesn't get many headlines. At the moment Labour would only get in the news in one of two ways: aggressively pro-Remain campaigning, which would simply be a repeat of the process of losing more voters by doing Cameron's dirty work for him (see Indyref) or through internal controversy about who is allowed to express what view where in a public, private, or semi-public capacity. That would just fuel even more "Labour party divided" headlines.

    To misquote, it's better to remain fairly quiet and be thought divided than to carpet-bomb the news cycle and prove it.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    So the EU are bribing Turkey to keep out swarms of unwanted immigrants, all sounds a bit racist to me.

    The Remainers on here are pro freedom of movement as am I, I'm surprised they support an organisation that is so blatantly xenophobic.

    Do you really support freedom of movement of the migrants entering the EU, and presumably those at Calais?

    The deal with Turkey to help it with the refugee crisis and suppress people smuggling seems a good example of what the countries of Europe can do together. Far better to act collectively rather than unilaterally in these things. Perhaps this sort of deal should have been sorted sooner; but it is good to see it happen nontheless.
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    Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Mr Longworth is today's Thunderer columnist

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/thunderer/article4707641.ece
  • Options
    blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The chances of a Tory majority or a hung parliament are probably now more dependent on EU ref and the size of any potential increase in the UKIP vote, especially after a narrow Remain, than anything Labour does now

    The Ukip vote won't rise under any circumstances.
    If it is a narrow Remain it almost certainly will, there are bound to be Leave voters shifting to UKIP especially from the Tories if not to the same extent as Yes voters went to the SNP
    Much to my disappointment Ukip is dead, no money, no structure, factions, disarray. In no state whatsoever to fight a national campaign.

    If any of the PB hierarchy are interested I'd be happy to write a header about this and the impact of the referendum on Ukip regardless of the outcome.
This discussion has been closed.