Kevin Hague - a Unionist blogger who delights in torturing Nats with facts sums it up well:
To sum up where we now stand;
The SNP's negotiating position is unreasonable - they are attempting to appropriate the "no detriment" clause and apply it in a way it was never intended to apply.
The SNP's negotiating position is hypocritical - they are arguing to retain some of the benefits of pooling and sharing that they've spent their political lives claiming are non-existent.
The SNP's negotiating position is nevertheless appropriate - it's a negotiation and their job is to get the best deal for Scotland; being unreasonable (and hypocritical) is probably necessary to achieve that
Of course the SNP can't lose here. If no agreement is reached they can unreasonably (but credibly) accuse the UK Government of reneging on the Smith Agreement; if they succeed in getting an unreasonable deal it will be in Scotland's best interests
Ha Ha Ha , Kevin Hague , failed businessman Tory who cannot count you mean.
Either post a link to substantiate your potential libel - or MODS - please remove it.
Go get a life you halfwit, neither of us know who the idiot is other than your usual unionist balloon on twitter.
You are the one who is going to get OGH in trouble by posting unsubstantiated allegations - typical NAT - make stuff up, then bluster when challenged - so when's SINDYREF2?
LOL, you really are a halfwit , "allegations" my arse. I said the guy could not count beyond his fingers, he will either be loaded and not care a jot or he will be skint and not care a jot.
I won't repeat your libel but note you admit "I do not know anything about him" yet chose to libel him - as usual, NAT caught making stuff up, blusters when confronted.
France 2016. "many children too, are living in miserable conditions in shanty towns resembling some of the worst parts of the Nairobi slums I visited last year"
Mark Williams should address his concerns to the occupant of the Elysee Palace. Can LibDem finances stretch to buying him a 'Speak French in 2 weeks' course?
People are selling up and fleeing Sturgeon's hell. Why is that good news for Scotland ?
You do realise a 'sale' means that someone has bought the sold-up house? I'm sure the influx of junior doctors will find the choice of housing most congenial.
Bought and sold at a deflated price. The supply is greater than the demand and implies a panic exodus from SNP controlled Scotland.
My$0.02? poses, to include us in the single rulebook.
But if France gets her way, it will show that she will fight UK being exempted from single rulebook when rules actually come in, and France has backing from other Eurozone members to make it happen. Especially if this memo confirns the precedent. The City of London, whose liberties have been protected for centuries in UK constitution, would have to submit to European Banking Authority.
Reading the eurorunes, Cameron's "deal" seems to be getting WORSE, not better. From finreg to benefits, it is being watered down. Of course much of this is theatre, but much of it is real: especially the threat of the entire thing being unstitched by Strasbourg after the vote. That is simply the case.
Given that Cameron's initial deal went down like a magnum of vomit, how can he go out and sell an even worse deal, and a deal which, moreover, can be simply overturned when the EU decides?
This is literally unsellable. If he tries, I think he will lose.
What are his options?
1. Postpone the referendum 2. Campaign for OUT 3. Go ahead and call the vote, and risk the very strong possibility of Brexit
2 is clearly out of the question. 1 is politically perilous. 3 is deeply unpalatable.
Cameron is in trouble.
There should be a TotalPolitics article going up today saying pretty much exactly that.
Great article. You don't sound very impressed with the EU.
What would it take, if anything, for you to vote Leave, David?
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
The ABs, graduates and students, London and the south-east are the core constituencies for Remain.
How much of London is actually eligible to vote?
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
People are selling up and fleeing Sturgeon's hell. Why is that good news for Scotland ?
You do realise a 'sale' means that someone has bought the sold-up house? I'm sure the influx of junior doctors will find the choice of housing most congenial.
Bought and sold at a deflated price. The supply is greater than the demand and implies a panic exodus from SNP controlled Scotland.
A lot of the reporting on the EU negotiations is so vague. Key question is: will the UK be included in the single banking rulebook or not? Have the French won the day over British concerns or not??
Adherance to the single rulebook is voluntary for non EZ countries that is a red herring.
To date it hao us.
My$0.02?
Edit: My €0.02
It is a confection to enable a sett rulebook.
But if France gets her way, itn, whose liberties have been protected for centuries in UK constitution, would have to submit to European Banking Authority.
We'll of course have to wait and see but I can't see it happening.
They already did it with the BRRD, it is an EMU solution that has been applied to the whole EU so as not to create safe-havens for cash within the EU. The UK has no need for the BRRD, we are well capitalised and the BoE can backstop any bank which hits the buffers without putting unsecured depositors at risk. Under the BRRD the government and BoE would be prevented from bailing out any UK bank which goes bankrupt before unsecured depositors are given a massive haircut. So it's not a case of wait and see because it has already happened. There is no way the EU will allow the City to escape from new regulations which are for EMU nations.
It is unclear to me how the BRRD, which states that it applies to all "EU member states" can be reconciled with banking union, the single rulebook (SSM, SRM, etc) which applies only to euro area members of the EU (mandatory) and not other countries in the EU (it is "open" to them).
The latter post-dated the former but it is still unclear.
Nothing here, for example (subsequent to the BRRD announcement), mentions EU member states..
My view, increasingly, is that the whole banking union/single rulebook issue is one confected between Dave and Francois so that Dave can say "look we have opted out" which will be a victory, although to include the UK (or other non-euro EU members) was never a serious proposition anyway. For the 0.0001% of the population that cares or notices or understands.
What will the EU do post-referendum? I just can't see them saying, "actually we meant all EU member states".
“The only reason the Tory party is doing so well is because Labour are doing so badly,” said John Curtice, politics professor at the University of Strathclyde.
“This is the first time since 1997 that there’s been any evidence of an increase in Tory support at all,” added Mr Curtice. “Don’t exaggerate the size of the rise.”
My$0.02? poses, to include us in the single rulebook.
But if France gets her way, it will show that she will fight UK being exempted from single rulebook when rules actually come in, and France has backing from other Eurozone members to make it happen. Especially if this memo confirns the precedent. The City of London, whose liberties have been protected for centuries in UK constitution, would have to submit to European Banking Authority.
Reading the eurorunes, Cameron's "deal" seems to be getting WORSE, not better. From finreg to benefits, it is being watered down. Of course much of this is theatre, but much of it is real: especially the threat of the entire thing being unstitched by Strasbourg after the vote. That is simply the case.
Given that Cameron's initial deal went down like a magnum of vomit, how can he go out and sell an even worse deal, and a deal which, moreover, can be simply overturned when the EU decides?
This is literally unsellable. If he tries, I think he will lose.
What are his options?
1. Postpone the referendum 2. Campaign for OUT 3. Go ahead and call the vote, and risk the very strong possibility of Brexit
2 is clearly out of the question. 1 is politically perilous. 3 is deeply unpalatable.
Cameron is in trouble.
There should be a TotalPolitics article going up today saying pretty much exactly that.
Great article. You don't sound very impressed with the EU.
What would it take, if anything, for you to vote Leave, David?
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
Thanks. I disagree with you but respect your honesty.
Cameron's formation of the ECR was the one notable success he's had in the EU. Had he continued successfully on a similar track I might not now be an ardent Leaver.
There's a theory Iolus[sp], Cassander's younger brother and son of Antipater [and also Alexander's cup-bearer] might have poisoned him, but this is quite unlikely. He would probably have been immediately murdered in retribution and there weren't, I think, accusations at the time. Given regicide was the Macedonian national sport, it's unlikely potential murder of Alexander would've gone without rather more comment and reaction.
Topping, I am not as cynical as you but I do agree the debate about the single rulebook has replaced debate about what we actually needed: the ability for non-Euro states to block EU wide rules passed by Eurozone alone. Certainly if UK has to submit to banking rulebook it will be huge defeat for UK. You think its artificial row that won't ever happen. I am not sure.
If, and although its a big if its getting smaller, Cameron opts for Leave, I wonder how many Tory Remainers would follow suit.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
I do wonder if Yes types might see this as an opportunity to create a real possibility of a second vote on membership of the UK. Be interesting to see if that's the case.
Wales, surprisingly, might vote to Leave, but they're only 3% or so of the population. I think Scotland's about 8-9%. London's likely to be Remain, which must be (total city) about 12% or so.
Re your previous response to me I would agree that if the deal cements the Euro zone over the non Euro zone Countries than exit is almost certain but as the deal has not been announced I will not pre-judge the outcome as many on here seem to be doing. I am genuinely sitting on the fence unlike some who are just want to leave no matter what David Cameron may or may not achieve
Occurs to me that Cameron is particularly screwed in these negotiations, because he is, in part, dealing with an organisation - the EU Parliament - which actively wants Britain to quit, at least in its higher echelons.
It's in their interest to make his deal as pisspoor as possible, and the optics worse. Hence, I think, remarks like that from Schulz this morning: we can undo the deal.
I don't see how any prime minister can seriously put to his nation a deal that effectively does not exist....???
People are selling up and fleeing Sturgeon's hell. Why is that good news for Scotland ?
You do realise a 'sale' means that someone has bought the sold-up house? I'm sure the influx of junior doctors will find the choice of housing most congenial.
Bought and sold at a deflated price. The supply is greater than the demand and implies a panic exodus from SNP controlled Scotland.
Good morning all.
Scotland should be a model for the rest of the country. We've become addicted to house price inflation. Houses _should_ be homes, not a substitute for a pension.
How we can simultaneously deplore the plight of first time buyers and then gloat over modest Scottish house price deflation baffles me.
Occurs to me that Cameron is particularly screwed in these negotiations, because he is, in part, dealing with an organisation - the EU Parliament - which actively wants Britain to quit, at least in its higher echelons.
It's in their interest to make his deal as pisspoor as possible, and the optics worse. Hence, I think, remarks like that from Schulz this morning: we can undo the deal.
I don't see how any prime minister can seriously put to his nation a deal that effectively does not exist....???
To shoe-horn in another 80's reference, it would be a Quantum Leap....
The ABs, graduates and students, London and the south-east are the core constituencies for Remain.
How much of London is actually eligible to vote?
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
Well, EU citizens won't be able to vote anyway.
I just don't know how the numbers will stack up. On the one hand, Remainers dominate the upper echelons of the broadcast media, big firms and the major professions and shout very loudly. They will turn out but they are outnumbered in the population at large.
On the other hand, even though Leavers are more dominant amongst older groups, they are concentrated in areas that are less economically successful and lower down the social class categories, whom do not have a great tradition of all turning out.
I don't have any details so this is pure speculation but I wonder if the drop in house prices overall in Scotland is less to do with any tax and more to do with a big drop in prices in the North East as a result of the oil price collapse. With all the redundancies going on and the builders still throwing up houses all over the place I wonder if a localised drop is enough to have a small national effect in Scotland?
Like I say I have not had a look at the figures at all so this could be entirely wrong.
Occurs to me that Cameron is particularly screwed in these negotiations, because he is, in part, dealing with an organisation - the EU Parliament - which actively wants Britain to quit, at least in its higher echelons.
It's in their interest to make his deal as pisspoor as possible, and the optics worse. Hence, I think, remarks like that from Schulz this morning: we can undo the deal.
I don't see how any prime minister can seriously put to his nation a deal that effectively does not exist....???
Mr. NorthWales, well, we'll see what emerges on the 18th. So far, the proposal, mood-music and rumours are all negative, in my eyes. Perhaps there'll be a surprise. Or perhaps not.
Occurs to me that Cameron is particularly screwed in these negotiations, because he is, in part, dealing with an organisation - the EU Parliament - which actively wants Britain to quit, at least in its higher echelons.
It's in their interest to make his deal as pisspoor as possible, and the optics worse. Hence, I think, remarks like that from Schulz this morning: we can undo the deal.
I think Merkel would go further on the deal, but her powers are limited too and Cameron needs all EU27 and the European Parliament.
The triumph of the EP over Juncker shows just how limited her oft-called all-mighty power is, even if she does pay all the bills, and that was before the EU migration crisis.
Topping, I am not as cynical as you but I do agree the debate about the single rulebook has replaced debate about what we actually needed: the ability for non-Euro states to block EU wide rules passed by Eurozone alone. Certainly if UK has to submit to banking rulebook it will be huge defeat for UK. You think its artificial row that won't ever happen. I am not sure.
I agree that on the single rulebook issue it would be an extraordinary defeat. But I prefer (non-cynically now) to look on it similarly to the fiscal compact. Something so egregiously sovereignty-abusing that even Cam couldn't sign or agree to it.
If, and although its a big if its getting smaller, Cameron opts for Leave, I wonder how many Tory Remainers would follow suit.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
He'd be cheered from the rafters.
The chances of Cameron campaigning for LEAVE are precisely nil.
He's a rich, portly, successful Old Etonian son of a stockbroker, married to a fancy posh wife, who has become leader of the Tory party and PM of GB. It's difficult to conceive of someone who has done "better" from the status quo. The status quo = Europe.
He was never a eurosceptic. At best he was tepidly europhile, compared to rampantly europhile like Blair. And he was never going to recommend LEAVE.
Of course you're right, but politicians are obsessed with legacy. Read the tories on here, Cameron has painted himself into a corner where he faces ignominy, if he resigns after Leave his whole career has been futile.
I'm not making a prediction, I'm just saying that he has a way of cementing his place in history.
People are selling up and fleeing Sturgeon's hell. Why is that good news for Scotland ?
You do realise a 'sale' means that someone has bought the sold-up house? I'm sure the influx of junior doctors will find the choice of housing most congenial.
Bought and sold at a deflated price. The supply is greater than the demand and implies a panic exodus from SNP controlled Scotland.
Scotland should be a model for the rest of the country
I'm sure many would welcome slower population growth in the rest of the country - but as long as we remain one of the more successful EU economies that's not going to happen.
And of course the SNP insist that income tax from higher population growth in rUK should be partly spent in Scotland.....
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
This is the leverage Cameron had, and he's used it to get... nothing.
Indeed. Cameron is an embarassment really... An awful negotiator - He made it clear years ago that he was so in love with the EU that he would never campaign to leave... So he asked for nothing and was given even less.
Then again he never was serious about EU reform... His one and only priority is scrabbling about trying to keep us "in" at any and all costs... Such is his EUphillia.
Ironic that in his desperation to keep us "in" at any price has made it more likely people vote "out" just to show we're not some pathetic, cretinous, cow-towing embarrassments, unlike our "leader".
Mr. NorthWales, well, we'll see what emerges on the 18th. So far, the proposal, mood-music and rumours are all negative, in my eyes. Perhaps there'll be a surprise. Or perhaps not.
I think that it is unwise to underestimate David Cameron and surely he has to pass the deal through his Cabinet as a whole. Has anyone thought what may happen if the Cabinet rejects the deal. I am content to wait until the end of the week when matters should become apparent to all
This is the leverage Cameron had, and he's used it to get... nothing.
This is Chicken Little stuff from the krauts. Honestly, people can't seem to deal with the prospect of change. What, precisely, is going to deter Brits from buying VW etc? It's not like the dealer networks are all going to be sucked down to the bowels of Hell if we vote 'Leave'.
Mr. NorthWales, I'm not underestimating Cameron. The group with which he is negotiating (leaving aside whether his heart is in it) has no interest in helping the UK. It's all about integration, and moving power from nation-states to Brussels.
Just as a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail, Brussels sees every problem as an opportunity to integrate more.
Kevin Hague - a Unionist blogger who delights in torturing Nats with facts sums it up well:
To sum up where we now stand;
The SNP's negotiating position is unreasonable - they are attempting to appropriate the "no detriment" clause and apply it in a way it was never intended to apply.
The SNP's negotiating position is hypocritical - they are arguing to retain some of the benefits of pooling and sharing that they've spent their political lives claiming are non-existent.
The SNP's negotiating position is nevertheless appropriate - it's a negotiation and their job is to get the best deal for Scotland; being unreasonable (and hypocritical) is probably necessary to achieve that
Of course the SNP can't lose here. If no agreement is reached they can unreasonably (but credibly) accuse the UK Government of reneging on the Smith Agreement; if they succeed in getting an unreasonable deal it will be in Scotland's best interests
Ha Ha Ha , Kevin Hague , failed businessman Tory who cannot count you mean.
Either post a link to substantiate your potential libel - or MODS - please remove it.
Go get a life you halfwit, neither of us know who the idiot is other than your usual unionist balloon on twitter.
You are the one who is going to get OGH in trouble by posting unsubstantiated allegations - typical NAT - make stuff up, then bluster when challenged - so when's SINDYREF2?
LOL, you really are a halfwit , "allegations" my arse. I said the guy could not count beyond his fingers, he will either be loaded and not care a jot or he will be skint and not care a jot.
I won't repeat your libel but note you admit "I do not know anything about him" yet chose to libel him - as usual, NAT caught making stuff up, blusters when confronted.
The bully down the ages.
Malcolmg is a bit of a dick but, I must confess, I quite like him: he is quite funny and has made me chuckle out loud more than once with his comedy insults. I don't take it too seriously and view it as fairly harmless.
There are OTOH other nat posters who are totally joyless.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
If they were wary about us leaving them in the lurch, why aren;t they lobbying like hell for our deal? I
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
This is the leverage Cameron had, and he's used it to get... nothing.
This is Chicken Little stuff from the krauts. Honestly, people can't seem to deal with the prospect of change. What, precisely, is going to deter Brits from buying VW etc? It's not like the dealer networks are all going to be sucked down to the bowels of Hell if we vote 'Leave'.
This is the same German car industry that has been consistently fiddling it's emission figures for a decade or more. They're worse than the Nats when it comes to fibbing.
I don't have any details so this is pure speculation but I wonder if the drop in house prices overall in Scotland is less to do with any tax and more to do with a big drop in prices in the North East as a result of the oil price collapse. With all the redundancies going on and the builders still throwing up houses all over the place I wonder if a localised drop is enough to have a small national effect in Scotland?
Like I say I have not had a look at the figures at all so this could be entirely wrong.
That would certainly be my gut feeling. Aberdeen/shire prices were definitely inflated.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Why does this matter? Because any promised changes which are not contained in a new Treaty will not be worth the paper they are written on. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has made clear that the EU Treaties can only be changed by a new EU Treaty. This must be ratified by every member state in accordance with its constitution. Some might have to hold referendums. We would not know the result until several years after we voted.
The government contends that a promise to change the Treaties after the poll can be legally binding. That is not the case. The former director general of the Legal Service of the Council of the European Union, Jean-Claude Piris, has said that the notion of a binding promise to change the Treaties in the future is “bullshit”. Sir Konrad Schiemann, the UK’s former judge in the ECJ, agrees with him.
Goodness me. What a surprise. I remember saying this to Mr Nabavi some two weeks ago. What took City AM so long?
This is the leverage Cameron had, and he's used it to get... nothing.
This is Chicken Little stuff from the krauts. Honestly, people can't seem to deal with the prospect of change. What, precisely, is going to deter Brits from buying VW etc? It's not like the dealer networks are all going to be sucked down to the bowels of Hell if we vote 'Leave'.
This is the same German car industry that has been consistently fiddling it's emission figures for a decade or more. They're worse than the Nats when it comes to fibbing.
The point is, people don't really care. My daughter is a VW zealot; she's not alone.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
When you say "They never have done and they never will" that is plain wrong. The push to complete the Single Market in 1993 was largely a British initiative.
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Incidentally I also "feel European" but that doesn't lead me to having negative feelings about the UK. On the contrary it's my favourite European country.
I sometimes think the basic divide in politics is between the woe-is-us-everything-is-shit brigade (on left and right) and sensibly optimisitic people.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
Ridiculous comment, re-read my penultimate line.
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
If, and although its a big if its getting smaller, Cameron opts for Leave, I wonder how many Tory Remainers would follow suit.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
He'd be cheered from the rafters.
The chances of Cameron campaigning for LEAVE are precisely nil.
He's a rich, portly, successful Old Etonian son of a stockbroker, married to a fancy posh wife, who has become leader of the Tory party and PM of GB. It's difficult to conceive of someone who has done "better" from the status quo. The status quo = Europe.
He was never a eurosceptic. At best he was tepidly europhile, compared to rampantly europhile like Blair. And he was never going to recommend LEAVE.
I don't think Cameron is committed at all to EU political integration, but nor is he a committed opponent of it. If Britain were not part of the EU, I doubt if he would be campaigning to join. I think it's more that he's happy to go with the flow, and just wishes the arguments about it would go away.
His problem is that he leads a party that won't let the issue go away.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
When you say "They never have done and they never will" that is plain wrong. The push to complete the Single Market in 1993 was largely a British initiative.
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
There is no diversity. If there were, Cameron would be able to get the rubbish deal he wanted in full, because others would be lobbying on our behalf.
They clearly aren't. Cameron is in effect being offered zero, nothing, nada, zip. Not even a fig leaf. It is an insult, the 27 nations in the EU know it. Is anybody else objecting? No.
There is zero evidence to support your point, and a welter of evidence against it.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Hang on, if Emma Thompson has come out for REMAIN I think we should all pause, take stock and give this landmark moment the respect it clearly deserves.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
Ridiculous comment, re-read my penultimate line.
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
You cost Leave votes every time you post. You should be locked up for the good of the cause you profess to believe in.
Incidentally I also "feel European" but that doesn't lead me to having negative feelings about the UK. On the contrary it's my favourite European country.
I sometimes think the basic divide in politics is between the woe-is-us-everything-is-shit brigade (on left and right) and sensibly optimisitic people.
Yes, I think that's right. A lot of people on the fringes of politics adopt outrageous positions in reaction to other people's outrageous positions (our own SeanT is not immune to it), so people who are anti-nationalist sometimes portray themselves as (and for all I know actually are) actively hostile to Britain.
I'm pretty much in your camp. I'm not sure I have a favourite European country, but although I like the lifestyle in Norway I do feel more at home here, and think there are plenty of ways that we shine, without being quite as different from everyone else as we like to think.
If, and although its a big if its getting smaller, Cameron opts for Leave, I wonder how many Tory Remainers would follow suit.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
He'd be cheered from the rafters.
The chances of Cameron campaigning for LEAVE are precisely nil.
He's a rich, portly, successful Old Etonian son of a stockbroker, married to a fancy posh wife, who has become leader of the Tory party and PM of GB. It's difficult to conceive of someone who has done "better" from the status quo. The status quo = Europe.
He was never a eurosceptic. At best he was tepidly europhile, compared to rampantly europhile like Blair. And he was never going to recommend LEAVE.
I don't think Cameron is committed at all to EU political integration, but nor is he a committed opponent of it. If Britain were not part of the EU, I doubt if he would be campaigning to join. I think it's more that he's happy to go with the flow, and just wishes the arguments about it would go away.
His problem is that he leads a party that won't let the issue go away.
I think that's fair - he's far more 'managerial' than 'ideological' - which is why he's a poor negotiator with the ideologues of the EU - he's far too 'reasonable'.....
3. We'll get the most amazing outpoaring of anguish from leftie luvvies like Ms Thompson and Eddie Izzard.
4. Polly Toynbee might just go and live in her Tuskan Villa forever.
5. Scotland might B8gger off as well.
Are there any downsides really?
As a kipper I was at odds with Ukip's position on Scottish independence, I wanted them to have it in the same way we want to stand on our own two feet.
It's about mindset, being a hunter not a gatherer, telling the world we're here to trade with everybody, bring it on.
Mealy mouthed politicians have never traded with anybody, they're clueless and self serving.
The productivity increase needed to cover the cost of the NLW could be pretty steep. As you might expect, there is a strong relationship between rising minimum wages and rising productivity. Most countries in the OECD have not strayed very far from this line of best fit.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
When you say "They never have done and they never will" that is plain wrong. The push to complete the Single Market in 1993 was largely a British initiative.
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
The people of France are very protectionist minded.
They don't understand how damaging it is for it to be made difficult for their own consumers and businesses to be able to buy the best products from other EU countries let alone non EU countries.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Funny, she was all for the UK during the recent Indy unpleasantness.
Why funny? She clearly feels we're all 'better together'.....she's consistent at least....how are the SNP going to argue in favour of the (European) Union?
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
When you say "They never have done and they never will" that is plain wrong. The push to complete the Single Market in 1993 was largely a British initiative.
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
No. The Single Market was always a major aim of the EU - it had to be as part of the basic principle of ever closer union. It was just that it was the bit the UK was most interested in and so the rest of the EU let us run with it. Indeed they used it as an excuse to get even more concessions out of us.
Them and Us is the basic relationship between the UK and the EU. If it were not we would now be in the Eurozone and Schengen and the CAP would no longer exist. .
Incidentally I also "feel European" but that doesn't lead me to having negative feelings about the UK. On the contrary it's my favourite European country.
I sometimes think the basic divide in politics is between the woe-is-us-everything-is-shit brigade (on left and right) and sensibly optimisitic people.
Yes, I think that's right. A lot of people on the fringes of politics adopt outrageous positions in reaction to other people's outrageous positions (our own SeanT is not immune to it), so people who are anti-nationalist sometimes portray themselves as (and for all I know actually are) actively hostile to Britain.
I'm pretty much in your camp. I'm not sure I have a favourite European country, but although I like the lifestyle in Norway I do feel more at home here, and think there are plenty of ways that we shine, without being quite as different from everyone else as we like to think.
If I were to emigrate, it would probably be to somewhere on the Adriatic.
If, and although its a big if its getting smaller, Cameron opts for Leave, I wonder how many Tory Remainers would follow suit.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
He'd be cheered from the rafters.
The chances of Cameron campaigning for LEAVE are precisely nil.
He's a rich, portly, successful Old Etonian son of a stockbroker, married to a fancy posh wife, who has become leader of the Tory party and PM of GB. It's difficult to conceive of someone who has done "better" from the status quo. The status quo = Europe.
He was never a eurosceptic. At best he was tepidly europhile, compared to rampantly europhile like Blair. And he was never going to recommend LEAVE.
I don't think Cameron is committed at all to EU political integration, but nor is he a committed opponent of it. If Britain were not part of the EU, I doubt if he would be campaigning to join. I think it's more that he's happy to go with the flow, and just wishes the arguments about it would go away.
His problem is that he leads a party that won't let the issue go away.
I think that's fair - he's far more 'managerial' than 'ideological' - which is why he's a poor negotiator with the ideologues of the EU - he's far too 'reasonable'.....
Modern politicians simply want to glide from one summit to the next. They aspire to act in concert, so that nobody is responsible when things go wrong.
Here we have a modern politician faced with a big historic decision, something that is complete anathema to him, and he is completely funking it.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
Ridiculous comment, re-read my penultimate line.
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
You cost Leave votes every time you post. You should be locked up for the good of the cause you profess to believe in.
Pillock.
Are you some sort of idiot? Do you really think that anybody is going to cast a vote based on what I say on here? Do you ever engage with anybody beyond your narrow, inner circle of blazer wearing tories?
Go and preen yourself in front of the mirror and remind yourself how gorgeous, talented and clever you are.
The ABs, graduates and students, London and the south-east are the core constituencies for Remain.
How much of London is actually eligible to vote?
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
When you say "They never have done and they never will" that is plain wrong. The push to complete the Single Market in 1993 was largely a British initiative.
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
No. The Single Market was always a major aim of the EU - it had to be as part of the basic principle of ever closer union. It was just that it was the bit the UK was most interested in and so the rest of the EU let us run with it. Indeed they used it as an excuse to get even more concessions out of us.
Them and Us is the basic relationship between the UK and the EU. If it were not we would now be in the Eurozone and Schengen and the CAP would no longer exist. .
Ireland is not in Schengen, nor are a few other of the more recent entrants. Plenty of countries are not in the Eurozone, and none of those which aren't plan to join any time soon. The notion of 27:1 is a myth.
As for the Single Market, yes, it was always an objective but it was a British initiative which saw it driven largely into place, in the same way that a single currency was always an objective but it was largely Delors' initiative, backed by Kohl and Mitterrand, that drove it into place. Whatever 'objectives' might exist, they still need people to make them happen.
The ABs, graduates and students, London and the south-east are the core constituencies for Remain.
How much of London is actually eligible to vote?
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
Ridiculous comment, re-read my penultimate line.
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
You cost Leave votes every time you post. You should be locked up for the good of the cause you profess to believe in.
Pillock.
Go and preen yourself in front of the mirror and remind yourself how gorgeous, talented and clever you are.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Richard, when you are eyes are closed and your fingers are in your ears its tricky. You and I (that's assumptive I know) were anti EU long before Cameron came along. These ridiculous negotiations have just confirmed what we've been saying for years. Let people muddy the waters with EEA, ECJ, EFTA, ECHR, little Englander, xenophobia, racist etc etc, its about who governs us.
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
I quite like Donald Tusk, actually. My opposition to the EU is institutional and political, not personal.
Ridiculous comment, re-read my penultimate line.
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
You cost Leave votes every time you post. You should be locked up for the good of the cause you profess to believe in.
Pillock.
I see that Anti-EU PB posters are as united as their campaign organisations. Must admit I agree with you Mr Royale. Keep up the work blackburn.
Describing Britain as “a tiny little cloud-bolted, rainy corner of sort-of Europe, a cake-filled misery-laden grey old island,” the actress said: “I feel European even though I live in Great Britain, and in Scotland.”
Funny, she was all for the UK during the recent Indy unpleasantness.
Why funny? She clearly feels we're all 'better together'.....she's consistent at least....how are the SNP going to argue in favour of the (European) Union?
It doesn't look like they'll have to make much of an argument, Scotland's will appears to be settled on this matter.
Happy for you that you have a poster girl for your world view though.
This is the leverage Cameron had, and he's used it to get... nothing.
This is Chicken Little stuff from the krauts. Honestly, people can't seem to deal with the prospect of change. What, precisely, is going to deter Brits from buying VW etc? It's not like the dealer networks are all going to be sucked down to the bowels of Hell if we vote 'Leave'.
What will deter Britains from buying Volkeswagen would be a 20% import tax.
I don't know. Unless there was a clear and close to permanent hostile attitude among a large majority of members, I don't think I would advocate withdrawal. It's more likely that the project will fall apart on its own, League of Nations-style.
I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
David this has been the cry of the Pro EU lobby for the last 40 years. At some point you are going to have to face facts. The UK cannot reform the EU in the way it wants because that is not what the rest of the EU want. They never have done and they never will.
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
I genuinely don't think people (not David of course) understand the extent to which the EU is a formal association. I think most people still think of it as some vague trade association trying to regulate the shape of bananas. I think they would be shocked if they knew the extent of the formality of the organisation and, as you say, how much out of step the UK is now and wants to continue to be.
The challenge for LEAVE is to communicate that without seeming too Little Englander. I don't think it possible, given the outrage on some sides when Dave didn't sign the Fiscal Compact. I mean that was seven pages of explicit delegation of sovereignty and still Lab and the LDs would have had us sign it.
The ABs, graduates and students, London and the south-east are the core constituencies for Remain.
How much of London is actually eligible to vote?
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
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I know that some believe that there is that attitude already but I don't accept that. There are potential allies all over - we just need to work it. People said similar things about Cameron withdrawing the Tories from the EPP, and in fact the ECR has become an established and increasingly powerful group. The problem right now is that while we're thinking about withdrawal, other governments will be wary about us leaving them in the lurch.
In the past month I have encountered Greeks, Moroccan Spaniards, Dutch Pakistanis, Greek Bangladeshis, Swedes, Australians, Vietnamese, Egyptians, Italian Bangladeshis and Bulgarians in the course of my work in both North and East London.
Most of the UK passport holders have been 55+ and very affluent and markedly different to the majority of non-British citizens who seem most prevalent in London.
I have listened to Afghani's complaining about Eastern Europeans undercutting their minicab wages.
Which is why his negotiating position has been so shite. As has the outcome.
The latter post-dated the former but it is still unclear.
Nothing here, for example (subsequent to the BRRD announcement), mentions EU member states..
My view, increasingly, is that the whole banking union/single rulebook issue is one confected between Dave and Francois so that Dave can say "look we have opted out" which will be a victory, although to include the UK (or other non-euro EU members) was never a serious proposition anyway. For the 0.0001% of the population that cares or notices or understands.
What will the EU do post-referendum? I just can't see them saying, "actually we meant all EU member states".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20044862
Dirty comic Viz banned from Facebook. This is their response. https://t.co/z9HfRZSTa6
“The only reason the Tory party is doing so well is because Labour are doing so badly,” said John Curtice, politics professor at the University of Strathclyde.
“This is the first time since 1997 that there’s been any evidence of an increase in Tory support at all,” added Mr Curtice. “Don’t exaggerate the size of the rise.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8483d4a6-d010-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377.html#ixzz40KGjYGaD
Cameron's formation of the ECR was the one notable success he's had in the EU. Had he continued successfully on a similar track I might not now be an ardent Leaver.
There's a theory Iolus[sp], Cassander's younger brother and son of Antipater [and also Alexander's cup-bearer] might have poisoned him, but this is quite unlikely. He would probably have been immediately murdered in retribution and there weren't, I think, accusations at the time. Given regicide was the Macedonian national sport, it's unlikely potential murder of Alexander would've gone without rather more comment and reaction.
As I said yesterday, Cameron now has the chance to go down in history as a great statesman. He should come back from Brussels, stick two fingers up and say he's doing whats best for the UK.
He'd be cheered from the rafters.
Scotland should be a model for the rest of the country. We've become addicted to house price inflation. Houses _should_ be homes, not a substitute for a pension.
How we can simultaneously deplore the plight of first time buyers and then gloat over modest Scottish house price deflation baffles me.
I just don't know how the numbers will stack up. On the one hand, Remainers dominate the upper echelons of the broadcast media, big firms and the major professions and shout very loudly. They will turn out but they are outnumbered in the population at large.
On the other hand, even though Leavers are more dominant amongst older groups, they are concentrated in areas that are less economically successful and lower down the social class categories, whom do not have a great tradition of all turning out.
Like I say I have not had a look at the figures at all so this could be entirely wrong.
The triumph of the EP over Juncker shows just how limited her oft-called all-mighty power is, even if she does pay all the bills, and that was before the EU migration crisis.
I'm not making a prediction, I'm just saying that he has a way of cementing his place in history.
And of course the SNP insist that income tax from higher population growth in rUK should be partly spent in Scotland.....
It is arrogance in the extreme for the UK to believe the EU must change to match our needs and aspirations when the rest of the EU has equally valid needs and aspirations which are, in many cases, directly opposed to our best interests.
I would have thought that after 43 years people might finally have come to realise this.
Then again he never was serious about EU reform... His one and only priority is scrabbling about trying to keep us "in" at any and all costs... Such is his EUphillia.
Ironic that in his desperation to keep us "in" at any price has made it more likely people vote "out" just to show we're not some pathetic, cretinous, cow-towing embarrassments, unlike our "leader".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3448932/Paedophile-campaigner-called-sex-children-legalised-joined-Labour-party-Party-figures-said-horrified-criminal-slipped-call-kicked-out.html
Cameron has turned out to be quite useless.
Just as a man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail, Brussels sees every problem as an opportunity to integrate more.
How can somewhere be both cake-filled and misery-laden?
A nonentity called Tusk (it'll be someone else soon) is deciding how we run the UK.
He can fuck off.
Lefties really do have a finely-honed ability to show off what twats they are when they don't have lines prepared by others in front of them.
We're only 9th in the world, after such behemoths as Baffin Island, Madagascar and New Guinea......
The mistake is in believing that the interests are directly opposed. Cameron's Bloomberg speech set out exactly what that isn't the case. A better-run, more efficient, more competitive continent is in everyone's interest. This binary division into them and us is very convenient for those who believe in withdrawal as a matter of principle but fails to recognise the diversity both across member states and within them.
On another note, my installation of Word has decided I am now Turkish....Thanks for that Bill.
I sometimes think the basic divide in politics is between the woe-is-us-everything-is-shit brigade (on left and right) and sensibly optimisitic people.
She's become the most ghastly luvvie.
1. We pull the plug on the EU project.
2. We shove it to the Eurocrats like Juncker.
3. We'll get the most amazing outpoaring of anguish from leftie luvvies like Ms Thompson and Eddie Izzard.
4. Polly Toynbee might just go and live in her Tuskan Villa forever.
5. Scotland might B8gger off as well.
Are there any downsides really?
I'm sure Ed Miliband is engaging and articulate, I'd very much enjoy meeting him over a bottle of wine. Do I want him as PM?
His problem is that he leads a party that won't let the issue go away.
They clearly aren't. Cameron is in effect being offered zero, nothing, nada, zip. Not even a fig leaf. It is an insult, the 27 nations in the EU know it. Is anybody else objecting? No.
There is zero evidence to support your point, and a welter of evidence against it.
I'll still be here.
Put that - as my Tory mother used to say - in your pipe and smoke it.
Pillock.
I'm pretty much in your camp. I'm not sure I have a favourite European country, but although I like the lifestyle in Norway I do feel more at home here, and think there are plenty of ways that we shine, without being quite as different from everyone else as we like to think.
It's about mindset, being a hunter not a gatherer, telling the world we're here to trade with everybody, bring it on.
Mealy mouthed politicians have never traded with anybody, they're clueless and self serving.
http://utopiayouarestandinginit.com/2015/11/21/productivity-and-the-national-living-wage/
The people of France are very protectionist minded.
They don't understand how damaging it is for it to be made difficult for their own consumers and businesses to be able to buy the best products from other EU countries let alone non EU countries.
Why funny? She clearly feels we're all 'better together'.....she's consistent at least....how are the SNP going to argue in favour of the (European) Union?
Them and Us is the basic relationship between the UK and the EU. If it were not we would now be in the Eurozone and Schengen and the CAP would no longer exist. .
Here we have a modern politician faced with a big historic decision, something that is complete anathema to him, and he is completely funking it.
Go and preen yourself in front of the mirror and remind yourself how gorgeous, talented and clever you are.
As for the Single Market, yes, it was always an objective but it was a British initiative which saw it driven largely into place, in the same way that a single currency was always an objective but it was largely Delors' initiative, backed by Kohl and Mitterrand, that drove it into place. Whatever 'objectives' might exist, they still need people to make them happen.
But I suspect we are not convincing each other.
* bottom lip begins to wobble....eyes get all watery....*
They make money out of us.
We are a net importer from Germany, France, Italy and Spain. Industry in each of those countries will not want to lose one of it's best customers.
All the EU countries the size of a wheelie bin really don't matter.
Must admit I agree with you Mr Royale. Keep up the work blackburn.
Happy for you that you have a poster girl for your world view though.
The challenge for LEAVE is to communicate that without seeming too Little Englander. I don't think it possible, given the outrage on some sides when Dave didn't sign the Fiscal Compact. I mean that was seven pages of explicit delegation of sovereignty and still Lab and the LDs would have had us sign it.
There are vast hordes of people in London who will be barred from voting then.
Again, I wonder how much attention the pollsters are paying to this.
25 maps & charts that explain how English got started & evolved into the differently accented languages spoken today https://t.co/6yETS2Ct7H