As I said on the previous thread Ukip is effectively finished in it's present form, skint, rudderless and pointless now we have the referendum. If we Remain the race is run, if we Leave I'd love to see a new Libertarian party formed around the likes of Carswell, Hannan and some of the more individual MPs on both sides. Not sure it will happen but wishful thinking.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
As I said on the previous thread Ukip is effectively finished in it's present form, skint, rudderless and pointless now we have the referendum. If we Remain the race is run, if we Leave I'd love to see a new Libertarian party formed around the likes of Carswell, Hannan and some of the more individual MPs on both sides. Not sure it will happen but wishful thinking.
If it's Leave, UKIP won't be dead at all. The debate about our place in Europe would not come to an end as a result of a Leave result, because no-one currently has the faintest idea what Leave actually entails. A Leave result would mean that UKIP becomes the anti-EEA-option party, arguing for an end to the freedom of movement part of the EU relationship, in contrast to a large block of the establishment, and some of the Leave side, who will be arguing for an EEA-style deal to minimise the economic damage .
Whilst I think you are right that this is what they will attempt I also think that they will have lost so much support from those BOO for whom immigration was not a big issue and who were happy with the EFTA position that they would really be on a hiding to nothing. Certainly they would lose some of their most effective advocates like Carswell.
Whilst I think you are right that this is what they will attempt I also think that they will have lost so much support from those BOO for whom immigration was not a big issue and who were happy with the EFTA position that they would really be on a hiding to nothing. Certainly they would lose some of their most effective advocates like Carswell.
Yes, I think Carswell would probably be on the EEA-style side, but Farage, Arron Banks etc on the non-EEA side. Basically it's Vote.Leave vs Leave.EU.
I find your faithlessness troubling Mortimer. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
As I said on the previous thread Ukip is effectively finished in it's present form, skint, rudderless and pointless now we have the referendum. If we Remain the race is run, if we Leave I'd love to see a new Libertarian party formed around the likes of Carswell, Hannan and some of the more individual MPs on both sides. Not sure it will happen but wishful thinking.
If it's Leave, UKIP won't be dead at all. The debate about our place in Europe would not come to an end as a result of a Leave result, because no-one currently has the faintest idea what Leave actually entails. A Leave result would mean that UKIP becomes the anti-EEA-option party, arguing for an end to the freedom of movement part of the EU relationship, in contrast to a large block of the establishment, and some of the Leave side, who will be arguing for an EEA-style deal to minimise the economic damage .
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
See I can't agree with you there. I think the best chance of a united Tory party is if LEAVE win. There may be a small (and I mean only one or two) amount of decapitation but otherwise I would expect that much of the party would unite very quickly behind a new leader with the EU question properly settled for the first time in 50 years. Of course there will be a tiny number of fanatical Europhiles who might want to cause trouble but most of the committed ideological federalists left in the 90s when John Stevens left. I really don't see a LEAVE result being a problem for the Tories at all.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Politics changes, I've no idea of your job or where you live but your views are very metropolitan and financial based. If we vote Leave Cameron will resign immediately, he'll have no choice, the Sceptics will have the upper hand and it will be them, as the govt, conducting negotiations, every other party becomes irrelevant until 2020.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You see I really don't understand this.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
As I said on the previous thread Ukip is effectively finished in it's present form, skint, rudderless and pointless now we have the referendum. If we Remain the race is run, if we Leave I'd love to see a new Libertarian party formed around the likes of Carswell, Hannan and some of the more individual MPs on both sides. Not sure it will happen but wishful thinking.
If it's Leave, UKIP won't be dead at all. The debate about our place in Europe would not come to an end as a result of a Leave result, because no-one currently has the faintest idea what Leave actually entails. A Leave result would mean that UKIP becomes the anti-EEA-option party, arguing for an end to the freedom of movement part of the EU relationship, in contrast to a large block of the establishment, and some of the Leave side, who will be arguing for an EEA-style deal to minimise the economic damage .
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
See I can't agree with you there. I think the best chance of a united Tory party is if LEAVE win. There may be a small (and I mean only one or two) amount of decapitation but otherwise I would expect that much of the party would unite very quickly behind a new leader with the EU question properly settled for the first time in 50 years. Of course there will be a tiny number of fanatical Europhiles who might want to cause trouble but most of the committed ideological federalists left in the 90s when John Stevens left. I really don't see a LEAVE result being a problem for the Tories at all.
As I said in reply to RN, if we Leave Cameron has no choice but to stand down. Reading the Telegraph the mood at ground level is very Eurosceptic.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You see I really don't understand this.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
As I said on the previous thread Ukip is effectively finished in it's present form, skint, rudderless and pointless now we have the referendum. If we Remain the race is run, if we Leave I'd love to see a new Libertarian party formed around the likes of Carswell, Hannan and some of the more individual MPs on both sides. Not sure it will happen but wishful thinking.
If it's Leave, UKIP won't be dead at all. The debate about our place in Europe would not come to an end as a result of a Leave result, because no-one currently has the faintest idea what Leave actually entails. A Leave result would mean that UKIP becomes the anti-EEA-option party, arguing for an end to the freedom of movement part of the EU relationship, in contrast to a large block of the establishment, and some of the Leave side, who will be arguing for an EEA-style deal to minimise the economic damage .
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
See I can't agree with you there. I think the best chance of a united Tory party is if LEAVE win. There may be a small (and I mean only one or two) amount of decapitation but otherwise I would expect that much of the party would unite very quickly behind a new leader with the EU question properly settled for the first time in 50 years. Of course there will be a tiny number of fanatical Europhiles who might want to cause trouble but most of the committed ideological federalists left in the 90s when John Stevens left. I really don't see a LEAVE result being a problem for the Tories at all.
As I said in reply to RN, if we Leave Cameron has no choice but to stand down. Reading the Telegraph the mood at ground level is very Eurosceptic.
Absolutely I see that. But the party leader stepping down does not equal turmoil or splits for the party. Given that the vast majority of the party seem to be either Eurosceptic or very luke warm REMAIN, I don't see there being any chance of a pro EU candidate emerging in any subsequent vote.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? In the Leave scenario, someone's got to come to a new deal with the EU. The nature of that deal is going to be massively controversial. (It will actually be rerun of the Remain/Leave argument).
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You see I really don't understand this.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
It really doesn't matter what the Outers want. For better or worse it will be the Government who decide what our future relationship will be with the rest of Europe and given that the best way to ensure stability and a continuation of normal trade relations is to join EFTA, I don't think there will really be any chance they will follow any other path. The Tories will still have 3 more years or so of power to craft our future relationship and the opponents of the EEA probably won't even register on the page as far as Parliament is concerned. Even the sole UKIP MP is in favour of the EEA route.
On your second point why is being represented by another wasteful and ill conceived level of politicians so important? Are you really so resentful of our own Councils and Parliament that you feel they must be subverted and controlled by a higher level of authority?
I'd quite forgotten that Foundation Trusts have the power to opt out of national terms and conditions. Would be nice if Tory reforms came to bite Hunt where it hurts.
It's a shame when you think of great Tory ministers of the past that it's now come to this - ministers as shambolic and clueless as Hunt and Grayling. Even between them the whelk stall would be too much.
Well the Tories must be getting worried as it appears to be shoot the messenger time. Par for the course from Plato.
Why would the Tories be getting worried? You are making the same mistake that every single issue obsessive makes; that everyone shares their level of commitment to the cause.
You look at polls showing 90% agree with the Junior Docs over the government. Indeed they do. But it doesn't matter. Why? put any question - do you support the government v nurses / teachers / the police / fire service / winklepickers / turbot molesters and the government will lose because people hate the government. Come election time and faced with Corbyn's terrorist chums, his giving away the Falklands, his general madness the Junior Docs will all be forgotten.
You might be right, you might be wrong. Its of no political consequence unless there is a realistic opposition to the Tories. Since there isnt get signed up to the new contract or start looking at boarded-up houses in Pollok, Glasgow.
I have zero knowledge of the Conservative Party, I know of several tory councillors who voted Ukip at the Euros (yeah yeah anecdote and all that but they have no reason to lie to me). My point is outside of Cameron's inner circle the party is very eurosceptic, in the event of Leave the momentum is with them. Cameron's acolytes will be diminished. We will still have a Conservative govt but an entirely different beast to this one.
Back to Ukip, it really must stop alienating swathes of the electorate and focus on individual freedom and collective resposibility.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? ......
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You see I really don't understand this.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
As long as those representatives aren't Ukip. ------------------------------------ I can't speak for Fox but, in my case, the first condition I need to be met is uncontrolled movement of people and then a single market for every tradable item, tangible or intangible.
I have zero knowledge of the Conservative Party, I know of several tory councillors who voted Ukip at the Euros (yeah yeah anecdote and all that but they have no reason to lie to me). My point is outside of Cameron's inner circle the party is very eurosceptic, in the event of Leave the momentum is with them. Cameron's acolytes will be diminished. We will still have a Conservative govt but an entirely different beast to this one.
Back to Ukip, it really must stop alienating swathes of the electorate and focus on individual freedom and collective resposibility.
On your first point I think we are actually in agreement. The point being that I don't see replacing the leader as causing much disruption to the party.
On your second point I agree entirely. But I honestly believe it is not possible for that to happen with UKIP. I know from past experience that Farage for example is very pro individual freedom and small government. You would think, given the way he dominates the party, that if anyone could take it in that direction he could. But I think he and the rest of the party have been entranced by the growth in support for UKIP on the back of migration and that has killed any chance of them taking it in a more Libertarian direction.
There are Libertarian parties already in the UK. But I think I have long accepted that my views on society and government are not shared by the vast majority of other people and as such there is a tiny chance, if any, that any such party could even approach the success of any mainstream Parliamentary party.
I don't see it that way at all.If we Leave the Tory party's recriminations could be fatal, Nigel will ride off into the financial sunset (good luck to him) and a measured, low tax, small state, entrepreneurial group will emerge. I want to Leave a) because I don;t want to be governed by Brussles and b) it will change the shape of our politics for the better.
Emerge how? ......
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Thats how I see it panning out post a Leave Vote, provided the EEA wants us (bearing in mind that we would have 75% or so of the EEA but non-EU population).
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You see I really don't understand this.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
As long as those representatives aren't Ukip. ------------------------------------ I can't speak for Fox but, in my case, the first condition I need to be met is uncontrolled movement of people and then a single market for every tradable item, tangible or intangible.
Uncontrolled movement of people?
That will give Leave a boost if Remain are campaigning for that.
Just catching up after an evening out. That poll showing Sanders tied with Clinton in Nevada is important, if confirmed y other polls. SC Democrats don't vote till the following week - if Sanders can win Nevada, he will have a real bandwagon going. It's 18 points up on a previous (very small) poll, but this one has a decent sample of 1236 voters.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
It really doesn't matter what the Outers want. For better or worse it will be the Government who decide what our future relationship will be with the rest of Europe
This is why a referendum with the potential for a Leave vote isn't a wise idea because it risks leaving people in charge implementing something they fundamentally don't believe in. If the country elected a majority government with a coherent manifesto commitment to withdraw from the European Union and a plan of what to do next that would be another matter.
I have zero knowledge of the Conservative Party, I know of several tory councillors who voted Ukip at the Euros (yeah yeah anecdote and all that but they have no reason to lie to me). My point is outside of Cameron's inner circle the party is very eurosceptic, in the event of Leave the momentum is with them. Cameron's acolytes will be diminished. We will still have a Conservative govt but an entirely different beast to this one.
Back to Ukip, it really must stop alienating swathes of the electorate and focus on individual freedom and collective resposibility.
On your first point I think we are actually in agreement. The point being that I don't see replacing the leader as causing much disruption to the party.
On your second point I agree entirely. But I honestly believe it is not possible for that to happen with UKIP. I know from past experience that Farage for example is very pro individual freedom and small government. You would think, given the way he dominates the party, that if anyone could take it in that direction he could. But I think he and the rest of the party have been entranced by the growth in support for UKIP on the back of migration and that has killed any chance of them taking it in a more Libertarian direction.
There are Libertarian parties already in the UK. But I think I have long accepted that my views on society and government are not shared by the vast majority of other people and as such there is a tiny chance, if any, that any such party could even approach the success of any mainstream Parliamentary party.
Your last paragraph sums up my stance, nearly everybody I talk to agrees about individual freedom, too many politicians, too much bureaucracy and govt meddling, but for reasons I've never understood the majority rarely, if ever, change their voting habits. I'm sincerely hoping, and if they're dashed I'll be extremely disappointed, that the referendum will change people's mindsets.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
It really doesn't matter what the Outers want. For better or worse it will be the Government who decide what our future relationship will be with the rest of Europe
This is why a referendum with the potential for a Leave vote isn't a wise idea because it risks leaving people in charge implementing something they fundamentally don't believe in. If the country elected a majority government with a coherent manifesto commitment to withdraw from the European Union and a plan of what to do next that would be another matter.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
It really doesn't matter what the Outers want. For better or worse it will be the Government who decide what our future relationship will be with the rest of Europe
This is why a referendum with the potential for a Leave vote isn't a wise idea because it risks leaving people in charge implementing something they fundamentally don't believe in. If the country elected a majority government with a coherent manifesto commitment to withdraw from the European Union and a plan of what to do next that would be another matter.
Tough. We are having the referendum and hopefully LEAVE will win.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
It really doesn't matter what the Outers want. For better or worse it will be the Government who decide what our future relationship will be with the rest of Europe
This is why a referendum with the potential for a Leave vote isn't a wise idea because it risks leaving people in charge implementing something they fundamentally don't believe in. If the country elected a majority government with a coherent manifesto commitment to withdraw from the European Union and a plan of what to do next that would be another matter.
Tough. We are having the referendum and hopefully LEAVE will win.
I really do believe that if Leave wins over Cameron's campaigning to Remain, then he should not be in charge of the divorce negotiations - someone from the Leave camp should be.
Indeed, given that, I don't think he should continue as PM in that eventuality. Someone from the Leave camp should take his place.
@chestnut & @Plato_Says don't want to start filling the new thread with music, if you like that you'll probably like this, similar but newer (about a year old) and closer to home (from London). Dom, the band leader, is a RA trained pianist who just gave up being Paloma's musical director to concentrate on his music, he's seriously good https://soundcloud.com/dom-pipkin/r2-01-come-in-my-house
I just got introduced to this Portuguese soul band Marta Ren & the Groovelvets, the album this is on isn't released yet - http://youtu.be/Rw9GTkjvUj4
Comments
Clearly, the City, big business, most of the trade union movement, the BBC, the Civil Service, the LibDems, most of Labour, and a chunk of the Conservative Party will be seeking to minimise the disruption - which means an EEA-style deal. UKIP, and all those voters who voted Leave because of concerns over immigration, will be spitting blood at the betrayal whereby it's proposed that we immediately sign back in to what they thought they'd just successfully voted to leave.
UKIP, unquestionably, would be the focus of the blood-spitting, and Farage would be a big part of it.
The Conservatives would be split, just as they are now. To a lesser extent, so would Labour. However, the economic turmoil is likely to focus minds fairly quickly. It won't be pretty, that's for sure.
Republican Candidates for President of the United States. https://t.co/0AavqHHnxN
How is he still in the race?
I find your faithlessness troubling Mortimer.
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Post of the day!
Gracias
Though as long as the 4 freedoms continue and the free flow of people and markets can continue, then it would suit me as a second-rate Ersatz EU status.
You've probably heard about George Orwell's Newspeak: take a closer look. https://t.co/jkVpqJ7od3 https://t.co/qpLDl8oUMa
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
You have gone on about freedom of movement and ability to hire staff from the rest of the EU as being your big argument for staying in. the EEA would give you that and yet you think it is a second rate option.
What is it about the EU that you would want but not be able to have if we were in the EEA? Do you want to throw away vast sums of money of the CAP and CFP? Do you want to have the EU decide that we have to have 5% VAT on our heating costs? Do you want to pay vast sums of money to the EU when we have no need to do so?
I really don't understand what you find so attractive when all you have gone on about before is the 4 freedoms which will still exist.
In the first instance it is far from clear that Leave would mean staying in the EEA. There are many outers who would prefer no association at all with the EU.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
As long as those representatives aren't Ukip.
On your second point why is being represented by another wasteful and ill conceived level of politicians so important? Are you really so resentful of our own Councils and Parliament that you feel they must be subverted and controlled by a higher level of authority?
You look at polls showing 90% agree with the Junior Docs over the government. Indeed they do. But it doesn't matter. Why? put any question - do you support the government v nurses / teachers / the police / fire service / winklepickers / turbot molesters and the government will lose because people hate the government. Come election time and faced with Corbyn's terrorist chums, his giving away the Falklands, his general madness the Junior Docs will all be forgotten.
You might be right, you might be wrong. Its of no political consequence unless there is a realistic opposition to the Tories. Since there isnt get signed up to the new contract or start looking at boarded-up houses in Pollok, Glasgow.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/500284/CST_response_SAC.pdf
I have zero knowledge of the Conservative Party, I know of several tory councillors who voted Ukip at the Euros (yeah yeah anecdote and all that but they have no reason to lie to me). My point is outside of Cameron's inner circle the party is very eurosceptic, in the event of Leave the momentum is with them. Cameron's acolytes will be diminished. We will still have a Conservative govt but an entirely different beast to this one.
Back to Ukip, it really must stop alienating swathes of the electorate and focus on individual freedom and collective resposibility.
Secondly, I would prefer that we were represented at all levels of the EU, including councils of ministers, commissioners and MEPs.
As long as those representatives aren't Ukip.
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I can't speak for Fox but, in my case, the first condition I need to be met is uncontrolled movement of people and then a single market for every tradable item, tangible or intangible.
On your second point I agree entirely. But I honestly believe it is not possible for that to happen with UKIP. I know from past experience that Farage for example is very pro individual freedom and small government. You would think, given the way he dominates the party, that if anyone could take it in that direction he could. But I think he and the rest of the party have been entranced by the growth in support for UKIP on the back of migration and that has killed any chance of them taking it in a more Libertarian direction.
There are Libertarian parties already in the UK. But I think I have long accepted that my views on society and government are not shared by the vast majority of other people and as such there is a tiny chance, if any, that any such party could even approach the success of any mainstream Parliamentary party.
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I can't speak for Fox but, in my case, the first condition I need to be met is uncontrolled movement of people and then a single market for every tradable item, tangible or intangible.
Uncontrolled movement of people?
That will give Leave a boost if Remain are campaigning for that.
i.e. superlative technical musicianship, searing emotional revelation and almost telepathic instantaneous creativity.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/269317-report-gilmore-suspending-campaign
Indeed, given that, I don't think he should continue as PM in that eventuality. Someone from the Leave camp should take his place.
So sad. I wonder if 12 votes in a primary or caucus is the least ever...
https://soundcloud.com/dom-pipkin/r2-01-come-in-my-house
I just got introduced to this Portuguese soul band Marta Ren & the Groovelvets, the album this is on isn't released yet -
http://youtu.be/Rw9GTkjvUj4