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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » With Cameron’s EU talks reaching crucial stage REMAIN’s Ips

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  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,129

    By the way, has anyone come into contact with these tours? They sound interesting, if expensive:

    http://www.politicaltours.com/

    I did like this "Book now to explore a rarely seen part of North Korea". What part of NK is frequently seen (apart from the bit just across the DMZ)?
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    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre
  • Options
    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The handwringing lefties on PB who want us to open the floodgates to migrants have just not grasped or understood the mood of the British people..They do not want anymore..no matter what age or religion or country of origin..no more..
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    We should support Merkel (boo hiss) in getting a fair share agreed across Europe.

    Why on earth should we bail out Germany for the consequences of its own stupidity? They took a bad problem and made it hugely worse (not least for those whom they have lured into attempting the journey). They are not children, they are a rich country, they are a democracy, it's up to them to deal with the problem. There's absolutely no reason why we should repeat the same mistake, even on a smaller scale.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sandpit said:

    watford30 said:

    tyson said:

    Re child migrants, I have just had my round robin email from Yvette Cooper who is championing the cause. I can fully understand that it is right to settle children who are displaced from their families who have been already given asylum status here, though I feel slightly uneasy that their parents have abandoned their children to such an uncertain plight. In the UK you are charged with child abandonment for leaving children for a day or two- upping sticks, and abandoning your child in a war torn country just strikes me as irresponsible to the extreme.

    But, I cannot understand how though it is in other migrant children's interests to try and settle them in the UK if they have no roots here leaving them at the mercy of our pretty appalling public care system for children. The outcomes for children in our care system are terrible, and these are UK children with family and contacts, for foreign children without any ties at all, they will just sink to the bottom.

    If Sharon Shoesmith's free, why don't we send her over to Syria with a few ambulance chasers from Leigh Day to put together a case for prosecution?
    Shall we organise a whip-round for their one-way tickets to Damascus? I'll chip in a tenner.
    Just so that you know - if you're thinking of a PB meet up in Damascus, it's a dry town. Oh? Damascus, Syria? I thought you were talking about Damascus MD. ;)
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    TOPPING said:

    Apropos of nothing...the Graun in its latest survey is asking about bias in news reporting: "Do you think the Guardian is biased to the left?" and (for the first time also in one of these surveys?): "Do you think the Guardian is biased to the right?"

    V funny obviously they are worried that their not wholly adulatory position on Jezza is losing them readers.

    What to do!? Poor old Graun.

    LOL. If they're sensible they will work with the Blairites and leave Corbyn's mob to the Morning Star. The problem is that the middle class handwringers who love their safe spaces and trigger warnings, who actually buy their rag, are all lined up four square behind the unelectable Jezza.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    eek said:



    But that assumes that France is a dangerous country from which those children need to be rescued. Granted there are a lot of insults we can throw at the French in jest and anger but you cannot seriously be suggesting that those children are in such danger that they need to cared for by the UK government rather than the French....

    No, but passing the buck back and forth isn't a solution either. We should support Merkel (boo hiss) in getting a fair share agreed across Europe. And while we're waiting for that, we should take a large chunk ourselves anyway. The fact that geographically Turkey is nearer than Greece, Greece nearer than France and France nearer than the UK is convenient, but not really sufficient to hide behind.
    Like I said,you really are taking the p...
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,288

    The Guardian clickbait is no more subtle than the Daily Mail's:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/jack-monroe-meat-vegan-food-ingredients

    If Jack Monroe did not exist, the Guardian would have to invent her.
    I believe you have failed to use the approved pronoun to refer to Jack. Expect a Twitter mob at your door and Yvette Cooper to furrow her brow in disdain.

    http://cookingonabootstrap.com/2015/10/22/please-dont-call-me-a-girl-called-jack-i-have-something-to-tell-you/

    Pronouns: Please use ‘they/them/their’ in place of ‘she/her’ etc. They/them pronouns are grammatically correct when used to denote a single person, although common usage is plural. It might look odd at first but it’s definitely okay.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
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    eek said:



    But that assumes that France is a dangerous country from which those children need to be rescued. Granted there are a lot of insults we can throw at the French in jest and anger but you cannot seriously be suggesting that those children are in such danger that they need to cared for by the UK government rather than the French....

    No, but passing the buck back and forth isn't a solution either. We should support Merkel (boo hiss) in getting a fair share agreed across Europe. And while we're waiting for that, we should take a large chunk ourselves anyway. The fact that geographically Turkey is nearer than Greece, Greece nearer than France and France nearer than the UK is convenient, but not really sufficient to hide behind.
    Nick wants to take more immigrants whilst his party complains about lack of houses and low wages and squeezed public services.

    No more need be said.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Bizarre

    Actually Brady's patronising drivel is being turned on its head. Fewer Europeans means more chances for English players and a greater chance of a world cup win!
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,222
    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    I went to Istanbul last season to watch Arsenal. Only difference to an EU country is I had to get a visa but that was easy enough (and not that expensive).

    I'm tempted to take a dig at West Ham and suggest that their fans will be unaffected whatever happens but they've done quite well so far this season.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    madasafish..plus the growing use of foodbanks..overcrowded schools..NHS..The likes of NPXMP and Yvette Cooper live is some sort of dream world..
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,288

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    I was idly speculating the other day whether Trump is not an anomaly but a sign of things to come. Outsiders with a celebrity profile and business background exploiting their mastery of direct media to bypass the traditional political elite and confound the accepted rules of modern electoral politics. I starting thinking about who could possibly fit the profile in this country. We can safely say now that Karen Brady is not one of them.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    Liverpool won the Champs League in a non-EU country 10 years ago. The home nations will still be members of sporting body UEFA who organise the tournament, irrespective of our membership of the EU - so she's talking bollocks.

    In the last couple of years British clubs have also travelled to Russia and Ukraine among other places.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Extrapolating from the present trajectory of polling intentions, whether phone or online, LEAVE will win a referendum held in June.

    Cameron REALLY needs to come back with some concrete reforms. I see no evidence that this is about to happen. And we haven't heard a word about the proposed safeguards for non-euro-members and the City, against eurozone bullying. Has that just been quietly abandoned?

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-misunderstanding-of-momentum/
    Blah blah blah blah.

    We don't need any theorising from a nerd who got the General Election wrong. We can all see it with our own eyes. Because exactly the same thing happened with indyref. Six months before indyref, NO was 15-20 points ahead, sometimes more, and then, as time went on....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#2014

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    The euroref is already on a knife-edge, judging by online polls.
    Given the only election prediction I made was that the libdems would do really badly, I don't think you can diss my predictive record.
    I've just been doing my tax returns for 2013-2015, and my accountant has queried several payments of around £50. They were all from you. Lost wagers.
    For several, read one.
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    tyson said:

    Nick- Europe is still scarred by what happened in WW2. There was no place of safety for Jews on the continent. But presumably, in war torn Syria, or Afghanistan, the children are received first in refugee camps outside of the war zones on the borders- hardly ideal I know, but possibly better than the uncertainties of the dinghies, and trek across Europe to finally end up alone in a care home in Ramsgate or Doncaster- which are ripe with drugs, child abuse and exploitation.

    And I struggle with the concept of people who would leave a war torn country and their children behind without family. And those who get separated from their children during the journey into Europe- I again struggle with that- how can that happen? How can you lose your child and then once lost just continue onwards.

    Maybe I'm missing something here and am just callous.


    You're one of the least callous people I've met, so scratch that one! I think the bottom line is that if you're a family in Syria or Libya there are literally no good options, and you are choosing between horrible alternatives with wildly incomplete information. Options include toughing it out (maybe all the bombs will miss you and the country will get better?) or going to a refugee camp (maybe they won't be places like the Palestinian camps where you're stuck for decades?) - or trusting dodgy smuggler X (he wants recommendations to other customers so maybe he'll deliver?) or sending the toughest/youngest family member (maybe they can find a better future and bring the family later?) or...

    They make well make the right or wrong choices, who knows for sure? But they aren't our choices. The choices we have are to let migrant children in (which might risk attracting more?) or turn them away (which might destroy their lives?). The comfortable, popular option is to turn them away, vaguely asserting that we're motivated by concern over sending the wrong signal. It's probably the wrong choice.
    I notice you've ignored the point that those children in the French camps are already in a safe and prosperous country - so why are you so keen they come here instead? Is this the strategy to win back Broxtowe?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2016

    The Guardian clickbait is no more subtle than the Daily Mail's:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/jack-monroe-meat-vegan-food-ingredients

    If Jack Monroe did not exist, the Guardian would have to invent her.
    I believe you have failed to use the approved pronoun to refer to Jack. Expect a Twitter mob at your door and Yvette Cooper to furrow her brow in disdain. [snip]
    :lol: - I shall take myself off to the pub later for re-education...
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    eek said:



    But that assumes that France is a dangerous country from which those children need to be rescued. Granted there are a lot of insults we can throw at the French in jest and anger but you cannot seriously be suggesting that those children are in such danger that they need to cared for by the UK government rather than the French....

    No, but passing the buck back and forth isn't a solution either. We should support Merkel (boo hiss) in getting a fair share agreed across Europe. And while we're waiting for that, we should take a large chunk ourselves anyway. The fact that geographically Turkey is nearer than Greece, Greece nearer than France and France nearer than the UK is convenient, but not really sufficient to hide behind.
    Like I said,you really are taking the p...
    Absolutely. Germany screws up and we have to help out? Not a chance. Merkel made her bed. She would have to do something very special to persuade us to join her on it.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,129
    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    Liverpool won the Champs League in a non-EU country 10 years ago. The home nations will still be members of sporting body UEFA who organise the tournament, irrespective of our membership of the EU - so she's talking bollocks.

    In the last couple of years British clubs have also travelled to Russia and Ukraine among other places.
    The issue (real or not) is the ability of fans to obtain visas I would guess, not participation by the clubs. The easy ability of clubs to employ EU players might be brought into question as would the ability of British players to obtain work in the EU.
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    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'Why on earth should we bail out Germany for the consequences of its own stupidity?'

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    The Guardian clickbait is no more subtle than the Daily Mail's:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/jack-monroe-meat-vegan-food-ingredients

    If Jack Monroe did not exist, the Guardian would have to invent her.
    I believe you have failed to use the approved pronoun to refer to Jack. Expect a Twitter mob at your door and Yvette Cooper to furrow her brow in disdain.

    http://cookingonabootstrap.com/2015/10/22/please-dont-call-me-a-girl-called-jack-i-have-something-to-tell-you/

    Pronouns: Please use ‘they/them/their’ in place of ‘she/her’ etc. They/them pronouns are grammatically correct when used to denote a single person, although common usage is plural. It might look odd at first but it’s definitely okay.
    Oh FFS - that person needs help. Potentially a lot of it.

    Modern gender theory is messing with people. Badly.
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    The Guardian clickbait is no more subtle than the Daily Mail's:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/jack-monroe-meat-vegan-food-ingredients

    If Jack Monroe did not exist, the Guardian would have to invent her.
    I believe you have failed to use the approved pronoun to refer to Jack. Expect a Twitter mob at your door and Yvette Cooper to furrow her brow in disdain. [snip]
    :lol: - I shall take myself off to the pub later for re-education...
    Pubs are excellent venues for re-education.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Brady is pointing out that lots of footballers who are EU nationals don't meet the visa requirements applied to non-EU footballers and consequently the willy-nilly import of moderate European footballers, or young ones would cease to happen.

    Take Arsenal - Bellerin, Coquelin, Flamini and Monreal wouldn't get a visa.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited January 2016
    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    Israeli, Turkish, Russian etc teams are in European football competitions....You never see any of their fans at away games...hmmm...

    Here are all those Turkish fans not able to travel to Old Trafford...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHXF0pZ8FEw
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    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    How many Hispanic actors get nominations? I'm totally struggling here bar long-dead Raul Julia

    Not sure Hispanic is a good example as it's not a real thing.
    Today, Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race"[34] and states that Hispanics or Latinos can be of any race, any ancestry, any ethnicity.[35]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic#Definitions_in_the_United_States
    That was really my point. Hispanic is not a racial identifier and as such is pretty meaningless when (regularly) used as one.

    To my mind, I'm not surprised that America choose to invent the term. It seems to have been developed as a way of saying "not white enough".
    The term Hispanic is Spanish: hispano and broadly refers to the peoples, nations, and cultures that have a historical link to Spain. The term is older than America.
    Where does that leave Brazilians?
    Um, Portugal (and by extension her colonies) was part of Spain/Spanish Empire from 1580 to 1640.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union
    And in Lisbon there is a whacking great statue of the Marquis de Pombal, think Nelson's column, the man who the Portuguese credit with rescuing them from Spanish slavery. It would be a mistake, Cap'n Doc, to think that the Portuguese and Spanish do not have "issues".
    Current relations between Spain and Portugal are outstandingly good. They cooperate in the fight against drug trafficking and forest fires (common in the Iberian Peninsula in summers), for example. These close relations are facilitated by similar governments; such as the conservative governments of José María Aznar & José Manuel Durão Barroso and the social democratic governments of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero & José Sócrates. Sócrates even claims that he has one of the best personal relations with Zapatero among international political relationships.

    In 1998, both countries signed the Albufeira Convention, an agreement on the sharing of trans-boundary rivers such as the Douro, Tagus, and Guadiana. The convention superseded an original agreement on the Douro, signed in 1927, that was expanded in 1964 and 1968 to include tributaries. The Albufeira Convention governs the equitable use of water and environmental concerns.[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal–Spain_relations
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2016
    "Vulnerable children are being placed in care outside their home county of Kent due to the influx of child asylum seekers, according to council chiefs.
    Kent County Council said the continuing flow of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children (UASC) from across the English Channel had left it with no choice."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-35403862
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,222

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    Liverpool won the Champs League in a non-EU country 10 years ago. The home nations will still be members of sporting body UEFA who organise the tournament, irrespective of our membership of the EU - so she's talking bollocks.

    In the last couple of years British clubs have also travelled to Russia and Ukraine among other places.
    The issue (real or not) is the ability of fans to obtain visas I would guess, not participation by the clubs. The easy ability of clubs to employ EU players might be brought into question as would the ability of British players to obtain work in the EU.
    If we treated the EU countries like we treat the non-EU countries now, clubs would be prevented from importing youngsters (such as Arsenal have successfully done with Cesc Fabregas and Hector Bellerin). The criteria for getting a work permit for players from non-EU countries is that a player needs to have played something like 75% of his nation's last 20 internationals (or something like that). So the established internationals would still be able to come.

    Of course, we could treat football as a special case given how much money the Premier League rakes in from around the world. That would be up to our government.

    As for British players going abroad, the effect would be minimal as, by and large, they don't.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Extrapolating from the present trajectory of polling intentions, whether phone or online, LEAVE will win a referendum held in June.

    Cameron REALLY needs to come back with some concrete reforms. I see no evidence that this is about to happen. And we haven't heard a word about the proposed safeguards for non-euro-members and the City, against eurozone bullying. Has that just been quietly abandoned?

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-misunderstanding-of-momentum/
    Blah blah blah blah.

    We don't need any theorising from a nerd who got the General Election wrong. We can all see it with our own eyes. Because exactly the same thing happened with indyref. Six months before indyref, NO was 15-20 points ahead, sometimes more, and then, as time went on....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#2014

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    The euroref is already on a knife-edge, judging by online polls.
    Given the only election prediction I made was that the libdems would do really badly, I don't think you can diss my predictive record.
    I've just been doing my tax returns for 2013-2015, and my accountant has queried several payments of around £50. They were all from you. Lost wagers.
    For several, read one.
    Actually, you're quite right - apols. I checked. There's just one from you, the others were from TSE, TUD and Mark Senior (I'd just mentally grouped them as "pb bets").

    Not a bad record, nonetheless.

    Mr. T, while you are here may I say I enjoyed your tweet to the effect that you have on your own paid more in tax in one year than a certain well known multinational business that has earned hundreds of millions in the UK in the same period?

    I rather fancy that big companies being allowed to dodge corporation tax through fancy accounting tricks whilst HMRC cracks down ever harder on ordinary people is going to become a big issue in the coming months and years.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2016
    O/T:

    Doug Richard has been found not guilty.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35437118
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
    But it includes online polls and phone polls which are both showing a very different picture. Because the former are cheap there are many more of them and so dilute the overall numbers.




  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    I went to Istanbul last season to watch Arsenal. Only difference to an EU country is I had to get a visa but that was easy enough (and not that expensive).

    I'm tempted to take a dig at West Ham and suggest that their fans will be unaffected whatever happens but they've done quite well so far this season.
    Hopefully we can make top 6...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    Liverpool won the Champs League in a non-EU country 10 years ago. The home nations will still be members of sporting body UEFA who organise the tournament, irrespective of our membership of the EU - so she's talking bollocks.

    In the last couple of years British clubs have also travelled to Russia and Ukraine among other places.
    The issue (real or not) is the ability of fans to obtain visas I would guess, not participation by the clubs. The easy ability of clubs to employ EU players might be brought into question as would the ability of British players to obtain work in the EU.
    If we treated the EU countries like we treat the non-EU countries now, clubs would be prevented from importing youngsters (such as Arsenal have successfully done with Cesc Fabregas and Hector Bellerin). The criteria for getting a work permit for players from non-EU countries is that a player needs to have played something like 75% of his nation's last 20 internationals (or something like that). So the established internationals would still be able to come.

    Of course, we could treat football as a special case given how much money the Premier League rakes in from around the world. That would be up to our government.

    As for British players going abroad, the effect would be minimal as, by and large, they don't.
    The rules set for footballers getting visas are totally arbitrary and could easily be adjusted. They have been altered a number of times in recent past.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    edited January 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    Do Away fans travel to non-EU countries, do you think?
    Liverpool won the Champs League in a non-EU country 10 years ago. The home nations will still be members of sporting body UEFA who organise the tournament, irrespective of our membership of the EU - so she's talking bollocks.

    In the last couple of years British clubs have also travelled to Russia and Ukraine among other places.
    The issue (real or not) is the ability of fans to obtain visas I would guess, not participation by the clubs. The easy ability of clubs to employ EU players might be brought into question as would the ability of British players to obtain work in the EU.
    Visas for Brit fans are easy if you're travelling with the club, only a little more tricky if travelling on your own. Visas for non-EU fans to travel to the UK are more difficult now and will probably stay the same in a non-EU future.

    Movement of players will not be an issue. We already trade players with African and South American countries with no issues, immigrants who pay income tax at 45% will always be welcome to work in the UK from anywhere!
  • Options

    The Guardian clickbait is no more subtle than the Daily Mail's:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/jack-monroe-meat-vegan-food-ingredients

    If Jack Monroe did not exist, the Guardian would have to invent her.
    I believe you have failed to use the approved pronoun to refer to Jack. Expect a Twitter mob at your door and Yvette Cooper to furrow her brow in disdain.

    http://cookingonabootstrap.com/2015/10/22/please-dont-call-me-a-girl-called-jack-i-have-something-to-tell-you/

    Pronouns: Please use ‘they/them/their’ in place of ‘she/her’ etc. They/them pronouns are grammatically correct when used to denote a single person, although common usage is plural. It might look odd at first but it’s definitely okay.
    Sue Neil :lol::lol:
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Danes are also wrestling with how to deal with migrants:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6e31579a-c675-11e5-808f-8231cd71622e.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product#axzz3yeJECxyn

    Its politicians seem to be moving sharply away from humanitarian impulses.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Doug Richard has been found not guilty.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35437118

    Relief all round at BBC / UK TV...they can show reruns of old Dragon's Den....
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''What a disaster. And NPXMP wants more of this, still more, millions more, invite them all in. What a fool.''

    Not really. For the left, immigrants make much better voters than natural born citizens.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    UK mother Tareena Shakil, who took son to Syria, guilty of joining so-called Islamic State and encouraging terror

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35443884

    There's a shock. Women with the most unconvincing excuses ever found guilty.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    AndyJS said:

    "Vulnerable children are being placed in care outside their home county of Kent due to the influx of child asylum seekers, according to council chiefs.
    Kent County Council said the continuing flow of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children (UASC) from across the English Channel had left it with no choice."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-35403862

    I was just going to mention kent social services been overwhelmed by unaccompanied migrant children.

    Thanks for posting this.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
  • Options
    Maoist cult leader Aravindan Balakrishnan jailed for 23 years

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35443423
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Doug Richard has been found not guilty.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35437118

    So the jury must have agreed with him, that he was set up and lied to by the underage girl. Relief no doubt for lots of men who use escorts and fantasy sites, but this is really one of those cases where no-one comes out of it well.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Its politicians seem to be moving sharply away from humanitarian impulses.''

    Depends on your viewpoint. Perhaps Denmark's existing tax paying citizens might consider their impulses humanitarian to them.

    White Europeans are humans too, though that may come as a surprise to some.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    SeanT said:


    It's a fucking disgrace, is what it is. And yes, I feel the reckoning is coming, at last.

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    GRRR, GRRR and thrice GRRR

    Much that I think a number of companies have been taking the proverbial ...that isn't true and is another thing that really annoys me when reporting on these issues....All these companies pay a fortune in things like employers NI contributions "tax". What they don't pay a lot of is corporation tax.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2016
    SeanT said:

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    You paid more than $1.97bn in tax?

    Respect.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
    Doesn't work that way in all countries. Some have a setup where all the wins are taxed and the losses are very difficult / impossible to write off. Greece has one of the most bonkers on this.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098


    Current relations between Spain and Portugal are outstandingly good. They cooperate in the fight against drug trafficking and forest fires (common in the Iberian Peninsula in summers), for example. These close relations are facilitated by similar governments; such as the conservative governments of José María Aznar & José Manuel Durão Barroso and the social democratic governments of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero & José Sócrates. Sócrates even claims that he has one of the best personal relations with Zapatero among international political relationships.

    In 1998, both countries signed the Albufeira Convention, an agreement on the sharing of trans-boundary rivers such as the Douro, Tagus, and Guadiana. The convention superseded an original agreement on the Douro, signed in 1927, that was expanded in 1964 and 1968 to include tributaries. The Albufeira Convention governs the equitable use of water and environmental concerns.[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal–Spain_relations

    Avaaast, Cap'n Doc! One could write a similar spiel about the relationship between britain and France. Doesn't change the fact that the two countries have always had, still have and probably always will have "issues". Find a Portugee and tell him that you think of Portugal and Spain as sort of the same place and that they are the same people, then let me know how you get on.

    Belike, else.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024
    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
    Ha. I wonder what the tax return for a professional gambler looks like, do they even need to do one?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    AndyJS said:

    "Vulnerable children are being placed in care outside their home county of Kent due to the influx of child asylum seekers, according to council chiefs.
    Kent County Council said the continuing flow of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children (UASC) from across the English Channel had left it with no choice."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-35403862

    I believe it costs in the region of £30,000 p.a. to look after an unaccompanied child. So, we should take in more, at a time when social services are already struggling, and councils are facing reduced budgets?
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited January 2016

    Hopefully we can make top 6...

    It's worth putting a few pounds on West Ham to reach the Champions League within three years.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
    Ha. I wonder what the tax return for a professional gambler looks like, do they even need to do one?
    No you don't....In 10 years, the tax man never asked me for anything related to that, nor should he.
  • Options
    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
    Ha. I wonder what the tax return for a professional gambler looks like, do they even need to do one?
    Where does he stand in the food bank queue?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,024

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Desperate stuff from Remain side today - Karren Brady says football fans benefit from being in the EU because they can go to away matches in Europe.

    Does anyone with more than 3 brain cells seriously believe that if we left the EU there would be a bar on away fans??

    Bizarre

    This is what happens when you have an out of touch metropolitan elite running a campaign. Her ridiculous comments are not even worth responding to. Brady should keep up the good work.
    At what point does one's gambling activity become taxable?
    It isn't. If gambling was taxable then the collorary is that gambling losses must be write-offable.
    Not sure the Gov't wants that.
    Ha. I wonder what the tax return for a professional gambler looks like, do they even need to do one?
    No you don't....In 10 years, the tax man never asked me for anything related to that, nor should he.
    Cool. I'll be sticking to the amateur gambling for now though :)
  • Options
    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
    I considered that, but I think she was just referring to men in general.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,529
    Maybe it is just me but there is really no obvious trend in those figures one way or another. Far too few people are engaged in this. The concern for Leave is that remains the case and status quo have another hit.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    edited January 2016
    Google Taxes:

    12 months ending 2014-12-31
    Alphabet Inc
    (NASDAQ:GOOG)

    Income Before Tax 17,259.00
    Income After Tax 13,928.00

    I make that a tax rate of 19.3% on net profits. Or "Income" as the yanks insist on calling it.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    edited January 2016
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Extrapolating from the present trajectory of polling intentions, whether phone or online, LEAVE will win a referendum held in June.

    Cameron REALLY needs to come back with some concrete reforms. I see no evidence that this is about to happen. And we haven't heard a word about the proposed safeguards for non-euro-members and the City, against eurozone bullying. Has that just been quietly abandoned?

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-misunderstanding-of-momentum/
    Blah blah blah blah.

    We don't need any theorising from a nerd who got the General Election wrong. We can all see it with our own eyes. Because exactly the same thing happened with indyref. Six months before indyref, NO was 15-20 points ahead, sometimes more, and then, as time went on....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#2014

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    The euroref is already on a knife-edge, judging by online polls.
    Given the only election prediction I made was that the libdems would do really badly, I don't think you can diss my predictive record.
    I've just been doing my tax returns for 2013-2015, and my accountant has queried several payments of around £50. They were all from you. Lost wagers.
    For several, read one.
    Actually, you're quite right - apols. I checked. There's just one from you, the others were from TSE, TUD and Mark Senior (I'd just mentally grouped them as "pb bets").

    Not a bad record, nonetheless.

    I have also lost a bet against Pulpstar. Against that, I've won bets against tim, Mark Senior, Sean_F and the secretary of UKIP.

    So shall we say pax?

    Edit to add: also, the last time I put money into my Betfair account was nine years ago, when I stupidly bet we wouldn't lose the Ashes five-nil.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Google Taxes:

    12 months ending 2014-12-31
    Alphabet Inc
    (NASDAQ:GOOG)

    Income Before Tax 17,259.00
    Income After Tax 13,928.00

    I make that a tax rate of 19.3% on net profits. Or "Income" as the yanks insist on calling it.

    Are you telling me that Google earns less than a trainee traffic warden?
    The units are $Million.
  • Options
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
    Read that Merkel is near a breakdown and it’s not surprising. If anyone has read the ‘cruel sea’ you read of the ultimate hard decision when the Captain of the minesweeper chasing a U boat has his depth charges primed and is virtual on top of the submarine when he is confronted with hundreds of allied seamen in front of him in the water. He makes the decision to launch the depth charges in the greater good. David Cameron must have struggled with his decision on migrants, but like the minesweeper Captain, made the correct decision in the greater interest of the many who would be tempted to make the hazardous journey only to drown, be stranded in Europe, or be one of the 60% or more who will be returned to their home country. History will prove David Cameron as the leader in this crisis who called it correct and Merkel and labour absolutely wrong, and in Merkel’s case, catastrophically so.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    You paid more than $1.97bn in tax?

    Respect.
    HSBC Bank, not known for being naively generous, paid £1,100,000,000 corporation tax in 2013.

    A year later Facebook paid £4,327


    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2314339/Taking-British-tax-ride-Barclays-HSBC-questioned-structure-affairs.html
    Yes, but Facebook Inc has a $1.97bn tax charge (2014).

    You are confusing your geographies. How much corporation or income tax did you pay in Germany, which I understand is stuffed full of your fans?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Google Taxes:

    12 months ending 2014-12-31
    Alphabet Inc
    (NASDAQ:GOOG)

    Income Before Tax 17,259.00
    Income After Tax 13,928.00

    I make that a tax rate of 19.3% on net profits. Or "Income" as the yanks insist on calling it.

    Are you telling me that Google earns less than a trainee traffic warden?
    Those numbers are millions. They are for Google's parent company in the US, Alphabet Inc.

    If you want to learn about how US corporates have increased their profits in the last eight years, can I recommend this excellent piece I wrote:

    http://www.thstailwinds.com/chasing-their-tails/
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    Pulpstar said:

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Google Taxes:

    12 months ending 2014-12-31
    Alphabet Inc
    (NASDAQ:GOOG)

    Income Before Tax 17,259.00
    Income After Tax 13,928.00

    I make that a tax rate of 19.3% on net profits. Or "Income" as the yanks insist on calling it.

    Are you telling me that Google earns less than a trainee traffic warden?
    The units are $Million.
    Trainee traffic wardens earn a lot in Primrose Hill
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Are you telling me that Google earns less than a trainee traffic warden?

    Its worth bearing in mind that Google's 5,000 UK employees pay tax (presumably) by PAYE. And all the UK companies they trade with pay personal and corporate taxation.

  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Doug Richard has been found not guilty.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35437118

    I called that one wrong. Goodness.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
    But it includes online polls and phone polls which are both showing a very different picture. Because the former are cheap there are many more of them and so dilute the overall numbers.

    Filtering for only phone or face-to-face polling gives (with a 5 poll moving average)

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    So a broadly similar look.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited January 2016
    More generally, I'm very amused by the argument that HMRC is not getting enough out of multi-nationals, because of cosy deals like the £135m extracted from Google in relation to previous tax years. Instead, it is said, HMRC should insist on them paying more, like the French allegedly do.

    In other words, the critics of HMRC are indignant that HMRC, instead of applying the law, is not doing deals to extract more.

    You can't have it both ways. Either you want tax to be subject to negotiation based on what you can shame the taxpayer into paying, or you take the conventional view that parliament makes the law and HMRC applies it.

    The idea that HMRC wouldn't extract as much as they legally can is absolutely solid-gold bat-shit crazy.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited January 2016

    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
    Read that Merkel is near a breakdown and it’s not surprising. If anyone has read the ‘cruel sea’ you read of the ultimate hard decision when the Captain of the minesweeper chasing a U boat has his depth charges primed and is virtual on top of the submarine when he is confronted with hundreds of allied seamen in front of him in the water. He makes the decision to launch the depth charges in the greater good. David Cameron must have struggled with his decision on migrants, but like the minesweeper Captain, made the correct decision in the greater interest of the many who would be tempted to make the hazardous journey only to drown, be stranded in Europe, or be one of the 60% or more who will be returned to their home country. History will prove David Cameron as the leader in this crisis who called it correct and Merkel and labour absolutely wrong, and in Merkel’s case, catastrophically so.
    Merkel has made exactly the same mistake as Thatcher: staying in power longer than 10 years is never a good idea because you start living in a bubble of invincibility where you can do no wrong. Blair had the good sense to stand down just after his 10th anniversary.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
    But it includes online polls and phone polls which are both showing a very different picture. Because the former are cheap there are many more of them and so dilute the overall numbers.

    Filtering for only phone or face-to-face polling gives (with a 5 poll moving average)

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    So a broadly similar look.
    What's interesting from the phone polls is that Independence constantly ate into the DKs, but never really changed the "Better Off Together share".
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,288
    AndyJS said:

    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
    Read that Merkel is near a breakdown and it’s not surprising. If anyone has read the ‘cruel sea’ you read of the ultimate hard decision when the Captain of the minesweeper chasing a U boat has his depth charges primed and is virtual on top of the submarine when he is confronted with hundreds of allied seamen in front of him in the water. He makes the decision to launch the depth charges in the greater good. David Cameron must have struggled with his decision on migrants, but like the minesweeper Captain, made the correct decision in the greater interest of the many who would be tempted to make the hazardous journey only to drown, be stranded in Europe, or be one of the 60% or more who will be returned to their home country. History will prove David Cameron as the leader in this crisis who called it correct and Merkel and labour absolutely wrong, and in Merkel’s case, catastrophically so.
    Merkel has made exactly the same mistake as Thatcher: staying in power longer than 10 years is never a good idea because you start living in a bubble of invincibility where you can do no wrong. Blair had the good sense to stand down just after his 10th anniversary.
    Blair stayed a lot longer past his 'mad-by' date than Thatcher. The jury's still out on Merkel.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670


    In other words, the critics of HMRC are indignant that HMRC, instead of applying the law, is not doing deals to extract more.

    The argument is that they are not applying the law but instead doing deals over a bottle of wine.

    I read (skimmnig headlines) that Google's contention that they did not have permanent residence in the UK has never been challenged by HMRC which is amazing if true.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    I'm not confusing my geographies. I'm saying these multinational companies which generate huge profits in the UK should pay their rightful tax in the UK, instead of going via some shed in Luxembourg. It may be just the right side of legal but it is still despicable. They should be shamed into coughing up, especially as they pose as "progressive".

    Moreover, its grotesquely unfair on British domiciled companies which pay their fair whack, thereby suffering unfair competition from tax-free Facebook, amazon, Google, etc

    Facebook is not tax free, it charged $1.97bn to its profit & loss account in 2014. Should some of that come to the UK? Quite possibly, but then the UK will equally have to give up some of its tax revenues to other countries.

    I agree - everyone agrees - that the international tax treaties and accounting regulations need to be updated to take account of the changed business environment. It's not something to get indignant about, it's something to hold lots of boring international meetings about - which is happening.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
    But it includes online polls and phone polls which are both showing a very different picture. Because the former are cheap there are many more of them and so dilute the overall numbers.

    Filtering for only phone or face-to-face polling gives (with a 5 poll moving average)

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    So a broadly similar look.
    What's interesting from the phone polls is that Independence constantly ate into the DKs, but never really changed the "Better Off Together share".
    This matches Ashcrofts polling that stated that the majority of No voters made up their mind more than a year before the referendum. The graphs I knocked up are both from Jan 2014 onwards.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    The argument is that they are not applying the law but instead doing deals over a bottle of wine.

    Yes, and it is complete, conspiracy-theory, garbage.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    SeanT said:


    It's a fucking disgrace, is what it is. And yes, I feel the reckoning is coming, at last.

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    GRRR, GRRR and thrice GRRR

    Much that I think a number of companies have been taking the proverbial ...that isn't true and is another thing that really annoys me when reporting on these issues....All these companies pay a fortune in things like employers NI contributions "tax". What they don't pay a lot of is corporation tax.
    And why don't they pay corporation tax, Mr. Urquahrt? Is it because they don't make profits, in which case one wonders how they survive year after year making a loss. Perhaps it is because they have clever lawyers and accountants gaming the system.

    As for the indirect taxes nonsense, I pay out a lot in VAT and in other duties such as on petrol and alcohol (especially the last) but I still have to pay income tax. Some corporations are taking the piss and it is time HMRC put a stop to it.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    It is very arguable that if the Nats had benefited from another 2 or 3 weeks of campaigning, they would have won

    Or lost by a bigger margin
    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    Nothing is impossible but this is the 10 poll moving average from the IndyRef.
    But it includes online polls and phone polls which are both showing a very different picture. Because the former are cheap there are many more of them and so dilute the overall numbers.

    Filtering for only phone or face-to-face polling gives (with a 5 poll moving average)

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    So a broadly similar look.
    What's interesting from the phone polls is that Independence constantly ate into the DKs, but never really changed the "Better Off Together share".

    The EuRef is a lot closer to start with, so those DKs may be enough to push Leave over the line.

    Love Europe? Leave EU.
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    Black lives matter...Forget the police shooting, nope in mad world of Oxford, it is not ripping a status down...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12129220/Uproar-over-decision-to-keep-Cecil-Rhodes-statue-at-Oxford-College.html
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,034
    edited January 2016
    http://tinyurl.com/shariamail

    "Sharia law" proving popular in the Daily Mail today. (Check the comments)

    Seriously !
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    isamisam Posts: 41,072
    watford30 said:

    taffys said:

    Because for Nick Palmer and his ilk, higher immigration is a good thing in itself, regardless of the source.

    Jess Philips' remarks on Birmingham show there are no circumstances under which immigration does not improve things, according to labour

    Perhaps Jess Philips was suggesting that Birmingham is now as bad as Cologne, with immigrants carrying out sexual assaults in swimming pools and on the streets.
    I genuinely thought that's what she was saying when I first saw the headline.. "At last! A labour politician says what people are thinking"
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    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    More generally, I'm very amused by the argument that HMRC is not getting enough out of multi-nationals, because of cosy deals like the £135m extracted from Google in relation to previous tax years. Instead, it is said, HMRC should insist on them paying more, like the French allegedly do.

    In other words, the critics of HMRC are indignant that HMRC, instead of applying the law, is not doing deals to extract more.

    You can't have it both ways. Either you want tax to be subject to negotiation based on what you can shame the taxpayer into paying, or you take the conventional view that parliament makes the law and HMRC applies it.

    The idea that HMRC wouldn't extract as much as they legally can is absolutely solid-gold bat-shit crazy.

    "You can't have it both ways. Either you want tax to be subject to negotiation based on what you can shame the taxpayer into paying, or you take the conventional view that parliament makes the law and HMRC applies it."

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    Facebook's £4,327 is particularly offensive. And they are all about their branding as a "nice carey-sharey company". It wouldn't be hard to embarrass them into forking out at least a portion of what they owe, morally.

    Morally? In the area of taxation there's no such thing.

    Bad PR, maybe.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,325
    edited January 2016

    SeanT said:


    It's a fucking disgrace, is what it is. And yes, I feel the reckoning is coming, at last.

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    GRRR, GRRR and thrice GRRR

    Much that I think a number of companies have been taking the proverbial ...that isn't true and is another thing that really annoys me when reporting on these issues....All these companies pay a fortune in things like employers NI contributions "tax". What they don't pay a lot of is corporation tax.
    And why don't they pay corporation tax, Mr. Urquahrt? Is it because they don't make profits, in which case one wonders how they survive year after year making a loss. Perhaps it is because they have clever lawyers and accountants gaming the system.

    As for the indirect taxes nonsense, I pay out a lot in VAT and in other duties such as on petrol and alcohol (especially the last) but I still have to pay income tax. Some corporations are taking the piss and it is time HMRC put a stop to it.
    Is that not what I said? My point was it is factually incorrect to say they pay no tax...What they don't aren't paying much of is Corporation Tax. And yes again lets just be clear one particular company lumped in with all the others doesn't make vast profits. Amazon.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,129
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    Doug Richard has been found not guilty.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35437118

    I called that one wrong. Goodness.
    Er, what was that old crack about goodness?
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    isamisam Posts: 41,072

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: Breaking: Cameron brands the Juncker emergency brake plan "not good enough". Brinkmanship for a February deal goes up to DEFCON2.

    HE'S BEHIND YOU.

    OH NO HE ISN'T.

    OH YES HE IS.
    Well if hoardes of young men from MENA are going to come here assaulting young women etc at least they wont be able to claim benefits for 4 years...

    That'll teach em
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    Big Opinium survey on the Mayoral election, refugees, diversity and other issues, some of them zany - e.g. do you think it's acceptable for cars to drive on the pavement? How about vans? HGVs? I think they're trying to set the context for a question about cycling on the pavement, but there's a faint hint of push poll about that bit to my mind.
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    But, as I said, you are not paying German income tax. Why not, I wonder?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    Amazon (genuinely) barely makes any money. Every penny they earn, they spend.
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    SeanT said:


    It's a fucking disgrace, is what it is. And yes, I feel the reckoning is coming, at last.

    BTW you don't have to earn international thriller writer salaries to pay more tax than Facebook. A NURSE pays more tax, on average, than Facebook Inc.

    GRRR, GRRR and thrice GRRR

    Much that I think a number of companies have been taking the proverbial ...that isn't true and is another thing that really annoys me when reporting on these issues....All these companies pay a fortune in things like employers NI contributions "tax". What they don't pay a lot of is corporation tax.
    And why don't they pay corporation tax, Mr. Urquahrt? Is it because they don't make profits, in which case one wonders how they survive year after year making a loss. Perhaps it is because they have clever lawyers and accountants gaming the system.

    As for the indirect taxes nonsense, I pay out a lot in VAT and in other duties such as on petrol and alcohol (especially the last) but I still have to pay income tax. Some corporations are taking the piss and it is time HMRC put a stop to it.
    Actually for many of these companies it IS because they're not earning much profit, if not actually losing money. The reason they can survive year after year is due to investors and or loans. Some companies investors, eg Amazon, care more about growing sales than they do actual profit as they're looking at the big picture.

    I find the reporting of corporation tax relative to sales totally dishonest and illiterate. Corporation tax is and always has been relative to profits and some businesses operate on very slight profit margins.

    That's not to say abuses shouldn't be weeded out or embarrassed but not everything is an abuse.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,230
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    I think the point Richard is making is that you make money selling books to Germans. How is that different from Google selling search results to Brits?

    You don't pay tax in Germany, and Google barely pays tax here.

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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    Amazon (genuinely) barely makes any money. Every penny they earn, they spend.
    Yes their shares are down 8 points today because Bezos still doesn't have a plan to actually make money.
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    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    How much are you paying to France, Germany, Holland etc?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    Amazon (genuinely) barely makes any money. Every penny they earn, they spend.
    I could only applaud Osborne when he shut down the Channel Islands Low Value Confinement Relief.
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    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: Breaking: Cameron brands the Juncker emergency brake plan "not good enough". Brinkmanship for a February deal goes up to DEFCON2.

    HE'S BEHIND YOU.

    OH NO HE ISN'T.

    OH YES HE IS.
    Well if hoardes of young men from MENA are going to come here assaulting young women etc at least they wont be able to claim benefits for 4 years...

    That'll teach em
    Considering MENA citizens have absolutely zero rights to movement from Europe to the UK how is that at all relevant? We are talking about Europeans not Africans here.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Why not do both? Tighten up the law, but if it proves impossible to get these chisellers to cough up a decent sum, legally, then, yes a good shaming might do it.

    As long as you're happy to be treated in the same way...
    I have just had my accountant's email, detailing my returns. I will be paying roughly 40% of my income to HMRC next week. I claim my justifiable expenses, and no more. I don't evade or avoid tax.

    Unlike Facebook, Google, amazon, etc
    I think the point Richard is making is that you make money selling books to Germans. How is that different from Google selling search results to Brits?

    You don't pay tax in Germany, and Google barely pays tax here.

    Google do however serve advertising that is negotiated from offices in London but then invoiced from Ireland. How their London Sales office is not a permanent base and has not been challenged as a permanent base is surprising.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,072
    edited January 2016

    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: Breaking: Cameron brands the Juncker emergency brake plan "not good enough". Brinkmanship for a February deal goes up to DEFCON2.

    HE'S BEHIND YOU.

    OH NO HE ISN'T.

    OH YES HE IS.
    Well if hoardes of young men from MENA are going to come here assaulting young women etc at least they wont be able to claim benefits for 4 years...

    That'll teach em
    Considering MENA citizens have absolutely zero rights to movement from Europe to the UK how is that at all relevant? We are talking about Europeans not Africans here.
    Yeah righto, this time last year if you would have said the same to people in Cologne on German PB, Philippe von Thompzon on there would have said what you just did
This discussion has been closed.