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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    Historically, a very large number of traitors in our security services were blackmailed as a result of their homosexuality. By making it clear that being gay is not a problem, it dramatically lowers the risk that someone will be able to be blackmailed.
    I still don't know how making it clear being gay is not a problem is newsworthy. Blackmailing gays was decades ago, Stonewall do themselves no favours with this nonsense.

    People are people, being gay friendly is a nonsense, it implies going out of the way to accommodate a section of society which is ridiculous.

    I know employers where being publicly gay would be a problem.

    And how would you think "gay friendliness" would manifest itself?

    The truth is that the security services want to know EVERYTHING about their employees. If you discourage reporting of who your partner is, then that's an employee who's lying to you. You do understand how corrosive that is, right?
    Who are these employers that aren't "gay friendly"? Whatever that ridiculous phrase means.

    Are they also black friendly, ornithologist friendly and beekeeper friendly?

    Again, I would have thought it was obvious.

    Gay friendly means, for example, giving death in service benefits to gay partners. (Something that was a big issue before gay marriage was legalised.)
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    Historically, a very large number of traitors in our security services were blackmailed as a result of their homosexuality. By making it clear that being gay is not a problem, it dramatically lowers the risk that someone will be able to be blackmailed.
    I still don't know how making it clear being gay is not a problem is newsworthy. Blackmailing gays was decades ago, Stonewall do themselves no favours with this nonsense.

    People are people, being gay friendly is a nonsense, it implies going out of the way to accommodate a section of society which is ridiculous.
    I imagine that within the context of the security services, they would like those who are gay to be openly so, rather than in the closet with close family. They want their staff to be honest and open, rather than hiding things and leaving themselves open to possible blackmail or coersion.
    So at the interview:

    Are you a shirt lifter? If you are we promise not to tell the wife and kids.

    Phucking ridiculous state of affairs, if people want to hide things from from the family don't apply to be a spy ffs.



  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    rcs1000 said:



    There are very few genuinely evil people in this world. Most people are trying to do the best they can in difficult circumstances. And I think - like the story in the US of the boy with the home made clock - there is a desire to err on the side of caution. Even though that caution can look utterly ridiculous from the outside. If we ridicule people who report things that turn out to be nothing, we will end up discouraging people from reporting things that turn out to important.

    We also know little of the circumstances. Did the teacher have other reasons to suspect, or was this a one off? Etc etc.

    There's a lot in that (though I know nothing of the specific case, which does sound peculiar and unreasonable on the face of it). In general, not just in politics, if you assume people will always be good or always evil, you run into trouble. Most people try to do what seems to be their best, with lapses of self-indulgence or mood.

    AndyJS last thread - if you sign up for PokerStars they offer a "playmoney" option which introduces you to the game (as well as detailed rules and a training option), though because people aren't playing for money they will be much more random in their behaviour than in the real game.

    General warning: it's thought that around 90% of players lose money over the long run, so it's best to assume you will gradually lose ground and only play as much as you will enjoy even if you lose - a bit like going to the races and putting £5 on an outsider for the thrill: that's £5 invested in having fun, not a serious expectation of return. If you then win like I did last night, that's great, but it's just icing on the cake. Serious pros are sad people, grinding away hour after hour at what for most is probably less than minimum wage at best.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    If they hadn't followed up and there had been a subsequent attack I'm sure you would have been unstinting in your criticism of the government.

    I suspect the press if over-egging it: all the police would have done would have been popped over for a chat to the parents and figured out that it wasn't an issue.

    As for the teacher highlighting a potential concern for a child at risk, and the police linking up with social services...isn't that kind of exactly what we *want* our public services to do? Otherwise you can end up with Baby P type scenarios where no one talks to the other agencies
    From a spelling mistake to comparisons with Baby P, welcome to the Nanny State. My god if only Orwell was here now.
    Investigating possible terrorist links (for that is how it was interpreted) is not a nanny state.

    Get off the outrage bus, it makes fools of almost everyone on it.
    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Stonewall explain in their report how they judge gay friendliness among employers.

    There are many workplaces where gay men and lesbians are not made particularly welcome, whatever the formal policies of the organisation. It can vary within organisations. One point I have often made internally is that the experience of a very senior partner in London is likely to be very different from someone working in the post room in Leeds. When policies are set by the former they are unlikely to appreciate the practical problems of the latter.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    On topic - the point about news agenda made down thread is part of the key to this, the other is just momentum. There will be ambitious careerists who note that Palin hopes to get Secretary of the Environment out of this (gulp!), and wonder whether they should get on the train too.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,962

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    Actually sounds eminently sensible to me. Teachers have a duty of care and are obliged to report it.

    As they should be.

    Imagine the outcry if it were true, and it had been ignored, and the family had departed to Syria the following week.

    I'm frustrated at the family asking for an apology.

    One of those situations where everyone’s got some element of right on their side. And where everyone’s got something wrong.
    There are very few genuinely evil people in this world. Most people are trying to do the best they can in difficult circumstances. And I think - like the story in the US of the boy with the home made clock - there is a desire to err on the side of caution. Even though that caution can look utterly ridiculous from the outside. If we ridicule people who report things that turn out to be nothing, we will end up discouraging people from reporting things that turn out to important.

    We also know little of the circumstances. Did the teacher have other reasons to suspect, or was this a one off? Etc etc.
    Yes perhaps the teacher was alerted by the ticking from the ten year olds anorak. God only knows what would have happened if he failed his times tables, the teacher would have called the riot police.

    Still, before long some bright spark will say the teacher was a ukip voter who assumed all Muslim boys are being groomed to blow us all up.

    Come on hand wringers - which way do you want it?

    A teacher should be able to look at a home made clock and understand that it was a clock and how it works.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,154
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Palin has a network she built up in Iowa, potential donors and is popular with evangelicals, she is more likely to be Secretary of Energy though than Vice Presidential pick again

    It would be wise for Trump NOT to nominate her as VP before super Tuesday at any rate methinks.
    He won't
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,154
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Palin has a network she built up in Iowa, potential donors and is popular with evangelicals, she is more likely to be Secretary of Energy though than Vice Presidential pick again

    Interesting: so you think it's about improving Trump's Iowa ground game. That's a plausible scenario.
    She built up a network in Iowa for a potential 2012 run which will help him
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Or breathe, come to that

    'God loves a sinner come to his understanding'
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,933
    edited 2016 20

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    Traditionally MI5 & 6 were VERY interested in their employees' sex lives. Perhaps there's a touch of over compensating going on.
    They still are very interested in the sex lives of their employees, and with good reason.

    They want people who are honest with those close to them, who aren't likely to draw attention to themselves by their out of work behaviour, and who can't be effectively blackmailed or coerced into acting against the state that employs them.

    Someone having an affair, someone sleeping with a different partner every week, someone who uses prostitutes, someone who is closeted gay to their conservative parents - all of these are people who could be a security risk if working as spies. Positive or Developed Vetting still goes on for many senior governmental positions too.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    edited 2016 20

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    If they hadn't followed up and there had been a subsequent attack I'm sure you would have been unstinting in your criticism of the government.

    I suspect the press if over-egging it: all the police would have done would have been popped over for a chat to the parents and figured out that it wasn't an issue.

    As for the teacher highlighting a potential concern for a child at risk, and the police linking up with social services...isn't that kind of exactly what we *want* our public services to do? Otherwise you can end up with Baby P type scenarios where no one talks to the other agencies
    From a spelling mistake to comparisons with Baby P, welcome to the Nanny State. My god if only Orwell was here now.
    Investigating possible terrorist links (for that is how it was interpreted) is not a nanny state.

    Get off the outrage bus, it makes fools of almost everyone on it.
    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    The teacher's duty of care is to the child - there is risk to the child if even a shred of truth to what had been written down. It was well worth investigating. This is totally different to the sort of 'knowing' accusations you refer to!

    Incidentally, spelling mistakes are one of those issues which look obvious with the hindsight of knowing it was a mistake.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Stonewall explain in their report how they judge gay friendliness among employers.

    There are many workplaces where gay men and lesbians are not made particularly welcome, whatever the formal policies of the organisation. It can vary within organisations. One point I have often made internally is that the experience of a very senior partner in London is likely to be very different from someone working in the post room in Leeds. When policies are set by the former they are unlikely to appreciate the practical problems of the latter.

    Sounds a bit Leedsist to me Alastair. I really don't see how being gay is either a help or a hindrance in any job.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. 63, Loinerist?

    [Someone from Leeds is called a Loiner].
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    AndyJS said:

    "Oxford Union backs motion to remove Cecil Rhodes statue

    Students narrowly back Rhodes Must Fall campaign despite hearing that next step would be to tear down statues of Winston Churchill and anyone else with an unblemished historical record"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12109394/Oxford-Union-backs-motion-to-remove-Cecil-Rhodes-statue.html

    I doubt even Churchill would have claimed his record was "unblemished"!
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    Traditionally MI5 & 6 were VERY interested in their employees' sex lives. Perhaps there's a touch of over compensating going on.
    They still are very interested in the sex lives of their employees, and with good reason.

    They want people who are honest with those close to them, who aren't likely to draw attention to themselves by their out of work behaviour, and who can't be effectively blackmailed or coerced into acting against the state that employs them.

    Someone having an affair, someone sleeping with a different partner every week, someone who uses prostitutes, someone who is closeted gay to their conservative parents - all of these are people who could be a security risk if working as spies. Positive or Developed Vetting still goes on for many senior governmental positions too.
    Ahh so are they adulterer friendly too?
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    What is so pathetic about this is the contrast between the heavy-handed response of the authorities to a child's scribblings and the supine and limp-wristed response of the authorities to genuine Islamic extremism practised by adults. Cowards always pick on the weakest I suppose.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164

    AndyJS said:

    "Oxford Union backs motion to remove Cecil Rhodes statue

    Students narrowly back Rhodes Must Fall campaign despite hearing that next step would be to tear down statues of Winston Churchill and anyone else with an unblemished historical record"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12109394/Oxford-Union-backs-motion-to-remove-Cecil-Rhodes-statue.html

    I doubt even Churchill would have claimed his record was "unblemished"!
    Good piece by Niall Ferguson in the STimes last week - argues that the RhodesMustFall tools are just another brand of iconoclast, and that they would have to fight public opinion and Oxford university tooth and nail to win. I don't think they Fallers are hard enough. Twitter butters no parsnips.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    If they hadn't followed up and there had been a subsequent attack I'm sure you would have been unstinting in your criticism of the government.

    I suspect the press if over-egging it: all the police would have done would have been popped over for a chat to the parents and figured out that it wasn't an issue.

    As for the teacher highlighting a potential concern for a child at risk, and the police linking up with social services...isn't that kind of exactly what we *want* our public services to do? Otherwise you can end up with Baby P type scenarios where no one talks to the other agencies
    From a spelling mistake to comparisons with Baby P, welcome to the Nanny State. My god if only Orwell was here now.
    Investigating possible terrorist links (for that is how it was interpreted) is not a nanny state.

    Get off the outrage bus, it makes fools of almost everyone on it.
    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    The teacher's duty of care is to the child - there is risk to the child if even a shred of truth to what had been written down. It was well worth investigating. This is totally different to the sort of 'knowing' accusations you refer to!

    Incidentally, spelling mistakes are one of those issues which look obvious with the hindsight of knowing it was a mistake.
    How about the teacher says:

    Explain to me what you mean by terrorist house.

    There's a long row and ours is one of them.

    Right, I'm calling the police before your Dad beheads anybody.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,933

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    Traditionally MI5 & 6 were VERY interested in their employees' sex lives. Perhaps there's a touch of over compensating going on.
    They still are very interested in the sex lives of their employees, and with good reason.

    They want people who are honest with those close to them, who aren't likely to draw attention to themselves by their out of work behaviour, and who can't be effectively blackmailed or coerced into acting against the state that employs them.

    Someone having an affair, someone sleeping with a different partner every week, someone who uses prostitutes, someone who is closeted gay to their conservative parents - all of these are people who could be a security risk if working as spies. Positive or Developed Vetting still goes on for many senior governmental positions too.
    Ahh so are they adulterer friendly too?
    Nope. The original comment about them being gay-friendly was that they want to see their gay staff being open and honest with colleagues and family, rather than keeping secrets that could expose them to trouble.

    Anyone already living two lives for whatever reason wouldn't be particularly welcome to the security services, except for the occasional turned foreign agent of course.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Stonewall explain in their report how they judge gay friendliness among employers.

    There are many workplaces where gay men and lesbians are not made particularly welcome, whatever the formal policies of the organisation. It can vary within organisations. One point I have often made internally is that the experience of a very senior partner in London is likely to be very different from someone working in the post room in Leeds. When policies are set by the former they are unlikely to appreciate the practical problems of the latter.

    Sounds a bit Leedsist to me Alastair. I really don't see how being gay is either a help or a hindrance in any job.


    Dirty Leeds.

    It helps having workers who are comfortable in their own skins in the workplace. Interestingly, younger members of staff (gay and straight) tell us that they strongly value working for a firm that recognises that.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    A newer German poll which looks more normal, so the INSA 12.5% may have been an outlier as I suggested, though AfD up to 10 here too:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/forsa.htm
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    runnymede said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    What is so pathetic about this is the contrast between the heavy-handed response of the authorities to a child's scribblings and the supine and limp-wristed response of the authorities to genuine Islamic extremism practised by adults. Cowards always pick on the weakest I suppose.

    Yes I've noticed that as well.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    ..:::s
    From a spelling mistake to comparisons with Baby P, welcome to the Nanny State. My god if only Orwell was here now.
    Investigating possible terrorist links (for that is how it was interpreted) is not a nanny state.

    Get off the outrage bus, it makes fools of almost everyone on it.
    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    The teacher's duty of care is to the child - there is risk to the child if even a shred of truth to what had been written down. It was well worth investigating. This is totally different to the sort of 'knowing' accusations you refer to!

    Incidentally, spelling mistakes are one of those issues which look obvious with the hindsight of knowing it was a mistake.
    How about the teacher says:

    Explain to me what you mean by terrorist house.

    There's a long row and ours is one of them.

    Right, I'm calling the police before your Dad beheads anybody.

    I have this funny feeling that you'd be on the opposite side of this argument had there been a shred of truth.

    Policies and procedures are engineered to protect child welfare. This seems to have been followed here. No one was hurt.

    My objection is to the media indulgence of hurt feelings in this case. No one has a right to not have their feelings hurt in the investigation of violent extremism - one of the great evils of our age.

    In fact, I think the media are often responsible for whipping up anti government feeling when they describe reactions as heavy handed, insensitive etc.

    People need to grow up. There are no safe spaces when we are trying to combat such an evil.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'There are no safe spaces when we are trying to combat such an evil.'

    That sounds like the excuse of tyrants throughout the ages, doesn't it? Tomas de Torquemada would have agreed entirely with such sentiments.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    runnymede said:

    'There are no safe spaces when we are trying to combat such an evil.'

    That sounds like the excuse of tyrants throughout the ages, doesn't it? Tomas de Torquemada would have agreed entirely with such sentiments.

    The idea of a safe space is infantile.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2016 20
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/19/jeremy-corbyn-race-control-labour-party
    To sneer at 14 days of reshuffle-related mess is an error based on the Westminster canard that a week is a long time. Corbyn and friends come from a place where 14 years is a pause for breath; where 30 years of barren rhetoric can whizz by without frustration.

    Set that as the tempo of achievement and the appointment of an anti-Trident shadow defence secretary is a monumental triumph. Every day in the leader’s chair is more triumphant still if it stops the Labour party returning to what it was.

    It is the kind of combat that Corbyn and his allies know well, while their fidgety opponents are still adjusting to the pace. Those impatient for effective opposition need to reset their watches. Labour isn’t just out of synch with the country. It has landed in a different political time zone.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    All this fuss and bother overnight about the supposed link-up between Trump & Palin has rather obscured the big mover in the GOP nominee betting markets, John Kasich whose odds with a number of bookies have tumbled from 100/1 to the 50/1-66/1 range.
    It's a shame that he starts so far behind in a seemingly hopeless position ..... I've listened to him speaking on a couple of YouTube clips and he's actually quite impressive as well as having an excellent record of achievement in Ohio.
    Realistically though, he has no chance and it's already down to the three clear front runners.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited 2016 20

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    Actually sounds eminently sensible to me. Teachers have a duty of care and are obliged to report it.

    As they should be.

    Imagine the outcry if it were true, and it had been ignored, and the family had departed to Syria the following week.

    I'm frustrated at the family asking for an apology.

    One of those situations where everyone’s got some element of right on their side. And where everyone’s got something wrong.
    There are very few genuinely evil people in this world. Most people are trying to do the best they can in difficult circumstances. And I think - like the story in the US of the boy with the home made clock - there is a desire to err on the side of caution. Even though that caution can look utterly ridiculous from the outside. If we ridicule people who report things that turn out to be nothing, we will end up discouraging people from reporting things that turn out to important.

    We also know little of the circumstances. Did the teacher have other reasons to suspect, or was this a one off? Etc etc.
    Yes perhaps the teacher was alerted by the ticking from the ten year olds anorak. God only knows what would have happened if he failed his times tables, the teacher would have called the riot police.

    Still, before long some bright spark will say the teacher was a ukip voter who assumed all Muslim boys are being groomed to blow us all up.

    Come on hand wringers - which way do you want it?

    The only person wringing his hands about this is you. I don't think anyone else is troubled.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Wanderer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    Actually sounds eminently sensible to me. Teachers have a duty of care and are obliged to report it.

    As they should be.

    Imagine the outcry if it were true, and it had been ignored, and the family had departed to Syria the following week.

    I'm frustrated at the family asking for an apology.

    One of those situations where everyone’s got some element of right on their side. And where everyone’s got something wrong.
    There are very few genuinely evil people in this world. Most people are trying to do the best they can in difficult circumstances. And I think - like the story in the US of the boy with the home made clock - there is a desire to err on the side of caution. Even though that caution can look utterly ridiculous from the outside. If we ridicule people who report things that turn out to be nothing, we will end up discouraging people from reporting things that turn out to important.

    We also know little of the circumstances. Did the teacher have other reasons to suspect, or was this a one off? Etc etc.
    Yes perhaps the teacher was alerted by the ticking from the ten year olds anorak. God only knows what would have happened if he failed his times tables, the teacher would have called the riot police.

    Still, before long some bright spark will say the teacher was a ukip voter who assumed all Muslim boys are being groomed to blow us all up.

    Come on hand wringers - which way do you want it?

    The only person wringing his hands about this is you. I don't think anyone else is troubled.
    The Guardian reported it, why do you think they did?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    edited 2016 20
    What those who wish to lay Trump now need to answer IMHO is who of Trump's base will Sarah Palin's endorsement put off? They've backed him so far throughout all of his wackier and outlandish statements, and his support has continued to grow, so who will now say 'nah - no thanks'?

    As far as I can tell (and the NY Daily News supports this) it will put off those who detest Trump already and think he's a dangerous joke. It might harm him a bit with independents (who weren't put off already) but we're not there yet with the actual Presidential race.

    Conversely, as pointed out downthread, Palin's endorsement might bring supporters, activists and perhaps a little bit more cash.

    So I see this as a neutral/mildly positive for the Republican nomination.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    There's truth in your last sentence, I'm tired of your judgemental hypocrisy, if it comes out that the teacher is a member of BNP your outrage will know no bounds.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Gary Pepworth
    We may laugh at Sarah Palin but I bet you'll find she learnt her oratory from watching VHS tapes of John Prescott.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus'

    I personally struggle to see how the increasingly common, intrusive overreactions of police, educational authorities and social services can be considered part of 'liberal' thinking. I would have thought it was the opposite - at least of the classical-type liberalism you profess to support, Robert.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    FPT:

    More coverage of the SNP's Middle Class Perks:

    The richest Scottish students are 3.53 times more likely to enter university via UCAS than the poorest one, compared with 2.58 in Northern Ireland, 2.56 in Wales and 2.52 in England. For a poor young person wishing to go to university, Scotland is easily the worst country in the UK to grow up.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2016/01/what-snp-doesnt-understand-about-tuition-fees

    The conclusion might be true but does not really follow from that ratio.
    From the article:

    North of the Tweed, the poorer your family is the more debt you graduate with. Scottish students from families earning £16,999 or less will graduate with £5,000 more debt than those from families earning over £34,000, as research from Lucy Hunter Blackburn shows. And students who are assessed as mature and independent of their families (who are disproportionately from poorer backgrounds) get lumbered with £8,000 more in debt than students from the wealthiest families.

    So in summary:

    - Poor Scots are the least likely to go to University compared to their rich peers of any country in the UK and

    - Those that do end up with greater debts the poorer they are.

    Maintaining free university tuition while cutting student grants has amounted to a £20m transfer to middle-class students at the expense of less advantaged ones......In 2013/14 alone, spending on grants for low-income students was cut by 40 per cent.

    Imagine the fuss if the Tories had done this?
    What absolute mince. Are you trying to pretend that if you are poor you are charged more than someone who earns more money. Even a stupid Tory would understand that to be in debt you must borrow, and even a stupid Tory would understand that a person from a poorer family would likely have to borrow more as they would not get free cash from family as richer one would.
    How thick can you be to try and portray this as Scotland Bad.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    Rightwingers have gone from a desire to prosecute homosexuals to a, "why are you telling me about this, why should we care" mindset in a single generation.

    It is undoubtedly progress and not to be denigrated.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598



    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    Your posts regularly show that you're genuinely keen on individual freedom and resistance to petty interference - FWIW it makes me think better of UKIP that it's got members like you, even if we disagree 95% of the time. (That sounds a bit patronising, but isn't meant to be.) I think it's just one part of a decent society, but a crucial one and it's important that we've got people who make it their first priority.


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,832

    All this fuss and bother overnight about the supposed link-up between Trump & Palin has rather obscured the big mover in the GOP nominee betting markets, John Kasich whose odds with a number of bookies have tumbled from 100/1 to the 50/1-66/1 range.
    It's a shame that he starts so far behind in a seemingly hopeless position ..... I've listened to him speaking on a couple of YouTube clips and he's actually quite impressive as well as having an excellent record of achievement in Ohio.
    Realistically though, he has no chance and it's already down to the three clear front runners.

    This is presumably because Kasich is polling well in NH. I think the last poll had him 2nd. A 2nd place in NH keeps him in the game. Although in S Carolina is is nowhere.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    More coverage of the SNP's Middle Class Perks:

    The richest Scottish students are 3.53 times more likely to enter university via UCAS than the poorest one, compared with 2.58 in Northern Ireland, 2.56 in Wales and 2.52 in England. For a poor young person wishing to go to university, Scotland is easily the worst country in the UK to grow up.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2016/01/what-snp-doesnt-understand-about-tuition-fees

    The conclusion might be true but does not really follow from that ratio.
    From the article:

    North of the Tweed, the poorer your family is the more debt you graduate with. Scottish students from families earning £16,999 or less will graduate with £5,000 more debt than those from families earning over £34,000, as research from Lucy Hunter Blackburn shows. And students who are assessed as mature and independent of their families (who are disproportionately from poorer backgrounds) get lumbered with £8,000 more in debt than students from the wealthiest families.

    So in summary:

    - Poor Scots are the least likely to go to University compared to their rich peers of any country in the UK and

    - Those that do end up with greater debts the poorer they are.

    Maintaining free university tuition while cutting student grants has amounted to a £20m transfer to middle-class students at the expense of less advantaged ones......In 2013/14 alone, spending on grants for low-income students was cut by 40 per cent.

    Imagine the fuss if the Tories had done this?
    What absolute mince. Are you trying to pretend that if you are poor you are charged more than someone who earns more money. Even a stupid Tory would understand that to be in debt you must borrow, and even a stupid Tory would understand that a person from a poorer family would likely have to borrow more as they would not get free cash from family as richer one would.
    How thick can you be to try and portray this as Scotland Bad.
    Yet again, it is hypocrisy that damns the SNP policy here.

    Free education is heralded as being good for those who cannot afford it. But, as with most distortions of the market economy, it actually benefits those who would otherwise pay far more.

    There is a concomitant opportunity cost to Scottish society in the lack of social mobility this will perhaps result in.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    edited 2016 20

    Wanderer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    Actually sounds eminently sensible to me. Teachers have a duty of care and are obliged to report it.

    As they should be.

    Imagine the outcry if it were true, and it had been ignored, and the family had departed to Syria the following week.

    I'm frustrated at the family asking for an apology.

    One of those situations where everyone’s got some element of right on their side. And where everyone’s got something wrong.
    There are very few genuinely evil people in this world. Most people are trying to do the best they can in difficult circumstances. And I think - like the story in the US of the boy with the home made clock - there is a desire to err on the side of caution. Even though that caution can look utterly ridiculous from the outside. If we ridicule people who report things that turn out to be nothing, we will end up discouraging people from reporting things that turn out to important.

    We also know little of the circumstances. Did the teacher have other reasons to suspect, or was this a one off? Etc etc.
    Yes perhaps the teacher was alerted by the ticking from the ten year olds anorak. God only knows what would have happened if he failed his times tables, the teacher would have called the riot police.

    Still, before long some bright spark will say the teacher was a ukip voter who assumed all Muslim boys are being groomed to blow us all up.

    Come on hand wringers - which way do you want it?

    The only person wringing his hands about this is you. I don't think anyone else is troubled.
    The Guardian reported it, why do you think they did?
    They need page views?

    Imo it's not worth getting stressed about this type of story. They are always couched in terms that will wind people up, omitting any facts or circumstances that would make the supposedly mad behaviour reasonable. What's going on is that the Guardian is monetising readers' outrage.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    runnymede said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    What is so pathetic about this is the contrast between the heavy-handed response of the authorities to a child's scribblings and the supine and limp-wristed response of the authorities to genuine Islamic extremism practised by adults. Cowards always pick on the weakest I suppose.

    It will only change when parties like Labour and the Liberal Democrats come to the defence of people like David Cameron when he makes a speech trying to tackle this issue. Rather than radio silence or condemning him for 'inflammatory' remarks.

    Such is the defence of privilege by community leaders and the paralysis of the authorities to do anything about "cultural" matters, where they might be bitten back, that nothing will change without very strong political support.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,832
    Palin can be funny. This is apparently a quote from yesterday:

    "[Barack] packs up the teleprompters and the selfie-sticks, and the Greek columns, and all that hopey, changey stuff and he heads on back to Chicago, where I’m sure he can find some community there to organize again."

    Just don't let her near power.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    malcolmg said:

    FPT:

    More coverage of the SNP's Middle Class Perks:

    The richest Scottish students are 3.53 times more likely to enter university via UCAS than the poorest one, compared with 2.58 in Northern Ireland, 2.56 in Wales and 2.52 in England. For a poor young person wishing to go to university, Scotland is easily the worst country in the UK to grow up.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2016/01/what-snp-doesnt-understand-about-tuition-fees

    The conclusion might be true but does not really follow from that ratio.
    From the article:

    North of the Tweed, the poorer your family is the more debt you graduate with. Scottish students from families earning £16,999 or less will graduate with £5,000 more debt than those from families earning over £34,000, as research from Lucy Hunter Blackburn shows. And students who are assessed as mature and independent of their families (who are disproportionately from poorer backgrounds) get lumbered with £8,000 more in debt than students from the wealthiest families.

    So in summary:

    - Poor Scots are the least likely to go to University compared to their rich peers of any country in the UK and

    - Those that do end up with greater debts the poorer they are.

    Maintaining free university tuition while cutting student grants has amounted to a £20m transfer to middle-class students at the expense of less advantaged ones......In 2013/14 alone, spending on grants for low-income students was cut by 40 per cent.

    Imagine the fuss if the Tories had done this?
    What absolute mince. Are you trying to pretend that if you are poor you are charged more than someone who earns more money. Even a stupid Tory would understand that to be in debt you must borrow, and even a stupid Tory would understand that a person from a poorer family would likely have to borrow more as they would not get free cash from family as richer one would.
    How thick can you be to try and portray this as Scotland Bad.
    Not as thick as you who continues to not understand the difference between SNP BAD and Scotland, and in this specific case their betrayal of the poor.

    As we saw with the Forth Road Bridge "free stuff" costs - in the case of Scottish education about £20 million a year transferred from the poor to the rich.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Oh dear, how will the Zoomers cope with this one?

    The surge in support, before and after the referendum, has also seen the independence movement grow significantly. As the Nationalist canvas has widened, it has encompassed many more groupings than simply the SNP. That’s a good thing for the campaign. However, despite both Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP riding high, there’s a small section of support that sees any criticism as being akin to treason.
    Condemn the author? Oh, wait...

    http://m.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14215734.Kenny_MacAskill__Not_all_criticism_of_the_SNP_is_akin_to_treason/
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning all

    Teehee! Trump & Palin. Thats frightened the PB Left, Right and Centre. Now all together; boos to Trump and Palin. ;)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    As we saw with the Forth Road Bridge "free stuff" costs - in the case of Scottish education about £20 million a year transferred from the poor to the rich.

    But that's a good thing, remember. Lots of well educated posh Scots to run the civil service...
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    'It will only change when parties like Labour and the Liberal Democrats come to the defence of people like David Cameron when he makes a speech trying to tackle this issue'

    I know you are keen to talk up the PM's recent remarks but that is all they were - words. I agree there is a large part of the political and bureaucratic establishment that has problems even with empty rhetoric on these topics, but a bit of triangulation and nudge politics from the PM is not going to improve the underlying situation.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
    You're just fine with declining social mobility in Scotland - we get it - it's a small price to pay to avoid criticism of the SNP.

    Some of us are not.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited 2016 20

    A newer German poll which looks more normal, so the INSA 12.5% may have been an outlier as I suggested, though AfD up to 10 here too:

    http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/forsa.htm

    Ahah! Our Nick still trusts the polls, when it suits him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2016 20

    That Palin speech was very strange. Incoherent would be too kind.

    The thing is to us in the UK it sounds bonkers, I bet to the target market in Iowa it went down a storm.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492



    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    Your posts regularly show that you're genuinely keen on individual freedom and resistance to petty interference - FWIW it makes me think better of UKIP that it's got members like you, even if we disagree 95% of the time. (That sounds a bit patronising, but isn't meant to be.) I think it's just one part of a decent society, but a crucial one and it's important that we've got people who make it their first priority.


    Nick, I can assure the majority of ukip supporters are like me in their distrust of govt and it's motivation.

    The freedom of individuals must always be superior to the power of the state. I'm naive enough to admit that's what I thought "liberals" agreed with, they clearly don't.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @George_Osborne: Great stats just out: new record employment rate (74%), more women in work than ever & unemployment rate at lowest level in 10 years (5.1%)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Might come up at PMQs...

    @dwppressoffice: Female employment rate is at its highest since records began in 1971 #getbritainworking https://t.co/GOkl0rrKZx
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2016 20

    Gary Pepworth
    We may laugh at Sarah Palin but I bet you'll find she learnt her oratory from watching VHS tapes of John Prescott.

    Oddly enough, Palin actually has one of the nicest-sounding accents of any American politician IMO, even if she's often incoherent when speaking.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838



    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    Your posts regularly show that you're genuinely keen on individual freedom and resistance to petty interference - FWIW it makes me think better of UKIP that it's got members like you, even if we disagree 95% of the time. (That sounds a bit patronising, but isn't meant to be.) I think it's just one part of a decent society, but a crucial one and it's important that we've got people who make it their first priority.


    Nick, I can assure the majority of ukip supporters are like me in their distrust of govt and it's motivation.

    The freedom of individuals must always be superior to the power of the state. I'm naive enough to admit that's what I thought "liberals" agreed with, they clearly don't.
    Including the freedom of individuals to live where they wish on the planet?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @ONS · 4m4 minutes ago
    For Sep-Nov 2015 wages up 2.0% on a year earlier including bonuses, & 1.9% excluding bonuses http://ow.ly/XiTs0

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    With today's economic numbers, this might also get an airing

    @swingaleg: Let's all attend MaoDonnell's economics seminar. Forget the fact he was sacked for financial incompetence.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
    You're just fine with declining social mobility in Scotland - we get it - it's a small price to pay to avoid criticism of the SNP.

    Some of us are not.
    Except the proportion of poorest students attending university has increased under the SNP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,755
    Patrick said:

    On topic: Not gonna happen. Trump is WAY smarter than his detractors give him credit for. He's played the process and the system pretty much perfectly to date and he knows where his voters are. Palin helps the nomination and secure some votes at the GE. But he will also know that to win the GE he needs the 'sensible' vote too. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he nominated Rubio as his running mate or a similar 'don't scare the horses' player onto his ticket.

    As @rcs1000 has pointed out, Rubio is more of a conservative than both Trump and Palin !
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It was a fridge magnet speech. Words in a random jumble. Haven't forgotten her really long one when she withdrew. Same thing with lots of Hell Yes.

    I don't mind that end of US politics, it's their Ukip. She just talks gibberish.

    That Palin speech was very strange. Incoherent would be too kind.

    The thing is to us in the UK it sounds bonkers, I bet to the target market in Iowa it went down a storm.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,450
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/12109225/Nearly-all-diesel-cars-exceed-emissions-limits-on-public-roads.html

    It's not looking good for the European car manufacturers given how deeply they have invested in diesel engines.

    This is also why our expected levels of pollution in London have never matched real readings. The only way to clean London's air is to get diesel cars off the road over the next five years and basically make driving diesel cars and vans unaffordable in London. Shift the market to hybrids, plug-in hybrids and EVs.

    As I was leaving Sony there was extensive R&D into non-lithium based battery technology, I read in the Nikkei that they have had a massive break through for a Magnesium based battery which will allow for a nearly unlimited number of recharge cycles and 80% of the power density of current Li-Po batteries we use in cars and other technology. The government needs to start looking at incentives for Japanese companies to base their battery manufacturing in Britain for easy exports to Europe and very strong IP protection that they wouldn't get in China.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
    Back on the forklift Malky. Those pallets won't stack themselves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2016 20
    Scott_P said:

    Might come up at PMQs...

    @dwppressoffice: Female employment rate is at its highest since records began in 1971 #getbritainworking https://t.co/GOkl0rrKZx

    Not from JJ though.....We will be treated to more bollocks from Sue from Stockport. Lets she can top, evil Tories bedroom tax means can't move when I retire......spareroom subsidy doesn't apply to retired people, TAXI FOR JEZ....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,287
    edited 2016 20
    From the Graun article linked by @Plato_Says:

    "making pretty much the same speech to the same fringe meeting for 30 years"

    Nailed it, as they say. And still making it.

    Meanwhile, does John McConnell have Margaret Beckett's children hostage? What a bizarre R4 interview. She was evidently troubled by some of the well-asked questions by Mishal Hussein but inexplicably obfuscated.

    @blackburn63 has it right. Something is pretty wrong with any of our society, our educational establishments, our teaching profession, or our anti-extremist measures if the police are called to the house of a 10-yr old who looks to have made a(n easily verifiable) spelling mistake (or, alternatively, is the offspring of the dumbest terrorists on the planet which, as they say, is a tail event).

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,755

    All this fuss and bother overnight about the supposed link-up between Trump & Palin has rather obscured the big mover in the GOP nominee betting markets, John Kasich whose odds with a number of bookies have tumbled from 100/1 to the 50/1-66/1 range.
    It's a shame that he starts so far behind in a seemingly hopeless position ..... I've listened to him speaking on a couple of YouTube clips and he's actually quite impressive as well as having an excellent record of achievement in Ohio.
    Realistically though, he has no chance and it's already down to the three clear front runners.

    This is presumably because Kasich is polling well in NH. I think the last poll had him 2nd. A 2nd place in NH keeps him in the game. Although in S Carolina is is nowhere.
    The Kasich surge is quite recent in New Hampshire. When was the last South Carolina poll taken ?

    I'm letting my long Kasich position ride personally, but not adding to it at sub 100-1.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I agree. And she's got a certain crumpet factor.
    AndyJS said:

    Gary Pepworth
    We may laugh at Sarah Palin but I bet you'll find she learnt her oratory from watching VHS tapes of John Prescott.

    Oddly enough, Palin actually has one of the nicest-sounding accents of any American politician IMO, even if she's often incoherent when speaking.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,138
    Mr. Topping, some terrorists are very stupid. Remember the recent case where a chap got caught after tweeting about what he was going to do?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,755
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
    You're just fine with declining social mobility in Scotland - we get it - it's a small price to pay to avoid criticism of the SNP.

    Some of us are not.
    Except the proportion of poorest students attending university has increased under the SNP.
    Now now Alistair, Carlotta knows what's best for Scotland.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    That Palin speech was very strange. Incoherent would be too kind.

    The thing is to us in the UK it sounds bonkers, I bet to the target market in Iowa it went down a storm.
    The whole point with understanding Palin is that she doesn't speak English; she speaks American. And the Americanese she speaks is the mid western type, which is a language that is breaking off from it's old english roots in a very strange way.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,022
    Indian batsmen thumping Aussie bowlers all over the place at Canberra. Smallish ground of course.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2016 20

    Scott_P said:

    Might come up at PMQs...

    @dwppressoffice: Female employment rate is at its highest since records began in 1971 #getbritainworking https://t.co/GOkl0rrKZx

    Not from JJ though.....We will be treated to more bollocks from Sue from Stockport. Lets she can top, evil Tories bedroom tax means can't move when I retire......spareroom subsidy doesn't apply to retired people, TAXI FOR JEZ....
    JihadiJez or JossiasJessop? Yeah, obvious, but I suffered a moment of dislocation...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    This is the society we live in now, teachers call in the police who interview a 10 year old over a spelling mistake.
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/20/i-live-in-a-terrorist-house-police-speak-to-muslim-boy-10-over-spelling-error

    Terrace and terrorist aren't that similar :p
    Social services were involved too. Im not sure who to direct my anger at, the police, teachers or social services.

    I'll settle for the ridiculous environment successive governments have created by treating citizens as objects for their amusement.

    MI5 probably rely on even more bizzare tip offs ;)
    Nah they're too busy being gay friendly.
    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/19/mi5-comes-out-top-stonewall-list-gay-friendly-employers

    I mean what the fuck is all that about, who gives a toss if somebody is gay. Just go to work and do your job, nobody is interested in who you go on holiday with.

    I would have thought that was obvious.

    Historically, a very large number of traitors in our security services were blackmailed as a result of their homosexuality. By making it clear that being gay is not a problem, it dramatically lowers the risk that someone will be able to be blackmailed.
    I still don't know how making it clear being gay is not a problem is newsworthy. Blackmailing gays was decades ago, Stonewall do themselves no favours with this nonsense.

    People are people, being gay friendly is a nonsense, it implies going out of the way to accommodate a section of society which is ridiculous.

    I know employers where being publicly gay would be a problem.

    And how would you think "gay friendliness" would manifest itself?

    The truth is that the security services want to know EVERYTHING about their employees. If you discourage reporting of who your partner is, then that's an employee who's lying to you. You do understand how corrosive that is, right?
    Exactly so. This is about integrity. If your employer is someone who gives out the message, inadvertently and subliminally maybe, that you cannot be honest about yourself, then that is a very bad message to give out. It undermines what else you may say about honesty and integrity. And integrity surely includes how you behave with your staff and with your colleagues.

    This applies to all employers not just the security services, of course. Criminal gangs would be delighted to find someone in a bank whom they could blackmail, because they are afraid to come out to their employer.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,287

    Mr. Topping, some terrorists are very stupid. Remember the recent case where a chap got caught after tweeting about what he was going to do?

    That is true. Perhaps their homelife was something like this (apologies for my near-fixation on Four Lions).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-lJhKXBBbs
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:



    Establishing government policy as the causal factor for these discrepancies is very tricky indeed.

    Its all a big coincidence?



    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/27/debt-burden-scotlands-poorest-university-students-record-high
    I was referring to the debate around the number of economically disadvantaged youngsters who attend university. And Scottish students are surely leaving with less debt than their English counterparts, no?
    Correct, despite Scottish degrees being a year longer than England (4 years rather than 3) the average English debt is 10 grand higher than for Scottish students over the life of the degree.
    Scotland hating Carlotta was just using the usual Tory lies to denigrate Scotland. These insecure exiles seem to hold grudges against the country of their birth for some reason. They try desperately to impress their chums and try to feel they have succeeded in life.
    You're just fine with declining social mobility in Scotland - we get it - it's a small price to pay to avoid criticism of the SNP.

    Some of us are not.
    Except the proportion of poorest students attending university has increased under the SNP.
    At a slower rate than the proportion of poorest students attending university in England has increased under the Tories?

    Are you happy to be doing a worse job than the Tories?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,738
    edited 2016 20
    Meanwhile Mutti Merkel looks likes she could just be about to gain the reputation as the person who killed Schengen and further integration.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12108806/Germany-should-close-its-borders-to-refugees-Angela-Merkels-own-transport-minister-says.html
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,755
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    Well he could embargo Mexico, China and drive Apple completely out the country. Now I know some of those things are nose/cut/face/spite but well...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,450
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Meanwhile Mutti Merkel looks likes she could just be about to gain the reputation as the person who killed Schengen and further integration.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12108806/Germany-should-close-its-borders-to-refugees-Angela-Merkels-own-transport-minister-says.html

    She's also the woman who could well be responsible for the UK narrowly voting to leave the EU.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Wanderer said:



    Terrorist links? It was a ten year old boy who made a spelling mistake.

    Intern every Muslim I say, just in case.

    Jesus wept, as a ukip member I'm supposed to be the one pointing fingers with knowing glances, where do you lot get off ffs?

    Your posts regularly show that you're genuinely keen on individual freedom and resistance to petty interference - FWIW it makes me think better of UKIP that it's got members like you, even if we disagree 95% of the time. (That sounds a bit patronising, but isn't meant to be.) I think it's just one part of a decent society, but a crucial one and it's important that we've got people who make it their first priority.


    Nick, I can assure the majority of ukip supporters are like me in their distrust of govt and it's motivation.

    The freedom of individuals must always be superior to the power of the state. I'm naive enough to admit that's what I thought "liberals" agreed with, they clearly don't.
    Including the freedom of individuals to live where they wish on the planet?
    Now even you don't want that, unless you're happy to have people stay indefinitely at your place.

    You see this is where liberalism trips itself up, it always applies to other people.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MaxPB said:

    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.

    Mexican immigrants...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.
    :lol:

    I'm sure that's exactly what Trump's voters are looking for him to do
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited 2016 20
    So India trading at 1/14 with 100 runs at over 6 an over to go. It's cricket Jim, but not as I know it.

    EDIT: now 1/25
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,962
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.
    That looks like a plan.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    I love the way that when you type "thinking man's" into Google it automatically turns it into "thinking man's crumpet" and puts up a selection of Joan Bakewell images.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    I agree. And she's got a certain crumpet factor.

    AndyJS said:

    Gary Pepworth
    We may laugh at Sarah Palin but I bet you'll find she learnt her oratory from watching VHS tapes of John Prescott.

    Oddly enough, Palin actually has one of the nicest-sounding accents of any American politician IMO, even if she's often incoherent when speaking.
    In fact, she seems to have lost even that. She seems chubbier now, certainly not the Milftastic figure of 2008.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    Whats all the above got to do with the LIBERAL consensus making a black pit of the western world.?

    Only when and if the Donald does become POTUS, can we judge him on his actual actions and policies.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.
    Re Apple -- the other controversial thing Apple (and other US companies) are doing is holding billions in cash overseas because if they bring it home, they will have to pay tax. Americans (or many of them) think Apple should pay tax in the US because it is an American company. We think Apple should pay tax here on British sales of ipads and iphones. Apple takes the view it would rather not pay tax anywhere. HMRC sort of agrees, hence the Damehood for the boss.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    Well he could embargo Mexico, China and drive Apple completely out the country. Now I know some of those things are nose/cut/face/spite but well...
    There must be plenty of countries who'd jump at the chance to host Apple's corporate and design facilities.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,450
    Also, he seems to think that Apple make their own phones, which they don't. They farm out manufacturing of the phones and components to a whole bunch of companies, just like every company out there. The most recent product I know the details about is the PS4, about 5% of global PS4s out there were assembled by EMCS (Sony's manufacturing company) and that was basically the first run because they didn't want the design and specifications to leak by farming it out to Hon Hai. Out of the 340 separate components that make up the PS4, only about 20 are sourced from one of Sony's own subsidiaries, the rest are purchased from other companies.

    Apple is nothing more than a research and design group with a massive sales and marketing department. It's a great business model as other companies take on the risk of manufacturing.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MikeK said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What a weird world we live in, on a blog where I've been accused of racism, xenophobia and homophobia (with no basis in truth incidentally) I find myself on the side of gays and Muslims whilst arguing with "liberals".

    There was me thinking people were people, to be treated equally, it seems the saying about liberals and illiberalism is true.

    Im off to be non gay friendly and check if Muslim boys are living in a Mudrassa.

    Ciao.

    No blackburn63

    You are on the side of outrage. No news story escapes your anger an exasperation at the world. You want something, anything, to shake up the cosy liberal consensus.
    And why not FFS.. The so called "Consensus" is making a a black pit of the western world.
    Let's take Trump.

    He has promised, among other things, that:

    * He would make Apple relocate its manufacturing back to the US
    and
    * He would build a wall with Mexico that the Mexicans would pay for

    Neither of those things is going to happen. He's an intelligent guy. He knows that he cannot make the Mexicans spend 20% of their GDP on building a wall. He knows that he could not possibly force Apple to end manufacturing in China.

    Let's imagine Trump becomes President. If you think people were disappointed with Obama, how disappointed do you think they'll be with Trump when the wall is not paid for by the grateful Mexicans and Apple's iPhones keep being made in China?
    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.
    That looks like a plan.
    You mean that looks like a plan that most PB Trump haters would like to be true.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,450
    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    He could entice Apple to onshore manufacturing by eliminating worker rights and minimum pay levels. So what if those workers at Apple's shiny new factories in South Dakota only make $0.80 per hour. I'm sure someone will be willing to take the job.

    Mexican immigrants...
    How will they get over the wall which 40% of their taxes have just paid for though!
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    I agree. And she's got a certain crumpet factor.

    AndyJS said:

    Gary Pepworth
    We may laugh at Sarah Palin but I bet you'll find she learnt her oratory from watching VHS tapes of John Prescott.

    Oddly enough, Palin actually has one of the nicest-sounding accents of any American politician IMO, even if she's often incoherent when speaking.
    Donald's crumpet.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Stonewall explain in their report how they judge gay friendliness among employers.

    There are many workplaces where gay men and lesbians are not made particularly welcome, whatever the formal policies of the organisation. It can vary within organisations. One point I have often made internally is that the experience of a very senior partner in London is likely to be very different from someone working in the post room in Leeds. When policies are set by the former they are unlikely to appreciate the practical problems of the latter.

    Sounds a bit Leedsist to me Alastair. I really don't see how being gay is either a help or a hindrance in any job.


    Stonewall explain in their report how they judge gay friendliness among employers.

    There are many workplaces where gay men and lesbians are not made particularly welcome, whatever the formal policies of the organisation. It can vary within organisations. One point I have often made internally is that the experience of a very senior partner in London is likely to be very different from someone working in the post room in Leeds. When policies are set by the former they are unlikely to appreciate the practical problems of the latter.

    Sounds a bit Leedsist to me Alastair. I really don't see how being gay is either a help or a hindrance in any job.


    Dirty Leeds.

    It helps having workers who are comfortable in their own skins in the workplace. Interestingly, younger members of staff (gay and straight) tell us that they strongly value working for a firm that recognises that.
    Yes - we have had the same reaction where I work. We've recently had a Diversity Week which covered a range of topics and the response to the individual events and the strong support for them from the CEO has been very good. Employee surveys consistently show that this, the volunteering that is done and similar engagement with employees and the community around us is one of the positives of working here. All of these are factors which go into the decision to join an employer and, more importantly, to keep on working there.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Wanderer said:


    Including the freedom of individuals to live where they wish on the planet?

    Now even you don't want that, unless you're happy to have people stay indefinitely at your place.

    You see this is where liberalism trips itself up, it always applies to other people.
    No, I don't want it, but I also don't affect to be a libertarian.

    If the freedom of the individual is paramount then by what right does the state (or anyone else) seek to stop someone living here, provided they obey the laws?

    Are not you simply calling for a small state except where it suits you otherwise, where you want a massive one.
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