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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson says 2016 could be a good year for the GOP to

SystemSystem Posts: 12,222
edited December 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson says 2016 could be a good year for the GOP to pick a loser

Only one person has set the race for next year’s GOP nomination alight and that person is Donald Trump. Behind his blaze of controversy, energy, self-publicity and populism lies a field strewn with the bewilderment of his rivals: how has he lasted so long? Why have his gaffes not brought him down? How can he be effectively taken on? As yet, they have no answers.

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Comments

  • Demonstrating to a new generation how counter-productive that indulgence is might well pay dividends for decades to come.
    Trump has a lot of heretical positions for Republicans - I'd have thought the base would blame his defeat on those.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Fifth!
  • Morning all & many thanks Mr Herdson.


    US/UK cultural divide grows apace and is personified by Donald Trump. I don't get the appeal.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572
    Interesting as always from David. EiT is right, though, that Trump is a maverick much more than he's reliably right-wing, and GOP voters could well conclude if he loses that what they need is a new Goldwater.

    What Trump gets is that in a crowded field he really just needs to stand out with any old populist themes. The other candidates, Bush especially, are trying to have rounded platforms when they ought to be picking a couple of fights over major conservative themes.
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    The quasi-revolutionaries of the Corbyn-MacDonnell-Abbott clique are building up their own funeral pyre of contradictions if they try to quote Mao Zedong and Enver Hoxha within weeks of each other. The latter disagreed with the former, in respect of a key part of the Corbynite strategy of mobilising the youthful and vigorous fury of the masses (the party membership) against the sclerotic and ossified complacency of the degenerate bourgeois hierarchy (the PLP):

    "The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution was neither a revolution, nor great, nor cultural, and, in particular, not in the least proletarian."
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    "This is a wrong course the Chinese comrades are trying to lead us on to, it is an opportunist road of vacillation and concessions to the Khrushchev traitor group which finds itself in grave difficulties, and is intriguing in order to escape defeat."
  • vikvik Posts: 159
    I think Trump has a reasonable chance of defeating Clinton.

    In an uncertain economic & political time, it is quite possible that the US voting public will turn to a 'strongman' who will 'get things done'.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,750
    Trump vs Sanders? I realise the lightning of electoral unlikelihood is unlikely to strike twice, but Sanders as POTUS and Corbyn as PM .........

    To where would the hysterical right emigrate? Argentina?

    I 'm allowed to dream, colleagues, I'm allowed to dream!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    Whilst we witter on about a third runway at Heathrow, it seems the Danes are much more ambitious with their engineering.

    http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/total-immersion-the-worlds-longest-immersed-tunnel/1021406.article

    It'll be interesting to see if the Germans sign off on the project.

    We can - and should - do Boris Island. Pain in the short term, gain in the long term.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html
    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    vik said:

    I think Trump has a reasonable chance of defeating Clinton.

    In an uncertain economic & political time, it is quite possible that the US voting public will turn to a 'strongman' who will 'get things done'.

    You got that off your chest vik ....

    And welcome.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,564

    Demonstrating to a new generation how counter-productive that indulgence is might well pay dividends for decades to come.
    Trump has a lot of heretical positions for Republicans - I'd have thought the base would blame his defeat on those.

    And that goes a long way to explain why Trump polls far better among independents/Republican leaners than he does among conservatives.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2015
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

    This is the thing about freedom: When you try to take away other people's, you usually also end up taking away your own.
  • Interesting as always from David. EiT is right, though, that Trump is a maverick much more than he's reliably right-wing, and GOP voters could well conclude if he loses that what they need is a new Goldwater.

    What Trump gets is that in a crowded field he really just needs to stand out with any old populist themes. The other candidates, Bush especially, are trying to have rounded platforms when they ought to be picking a couple of fights over major conservative themes.

    I'd look at it the other way round: Goldwater was a maverick who happened to be right wing (in some respects; in others, it was the Dixie Democrat who was by far the furthest to the right at the time).
  • Sean_F said:

    Demonstrating to a new generation how counter-productive that indulgence is might well pay dividends for decades to come.
    Trump has a lot of heretical positions for Republicans - I'd have thought the base would blame his defeat on those.
    And that goes a long way to explain why Trump polls far better among independents/Republican leaners than he does among conservatives.

    That was a puzzle, you may be onto something.
    Of the 10 liberal policies, this one stood out:
    "He's in favor of a ban on assault weapons."
  • Sean_F said:

    Demonstrating to a new generation how counter-productive that indulgence is might well pay dividends for decades to come.
    Trump has a lot of heretical positions for Republicans - I'd have thought the base would blame his defeat on those.
    And that goes a long way to explain why Trump polls far better among independents/Republican leaners than he does among conservatives.
    That was a puzzle, you may be onto something.
    Of the 10 liberal policies, this one stood out:
    "He's in favor of a ban on assault weapons."

    A practical definition of a US conservative is: won't cross the Atlantic because there's no right to bear arms on this side of the pond. Many of them are simply gagging to commit "justifiable homicide"

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    Interesting analysis, although I'm not sure about the concluding point. It seems like nothing demonstrates points to electorates sometimes, they can remain remarkably stubborn.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Tokyo, it's not freedom, it's welfare.

    That said, I agree it's a nonsense of a policy. But then, I think the EU is a daft organisation.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2015

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Tokyo, it's not freedom, it's welfare.

    That said, I agree it's a nonsense of a policy. But then, I think the EU is a daft organisation.

    It's freedom to move around. The same people would have been able to get welfare if they'd stayed in once place.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Tokyo, it's not freedom, it's welfare.

    That said, I agree it's a nonsense of a policy. But then, I think the EU is a daft organisation.

    It's freedom to move around. The same people would have been able to get welfare if they'd stayed in once place.
    Not if MD were running things they wouldn't.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Why should the British taxpayer pay for EU citizens to move around..let them fund themselves..There are no benefits for me from the Italian Government..
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Welcome to PB, Mr @vik
    vik said:

    I think Trump has a reasonable chance of defeating Clinton.

    In an uncertain economic & political time, it is quite possible that the US voting public will turn to a 'strongman' who will 'get things done'.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well quite. I can see this going straight into bin now it's escaped into the wild.
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2015
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.






  • Mr. Abroad, care to show me where I said people shouldn't be allowed to travel overseas?
  • Mr. Abroad, care to show me where I said people shouldn't be allowed to travel overseas?

    Don't come it. You know full well what I meant.



  • Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.




    But of course they can have votes, because they're mostly Tories. Or have I missed something? (I often do.)

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

    Seems perfectly ok to me - I think the measure should apply to everyone - it's the norm here in Spain - no contributions, no benefits.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.








    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

  • Mr. Abroad, no, I don't.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Similar to the EHIC, couldn't we have a system where EU citizens can claim the same benefits as they would receive in their home state?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Blue_rog said:

    Similar to the EHIC, couldn't we have a system where EU citizens can claim the same benefits as they would receive in their home state?

    Given the variations between countries that does make sense.
  • Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.
  • On topic, the willingness of any party's supporters to ascribe blame for a defeat to specifics that suit their ideological beliefs is almost limitless. So the Republicans should find the best candidate they can.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    Surely, faced with decades of Presidents chosen from amongst political dynasties and the deeply underwhelming, a raft of America (I guess largely amongst those near half of Americans who have given up on democracy by staying home) see in Trump someone who might actually DO SOMETHING about their deep mistrust of Islam. Without taking their guns away.

    No-one else is talking to this constituency. Probably because they are appalled at having to say anything.

    And in practice, it will matter not. Barely fifty percent of Americans will vote in their first female President in their history, and the ever reducing number of Americans who bother will get a warm glow about themselves for doing so...
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited December 2015
    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.

    The principle is already firmly established in the Habitual Residence Test (albeit a briefer length of time) and has been applied for over twenty years.

    Someone who has spent many years of their lives paying no tax in Britain is already denied the right to waltz back in and start claiming, as are all the UK passport holders that inherit the status from former commonwealth arrangements or through parental linkage.

    Short term absences would easily be covered by a linking rule.

    The big silent secret is how would they apply it to the NHS, where ex-pats often just pop back to avail themselves of treatments they have long since stopped contributing taxes towards.

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?

    Right. I can't see "think of the poor (returning) expats" moving many votes.
  • Mr. Abroad, no, I don't.

    We were discussing welfare.

    Welfare is only a State-sponsored compulsory insurance scheme. I see no difference between an expat divorcée returning to Blighty and a 16-year-old entering the labour market for the first time.

    You might as well say that people who have never smoked shouldn't have to pay for the health-care of smokers and ex-smokers.


  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    Charles Moore sticks the black spot on Merkel, not Trump http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12046397/Angela-Merkel-is-doing-more-damage-to-the-future-of-the-West-than-Donald-Trump.html
    ...Alas, there are two true things lying behind his idiotic policy suggestion. The first is that the problem is about Muslims. The second is that our “elected representatives” do not know what to do about it...'It is not as if our institutions refuse to have any public doctrine at all – look at the preaching against climate change, or racism. If Mr Trump starts shouting, or Tommy Robinson, formerly of the English Defence League, pops up, the authorities all know how to try to squash their “unacceptable” thoughts.

    But if Muslim leaders say that the plight of their brethren in Britain today is like that of Jews in Germany in the Thirties, or that no Muslim should serve in the British armed services against a Muslim country, no one jumps on them. It is not only Jeremy Corbyn, dining last night with what would be better called the Stop the West Coalition, who devoutly believes the narrative of our “Islamophobia”: it is almost the official orthodoxy.

    There is a tremendous reluctance to study the genealogy of the harmful ideas. None of the Islamist organisations named above is, so far as I know, actively engaged in promoting violence in this country, but all of them preach extremism which creates the mental space in which violence can breed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,005
    edited December 2015

    We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.

    Fleeing war? What is war in this context? Is it religious persecution? Is it their sexuality? That is currently a driver for many refugees. Would you take them? Would you take in refugees from one faction of Islam pursuing another faction? Not making a snide point. Just curious on how you see the boundaries. It seems to be a question Europe is grappling with too.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?

    Agreed. I live in Spain and have to prove private medical cover until I reach state pension age. Should be the same in the UK.
  • Mr. Abroad, ok, cheers for the clarification.

    [The smoker example may be a bad one, as cigarettes are taxed so heavily that, even considering healthcare costs, smokers are net contributors to the Treasury].
  • felix said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?
    Agreed. I live in Spain and have to prove private medical cover until I reach state pension age. Should be the same in the UK.

    Why does Spain exemplify perfection? Because you choose to live there?

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.

    Fleeing war? What is war in this context? Is it religious persecution? Is it their sexuality? That is currently a driver for many refugees. Would you take them? Would you take in refugees from one faction of Islam pursuing another faction? Not making a snide point. Just curious on how you see the boundaries. It seems to be a question Europe is grappling with too.
    It's very difficult, I continually hear politicians talking about "our fair share" while refusing to commit to numbers. "Genuine asylum seekers" has replaced refugees as the expression whereby we have to accommodate more or less anybody who decides they don't like where they currently live. That amounts to millions of people and whether we want to or not we simply can't house and feed them all.

    Tbh I'm not interested in religion, I upset a Christian group by saying I wouldn't give priority to Christians over other religions, I certainly wouldn't give priority based on sexuality.

    Some people will get upset and accuse me of all sorts of things but we're not an enormous Barnardos Care Home, we're a small nation, drowning in debt without the resources and infrastructure to cope with an ever increasing population.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Mr Deacon is most amusing as ever http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/michael-deacon/12046567/Politicians-you-should-all-be-locked-up....html
    Man in suit: Good evening, sir, sorry to trouble you. I wondered whether I could count on your vote. I’m your local parliamentary candidate from the Conservatives: The Party for Hardworking Criminals.

    Prisoner: Not another of you. I’d slam this door in your face if I could open it. Go on, then. What have you ever done for me?

    Man in suit: Well, quite a lot, actually. We’ve cut the number of police officers by 12 per cent since 2010. And we’re getting rid of all those horrible old prisons and building you some lovely new ones.

    Prisoner: Whatever. You’re all the same, you modern career politicians – totally out of touch with how decent, law-breaking people live. Not like in the old days: Jonathan Aitken, Jeffrey Archer, Chris Huhne… Those were politicians you could look up to. I bet you lot have never broken a law in your life.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Bit of a UKIP advert in the Express... Daves Christmas Card doesn't mention Christmas apparently #winterval

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/626106/PC-David-Cameron-Christmas-card-no-reference-Xmas
  • What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976
  • Mr. Abroad, ok, cheers for the clarification.

    [The smoker example may be a bad one, as cigarettes are taxed so heavily that, even considering healthcare costs, smokers are net contributors to the Treasury].

    Cheers

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    "The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements."

    Isn't that a killer for remain anyway. If the British public was bothered about this (I'm not sure they would be), their response would be "change the UK law so we can."

    Are the EU saying ... "You cannot make laws about UK citizens alone, as that's up to the EU."

    Yes, I know they would, but my response and many others would be "F*ck off."

    A gift for out.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Giles Coren is brilliant today - all the other people he'd ban from entering the UK http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4638915.ece
  • Mr. Abroad, no, I don't.

    We were discussing welfare.

    Welfare is only a State-sponsored compulsory insurance scheme. I see no difference between an expat divorcée returning to Blighty and a 16-year-old entering the labour market for the first time.

    You might as well say that people who have never smoked shouldn't have to pay for the health-care of smokers and ex-smokers.
    If national insurance did what it said on the tin, they wouldn't.

    (Though as MD says, they've probably paid it through cig duty anyway).
  • We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.

    Fleeing war? What is war in this context? Is it religious persecution? Is it their sexuality? That is currently a driver for many refugees. Would you take them? Would you take in refugees from one faction of Islam pursuing another faction? Not making a snide point. Just curious on how you see the boundaries. It seems to be a question Europe is grappling with too.
    It's very difficult, I continually hear politicians talking about "our fair share" while refusing to commit to numbers. "Genuine asylum seekers" has replaced refugees as the expression whereby we have to accommodate more or less anybody who decides they don't like where they currently live. That amounts to millions of people and whether we want to or not we simply can't house and feed them all.

    Tbh I'm not interested in religion, I upset a Christian group by saying I wouldn't give priority to Christians over other religions, I certainly wouldn't give priority based on sexuality.

    Some people will get upset and accuse me of all sorts of things but we're not an enormous Barnardos Care Home, we're a small nation, drowning in debt without the resources and infrastructure to cope with an ever increasing population.

    Who do we owe this debt to that we're "drowning" in? I think you'll find most of is lent to the Government by citizens.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    OT. Good morning all.

    The thread seems to be a reasonable read. However, the two main animals in the zoo have almost become one - producing a Donkiphant or an Elidonk - that most people cannot tell the difference: much like Labour and Tory in Britain.

    While it's true that most new immigrants have no time for Trump. Many of the old immigrants (the rest of the population) have found in Trump a voice that describes their feelings and deep beliefs.

    Hillary, if elected, will see the completion of the present madness of the American Elite, started by Bush and continued by Obama; and who knows how that will end? But however it ends it will be a misery for the U.S. and the world.

    I apologise if the above is a bit disjointed, but that the mood I'm in.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    He's right IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to see Merkel's party's ratings go below 35% very soon.

    Charles Moore sticks the black spot on Merkel, not Trump http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12046397/Angela-Merkel-is-doing-more-damage-to-the-future-of-the-West-than-Donald-Trump.html

    ...Alas, there are two true things lying behind his idiotic policy suggestion. The first is that the problem is about Muslims. The second is that our “elected representatives” do not know what to do about it...'It is not as if our institutions refuse to have any public doctrine at all – look at the preaching against climate change, or racism. If Mr Trump starts shouting, or Tommy Robinson, formerly of the English Defence League, pops up, the authorities all know how to try to squash their “unacceptable” thoughts.

    But if Muslim leaders say that the plight of their brethren in Britain today is like that of Jews in Germany in the Thirties, or that no Muslim should serve in the British armed services against a Muslim country, no one jumps on them. It is not only Jeremy Corbyn, dining last night with what would be better called the Stop the West Coalition, who devoutly believes the narrative of our “Islamophobia”: it is almost the official orthodoxy.

    There is a tremendous reluctance to study the genealogy of the harmful ideas. None of the Islamist organisations named above is, so far as I know, actively engaged in promoting violence in this country, but all of them preach extremism which creates the mental space in which violence can breed.

    Charles Moore sticks the black spot on Merkel, not Trump http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/12046397/Angela-Merkel-is-doing-more-damage-to-the-future-of-the-West-than-Donald-Trump.html

    ...Alas, there are two true things lying behind his idiotic policy suggestion. The first is that the problem is about Muslims. The second is that our “elected representatives” do not know what to do about it...'It is not as if our institutions refuse to have any public doctrine at all – look at the preaching against climate change, or racism. If Mr Trump starts shouting, or Tommy Robinson, formerly of the English Defence League, pops up, the authorities all know how to try to squash their “unacceptable” thoughts.

    ........

    There is a tremendous reluctance to study the genealogy of the harmful ideas. None of the Islamist organisations named above is, so far as I know, actively engaged in promoting violence in this country, but all of them preach extremism which creates the mental space in which violence can breed.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,592
    CD13 said:

    "The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements."

    Isn't that a killer for remain anyway. If the British public was bothered about this (I'm not sure they would be), their response would be "change the UK law so we can."

    Are the EU saying ... "You cannot make laws about UK citizens alone, as that's up to the EU."

    Yes, I know they would, but my response and many others would be "F*ck off."

    A gift for out.

    Yep an absolute gift to out.

    Mind you I think a bigger question for many people would be why are people in working getting benefits anyway....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.

    Fleeing war? What is war in this context? Is it religious persecution? Is it their sexuality? That is currently a driver for many refugees. Would you take them? Would you take in refugees from one faction of Islam pursuing another faction? Not making a snide point. Just curious on how you see the boundaries. It seems to be a question Europe is grappling with too.
    It's very difficult, I continually hear politicians talking about "our fair share" while refusing to commit to numbers. "Genuine asylum seekers" has replaced refugees as the expression whereby we have to accommodate more or less anybody who decides they don't like where they currently live. That amounts to millions of people and whether we want to or not we simply can't house and feed them all.

    Tbh I'm not interested in religion, I upset a Christian group by saying I wouldn't give priority to Christians over other religions, I certainly wouldn't give priority based on sexuality.

    Some people will get upset and accuse me of all sorts of things but we're not an enormous Barnardos Care Home, we're a small nation, drowning in debt without the resources and infrastructure to cope with an ever increasing population.

    Who do we owe this debt to that we're "drowning" in? I think you'll find most of is lent to the Government by citizens.

    Who we owe it to is not the issue, it's in excess of £1.5 trillion and growing all the time. Every party agrees we have to cut the deficit, none are specific about how to do it.

  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    MikeK said:

    OT. Good morning all.

    The thread seems to be a reasonable read. However, the two main animals in the zoo have almost become one - producing a Donkiphant or an Elidonk - that most people cannot tell the difference: much like Labour and Tory in Britain.

    While it's true that most new immigrants have no time for Trump. Many of the old immigrants (the rest of the population) have found in Trump a voice that describes their feelings and deep beliefs.

    Hillary, if elected, will see the completion of the present madness of the American Elite, started by Bush and continued by Obama; and who knows how that will end? But however it ends it will be a misery for the U.S. and the world.

    I apologise if the above is a bit disjointed, but that the mood I'm in.

    If you find Labour and Conservative indistinguishable at present I'm wondering what either party could possibly do to establish a distinction in your mind. Have its candidates appear naked, smothered in molasses?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.
    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709

    Giles Coren is brilliant today - all the other people he'd ban from entering the UK http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4638915.ece

    He should add himself to the list.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..



    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    /like
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?

    Yes, and yet we would continue providing benefits to several hundred thousand failed asylum seekers that we fail to even try to remove, I can see that one going down well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    Nah. It would be shit. Who would the likes of Microsoft . Samsung have copied?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    isam said:

    Bit of a UKIP advert in the Express... Daves Christmas Card doesn't mention Christmas apparently #winterval

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/626106/PC-David-Cameron-Christmas-card-no-reference-Xmas

    However not so for Eid though.....

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/eid-al-adha-2015-david-camerons-message

    My point is the correct name for festivals of whatever religion should be used and I never understand why Christmas is singled out every year for alternative names. We are our own worse enemies etc.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    chestnut said:

    Someone who has spent many years of their lives paying no tax in Britain is already denied the right to waltz back in and start claiming, as are all the UK passport holders that inherit the status from former commonwealth arrangements or through parental linkage.

    Unless I misread you can do exactly that if you have a job. The habitual residence test is largely to cover spongers, and I have absolutely no problem with that. However people returning and getting a job not being eligible for in work benefits seems to be asking for trouble.

  • Jonathan said:

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    Nah. It would be shit. Who would the likes of Microsoft . Samsung have copied?
    Exactly.

    Computers would still be beige boxes sitting on the floor and Nokia would still dominate mobile phones.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,539
    Jonathan said:

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    Nah. It would be shit. Who would the likes of Microsoft . Samsung have copied?
    I know you are trolling, but Apple are the biggest copiers of the lot. Their only traditional strength has been Industrial Design.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.

    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    David Herdson is almost always right but this is a case in which David Herdson is wrong. Some people thought 2010 was a good election to lose but instead it seemed to solidify the victor's worldview as an unchallengable part of national politics. Wouldn't the same happen if Trump won? It may be bad for the Republicans. But it would be shattering for the Democrats, for a large number of whom a Hillary presidency has been kind of the point for the last 16 years. Not to say that Trump is particularly likely to beat Hillary, but just to note that IF he wins, it will not just tear one party apart.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited December 2015

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.

    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,564

    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.

    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

    I'm guessing he's most unpopular in Tower Hamlets, Islington, Hackney, Haringey, Brighton, Oxford, and Cambridge.
  • We should just be honest, the notion that people can arrive here and be given money and housing is absolutely ridiculous, I don't know who introduced it or when but it has to be stopped.

    I exclude refugees, we must be prepared to offer a safe haven for people fleeing war.

    Fleeing war? What is war in this context? Is it religious persecution? Is it their sexuality? That is currently a driver for many refugees. Would you take them? Would you take in refugees from one faction of Islam pursuing another faction? Not making a snide point. Just curious on how you see the boundaries. It seems to be a question Europe is grappling with too.
    It's very difficult, I continually hear politicians talking about "our fair share" while refusing to commit to numbers. "Genuine asylum seekers" has replaced refugees as the expression whereby we have to accommodate more or less anybody who decides they don't like where they currently live. That amounts to millions of people and whether we want to or not we simply can't house and feed them all.

    Tbh I'm not interested in religion, I upset a Christian group by saying I wouldn't give priority to Christians over other religions, I certainly wouldn't give priority based on sexuality.

    Some people will get upset and accuse me of all sorts of things but we're not an enormous Barnardos Care Home, we're a small nation, drowning in debt without the resources and infrastructure to cope with an ever increasing population.

    Who do we owe this debt to that we're "drowning" in? I think you'll find most of is lent to the Government by citizens.

    Who we owe it to is not the issue, it's in excess of £1.5 trillion and growing all the time. Every party agrees we have to cut the deficit, none are specific about how to do it.

    Debt and deficit are two different things. Still, I like your "not the issue" line - must remember it for the next time I'm asked a question I don't have the answer to :)
  • Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...

    Sounds fair enough to me. The prodigal son makes for a great parable but as a nation we shouldn't be killing fatted calves for those who left and for whom things didn't work out so well. Why isn't Mrs Bloggs staying in Spain? Why isn't Mr Bloggs supporting his ex wife and family?

    Expats seem to expect a lot for free. There's no reason why national insurance, like any other form of insurance, should pay out if you let the policy lapse.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?
    Agreed. I live in Spain and have to prove private medical cover until I reach state pension age. Should be the same in the UK.
    Why does Spain exemplify perfection? Because you choose to live there?



    Not at all - it's true of many EU countries that you're expected to contribute for some time before you are eligible for benefits. It's really the UK that is the exception here and the UK is far from perfect. As it happens Spain is perfect for me for many other reasons.
  • Wanderer said:

    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    99% of the public couldn't care less about expats' problems. And I can't see why I should be cosseting those who haven't been contributing to the state's coffers or living in Britain. Shouldn't they be claiming off the state they've made their home?
    Right. I can't see "think of the poor (returning) expats" moving many votes.

    I agree from the UK based public's point of view. The issue might be though that until now Remain have assumed they had the expat British vote in the bag - bearing in mind that most of the expat British community will be able to vote in the referendum. If they now see that they are being thrown to the wolves to satisfy the EU and secure a deal; they may not be so likely to vote in favour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    edited December 2015
    EPG said:

    David Herdson is almost always right but this is a case in which David Herdson is wrong. Some people thought 2010 was a good election to lose but instead it seemed to solidify the victor's worldview as an unchallengable part of national politics. Wouldn't the same happen if Trump won? It may be bad for the Republicans. But it would be shattering for the Democrats, for a large number of whom a Hillary presidency has been kind of the point for the last 16 years. Not to say that Trump is particularly likely to beat Hillary, but just to note that IF he wins, it will not just tear one party apart.

    Yesterday I was teaching citizenship to a Year 9 group. They were more than a bit bewildered by the prospect of a match-up between two elderly people who have repeatedly failed in their chosen fields of endeavour, have been repeatedly investigated by the police, who have no original ideas, and whose only selling points appear to be that they are both wealthy and that one has ovaries and one hates Muslims (I paraphrase a bit, obviously).

    When put that way, of course...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    Indeed - overpriced fashion tech for the rich lefty-liberals and de rigeur at the BBC. tells you all you need to know.
  • Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...
    Sounds fair enough to me. The prodigal son makes for a great parable but as a nation we shouldn't be killing fatted calves for those who left and for whom things didn't work out so well. Why isn't Mrs Bloggs staying in Spain? Why isn't Mr Bloggs supporting his ex wife and family?

    Expats seem to expect a lot for free. There's no reason why national insurance, like any other form of insurance, should pay out if you let the policy lapse.

    The other problem with the proposal is that it is ripe for challenge by the ECJ. As far as the EU has always been concerned where you have lived in the EU should not dictate whether or not you get benefits. Even with a treaty agreement (which isn't going to happen any time soon) the 'discrimination' as some will claim it to be will be enough to allow the ECJ to get involved if anyone cares to mount a challenge.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Petition maps is most revealing! http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114003&area=gb
    Sean_F said:

    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.

    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

    I'm guessing he's most unpopular in Tower Hamlets, Islington, Hackney, Haringey, Brighton, Oxford, and Cambridge.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...

    You seem to be obsessed with entitlement to benefits. People make choices, mistakes have bad luck - your only response is to give them benefits come what may. That is why the welfare bill is so ridiculously high.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Expats seem to expect a lot for free. There's no reason why national insurance, like any other form of insurance, should pay out if you let the policy lapse.

    No reason it should, it just does in many other cases, after 30 years of contributing you can push off abroad from 15 years and come back to a full state pension, and full eligibility to contribution based JSA.

    Personally (even as an expat) I could care less, but politically it seems idiotic. Not giving British Citizens what we freely give to failed asylum seekers, is going to be a gift to the DM tendency and the out campaign. Regardless of what we might think about it, its going to generate a load of court cases as people's lawyers explore the inconsistencies and lots of DM headlines about Mrs Bloggs, 47 being left destitute as her husband runs off with Spanish waitress, 18, while we give the money to former eastern block pickpockets.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Petition maps is most revealing! http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114003&area=gb

    Sean_F said:

    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.

    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

    I'm guessing he's most unpopular in Tower Hamlets, Islington, Hackney, Haringey, Brighton, Oxford, and Cambridge.
    Students, muslims and Guardian readers from NE and SE London.

    They are the bulk and elite in Corbyn's Labour Army.
  • felix said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...
    You seem to be obsessed with entitlement to benefits. People make choices, mistakes have bad luck - your only response is to give them benefits come what may. That is why the welfare bill is so ridiculously high.

    Well, now that the Enoch Powell Fan Club is in full session I think I will attend to the groceries... see you all to-morrow :)


  • The other problem with the proposal is that it is ripe for challenge by the ECJ. As far as the EU has always been concerned where you have lived in the EU should not dictate whether or not you get benefits. Even with a treaty agreement (which isn't going to happen any time soon) the 'discrimination' as some will claim it to be will be enough to allow the ECJ to get involved if anyone cares to mount a challenge.

    You can discriminate against your own people in some circumstances. That's how the Scots can charge the English for tuition fees.

    But this presumably will either need some legal changes in the EU, have additional features or apply only to expats outside the EU.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited December 2015
    Hmm, Guide Dogs, British Heart Foundation, Sue Ryder and many more.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12046438/true-and-fair-foundation-hornets-nest-charity-report.html
    The foundation analysed the latest official annual report and accounts of the 5,543 charities which last year raise more than £500,000 every year.

    Its report - "A Hornets' Nest" published today - found that 1,020 charities, which together raised £6billion in the past 12 months from donors, spent less than 50 per cent on charitable activities.

    Spending on “charitable activities” is defined in accounting rules as “all costs incurred by a charity in undertaking activities that further its charitable aims for the benefit of its beneficiaries”.

    They were obtained by dividing charitable activity spend by their total income.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:



    Indigo said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12047089/David-Cameron-will-dilute-his-flagship-migrant-benefit-reforms-in-order-to-save-his-EU-referendum-negotiation.html

    The Daily Telegraph understands that British expats returning to the UK will also be denied the right to claim in-work benefits for four years, to meet EU legal requirements.
    What the f*ck have they been smoking in Downing Street ? So expat couple abroad breaks up because the breadwinner runs off with another person, and the partner left with the children comes home to the UK and can't claim in-work benefits so they can support their family. Can't see that as a voter winner, or a recipe not to get involved in endless embarrassing court cases which the government will inevitably lose.
    The same principle applies. If they haven't paid UK taxes for an extended period, then why should they benefit from UK taxes?

    Sounds fair to me, whatever we do about EU migrants.

    Quite so.. why should people who have contributed nothing be "entitled" to claim..

    They might have contributed 20 year of NI before they left for all you know.
    errrrrrr.. I said contributed nothing.
    Indeed, but that is the proposal. Mr and Mrs Bloggs after a decade of working in the UK, move to Spain with their kids. Four years later Mr Bloggs runs off with a waitress and Mrs Bloggs now having no income returns to the UK for the support of her family etc, gets a job, but is not eligible for any in work benefits...
    You seem to be obsessed with entitlement to benefits. People make choices, mistakes have bad luck - your only response is to give them benefits come what may. That is why the welfare bill is so ridiculously high.
    Well, now that the Enoch Powell Fan Club is in full session I think I will attend to the groceries... see you all to-morrow :)



    Thank you for the random lefty insult generated comment - over-used the fatcha one have we.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    O/T, but this could be an interesting story to keep an eye on for next year's Assembly elections:

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/wales-cutting-funding-universities-third-10588171

    There are three key problems with these cuts to Welsh universities:

    1) The size of them. Cutting budgets by a third is a sure-fire way to cause trouble. Two probable consequences will be a massive hike in tuition fees - including the end of subsidised fees for Welsh students - and a very large rise in the number of foreign students at the big five universities (Aberystwyth, Bangor, Cardiff, South Wales and Swansea). That means that Labour will simultaneously be imposing massive austerity and breaking its pledge to get rid of tuition fees. And when will this happen? I think about April will be the moment that it goes public. The elections are of course in May.

    2) The location of them. In England, cuts to university funding have a negligible impact on the local economy because most university towns are large and have a substantial and diversified economy. In Wales, it would not be wholly an exaggeration to say three towns - Aberystwyth, Lampeter and Bangor - owe their very existence to their universities, while Wrexham, Carmarthen and even Swansea and Newport have an unusually large proportion of their workforce in HE. Only in Cardiff would the economy be sufficiently broad-ranging to withstand cuts in the workforce or even the loss of a university. Bangor and Wrexham are Labour marginals, and Swansea is less safe for Labour than it was. Bad news on the universities could cause a few major shocks in the constituency results, and it isn't going to help Labour's increasingly desperate appeal for list voters. With these cuts, the odds are Lampeter (the Lampeter campus of UWTSD, to be precise) will close - however, as there are very few Labour voters in Lampeter anyway I doubt if that will have any bearing on the result. Bangor is the one to keep an eye on.
    (continued)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,844
    (continued)
    3) The money is instead being spent on secondary eduction. Which would be fine, if Welsh secondary education were not in such a disastrous condition that it needs massive reform rather than good money being thrown after bad. The LEA system in Wales makes the old English one look like a model of transparency, integrity and financial efficiency, and the inspection regime (ESTYN) is very weak (although it's little different in practice from OFSTED, which says a lot about OFSTED). Effectively the WAG is saying, 'We have bad schools and bad universities. So let's punish the universities for being bad by taking the money they need and failing to make our schools better.' Not, in my view, a vote winner.

    The irony is of course that Welsh universities did OK - not brilliantly, but OK - in last year's REF, and that could have been a springboard to something really good with the right management and careful financial handling. Alas, that's never going to happen while Wales is run by the current bunch of jokers in Cardiff.
  • Indigo said:

    Expats seem to expect a lot for free. There's no reason why national insurance, like any other form of insurance, should pay out if you let the policy lapse.

    No reason it should, it just does in many other cases, after 30 years of contributing you can push off abroad from 15 years and come back to a full state pension, and full eligibility to contribution based JSA.

    Personally (even as an expat) I could care less, but politically it seems idiotic. Not giving British Citizens what we freely give to failed asylum seekers, is going to be a gift to the DM tendency and the out campaign. Regardless of what we might think about it, its going to generate a load of court cases as people's lawyers explore the inconsistencies and lots of DM headlines about Mrs Bloggs, 47 being left destitute as her husband runs off with Spanish waitress, 18, while we give the money to former eastern block pickpockets.
    The idea as I understand it is not to give the money to either eastern bloc pickpockets or expats who decided previously that they could do better elsewhere. Seems reasonable enough to me.

    Perhaps as a compromise we could let expats volunteer to keep paying tax and NI to keep their eligibility for social security benefits open. That seems fair enough to me.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPvviEaNWo

    It´s time for BRITAIN to be FREE again - Frederick Forsyth
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Indigo said:

    Expats seem to expect a lot for free. There's no reason why national insurance, like any other form of insurance, should pay out if you let the policy lapse.

    No reason it should, it just does in many other cases, after 30 years of contributing you can push off abroad from 15 years and come back to a full state pension, and full eligibility to contribution based JSA.

    Personally (even as an expat) I could care less, but politically it seems idiotic. Not giving British Citizens what we freely give to failed asylum seekers, is going to be a gift to the DM tendency and the out campaign. Regardless of what we might think about it, its going to generate a load of court cases as people's lawyers explore the inconsistencies and lots of DM headlines about Mrs Bloggs, 47 being left destitute as her husband runs off with Spanish waitress, 18, while we give the money to former eastern block pickpockets.
    Aren't you missing the point that the change will apply to all migrants. As it is the expat vote will be solidly for remain - mainly as many are afraid they'd lose pension entitlement/health cover in their new country without the protection of the reciprocal arrangements which apply in the UK. The leave campaign have said nothing about this and it is something which many expats are greatly concerned about. In reality it may not happen but it is a real and genuine concern.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    edited December 2015
    felix said:

    What did Syrian migrants ever do for the US.....

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35076976

    The tech world would be much better off if it had not been for Apple and the insane cult of Jobs.
    Indeed - overpriced fashion tech for the rich lefty-liberals and de rigeur at the BBC. tells you all you need to know.
    Apple Inc. is worth over 100 billion US dollars
    Therefore I find it impossible to believe that this means the technology sector could possibly be worse off without Apple and Jobs, or that it is only favoured by the pro-Eurabia multi-culti rootless cosmopolitans at the BBC
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    Bit of a UKIP advert in the Express... Daves Christmas Card doesn't mention Christmas apparently #winterval

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/626106/PC-David-Cameron-Christmas-card-no-reference-Xmas

    They never do - it's always just a photo of him and Sam.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Wanderer said:

    MikeK said:

    OT. Good morning all.

    The thread seems to be a reasonable read. However, the two main animals in the zoo have almost become one - producing a Donkiphant or an Elidonk - that most people cannot tell the difference: much like Labour and Tory in Britain.

    While it's true that most new immigrants have no time for Trump. Many of the old immigrants (the rest of the population) have found in Trump a voice that describes their feelings and deep beliefs.

    Hillary, if elected, will see the completion of the present madness of the American Elite, started by Bush and continued by Obama; and who knows how that will end? But however it ends it will be a misery for the U.S. and the world.

    I apologise if the above is a bit disjointed, but that the mood I'm in.

    If you find Labour and Conservative indistinguishable at present I'm wondering what either party could possibly do to establish a distinction in your mind. Have its candidates appear naked, smothered in molasses?
    That would be a marked improvement.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,535

    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.

    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

    It says it all , the people that are affected by the mass immigration , mainly of people who do not want a British way of life, just the benefits/opportunities, can empathise with what these guys are saying. Our politicians and people who live in rich areas isolated from it do not have to suffer the impact on services, schools etc and so are able to bray their wishy washy liberalism about how good it is.
  • malcolmg said:

    The Times comments were about 90/10 in favour of what Trump said. They didn't like the way he said it/it was impractical/he's not very credible - but his point needed saying.

    I was quite surprised.

    AndyJS said:

    Trump seems to be relatively "popular" in Lincs, Kent and Essex according to this map:

    http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=114907

    It says it all , the people that are affected by the mass immigration , mainly of people who do not want a British way of life, just the benefits/opportunities, can empathise with what these guys are saying. Our politicians and people who live in rich areas isolated from it do not have to suffer the impact on services, schools etc and so are able to bray their wishy washy liberalism about how good it is.
    If only we had some opinion polling on the subject. Oh, we do:

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/09/brits-oppose-muslim-policy-pockets-approval/

    Looks like you're a closet kipper, MalcolmG.
This discussion has been closed.