Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
Yes that was hard to explain. It seemed UKIP were saying Scotland would still not be independent as a province of the EU, but surely that is the choice that an independent country gets to make?
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
Tbh I'm not interested if they're capable of running their affairs, that's subjective, but I have sympathy with those who want to have a go. I realise that's pedantic but in the spirit of libertarianism I hope you agree.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
That's true. The leadership of that campaign never even really got around to answering why they wanted to remain in the UK, especially when it has a Tory government. The good people of Scotland voted to remain in the UK despite most of the efforts of Better Together, not because of them.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
UKIP would have to change their name if they promoted the disunification of the united kingdoms. I think the main UKIP criticism of the Scottish independence movement is that it's a misnomer in that it's slavishly pro-EU/ Brussels rule.
'The Gresham’s law of extremism, that the more extreme drives out the less extreme, is one of the basic rules of political mechanics which operate in this field: it is a corollary of the general principle that no political power exists without being used.
Both the general law and its Gresham’s corollary point, in contemporary circumstances, towards the resort to physical violence, in the form of firearms or high explosive, as being so probable as to be predicted with virtual certainty. The experience of the last decade and more, all round the world, shows that acts of violence, however apparently irrational or inappropriate their targets, precipitate a frenzied search on the part of the society attacked to discover and remedy more and more grievances, real or imaginary, among those from the violence is supposed to emanate or on whose behalf it is supposed to be exercised. Those commanding a position of political leverage would then be superhuman if they could refrain from pointing to the acts of terrorism and, while condemning them, declaring that further and faster concessions and grants of privilege are the only means to avoid such acts being repeated on a rising scale. We know that those who thus argue will always find a ready hearing. This is what produces the gearing effect of terrorism in the contemporary world, yielding huge results from acts of violence perpetrated by minimal numbers. It is not, I repeat again and again, that the mass of a particular population are violently or criminally disposed. Far from it; that population soon becomes itself the prisoner of the violence and machinations of an infinitely small minority among it. Just a few thugs, a few shots, a few bombs at the right place and time—and that is enough for disproportionate consequences to follow.'
Sounds like utter rubbish to me, especially where there are real and actual grievances.
It's Enoch Powell....
It's funny: isam talks at length about prescient Enoch Powell was, and how we need to heed his lessons.
While never mentioning the things he said that were batshit crazy. Like his view that, after the British Empire had rid the world of the Nazis, then it would have to do the same with the United States.
(I realise this is the view of Lovinputin1983)
Yes, but he also got other things right too: he was advocating a free market approach to the economy, liberalisation and control of inflation in the 1960s in the Tory party, way before Thatcher or any of the monetarists.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
You intend to vote SNP twice next year because you love democracy. You call the First Minister Nicola. You think Braveheart is a documentary. You have The National delivered directly to your ego and you live in a world where the next referendum is always around the corner – should the right crisis occur.
What a paragon of virtue you are. Except there is one thing you haven’t considered fully that I want to draw your hysterical attention to: the independent Scotland you dream of is actually no more moral, or just, than the Union.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
I think though, that if you did a quiz where you showed UKIP arguments to leave the EU, but blanked out the "Britain" and "EU", and did the same for "Scotland" and "UK" for SNP arguments, it would be hard to tell the difference
EDIT ...and as Pulpstar infers, I think UKIP are pretty opposed to the EU existing as an ideology, they want it to cease to exist
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
@RuthDavidsonMSP: People of Hawick; you've spent 10 years asking for flood defenses, but the SNP say you 'need to take responsibility' https://t.co/LXVH6RfNG6
I remain astounded by the armies of keyboard warriors roaming every part of the internet to defend the SNP. The story referred to seems (to me) to be clearly shitty behaviour by the Scottish Government: Hawick - we've begged you for defenses for a decade, and now we're knee-deep in water. SNP - It's your own fault. Man up.
Yet under Ruth's tweet, there is post after post after post effectively saying that the SNP response was entirely reasonable and correct, that the government is not responsible for protecting your homes and livelihoods, and that Ruth is evil for "politicising the misery of others".
I know this shouldn't surprise me any more. But it does.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
"For all households with no dependent children, whether singles or couples, there will no longer be any work allowance. The effect on these groups will be stark: if they are unemployed and looking for work, their monthly payment of universal credit will be cut the moment they start working. "
Errm What in the actual is Emily trying to say here. Of course if you start work your benefits should be cut. But the headline of the article "Universal credit is undermining even the Tory ambition to make work pay " ??
UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology
Are you sure ?
No, I'm not. My assumption is that UKIP don't like the EU because they think it does not work in Britain's interests and can't work in Britain's interests as it has been set up. But I could well be wrong.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
The Scottish economy is facing a triple whammy at the present time.
Firstly, the on going shrinkage of the Financial Service sector and the RBS in particular has lost Scotland a significant percentage of its private sector higher rate tax payers.
Secondly, the collapse in north sea oil prices has drained money out of the whole Scottish economy, once again seriously affecting the tax base. The collapse in PRT is a UK problem but the collapse in spending power in Scotland affects housing, retail, restaurants and car sales. It hurts us all.
Thirdly, we now have massive disruption arising from the failure of one of our key infrastructure portals.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault but a grown up Scottish government has to deal with the consequences. Where are the next generation of HRT payers in the private sector to come from? That is what the next election should be about. How can we improve our infrastructure to attract business, reduce taxation on business to attract investment, improve our education so our children can be employable, ideally in Scotland?
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Transport Scotland should tell Abelio Scot Rail to get their act into gear.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, thishas kind of mademy day
I access the vanilla forum in Firefox, and the comment box has icons just above it for the HTML tags...
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, thishas kind of mademy day
I always d that because, to be honest, I can never remember the HTML instructions.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
I agree with Alastair about 2017 being the start of the SNP's decline, for another reason. 10 years after GE 1979 was the time moves really took off to end Thatcher's reign. 10 years in 2007 brought the end of Blair's Premiership and the end of the labour Govt. 2017 will be the 10th year of the SNP government. 2018 etc will therefore be downhill for them, although it may take 2 elections to end the SNP Govt depending upon how massive a majority they build up in 2016.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
Really? The bridge is magnificent, but I've always thought the worst way of seeing it is from the train. The view over the water are obscured by the steelwork and you don't get to see the grandeur of the bridge itself.
Someone I knew once got the opportunity walk over the bridge's high girders. Lucky git.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
... All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
#TINA They have to abandon belief in magic money trees and fairies and face up to the budget constraint: Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
Er. Wow. That's interesting. I'm probably the last person to discover this, but on the off-chance it will help fellow IT morons:
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article. - However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
If you used the bridge before to commute - how long is the detour route to get to the other side now?
I'm trying to get a handle on the scale of the problem - like closing the Dartford Crossing? Closing that has a massive impact, fortunately - it's never been more than a couple of days for weather IIRC.
I hope you are right Scott but I fear you are excessively optimistic.
Depends how long it stays shut.
I used to commute from Dundee to Edinburgh via the bridge. I now make the journey via Stirling. The journey has increased from about 1 hour 20 mins each way to just over 2 hours. This makes commuting seriously unattractive so I have had 2 nights in Edinburgh this week and will work at home tomorrow. I expect that to be the routine now until the Bridge opens again.
Why not take the train?
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
The trains were so full before this that they did not stop at some stations for safety reasons. They are trying to put on some more carriages and they have brought in 1 additional train but they would currently have sardines complaining about their human rights (if they had any and were alive and...oh well, it started ok).
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
Transport Scotland should tell Abelio Scot Rail to get their act into gear.
Who runs the former by the way?
From what I've been reading elsewhere, it's not that easy. There's apparently a shortage of suitable rolling stock, and a lack of paths at the important times of day into Edinburgh itself.
In the days of loco-hauled rolling stock they'd just stick a few extra carriages on the end of a train. With set-formation DMU's and EMU's that we have nowadays, that is much harder to do in the short term.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.
Excellent and reasoned article as usual. I'm not going to read too far down the comments today, but I confidently guess that they are less reasoned and thoughtful in places.
I think the SNP do hope to continue to rely for as long as possible on being an opposition in exile rather than a government in Holyrood. They are, of course, both. For the SNP the voice they have in Westminster is the new factor that will perpetuate the opposition narrative, whilst the opposition within Scotland will seek to localise things. So, ironically, the nats will be more UK focussed and the unionists more Scotland focussed.
What the transfer of powers says to me is that 2017 is the likely time that the SNP will have to throw their dead cat on the table then to perpetuate the opposition in exile strategy. I expect they are likely to discover that whatever Indyref 2 red lines they have set out have been triggered somewhere fairly close to the point they gain full tax powers.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.
Why is that unkind? It's a very good point.
Settled for a generation should mean that. Otherwise business (and potential HRTs) are put off.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
On-topic, thanks @AlastairMeeks for a very informative piece. I've followed your tip with a small bet on NOM. I don't expect to win but 7/1 is just tempting enough.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.
That is very good. Thanks to FPTP two big political parties in the UK are coalitions. But they can only be such if all sides within them see at least some common cause. Increasingly, though, that is not the case with Labour. Many of its erstwhile supporters - and I imagine a number of its current elected representatives at national and local level - think that a Corbyn-led government would be far more destructive to the interests of the UK and its citizens than a Cameron-led one. We are not going to vote Tory as a result, but we are certainly not going to vote labour either. The major issue Tory critics of IDS had was that he was crap. The major issue that Labour critics of Corbyn have is that he is dangerously wrong at an ideological level. That he is crap as well is by the by.
As others have said, a very good piece by antifrank. The question of who comes second at Holyrood takes on even greater significance; there really could be a sort of butterfly effect whereby a handful of votes on the list in one region changes the direction of Scottish politics years into the future.
I agree with Alastair about 2017 being the start of the SNP's decline, for another reason. 10 years after GE 1979 was the time moves really took off to end Thatcher's reign. 10 years in 2007 brought the end of Blair's Premiership and the end of the labour Govt. 2017 will be the 10th year of the SNP government. 2018 etc will therefore be downhill for them, although it may take 2 elections to end the SNP Govt depending upon how massive a majority they build up in 2016.
Apart from 10 years being an entirely arbitrary figure based on our psychological leaning towards the decimal, who do you think are the requisite up & comers that need to be present in strength & depth for SLab, SCons & SLDs to offer an attractive alternative government (it would have to be some combination of those parties since there's not a scooby of any of them gaining a majority)?
Of course there may be another referendum before your required 2 elections come into play. If support for independence has at the very least not receded in the face of the oil & financial sector recessions/shrinkages and international uncertainty, an indy campaign will be starting from a 'too close for comfort' position, not ending at it.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.
I'm not a fan of UKIP but I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent for them to oppose Scottish independence. They might argue that the EU doesn't have a single "demos" (and therefore cannot become a democratic entity) whereas the UK does.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
But couldn't an independent Scotland elect a government that offered a referendum?
I would be ok with a post Brexit govt being elected on a manifesto that allowed free movement of people from the EU, I just want to be able to hold them to account rather than hear "Our hands are tied"
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
Well if you're correct to me it's hypocritical and contradictory, the stance should be encouraging people to act as they wish and not to interfere.
I'm not a fan of UKIP but I don't think it's necessarily inconsistent for them to oppose Scottish independence. They might argue that the EU doesn't have a single "demos" (and therefore cannot become a democratic entity) whereas the UK does.
That is very good. Thanks to FPTP two big political parties in the UK are coalitions. But they can only be such if all sides within them see at least some common cause. Increasingly, though, that is not the case with Labour. Many of its erstwhile supporters - and I imagine a number of its current elected representatives at national and local level - think that a Corbyn-led government would be far more destructive to the interests of the UK and its citizens than a Cameron-led one. We are not going to vote Tory as a result, but we are certainly not going to vote labour either. The major issue Tory critics of IDS had was that he was crap. The major issue that Labour critics of Corbyn have is that he is dangerously wrong at an ideological level. That he is crap as well is by the by.
IDS also appealed to the idealogical anti-Europe tories, mainly because he wasn't Ken Clarke.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.
Excellent article. Once again Alastair is looking at what lies behind the surface of politics, something which the mainstream media, and most political columnists, fail to do. Instead they respond to (often synthetic) 'events'.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.
I am not a great defender of UKIP, as you probably know - and, again, I could be very wrong - but isn't a principle UKIP argument against the EU that it means the UK is worse off than it would otherwise be? If so, wouldn't being opposed to Scottish independence on the basis that it would make Scotland worse off a reasonable argument to make? In other words, if UKIP opposition to the EU is practical, being opposed to Scottish independence is not hypocritical. But if it is ideological, being opposed to Scottish independence is hypocritical.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
Interesting, I'm with Socrates
As am I. I very much miss his contribution to these debates.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
There are two schools of thought within UKIP, which I shall call the Socrates (late of this parish) and the Morris_Dancer school.
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
You forgot the third school of thought, let's call it the Sir Humphrey school:
the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore the UK should remain a member of the EU and seek to bugger it up for everyone else
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault
The unkind might argue that the 'Neverendum' by adding to uncertainty is also having an impact on the Edinburgh service sector - which may be one of the reasons Edinburgh is poised for the lowest growth of any major UK city, bar Liverpool, according to the ONS.
I agree. Our politicians desperately need to stop seeing every issue and decision through the prism of whether this is good or bad for independence in some hypothetical referendum and start looking through the prism of whether this is good or bad for Scottish employment and business.
He notes the two types of new labour joiner/supporter. The old (55+) lefties who have rejoined after decades sulking in the pub and are now intent on causing maximum trouble by using procedures and deselections and conference motions and all the rest. And then there's the 20-somethings, young and heady with idealist ideas, many of whom have probably switched across from the Greens. The problem I can see, which Harris doesn't mention, is that the young are more likely to drift off after a few months or years, bored with the whole endless meeting thing and intimidated by the old crusty militant types.
He notes the two types of new labour joiner/supporter. The old (55+) lefties who have rejoined after decades sulking in the pub and are now intent on causing maximum trouble by using procedures and deselections and conference motions and all the rest. And then there's the 20-somethings, young and heady with idealist ideas, many of whom have probably switched across from the Greens. The problem I can see, which Harris doesn't mention, is that the young are more likely to drift off after a few months or years, bored with the whole endless meeting thing and intimidated by the old crusty militant types.
The Scottish economy is facing a triple whammy at the present time.
Firstly, the on going shrinkage of the Financial Service sector and the RBS in particular has lost Scotland a significant percentage of its private sector higher rate tax payers.
Secondly, the collapse in north sea oil prices has drained money out of the whole Scottish economy, once again seriously affecting the tax base. The collapse in PRT is a UK problem but the collapse in spending power in Scotland affects housing, retail, restaurants and car sales. It hurts us all.
Thirdly, we now have massive disruption arising from the failure of one of our key infrastructure portals.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault but a grown up Scottish government has to deal with the consequences. Where are the next generation of HRT payers in the private sector to come from? That is what the next election should be about. How can we improve our infrastructure to attract business, reduce taxation on business to attract investment, improve our education so our children can be employable, ideally in Scotland?
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
At one time, actually not too long ago, the square mile of Edinburgh was "richer" than the square mile of London. Most of the major UK Insurance Companies were headquartered on George Street. Sunlife comes to mind immediately. Nearly all of (a lot of) Scotlands Banks had their HO's there. Off all the major companies, I think only Standard Life Investments is left. SL HO itself is in Lothian Road. A walk along George Street will take you past the Dome which if you enter now, will give some indication of the one upmanship that was normal in those days, plus you can get a decent pint of beer (if you can get an overdraft;^)
Who remembers any of them these days after all the consilodations with the ultimate take overs by originally Edinburgh then London based companies. Nope, I am not complaining or moaning. Glasgow, Newcastle, Liverpool and many more UK cities went through the same experience.
The real problem is that not a lot came in to replace the lost leaving too many empty offices and unemployed staff. Sure, we now have "Retail Experiences" and call centres in place, but a lot of the profit disappears out to countries with low/no taxation, and no incentive to manufacture here. Service Industry is just another name to shuffle the same money round all the same companies, not produce anything.
It is not just the Scotttish Government that has to change things, Westminster must also.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.
To respond more directly, you ignore the particulars. The arguments that UKIP and the Scottish independence movement share are generic arguments that could be used by any smaller body wishing to exit a larger one. It doesn't follow that this is the best course of action in every case, or the world would split into atoms. It is entirely logical to argue that the UK is a valid, successful, and democratically legitimate entity, and that the EU is not.
"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
The point is that many of the same core arguments that UKIP use for EU exit are those used by the Scots nationalists for Scottish Independence. UKIP cannot say that those arguments and principles of self determination apply to the UK with regard to the EU but do not apply to Scotland with regard to the UK. It is, as Blackburn said, hypocritical.
I think it would be hypocritical for UKIP to argue that Scots should be compelled to remain in the United Kingdom *against their will*. But that's not the party's position.
There's nothing inconsistent about being opposed to EU membership, while arguing for the maintenance of the United Kingdom on a voluntary basis. It's been one of the world's most successful States for hundreds of years and Britishness is a common identity that matters to a great many of its inhabitants.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.
To respond more directly, you ignore the particulars. The arguments that UKIP and the Scottish independence movement share are generic arguments that could be used by any smaller body wishing to exit a larger one. It doesn't follow that this is the best course of action in every case, or the world would split into atoms. It is entirely logical to argue that the UK is a valid, successful, and democratically legitimate entity, and that the EU is not.
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
The clue is in the name, isn't it?
Ukip's stance on the EU is clear, it can do as they wish once we leave it. We want to trade with EU, be friends with EU, but not part of an ever growing and suffocating political union.
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Haha well its not that clear! I thought UKIP wanted every country to leave the EU
My inner Kipper is pretty laissez-faire. There's some sense to a true federal union (I could see Benelux and Germany working well) for those electorates that want it. The Eurozone will have to form some kind of federation in order for the currency to work in the long term.
I just see the EU as harking back to the post-war Cold war settlement - while the trading rules and standardisation have value, the political trappings don't make sense for the UK, particularly so as the bloc enlarges even further. Decision making is too slow and sclerotic - we have enough issues in that regard, the EU makes things worse.
We talked about inconsistency the other day; I don't even pretend to be consistent, but being a BOOer and anti-Scottish independence is too much, even for flawed, imperfect me. Scotland will be independent in my lifetime, and will do well. Whether that's in the EU or out - it's a Scottish decision.
Morning all. To be clear, I'm not predicting that a 7/1 shot will come home, merely that the odds look too long to me.
My header could be summed up in one question: "what do the SNP actually want independence for?". It's the question that the Better Together campaign never got round to asking properly.
It's nothing to do with oil, the economy or free presriptions they simply want to be free from rule by Westminster, good for them.
Free to do what?
Govern themselves?
I'm not Scottish, I have sympathy with the Nats even if I disapprove of their boorish behaviour. I've always thought Ukip's stance hypocritical, didn't want Scottish independence but want to leave the EU
Agreed. I think Scotland is perfectly capable of running its own affairs and I cannot reconcile UKIPs opposition to Scottish Independence with their desire for EU exit when so many of the arguments are exactly the same.
It's surely the SNP's position that is hypocritical - they trumpet 'independence' but would seek to deny Scottish voters the chance to leave a supranational body from which spring 50-75% (conservatively) of all laws. It's not about independence, it's about England.
Straw man argument. Neither I nor the other anti-EU posters on here were making a comment about the SNP position. Whether or not the SNP are being hypocritical is neither here nor there to the question of whether or not UKIP should be in favour of Scottish Independence.
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
You forgot the third school of thought, let's call it the Sir Humphrey school:
the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore the UK should remain a member of the EU and seek to bugger it up for everyone else
But Robert was referring to UKIP schools of thought and your - quite valid - 3rd alternative is certainly not one I think anyone in UKIP are likely to hold.
What this ruling leaves untouched is an associated element within Momentum that is causing no end of trouble, made up of people who have come back to Labour after a long time in self-imposed exile. One party insider characterises them as being “white, male and over 55”. A lot of them, he says, seem to have left Labour in the early 1990s, furious at even Neil Kinnock’s supposed betrayals. They tend to have a deep attachment to the writings of dead Russians, and remain well versed in the kind of bureaucratic manoeuvring that certain left activists tend to mistake for changing the world (“resolutionary socialism”, as one of my Labour friends puts it).
"That is probably right, it is hard to see Malcolm Chisholm hanging on"
He said he was not standing a few months back-probably because it is obvious he does not rate his own party. Among other issues he is a long time opponent of Trident renewal but is not in favour of independence.
I think he held on last time (only SLAB to do so in Edinburgh) partly because many thought he might favour a Yes vote.
"That is probably right, it is hard to see Malcolm Chisholm hanging on"
He said he was not standing a few months back-probably because it is obvious he does not rate his own party. Among other issues he is a long time opponent of Trident renewal but is not in favour of independence.
I think he held on last time (only SLAB to do so in Edinburgh) partly because many thought he might favour a Yes vote.
Well that makes the loss of the seat even more inevitable. Where, if anywhere, are Labour likely to hold a constituency seat?
SLAB shortlisted candidates going forward to the membership ballot for regional lists ranking last weekend. Annoyingly they didn't post a full report on their website and I've to rely from people announcing on twitter ("Oh, I am so proooooud") , local papers, etc...anyway in 2 regions I've the full shortlists...
Glasgow
Johann Lamont MSP Patricia Ferguson MSP Anne MacTaggart MSP Pauline McNeill (former MSP) Cllr Sorrida Siddique Cllr Marie Garrity Samantha Ritchie (Chair of STUC youth committee)
Paul Martin MSP James Kelly MSP Hanzala Malik MSP Bill Butler (former MSP) Anas Sarwar (former MP) Cllr James Adams Simon McFarlane (Unison official)
Lewis MacDonald MSP Willie Young (Aberdeen Cllr) Nathan Morrison (Aberdeen Cllr) Frank Gilfeather (Evening Express journalist) Richard McCready (Dundee Cllr)
"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
But UKIP do argue for Brexit on both ideological and practical grounds. There is a strong ideological strand to all their arguments - not least the use of sovereignty as a key factor in their campaigns. If the arguments against UK membership of the EU and for Scottish membership of the UK were purely economic then you would be right to some extent. However those are not the main driving arguments of Brexit, no matter how much some might like to make them so. As such it is indeed hypocritical for UKIP to support Scottish membership of the UK whilst opposing British membership of the EU.
The arguments don't have to be purely economic to be based on particulars.
-The EU is progressively centralising - The UK has been (rightly or wrongly) the opposite -The structures of the EU (council of ministers & commission particularly) are fundamentally undemocratic - the same cannot be said of the UK (though the system is in need of reform) -We do not share a language, a currency, state institutions, armed forces, 300 years of statehood, culture & pop culture etc. with the EU - we do with the UK
"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.
Perhaps it would be less contentious to say the SNP has preferred to preserve the status quo rather than echoing England's tertiary education and health reforms.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our heads .
"Scotland’s points of departure from the rest of the UK have often been more negative than positive – declining to introduce student fees and not updating NHS structures being good examples"
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
I think you've misunderstood Alistair here, he is not arguing (I think) that these are undesirable - simply that they are examples of stuff that has NOT been done (Hence the use of the word negative, and is a change from the new rUK status quo), rather than changes that HAVE been done.
Perhaps it would be less contentious to say the SNP has preferred to preserve the status quo rather than echoing England's tertiary education and health reforms.
The final sentence of the paragraph provides the context needed to make sense of it as I did.
fwiw I'd have left these items alone as the SNP did.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our heads .
The Thousand Club was founded two decades ago by well-heeled backers, with a mission to raise £1 million a year from professionals like bankers, lawyers and investors
Who on earth "invests" in the Labour party, particularly when it isn't in Government.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
I see no contradiction between supporting both my country's independence, and its territorial integrity.
I don't consider the the UK to be my country. It is a State but States come and go. My country is England and I wish it to have a harmonious relationship with the other countries in the British Isles but not to dominate and control them. The same applies to the relationship between England and the other countries of Europe.
Fair enough, but I see myself as British first and English second.
I'm English. I'm a bear of simple brain, I can only be from one place - that's England. My Mum was Welsh and Dad Irish. It's funny how nationality works inside our heads .
I'm so English, I'm practically a descendant of St George
SLAB shortlisted candidates going forward to the membership ballot for regional lists ranking last weekend. Annoyingly they didn't post a full report on their website and I've to rely from people announcing on twitter ("Oh, I am so proooooud") , local papers, etc...anyway in 2 regions I've the full shortlists...
Glasgow
Johann Lamont MSP Patricia Ferguson MSP Anne MacTaggart MSP Pauline McNeill (former MSP) Cllr Sorrida Siddique Cllr Marie Garrity Samantha Ritchie (Chair of STUC youth committee)
Paul Martin MSP James Kelly MSP Hanzala Malik MSP Bill Butler (former MSP) Anas Sarwar (former MP) Cllr James Adams Simon McFarlane (Unison official)
Lewis MacDonald MSP Willie Young (Aberdeen Cllr) Nathan Morrison (Aberdeen Cllr) Frank Gilfeather (Evening Express journalist) Richard McCready (Dundee Cllr)
*up and coming*
Much as I'd welcome a wider platform for Willie Young's particular brand of idiocy, I doubt he'll going forward. Mind you, it is SLab..
I wonder why they chose Manchester? Of all the places in the UK what made Manchester the best place to collate the figures? Birmingham, Leeds, even Sheffield, I should have thought would have done just as well if they wanted a big city outside London.
Mind, if the result is going to be "out" then the best place to announce it would be Winchester, England's historical capital.
I wonder why they chose Manchester? Of all the places in the UK what made Manchester the best place to collate the figures? Birmingham, Leeds, even Sheffield, I should have thought would have done just as well if they wanted a big city outside London.
Mind, if the result is going to be "out" then the best place to announce it would be Winchester, England's historical capital.
George loves Manchester, even if they don't love him
Comments
I think the main UKIP criticism of the Scottish independence movement is that it's a misnomer in that it's slavishly pro-EU/ Brussels rule.
The journey over the Forth Rail Bridge has to be one of the most thrilling in the world.
You intend to vote SNP twice next year because you love democracy. You call the First Minister Nicola. You think Braveheart is a documentary. You have The National delivered directly to your ego and you live in a world where the next referendum is always around the corner – should the right crisis occur.
What a paragon of virtue you are. Except there is one thing you haven’t considered fully that I want to draw your hysterical attention to: the independent Scotland you dream of is actually no more moral, or just, than the Union.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/12/07/scotland-the-utopia-that-never-was/
As I understand it (though I could be completely wrong), UKIP is not opposed to the EU as a point of ideology, but because it does not think it works and cannot work in the UK's best interests. If the party thinks that the UK does, on balance, work in Scotland's interests it would be a bit bizarre to support Scottish independence, wouldn't it?
I am always carrying several bags and a change of clothes. Taking such stuff on trains at the moment is simply not viable.
Going across the Bridge to Edinburgh is an epic experience though, at least when your face is not squashed into someone's armpit.
EDIT ...and as Pulpstar infers, I think UKIP are pretty opposed to the EU existing as an ideology, they want it to cease to exist
My own view, which I think differs from the party, is it was hypocritical to oppose Scottish independence.
Hawick - we've begged you for defenses for a decade, and now we're knee-deep in water.
SNP - It's your own fault. Man up.
Yet under Ruth's tweet, there is post after post after post effectively saying that the SNP response was entirely reasonable and correct, that the government is not responsible for protecting your homes and livelihoods, and that Ruth is evil for "politicising the misery of others".
I know this shouldn't surprise me any more. But it does.
"For all households with no dependent children, whether singles or couples, there will no longer be any work allowance. The effect on these groups will be stark: if they are unemployed and looking for work, their monthly payment of universal credit will be cut the moment they start working. "
Errm What in the actual is Emily trying to say here. Of course if you start work your benefits should be cut. But the headline of the article "Universal credit is undermining even the Tory ambition to make work pay " ??
#SNP
- When adding italic or bold I've been writing HTML tags as I type. This is a bit cumbersome, but seems to be the only way to do it in the comment box below the article.
- However, if you click the little 'edit' cog after posting, you can select text and hit CTRL+b or CTRL+i to add tags instantly.
Sadly, this has kind of made my day
Firstly, the on going shrinkage of the Financial Service sector and the RBS in particular has lost Scotland a significant percentage of its private sector higher rate tax payers.
Secondly, the collapse in north sea oil prices has drained money out of the whole Scottish economy, once again seriously affecting the tax base. The collapse in PRT is a UK problem but the collapse in spending power in Scotland affects housing, retail, restaurants and car sales. It hurts us all.
Thirdly, we now have massive disruption arising from the failure of one of our key infrastructure portals.
Only 1 of these is even arguably the Scottish government's fault but a grown up Scottish government has to deal with the consequences. Where are the next generation of HRT payers in the private sector to come from? That is what the next election should be about. How can we improve our infrastructure to attract business, reduce taxation on business to attract investment, improve our education so our children can be employable, ideally in Scotland?
All of the elections since Devolution have been about who can offer the most sweeties, the most freebies and who hates the Tories more. It would be naïve to think this one will really be any different but we have serious problems and we need some serious answers.
The Socrates school says: the countries of continental Europe have gone their way. They are fundamentally different to us in terms of methods of law, and of methods of government. These countries have chosen to come together, and that is their choice. It does not match the British way of being, and we will be forever unhappy if we try and be a part of it. Therefore, we should walk away from it. But we should remain on excellent terms with the countries of Europe and the EU, because they will always be close trading partners and neighbours.
The alternative school says that the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore, not only should Britain seek to leave the EU, but it should support those movements on the continent opposed to the EU.
Who runs the former by the way?
you get thisSomeone I knew once got the opportunity walk over the bridge's high girders. Lucky git.
Fuck meBlimey, this is amazing.Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
HmmIn the days of loco-hauled rolling stock they'd just stick a few extra carriages on the end of a train. With set-formation DMU's and EMU's that we have nowadays, that is much harder to do in the short term.
I think the SNP do hope to continue to rely for as long as possible on being an opposition in exile rather than a government in Holyrood. They are, of course, both. For the SNP the voice they have in Westminster is the new factor that will perpetuate the opposition narrative, whilst the opposition within Scotland will seek to localise things. So, ironically, the nats will be more UK focussed and the unionists more Scotland focussed.
What the transfer of powers says to me is that 2017 is the likely time that the SNP will have to throw their dead cat on the table then to perpetuate the opposition in exile strategy. I expect they are likely to discover that whatever Indyref 2 red lines they have set out have been triggered somewhere fairly close to the point they gain full tax powers.
Settled for a generation should mean that. Otherwise business (and potential HRTs) are put off.
* Well, their website.
Of course there may be another referendum before your required 2 elections come into play. If support for independence has at the very least not receded in the face of the oil & financial sector recessions/shrinkages and international uncertainty, an indy campaign will be starting from a 'too close for comfort' position, not ending at it.
I would be ok with a post Brexit govt being elected on a manifesto that allowed free movement of people from the EU, I just want to be able to hold them to account rather than hear "Our hands are tied"
Sorry but revolutionaries don’t look for common ground with the old order. They look for enemies of the revolution. There’s no room for comprise.
the EU is - whether we are a part of it or not - an existential threat to British interests. It has never been in Britain's interests for Europe to be united, not under Napolean or Hitler or Juncker. Therefore the UK should remain a member of the EU and seek to bugger it up for everyone else
But they won't.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/08/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-labour-momentum-militant
He notes the two types of new labour joiner/supporter. The old (55+) lefties who have rejoined after decades sulking in the pub and are now intent on causing maximum trouble by using procedures and deselections and conference motions and all the rest. And then there's the 20-somethings, young and heady with idealist ideas, many of whom have probably switched across from the Greens. The problem I can see, which Harris doesn't mention, is that the young are more likely to drift off after a few months or years, bored with the whole endless meeting thing and intimidated by the old crusty militant types.
Who remembers any of them these days after all the consilodations with the ultimate take overs by originally Edinburgh then London based companies. Nope, I am not complaining or moaning. Glasgow, Newcastle, Liverpool and many more UK cities went through the same experience.
The real problem is that not a lot came in to replace the lost leaving too many empty offices and unemployed staff. Sure, we now have "Retail Experiences" and call centres in place, but a lot of the profit disappears out to countries with low/no taxation, and no incentive to manufacture here. Service Industry is just another name to shuffle the same money round all the same companies, not produce anything.
It is not just the Scotttish Government that has to change things, Westminster must also.
Reached this early point when I realised, with absolute certainty rather than mere expectation, that this would just be another unionist "SNP bad" diatribe.
There's nothing inconsistent about being opposed to EU membership, while arguing for the maintenance of the United Kingdom on a voluntary basis. It's been one of the world's most successful States for hundreds of years and Britishness is a common identity that matters to a great many of its inhabitants.
I just see the EU as harking back to the post-war Cold war settlement - while the trading rules and standardisation have value, the political trappings don't make sense for the UK, particularly so as the bloc enlarges even further. Decision making is too slow and sclerotic - we have enough issues in that regard, the EU makes things worse.
We talked about inconsistency the other day; I don't even pretend to be consistent, but being a BOOer and anti-Scottish independence is too much, even for flawed, imperfect me. Scotland will be independent in my lifetime, and will do well. Whether that's in the EU or out - it's a Scottish decision.
The result of the referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union will be announced in Manchester, the Electoral Commission says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35060063
"That is probably right, it is hard to see Malcolm Chisholm hanging on"
He said he was not standing a few months back-probably because it is obvious he does not rate his own party. Among other issues he is a long time opponent of Trident renewal but is not in favour of independence.
I think he held on last time (only SLAB to do so in Edinburgh) partly because many thought he might favour a Yes vote.
Glasgow
Johann Lamont MSP
Patricia Ferguson MSP
Anne MacTaggart MSP
Pauline McNeill (former MSP)
Cllr Sorrida Siddique
Cllr Marie Garrity
Samantha Ritchie (Chair of STUC youth committee)
Paul Martin MSP
James Kelly MSP
Hanzala Malik MSP
Bill Butler (former MSP)
Anas Sarwar (former MP)
Cllr James Adams
Simon McFarlane (Unison official)
North East
Jenny Marra MSP
Lesley Brennan (Dundee Cllr)
Sarah Duncan (Ann Begg's former agent)
Alison Evison (Aberdeenshire Cllr)
Joanne McFadden (from Angus)
Lewis MacDonald MSP
Willie Young (Aberdeen Cllr)
Nathan Morrison (Aberdeen Cllr)
Frank Gilfeather (Evening Express journalist)
Richard McCready (Dundee Cllr)
-The EU is progressively centralising - The UK has been (rightly or wrongly) the opposite
-The structures of the EU (council of ministers & commission particularly) are fundamentally undemocratic - the same cannot be said of the UK (though the system is in need of reform)
-We do not share a language, a currency, state institutions, armed forces, 300 years of statehood, culture & pop culture etc. with the EU - we do with the UK
etc.
Fifth of Labour Party donors 'have quit' since Jeremy Corbyn became leader https://t.co/qyOnXXRdST https://t.co/R1IQRlwIdt
fwiw I'd have left these items alone as the SNP did.
Who on earth "invests" in the Labour party, particularly when it isn't in Government.
Much as I'd welcome a wider platform for Willie Young's particular brand of idiocy, I doubt he'll going forward. Mind you, it is SLab..
I have a high score of 38 so far.
Mind, if the result is going to be "out" then the best place to announce it would be Winchester, England's historical capital.
More monitor woe [obviously it self-righted again]. Ordering a new one, but if I disappear for a few days, that'll be why.