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Paddy Power have a market up on the date of the next Labour leadership election. I quite like this market because most of the other markets on the Labour leadership are about when Jeremy Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader, this market allows for an unsuccessful attempt to remove to Corbyn.

Read the full story here

foxinsoxuk

First like Leicester!

CarlottaVance

Second! Like UKIP in Oldham

edmundintokyo

What I don't have a good read on, and I'd appreciate if somebody who knows can tell us, is to what extent and on what timeline the moderates are undermined just by letting Corbyn stay in control of the party machinery.

If not for this, their obvious play would just be to sit tight and wait for Corbyn to lose elections, then make their move once they've got some concrete evidence to take to the membership. (If he's not going to lose elections they may as well just suck it up and get with the program.)

We know that there's potentially an effect on the make-up of the membership, as centrists wander off and lefties join up. On the other hand, a lot of the people who joined just to vote for Corbyn will probably fail to renew.

There's been a bit of talk about deselections, but short of removing the whip from sitting MPs, is there even anything to deselect people from this far out from an election?

Is there anything else that is going to force the moderates to make their move sooner rather than later?

foxinsoxuk

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

2016 looks best to me. The PLP is in open revolt, and the Scottish, Welsh , London and Local elections next year. Behind the Tories in Scotland might do it. It may well be an unsuccessful bid but surely someone will stand and get 35 nominees to trigger the election.

PP also has 200/1 on Chelsea for relegation. Considering their position that is surely value!

CarlottaVance

It's come to a pretty pass when "nodding off" is characterised by your enemies as "passing out because of the stress"

Corbyn, a teetotal non smoker who is probably at or below his target weight has plenty more miles left in him, god willing....

CarlottaVance

Sturgeon demands zero tolerance on obscene and despicable tax avoidance

http://tinyurl.com/hufd6tn

Does that include SNP MPs?

56
55
54
53?

JosiasJessop

foxinsoxuk said:

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

2016 looks best to me. The PLP is in open revolt, and the Scottish, Welsh , London and Local elections next year. Behind the Tories in Scotland might do it. It may well be an unsuccessful bid but surely someone will stand and get 35 nominees to trigger the election.

PP also has 200/1 on Chelsea for relegation. Considering their position that is surely value!

How can whoever stands persuade the nutters lovely people that have come out of Labour's woodwork to vote for them, without being another Corbyn-style candidate?

Any new potential leader needs to be able to persuade the membership that winning elections is more important than 'purity' of policy. Given the hyperbole and nastiness from the membership towards moderates, it seems they are not willing to listen to that message. And that message is now much harder to sell because of the OW&R win.

At the moment there will only be a leadership election if Corbyn wants one, and candidates will be selected by the people surrounding Corbyn.

That's the madness that resides at the heart of the Labour Party.

foxinsoxuk

JosiasJessop said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

2016 looks best to me. The PLP is in open revolt, and the Scottish, Welsh , London and Local elections next year. Behind the Tories in Scotland might do it. It may well be an unsuccessful bid but surely someone will stand and get 35 nominees to trigger the election.

PP also has 200/1 on Chelsea for relegation. Considering their position that is surely value!

How can whoever stands persuade the nutters lovely people that have come out of Labour's woodwork to vote for them, without being another Corbyn-style candidate?

Any new potential leader needs to be able to persuade the membership that winning elections is more important than 'purity' of policy. Given the hyperbole and nastiness from the membership towards moderates, it seems they are not willing to listen to that message. And that message is now much harder to sell because of the OW&R win.

At the moment there will only be a leadership election if Corbyn wants one, and candidates will be selected by the people surrounding Corbyn.

That's the madness that resides at the heart of the Labour Party.

It doesn't have to be successful to win the bet, and I think after next May there will be an attempt.

Whether the selectorate can come to their senses is unknown of course. Who can have a Kinnock Militant moment when the new entryists are behind the leader?

JackW

Are we safe from the AV carol singers yet ? ....

RobD

JackW said:

Are we safe from the AV carol singers yet ? ....

We'll never be safe until the day of the great event. I suspect it well then be celebrated on an annual basis

JosiasJessop

JackW said:

Are we safe from the AV carol singers yet ? ....

I did write another one yesterday, but self-moderated myself.

foxinsoxuk

Good King Smithson last looked out
On the feast of polling
Alternate votes laid round about
Deep and crisp and counted...

RobD

foxinsoxuk said:

Good King Smithson last looked out
On the feast of polling
Alternate votes laid round about
Deep and crisp and counted...

Glorious. You had me at "Good King Smithson"

blackburn63

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

tlg86

foxinsoxuk said:

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

2016 looks best to me. The PLP is in open revolt, and the Scottish, Welsh , London and Local elections next year. Behind the Tories in Scotland might do it. It may well be an unsuccessful bid but surely someone will stand and get 35 nominees to trigger the election.

PP also has 200/1 on Chelsea for relegation. Considering their position that is surely value!

Can't see them going down, but I am surprised to see them favourites - though not odds on - to win at Leicester.

JackW

RobD said:

JackW said:

Are we safe from the AV carol singers yet ? ....

We'll never be safe until the day of the great event. I suspect it well then be celebrated on an annual basis

Will the day ever arrive .... ?

The prophesy hints at three PB wise men travelling to Harpenden to seek the site messiah or a very naughty boy.

1. A bald man from the north, bearing a toupee of golden hair made in Bedford.
2. A Manchester man in red shoes of no sense bearing frankincense.
3. A Hersham man travelling aimlessly by train carrying myrrh.

And in Harpenden a AV thread will be born and all will praise it.

JosiasJessop said:

JackW said:

Are we safe from the AV carol singers yet ? ....

I did write another one yesterday, but self-moderated myself.

You too may be a wise man.

JosiasJessop

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

blackburn63

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

JosiasJessop

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

"I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here"

You must be joking! There's been much discussion about the various options, and particularly the political aspects of it for the mayoralty. The reason it's not been discussed much recently is that there's not been much news on it.

But if you want, I could start talking about HS2. If you're really good, I might write an HS2 Christmas carol ...

blackburn63

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

"I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here"

You must be joking! There's been much discussion about the various options, and particularly the political aspects of it for the mayoralty. The reason it's not been discussed much recently is that there's not been much news on it.

But if you want, I could start talking about HS2. If you're really good, I might write an HS2 Christmas carol ...

Perhaps Heathrow was not a great example. My post was an observation on "new politics", which is to spend more time besmirching opponents than actually doing things. I appreciate some people enjoy that but to me it's football terrace behaviour and politics is far more serious.

Morris_Dancer

Good morning, everyone.

I agree that 2020 is likeliest. The PLP are damned fools. They put Corbyn onto the ballot despite not supporting him, and now they're paying for their idiocy (alas, so is the country).

JackW

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

But if you want, I could start talking about HS2. If you're really good, I might write an HS2 Christmas carol ...

Only if you desire permanent exile to ConHome and to fill the vacant post of etiquette tutor of the malcolmg charm school.

CarlottaVance

Hark! The voting tellers sing
AV is the very thing!
From FPTP we have resiled
PB Tories not reconciled
Joyful, see the LibDems rise
Double digits no surprise
With Momentum far too plain
Labour unelectable again
Hark! The voting tellers sing
AV is the very thing!

JosiasJessop

JackW said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

But if you want, I could start talking about HS2. If you're really good, I might write an HS2 Christmas carol ...

Only if you desire permanent exile to ConHome and to fill the vacant post of etiquette tutor of the malcolmg charm school.

"fill the vacant post of etiquette tutor of the malcolmg charm school."

That's easy. I'd just recode his ELIZA to be an English gent, rather than a grizzly Scot.

Plato_Says

Danny Fink outlined the thrust of the Tony Benn strategy in his Times piece earlier this week.

The gist was:

- to vote with your conscience, free votes must be allowed
- when your Sh Cab vote with theirs and don't agree with yours, your team isn't acting collectively
- therefore they must be replaced with those who do agree with you
- deselect/replace the others who also disagree with you to ensure Party unity

It's got a certain elegance to it. This appears to be exactly the thinking Comrade Corbyn is following. You end up with a one-note Party - but at least they'll be loyal and sing the same version of The Internationale.

foxinsoxuk

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

2016 looks best to me. The PLP is in open revolt, and the Scottish, Welsh , London and Local elections next year. Behind the Tories in Scotland might do it. It may well be an unsuccessful bid but surely someone will stand and get 35 nominees to trigger the election.

PP also has 200/1 on Chelsea for relegation. Considering their position that is surely value!

Can't see them going down, but I am surprised to see them favourites - though not odds on - to win at Leicester.

Quite apart from Chelsea's poor form, they also have Porto in the CL this week, and Leicester are on fire. The defence has tightened up noticeably since we let in 5 against Arsenal. Still a little vulnerable from set pieces but hardly let in a goal from open play since. Vardy and Mahrez have the attention but Danny Drinkwater and Ngolo Kante are a very formidable midfield.

Looking at the fixtures though, I think we have a reasonable chance of still being top at Christmas, but I think more likely that Arsenal will be top, and us in second place.

Morris_Dancer

Miss Plato, it's a plan to win the party, but not the country.

AlastairMeeks

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

A week or so ago I wrote a draft thread header for pb along exactly those lines. Ultimately, however, I asked for it not to be published because so many other articles had been written elsewhere after I wrote it making similar points. It's a hazard of writing on mainstream topics.

blackburn63

AlastairMeeks said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

A week or so ago I wrote a draft thread header for pb along exactly those lines. Ultimately, however, I asked for it not to be published because so many other articles had been written elsewhere after I wrote it making similar points. It's a hazard of writing on mainstream topics.

Good for you Mr Meeks, keep at it. Let's examine exactly what the GOVT has done since May rather than chuck buckets of shite over Corbyn every day.

CD13

Corbyn will never be PM.

Not because he doesn't want to be but because he doesn't need to be. He'll leave the Labour party remade in his image with a younger Corbyn acolyte in place.

That is his aim. Control the levers of power, eradicate the thought-crimers, step down and bask in the reflected adulation of the grateful masses. Perhaps the odd statue or two?

MikeK

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

rcs1000

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

There most interesting question will be how well they do with the second round next week.

Last local elections in France, earlier this year, they came second in the first round, scoring in the mid 20s. But they did appallingly in the second, ending up with just 2% of the seats. The big question-to me- is whether they have become less transfer unfriendly.

blackburn63

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

I don't know much about her but Marine le Pen says brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin Wall.

rcs1000

blackburn63 said:

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

I don't know much about her but Marine le Pen says brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin Wall.

It would lead to lots of immigration into France?

watford30

Talking of duff party leaders, has Nigel 'Billy Bullshitter' Farage made an official complaint to the police about the electoral irregularities in Oldham on which he was pinning UKIP's failure? You'd think the 'banks of computers' in his office would have whirred into action by now.

JohnO

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

They have flattered to deceive in the past: my hunch is that they will do so again today.

MikeK

rcs1000 said:

blackburn63 said:

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

I don't know much about her but Marine le Pen says brexit would be like the fall of the Berlin Wall.

It would lead to lots of immigration into France?

It probably would, if Britain regained control of her own borders and acted to start changing loads of unwanted EU laws, after a Brexit.

Plato_Says

That Nick Cohen article has some great lines http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/05/jeremy-corbyn-new-politics-self-righteous-left-wallows-in-cruelty

Leftists would behave better if they stopped acting like teenage vegetarians and found the honesty to acknowledge their kinship with the rest of compromised humanity. The Corbyn generation shows no sign of doing it. And it ought to be obvious by now that Labour people will be their targets.

blackburn63

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

MikeK

Not on a Sunday pleeeeese!
https://twitter.com/busybuk/status/673419124001873920

JosiasJessop

blackburn63 said:

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

Doesn't look like it:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/16_Nov.pdf

Wanderer

I think too much hope (or fear) is pinned on next May. As there are multiple elections on the same day it's highly likely that Labour will do less than terribly in one of them and that Corbyn will pass whatever putative test has been passed. Indeed, he may exceed expectations which may be unrealistically low, as in Oldham.

rcs1000

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

Doesn't look like it:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/16_Nov.pdf

Looks like they are almost exactly split on the issue.

Plato_Says

An interesting read "It is almost impossible to exaggerate the ignorance and sheer frivolousness with which the hard-Left programme of the Labour leadership has been embraced"

...So am I suggesting that this middle-class Corbynista fashion is a kind of social neurosis? You bet I am.

Why am I convinced of this? Because one of the more shocking discoveries I have made in my researches into this bizarre syndrome is that virtually none of the bourgeois Corbyn army – especially the ones who are waving their pitchforks most energetically on social media – know the first thing about the political ideology they are endorsing. Confront them with the basic terms of the Marxist analysis which is the foundation of Corbyn-McDonnell doctrine, and you meet with a blank stare.

Dialectic – what’s that? Dictatorship of the proletariat? Sorry, no idea. Theory of surplus value? Nope. Well take it from an ex-Marxist: if you do not understand the theory of surplus value (or even recognise the term) then you know absolutely nothing about the Left-wing beliefs of the current leader of the Labour Party or of those by whom he is surrounded...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12035326/Jeremy-Corbyns-clueless-admirers-have-not-the-faintest-idea-about-his-hard-Left-beliefs.html

tlg86

Polly's got a nerve. "We all get abused on social media". Yes, and you don't shut up about it - unless it's your people doing it.

blackburn63

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

Doesn't look like it:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/16_Nov.pdf

Looks like they are almost exactly split on the issue.

Thanks for that, surprised to see 1 in 5 lib dens favour leaving.

Sean_F

JohnO said:

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

They have flattered to deceive in the past: my hunch is that they will do so again today.

The big winners will probably be the Republicans, again.

But, FN could well win Pas de Calais and Provence.

david_herdson

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What, like my thread last week?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/28/so-what-happened-to-the-long-term-plan-george/

Sean_F

rcs1000 said:

MikeK said:

Good Morning all.

The Polling stations are open!

In France this morning. First round of regional elections, the first electoral challenge since the Paris attacks, which killed 130 people.

All eyes on how the Front Nationale will do.

There most interesting question will be how well they do with the second round next week.

Last local elections in France, earlier this year, they came second in the first round, scoring in the mid 20s. But they did appallingly in the second, ending up with just 2% of the seats. The big question-to me- is whether they have become less transfer unfriendly.

There were also some successful fellow travellers like Jacques Bompard and his Ligue du Sud. But, their problem is similar to Sinn Fein's. They have a big support base, but struggle to get transfers from outside that support base.

surbiton

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Heathrow is a good topic to revisit. I will support the government on this.

I understand Sadiq Khan is against, wrongly. Zac will resign and get re-elected on this "proving" how principled he is. Unfortunately, McDonnell has a Heathrow seat.

Tories have a few problems like Putney. But Labour should see the jobs side of things. 40000 extra jobs ? I am not sure why McDonnell is against.

blackburn63

david_herdson said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What, like my thread last week?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/28/so-what-happened-to-the-long-term-plan-george/

I always make a point of congratulating you on your threads Mr Herdson

surbiton

blackburn63 said:

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

Doesn't look like it:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/16_Nov.pdf

Looks like they are almost exactly split on the issue.

Thanks for that, surprised to see 1 in 5 lib dens favour leaving.

Lib Dem "support base" is a strange lot. Immediately after the GE, half their voters do not support the party.

Begs the question: why did you vote for them just a few months back ?

blackburn63

surbiton said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Heathrow is a good topic to revisit. I will support the government on this.

I understand Sadiq Khan is against, wrongly. Zac will resign and get re-elected on this "proving" how principled he is. Unfortunately, McDonnell has a Heathrow seat.

Tories have a few problems like Putney. But Labour should see the jobs side of things. 40000 extra jobs ? I am not sure why McDonnell is against.

McDonnell is against because of noise and air pollution

Sean_F

blackburn63 said:

david_herdson said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What, like my thread last week?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/28/so-what-happened-to-the-long-term-plan-george/

I always make a point of congratulating you on your threads Mr Herdson

I think the government would be in some trouble if we had a functioning Opposition.

Innocent_Abroad

surbiton said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Heathrow is a good topic to revisit. I will support the government on this.

I understand Sadiq Khan is against, wrongly. Zac will resign and get re-elected on this "proving" how principled he is. Unfortunately, McDonnell has a Heathrow seat.

Tories have a few problems like Putney. But Labour should see the jobs side of things. 40000 extra jobs ? I am not sure why McDonnell is against.

Please explain why a new runway at Heathrow creates more jobs than a new runway at Gatwick.

blackburn63

surbiton said:

blackburn63 said:

rcs1000 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

71% of conhome members favour brexit, I wonder if that's reflected among Tory voters.

Doesn't look like it:
http://www.icmunlimited.com/data/media/pdf/16_Nov.pdf

Looks like they are almost exactly split on the issue.

Thanks for that, surprised to see 1 in 5 lib dens favour leaving.

Lib Dem "support base" is a strange lot. Immediately after the GE, half their voters do not support the party.

Begs the question: why did you vote for them just a few months back ?

Similar happened to ukip, they didn't win enough seats so people look elsewhere. I think it's to do with supporting a winning team and why parties pay money to pollsters.

malcolmg

CarlottaVance said:

Sturgeon demands zero tolerance on obscene and despicable tax avoidance

http://tinyurl.com/hufd6tn

Does that include SNP MPs?

56
55
54
53?

Ha Ha Ha , you will notice that they are struggling to find any evidence of wrongdoing. Wonder if the lying toerag Tory papers will retract their slurs when proven to be barefaced liars.

surbiton

Innocent_Abroad said:

surbiton said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Heathrow is a good topic to revisit. I will support the government on this.

I understand Sadiq Khan is against, wrongly. Zac will resign and get re-elected on this "proving" how principled he is. Unfortunately, McDonnell has a Heathrow seat.

Tories have a few problems like Putney. But Labour should see the jobs side of things. 40000 extra jobs ? I am not sure why McDonnell is against.

Please explain why a new runway at Heathrow creates more jobs than a new runway at Gatwick.

Heathrow is a more intricate job, I think. But according to the Howard Davies commission, the business case for Heathrow is overwhelming.

Gatwick, like Boris Island, can serve South and East London well and Sussex but Heathrow is better located for the rest of the country.

Heathrow is badly located as an airport in terms of fly path and noise but superb as a catchment area for travellers.

I have little sympathy regarding noise. Anyone buying a house in the fly path knew where Heathrow is situated since 1946 ! Plus planes are a lot quieter now and will be even more so in the future.

We also have double glazing today !

DavidL

There was a toast to the man on whom so much of our hopes for future success depends at the Conservative Christmas lunch yesterday.

It was quite well done and funny but as I have made clear here several times I think Corbyn is not only very bad for Labour but bad for the country.

Yesterday, despite the appalling weather, we also had a Socialist Worker group campaigning with a loudspeaker in Dundee City centre. Listening to them gives an insight to both Corbyn and those who support him. They were campaigning against bombing in Syria. According to them there is no problem in the world that Britain can't make worse, no action that Britain can take that isn't shameful, nothing bad that happens which is not our fault and nothing in our history which is not a disgrace. Yes ISIS are evil but we are so soaked in hypocrisy and self serving imperialist arrogance that we are at least as bad and we should stay away.

It is a view of our country that has a certain resonance with a small but very motivated part of our society. Yesterday was no day for feint hearts. I don't think it is the view of the vast majority of us but it seemed to me to summarise the Corbyn mindset all too well. It is also miles from the traditional view of the Labour party. Are the majority of that party no longer proud of their country, convinced it can be a force for good in the world and willing to stand up for our shared values? I find that very hard to believe.

MikeK

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

nigel4england

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Light the blue touch paper.....

Plato_Says

I thought it was rather amusing. Imagine what they'd say about my avatar...

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
ttps://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Innocent_Abroad

surbiton said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

surbiton said:

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Heathrow is a good topic to revisit. I will support the government on this.

I understand Sadiq Khan is against, wrongly. Zac will resign and get re-elected on this "proving" how principled he is. Unfortunately, McDonnell has a Heathrow seat.

Tories have a few problems like Putney. But Labour should see the jobs side of things. 40000 extra jobs ? I am not sure why McDonnell is against.

Please explain why a new runway at Heathrow creates more jobs than a new runway at Gatwick.

Heathrow is a more intricate job, I think. But according to the Howard Davies commission, the business case for Heathrow is overwhelming.

Gatwick, like Boris Island, can serve South and East London well and Sussex but Heathrow is better located for the rest of the country.

Heathrow is badly located as an airport in terms of fly path and noise but superb as a catchment area for travellers.

I have little sympathy regarding noise. Anyone buying a house in the fly path knew where Heathrow is situated since 1946 ! Plus planes are a lot quieter now and will be even more so in the future.

We also have double glazing today !

Perhaps we should build a new airport outside Milton Keynes - that would be an even better location on your theory.

When I ask a question about jobs and get an answer about noise I know that the respondent is clueless. Do you work for an airline - or, indeed, for Heathrow (I'd expect them to have put at least one stooge on here)?

Plato_Says

Rod Liddle's on top form in the STimes - he said it was a coup for politicians that they'd decided to call ISIS, Daesh instead. It meant they didn't have to mention Islam at all.

nigel4england said:

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Light the blue touch paper.....

Morris_Dancer

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, the notorious terrorist leader of the Al-Qat Brigade is not to be trifled with.

david_herdson

Sean_F said:

blackburn63 said:

david_herdson said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What, like my thread last week?

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/11/28/so-what-happened-to-the-long-term-plan-george/

I always make a point of congratulating you on your threads Mr Herdson

I think the government would be in some trouble if we had a functioning Opposition.

It probably would. At some point there will be a functioning opposition and it will come as an unpleasant surprise to the government.

Plato_Says

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Innocent_Abroad

DavidL said:

There was a toast to the man on whom so much of our hopes for future success depends at the Conservative Christmas lunch yesterday.

It was quite well done and funny but as I have made clear here several times I think Corbyn is not only very bad for Labour but bad for the country.

Yesterday, despite the appalling weather, we also had a Socialist Worker group campaigning with a loudspeaker in Dundee City centre. Listening to them gives an insight to both Corbyn and those who support him. They were campaigning against bombing in Syria. According to them there is no problem in the world that Britain can't make worse, no action that Britain can take that isn't shameful, nothing bad that happens which is not our fault and nothing in our history which is not a disgrace. Yes ISIS are evil but we are so soaked in hypocrisy and self serving imperialist arrogance that we are at least as bad and we should stay away.

It is a view of our country that has a certain resonance with a small but very motivated part of our society. Yesterday was no day for feint hearts. I don't think it is the view of the vast majority of us but it seemed to me to summarise the Corbyn mindset all too well. It is also miles from the traditional view of the Labour party. Are the majority of that party no longer proud of their country, convinced it can be a force for good in the world and willing to stand up for our shared values? I find that very hard to believe.

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Herdson, indeed.

But for the moment we have the likes of Mao.

Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, that's a small slice of tyranny. If school budgets are so tight, they could save funds by not having employees monitored online in case they exhibit dangerously non-conformist humour.

Plato_Says

Our battle cry is Ally Ackbar!

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, the notorious terrorist leader of the Al-Qat Brigade is not to be trifled with.

watford30

Plato_Says said:

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Since we don't know what she'd posted previously, it's hard to make a valid judgement without the full facts. But that won't stop frothing from the usual suspects, with a cry of "but it's on the internet it must be true".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/school-dinner-lady-sacked-after-6961217

As for employers monitoring social media, why not, it's effectively a public space?

DavidL

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

There was a toast to the man on whom so much of our hopes for future success depends at the Conservative Christmas lunch yesterday.

It was quite well done and funny but as I have made clear here several times I think Corbyn is not only very bad for Labour but bad for the country.

Yesterday, despite the appalling weather, we also had a Socialist Worker group campaigning with a loudspeaker in Dundee City centre. Listening to them gives an insight to both Corbyn and those who support him. They were campaigning against bombing in Syria. According to them there is no problem in the world that Britain can't make worse, no action that Britain can take that isn't shameful, nothing bad that happens which is not our fault and nothing in our history which is not a disgrace. Yes ISIS are evil but we are so soaked in hypocrisy and self serving imperialist arrogance that we are at least as bad and we should stay away.

It is a view of our country that has a certain resonance with a small but very motivated part of our society. Yesterday was no day for feint hearts. I don't think it is the view of the vast majority of us but it seemed to me to summarise the Corbyn mindset all too well. It is also miles from the traditional view of the Labour party. Are the majority of that party no longer proud of their country, convinced it can be a force for good in the world and willing to stand up for our shared values? I find that very hard to believe.

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

The vast majority of this country does. We believe in equality for women, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and looking after the disadvantaged of the society. Those who do believe in these values need to stand up for them not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world and that means opposing those who treat so many of their fellow humans with contempt.

MarqueeMark

You have to feel sorry for how the fates are treating moderate Labour MPs, gently sobbing at a good result for their party in Oldham West.

And then you think - nah, these same muppets put Corbyn on the ballot paper. If they could so badly misread the mood of their own membership - and the potential three-quidder membership - then I really don't want them running my country. If they took on "aw, bless..." attitude towards Corbyn, they would almost certainly have taken pity on a wave of a million "Syrian refugees". With similar unintended consequences...

blackburn63

DavidL said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

There was a toast to the man on whom so much of our hopes for future success depends at the Conservative Christmas lunch yesterday.

It was quite well done and funny but as I have made clear here several times I think Corbyn is not only very bad for Labour but bad for the country.

Yesterday, despite the appalling weather, we also had a Socialist Worker group campaigning with a loudspeaker in Dundee City centre. Listening to them gives an insight to both Corbyn and those who support him. They were campaigning against bombing in Syria. According to them there is no problem in the world that Britain can't make worse, no action that Britain can take that isn't shameful, nothing bad that happens which is not our fault and nothing in our history which is not a disgrace. Yes ISIS are evil but we are so soaked in hypocrisy and self serving imperialist arrogance that we are at least as bad and we should stay away.

It is a view of our country that has a certain resonance with a small but very motivated part of our society. Yesterday was no day for feint hearts. I don't think it is the view of the vast majority of us but it seemed to me to summarise the Corbyn mindset all too well. It is also miles from the traditional view of the Labour party. Are the majority of that party no longer proud of their country, convinced it can be a force for good in the world and willing to stand up for our shared values? I find that very hard to believe.

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

The vast majority of this country does. We believe in equality for women, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and looking after the disadvantaged of the society. Those who do believe in these values need to stand up for them not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world and that means opposing those who treat so many of their fellow humans with contempt.

Well put, but I'm not sure we need human rights and the rule of law, if the judiciary is firm enough the grey area of human rights becomes moot.

OllyT

Left Labour party recently, but does anyone know if there are moves afoot to change the current system of signing up once a leadership election is called? If Corbyn is still there in 2020 I would vote Tory as we live in an ultra Lab-Con marginal and I see Corbyn as that dangerous. However I could go back to Labour with a different leader hence I would like an opportunity to vote in a future leadership election but don't want to support a Corbyn-led party in the meantime. My guess is that Corbyn will be there in 2020 but there will have been a leadership vote triggered sometime in between which he will win if he stands. My fear is that the way things are going now the hard-left will have an unbreakable grip on party by the time Corbyn is removed. If only the Lib Dems weren't so totally uninspiring!

dr_spyn

Corbyn my enemies are spreading rumours about my health.

McDonnell I have had death threats.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-allies-accuse-mps-of-spreading-lies-about-labour-leaders-health-a6762041.html

In both cases the details are vague but they are victims.

Though if appearance is anything to go by, Jeremy does look as if he should take off on a nice holiday for a few months.

Dair

The AV and the Single
Transferrable Vote
Were battling for the minds
of the Electorate

But MPs in their palace
Want to keep their trough
And wouldnt let things change
They never got enough

They came up with arguments
like Strong Government
But all they did was defend
voting that was bent

DavidL

William McIlvanney has died. A truly great writer with a brilliant and witty turn of phrase. I have had the privilege of hearing him speak 3 times in recent years. He believed strongly in Scottish independence but in a gentle way with respect for those who did not share his views.

I think The Papers of Tony Veitch, his second Laidlaw book, was his masterpiece. I remember his description of a train station waiting room, "a receptacle for wasted time". His descriptions of Glasgow and indeed the culture of his youth where the word and debate was as encouraged as much as the fist may have been nostalgic but they highlighted something lost in Scotland and probably most other places; a love of education, of debate and a deep compassion for his fellow man.

RIP.

isam

Plato_Says said:

Rod Liddle's on top form in the STimes - he said it was a coup for politicians that they'd decided to call ISIS, Daesh instead. It meant they didn't have to mention Islam at all.

nigel4england said:

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Light the blue touch paper.....

That is most probably why! I hadn't thought of that

They really do treat us like idiots

Sean_F

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, the notorious terrorist leader of the Al-Qat Brigade is not to be trifled with.

There was a leading solicitor who recently got fired from his firm for making rude comments about Liverpool fans on YouTube, after a football match.

isam

Just caught the end of Marr and reminded that I had meant to comment earlier on how much Tristram Hunt looks like Dr Jekyll in the new ITV adaptation

MikeK

MarqueeMark said:

You have to feel sorry for how the fates are treating moderate Labour MPs, gently sobbing at a good result for their party in Oldham West.

And then you think - nah, these same muppets put Corbyn on the ballot paper. If they could so badly misread the mood of their own membership - and the potential three-quidder membership - then I really don't want them running my country. If they took on "aw, bless..." attitude towards Corbyn, they would almost certainly have taken pity on a wave of a million "Syrian refugees". With similar unintended consequences...

Unintended Consequences would be a good subject for a thread; but who will write it?

MarqueeMark

dr_spyn said:

Corbyn my enemies are spreading rumours about my health.

McDonnell I have had death threats.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-allies-accuse-mps-of-spreading-lies-about-labour-leaders-health-a6762041.html

In both cases the details are vague but they are victims.

Though if appearance is anything to go by, Jeremy does look as if he should take off on a nice holiday for a few months.

East Germany is awful cold on a motor bike this time of year.....

Sean_F

watford30 said:

Plato_Says said:

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Since we don't know what she'd posted previously, it's hard to make a valid judgement without the full facts. But that won't stop frothing from the usual suspects, with a cry of "but it's on the internet it must be true".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/school-dinner-lady-sacked-after-6961217

As for employers monitoring social media, why not, it's effectively a public space?

I think it's legitimate for an employer to discipline an employee who, outside of the workplace, badmouths the employer, fellow employees, or their customers; or (if the employer is a campaigning organisation) campaigns against the values of that organisation; or who commits a serious criminal offence. Other than that, I don't think behaviour outside the workplace is any business of the employer.

Innocent_Abroad

DavidL said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

There was a toast to the man on whom so much of our hopes for future success depends at the Conservative Christmas lunch yesterday.

It was quite well done and funny but as I have made clear here several times I think Corbyn is not only very bad for Labour but bad for the country.

Yesterday, despite the appalling weather, we also had a Socialist Worker group campaigning with a loudspeaker in Dundee City centre. Listening to them gives an insight to both Corbyn and those who support him. They were campaigning against bombing in Syria. According to them there is no problem in the world that Britain can't make worse, no action that Britain can take that isn't shameful, nothing bad that happens which is not our fault and nothing in our history which is not a disgrace. Yes ISIS are evil but we are so soaked in hypocrisy and self serving imperialist arrogance that we are at least as bad and we should stay away.

It is a view of our country that has a certain resonance with a small but very motivated part of our society. Yesterday was no day for feint hearts. I don't think it is the view of the vast majority of us but it seemed to me to summarise the Corbyn mindset all too well. It is also miles from the traditional view of the Labour party. Are the majority of that party no longer proud of their country, convinced it can be a force for good in the world and willing to stand up for our shared values? I find that very hard to believe.

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

The vast majority of this country does. We believe in equality for women, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and looking after the disadvantaged of the society. Those who do believe in these values need to stand up for them not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world and that means opposing those who treat so many of their fellow humans with contempt.

Well, you can't have freedom of expression only for those who themselves believe in freedom of expression. You can't wish away the problem of "tolerating the intolerant" with a single airy phrase. Indeed, I don't know how it can be dealt with - the devout Muslim is only an instance of a wider phenomenon.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. F, indeed.

DavidL

blackburn63 said:

DavidL said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

The vast majority of this country does. We believe in equality for women, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and looking after the disadvantaged of the society. Those who do believe in these values need to stand up for them not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world and that means opposing those who treat so many of their fellow humans with contempt.

Well put, but I'm not sure we need human rights and the rule of law, if the judiciary is firm enough the grey area of human rights becomes moot.

The rule of law is everything. Not only does it give me employment but far more importantly it is essential to a working and successful economy. Unless property rights, contracts and limitations on the role of the State are embedded progress will be limited. This has been true for nearly 300 years and although China is a challenge to the paradigm I still believe it.

Human rights, properly construed, are an essential part of that. It is their perversion into a means of control both in what can be done and said that has made them controversial. If you want to see what life is like without human rights look at Raqqa and the benighted people who live there.

MarqueeMark

MikeK said:

MarqueeMark said:

You have to feel sorry for how the fates are treating moderate Labour MPs, gently sobbing at a good result for their party in Oldham West.

And then you think - nah, these same muppets put Corbyn on the ballot paper. If they could so badly misread the mood of their own membership - and the potential three-quidder membership - then I really don't want them running my country. If they took on "aw, bless..." attitude towards Corbyn, they would almost certainly have taken pity on a wave of a million "Syrian refugees". With similar unintended consequences...

Unintended Consequences would be a good subject for a thread; but who will write it?

MikeK, the biggest Unintended Consequence in modern politics must be Labour opening up the borders, to grind the faces of the Right in multiculturalism - only to discover that the people most offended, most hurt, most riled up were their own WWC voter base...

Morris_Dancer

Mr. L, quite. Human rights is a term so broad it's essentially meaningless (cf the UN criticising the UK for, after over a decade of illegal squatting, finally forcing gypsies off a certain farm a few years ago).

Morris_Dancer

Stabbing in London considered a terrorist incident:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35018789

"Police were called to reports of people being attacked at Leytonstone around 19:00 GMT on Saturday. The knifeman reportedly shouted "this is for Syria"."

Edited extra bit: blah, should've paid more attention. The post was updated a few minutes ago, so I thought this had occurred today. My mistake.

Sean_F

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. F, indeed.

It's an unpleasant trend that an increasing number of employers do seem to want to monitor what their staff say and do in their own time.

Plato_Says

Well said. Employers seem to think they *own* their employees' lives in cases like this.

Sean_F said:

watford30 said:

Plato_Says said:

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Since we don't know what she'd posted previously, it's hard to make a valid judgement without the full facts. But that won't stop frothing from the usual suspects, with a cry of "but it's on the internet it must be true".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/school-dinner-lady-sacked-after-6961217

As for employers monitoring social media, why not, it's effectively a public space?

I think it's legitimate for an employer to discipline an employee who, outside of the workplace, badmouths the employer, fellow employees, or their customers; or (if the employer is a campaigning organisation) campaigns against the values of that organisation; or who commits a serious criminal offence. Other than that, I don't think behaviour outside the workplace is any business of the employer.

DavidL

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

Innocent_Abroad said:

DavidL said:

Who "shares" these values? Devout Muslims don't - they've been fighting Western culture for the whole time that Islam has existed as a devotional practice.

The vast majority of this country does. We believe in equality for women, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and looking after the disadvantaged of the society. Those who do believe in these values need to stand up for them not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world and that means opposing those who treat so many of their fellow humans with contempt.

Well, you can't have freedom of expression only for those who themselves believe in freedom of expression. You can't wish away the problem of "tolerating the intolerant" with a single airy phrase. Indeed, I don't know how it can be dealt with - the devout Muslim is only an instance of a wider phenomenon.

It's not easy, I agree. But the answer must be that people do not have the right not to be offended, to be challenged, to have their beliefs questioned and even ridiculed. Unintended consequences have indeed played a major part here. By protecting minorities that the majority don't agree with we have not created tolerance but encouraged intolerance and allowed views that are incompatible with our values to flourish.

It is easy to describe this in the abstract and much more difficult to apply it in practice but the limitations on freedom of speech and expression over the last 20 years have had negative consequences for the cohesion and vigour of our society.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. F, the little Hitlers of the world (overly officious sorts) must love the internet, and the opportunities it brings for interfering in their staff's lives..

Indigo

watford30 said:

Plato_Says said:

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Since we don't know what she'd posted previously, it's hard to make a valid judgement without the full facts. But that won't stop frothing from the usual suspects, with a cry of "but it's on the internet it must be true".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/school-dinner-lady-sacked-after-6961217

As for employers monitoring social media, why not, it's effectively a public space?

If you stood on Speaker's Corner and held forth about your views on this and that, without mentioning your employers or your exposition touching in anyway on their products or business practises, should they be able to discipline you for it ?

Plato_Says

For those who wondered what an abusive limerick was - here you go.

There’s a cunning fat stunt called Batman / who collects more cash than the VATman / takes kids off the streets /but shows no receipts / that cunning old stunt called Batman

kle4

blackburn63 said:

JosiasJessop said:

blackburn63 said:

What the non partisan thread author doesn't point out is the front page of the Telegraph talking about splits in the Tory party over Heathrow.

This is how pb works, continually point out the failings of the opposition to cover up one's own party's failings. Cameron is in an awful mess on so many levels and the Tories are skilfully deflecting it towards Corbyn. Good for them, you could argue, it's called politics, but it leads to poor governance.

What's your favoured solution to the problems of airport capacity in the SE?

If there's demand then build another runway, but that's not the point of my post.

I seldom see issues such as Heathrow discussed on here, I do see lots of nose thumbing and tub thumping over nothing.

Random stuff like that is brought up all the time! Heathrow in particular is an issue so raised I think there's little else to say. Unlike partisan bickering there isn't that much new to talk about.mSometimes you get half a dozen different matters brought up at the same time.

Sean_F

Indigo said:

watford30 said:

Plato_Says said:

She'd apparently committed other Facebook Like crimes and this was the final straw. Since she's a dinner lady, I can't see what business it is of her employer to *monitor* her social media at all.

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. K, if true, that's crackers.

Since we don't know what she'd posted previously, it's hard to make a valid judgement without the full facts. But that won't stop frothing from the usual suspects, with a cry of "but it's on the internet it must be true".

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/school-dinner-lady-sacked-after-6961217

As for employers monitoring social media, why not, it's effectively a public space?

If you stood on Speaker's Corner and held forth about your views on this and that, without mentioning your employers or your exposition touching in anyway on their products or business practises, should they be able to discipline you for it ?

Legally, no. They can't. But, some would try to argue you've "brought them into disrepute."

surbiton

isam said:

Plato_Says said:

Rod Liddle's on top form in the STimes - he said it was a coup for politicians that they'd decided to call ISIS, Daesh instead. It meant they didn't have to mention Islam at all.

nigel4england said:

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Light the blue touch paper.....

That is most probably why! I hadn't thought of that

They really do treat us like idiots

I support the "politicians / Cameron" on this. Daesh picked up the name "I.S" carefully and deliberately. It allowed them to represent Islam as if they were the "I.S" and the more people repeated it, the more embedded it became.

In terms of Muslim population, they are a non-entity. When you add up the heavyweight giants: Indonesia 210m, Pakistan 190m, India 190m, Bangladesh 160m. Note: none of these countries are from the Middle East. Turkey, Iran and Egypt are less than half of the above.

Daesh is puny ! They want to get the accolade of being "I.S." We should not give it to them.

kle4

isam said:

Plato_Says said:

Rod Liddle's on top form in the STimes - he said it was a coup for politicians that they'd decided to call ISIS, Daesh instead. It meant they didn't have to mention Islam at all.

nigel4england said:

MikeK said:

Marr is so boring this morning, but this may liven things up on PB, if only for a laugh>
https://twitter.com/BanTheBBC/status/673435211217014784

Light the blue touch paper.....

That is most probably why! I hadn't thought of that

They really do treat us like idiots

Thank the BBC, for unrelated reasons, for not doing the same to date at least, sticking with so called Islamic state. It doesn't ignore the Islamic connection but questions its legitimacy. Everyone should be happy with that.