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Corbyn's 59.5% LAB leadership vote share compares with Duncan Smith's 60.7% in 2001 CON contest. 2 years & 2 months later IDS was booted out

Read the full story here

madasafish

First

TheWhiteRabbit

By definition there's no good answer to that last question...

kle4

With his mandate the MPs cannot kick Corbyn out after only a few months, no matter how bad he might be, even if they had the stones to try it. If he goes early, it will voluntary, knowing he has someone else lined up.

blackburn63

Another anti ukip thread, oh well

TheWhiteRabbit

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

flightpath01 said:

SouthamObserver said:

taffys said:

''Let others do the bombing? Allow our allies to shoulder all the burden? So we can avoid spending blood and treasure? This position at least has a logic, although it is also spineless, selfish and cowardly.''

This, I sense, is the growing frustration with Osborne. Many tories feel that we should be in a position now to throw the full might of police and armed forces behind a defeat of ISIS.

Instead we are cutting back on both because Osborne does not have the guts to slash the welfare state and tell the howling liberal elite to go f8ck itself.

The welfare state is being slashed. Except in one area. We all know what that is and why the Tories will not slash it.

Pathetic and bigoted comment. Pensions are paid out of contributions as they come in. They do not affect the deficit.
The pension age is going up...by 7 years for women. This govt has tackled pension issues that labour ran away from.
We spend a massive amount of money on our armed forces.

Yes, they are paid out of contributions from non-pensioners and go to pensioners. Just like how unemployment benefit goes from working people to non-working people.

You can only get the state pension if you have made sufficient NI contributions. You can also only get contributory JSA, which is paid regardless of savings for 6 months, if you have made sufficient NI contributions too

Except it isn't. The new state pension will require 10 years "contributions" rather than 35.

An a year's contributions include:

Being on JSA or otherwise seeking work
ESA or similar unemployment benefit
Statutory sick pay
Maternity allowance, or statutory maternity/paternity/parental or similar leave
You're a carer, including a foster parent
In receipt of working tax credits
In education or qualifying training
etc. etc.

We've got to wake up and smell the coffee on this one.

So you will still only be able to get it if you have made sufficient contributions. You cannot get contributory JSA if you have only received income based JSA although they are both paid at the same rate, full entitlement to the state pension also requires contributions of a sufficiently high level

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

AlastairMeeks

blackburn63 said:

Another anti ukip thread, oh well

It reads more like an anti-pollster thread. It looks like a careless omission.

blackburn63

AlastairMeeks said:

blackburn63 said:

Another anti ukip thread, oh well

It reads more like an anti-pollster thread. It looks like a careless omission.

Yes but you can sense the glee in MS's tweet

AlastairMeeks

The polling on who is trusted "to keep me and my family safe" should be illuminating.

kle4

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

kle4

AlastairMeeks said:

The polling on who is trusted "to keep me and my family safe" should be illuminating.

Yes indeed. My suspicion is there won't be as big a gap as one might think, a lot of 'I don't like this person so I'll vote in the negative on this specific issue' reaction perhaps.

MarqueeMark

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

madasafish

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

I'm expecting Trump to be the Republican candidate and lose to Hilary..

HYUFD

MarqueeMark said:

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

Hilary Benn will probably be Labour's Michael Howard and replace Corbyn unopposed in about 2 years, both Corbyn and IDS lacked sufficient support in the parliamentary party to keep them there longer term unless they developed sufficient poll leads

TheWhiteRabbit

I think the last week has shown that Benn has enough personal support to be Corbyn's replacement, if he goes quickly.

HYUFD

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

Plato_Says

Benn put up a pretty solid performance on Sky earlier - sounded robust, sensible and in charge.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

I think the last week has shown that Benn has enough personal support to be Corbyn's replacement, if he goes quickly.

HYUFD

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

SimonStClare

Farage tops Cameron in one leadership poll and is ignored in the next – It’s a cruel world.

Theuniondivvie

I'm sure the Union flag is strong enough to withstand this kind of association. Of course, some will think this sort of thing adds to the 'brand'.

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668067603382935552

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668070065531654144

ThreeQuidder

SimonStClare said:

Farage tops Cameron in one leadership poll and is ignored in the next – It’s a cruel world.

He presumably disqualified himself by resigning...

Mortimer

HYUFD said:

MarqueeMark said:

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

Hilary Benn will probably be Labour's Michael Howard and replace Corbyn unopposed in about 2 years, both Corbyn and IDS lacked sufficient support in the parliamentary party to keep them there longer term unless they developed sufficient poll leads

If only someone had been going on about this for several months, it might be an entirely unoriginal theory by now.

Oh, wait...

TheWhiteRabbit

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

William_H

I'm not sure comparing IDS and Corbyn is very useful. Comparing a 2 way election to a 4 way election is misleading, but on the other hand IDS had far more support - and far less hostility - in the parliamentary party, which is why he was able to get put to the voters in the first place.

If Labour had the Tory system of electing its leader, I'd think Andy Burnham would now be sitting pretty comfortably as leader.

OldKingCole

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dunno what’s gone wrong, but my comment is below.Above the X’s was White Rabbit’s comment.

As an OAP who is reasonably, although not very, well off .....finances went badly wrong in my forties ...... I wouldn’t mind if my Christmas Bonus (still £10) and Winter Fuel Allowance were taxed, nor the val;ue of my TV licence. I also wouldn’t mind paying a contribution .... say £10 pa ... for my bus pass. Pensioners using bus passes do at least help to keep routes open!

Plato_Says

Blimey http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12009370/Mali-Bamako-terrorist-attack-170-hostages-Paris-Belgium-live.html#update-20151121-1524

Jan Jambon, the Belgian interior minister, announced he wants a house-to-house search of every address in Molenbeek to see who is living there, noting that some addresses with two registered inhabitants have 10 people there.

HYUFD

Mortimer said:

HYUFD said:

MarqueeMark said:

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

Hilary Benn will probably be Labour's Michael Howard and replace Corbyn unopposed in about 2 years, both Corbyn and IDS lacked sufficient support in the parliamentary party to keep them there longer term unless they developed sufficient poll leads

If only someone had been going on about this for several months, it might be an entirely unoriginal theory by now.

Oh, wait...

Still true though

HYUFD

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

SandraM

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

HYUFD said:

MarqueeMark said:

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

Hilary Benn will probably be Labour's Michael Howard and replace Corbyn unopposed in about 2 years, both Corbyn and IDS lacked sufficient support in the parliamentary party to keep them there longer term unless they developed sufficient poll leads

If only someone had been going on about this for several months, it might be an entirely unoriginal theory by now.

Oh, wait...

Still true though

After "Poets For Corby", how about "Poets Against Corbyn"?

I offer;

Hilary Benn
Not if?, but when?

HYUFD

William_H said:

I'm not sure comparing IDS and Corbyn is very useful. Comparing a 2 way election to a 4 way election is misleading, but on the other hand IDS had far more support - and far less hostility - in the parliamentary party, which is why he was able to get put to the voters in the first place.

If Labour had the Tory system of electing its leader, I'd think Andy Burnham would now be sitting pretty comfortably as leader.

Ken Clarke would have probably won the MPs vote in 2001

OldKingCole

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

TheWhiteRabbit

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

MTimT

For those who follow US politics and have read the Democrats' claims over the years that many voters in their old redoubts in the South are voting against their own economic interests by voting GOP, this is a very good article.

It reminds me of what was behind Major's victory - voters voting their aspirations not their current circumstance, which is anything but voting against their own economic interests but more enlightened than their Dem critics would have them be. But there also seems to be an element that I've seen in PB Tory posts re the benefits discussion here - railing against the sense of entitlement of those who don't try to help themselves but fall into dependency on welfare.

Whatever your position on the issues, it is a worthwhile read and thought-provoking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/opinion/sunday/who-turned-my-blue-state-red.html?ref=opinion

PS for the occasional follower of US politics, blue is Dem and red is Republican.

Scott_P

@politicshome: Recap: Corbyn and McDonnell: UN resolution has not changed Labour's stance on Syria action. https://t.co/eOPeYKmKJl https://t.co/hVzZP4lYet

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Point of pedantry: the polling is on whether Corbyn ought to be ousted, not whether he will be.

richardDodd

Re Pensions.. I left school at Fifteen and paid NI until I reached 65..The pensions people told me they had lost the National Coal Board info from the fifties and were deducting 3 years pension allocation..If I had never paid in then I would have received more pension

eek

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

What about those who are married and choose not to work while raising children...

HYUFD

MTimT said:

For those who follow US politics and have read the Democrats' claims over the years that many voters in their old redoubts in the South are voting against their own economic interests by voting GOP, this is a very good article.

It reminds me of what was behind Major's victory - voters voting their aspirations not their current circumstance, which is anything but voting against their own economic interests but more enlightened than their Dem critics would have them be. But there also seems to be an element that I've seen in PB Tory posts re the benefits discussion here - railing against the sense of entitlement of those who don't try to help themselves but fall into dependency on welfare.

Whatever your position on the issues, it is a worthwhile read and thought-provoking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/opinion/sunday/who-turned-my-blue-state-red.html?ref=opinion

PS for the occasional follower of US politics, blue is Dem and red is Republican.

There are blue collar Republicans and Tories, there are also wealthy and socially liberal Democrats and Labour voters

HYUFD

SandraM said:

HYUFD said:

Mortimer said:

HYUFD said:

MarqueeMark said:

Does anybody actually have any idea HOW to remove Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party? If Jeremy ain't for jumping, it looks like one of those theoretical questions he refuses to answer....

Hilary Benn will probably be Labour's Michael Howard and replace Corbyn unopposed in about 2 years, both Corbyn and IDS lacked sufficient support in the parliamentary party to keep them there longer term unless they developed sufficient poll leads

If only someone had been going on about this for several months, it might be an entirely unoriginal theory by now.

Oh, wait...

Still true though

After "Poets For Corby", how about "Poets Against Corbyn"?

I offer;

Hilary Benn
Not if?, but when?

Exactly right

Cromwell

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Morris_Dancer

More modern history, recounting the Fourth Crusade, its implications in history and for today:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-fourth-crusade.html

MTimT

HYUFD said:

MTimT said:

For those who follow US politics and have read the Democrats' claims over the years that many voters in their old redoubts in the South are voting against their own economic interests by voting GOP, this is a very good article.

It reminds me of what was behind Major's victory - voters voting their aspirations not their current circumstance, which is anything but voting against their own economic interests but more enlightened than their Dem critics would have them be. But there also seems to be an element that I've seen in PB Tory posts re the benefits discussion here - railing against the sense of entitlement of those who don't try to help themselves but fall into dependency on welfare.

Whatever your position on the issues, it is a worthwhile read and thought-provoking:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/opinion/sunday/who-turned-my-blue-state-red.html?ref=opinion

PS for the occasional follower of US politics, blue is Dem and red is Republican.

There are blue collar Republicans and Tories, there are also wealthy and socially liberal Democrats and Labour voters

Well, that is an illuminating comment. What on earth is your point?

HYUFD

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

Not if they run businesses involving land and property although you can pay it voluntarily

HYUFD

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

Or those who had their JSA payments stopped, stay at home wives who never had children etc

HYUFD

eek said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

What about those who are married and choose not to work while raising children...

If you receive child benefit you get NI credits

HYUFD

richardDodd said:

Re Pensions.. I left school at Fifteen and paid NI until I reached 65..The pensions people told me they had lost the National Coal Board info from the fifties and were deducting 3 years pension allocation..If I had never paid in then I would have received more pension

Not if you had not got any NI contributions in that time

AlastairMeeks

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Meeks, I do wonder how the Labour MPs who don't support Corbyn feel about their decision to nominate him.

MTimT

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

This is tantamount to a constitutional change away from a limited-term transfer of authority to elected MPs towards a referendum of party members on all major policy issues. What in practice that would mean is that no necessary but painful decisions would ever be made and implemented.

AndyJS

I suppose an important question is what will Corbyn's supporters do when he's eventually forced out of office. Will they stay in the party or form a new one?

Plato_Says

It's hilarious

MTimT said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

This is tantamount to a constitutional change away from a limited-term transfer of authority to elected MPs towards a referendum of party members on all major policy issues. What in practice that would mean is that no necessary but painful decisions would ever be made and implemented.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. T, it's as mad as PR, which would splinter the political system and promote special interest groups over broad (but less ideologically driven) church parties.

HYUFD

Cromwell said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Trump is a billionaire and businessman who went to Ivy League Penn U Corbyn is a political hack with two Es at A Level to put it another way. Trump's anti immigration message is exactly what the GOP base wants to hear as Corbyn's anti austerity message is what the Labour base want to hear so I repeat Trump will hold his lead in the polls and in electoral terms defeat the pro immigration Rubio and Bush much as Corbyn beat the austerity lite Burnham and Cooper and Kendall

TheWhiteRabbit

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

What proportion of people is that really going to effect?

"you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI"

You can get the basic state pension if you make Class 2 NI payments, which only requires self-employment income of c.£6,000. If you are full-time self-employed but do not earn c.£6,000 you are likely to be in receipt of working tax credits anyway which would qualify you for the state pension.

"You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up"

So in reality the only people who won't be eligible are people who haven't spent their lives in this country or were so well off they never needed to work.

In any circumstance you will be in receipt of a qualifying benefit or have made

Or those who had their JSA payments stopped, stay at home wives who never had children etc

Stay at home wives can also make voluntary payments.

It's very unlikely that someone has their JSA stopped for forty years, and is not in receipt of any other qualifying benefit.

My whole point was that, practically speaking, there is almost no contributory element to the state pension.

The vast majority of people will now receive it; the level of the payment is even flatter than it was, and bears no relation to the actual extent of NI payments (only payment years); there's no pension fund to speak of.

All the current rules achieve is effectively a residency test.

richardDodd

HYFUD I did pay.. no choice..it was deducted from my wages..The Pensions people openly admit that was probably the case but have no record of it and quite happily tell me the records have been lost..therefore they are working on the assumption that the NI was not paid..because they have no records of it.. which they admit they have lost...does this sound familiar...They certainly have a record of my employment with the NCB because I was given the miners lung compensation package some years ago.

MikeK

I missed this. Pity.
https://twitter.com/jlj21964/status/668004562855444480

MTimT

HYUFD said:

Cromwell said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Trump is a billionaire and businessman who went to Ivy League Penn U Corbyn is a political hack with two Es at A Level to put it another way. Trump's anti immigration message is exactly what the GOP base wants to hear as Corbyn's anti austerity message is what the Labour base want to hear so I repeat Trump will hold his lead in the polls and in electoral terms defeat the pro immigration Rubio and Bush much as Corbyn beat the austerity lite Burnham and Cooper and Kendall

Cromwell is voicing what I expect and hope for, HYUFD what I fear.

MTimT

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. T, it's as mad as PR, which would splinter the political system and promote special interest groups over broad (but less ideologically driven) church parties.

Totally agree.

ReggieCide

Plato_Says said:

Blimey http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12009370/Mali-Bamako-terrorist-attack-170-hostages-Paris-Belgium-live.html#update-20151121-1524

Jan Jambon, the Belgian interior minister, announced he wants a house-to-house search of every address in Molenbeek to see who is living there, noting that some addresses with two registered inhabitants have 10 people there.

You mean they have forfeited their right to vote!

Scott_P

@AlanRoden: Sturgeon under pressure to hand back £10k from anti fox-hunting lobby as outrage grows https://t.co/lIiUh8J7oJ

MTimT

SeanT said:

Absolutely catastrophic for Labour if that was ever properly implemented. As we know from the election of Corbyn, the Labour membership is way way to the Left of the average Brit (and, like all party political activists, much crazier).

Given the chance they'd vote for 80% tax rates on the rich, unlimited immigration, abandoning Trident, prosecuting the Daily Mail, shooting Kate Middleton with a stun gun, nationalising sweet shops, giving Sussex back to Argentina.

Heh. Go on, Jezza, do it.

Mr Knox-Tremayne, long time no see posting here (probably more my absence than yours). Any good travels recently. Mine to Gilgit in northern Pakistan was delayed due to the earthquake bringing 42 landslides down on the road. Still hope to get there in late spring.

dr_spyn

Corbyn speaks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34886321

ReggieCide

Cromwell said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Vote for the hapless fool Corbyn 'cos he's actually quite a nice bloke. That ought to do it (fill in your own interpretation of "it")

MTimT

dr_spyn said:

Corbyn speaks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34886321

Vacuosity to infinity. As if no-one has ever thought to try to negotiate, or as if absent these comments there is no pressure to seek a political solution. Motherhood with no substance.

malcolmg

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure the Union flag is strong enough to withstand this kind of association. Of course, some will think this sort of thing adds to the 'brand'.

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668067603382935552

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668070065531654144

Typical unionist behaviour unfortunately.

HYUFD

MTimT said:

HYUFD said:

Cromwell said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a situation where we are expecting Republican primary voters to be more sensible than our voters?

No Republican voters are in as anti establishment a mood as Labour voters with ideology before electability it seems, Cruz and Carson are also near the top. Rubio and Jeb Bush could well be the Republicans Burnham and Cooper with Kasich their Kendall

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Trump is a billionaire and businessman who went to Ivy League Penn U Corbyn is a political hack with two Es at A Level to put it another way. Trump's anti immigration message is exactly what the GOP base wants to hear as Corbyn's anti austerity message is what the Labour base want to hear so I repeat Trump will hold his lead in the polls and in electoral terms defeat the pro immigration Rubio and Bush much as Corbyn beat the austerity lite Burnham and Cooper and Kendall

Cromwell is voicing what I expect and hope for, HYUFD what I fear.

I would agree Rubio would be a better general election bet but his biggest battle will be the primaries

malcolmg

Scott_P said:

@AlanRoden: Sturgeon under pressure to hand back £10k from anti fox-hunting lobby as outrage grows https://t.co/lIiUh8J7oJ

Only in the minds of losers like Roden and you.

Richard_Nabavi

The Labour Party is acting out the plot of the Midwich Cuckoos. Who will be Gordon Zellarby?

kjohnw

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

Corbyn seems determined to make Britain a one party (Conservative) State without any opposition. How many years will labour be in the wilderness, will they even recover from this?

MTimT

SeanT said:

Le Soir ‏@lesoir 41s42 seconds ago
Les autorités sont à la recherche de deux personnes, dont l'une transporterait une bombe http://bit.ly/1MJ0kch

Almost reminds me of Snow Crash.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. G, I'd consider myself a unionist. Do you think if we happened to meet I'd try to kick you?

malcolmg

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI


My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

kle4

MTimT said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratical action."

This is tantamount to a constitutional change away from a limited-term transfer of authority to elected MPs towards a referendum of party members on all major policy issues. What in practice that would mean is that no necessary but painful decisions would ever be made and implemented.

Sounds like a recipe for chaos, and hilarity. I hope he goes for it. Either against reason it will prove worthwhile, or it will fail with spectacular results.

malcolmg

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. G, I'd consider myself a unionist. Do you think if we happened to meet I'd try to kick you?

MD, I think not , I was referring to the Scottish ones who are invariably loyalists as well. Sloppy posting I admit but TUD would have understood.

PS: To be fair to unionists I think only about 6 turned up and that on a lovely day , still 3 times the amount that turned out in Wales

not_on_fire

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

ReggieCide

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

There is no way this will produce university debating society policies. This will produce playground policies and none that do not come down to soaking the rich (individuals and corporates) and increasing benefits to levels that make "a life of Reilly" possible for all, except of course those who don't presently need help achieve this, who will be taxed until they do need help.

kle4

kjohnw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the demal action."

Corbyn seems determined to make Britain a one party (Conservative) State without any opposition. How many years will labour be in the wilderness, will they even recover from this?

Sooner than we may think, given the Tories are not likely to rise any higher in terms of popularity, and so even if they keep winning they won't be out of sight. I'm really looking forward to the next set of big elections, if Labour do well or hold up in those, the Tories cannot become complacent even if it seems like they should be able to.

ReggieCide

MTimT said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the democratic decisions of our conference have been ignored by the party leadership,

To many, it’s felt like a small cabal in Westminster decides, while you’re expected to be loyal foot soldiers pounding the streets for Labour.

But we want people to be able to participate in politics.. to have a direct voice in every part of their lives.

Our leadership election gave an insight into what can be achieved – 400,000 people were mobilised to vote, and more than half voted online.

Every week I’ve been asking people for their suggestions of what I could raise with David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions – and thousands of people send in their own questions.

Over the summer, the parliamentary party got a decision badly wrong. We abstained on the welfare bill.

Would we have made that mistake if we had asked you, our members, what we should have done?

Why not give members the chance to take part in indicative online ballots on policy in between annual conferences – and give our grassroots members and supporters a real say?

We want to see this democratic revolution extend into our party.. opening up decision-making.. to the hundreds of thousands of new members and supporters that have joined us since May.

It’s a huge opportunity for Labour: to remake our party as a real social movement.. organising and rooted in our communities.

That’s not about fighting sectarian battles or settling political scores.

It’s about being open to the people we seek to represent … giving them a voice through our organisation and policy-making.. and drawing members into political action."

This is tantamount to a constitutional change away from a limited-term transfer of authority to elected MPs towards a referendum of party members on all major policy issues. What in practice that would mean is that no necessary but painful decisions would ever be made and implemented.

I think lots of painful decisions would be made just not for Labour members.

AlastairMeeks

It's a power grab. Jeremy Corbyn is isolated among his fellow MPs. He has huge support among the membership. So naturally he's seeking to transfer power from the shadow cabinet and MPs to his power base.

malcolmg

not_on_fire said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

Is that subject to my earnings , I will have £170+ state pension and multiple times that in private pension.

SimonStClare

AlastairMeeks said:

It's a power grab. Jeremy Corbyn is isolated among his fellow MPs. He has huge support among the membership. So naturally he's seeking to transfer power from the shadow cabinet and MPs to his power base.

By-passing the elected members and handing controlling power to the Corbynites….

What could go wrong?

ReggieCide

AndyJS said:

I suppose an important question is what will Corbyn's supporters do when he's eventually forced out of office. Will they stay in the party or form a new one?

If Jehadi Jez hangs around for any length of time, Labour will be deeply riddled with his acolytes many of whom out-looney JJ and who will own the Labour label. It would have to be a new party and there are lots of Labour (and Conservative) voters who wouldn't have a clue about anything other than voting for a label. This is what JJ is striving for now.

Cromwell

HYUFD said:

Cromwell said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

So with Trump's rated chance being similar to that Corbyn had, is this a s

====================

RUBIO is the US version of Burnham...surely you jest ?...there are few comparisons between the LP and the Republicans but if I had to search for a somewhat'' close ''proximity it would be David Miliband

Furthermore , there is no comparison between Trump and Corbyn ...Corbyn is a career politician with over 30 yrs experience as an MP ; it's true that he never expected to win the leadership race but when the opportunity presented itself he convinced himself that he should take it

Donald Trump is an egotistic , boorish ignoramus , completely unsuited to politics by temperament and education ;furthermore , he never ever expected to actually win and would be horrified if the Presidency were actually forced upon him ...the man is a natural bully and embryonic tyrant , used to having his employees fawning and grovelling to him and completely lacks any humility or diplomatic skills ..he would be horrified to be a ''prisoner of the presidency ''and cannot take any criticism without responding like a big spoilt child (which is essentially what he is )

Whatever faults Corbyn has , he has at least a measure of humility and a genuine desire to help the less fortunate ; he may well be a hapless fool but is a genuinely decent but misguided fellow

The Republicans have recognised that they have the best chance of winning the presidency since G W BUSH and they are not going to allow a publicity hound and ego-manic like Trump to ruin it for them ...if Trump doesn't self destruct they will do a hatchet job on him

Maro Rubio will not only win the nomination he will decisively crush Hillary

Trump is a billionaire and businessman who went to Ivy League Penn U Corbyn is a political hack with two Es at A Level to put it another way. Trump's anti immigration message is exactly what the GOP base wants to hear as Corbyn's anti austerity message is what the Labour base want to hear so I repeat Trump will hold his lead in the polls and in electoral terms defeat the pro immigration Rubio and Bush much as Corbyn beat the austerity lite Burnham and Cooper and Kendall

------------
You should run along and bet on that revelation when you have the chance , but be aware that there are good reasons for so many folks to have bet on Rubio and crunched his odds down to 6-4
We are going to find out in the next month or so just how much support Trump really has , or how much of it will actually turn out to vote !...you are going to look quite foolish when his support melts away as serious voters turn out to vote

I find it simply astonishing that any serious political pundit can possibly take Trump seriously

The_Apocalypse

LOL at Corbyn. If there's any cue for Labour MPs to rally around Benn, and kick Corbyn out, it's now.

kle4

SeanT said:

This is absolutely fascinating. Inside the media dept of ISIS. Cue cards at beheadings. 36 offices across the Caliphate. Multiple angles on swords.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-the-islamic-states-propaganda-machine/2015/11/20/051e997a-8ce6-11e5-acff-673ae92ddd2b_story.html

It's a state, it's fecking dangerous, and it needs to be taken out, now.

Apparently everyone is writing about the IS media machine at the moment, as in this (serious-ish) piece on a comedy website even. "7 Things I Learned Reading Every Issue Of ISIS's Magazine"

http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

kle4

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at Corbyn. If there's any cue for Labour MPs to rally around Benn, and kick Corbyn out, it's now.

I wish I knew more about the apparently numerous Corbyn supporters out there. I've had people who are non-voters, and people with deep Labour roots (parents took them on anti-thatcher demonstrations, that sort of thing) despair at him, but Labour's polling is ok (with the usual caveats about polling at present), and his tactics must be supported by some people, surely, even if not everyone in Labour would agree with his objectives.

Scott_P

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at Corbyn. If there's any cue for Labour MPs to rally around Benn, and kick Corbyn out, it's now.

The third problem is that if Labour MPs don’t do something about him, there are growing signs the voters will. The word among Labour MPs is that their party is in trouble in the Oldham by-election. One northern MP said: “The white working class vote is haemorrhaging. And it’s haemorrhaging in our heartlands. We’re reaching the point where you’re going to see double-digit constituencies drifting into recount territory.”

they are now questioning the benefit of surviving a Corbynite purge, only to then be purged by the electorate.

“People are going to move now,” one MP told me. “The question isn’t 'if’ any more, it’s 'when’.” Maybe. But many more weeks like the last, and it’s a move that will come too late.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/12009705/If-Labour-MPs-dont-do-something-about-Jeremy-Corbyn-the-voters-will.html

ReggieCide

MTimT said:

dr_spyn said:

Corbyn speaks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34886321

Vacuosity to infinity. As if no-one has ever thought to try to negotiate, or as if absent these comments there is no pressure to seek a political solution. Motherhood with no substance.

I think the substance might be a pup

kle4

Scott_P said:

The_Apocalypse said:

LOL at Corbyn. If there's any cue for Labour MPs to rally around Benn, and kick Corbyn out, it's now.

The third problem is that if Labour MPs don’t do something about him, there are growing signs the voters will. The word among Labour MPs is that their party is in trouble in the Oldham by-election. One northern MP said: “The white working class vote is haemorrhaging. And it’s haemorrhaging in our heartlands. We’re reaching the point where you’re going to see double-digit constituencies drifting into recount territory.”

they are now questioning the benefit of surviving a Corbynite purge, only to then be purged by the electorate.

“People are going to move now,” one MP told me. “The question isn’t 'if’ any more, it’s 'when’.” Maybe. But many more weeks like the last, and it’s a move that will come too late.

l
I'm sure their white working class vote is still in trouble, from its historic highs, but I still have trouble believing they are genuinely in trouble in the by-election. Presumably they are describing 'trouble' as a less than enormous majority. Which would be a problem, admittedly.

Sunil_Prasannan

IDS never lost a General Election as Tory Leader

notme

kle4 said:

kjohnw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the demal action."

Corbyn seems determined to make Britain a one party (Conservative) State without any opposition. How many years will labour be in the wilderness, will they even recover from this?

Sooner than we may think, given the Tories are not likely to rise any higher in terms of popularity, and so even if they keep winning they won't be out of sight. I'm really looking forward to the next set of big elections, if Labour do well or hold up in those, the Tories cannot become complacent even if it seems like they should be able to.

It has been traditional for even crap oppositions to get cracking election results between general elections. Hague got some phenomenal results. Year after year he was murdering labour in local elections, and the euro election that came up, but come the GE, it was another labour landslide, barely a point moved. Even IDS, again, was storming local government elections, like a Jonah Lomu through a weak defence.

kle4

notme said:

kle4 said:

kjohnw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Jeremy Corbyn confirms his intention to marginalise MPs:

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/we-want-to-see-this-democratic-revolution-extend-full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-to-south-west-conference/

"Too often in the past, the demal action."

Corbyn seems determined to make Britain a one party (Conservative) State without any opposition. How many years will labour be in the wilderness, will they even recover from this?

Sooner than we may think, given the Tories are not likely to rise any higher in terms of popularity, and so even if they keep winning they won't be out of sight. I'm really looking forward to the next set of big elections, if Labour do well or hold up in those, the Tories cannot become complacent even if it seems like they should be able to.

It has been traditional for even crap oppositions to get cracking election results between general elections. Hague got some phenomenal results. Year after year he was murdering labour in local elections, and the euro election that came up, but come the GE, it was another labour landslide, barely a point moved. Even IDS, again, was storming local government elections, like a Jonah Lomu through a weak defence.

Good point, good point. So now way to be sure they are holding up ok for a GE, even if decent results come in.

Eastwinger

not_on_fire said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

Only if the combined income of you and your partner is less than £230.85 per week.

Cromwell

Having lived in America for 25 yrs my view of Americans is that when it comes to money or ''getting ahead '' they are both ruthless and pragmatic ...they are an ingenious problem solving people with a ''can do '' attitude ...even the most religious types don't let their principles get in the way of making money
Generally speaking , these types of folks gravitate towards the Republicans more than the democrats ....the Republican leadership will not allow a showman like Trump to ruin their chance of winning the presidency ...they will crush him if he refuses to drop out

The latest terrorist outrage in Paris will benefit Rubio more than anyone else ; he is the Foreign policy ''Hawk'' and with national security looming large it is somewhat similar to 1979-80 and the rise of the ''Hawk'' Ronald Reagan ...after Obama's toothless Presidency and the Bengazi debacle the voters are not going to trust Hillary

AndyJS

SeanT said:

This is absolutely fascinating. Inside the media dept of ISIS. Cue cards at beheadings. 36 offices across the Caliphate. Multiple angles on swords.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-the-islamic-states-propaganda-machine/2015/11/20/051e997a-8ce6-11e5-acff-673ae92ddd2b_story.html

It's a state, it's fecking dangerous, and it needs to be taken out, now.

Everyone agrees they ought to be destroyed, apart from Corbyn and his supporters.

malcolmg

Eastwinger said:

not_on_fire said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

Only if the combined income of you and your partner is less than £230.85 per week.

Thanks to both for information , I did not think she would get anything, I will have a sizeable private pension on top of state pension.

Eastwinger

malcolmg said:

Eastwinger said:

not_on_fire said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

Only if the combined income of you and your partner is less than £230.85 per week.

Thanks to both for information , I did not think she would get anything, I will have a sizeable private pension on top of state pension.

My wife and I are in a similar position Malcolm. She worked for 15 years but mostly part time although paying a full stamp when she earnt enough. My state pension, private pension and savings mean that she can't claim pension credit.

Its meant to help those on very low income which is fair enough.

notme

Sunil_Prasannan said:

IDS never lost a General Election as Tory Leader

touché

Eh_ehm_a_eh

Theuniondivvie said:

I'm sure the Union flag is strong enough to withstand this kind of association. Of course, some will think this sort of thing adds to the 'brand'.

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668067603382935552

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/668070065531654144

One shoe, now he's a real weegie.

Razedabode

From Andrew Neil..

@afneil: Tomorrow's Comres poll in tomorrow's @DailyMirror and @Independent will be cause for concern for Labour.

malcolmg

Eastwinger said:

malcolmg said:

Eastwinger said:

not_on_fire said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

TheWhiteRabbit said:

HYUFD said:

OK HYFUD, explain to me how a person could possibly be ordinarily resident in the UK for their entire life and not qualify for the new state pension?

They have not made sufficient NI contributions or NI credit payments for 30 years e.g. they were self employed or out of work and did not claim child benefit or carers benefit or their JSA was stopped as they were not looking for work. The biggest problem for pensioners is non contributory benefits like winter fuel allowance and bus passes and TV licenses which are not means tested not the state pension

The new state pension qualification is ten years for most people.

The only people who are out of work but not in receipt of any form of qualifying benefit for 30+ years of their lives will be those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

You may not be eligible for JSA you may not have children or they may have grown up and you are no longer eligible for child benefit or you may have been self employed and thus never paid NI

Self-employed pay NI

My wife worked for about 13 years, I think we had some child benefit and she is due to get a state pension of £42. If she had been a waster and claimed unemployment all her life she would have got full pension, crazy system.

She will be eligible for pension credit to bring her up to about £140/week.

Only if the combined income of you and your partner is less than £230.85 per week.

Thanks to both for information , I did not think she would get anything, I will have a sizeable private pension on top of state pension.

My wife and I are in a similar position Malcolm. She worked for 15 years but mostly part time although paying a full stamp when she earnt enough. My state pension, private pension and savings mean that she can't claim pension credit.

Its meant to help those on very low income which is fair enough.

Yes agree, I never expected to get anything , I certainly will not be needing it so no issue.