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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?
    Well, better than discussing Nicola's potential U-Turn on Syria, from

    Sturgeon said that UK airstrikes would “simply add to already unimaginable human suffering”, and that “the SNP will oppose UK airstrikes on Syria”. No ifs or buts.

    To 'prepared to listen'.....

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/paris-attacks-game-changer-scotland-snp-defence-policy

    Then of course, there's the $20/oil story.......
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Odd what happened to the self-employed. Was there a change in the rules?

    Fraser Nelson
    And for those asking about the quality of jobs created over last five years... https://t.co/30sEicpnSp https://t.co/mXjDjfNM1L

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    edited 2015 20
    There's a reason why this week UKIP have gone from 8/1 to 3/1 to win the Oldham West & Royton by election

    https://twitter.com/marcusaroberts/status/667639054419259392
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Without comment:

    Thanks largely to this parsimonious funding, the NHS is rated by most economists as highly efficient. Yet the OECD’s latest “Health at a Glance 2015” report finds that its record on patient care is not that impressive. On a range of indicators, from fatalities after heart attacks to asthma admission rates to cervical, breast and colorectal cancer survival rates, Britain does badly compared with other rich countries. The NHS is also missing many of its own targets for such things as accident and emergency admissions, cancer referrals and ambulance response times. Nigel Edwards of the Nuffield Trust think-tank concludes that lower investment in health care in Britain is matched by “mediocre performance across the board”....

    It has often been said that the only subject health ministers ever discuss with the medical profession is money. As he prepares for the junior doctors’ walkout and for another tough public-spending round, Mr Hunt seems destined to find that to be truer than ever.
    http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21678827-government-under-fire-not-just-junior-doctors-health-economists
    Yes, as has often been said, the dirty little secret of the NHS is that it is cheap.

    Or mismanaged and badly run.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    "If you cannot keep the people safe, in their eyes that's a disqualification from office."

    Yes and I'm sure people would feel very safe with him in charge ha
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    That, or a deliberately leaked plan, to try to encourage more people to join it. I agree with you that its chances of success look slim.

    The Next Labour Leader may well be of a party of 50 MPs.
    When you write articles, some look embarrassing with hindsight and some you're pleased with. This is one of the ones I'm pleased with:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/10/10/antifrank-says-corbyns-strategy-is-we-only-have-to-be-lucky-once/
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    That, or a deliberately leaked plan, to try to encourage more people to join it. I agree with you that its chances of success look slim.

    The Next Labour Leader may well be of a party of 50 MPs.
    When you write articles, some look embarrassing with hindsight and some you're pleased with. This is one of the ones I'm pleased with:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/10/10/antifrank-says-corbyns-strategy-is-we-only-have-to-be-lucky-once/
    :) - and this ain't aging too badly either: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/09/08/should-labour-move-swiftly-to-depose-corbyn/

    Do you want to set up a consultancy?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    That, or a deliberately leaked plan, to try to encourage more people to join it. I agree with you that its chances of success look slim.

    The Next Labour Leader may well be of a party of 50 MPs.
    When you write articles, some look embarrassing with hindsight and some you're pleased with. This is one of the ones I'm pleased with:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/10/10/antifrank-says-corbyns-strategy-is-we-only-have-to-be-lucky-once/
    :) - and this ain't aging too badly either: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/09/08/should-labour-move-swiftly-to-depose-corbyn/

    Do you want to set up a consultancy?
    Can I join your consultancy too? I think piece stands up well. Ahem.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/08/23/corbyns-path-to-number-10/
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    If your butchers apron has blood on it you should report him to the authorities - is this another standard that has slipped under Holyrood rule (apologies if you live in Bath).

    - my butcher wears a spotless apron in navy and white - just like the Scotland flag.

    I never mentioned blood, you appear to be associating the union flag with being a blood soiled rag. Interesting.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    If your butchers apron has blood on it you should report him to the authorities - is this another standard that has slipped under Holyrood rule (apologies if you live in Bath).

    - my butcher wears a spotless apron in navy and white - just like the Scotland flag.

    I never mentioned blood, you appear to be associating the union flag with being a blood soiled rag. Interesting.
    It's all the blood we sweated whilst sorting out Scotland's problems.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    Roger said:

    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them

    Poor old Germany, it seems like only months ago that they were brothers in Anglo Saxon rectitude & responsibility. The wee chauvins are very fickle.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Divvie, when the facts change, people change their minds.

    Merkel's migration madness has gone down as well as predicted immediately by most people. It was insane from the first moment she uttered it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    HYUFD said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Polls show the present flag will win
    I hope so. New Zealand was born and came of age under it and, of course, many fought and died under it.

    There's no reason why other unofficial flags can't also supplement it. The silver fern a bit like the three lions can also represent England.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited 2015 20

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    Good piece. And I don't think it's at odds.

    I suspect Corbyn will eventually fall, his supporters will go bananas and blame everybody but the crass unpopularity of their agenda. They'll particularly blame the usual targets (the right wing of the Labour party and the media) and the struggle will continue. This time from their traditional position of nowhere-near-power, where difficult decisions never need to be made and fantasy is taken seriously.

    If Labour is to become strong again quickly it needs a centrist, inspirational leader who speaks to blue-collar, Scotland and the middle classes, like Blair did. In the absence of a candidate of that ilk I'd go with Cooper, but as we saw via the derision meted out in response to me the other day, she is no Blair.... it's difficult for Labour right now.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Has there ever been a political party in the history of the UK that has been in such a mess? Even under IDS the Tories were not as hopeless.

    Under IDS Labour now actually had a slightly larger lead over the Tories than the Tories do over Labour at this stage. Michael Foot and William Hague also polled less than Corbyn is polling now
    It's not always about polling
    To an extent it is as that is what determines a party's performance. Labour are roughly where the Tories were under IDS, Labour under Foot and the Tories under Hague were in a worse state in opposition
    The original comment was "mess" which is to do with institutional turmoil, not polling performance
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Very sound piece from Maajid Nawaz:

    We should be able to distinguish Islamist extremism from Islam by clarifying that Islam is simply a religion and that Islamism is a theocratic desire to impose a version of that religion over society. And once we do that, we are then able to clearly identify the insurgent ideology that we must get understand, isolate, undermine, refute, and provide alternatives to. It is precisely this distinction that I have spent the last few years advising Britain’s Prime Minister Cameron on, and I would like to think that is why Cameron corrected Obama on this very issue at the United Nations.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/19/isis-is-just-one-of-a-full-blown-global-jihadist-insurgency.html
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,831

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    That, or a deliberately leaked plan, to try to encourage more people to join it. I agree with you that its chances of success look slim.

    The Next Labour Leader may well be of a party of 50 MPs.
    It's the "After that, who knows?" bit that should worry Labour MPs and may cause them to stay the knife. Plenty of PBers have predicted that a new leadership election will just result in a younger, hard-left MP as leader.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Fenster said:

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    Good piece. And I don't think it's at odds.

    I suspect Corbyn will eventually fall, his supporters will go bananas and blame everybody but the crass unpopularity of their agenda. They'll particularly blame the usual targets (the right wing of the Labour party and the media) and the struggle will continue. This time from their traditional position of nowhere-near-power, where difficult decisions never need to be made and fantasy is taken seriously.

    If Labour is to become strong again quickly it needs a centrist, inspirational leader who speaks to blue-collar, Scotland and the middle classes, like Blair did. In the absence of a candidate of that ilk I'd go with Cooper, but as we saw via the derision meted out in response to me the other day, she is no Blair.... it's difficult for Labour right now.
    The mechanism for taking out Jeremy Corbyn is the real problem for those plotting against him. If he's determined to stay, he's going to be very hard indeed to oust for so long as he has the support of the party membership. And there he might well be strengthening rather than losing support:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/11/labours-membership-moving-further-leftwards
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    Nah, slaves had the hope of manumission.

    Serfdom is more appropriate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    edited 2015 20

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    That, or a deliberately leaked plan, to try to encourage more people to join it. I agree with you that its chances of success look slim.

    The Next Labour Leader may well be of a party of 50 MPs.
    When you write articles, some look embarrassing with hindsight and some you're pleased with. This is one of the ones I'm pleased with:

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/10/10/antifrank-says-corbyns-strategy-is-we-only-have-to-be-lucky-once/
    That piece, and several others, are the reason you were right to start penning your real name to them, rather than some obscure moniker. This is one of a string of analytical pieces that currently shames many of the broadsheets. If they were smart, they would be signing up yourself and several others on here. But their loss is our gain.

    Cyclefree is another who has a succinct point of view, whose take on moral dilemmas in particular is worth digesting every time. Sharp legal minds, again.

    It kinda goes without saying that people backing up their opinions with their money does rather require either deep pockets - or the need to be at the forefront of political prediction. But this site is so often so far ahead of the commentariat in picking future trends that anyone interested in politics should consider pb.com their first port of call....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    Since you're the expert, is VAT charged on aprons ?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    On the NZ flag issue, my radical streak applauds John Key - and like Dair, I prefer the Black/Blue fern design, backable at 5/4: http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/new-zealand-politics

    I would argue Canada is the exemplar for a positive flag change, but that was stitched up by a parliamentary committee. Like in NZ, they would probably have lost a referendum because most people aren't that bothered about branding and don't like change.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    Well, better than discussing Nicola's potential U-Turn on Syria, from

    Sturgeon said that UK airstrikes would “simply add to already unimaginable human suffering”, and that “the SNP will oppose UK airstrikes on Syria”. No ifs or buts.

    To 'prepared to listen'.....

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/paris-attacks-game-changer-scotland-snp-defence-policy

    Then of course, there's the $20/oil story.......

    Shhh, we don't talk about SNP U-turns...

    @AlanRoden: Exclusive: SNP in "cash for votes" scandal after taking £10k from anti fox-hunting lobby group. https://t.co/NP1Y7ejO77
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Wow! I missed this last night. Glorious invective from @afneil on his finest form ever. https://t.co/yExMyY9Y3C

    That’s pretty awesome by Andrew Neil. It needed to be said - and repeated often.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I hated that. Just not my sense of humour. A poor man's Ben Elton.

    Wow! I missed this last night. Glorious invective from @afneil on his finest form ever. https://t.co/yExMyY9Y3C

    Yeah, but I watched it thinking it was a very pale imitation of the "gigantic fucking arseholes" rant from the Daily Show - even down to a list of great French achievements. Without the humour of the croquembouche.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glxh9ZgP7kc
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    MikeK said:

    JackW said:

    Tim_B said:
    I'll have you know the prime Scottish meat and two veg are never "worn under the kilt" but kept in excellent condition.

    :smile:

    Do you mean to say JackW that under your kilt it's all just MASH? ;)
    He may not have seen it for decades.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    Yes, as has often been said, the dirty little secret of the NHS is that it is cheap.

    DJL,

    Read the last paragraph again. Here is a helper:

    nuance
    [noo-ahns, nyoo-, noo-ahns, nyoo-; French ny-ahns]

    noun, plural nuances
    [noo-ahn-siz, nyoo-, noo-ahn-siz, nyoo-; French ny-ahns]
    1. a subtle difference or distinction in expression, meaning, response, etc.
    2. a very slight difference or variation in color or tone.
    [Src.: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nuance ]
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062


    Rather a sad commentary after Andrew Neil's list of French achievments. 'We've got the best flag"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them

    You could easily come up with a similar list for the UK - Hume, Smith, Hobbes, Burke, Kneller, Gainsborough, Reynolds, Lawrence, Pepys, Scott, D.H. Lawrence, Elliot, Purcell, Elgar, Brittan, Birtwhistle. That's just off the top of my head and deliberately excluding the Germans and Dutch - van Dyck, Handel, Holbein, etc - who built their careers in England. And the Anglo-Irish, like Swift or Edgeworth.

    Neither list gets us anywhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    I don't know how you find the energy to be so pesistently negative about every single aspect of an entire country (excepting those bits that, for the moment, are Scottish). Out of interest, is there anything at all about Britain, the UK, which you are at least generally satisfied with?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Roger, or, we're discussing the UK flag because the NZ flag came up.

    You silly sausage.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited 2015 20
    breaking: Islamists seize up to 170 Air France staff and members of French military at Mali hotel...

    People who can recite the Koran are freed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    Now that is quality trolling ;)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited 2015 20
    Scott_P said:


    Well, better than discussing Nicola's potential U-Turn on Syria, from

    Sturgeon said that UK airstrikes would “simply add to already unimaginable human suffering”, and that “the SNP will oppose UK airstrikes on Syria”. No ifs or buts.

    To 'prepared to listen'.....

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/paris-attacks-game-changer-scotland-snp-defence-policy

    Then of course, there's the $20/oil story.......

    Shhh, we don't talk about SNP U-turns...

    @AlanRoden: Exclusive: SNP in "cash for votes" scandal after taking £10k from anti fox-hunting lobby group. https://t.co/NP1Y7ejO77
    The key word being after.

    The donation was made after the vote.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Crosby, that's dreadful news.

    The Quran aspect is similar to what happened, I think, at the Kenyan shopping centre.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    On the NZ flag issue, my radical streak applauds John Key - and like Dair, I prefer the Black/Blue fern design, backable at 5/4: http://www.sportsbet.com.au/betting/politics/new-zealand-politics

    I would argue Canada is the exemplar for a positive flag change, but that was stitched up by a parliamentary committee. Like in NZ, they would probably have lost a referendum because most people aren't that bothered about branding and don't like change.

    The union flag is a great piece of design, but I do have to say I like the red blue fern one, its a good design too. The process to get it changed is still problematic if they against change, as they could have resolved that much sooner and cheaper than the process they have set up, but the shortlist they boiled it down to is respectable.

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them

    You could easily come up with a similar list for the UK - Hume, Smith, Hobbes, Burke, Kneller, Gainsborough, Reynolds, Lawrence, Pepys, Scott, D.H. Lawrence, Elliot, Purcell, Elgar, Brittan, Birtwhistle. That's just off the top of my head and deliberately excluding the Germans and Dutch - van Dyck, Handel, Holbein, etc - who built their careers in England. And the Anglo-Irish, like Swift or Edgeworth.

    Neither list gets us anywhere.
    Bjørge Lillelien is the man you want for that:


    "We are the best in the world! We are the best in the world! We have beaten England 2-1 in football!! It is completely unbelievable! We have beaten England! England, birthplace of giants. Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana--we have beaten them all. We have beaten them all.

    "Maggie Thatcher can you hear me? Maggie Thatcher, I have a message for you in the middle of the election campaign. I have a message for you: We have knocked England out of the football World Cup. Maggie Thatcher, as they say in your language in the boxing bars around Madison Square Garden in New York: Your boys took a hell of a beating! Your boys took a hell of a beating!"


    youtube.com/watch?v=PqZTP8-8wIs
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    I don't know how you find the energy to be so pesistently negative about every single aspect of an entire country (excepting those bits that, for the moment, are Scottish). Out of interest, is there anything at all about Britain, the UK, which you are at least generally satisfied with?
    Abolition of Slavery, to some degree the BBC, Team GB, universal Healthcare. That's probably it. Before Blair, I'd have included the Tax/Welfare balance but the Tories seem disinterested in correcting this.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Another day, another bunch of Islamist terrorists taking people hostage and killing yet more. We need to exterminate these vermin globally.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited 2015 20
    reports the gunmen arrived in a car bearing diplomatic plates.

    Wtf?

    Chinese nationals among the hostages.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    edited 2015 20
    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Britain is despised.
    You do talk complete rubbish:

    Across a whole range of topics, we find people around the world see Britain in a pretty positive light with, for instance, a majority seeing us as a country committed to culture and the arts (54%), with strong democratic values and institutions (56 per cent) and with a good standard of living (59 per cent). The power of the English language is a positive, and cultural activities have a beneficial impact on views of Britain.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2012/12/how-does-rest-world-view-britain

    Such a bitter, twisted, envious life must be very wearing......
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    They have rebooted the Muppets and it's now airing again on US TV.

    But much like Britain, it's not as good as it used to be and hasn't been worth the effort of keeping it going.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Dair, a majority of Scots disagree :)
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/12007113/Judge-in-Alistair-Carmichael-court-case-formerly-active-in-SNP.html
    One of the two judges presiding over a rare Election Court which will decide the fate of Alistair Carmichael, the former Scottish Secretary, was once an active member of the SNP, it has emerged.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Dair said:

    Abolition of Slavery, to some degree the BBC, Team GB, universal Healthcare. That's probably it. Before Blair, I'd have included the Tax/Welfare balance but the Tories seem disinterested in correcting this.

    No surprise that Dim-Dare believes in 'Universal Healthcare': Nanu Nanu. As dated and flawed as his "Magic-Mindy-twee" economic circus-of-clowns projections....

    .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToQ0n3itoII
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Roger said:



    Rather a sad commentary after Andrew Neil's list of French achievments. 'We've got the best flag"

    Rather a sad commentary you apparently failed to appreciate people can discuss more than one thing at a time, and a discussion on the NZ flag, which contains the UK flag, was also happening, and rather than accept that decided to make it a criticism of, I assume, UK chauvinism instead.

    I hated that. Just not my sense of humour. A poor man's Ben Elton.

    Wow! I missed this last night. Glorious invective from @afneil on his finest form ever. https://t.co/yExMyY9Y3C

    Yeah, but I watched it thinking it was a very pale imitation of the "gigantic fucking arseholes" rant from the Daily Show - even down to a list of great French achievements. Without the humour of the croquembouche.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glxh9ZgP7kc
    I like John Oliver's humour, and Ben Elton's (not that I've seen his recent stuff - I like his novels) and he has done some great indepth and hilarious pieces on some very serious issues, but any Tories should be warned that he gets reallllllly lazy whenever he brings up Cameron, he quite obviously despises the man and everything about him (a fair opinion to hold, but his presentation as objective goes entirely out the window), and knowing that his main audience knows nothing about the UK, there is a noticable lack of support for his more strident opinions when he tears into some UK matters, and he just goes the whole hog, ignoring anything that hinders his narrative like any partisan does.

    With regards the Canadian elections he resorted to lazily just saying Harper is an evil arsehole. Now, he might well have been an awful PM, I don't know, but compared to the level of criticism he generally tries for on the show (at times deliberately vulgar for comedic effect, but within the context of serious points and fair examination of the facts), it's lazy as hell.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BBC: French soldiers deployed to deal with Mali situation.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/liberaldemocrats/12007113/Judge-in-Alistair-Carmichael-court-case-formerly-active-in-SNP.html

    One of the two judges presiding over a rare Election Court which will decide the fate of Alistair Carmichael, the former Scottish Secretary, was once an active member of the SNP, it has emerged.
    Lord Matthews declared his links to the SNP, most of them in the 1990s, in advance of the court sitting and neither side objected.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Britain is despised.
    You do talk complete rubbish:

    Across a whole range of topics, we find people around the world see Britain in a pretty positive light with, for instance, a majority seeing us as a country committed to culture and the arts (54%), with strong democratic values and institutions (56 per cent) and with a good standard of living (59 per cent). The power of the English language is a positive, and cultural activities have a beneficial impact on views of Britain.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2012/12/how-does-rest-world-view-britain

    Such a bitter, twisted, envious life must be very wearing......
    There are more recent studies:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Dair said:

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    I don't know how you find the energy to be so pesistently negative about every single aspect of an entire country (excepting those bits that, for the moment, are Scottish). Out of interest, is there anything at all about Britain, the UK, which you are at least generally satisfied with?
    Abolition of Slavery, to some degree the BBC, Team GB, universal Healthcare. That's probably it. Before Blair, I'd have included the Tax/Welfare balance but the Tories seem disinterested in correcting this.
    Well that's something at least, perhaps there's hope for us.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfMrj74otA
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    Roger said:



    Rather a sad commentary after Andrew Neil's list of French achievments. 'We've got the best flag"

    We have better adverts than the French though...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RodCrosby said:

    reports the gunmen arrived in a car bearing diplomatic plates.

    Wtf?

    Chinese nationals among the hostages.

    I can't understand what Westerners are doing in Mali at the moment given its recent history.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. JS, it does seem ropey at best.

    That said, it may soon be easier to list countries that don't suffer terrorism or an insurgency than those that do.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,164
    AndyJS said:

    RodCrosby said:

    reports the gunmen arrived in a car bearing diplomatic plates.

    Wtf?

    Chinese nationals among the hostages.

    I can't understand what Westerners are doing in Mali at the moment given its recent history.
    Isn't it French flight and military officials? Probably the very few who are there.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Gaby Hinsliff draws interesting parallels between the Tory Party's 'Road Trip' problems and the Labour Party's leadership ones:

    And Labour’s current death struggle for control of the steering wheel – in which it barely seems to matter where the car’s going, so long as the other guy isn’t driving it – resembles nothing more than student politics for people old enough to know better.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/mark-clarke-conservative-youth-road-trip
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    There seems to be a football team in India called "Income Tax":

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/football/event?id=27604549
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.

    You don't get out much, do you Dair?

    http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21657655-oxbridge-one-direction-and-premier-league-bolster-britains-power-persuade-softly-does-it

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Some potentially very telling Labour spin on the Oldham by-election here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gwynne/oldham-by-election_b_8591286.html
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Some potentially very telling Labour spin on the Oldham by-election here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gwynne/oldham-by-election_b_8591286.html

    Silly spin from Labour, saying that any drop in the Tory share would be a setback.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfMrj74otA
    That was fantastic.

    I'd like to add Warburtons to my list of "what is acceptable about Britain" list.

    They really do make excellent sliced pan.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Warburton's adverts are fab. Loved the Stallone one too. I goggle at their budget here.

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfMrj74otA
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    AndyJS said:

    RodCrosby said:

    reports the gunmen arrived in a car bearing diplomatic plates.

    Wtf?

    Chinese nationals among the hostages.

    I can't understand what Westerners are doing in Mali at the moment given its recent history.
    The French were there as they just finished stabilising it and beating IS in Mali.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    Some potentially very telling Labour spin on the Oldham by-election here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gwynne/oldham-by-election_b_8591286.html

    Silly spin from Labour, saying that any drop in the Tory share would be a setback.
    A sufficiently large drop in the Tory share will indeed be a setback - for Labour.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited 2015 20

    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    Britain is despised.
    You do talk complete rubbish:

    Across a whole range of topics, we find people around the world see Britain in a pretty positive light with, for instance, a majority seeing us as a country committed to culture and the arts (54%), with strong democratic values and institutions (56 per cent) and with a good standard of living (59 per cent). The power of the English language is a positive, and cultural activities have a beneficial impact on views of Britain.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2012/12/how-does-rest-world-view-britain

    Such a bitter, twisted, envious life must be very wearing......
    There are more recent studies:

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/
    Thank you - so overall the 'Despised' United Kingdom is ranked...number 1.....

    The UK has topped our Soft Power 30, much to the surprise of most British people no doubt. The result belies recent accusations that British influence is in decline. Vladimir Putin mocked Britain as a 'small island no one listens to'. This is hard to reconcile with the UK's position in the G7, UN Security Council, NATO, the European Union, and at the epicentre of the Commonwealth. British soft power is often felt in more subtle ways, whether through the Beatles, Harry Potter, Shakespeare, David Beckham, the Royal Family, or the English Premier League. Moreover, the success of the 2012 Olympics was a coup for a country struggling to rediscover its confidence in the wake of two recent wars and a major recession. By many measures, London has overtaken New York as the premier global city. According to Government figures, the UK attracts more in Foreign Direct Investment than Germany, France or Spain.

    http://softpower30.portland-communications.com/ranking
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,958

    Fenster said:

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    Good piece. And I don't think it's at odds.

    I suspect Corbyn will eventually fall, his supporters will go bananas and blame everybody but the crass unpopularity of their agenda. They'll particularly blame the usual targets (the right wing of the Labour party and the media) and the struggle will continue. This time from their traditional position of nowhere-near-power, where difficult decisions never need to be made and fantasy is taken seriously.

    If Labour is to become strong again quickly it needs a centrist, inspirational leader who speaks to blue-collar, Scotland and the middle classes, like Blair did. In the absence of a candidate of that ilk I'd go with Cooper, but as we saw via the derision meted out in response to me the other day, she is no Blair.... it's difficult for Labour right now.
    The mechanism for taking out Jeremy Corbyn is the real problem for those plotting against him. If he's determined to stay, he's going to be very hard indeed to oust for so long as he has the support of the party membership. And there he might well be strengthening rather than losing support:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/11/labours-membership-moving-further-leftwards
    Centrist Labour MPs have a problem - does that understate it nicely enough?
    If they stay put the party moves further away from them and sooner or later they get deselected. If they break away they need to do so in a bigger way than the SDP did and they will most likely not have their constituencies backing them.
    Probably their best moves are:
    a. Retire at the next election
    b. Defect to a party that is closest to their views (LD or Tory)
    c. Leave and fight as an Independent Labour and probably go down in flames (Dick Taverne was an exception).
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited 2015 20
    Wierd messages sent out by "Al-Beeb":
    Radisson hotel in Bamako targeted
    Posted at 08:49....

    Wise words

    Today's African proverb: "You do not ask the frog to give you a chair when you can see that the frog is squatting." Sent by George Grandy, Tema, Ghana, and Forster Addo, New York, US.
    [Src.: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-africa-34815762 ]
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Warburton's adverts are fab. Loved the Stallone one too. I goggle at their budget here.

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfMrj74otA
    Well they can probably afford the budget.

    Discovering Warburtons bread was a genuinely life changing experience (I mean that sincerely). I don';t understand how they can make Chorleywood bread that is both moist and tastes like actual bread while the other manufacturers are completely incapable of turning out anything that doesn't approach dry cardboard.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    @johnmcdonnellMP: We need a new economy. It's socialism, but socialism with an iPad https://t.co/0ghDhZxUNk #neweconomy https://t.co/mFdJGreDkZ
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842

    Some potentially very telling Labour spin on the Oldham by-election here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gwynne/oldham-by-election_b_8591286.html

    That is just embarrassing.

    There are two parties on trial in Oldham: Labour and UKIP. None of the others matter. Erstwhile Labour supporters across the country will be hoping for a UKIP win and I suspect that many Labour voters in Oldham will be voting for UKIP in a couple of weeks. Relentless and humiliating defeat at the polls is the best way to ensure that Corbyn Labour is destroyed sooner rather than later.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited 2015 20
    Sky: Malian security services "storm" hotel...
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    @johnmcdonnellMP: We need a new economy. It's socialism, but socialism with an iPad https://t.co/0ghDhZxUNk #neweconomy https://t.co/mFdJGreDkZ

    They aren't trying to win power, they're trying to win a BAFTA comedy award.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them

    You could easily come up with a similar list for the UK - Hume, Smith, Hobbes, Burke, Kneller, Gainsborough, Reynolds, Lawrence, Pepys, Scott, D.H. Lawrence, Elliot, Purcell, Elgar, Brittan, Birtwhistle. That's just off the top of my head and deliberately excluding the Germans and Dutch - van Dyck, Handel, Holbein, etc - who built their careers in England. And the Anglo-Irish, like Swift or Edgeworth.

    Neither list gets us anywhere.
    And a pretty impressive and modern 20th century list too...

    Orwell, Forster, Woolf, Greene, Tolkien, Douglas Adams, Bertrand Russell, Dawkins, The Beatles, The Stones, The Kinks, Radiohead, Queen, Churchill, Lloyd George, Atlee, Thatcher, Blair, Monty Python, the Attenboroughs, Sir Alex Ferguson, Fred Perry, Fred Trueman, Nick Faldo, the English RWC winning side, Anthony Hopkins, Olivier, Guinness, Mike Smithson.....

    I don't even know many scientists or diplomats or great business people - the list must be endless. But all of the straddled the world in one way or another.

    I chucked a Scot or two in there for Dair :)
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Fenster said:

    I chucked a Scot or two in there for Dair :)

    I noticed that you missed-out an advertising self-fellator: Wodger. Probably best....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited 2015 20
    SO

    "Erstwhile Labour supporters across the country will be hoping for a UKIP win ......"

    None that I can think of. If your personal dislike for Corbyn is worth giving momentum to the fascists particuarly in a Northern immigrant seat like Oldham then your self designation as someone of the centre left needs re-calibrating
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    Roger said:

    SO

    "Erstwhile Labour supporters across the country will be hoping for a UKIP win ......"

    None that I can think of. If your personal dislike for Corbyn is worth giving momentum to the fascists particuarly in a Northern immigrant seat like Oldham then your self designation as someone of the centre left needs re-calibrating

    If you want a Labour government any time soon Roger you should want UKIP to win. And you should want Labour to be humiliated in all real votes next year too. Corbyn is a free ticket to power for the Tories. It has nothing to do with personal dislike. I don't know Jezza. I just know that under him Labour is unelectable. The party membership needs to get to that point too. And the only way for that to happen is relentless defeat.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Dair said:

    Few flags top the Union Jack as a style icon. Personally, I think Brazil's is awful.

    kle4 said:

    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    Bit early to be so obvious with the trolling isn't it?

    Still, if that's the way. Ahem - I think Scottish people should be slaves.

    There, that should give you something to get pretend angry at.
    None. It has the global recognition of the 'Stars and Stripes' without the unpopular connotations that go with American power.

    Only to Irish Republicans and embittered Scottish Nationalists is it the 'Butchers Apron' - if it was, why would it be used in the State Flag of Hawaii, or form the basis for the Ikurriña, or appear in the coat of arms of Coquimbo in Chile, let alone earlier versions in the flags of various US cities from Baton Rouge to New England counties?

    Its an icon - and if Scotland does separate, it won't change.....
    Such a rose tinted, patriarchal view. Quite what one would expect from Loyalists.

    The Butcher's Apron is a despised symbol of oppression throughout Africa and Asia, it may be iconic but only as an icon of colonialism and pillage.

    There is a reason why British firms find it so hard to crack India and China. Britain is despised.
    Posts like this explain why I simply ignore you on this blog.

    You are fanatic and, like every fanatic, harbour a secret doubt which is why you resort to broadcasting such ridiculous hyperbole like this.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Roger said:

    SO

    "Erstwhile Labour supporters across the country will be hoping for a UKIP win ......"

    None that I can think of. If your personal dislike for Corbyn is worth giving momentum to the fascists particuarly in a Northern immigrant seat like Oldham then your self designation as someone of the centre left needs re-calibrating

    If you want a Labour government any time soon Roger you should want UKIP to win. And you should want Labour to be humiliated in all real votes next year too. Corbyn is a free ticket to power for the Tories. It has nothing to do with personal dislike. I don't know Jezza. I just know that under him Labour is unelectable. The party membership needs to get to that point too. And the only way for that to happen is relentless defeat.

    I agree with you entirely. Labour needs someone to grab it by the throat and shake it rigorously, and to do it quickly. The party is completely unelectable right now and that's no good.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,245
    edited 2015 20
    Fenster said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting how France is being lauded as the cultural centre of the world. The Andrew Neil rant from yesterday is just the latest in an exaltation of all things French. Well deserved of course but I suspect something of a shock to many in the UK whose chauvinism often gets the better of them

    You could easily come up with a similar list for the UK - Hume, Smith, Hobbes, Burke, Kneller, Gainsborough, Reynolds, Lawrence, Pepys, Scott, D.H. Lawrence, Elliot, Purcell, Elgar, Brittan, Birtwhistle. That's just off the top of my head and deliberately excluding the Germans and Dutch - van Dyck, Handel, Holbein, etc - who built their careers in England. And the Anglo-Irish, like Swift or Edgeworth.

    Neither list gets us anywhere.
    And a pretty impressive and modern 20th century list too...

    Orwell, Forster, Woolf, Greene, Tolkien, Douglas Adams, Bertrand Russell, Dawkins, The Beatles, The Stones, The Kinks, Radiohead, Queen, Churchill, Lloyd George, Atlee, Thatcher, Blair, Monty Python, the Attenboroughs, Sir Alex Ferguson, Fred Perry, Fred Trueman, Nick Faldo, the English RWC winning side, Anthony Hopkins, Olivier, Guinness, Mike Smithson.....

    I don't even know many scientists or diplomats or great business people - the list must be endless. But all of the straddled the world in one way or another.

    I chucked a Scot or two in there for Dair :)
    Then there are the TV exports: Peppa Pig alone has earnt more than a billion dollars worldwide. Downton Abbey, Top Gear, even f'ing 'Come Dine with me' are all exported to well over a hundred countries.

    BTW, I don't know if I'm the only one, but whenever I have to watch the execrable 'Tweenies', I imagine a mash-up with 'The Inbetweeners' called 'The Inbetweenies'. Where Jake and Milo try to pull birds at a caravan park in Clacton, whilst Fizz and Bella end up getting legless and puking in the school's cafeteria in front of Max.

    It's about the only thing that makes the program bearable. Yet the little 'un loves it.

    As for science: don't forget ARM has taken over the world. ;)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,877
    Dair said:

    Meanwhile, New Zealand has a flag vote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34876354

    Seems odd to me.

    The black and blue one with the fern and southern cross seems like a great choice. I do hope it wins this round as I think it would beat the current flag.

    The Butchers Apron needs consigned to the dustbin of history.
    You embarrass yourself with posts like that.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    You could do long lists of greats for a pile of European countries. Europe is kind of neat.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    MM

    "We have better adverts than the French though..."

    The Brits do humour. The french do nudity. What's not to like?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Dair said:

    Warburton's adverts are fab. Loved the Stallone one too. I goggle at their budget here.

    Mr. Dair, you are a grumpy turnip :p

    You are Waldorf, and I claim my free ticket to the Muppets Show.

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Crosby, if true, that seems very peculiar.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLfMrj74otA
    Well they can probably afford the budget.

    Discovering Warburtons bread was a genuinely life changing experience (I mean that sincerely). I don';t understand how they can make Chorleywood bread that is both moist and tastes like actual bread while the other manufacturers are completely incapable of turning out anything that doesn't approach dry cardboard.
    l wouldn't be so effusive, but I share your love of Warburtons bread. So that's TV shows and bread we can agree on, broadly.

    Good day to all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    Fenster said:

    Damian McBride on what Jeremy Corbyn is doing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/marxist-corbyn-revolution-ken-livingstone-labour

    His penultimate paragraph is entirely at odds with the rest of his article. It looks like wishful thinking to me.

    Good piece. And I don't think it's at odds.

    I suspect Corbyn will eventually fall, his supporters will go bananas and blame everybody but the crass unpopularity of their agenda. They'll particularly blame the usual targets (the right wing of the Labour party and the media) and the struggle will continue. This time from their traditional position of nowhere-near-power, where difficult decisions never need to be made and fantasy is taken seriously.

    If Labour is to become strong again quickly it needs a centrist, inspirational leader who speaks to blue-collar, Scotland and the middle classes, like Blair did. In the absence of a candidate of that ilk I'd go with Cooper, but as we saw via the derision meted out in response to me the other day, she is no Blair.... it's difficult for Labour right now.
    The mechanism for taking out Jeremy Corbyn is the real problem for those plotting against him. If he's determined to stay, he's going to be very hard indeed to oust for so long as he has the support of the party membership. And there he might well be strengthening rather than losing support:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/11/labours-membership-moving-further-leftwards
    It's FPTP that will save Corbyn's Labour. It's difficult to know what more they could do to put off their non-fanatic base (I suppose they could write a personal letter to every one of their voters who's not a self-declared Corbynite calling them a c*nt) but even then they'd probably struggle not to score above 180-190 seats.

    If we had PR, the solution for Labour moderates would be simple: form a new party with new donors and take the sensible left voters with the, without fear of losing all their seats in GE2020.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    Some potentially very telling Labour spin on the Oldham by-election here: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrew-gwynne/oldham-by-election_b_8591286.html

    Desperate stuff from Labour. I'm amazed that any serious new outlet would publish an advertorial like that. Oh wait, it's the Huffington post, no change there then.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Roger said:

    MM

    "We have better adverts than the French though..."

    The Brits do humour. The french do nudity. What's not to like?

    It's definitely better that way round.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Charles

    "You could easily come up with a similar list for the UK - Hume, Smith, Hobbes, Burke, Kneller, Gainsborough, Reynolds, Lawrence, Pepys, Scott, D.H. Lawrence, Elliot, Purcell, Elgar, Brittan, Birtwhistle. That's just off the top of my head and deliberately excluding the Germans and Dutch - van Dyck, Handel, Holbein, etc - who built their careers in England. And the Anglo-Irish, like Swift or Edgeworth."

    If it had happened in Switzerland it would have short eulogy
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Lucy Worsley
    Delighted to learn that you can buy a book of paper dolls of the mistresses of Louis IX. Clothes on or clothes off. https://t.co/CETSeVmIDK

    Roger said:

    MM

    "We have better adverts than the French though..."

    The Brits do humour. The french do nudity. What's not to like?

    It's definitely better that way round.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Off the radar, the government is starting to run into problems.

    More dreadful deficit numbers for Continuity Osbrowne today despite record tax receipts and decent growth.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    edited 2015 20
    RodCrosby said:

    breaking: Islamists seize up to 170 Air France staff and members of French military at Mali hotel...

    People who can recite the Koran are freed.

    I got into argument with a friend of mine on Facebook last night and this morning who denied any link between Islam and ISIS and felt the word Islamist was inflammatory.

    When I politely pointed out there was a link, and we mustn't deny it, he said: "You are just wrong. Plain and simple." and made the usual points about it being linked to racism and intolerance, which was then 'liked' by his adoring crowd of following Guardianistas.

    Why do I bother? What on earth is wrong with the British Left?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,023

    Fenster said:



    Good piece. And I don't think it's at odds.

    I suspect Corbyn will eventually fall, his supporters will go bananas and blame everybody but the crass unpopularity of their agenda. They'll particularly blame the usual targets (the right wing of the Labour party and the media) and the struggle will continue. This time from their traditional position of nowhere-near-power, where difficult decisions never need to be made and fantasy is taken seriously.

    If Labour is to become strong again quickly it needs a centrist, inspirational leader who speaks to blue-collar, Scotland and the middle classes, like Blair did. In the absence of a candidate of that ilk I'd go with Cooper, but as we saw via the derision meted out in response to me the other day, she is no Blair.... it's difficult for Labour right now.

    The mechanism for taking out Jeremy Corbyn is the real problem for those plotting against him. If he's determined to stay, he's going to be very hard indeed to oust for so long as he has the support of the party membership. And there he might well be strengthening rather than losing support:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/11/labours-membership-moving-further-leftwards
    It's FPTP that will save Corbyn's Labour. It's difficult to know what more they could do to put off their non-fanatic base (I suppose they could write a personal letter to every one of their voters who's not a self-declared Corbynite calling them a c*nt) but even then they'd probably struggle not to score above 180-190 seats.

    If we had PR, the solution for Labour moderates would be simple: form a new party with new donors and take the sensible left voters with the, without fear of losing all their seats in GE2020.
    That might easily have been said for the Tories too. 1997 and 2001 both saw the Conservatives return sub-180.

    The fact that Oldham is not looking like a nailed-on hold - as in any normal political universe it would be - demonstrates that these 'safe' Labour seats are not as safe as is sometimes made out.

    Of course, you can argue that it's 'safe' for Labour voters to vote UKIP at a by-election when it won't affect the government and to an extent that's true. However, there is a point beyond which voters' traditional allegiances cannot be pushed and where they feel the risk the Tories pose is not sufficiently greater than the risk a Corbyn-led government poses to their values that it's no longer worth supporting Labour. This will be particularly true if they think the Tories are going to win anyway.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    Roger said:

    MM

    "We have better adverts than the French though..."

    The Brits do humour. The french do nudity. What's not to like?

    When your nudity causes the humour?
This discussion has been closed.