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  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    surbiton said:

    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    The Tories borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 years ?
    Nonsense, your lot created the deficit. The Tories are cutting the deficit you can't oppose both cutting the deficit and it not being eliminated simultaneously and pretend to be serious.
    They're not serious.

    They elected Corbyn.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    Who is hopisen ?
    You are joking right?

    Sensible, grounded Labour blogger - a dying breed it seems.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Here are the five stages of Corbynista denial.

    1) Jeremy or John has been taken out of context by the disgraceful Tory lickspittle mainstream media and their running dog lackeys, otherwise known as the voters.

    2) Jeremy did not say what you saw him say on television.

    3) The allegation is not ‎even true! There is nothing to apologise for.

    4) ‎Ok, it is true.

    5) Everyone involved has apologised. No-one out there cares about this stuff. Next…
    http://www.capx.co/the-five-stagebynista-denial/
  • Eh_ehm_a_ehEh_ehm_a_eh Posts: 552
    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Keep a whistle handy by the phone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Spending on health is up in real terms as is International Aid. But there is no doubt that spending was out of control and needed to be curtailed.
    Just imagine if we cut the hobby horses of both the left and the right !
    Yes. Better off pensioners have not contributed nearly enough to austerity and should be paying a lot more. Protecting and enhancing their incomes through the triple lock when people in work were suffering real cuts in wages year after year was pure politics and hard to defend.

    And as for that right to lend money to the government at artificially high rates just before the election. A competent opposition might have made something of that ridiculous bribe.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    One thing about pensions, the annuities are so awful because the pension companies have to invest in derisory Gov't bonds occasionally paying negative interest !

    *Ponders what would happen if this requirement was removed*
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    edited 2015 19

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
    Sorry, These calls were originally going to my elderly parents. How would you feel if yours were being bothered. Happy PBtory getting your premiums from your BT shares?
    Errr I have no shares in BT, but I do "invest" in BT call guardian 8500. I get zero calls from those I do not want to speak to as I can choose to ignore them, you should try it.
    Er! So you pay BT to block calls that BT should be blocking anyway. Forgive me, but who is the stupid one here? Clue, it ain't me!

    Edited for spelling
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081

    Nonsense, your lot created the deficit. The Tories are cutting the deficit you can't oppose both cutting the deficit and it not being eliminated simultaneously and pretend to be serious.

    They are arsonists who started a huge fire, and then complain that the fire brigade is taking a long time to put it out.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    surbiton said:

    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    The Tories borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 years ?
    Nonsense, your lot created the deficit. The Tories are cutting the deficit you can't oppose both cutting the deficit and it not being eliminated simultaneously and pretend to be serious.
    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Pensions in 2010 was 81bn. In 2015 it is 107bn that is an increase of 26bn. The other component is sickness and disability, this has increased by 10bn.
    The govt has been controlling its spending where it can exert control.
    Pensions are paid out of the contributions that are paid in. This sum is called the national insurance fund. It is in surplus, it has to be by law.
    This surplus is loaned to the govt each year by the debt management office. So how can pensions be responsible for any deficit??? The contributions paid in are actually funding the deficit.
    Under this chancellor the state retirement age has been steadily increasing for men and women.
    Soon it will be 67. That's between 2 and 7 years of additional contributions and reduced payments back.
    Yet some numpties pretend that this is sucking up to pensioners??
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about pensions, the annuities are so awful because the pension companies have to invest in derisory Gov't bonds occasionally paying negative interest !

    *Ponders what would happen if this requirement was removed*

    If that was removed then government bonds rates might skyrocket creating a sovereign debt crisis, or forcing the BoE to fully fund government operations like McDonnell and Corbyn want.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about pensions, the annuities are so awful because the pension companies have to invest in derisory Gov't bonds occasionally paying negative interest !

    *Ponders what would happen if this requirement was removed*

    It is inevitable. Robert pointed out a couple of weeks ago that even Spain was now charging people money for keeping their savings safe for 5 years. UK rates are record lows but might well fall a lot more yet. If bond rates go negative then pension deficits on final salary schemes go almost infinite. The money still being paid into closed schemes is a huge drain on investment and growth. Changing to corporate bonds would solve the deficit problems almost overnight. But governments, especially governments with large deficits, like to be able to borrow cheap.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    edited 2015 19
    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    While on my train journey today through the English countryside I was musing on this. It was said that the suicide Bomber in the apartment was female and the first known on the continent of Europe. As she apparently " martyred " herself what does she get. Not sure 72 virgins is going to cut it really?
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Spending on health is up in real terms as is International Aid. But there is no doubt that spending was out of control and needed to be curtailed.
    The big thing is pensions though, Osborne's pensions splurge accounts for half off all increased spending. And it's not funded from National Insurance revenue, that has only risen by 10 billion since 2010, only a quarter of the increase in pensions.

    The country is going to face a pensions crisis in a few years.
    Ironic a leftie whimpering about pensions in crisis when gordon Brown destroyed one of the best if not the best pension systems in the world.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.


    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
    Sorry, These calls were originally going to my elderly parents. How would you feel if yours were being bothered. Happy PBtory getting your premiums from your BT shares?
    Errr I have no shares in BT, but I do "invest" in BT call guardian 8500. I get zero calls from those I do not want to speak to as I can choose to ignore them, you should try it.
    Er! So you pay BT to block calls that BT should be blocking anyway. Forgive me, but who is the stupid one here? Clue, it ain't me!

    Edited for spelling
    What is illegal that BT should be blocking.
    I get as annoyed as anybody about cold calls and auto calls, but there is no way we get anything like as many as is being suggested is the norm by some people.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Brilliant cartoon about Jezza's labour

    http://hurryupharry.org/2015/11/18/goretzkis-latest/

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Pensions in 2010 was 81bn. In 2015 it is 107bn that is an increase of 26bn. The other component is sickness and disability, this has increased by 10bn.
    The govt has been controlling its spending where it can exert control.
    Pensions are paid out of the contributions that are paid in. This sum is called the national insurance fund. It is in surplus, it has to be by law.
    This surplus is loaned to the govt each year by the debt management office. So how can pensions be responsible for any deficit??? The contributions paid in are actually funding the deficit.
    Under this chancellor the state retirement age has been steadily increasing for men and women.
    Soon it will be 67. That's between 2 and 7 years of additional contributions and reduced payments back.
    Yet some numpties pretend that this is sucking up to pensioners??
    That surplus is gone.
    2010
    Old age Pensions: 84 billion
    N.I.: 96.6 billion

    2015:
    Old age Pensions: 107.6 billion
    N.I. : 107.8 billion.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    DavidL said:

    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.

    I agree, and the Eurozone crisis tends to get ignored by Osborne's critics when they complain about him missing his initial targets, as though it was all plain sailing from 2010 onwards.

    Anyway he's just wrong about no reduction since 2012.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.


    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.
    The structural deficit showed itself to be bigger than thought and so rather than cutting more to meet an arbitrary target, he extended it by two years. This seems to me to have been very sensible and pragmatic as opposed to following some dogma.
    PS one of the posts from David Smiths blogs (Economic editor of the Sunday Times) covers this extensively.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing about pensions, the annuities are so awful because the pension companies have to invest in derisory Gov't bonds occasionally paying negative interest !

    *Ponders what would happen if this requirement was removed*

    Agreed, but what you have to also consider is those receiving pensions already at high annuity rates. Especially those with a GAR equivalent of guaranteed getting the funds paid in with in 10 years even with Spouses, etc.etc.. Also all those PPP's in receipt of payment prior to around 2005 (from memory).

    These payments out, with the bonds beginning to expire is going to cause trouble to newer annuity takers. Then also with the option to take your money out and run and buy a yacht or fast car, means that there will be less and less in the pot.

    Someone is going to end up paying.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 19
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Pensions in 2010 was 81bn. In 2015 it is 107bn that is an increase of 26bn. The other component is sickness and disability, this has increased by 10bn.
    The govt has been controlling its spending where it can exert control.
    Pensions are paid out of the contributions that are paid in. This sum is called the national insurance fund. It is in surplus, it has to be by law.
    This surplus is loaned to the govt each year by the debt management office. So how can pensions be responsible for any deficit??? The contributions paid in are actually funding the deficit.
    Under this chancellor the state retirement age has been steadily increasing for men and women.
    Soon it will be 67. That's between 2 and 7 years of additional contributions and reduced payments back.
    Yet some numpties pretend that this is sucking up to pensioners??
    That surplus is gone.
    2010
    Old age Pensions: 84 billion
    N.I.: 96.6 billion

    2015:
    Old age Pensions: 107.6 billion
    N.I. : 107.8 billion.
    In effect that doesn't really mean anything. The government was just borrowing from itself, now it has to borrow more on the bond markets to make up the decrease in the surplus on the NI fund.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    You think only the rich pay 40% tax? - oh dear lord.

    Chris - meet reality, reality meet Chris.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Marf said:

    Great to be back! Thank you for the warm welcome.

    Thanks to you.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pretty decent Question Time panel tonight.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    What are the chances of Corbyn being leader in May 2020?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    AndyJS said:

    What are the chances of Corbyn being leader in May 2020?

    I took 9-2.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354

    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.


    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.
    The structural deficit showed itself to be bigger than thought and so rather than cutting more to meet an arbitrary target, he extended it by two years. This seems to me to have been very sensible and pragmatic as opposed to following some dogma.
    But the current deficit did remain within spitting distance of the same level for 3 fiscal years. That did nothing to reduce the structural deficit, it was an entirely sensible response to a far from benign economic environment. The idea of Osborne as some mad cutter obsessed with shrinking the State is a left wing fantasy that it suits him not to disprove. But it is also bollocks.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Scott_P said:

    Here are the five stages of Corbynista denial.

    1) Jeremy or John has been taken out of context by the disgraceful Tory lickspittle mainstream media and their running dog lackeys, otherwise known as the voters.

    2) Jeremy did not say what you saw him say on television.

    3) The allegation is not ‎even true! There is nothing to apologise for.

    4) ‎Ok, it is true.

    5) Everyone involved has apologised. No-one out there cares about this stuff. Next…
    http://www.capx.co/the-five-stagebynista-denial/

    They forgot one.......

    The photograph / taped recording / video clip showing him/ her holding / saying / proving evidence that him/ her has already denied is / was / will be clarified by Him/ her later in a statement backtracking / u- turning / spinning the point and blaming austerity / savage cuts and evil Tory press on a smear campaign of the dear leader.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    glw said:

    DavidL said:

    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.

    I agree, and the Eurozone crisis tends to get ignored by Osborne's critics when they complain about him missing his initial targets, as though it was all plain sailing from 2010 onwards.

    Anyway he's just wrong about no reduction since 2012.
    Yes but the reductions shown in some of those years came from the fact GDP was growing rather than the deficit was shrinking.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    Speedy said:


    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.

    A £2 billion rise in 2015, ignoring ALL GDP growth and real spending growth, is your argument? Really?

    I'd be rude to you, but honestly you're not even worth that.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    DavidL said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.


    That is indeed bollocks but Osborne did take a couple of years off deficit reduction in the middle of the last Parliament when he thought the economy was slowing too much on the back of the EZ crisis. It made the real difference between his policy and Balls a lot smaller than both of them tried to pretend.
    The structural deficit showed itself to be bigger than thought and so rather than cutting more to meet an arbitrary target, he extended it by two years. This seems to me to have been very sensible and pragmatic as opposed to following some dogma.
    PS one of the posts from David Smiths blogs (Economic editor of the Sunday Times) covers this extensively.
    That was of course the same structural deficit Balls denied existed and then denied he ever denied existed because it existed all the time as he originally said.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    14% oppose military action against ISIS and the BBC have managed to find them all and get them into a studio in central Londor for QT... Impressive
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:

    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Pensions in 2010 was 81bn. In 2015 it is 107bn that is an increase of 26bn. The other component is sickness and disability, this has increased by 10bn.
    The govt has been controlling its spending where it can exert control.
    Pensions are paid out of the contributions that are paid in. This sum is called the national insurance fund. It is in surplus, it has to be by law.
    This surplus is loaned to the govt each year by the debt management office. So how can pensions be responsible for any deficit??? The contributions paid in are actually funding the deficit.
    Under this chancellor the state retirement age has been steadily increasing for men and women.
    Soon it will be 67. That's between 2 and 7 years of additional contributions and reduced payments back.
    Yet some numpties pretend that this is sucking up to pensioners??
    That surplus is gone.
    2010
    Old age Pensions: 84 billion
    N.I.: 96.6 billion

    2015:
    Old age Pensions: 107.6 billion
    N.I. : 107.8 billion.
    In effect that doesn't really mean anything. The government was just borrowing from itself, now it has to borrow more on the bond markets to make up the decrease in the surplus on the NI fund.
    Precisely, the Osborne pensions splurge will force the government to borrow more, if that is not possible then there are 3 options: 1. Cut Pensions, 2. Increase N.I. rates, 3. BoE QE (the Corbyn option).

    And with that goodnight.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Danny565 said:

    Pretty decent Question Time panel tonight.

    Sod's Law. I've been watching Newsnight.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 19
    AndyJS said:
    I think its a good price.

    You're basically betting on the spinelessness and the arcane rules of the Labour party keeping him in place.

    He won't be next PM though !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Soubry excellent so far.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    Net borrowing according to ONS:

    2009/10 153.5
    2010/11 134.8
    2011/12 113.6
    2012/13 119.7
    2013/14 99.9
    2014/15 90.1 (from OBR)

    The 2012/13 blip was due to the royal mail pension liabilities being transferred to the public sector.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    He gives that impression, at least to me. It'd be nice to hear him say something good about Turkey. Since he does not, and repeatedly writes invective against the country, you can see why someone could say that he hates it.

    If not, then I apologise.

    I have not and would not say I hate Turkey. I think Erdogan is a rubbish person, probably as bad as Assad given the level of state sponsored terrorism he has approved. I think the Turkish people are easily led, but that is true of a lot of Middle Eastern and Asian countries. I have no special hatred of Turkey or its people though, many of whom are involved in the refugee relief effort and making a big difference to the displaced people. I do have a plain, normal hatred for the leadership which manipulates and whips up hatred for the PKK at the right time (look at the bombing campaign just before the second election). I loathe the way that they all have a case of collective amnesia when it the questions come as to how ISIS are funnelling their illicit oil through Turkish companies.

    Finally, I think you are far too easy on Erdogan who is no different to Assad. The difference between Syria and Turkey is the population, one has had a secular style democracy for almost 100 years and whose founder after the Ottoman empire imposed democracy on the nation, the other has had a secular dictatorship. In many ways if democracy had been imposed on Syria, we may not have these problems today. Part of why ISIS are successful is because Islamists can claim that the alawite leader is suppressing Sunni Muslims, it isn't true (or at least it wasn't until we encouraged a Sunni rebellion) and simply put the people of Syria wouldn't know what to do with democracy, it would become very much like Libya where people think the party they vote for should be in power and no one else's vote matters.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    Danny565 said:

    Pretty decent Question Time panel tonight.

    Lebedev completely busting preconceptions of what an oligarch should look like.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Moses_ said:

    While on my train journey today through the English countryside I was musing on this. It was said that the suicide Bomber in the apartment was female and the first known on the continent of Europe. As she apparently " martyred " herself what does she get. Not sure 72 virgins is going to cut it really?
    She might prefer women?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    Net borrowing according to ONS:

    2009/10 153.5
    2010/11 134.8
    2011/12 113.6
    2012/13 119.7
    2013/14 99.9
    2014/15 90.1 (from OBR)

    The 2012/13 blip was due to the royal mail pension liabilities being transferred to the public sector.
    So pretty consistent declines in the deficit that the previous arsonists set.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Moses_ said:

    While on my train journey today through the English countryside I was musing on this. It was said that the suicide Bomber in the apartment was female and the first known on the continent of Europe. As she apparently " martyred " herself what does she get. Not sure 72 virgins is going to cut it really?
    She might prefer women?
    Or wicker men?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:
    I think its a good price.

    You're basically betting on the spinelessness and the arcane rules of the Labour party keeping him in place.

    He won't be next PM though !
    Beginning to think that the PLP exodus to form a new Opposition might be on, eventually. Which would make antifrank's 50-1 on McDonnell look even more handy.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 19
    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    Net borrowing according to ONS:

    2009/10 153.5
    2010/11 134.8
    2011/12 113.6
    2012/13 119.7
    2013/14 99.9
    2014/15 90.1 (from OBR)

    The 2012/13 blip was due to the royal mail pension liabilities being transferred to the public sector.
    So pretty consistent declines in the deficit that the previous arsonists set.
    Yep. And the forecast from the OBR for 2015/16 is 69.5bn. The most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm is getting there!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,550
    Pulpstar said:

    Soubry excellent so far.

    Getting roasted on Saudi Arabia.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Con Gain - extraordinary swings:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 25s25 seconds ago
    Aylesford Green (Ashford) result:
    CON: 23.5% (-21.5)
    UKIP: 23.2% (+23.2)
    LAB: 22.6% (-32.4)
    AI: 19.6% (+19.6)
    LD: 9.0% (+9.0)
    GRN: 2.1%
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Danny565 said:

    Pretty decent Question Time panel tonight.

    Lebedev completely busting preconceptions of what an oligarch should look like.
    Not a bond villain though.
    He made a pretty poor taste half joke/ remark in defence of his father (ex KGB) I thought on the one show, not that I watch it you understand, the rest of the family do.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 19

    Con Gain - extraordinary swings:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 25s25 seconds ago
    Aylesford Green (Ashford) result:
    CON: 23.5% (-21.5)
    UKIP: 23.2% (+23.2)
    LAB: 22.6% (-32.4)
    AI: 19.6% (+19.6)
    LD: 9.0% (+9.0)
    GRN: 2.1%

    Snuck through the middle. Get in!!!!

    Edit - wow misread the plus minuses there!

    Edit 2 - no I didn't. Get in!!!
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    In votes (!)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
    Aylesford Green (Ashford) vote result:
    CON: 110
    UKIP: 109
    LAB: 106
    AI: 92
    LDEM: 42
    GRN: 10
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    Net borrowing according to ONS:

    2009/10 153.5
    2010/11 134.8
    2011/12 113.6
    2012/13 119.7
    2013/14 99.9
    2014/15 90.1 (from OBR)

    The 2012/13 blip was due to the royal mail pension liabilities being transferred to the public sector.
    That is one of the problems in this area. There are so many ways of presenting the figures and so many things that can distort them. Net borrowing isn't the best because of asset sales and the distortions caused by QE.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    £81bn, though that includes a very favourable Feb/Mar where a lot of spending was pushed into the following year. The current TTM figure is £73bn, Feb/Mar last year may be why the Chancellor misses the OBR target of £69bn.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 19
    Max Hastings is wrong, ISIS (And moreover the disgusting ideology) IS an existential threat.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    £81bn, though that includes a very favourable Feb/March where a lot of spending was pushed into the following year. The current TTM figure is £73bn.
    Not completely senile then. At least not yet. Not sure where Speedy got his figure.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052

    In votes (!)

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
    Aylesford Green (Ashford) vote result:
    CON: 110
    UKIP: 109
    LAB: 106
    AI: 92
    LDEM: 42
    GRN: 10

    What a turnout.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour collapses and UKIP gain letting Con through.

    Like a mini GE.

    Oldham in play for Kippers ?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Listening to the radio this morning, and he interviewer asked the military expert why Cameron was so keen on getting involved in Syria, just was told 2 words "Storm Shadow"

    Looked it up and this is what I found:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm

    Seems the RAF Typhoons and Tornado's can carry 2 at a time which makes them a good reason why France and the US want us involved. At £790,000 a shot, not inexpensive.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    The halved figure comes from being based on a %age of GDP.
    You can make of that what you will, but in their term of office the labour party made great play with that metric.
    The govts main policy is to eliminate the structural deficit and that can only be done by cutting its spending. That deficit represents spending the govt can never afford, never cover from revenue.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    glw said:

    Speedy said:

    The deficit has stopped falling since 2012.

    BOLLOCKS.

    Financial years, % GDP.
    2009-2010 10.8
    2010-2011 9.1
    2011-2012 7.7
    2012-2013 7.5
    2013-2014 5.9
    2014-2015 5.1

    Spending, Revenue, Deficit in billions of pounds:

    2010: 673, 532, 141
    2011: 714, 572, 142
    2012: 715, 593, 122
    2013: 733, 610, 123
    2014: 735, 636, 99
    2015: 748, 647, 101

    So we are in agreement, the deficit has stopped falling since the 2012-2013 fiscal year, the small GDP growth masks it a bit in percentage terms.
    Where are you getting those figures? My recollection is that the deficit in 2014 was just over £80bn. I remember in the election campaign the Tories claiming they had halved it from the figure they inherited.
    £81bn, though that includes a very favourable Feb/March where a lot of spending was pushed into the following year. The current TTM figure is £73bn.
    Not completely senile then. At least not yet. Not sure where Speedy got his figure.
    The data is available here:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/psa/public-sector-finances/september-2015/tsd-psf-september-2015.html

    On the right of the page in Excel form. It's a bit unwieldy though as the data goes as far back as the 60s.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    ISIS couldn't give a monkeys whether we take refugees or not methinks.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cripes: Andy Burnham says it may be time to think about scrapping Schengen.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    OchEye said:

    Listening to the radio this morning, and he interviewer asked the military expert why Cameron was so keen on getting involved in Syria, just was told 2 words "Storm Shadow"

    Looked it up and this is what I found:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm

    Seems the RAF Typhoons and Tornado's can carry 2 at a time which makes them a good reason why France and the US want us involved. At £790,000 a shot, not inexpensive.

    Seems a bit excessive. How many hardened bunkers are ISIS occupying?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    OchEye said:

    Listening to the radio this morning, and he interviewer asked the military expert why Cameron was so keen on getting involved in Syria, just was told 2 words "Storm Shadow"

    Looked it up and this is what I found:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm

    Seems the RAF Typhoons and Tornado's can carry 2 at a time which makes them a good reason why France and the US want us involved. At £790,000 a shot, not inexpensive.

    £790K to take out a 10 year old landrover with a machine gun on it. Hmmm...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Labour slips from first to third in Kent.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    Andy Burnham putting the boot into Schengen.

    This week.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    UKIP - how do you end up not defending a ward which you won with 808 people voting for you last time? Effing unprofessional.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited 2015 19
    AndyJS said:

    Cripes: Andy Burnham says it may be time to think about scrapping Schengen.

    Is that even a particularly "right-wing" position? I would've thought it was commonsense at this point; even if one were to believe we should be very generous in accepting refugees, there should surely be more frequent checks at borders, since Greece where many people are entering simply don't have the resources to screen people properly.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    JC going down brilliantly in Wales too. Just the 20% swing.

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
    Kidwelly (Carmarthenshire) result:
    LAB: 33.8% (-10.6)
    PC: 29.1% (+29.1)
    IND: 20.8% (+20.8)
    PF: 6.8% (-16.5)
    CON: 6.2% (+6.2)
    IND: 3.3%
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    watford30 said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
    And when was the last time you required the services of a social worker, used a library, got on a rural bus service, required the police to do more than give you a crime number...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    JC going down brilliantly in Wales too. Just the 20% swing.

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects
    Kidwelly (Carmarthenshire) result:
    LAB: 33.8% (-10.6)
    PC: 29.1% (+29.1)
    IND: 20.8% (+20.8)
    PF: 6.8% (-16.5)
    CON: 6.2% (+6.2)
    IND: 3.3%

    CON up infinite percent!!!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    TGOHF said:

    Labour collapses and UKIP gain letting Con through.

    Like a mini GE.

    Oldham in play for Kippers ?

    Oldham has been in play for the Kippers for ages.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    DavidL said:

    OchEye said:

    Listening to the radio this morning, and he interviewer asked the military expert why Cameron was so keen on getting involved in Syria, just was told 2 words "Storm Shadow"

    Looked it up and this is what I found:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm

    Seems the RAF Typhoons and Tornado's can carry 2 at a time which makes them a good reason why France and the US want us involved. At £790,000 a shot, not inexpensive.

    £790K to take out a 10 year old landrover with a machine gun on it. Hmmm...
    The French want us 'in' so we can use a load up, and order some more from MBDA.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    DavidL said:

    OchEye said:

    Listening to the radio this morning, and he interviewer asked the military expert why Cameron was so keen on getting involved in Syria, just was told 2 words "Storm Shadow"

    Looked it up and this is what I found:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm

    Seems the RAF Typhoons and Tornado's can carry 2 at a time which makes them a good reason why France and the US want us involved. At £790,000 a shot, not inexpensive.

    £790K to take out a 10 year old landrover with a machine gun on it. Hmmm...
    Quite, and the missiles have to be programmed before they leave the airfield, and cannot have the programme changed while attached or in flight. Good chance the landrover won't be around by the time the missile flies by.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Subway spokesman Jared pleads guilty to possession of child porn and crossing state lines to have sex with minors, and gets 15 years.

    He won't be holding his foot long anytime soon, but his fellow prisoners might.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    Chris_A said:

    watford30 said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
    And when was the last time you required the services of a social worker, used a library, got on a rural bus service, required the police to do more than give you a crime number...
    I'd say we're in a bit of a quandry in that I think people in general will react poorly to any attempt to raise taxes significantly (unless it's 'only the rich' but after years of trimming are getting to the point where they refuse to lower expectations of what the state should be delivering which is necessary in that situation. Seems like Labour should really be in a position to capitalise on that after 10 years of talk about austerity, but I'm not sure they will now (I thought they would have already, so having got that wrong I'm wary of predicting for 2020 ).

    Good night
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Tim_B said:

    Subway spokesman Jared pleads guilty to possession of child porn and crossing state lines to have sex with minors, and gets 15 years.

    He won't be holding his foot long anytime soon, but his fellow prisoners might.

    He gets a longer sentence than some killers in the UK.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited 2015 19
    Pension. There has been no pensions splurge. Year on year each years pensions are paid for by each years contributions. Pensions do not contribute to the deficit. Typically there is a surplus of about 2 billion.
    Certainly as of a report to parliament this June the fund had a working balance (as it is legally required to do) of some £23bn
    Future problems if that's the right word of more pensioners and living longer are what is behind the extension of the pension age.

    I grow tired of ignorant people belittling pensioners and misrepresenting where pensions come from.
    Pensions with a 23bn reserve and paid for out of current income cannot be adding to the deficit.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    George Galloway coming up on This Week.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    Chris_A said:

    watford30 said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
    used a library,
    I popped into my local library a few years ago. I presented my card which they had issued in 1976 and was told that it was no longer valid.


  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited 2015 19
    Decent hold for the LDs, figs to follow...

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 3m3 minutes ago
    Liberal Democrat HOLD South Smallburgh (Norfolk).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Chris_A said:

    watford30 said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
    used a library,
    I popped into my local library a few years ago. I presented my card which they had issued in 1976 and was told that it was no longer valid.


    That's disappointing. Longevity ought to be accorded the respect it deserves.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    Subway spokesman Jared pleads guilty to possession of child porn and crossing state lines to have sex with minors, and gets 15 years.

    He won't be holding his foot long anytime soon, but his fellow prisoners might.

    He gets a longer sentence than some killers in the UK.
    I'm not surprised - Subway meats etc are pre-cut in a central plant and shipped to the store, so when you say what you want they peel the tissue paper off and put the prepared lump on the bread. It's awful, just bad.

    I prefer Lenny's, where you say what you want, and they take a ham etc and put it through the slicer in front of you.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Lib Dems hold South Smallburgh , vote share up from 31% to 54%
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    The Brillopad's opening tirade...

    "IS = Islamist Scumbags!"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    Another superb performance by Corbyn Labour in a real election. Dare we hope for a repeat in Oldham? Only humiliating defeat piled on humiliating defeat can save Labour from itself.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Chris_A said:

    watford30 said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:

    Chris_A said:

    DavidL said:



    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.

    If you pay tax at 40% at all, let alone on a higher proportion of it then you are rich. End of story. You are in the top quintile in the country and any attempt to portray yourself as not rich is just a perversion of the English language.
    I have a good income but I have very modest amounts of capital. I came from a poor background and have chosen to spend a lot of my income on my kids education. My choice and I am not complaining, I was merely using my example of how people on good incomes are paying a lot more tax. And quite right too. The country is nearly bankrupt.
    And we should be paying a lot more. Taxes are too low and public services are the worse for it.
    Public services are fine.

    Taxes are too high. The only people who think otherwise, are those on the receiving end of the taxpayers largesse, such as whining doctors.

    If you want to make a voluntary donation to The Exchequer so that an NHS fat cat on £500K plus can have a few quid more towards their over generous pension pot, be my guest.
    used a library,
    I popped into my local library a few years ago. I presented my card which they had issued in 1976 and was told that it was no longer valid.


    Did they give you a new one? When I joined my library they gave me a laminated card and stub for my key ring. It 'expires' every 2 years, but that's just so they can check my address and any fees payable. I tend to check out books to my kindle these days so rarely visit.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Brilliant programme by Alexander Armstrong on BBC 4. About boys own stories.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Another superb performance by Corbyn Labour in a real election. Dare we hope for a repeat in Oldham? Only humiliating defeat piled on humiliating defeat can save Labour from itself.

    When do you is think the most likely time for him to be deposed? After the London mayoral election (which Labour ought to win easily given the demographics)?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 19
    Tim_B said:

    AndyJS said:

    Tim_B said:

    Subway spokesman Jared pleads guilty to possession of child porn and crossing state lines to have sex with minors, and gets 15 years.

    He won't be holding his foot long anytime soon, but his fellow prisoners might.

    He gets a longer sentence than some killers in the UK.
    I'm not surprised - Subway meats etc are pre-cut in a central plant and shipped to the store, so when you say what you want they peel the tissue paper off and put the prepared lump on the bread. It's awful, just bad.

    I prefer Lenny's, where you say what you want, and they take a ham etc and put it through the slicer in front of you.
    In general I like the USA, but the country is definitely paranoid in a lot of respects. For example I had to show my passport to buy a train ticket in Boston a few months ago. In the UK I usually walk around without any ID of any kind.
This discussion has been closed.