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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The return of Marf and tonight’s local by-election review b

SystemSystem Posts: 12,293
edited 2015 19 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The return of Marf and tonight’s local by-election review by Harry Hayfield

Watton (UKIP defence) and South Smallburgh (Lib Dem defence) on Norfolk
Result of council at last election (2013): Conservative 40, United Kingdom Independence Party 15, Labour 14, Liberal Democrats 10, Green Party 4, Independent 1 (No Overall Control, Conservatives short by 3)
Result of ward at last election (2013):

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • EastwingerEastwinger Posts: 356
    1st?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited 2015 19
    Welcome back Marf - a rather dark cartoon in both senses of the word.
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    Brilliant cartoon Marf
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Welcome back Marf!
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Missed the previous thread but there is no way people think Corbyn is doing a better job than Cameron.

    I'm not sure Corbyn thinks Corbyn is doing better than Cameron.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Freggles said:

    Missed the previous thread but there is no way people think Corbyn is doing a better job than Cameron.

    I'm not sure Corbyn thinks Corbyn is doing better than Cameron.

    George Osborne might think Corbyn is doing a better job than Cameron
  • MarfMarf Posts: 20
    Great to be back! Thank you for the warm welcome.
  • LondonBobLondonBob Posts: 467



    HMG's treatment of Syria during the so called Arab Spring was naive, just like that twat Cameron and his at the time sidekick Hague. Now, after years of death and destruction and a massive refugee crisis, HMG is coming round to the opinion that the best government for Syria is the one led by Assad.

    The irony is that Assad is now more popular than ever given the Syrian people have had an opportunity to see the alternative. The fact that the Syrian government is still standing after Turkey, Qatar, KSA and ourselves, much to our eternal shame, have poured billions, thousands of foreign jihadists and tonnes of weapons into Syria is is testament to the lack of enthusiasm for the rebel 'cause'. Indeed if voting with your feet counts then the fact the vast majority choose to live in government controlled areas says something.

    Frankly I am more concerned with Jessop's beloved Turkey; a country led by a vicious dictator that sponsors IS, who gassed civilians at Ghouta, who has unleashed a tidal wave of refugees into Europe to Islamicise it and that has annihilated it's Christian population. When Turkey, KSA and Qatar holds free and fair elections then Syria shall.

    Anyway a moot point thankfully, the substantial gains the SAA has made since the Russian intervention (East Aleppo, South Aleppo, Latakia) should see the Syrian civil war concluded by mid summer.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JournoStephen: The SNP won't like it but Jim Sillars is calling for a new Yes campaign to be set up. https://t.co/KQvW4kme5e
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Nice to see Marf on the site again.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Scott_P said:

    Freggles said:

    Missed the previous thread but there is no way people think Corbyn is doing a better job than Cameron.

    I'm not sure Corbyn thinks Corbyn is doing better than Cameron.

    George Osborne might think Corbyn is doing a better job than Cameron
    If George has found a way to remotely control the polls, that would explain a few things.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited 2015 19

    MP_SE said:

    The Mark Clarke story has legs. Guido wants to know why they are ignoring Ben Howlett's claim that Lord Feldman knew about the allegations.

    Hopefully some of the witnesses have kept any emails they sent to CCHQ.

    http://order-order.com/2015/11/19/tories-dump-on-shapps/

    I have been friends with Ben for several years even though we disagree on a lot of things. I think it is safe to say he is not going to back down on this.
    That is really good to hear.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    LondonBob said:



    HMG's treatment of Syria during the so called Arab Spring was naive, just like that twat Cameron and his at the time sidekick Hague. Now, after years of death and destruction and a massive refugee crisis, HMG is coming round to the opinion that the best government for Syria is the one led by Assad.

    The irony is that Assad is now more popular than ever given the Syrian people have had an opportunity to see the alternative. The fact that the Syrian government is still standing after Turkey, Qatar, KSA and ourselves, much to our eternal shame, have poured billions, thousands of foreign jihadists and tonnes of weapons into Syria is is testament to the lack of enthusiasm for the rebel 'cause'. Indeed if voting with your feet counts then the fact the vast majority choose to live in government controlled areas says something.

    Frankly I am more concerned with Jessop's beloved Turkey; a country led by a vicious dictator that sponsors IS, who gassed civilians at Ghouta, who has unleashed a tidal wave of refugees into Europe to Islamicise it and that has annihilated it's Christian population. When Turkey, KSA and Qatar holds free and fair elections then Syria shall.

    Anyway a moot point thankfully, the substantial gains the SAA has made since the Russian intervention (East Aleppo, South Aleppo, Latakia) should see the Syrian civil war concluded by mid summer.
    Since when have I 'beloved' Turkey?

    I mean, really.

    The rest of your post holds the same low factual content.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Thanks Marf, another hit!
    And as always, thanks Harry.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    Independents. Residents. Ratepayers. They're all just closet Tories.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    Independents. Residents. Ratepayers. They're all just closet Tories.

    Everyone except Corbyn is a Tory, I though it had been well established? :p
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    LondonBob said:



    HMG's treatment of Syria during the so called Arab Spring was naive, just like that twat Cameron and his at the time sidekick Hague. Now, after years of death and destruction and a massive refugee crisis, HMG is coming round to the opinion that the best government for Syria is the one led by Assad.

    The irony is that Assad is now more popular than ever given the Syrian people have had an opportunity to see the alternative. The fact that the Syrian government is still standing after Turkey, Qatar, KSA and ourselves, much to our eternal shame, have poured billions, thousands of foreign jihadists and tonnes of weapons into Syria is is testament to the lack of enthusiasm for the rebel 'cause'. Indeed if voting with your feet counts then the fact the vast majority choose to live in government controlled areas says something.

    Frankly I am more concerned with Jessop's beloved Turkey; a country led by a vicious dictator that sponsors IS, who gassed civilians at Ghouta, who has unleashed a tidal wave of refugees into Europe to Islamicise it and that has annihilated it's Christian population. When Turkey, KSA and Qatar holds free and fair elections then Syria shall.

    Anyway a moot point thankfully, the substantial gains the SAA has made since the Russian intervention (East Aleppo, South Aleppo, Latakia) should see the Syrian civil war concluded by mid summer.
    Since when have I 'beloved' Turkey?

    I mean, really.

    The rest of your post holds the same low factual content.
    You are overly defensive of Turkey's role in this saga, which has been to fund ISIS while simultaneously denouncing them. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey is where the direct and indirect funding comes from, whether it is by black market oil sales with the governments turning a blind eye or by "private" citizens sending suitcases of cash over the Turkish border.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 19
    School trips from UK to France have been advised against apparently.

    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/france
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Independents. Residents. Ratepayers. They're all just closet Tories.

    Oh dear - the corbyn virus has really taken hold.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Some great contests tonight.

    Thanks Harry.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    AndyJS said:

    Nice to see Marf on the site again.

    :+1:
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited 2015 19
    Sean_F said:

    'There's a pattern of Labour being 4-10% behind the Conservatives in polling. And, that seems to be borne out in local by-elections.

    That's not good for the main opposition, at this stage of the Parliament. '

    It is a fair bit closer than 6 months into the 1987 Parliament.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited 2015 19
    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    LOL - I am among the Lab members more sympathetic to ousting Corbyn (having not voted for him in the first place), but even so I'm closer to Corbyn's politics than I am to Hopi Sen's and his rubbish about how Labour need to accept austerity.

    The last thing the "moderates" as a whole need to be doing is trying to present it as a binary choice between hardcore swivel-eyed-Blairism and Corbyn, because nothing could do more to shore up Corbyn's position.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 19
    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    May I point to the fact that Ipsos-Mori made a mess of this month's poll:

    SNP: London 5%

    And UKIP loses 10% of it's UK 2015 voters to the SNP, despite the fact that UKIP only got 1% in Scotland in 2015.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/political-monitor-november-2015-tables.pdf

    Unfortunately I gave to declare it a Junk Poll.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited 2015 19
    @John_Ferrett: Incredible scenes at @pompeylabour AGM - Corbyn candidate @eurosue loses Chair vote to Graham Heaney on the toss of a coin! Mayhem ensues.

    EDIT

    @John_Ferrett: Hold the back page! Regional office have opined coin toss cannot be used after one ballot. Another vote for Chair to take place!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    MaxPB said:

    You are overly defensive of Turkey's role in this saga, which has been to fund ISIS while simultaneously denouncing them. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey is where the direct and indirect funding comes from, whether it is by black market oil sales with the governments turning a blind eye or by "private" citizens sending suitcases of cash over the Turkish border.

    No, I just don't believe stupid conspiracy theories about Erdogan wanting a new Ottoman Empire which, if I recall correctly, you do believe. If you start from that viewpoint it's no wonder you blindly believe anything bad you read about Turkey.

    Others may have noted that I'm no fan of Erdogan - as examples his oppression of the media is a very poor indication of the way he wants to run the country, and I dislike the way he put down the protests a couple of years ago - but your hatred of Turkey does you little credit.

    It is a mistake is to think Turkish politics is anything like our politics, when in fact it includes a series of groups that don't necessarily follow party lines: some of these groups, like Gulen and his supporters, are real enough: others such as Ergenekon may exist, or may well be fictional.

    You should also remember the work Turkey has been doing, along with Lebanon and Jordan, with the refugees. Work that people like you give them no credit for. Then you have the problem of the PKK that is directly involved with the Syrian civil war.

    And don't forget Turkey has also suffered from ISIS attacks that have killed many people.

    Even before those attacks, the Turkish parliament had a parliamentary vote last year enabling the military to attack parties inside Iraq and Syria, including ISIS. The motion was passed.

    You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,482
    This is a really beautifully drawn cartoon - the caricature is very on point, and the gunman very intimidating.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    School trips from UK to France have been advised against apparently.

    https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/france

    Well France borders the world capital of islamic terrorism: Belgium.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Populus are a reputable polling Company, I am surprised they didn't tell you to och aye off.... given your attitude
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    edited 2015 19
    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,482

    MaxPB said:

    You are overly defensive of Turkey's role in this saga, which has been to fund ISIS while simultaneously denouncing them. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey is where the direct and indirect funding comes from, whether it is by black market oil sales with the governments turning a blind eye or by "private" citizens sending suitcases of cash over the Turkish border.

    No, I just don't believe stupid conspiracy theories about Erdogan wanting a new Ottoman Empire which, if I recall correctly, you do believe. If you start from that viewpoint it's no wonder you blindly believe anything bad you read about Turkey.

    Others may have noted that I'm no fan of Erdogan - as examples his oppression of the media is a very poor indication of the way he wants to run the country, and I dislike the way he put down the protests a couple of years ago - but your hatred of Turkey does you little credit.

    It is a mistake is to think Turkish politics is anything like our politics, when in fact it includes a series of groups that don't necessarily follow party lines: some of these groups, like Gulen and his supporters, are real enough: others such as Ergenekon may exist, or may well be fictional.

    You should also remember the work Turkey has been doing, along with Lebanon and Jordan, with the refugees. Work that people like you give them no credit for. Then you have the problem of the PKK that is directly involved with the Syrian civil war.

    And don't forget Turkey has also suffered from ISIS attacks that have killed many people.

    Even before those attacks, the Turkish parliament had a parliamentary vote last year enabling the military to attack parties inside Iraq and Syria, including ISIS. The motion was passed.

    You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true.
    Where has MaxPB said he hates Turkey?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @John_Ferrett: A good example of why Labour are unfit to run anything at the moment is being played out at the Portsmouth Labour Party AGM #chaos

    @John_Ferrett: Apparently some people have left in the hiatus between the two votes - cue more arguments when they announce this result.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @John_Ferrett: Brilliant! Another tie for Portsmouth Labour Party Chair! Another ballot!! This is just so appropriate for today's Labour Party.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
    Sorry, These calls were originally going to my elderly parents. How would you feel if yours were being bothered. Happy PBtory getting your premiums from your BT shares?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Very glad Marf is back I asked after her on here the other day. I have one of her originals which is wonderful.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    Who is hopisen ?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    MaxPB said:

    You are overly defensive of Turkey's role in this saga, which has been to fund ISIS while simultaneously denouncing them. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey is where the direct and indirect funding comes from, whether it is by black market oil sales with the governments turning a blind eye or by "private" citizens sending suitcases of cash over the Turkish border.

    No, I just don't believe stupid conspiracy theories about Erdogan wanting a new Ottoman Empire which, if I recall correctly, you do believe. If you start from that viewpoint it's no wonder you blindly believe anything bad you read about Turkey.

    Others may have noted that I'm no fan of Erdogan - as examples his oppression of the media is a very poor indication of the way he wants to run the country, and I dislike the way he put down the protests a couple of years ago - but your hatred of Turkey does you little credit.

    It is a mistake is to think Turkish politics is anything like our politics, when in fact it includes a series of groups that don't necessarily follow party lines: some of these groups, like Gulen and his supporters, are real enough: others such as Ergenekon may exist, or may well be fictional.

    You should also remember the work Turkey has been doing, along with Lebanon and Jordan, with the refugees. Work that people like you give them no credit for. Then you have the problem of the PKK that is directly involved with the Syrian civil war.

    And don't forget Turkey has also suffered from ISIS attacks that have killed many people.

    Even before those attacks, the Turkish parliament had a parliamentary vote last year enabling the military to attack parties inside Iraq and Syria, including ISIS. The motion was passed.

    You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true.
    Where has MaxPB said he hates Turkey?
    He gives that impression, at least to me. It'd be nice to hear him say something good about Turkey. Since he does not, and repeatedly writes invective against the country, you can see why someone could say that he hates it.

    If not, then I apologise.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Scott_P said:

    @John_Ferrett: Brilliant! Another tie for Portsmouth Labour Party Chair! Another ballot!! This is just so appropriate for today's Labour Party.

    What?
    2 ties in a local party chairmanship vote in Portsmouth = Corbyn's Labour, how exactly?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MaxPB said:

    LondonBob said:



    HMG's treatment of Syria during the so called Arab Spring was naive, just like that twat Cameron and his at the time sidekick Hague. Now, after years of death and destruction and a massive refugee crisis, HMG is coming round to the opinion that the best government for Syria is the one led by Assad.

    The irony is that Assad is now more popular than ever given the Syrian people have had an opportunity to see the alternative. The fact that the Syrian government is still standing after Turkey, Qatar, KSA and ourselves, much to our eternal shame, have poured billions, thousands of foreign jihadists and tonnes of weapons into Syria is is testament to the lack of enthusiasm for the rebel 'cause'. Indeed if voting with your feet counts then the fact the vast majority choose to live in government controlled areas says something.

    Frankly I am more concerned with Jessop's beloved Turkey; a country led by a vicious dictator that sponsors IS, who gassed civilians at Ghouta, who has unleashed a tidal wave of refugees into Europe to Islamicise it and that has annihilated it's Christian population. When Turkey, KSA and Qatar holds free and fair elections then Syria shall.

    Anyway a moot point thankfully, the substantial gains the SAA has made since the Russian intervention (East Aleppo, South Aleppo, Latakia) should see the Syrian civil war concluded by mid summer.
    Since when have I 'beloved' Turkey?

    I mean, really.

    The rest of your post holds the same low factual content.
    You are overly defensive of Turkey's role in this saga, which has been to fund ISIS while simultaneously denouncing them. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it any less true. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey is where the direct and indirect funding comes from, whether it is by black market oil sales with the governments turning a blind eye or by "private" citizens sending suitcases of cash over the Turkish border.
    You have proof of Turkish government supporting ISIS. How many Syrian refugees are European governments looking after ?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    That's today's Labour Party for you. All the sensible people are on the outside at the moment.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Don't most of them originate from abroad, which means nothing can be done about them?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited 2015 19
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    The deficit deniers who objected to every cut were in charge for the last five years and then roundly rejected by the country in case you've forgotten. You had a vaguely Leftish leadership under Ed and Ed.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    I wasn't specifically referring to that guy.

    However anyone who supported Liz Kendall for anything must be out of their minds.
    http://hopisen.com/2015/liz-kendall-for-prime-minister/

    "Brilliant, funny, charming people turn into empty automata or grinning masks under this pressure to know everything. Sometimes they end up as an empty automaton in a grinning mask, and you’re never quite sure what’s real and what false, what’s meant and what’s meaningless.

    That’s the cartoon politician you see on TV. That’s where and why they get formed and defined.

    It was at one of these type of events I heard Liz speak. I think she was there because Andy Burnham couldn’t make it. Actually, she didn’t even make a speech. It was a discussion about health and social care with people who knew loads more about the subject than I did. I was there to fill the room, and I expected nothing but an evening of silence broken by the occasional thoughtful nod.

    Liz was just somehow different to any other frontbencher I’d seen."

    If only he reversed the order of the article he would have accurately described Liz Kendall.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
    Sorry, These calls were originally going to my elderly parents. How would you feel if yours were being bothered. Happy PBtory getting your premiums from your BT shares?
    Errr I have no shares in BT, but I do "invest" in BT call guardian 8500. I get zero calls from those I do not want to speak to as I can choose to ignore them, you should try it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    @John_Ferrett: Brilliant! Another tie for Portsmouth Labour Party Chair! Another ballot!! This is just so appropriate for today's Labour Party.

    Why is a tie on a vote bad ? I was voting in a CLP vote 30 years ago. We had 3 votes, all tied. The Chair decided we come back on Wednesday evening. First vote, guess what ?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    The deficit deniers who objected to every cut were in charge for the last five years and then roundly rejected by the country in case you've forgotten. You had a vaguely Leftish leadership under Ed and Ed.
    The public thought Cameron was more to the Right, than Miliband ever was to the Left.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Scott_P said:

    @John_Ferrett: A good example of why Labour are unfit to run anything at the moment is being played out at the Portsmouth Labour Party AGM #chaos

    @John_Ferrett: Apparently some people have left in the hiatus between the two votes - cue more arguments when they announce this result.

    The new politics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    I wasn't specifically referring to that guy.

    However anyone who supported Liz Kendall for anything must be out of their minds.
    Kendall was just a blank canvas on which people painted their hopes. Just like Jarvis so far. She turned out to have all of the depth of a canvas too which was unfortunate. Not his best call I admit.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I keep reading that Abdelhamid Abaaoud returned to Syria in January. The only evidence seems to be his own tweet.

    What if he never went back to Syria ? Just sowed out a misinformation.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    AndyJS said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Don't most of them originate from abroad, which means nothing can be done about them?
    Judging by the accents, most of them are from abroad.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    I wasn't specifically referring to that guy.

    However anyone who supported Liz Kendall for anything must be out of their minds.
    Kendall was just a blank canvas on which people painted their hopes. Just like Jarvis so far. She turned out to have all of the depth of a canvas too which was unfortunate. Not his best call I admit.
    Kendall was a laugh ! A 4% laugh. That's the Blairite vote.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    The deficit deniers who objected to every cut were in charge for the last five years and then roundly rejected by the country in case you've forgotten. You had a vaguely Leftish leadership under Ed and Ed.
    The public thought Cameron was more to the Right, than Miliband ever was to the Left.
    Yet they found Miliband completely unelectable and millions more voted for Cameron's Tories. Go figure that out!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    surbiton said:

    You have proof of Turkish government supporting ISIS. How many Syrian refugees are European governments looking after ?

    Parts of the government directly did support ISIS, in the early days, as part of their anti-Assad and anti-PKK aims, but this was nowhere near official policy. Again, it is a mistake to think of Turkish government as being some form of singular entity.

    Never underestimate the Turkish government's dislike of the PKK and, to a lesser but real extent, the Kurds. Some would like to destroy them - it's the same mindset that causes them to deny the Armenian genocide, and it is appalling. Many things Turkey does should be filtered through that prism.

    They also support other groups, and apparently part of the government even supported Assad at very early stages, even whilst another part was condemning him! Again, it's all to do with the Kurds.

    It was an example of the enemy-of-our-enemy-is-our-friend philosophy that many on here want to do in supporting Assad against ISIS, and will probably have the same effect.

    Then there are other issues: there is severe corruption in parts of Turkey (which, in part, is a hangover of smuggling from the Ottoman days when a vast amount of valuable trade passed through the country). Traditionally governments of all stripes in the country have turned a blind eye to this.

    But I'm probably saying too much. :(
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @John_Ferrett: Brilliant! Another tie for Portsmouth Labour Party Chair! Another ballot!! This is just so appropriate for today's Labour Party.

    Why is a tie on a vote bad ? I was voting in a CLP vote 30 years ago. We had 3 votes, all tied. The Chair decided we come back on Wednesday evening. First vote, guess what ?
    I find it impressive that they have found more than one person to stand for CLP chair.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    I wasn't specifically referring to that guy.

    However anyone who supported Liz Kendall for anything must be out of their minds.
    Kendall was just a blank canvas on which people painted their hopes. Just like Jarvis so far. She turned out to have all of the depth of a canvas too which was unfortunate. Not his best call I admit.
    Kendall was a laugh ! A 4% laugh. That's the Blairite vote.
    My 1st choice :)
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    The problem of having Blairite candidates is this:

    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2m2 minutes ago
    Via Guido
    A problem of having LAB council leader as candidate is that he can be vulnerable to this

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUM4UFHXAAAd8gF.jpg:large

    They are vulnerable to scandal.
    Hopisen is not a candidate. He is just a remarkably sensible and persuasive writer. I would vote for a Labour Party that had his world view, especially if the Tories get too overconfident after Cameron.
    I wasn't specifically referring to that guy.

    However anyone who supported Liz Kendall for anything must be out of their minds.
    Kendall was just a blank canvas on which people painted their hopes. Just like Jarvis so far. She turned out to have all of the depth of a canvas too which was unfortunate. Not his best call I admit.
    Kendall was a laugh ! A 4% laugh. That's the Blairite vote.
    Come now, be fair. Her vote rounded up to 5%.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    OchEye said:

    OchEye said:

    RobD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just had a nuisance call from Populus, Googled the number 03453130337 and found numerous complaints against it. Phoned 0191 265 0525 to get taken off their list and was told that since it was not a cold call selling stuff, they did not need to register TPS.

    Get this, Telephone Surveys are now not so much passe, they should be downright illegal. Anyone who believes telephone surveys needs a brain planted into their skull to fill the void.

    Call your operator to have the number blocked if it bothers you that much?
    Not a chance, BT makes so much money out of the junk calls . Have invested in a Truecall unit which does the job so much better. Unfortunately, junk calls do get through once in a while if they have a UK phone number. However, once known, immediately blocked.

    But still, if my phone number is registered with TPS, as is my mobile, why are these damn calls still getting through. My landline is still registering 20 nuisance calls a week, down I must admit from 30 a day before I fitted the unit, but I am still not a happy bunny.

    Added for clarity: I have records of all the nuisance calls, whether they are foreign, withheld or are just previously recorded as nuisance.
    You sound the sort of annoying person who deserves 30 nuisance calls a day..
    Sorry, These calls were originally going to my elderly parents. How would you feel if yours were being bothered. Happy PBtory getting your premiums from your BT shares?
    Errr I have no shares in BT, but I do "invest" in BT call guardian 8500. I get zero calls from those I do not want to speak to as I can choose to ignore them, you should try it.
    In similar circumstances, acting on the advice of someone here, (hat-tip to whoever it was) I signed us up for Caller Display. Free, IIRC, for the first year. Number withheld; don't answer. International (unless it's my wife's cousin) similar. Unrecognised numbers: same again.
    If it's someone genuine they'll leave a message.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: The Independent say a resolution authorising the "eradication" of Isis in Syria is set to be agreed by the UN Security Council.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,135
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    The deficit deniers who objected to every cut were in charge for the last five years and then roundly rejected by the country in case you've forgotten. You had a vaguely Leftish leadership under Ed and Ed.
    The public thought Cameron was more to the Right, than Miliband ever was to the Left.
    Fractionally, Clegg was the most centrist. It now thinks Corbyn is more to the Left than Cameron to the Right
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 19
    Oh goody Mehdi Hassan is on QT tonight.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    The deficit deniers who objected to every cut were in charge for the last five years and then roundly rejected by the country in case you've forgotten. You had a vaguely Leftish leadership under Ed and Ed.
    The public thought Cameron was more to the Right, than Miliband ever was to the Left.
    Yet they found Miliband completely unelectable and millions more voted for Cameron's Tories. Go figure that out!
    The mind set of the these socialists and their nat cousins is incredible to behold. Reality is a far away country across an deep ocean tossed by gigantic storms.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: The Independent say a resolution authorising the "eradication" of Isis in Syria is set to be agreed by the UN Security Council.

    But only yesterday Mr Cameron asserted that Russia would block it.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    Out of 1500 billion pounds, 600 billion by Osborne, 400 billion by Brown :

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_G0t
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @hendopolis: INDEPENDENT: World prepares grand alliance against ISIS #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers https://t.co/AbqZKpLIRu
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 19
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/667462940476469248

    TELEGRAPH: Terrorist ringleader got into EUas 'refugee'
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19

    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: The Independent say a resolution authorising the "eradication" of Isis in Syria is set to be agreed by the UN Security Council.

    But only yesterday Mr Cameron asserted that Russia would block it.
    I suspect Cameron never wanted a UN resolution because then Corbyn would have supported it, and Cameron then would no longer be able to milk the ISIS issue to portray Corbyn as unpatriotic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/667462940476469248

    TELEGRAPH: Terrorist ringleader got into EUas 'refugee'

    Look, sparkling diamond to shift attention on the front page.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    The Tories borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 years ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: The Independent say a resolution authorising the "eradication" of Isis in Syria is set to be agreed by the UN Security Council.

    But only yesterday Mr Cameron asserted that Russia would block it.
    I suspect Cameron never wanted a UN resolution because then Corbyn would have supported it, and Cameron then would no longer be able to milk the ISIS issue to portray Corbyn as unpatriotic.
    You are suggesting that our PM wanted to play politics over such a serious issue. I cannot believe that for a moment.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
    But surely you have a sizeabke investment income that has been given a series of ever larger tax reliefs - higher and higer Isa allowances that only those with 15k spare income can take advantage of and now share dividends tax free even outside of a stocks and shares isa.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Spending on health is up in real terms as is International Aid. But there is no doubt that spending was out of control and needed to be curtailed.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
    Well someone is paying less income tax, in 2015 the revenue level is lower than in 2008, though revenue from income tax is up by 28 billion since Osborne took over, there has been no revenue increases since 2011:

    http://www.ukpublicrevenue.co.uk/revenue_chart_1986_2017UKb_15c1li111mcn_11t
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Spending on health is up in real terms as is International Aid. But there is no doubt that spending was out of control and needed to be curtailed.
    Just imagine if we cut the hobby horses of both the left and the right !
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/667462940476469248

    TELEGRAPH: Terrorist ringleader got into EUas 'refugee'

    Is there any proof that he went to Syria in January in the first place ? The "intelligence" [ LOL ] looks like of the same quality as 2003 !
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    Scott_P said:

    @PolhomeEditor: The Independent say a resolution authorising the "eradication" of Isis in Syria is set to be agreed by the UN Security Council.

    But only yesterday Mr Cameron asserted that Russia would block it.
    It sounds more nuanced than that:
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/29/david-cameron-syria-uk-us-russia-iran-assad-cbs-putin-rouhani

    The contentious point, as on here, is the future of Assad. Either the UK, US and others have given in and said Assad can stay in the long-term; or Russia has said he will go in the long-term. More likely is that there has been some form of diplomatic kludge: Assad will stay on for the moment, but he will leave later. Which will be one of those definitions of 'later' which never arrives.

    As you might guess, I don't like that kudge.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,352
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
    I have almost no investment income at all. Those that are dependent on investment income have of course paid the highest price for ultra low interest rates. Many of the main sufferers have been pensioners.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
    But surely you have a sizeabke investment income that has been given a series of ever larger tax reliefs - higher and higer Isa allowances that only those with 15k spare income can take advantage of and now share dividends tax free even outside of a stocks and shares isa.
    I'm taking that £1000 interest as a personal target next year.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    Oh you object to people who live in the real world... Right. Fair enough.
    Is your definition of the "real world" where there's always money for tax cuts for big businesses or people in £1m properties, yet never enough for people in desperate need of public services or help for a liveable wage?
    My definition of the real world is one where we still have a structural deficit of the best part of £100bn that needs to be covered by tax increases or spending cuts or both. Osborne has massively increased the taxes paid by those with high incomes but it is not enough and it never will be. A Labour Party that refuses to recognise that is a waste of space.
    Can you prove that Osborne has increased taxes on those high incomes?
    Not on an iphone but look at the tax take of the top decile since 2010. It is higher than ever. I am a long way from rich but since 2010 I have lost all of my PA, all of my CB and I pay 40% on a higher share of my income than ever before. I am not complaining, it's not like I am a doctor or anything, but going on about tax cuts for the wealthy is just so far off the mark.
    I have almost no investment income at all. Those that are dependent on investment income have of course paid the highest price for ultra low interest rates. Many of the main sufferers have been pensioners.
    They're really not trying very hard.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,081
    surbiton said:

    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    The Tories borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 years ?
    Labour took the deficit to £180 billion a year, about 1 in 4 pounds the government was spending at the time. Labour then get booted out of office when the public finally twigged that Gordon Brown was a bloody fool, and that Labour were not a safe pair of hands when it came to the economy. When the new government came in the mess Brown and co. made didn't magically disappear, the deficit didn't magically reset to zero. But you actually know all that. And if you don't you are seriously stupid.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    @hopisen: People keep asking me "but why does Labour even need you bloody centrist Blairites?" You may not like the honest answer, but here it is...

    @hopisen: @hopisen: ...only we Blairites can ride the giant sandworms of the desert and harvest them for Melange. Without us the empire will collapse.

    A Labour Party without hopisen would really be completely pointless.
    But it's because of people like him that Corbyn was elected in the first place.
    Not sure he is a complete fan.
    It's because the austerity-advocates have been so vocal within Labour in recent years, mainstream Labour members (including people who were pragmatic enough to vote for David Miliband just 5 years ago) thought the whole Labour Establishment was so far away from them that Corbyn was the only option for even a vaguely Leftish leadership.
    You really think we can keep borrowing more for ever.

    Ever heard of interest payments?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 19
    DavidL said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.
    Osborne splurged on pensions for the pensioner vote regardless of the deficit.

    Spending on health is up in real terms as is International Aid. But there is no doubt that spending was out of control and needed to be curtailed.
    The big thing is pensions though, Osborne's pensions splurge accounts for half off all increased spending. And it's not funded from National Insurance revenue, that has only risen by 10 billion since 2010, only a quarter of the increase in pensions.

    The country is going to face a pensions crisis in a few years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    surbiton said:

    watford30 said:

    Speedy said:

    Digging deeper on DavidL's argument about taxes and spending from Osborne, spending has increased by 80 billion pounds since 2010, 40 billion of that is on Pensions and 20 billion on debt interest:

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_2004_2016UKb_15c1li111mcn_00t

    Spending on everything else is either stagnant or falling.

    Excellent news.

    Remind us who ran up all the debt.
    The Tories borrowed more in 5 years than Labour did in 13 years ?
    Nonsense, your lot created the deficit. The Tories are cutting the deficit you can't oppose both cutting the deficit and it not being eliminated simultaneously and pretend to be serious.
This discussion has been closed.