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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 19

    0_o
    I worry my daughters will be groomed by ISIS and lured to Syria, warns Labour's London Mayor candidate Sadiq Khan

    Zac Goldsmith strikes me as a lucky general.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,052
    edited 2015 19
    Pulpstar said:

    Entertaining poll after the OMG stuff on yesterday's thread. I expect the truth is somewhere in between, as usual, but as I've been saying for some weeks, we Corbynites have not heard him say anything we dislike so far, though putting it across outside the ranks of existing supporters is a learning curve...

    Meanwhile, wry cartoon in the middlebrow German mag Cicero, called "The limits of military strategy":

    http://www.cicero.de/karikaturen/die-grenzen-der-militaerstrategie

    "They're launching air attacks against the CENTRE of IS terrorism". "Against BELGIUM?"

    Like all good cartoons, it makes a useful point. Even if ISIS is utterly defeated in Syria and Iraq, there will still be a global problem.

    Naziism didn't die when Berlin was taken Nick.

    But it helped.
    Quite. I'm not totally convinced of the efficacy of air strikes, it seems like it would take a lot more to succeed even in Syria and even if it is possible for the world to do a lot mor ein theory, in political terms there does not appear to be the will or public support for the extremes necessary, but the 'this doesn't solve everything, so we might as well do nothing' type argument is an ancient political tactic. It's used sincerely, sometimes peopel feel, quite rightly, that no action is better than a bad action, but it's also used as an excuse to not try something which might be a good thing, even if it has some negative consequences.

    Most often used with oppositions of all stripes - 'I've found an example of someone negatively affected by the government proposal, therefore it must be terrible and must not happen' regardless of any wider merits or necessitities behind the proposals.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774

    Entertaining poll after the OMG stuff on yesterday's thread. I expect the truth is somewhere in between, as usual, but as I've been saying for some weeks, we Corbynites have not heard him say anything we dislike so far, though putting it across outside the ranks of existing supporters is a learning curve...

    Meanwhile, wry cartoon in the middlebrow German mag Cicero, called "The limits of military strategy":

    http://www.cicero.de/karikaturen/die-grenzen-der-militaerstrategie

    "They're launching air attacks against the CENTRE of IS terrorism". "Against BELGIUM?"

    Like all good cartoons, it makes a useful point. Even if ISIS is utterly defeated in Syria and Iraq, there will still be a global problem.

    Yep - Nick voted for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and calls them his friends, and that is exactly what Nick got. Nick is not interested in Labour ever being in power again. He is happy for the Tories to do the governing stuff. It's good for Nick he has got what he wants. But maybe less good for the people that Labour used to care about.

    How do you explain him being the most popular leader despite constant sniping from MPs like Danczuk and former supporters like yourself.

    Why are Lab polling more than at GE 2015 despite people like yourself and DH changing their horse?

    I think anyone looking at opinion polls and not real polls is deluding him/herself after the polling fiasco in May. I knew they were wrong then. I know this one is wrong now.

    You may be right, I may even agree.

    I think the difference between us is I can no longer support a Tory Lite position on Austerity, benefits, public services from Labour.

    You can't tolerate Corbyn.

    Our Broad Church is well broken methinks.

    As to which approach will be more popular IMO we have lost last 2 elections on Tory Lite ticket. So dont think there is muh to lose by trying to get the DNV their all the same types and the Old Labour left back.

    We will have to disagree I am afraid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    Good to see after the election, Ipsos at least have found a way to get back to opinion polling we can all rely on.

    Pffffft......
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Entertaining poll after the OMG stuff on yesterday's thread. I expect the truth is somewhere in between, as usual, but as I've been saying for some weeks, we Corbynites have not heard him say anything we dislike so far, though putting it across outside the ranks of existing supporters is a learning curve...

    Meanwhile, wry cartoon in the middlebrow German mag Cicero, called "The limits of military strategy":

    http://www.cicero.de/karikaturen/die-grenzen-der-militaerstrategie

    "They're launching air attacks against the CENTRE of IS terrorism". "Against BELGIUM?"

    Like all good cartoons, it makes a useful point. Even if ISIS is utterly defeated in Syria and Iraq, there will still be a global problem.

    Yep - Nick voted for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and calls them his friends, and that is exactly what Nick got. Nick is not interested in Labour ever being in power again. He is happy for the Tories to do the governing stuff. It's good for Nick he has got what he wants. But maybe less good for the people that Labour used to care about.

    How do you explain him being the most popular leader despite constant sniping from MPs like Danczuk and former supporters like yourself.

    Why are Lab polling more than at GE 2015 despite people like yourself and DH changing their horse?

    I think anyone looking at opinion polls and not real polls is deluding him/herself after the polling fiasco in May. I knew they were wrong then. I know this one is wrong now.

    Bloody hell, I find myself agreeing with, Mr, Observer, again. This is becoming a habit.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    We appear to be heading back to two party politics.

    ‘Farron ahead of Cameron’ – ah bless…

    Isn't everyone doing better than Cameron according to that poll? Now I cannot stomach Cameron at any price, but I cannot believe those figures are meaningful either.
    Most non-Tories disapprove of Cameron (and the question asks about him as PM, not as party leader). For the others, there are lots of don't knows (esp. Farron) and also surely some percentage of people saying "he's doing fine leading his party in the wrong direction".
    So we have another pointless opinion poll.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    IPSOS has been running this poll, or one very close to it since 1976.

    Were you looking for an agenda ?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    0_o

    I worry my daughters will be groomed by ISIS and lured to Syria, warns Labour's London Mayor candidate Sadiq Khan

    More must be done to prevent children accessing extremist material online
    Admits he grew up with people who went on to 'act' on terrible views
    Warns British Muslims have a 'special role' to 'root out' extremists
    Distances himself from Corbyn's warning about police shooting terrorists
    Insists British Muslim women and girls should be free not to wear the veil


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325538/I-worry-daughters-groomed-ISIS-lured-Syria-warns-Labour-s-candidate-London-Mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html#ixzz3rxGh5Rcl
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    Daughters who are 14 and 16.

    Give them the vote, then they will understand everything.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    An academic perspective on Labour's nascent civil war:

    http://linkis.com/wordpress.com/FucAx

    Conclusion:

    "Labour’s social democrats are talking about “18 months to 2 years” before Corbyn’s time is up. At the current rate of ‘progress’ by that time there will be precious little of the historic social democratic Labour party left to salvage – even if it is possible. History may well judge that they missed their opportunity to seize their party back when they had the chance and by the time they did try it was too late. We may yet end up with a more ‘continental’ configuration of the left in Britain: two parties, one social democratic and the other reformist socialist with maybe a revolutionary wing."
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    Isn't this the one they run every month?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: In response to @Chris A, who responded to my comment below

    "They certainly need a reality check. A sense of professionalism too, if they want to be thought of as professionals. And a recognition that their salaries are paid for by others' taxes. Others who earn less, have less job security, have endured far more hardship than doctors and who depend on them."

    With this -

    "Ah yes the usual pb commentator who cannot stand the fact that there are some things which the state should do and therefore pay people to do it. It matters not a fig where the salary comes from if the government is committed to doing dangerous things they have a duty to speak up. "

    I haven't seen you around much but for your information the reasons I have a problem - a big problem - with what the doctors are proposing are these:-

    1. When there was the last doctor's strike, operations were postponed. My father was one of those patients whose operation was postponed and by the time he had it the cancer was inoperable and he died from a cancer which, even then, he could have survived. My father was a doctor and would never have done to patients what was done to him. And he never did so in a career that spanned 40 years, encompassing WW2 and where he was paid far less than doctors now and paid far more tax. He suffered, his family suffered and I miss him to this day. I think it unconscionable that doctors now should seek to take the risk of inflicting something similar on people today and still claim the moral high ground.

    2. There is no reason why the state should do health or all of it. Very few countries in the world have a system like ours. Doctors are very keen on the NHS but are not prepared to accept the restraints that such a system inevitably puts on patients - via rationing (or queues, as they are known) - or on salaries. They want to have market salaries in a state run system.

    3. I have been having a series of tests over the last few weeks in relation to various issues, one of which may be cancer. I do not want to be in a position where any treatment I need is delayed because doctors are more bothered about their pay than about their duties to their patients. I should not need to spell out why I feel concerned.

    Sorry to hear about your health.

    Hope it turns out to be something less serious.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    An academic perspective on Labour's nascent civil war:

    http://linkis.com/wordpress.com/FucAx

    Conclusion:

    "Labour’s social democrats are talking about “18 months to 2 years” before Corbyn’s time is up. At the current rate of ‘progress’ by that time there will be precious little of the historic social democratic Labour party left to salvage – even if it is possible. History may well judge that they missed their opportunity to seize their party back when they had the chance and by the time they did try it was too late. We may yet end up with a more ‘continental’ configuration of the left in Britain: two parties, one social democratic and the other reformist socialist with maybe a revolutionary wing."

    That conclusion ties in with my thoughts.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    We appear to be heading back to two party politics.

    ‘Farron ahead of Cameron’ – ah bless…

    Isn't everyone doing better than Cameron according to that poll? Now I cannot stomach Cameron at any price, but I cannot believe those figures are meaningful either.
    Most non-Tories disapprove of Cameron (and the question asks about him as PM, not as party leader). For the others, there are lots of don't knows (esp. Farron) and also surely some percentage of people saying "he's doing fine leading his party in the wrong direction".
    So we have another pointless opinion poll.
    Generally the degree to which someone thinks a poll is pointless is in direct proportion to their dislike of the numbers.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842

    Entertaining poll after the OMG stuff on yesterday's thread. I expect the truth is somewhere in between, as usual, but as I've been saying for some weeks, we Corbynites have not heard him say anything we dislike so far, though putting it across outside the ranks of existing supporters is a learning curve...

    Meanwhile, wry cartoon in the middlebrow German mag Cicero, called "The limits of military strategy":

    http://www.cicero.de/karikaturen/die-grenzen-der-militaerstrategie

    "They're launching air attacks against the CENTRE of IS terrorism". "Against BELGIUM?"

    Like all good cartoons, it makes a useful point. Even if ISIS is utterly defeated in Syria and Iraq, there will still be a global problem.

    Yep - Nick voted for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and calls them his friends, and that is exactly what Nick got. Nick is not interested in Labour ever being in power again. He is happy for the Tories to do the governing stuff. It's good for Nick he has got what he wants. But maybe less good for the people that Labour used to care about.

    How do you explain him being the most popular leader despite constant sniping from MPs like Danczuk and former supporters like yourself.

    Why are Lab polling more than at GE 2015 despite people like yourself and DH changing their horse?

    I think anyone looking at opinion polls and not real polls is deluding him/herself after the polling fiasco in May. I knew they were wrong then. I know this one is wrong now.

    You may be right, I may even agree.

    I think the difference between us is I can no longer support a Tory Lite position on Austerity, benefits, public services from Labour.

    You can't tolerate Corbyn.

    Our Broad Church is well broken methinks.

    As to which approach will be more popular IMO we have lost last 2 elections on Tory Lite ticket. So dont think there is muh to lose by trying to get the DNV their all the same types and the Old Labour left back.

    We will have to disagree I am afraid.

    Disagreements on austerity and economic policy are actually manageable. The real problem for people like me is that Corbyn is, to put it mildly, not remotely credible on national security issues, surrounds himself with others with the same viewpoint and calls apologists for terrorism and worse his friends. That is the starting point and precludes discussion of all else.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Royale, mentioned that last thread, although my comparison was with the inbound doom of global warming.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: In response to @Chris A, who responded to my comment below

    "They certainly need a reality check. A sense of professionalism too, if they want to be thought of as professionals. And a recognition that their salaries are paid for by others' taxes. Others who earn less, have less job security, have endured far more hardship than doctors and who depend on them."

    With this -

    "Ah yes the usual pb commentator who cannot stand the fact that there are some things which the state should do and therefore pay people to do it. It matters not a fig where the salary comes from if the government is committed to doing dangerous things they have a duty to speak up. "

    I haven't seen you around much but for your information the reasons I have a problem - a big problem - with what the doctors are proposing are these:-

    1. When there was the last doctor's strike, operations were postponed. My father was one of those patients whose operation was postponed and by the time he had it the cancer was inoperable and he died from a cancer which, even then, he could have survived. My father was a doctor and would never have done to patients what was done to him. And he never did so in a career that spanned 40 years, encompassing WW2 and where he was paid far less than doctors now and paid far more tax. He suffered, his family suffered and I miss him to this day. I think it unconscionable that doctors now should seek to take the risk of inflicting something similar on people today and still claim the moral high ground.

    2. There is no reason why the state should do health or all of it. Very few countries in the world have a system like ours. Doctors are very keen on the NHS but are not prepared to accept the restraints that such a system inevitably puts on patients - via rationing (or queues, as they are known) - or on salaries. They want to have market salaries in a state run system.

    3. I have been having a series of tests over the last few weeks in relation to various issues, one of which may be cancer. I do not want to be in a position where any treatment I need is delayed because doctors are more bothered about their pay than about their duties to their patients. I should not need to spell out why I feel concerned.

    Sorry to hear about your health.

    Hope it turns out to be something less serious.
    Don't we all, Big John, but even if the results are good for Mrs. Free (as I pray they will be) they will not be for some other poor sod. Her point on striking doctors is powerful and valid, and the doctors do seem to me more concerned with their wallets than their patients.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    edited 2015 19

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    Yes. The Evening Standard. Ipsos Mori have been running this polling every month since the 70s.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/18/antibiotics-overprescribed-winter-deprivation/viewgallery/621523

    Shame on our GPs for being unable to say "No" to antibiotic requests for the common cold.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,268

    Entertaining poll after the OMG stuff on yesterday's thread. I expect the truth is somewhere in between, as usual, but as I've been saying for some weeks, we Corbynites have not heard him say anything we dislike so far, though putting it across outside the ranks of existing supporters is a learning curve...

    Meanwhile, wry cartoon in the middlebrow German mag Cicero, called "The limits of military strategy":

    http://www.cicero.de/karikaturen/die-grenzen-der-militaerstrategie

    "They're launching air attacks against the CENTRE of IS terrorism". "Against BELGIUM?"

    Like all good cartoons, it makes a useful point. Even if ISIS is utterly defeated in Syria and Iraq, there will still be a global problem.

    Yep - Nick voted for somt about.

    How do you explain him bnd former supporters like yourself.

    horse?

    I think anyone looking at opinion polls and not real polls is deluding him/herself after the polling fiasco in May. I knew they were wrong then. I know this one is wrong now.

    You may be right, I may even agree.

    I think the difference between us is I can no longer support a Tory Lite position on Austerity, benefits, public services from Labour.

    You can't tolerate Corbyn.

    Our Broad Church is well broken methinks.

    As to which approach will be more popular IMO we have lost last 2 elections on Tory Lite ticket. So dont think there is muh to lose by trying to get the DNV their all the same types and the Old Labour left back.

    We will have to disagree I am afraid.
    You lot (Jezza-ites) all get hung up on the whole "Tory lite/Red Tory" thing. You really don't quite understand the changes that have occurred these past few decades.

    The hard right/hard left war is over. No one won. The battleground is the centre.

    Some advocate a slightly smaller state, a bit less redistribution and a slightly smaller welfare cushion; others advocate a slightly larger state, more redistribution and a larger welfare cushion.

    On the NHS the internal market is an important part of the service to a lesser or greater degree; public sector wage demands should either be accommodated or moderated.

    This is all within spitting distance of the centre ground. But there are of course important differences that should be articulated by centre-left and centre-right, and that is how today's political parties should compete.

    Your desire to see a resurgence of the hard left and the vocabulary of class war, nationalised industries, pacifism, penal rates of taxes (I assume as a Jezza fan that is some of what you want), simply is of a different era.

    Get with the programme. And with modern Britain.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Just read about this, a march that took place just before the atrocity in Paris.

    I have said for some time, though I'm not sure I really believed it or more like I didn't want to believe it, that the EU, the very institution that had peace in Europe at the heart of it's principles, is having the exact opposite effect:


    http://newobserveronline.com/50000-nationalists-march-in-poland/
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    I have to say it's very fortunate that Russia has a nice new port on the Black Sea from which to send materiel across to Syria. Trebles all round!
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    There have been warnings about over use of antibiotics for years and years, yet doctors are still dishing them out for completely unnecessary reasons.

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Pulpstar said:

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    IPSOS has been running this poll, or one very close to it since 1976.

    Were you looking for an agenda ?
    No agenda at all, somebody will have paid for it, I'm curious who it was.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    edited 2015 19
    Anorak said:

    I have to say it's very fortunate that Russia has a nice new port on the Black Sea from which to send materiel across to Syria. Trebles all round!

    Wasn't Sevastopol a (what we called) treaty port before the annexation?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    We appear to be heading back to two party politics.

    ‘Farron ahead of Cameron’ – ah bless…

    Isn't everyone doing better than Cameron according to that poll? Now I cannot stomach Cameron at any price, but I cannot believe those figures are meaningful either.
    Most non-Tories disapprove of Cameron (and the question asks about him as PM, not as party leader). For the others, there are lots of don't knows (esp. Farron) and also surely some percentage of people saying "he's doing fine leading his party in the wrong direction".
    So we have another pointless opinion poll.
    Generally the degree to which someone thinks a poll is pointless is in direct proportion to their dislike of the numbers.
    Totally agree, polls are like shots in golf, they all please somebody. That's why I'm interested in who funded this one.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741

    Pulpstar said:

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    IPSOS has been running this poll, or one very close to it since 1976.

    Were you looking for an agenda ?
    No agenda at all, somebody will have paid for it, I'm curious who it was.

    The Evening Standard as they have been for several years.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    Pulpstar said:

    Unless I'm mistaken somebody has commissioned this poll, anybody on here know who that might be?

    IPSOS has been running this poll, or one very close to it since 1976.

    Were you looking for an agenda ?
    No agenda at all, somebody will have paid for it, I'm curious who it was.

    The evening standard? Or they simply publish it and MORI pay for it themselves as a sort of self promotion.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842



    Yep - Nick voted for someone who hangs out with apologists for terrorism and calls them his friends, and that is exactly what Nick got. Nick is not interested in Labour ever being in power again. He is happy for the Tories to do the governing stuff. It's good for Nick he has got what he wants. But maybe less good for the people that Labour used to care about.

    Southam, I don't think you should project your views onto others. You're entitled to think all the above, but your reaction to a poll you don't like is just that you're right and the poll is wrong, and your reaction to my disagreeing with you is that I'm not interested in Labour being in power.

    The equivalent would be if I said that you didn't care what Labour stood for, so long as it won elections and kept the Tories out. It's probably not a fair representation of your views. If we each stick to saying what we think ourselves, we're on more solid ground, no?

    Nick - I am afraid I can find no other explanation for the fact that you voted for an apologist for terrorism and state that he has said nothing since his election that has disappointed you. Even after all that has happened this week. I guess it could just be that you have no sense of what the British electorate will stomach. But either way the practical effect of your choice is that Labour will not be in power for as long as JC and his mates are in control of Labour. As you are happy with what he is doing, you are presumably happy with that undoubted fact. And, yes, in normal circumstances I would certainly prefer that we do not have a Tory government. Sadly, Corbyn Labour means I feel we now have the least worst option in charge. I suspect I am not alone and that real election results will prove that.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT: In response to @Chris A, who responded to my comment below

    "They certainly need a reality check. A sense of professionalism too, if they want to be thought of as professionals. And a recognition that their salaries are paid for by others' taxes. Others who earn less, have less job security, have endured far more hardship than doctors and who depend on them."

    With this -

    "Ah yes the usual pb commentator who cannot stand the fact that there are some things which the state should do and therefore pay people to do it. It matters not a fig where the salary comes from if the government is committed to doing dangerous things they have a duty to speak up. "

    I haven't seen you around much but for your information the reasons I have a problem - a big problem - with what the doctors are proposing are these:-

    1. When there was the last doctor's strike, operations were postponed. My father was one of those patients whose operation was postponed and by the time he had it the cancer was inoperable and he died from a cancer which, even then, he could have survived. My father was a doctor and would never have done to patients what was done to him. And he never did so in a career that spanned 40 years, encompassing WW2 and where he was paid far less than doctors now and paid far more tax. He suffered, his family suffered and I miss him to this day. I think it unconscionable that doctors now should seek to take the risk of inflicting something similar on people today and still claim the moral high ground.

    2. There is no reason why the state should do health or all of it. Very few countries in the world have a system like ours. Doctors are very keen on the NHS but are not prepared to accept the restraints that such a system inevitably puts on patients - via rationing (or queues, as they are known) - or on salaries. They want to have market salaries in a state run system.

    3. I have been having a series of tests over the last few weeks in relation to various issues, one of which may be cancer. I do not want to be in a position where any treatment I need is delayed because doctors are more bothered about their pay than about their duties to their patients. I should not need to spell out why I feel concerned.

    Sorry to hear about your health.

    Hope it turns out to be something less serious.
    Likewise I hope all goes well with Mrs BJO.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Has Ukraine bent over and .. Russia and Ukraine reached a deal/ceasefire yet btw ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774
    watford30 said:

    felix said:

    @SebastianEPayne: Exclusive polling from @JamesDMorris: 67% have no idea what Jeremy Corbyn is saying https://t.co/IymLvveuPp https://t.co/YI3eMWbEtn

    It is better to be incoherently the most popular leader like Jezza or Coherent but least popular like Dave
    Either you really are as thick as a docker's sandwich or you don't get how polling is meant to work 6 months after a GE in the midst of continued austerity. If you really think Corbyn or Labour could get anywhere near those levels in a GE you must have been the one advising NPXMP about his prospects in Broxtowe last May.
    If you're ever wondering why the 'Envy of the World' is in the red, take a moment to remember that it's financially 'managed' by ding dongs like Owls.
    Actually as usual you talk complete testicles. The fact you have become my new stalker is amusing though. I have been missing my previous ones The Watcher and N4E

    98% of Acute Trusts are now in deficit, Compared to 0% in 2010.

    That is not down to 98% of DOFs suddenly becoming incompetent.

    Neither is the reason my own Acute hospital is now in £3m deficit compared to £8m surplus when i left down to my brilliance.

    Only a ding dong would think so in fact.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    Ack, we're appointing an Aussie as our new national team rugby coach.

    Is nothing sacred. I can accept an Aussie Bond, but Hellz no to the England Rugby team being coached by a Flamin' Galah, we're not Scotland.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited 2015 19

    We appear to be heading back to two party politics.

    ‘Farron ahead of Cameron’ – ah bless…

    Isn't everyone doing better than Cameron according to that poll? Now I cannot stomach Cameron at any price, but I cannot believe those figures are meaningful either.
    Most non-Tories disapprove of Cameron (and the question asks about him as PM, not as party leader). For the others, there are lots of don't knows (esp. Farron) and also surely some percentage of people saying "he's doing fine leading his party in the wrong direction".
    So we have another pointless opinion poll.
    It's still an indicator and something we'll be able to measure against as we go along.

    As a yardstick, Corbyn's satisfaction rating in Northern England is 36%; Miliband was on 47% in Northern England with the same pollster one week before the May rout.

    That implies Corbyn is a negative regionally and that should feed through into Labour's overall vote, which we'll soon see in action in Oldham.

    Following the observed, individual discrepancy of each pollster often points the way to the right answer.

    Plugging in the EU2014 polling error of each pollster largely pointed to a comfortable 4-6 point win for the Tories in 2015.

    It would be nice to see a few constituency polls for the by-election so we can get an idea of who has successfully tightened up their act.
  • Bit mean of them to call Corbyn 'acting leader of the Labour Party'. I don't think he'll last til the election either but no need to rub it in
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Miss Cyclefree, hope you get good news.

    I had a testicular cancer scare a few years ago. After I had stopped thinking about Kylie Minogue, as is standard medical practice during vigorous self-examination, I noticed a lump. It was a less than thrilling experience to drop my trousers for a middle-aged doctor I'd never seen before (I tend not to get ill), but fortunately it turned out to be nothing (although I was later subjected the comedy of having my testicles ultra-sounded in hospital. Neither of them were pregnant).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774

    Just read about this, a march that took place just before the atrocity in Paris.

    I have said for some time, though I'm not sure I really believed it or more like I didn't want to believe it, that the EU, the very institution that had peace in Europe at the heart of it's principles, is having the exact opposite effect:


    http://newobserveronline.com/50000-nationalists-march-in-poland/

    Talk of the Devil

    Welcome back and behave!!
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    watford30 said:

    felix said:

    @SebastianEPayne: Exclusive polling from @JamesDMorris: 67% have no idea what Jeremy Corbyn is saying https://t.co/IymLvveuPp https://t.co/YI3eMWbEtn

    It is better to be incoherently the most popular leader like Jezza or Coherent but least popular like Dave
    Either you really are as thick as a docker's sandwich or you don't get how polling is meant to work 6 months after a GE in the midst of continued austerity. If you really think Corbyn or Labour could get anywhere near those levels in a GE you must have been the one advising NPXMP about his prospects in Broxtowe last May.
    If you're ever wondering why the 'Envy of the World' is in the red, take a moment to remember that it's financially 'managed' by ding dongs like Owls.
    Actually as usual you talk complete testicles. The fact you have become my new stalker is amusing though. I have been missing my previous ones The Watcher and N4E

    98% of Acute Trusts are now in deficit, Compared to 0% in 2010.

    That is not down to 98% of DOFs suddenly becoming incompetent.

    Neither is the reason my own Acute hospital is now in £3m deficit compared to £8m surplus when i left down to my brilliance.

    Only a ding dong would think so in fact.
    I'm still here!

    Hope that all is well with Mrs BJO, similarly best wishes to Cyclefree
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    I see the doctors are voting for strike action over a matter of principal and is no way related to squeezing more dosh out of the system. They really are tremendously selfless chaps. It brings a tear to the eye.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/18/antibiotics-overprescribed-winter-deprivation/viewgallery/621523

    Shame on our GPs for being unable to say "No" to antibiotic requests for the common cold.
    There was a report on Radio 4 this morning which said that one of the problems was the routine use of antibiotics for animals, not to cure disease but to enhance growth. I don't know what the relative importance of that is by comparison with over-prescription by GPs.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    We appear to be heading back to two party politics.

    ‘Farron ahead of Cameron’ – ah bless…

    Isn't everyone doing better than Cameron according to that poll? Now I cannot stomach Cameron at any price, but I cannot believe those figures are meaningful either.
    Most non-Tories disapprove of Cameron (and the question asks about him as PM, not as party leader). For the others, there are lots of don't knows (esp. Farron) and also surely some percentage of people saying "he's doing fine leading his party in the wrong direction".
    So we have another pointless opinion poll.
    Generally the degree to which someone thinks a poll is pointless is in direct proportion to their dislike of the numbers.
    Oh, come off it, Mike. You have been trotting out that line for years. To question the accuracy of any poll is a perfectly valid thing to do and need not be the result of any personal bias. For goodness sake, polls are polls not gospel. You may recall telling us in stentorian tones that it was impossible, not hard to foresee but impossible, for Cameron to get a majority unless he was ten point something ahead in the opinion polls.

    The opinion polls before the last GE were, on the whole, well, shall we say, not terribly accurate when it came to the actual result. Then we have the issue that during the early part of the year two groups of pollsters were reporting mutually incompatible trends and we had a polling company who refused to release a poll because "it didn't feel right", it just turned out that it was accurate.

    Given all that we have learned about the polls this year being sceptical about their findings seems to be a matter of common sense.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    According to wiki, either dominatrixes or dominatrices:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominatrix

    Just touching up that ad for the local are we? :D
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    It ought to be, Mr. Eagles, no idea whether that's the case in common parlance.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Bit mean of them to call Corbyn 'acting leader of the Labour Party'. I don't think he'll last til the election either but no need to rub it in

    Maybe they mean "acting" as in "pretending"?

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12004756/Paris-attacks-Abdelhamid-Abaaoud-police-France-terrorist-Islamic-State-flight-live.html#update-20151119-1444
    At least two of the terrorists involved in last Friday’s terrorist attacks in Paris took the migrant route, according to French reports, intensifying fears that terrorists are passing themselves off as would-be refugees, writes Henry Samuel.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    I think it is, but have never seen a ?collective Noun? of them to ask.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Miss Plato, Merkel's migration diktat was as cunning as Baldrick's plan to solve the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,785

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    In mathematics the plural of matrix is usually matrices (although strictly it can be either I believe). Not sure if that helps. (Or how sad that makes me look but heh...)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774

    Don't we all, Big John, but even if the results are good for Mrs. Free (as I pray they will be) they will not be for some other poor sod. Her point on striking doctors is powerful and valid, and the doctors do seem to me more concerned with their wallets than their patients.

    I honestly dont think they are but I heard them say the wanted to go to ACAS straight away to negotiate a compromise. I hope Mr Hunt bites their hand off and reaches a settlement. If not lots of them will not be prepared to stay in the NHS system anyway.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The Telegraph coverage on that linky is mind boggling - well worth a looksee.

    Miss Plato, Merkel's migration diktat was as cunning as Baldrick's plan to solve the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    RobD said:

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    According to wiki, either dominatrixes or dominatrices:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominatrix

    Just touching up that ad for the local are we? :D
    No. Just writing Sunday's thread.

    My phone keeps on changing Dominatrices into Dominatrixes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,881
    There's a pattern of Labour being 4-10% behind the Conservatives in polling. And, that seems to be borne out in local by-elections.

    That's not good for the main opposition, at this stage of the Parliament.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That is a link I will never be able to unthink :smiley:
    Lennon said:

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    In mathematics the plural of matrix is usually matrices (although strictly it can be either I believe). Not sure if that helps. (Or how sad that makes me look but heh...)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TSE - a man cannot serve two masters. I'm unclear whether that extends to mistresses though.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,774

    watford30 said:

    felix said:

    @SebastianEPayne: Exclusive polling from @JamesDMorris: 67% have no idea what Jeremy Corbyn is saying https://t.co/IymLvveuPp https://t.co/YI3eMWbEtn

    It is better to be incoherently the most popular leader like Jezza or Coherent but least popular like Dave
    Either you really are as thick as a docker's sandwich or you don't get how polling is meant to work 6 months after a GE in the midst of continued austerity. If you really think Corbyn or Labour could get anywhere near those levels in a GE you must have been the one advising NPXMP about his prospects in Broxtowe last May.
    If you're ever wondering why the 'Envy of the World' is in the red, take a moment to remember that it's financially 'managed' by ding dongs like Owls.
    Actually as usual you talk complete testicles. The fact you have become my new stalker is amusing though. I have been missing my previous ones The Watcher and N4E

    98% of Acute Trusts are now in deficit, Compared to 0% in 2010.

    That is not down to 98% of DOFs suddenly becoming incompetent.

    Neither is the reason my own Acute hospital is now in £3m deficit compared to £8m surplus when i left down to my brilliance.

    Only a ding dong would think so in fact.
    I'm still here!

    Hope that all is well with Mrs BJO, similarly best wishes to Cyclefree
    Glad your back.

    Mrs BJ has an operation in 2 weeks hopefully.

    80% improvement is best case.

    Until then I am getting much needed exercise by taking her everywhere in a wheelhair
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144
    Cameron has the highest satisfaction rating while Corbyn has a higher net figure but still a net dissatisfaction rating. The Tory lead of 7% means there has been a 0.25% swing to the Tories since the election
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @benjaminhaddad: Since the attacks, 3 times as more young French are enlisting in the army. "Unprecedented".
    https://t.co/Qa7pzHW5Zt
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    IIRC something similar happened in the US after 911
    Scott_P said:

    @benjaminhaddad: Since the attacks, 3 times as more young French are enlisting in the army. "Unprecedented".
    https://t.co/Qa7pzHW5Zt

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741

    TSE - a man cannot serve two masters. I'm unclear whether that extends to mistresses though.

    We're going to find out.

    Is a follow up to my summer thread

    Instead on May the 7th the Lib Dems ended up playing the role of Anastasia Steele to the electorate’s Christian Grey.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/06/25/this-mornings-must-read/
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,959
    HYUFD said:

    Cameron has the highest satisfaction rating while Corbyn has a higher net figure but still a net dissatisfaction rating. The Tory lead of 7% means there has been a 0.25% swing to the Tories since the election

    Well within MoE ;-)
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,959
    Sean_F said:

    There's a pattern of Labour being 4-10% behind the Conservatives in polling. And, that seems to be borne out in local by-elections.

    That's not good for the main opposition, at this stage of the Parliament.

    Doesn't the winning party usually get a bit of a boost immediately after a GE?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Con 41
    Lab 34

    How many seats would that leave Labour?

    More than they deserve at present
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Ipsos Mori:

    Nov 2010: Con 36 Lab 39
    Nov 2015: Con 41 Lab 34
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,881

    TSE - a man cannot serve two masters. I'm unclear whether that extends to mistresses though.

    Not that I know anything about such things, but that's presumably part of the appeal, from the Sub's point of view.

    Each mistress punishes him for serving the other. Therefore, he can never escape punishment.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:



    Naziism didn't die when Berlin was taken Nick.

    But it helped.

    Quite. I'm not totally convinced of the efficacy of air strikes, it seems like it would take a lot more to succeed even in Syria and even if it is possible for the world to do a lot mor ein theory, in political terms there does not appear to be the will or public support for the extremes necessary, but the 'this doesn't solve everything, so we might as well do nothing' type argument is an ancient political tactic. It's used sincerely, sometimes peopel feel, quite rightly, that no action is better than a bad action, but it's also used as an excuse to not try something which might be a good thing, even if it has some negative consequences.

    Most often used with oppositions of all stripes - 'I've found an example of someone negatively affected by the government proposal, therefore it must be terrible and must not happen' regardless of any wider merits or necessitities behind the proposals.
    Yes, true. I'd actually favour a coherent international effort to drive ISIS out in Syria, which now seems to be possibly on the cards - a Western-Russian alliance would be an interesting development and I don't think China (which has its own issues with Islamists) would veto it. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that it will solve the problem, merely help it.

    But IMO we need to park the issue of what happens to Assad for discussion afterwards - a general statement about the need for free elections when circumstances allow would do while the immediate issue is addressed.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Lennon said:

    I've had a brain fart and need the wisdom of PB.

    The plural of dominatrix is dominatrices?

    Asking for a friend.

    In mathematics the plural of matrix is usually matrices (although strictly it can be either I believe). Not sure if that helps. (Or how sad that makes me look but heh...)
    The plural of dominatrix is double trouble
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098


    Don't we all, Big John, but even if the results are good for Mrs. Free (as I pray they will be) they will not be for some other poor sod. Her point on striking doctors is powerful and valid, and the doctors do seem to me more concerned with their wallets than their patients.

    I honestly dont think they are but I heard them say the wanted to go to ACAS straight away to negotiate a compromise. I hope Mr Hunt bites their hand off and reaches a settlement. If not lots of them will not be prepared to stay in the NHS system anyway.

    We shall see, Mr, Owls, we shall see. My personal view is that all doctors trained at public expense should be required to spend n years working in the NHS, where the value of n depends on the grade of their training (e.g say 6 years for newly qualified, 4 years for a registrar/GP and so on). Anyone who wants to bail out early can but they then have to pay back the money the taxpayer invested in them*.

    As for doctors who strike, in my view they are self-evidently unfit to practice and should be struck-off the medical register forthwith and billed for all the money spent on their training*.

    My best wishes, hopes and prayers go to Mrs Owls, and yourself, for a successful op and a speedy recovery, unimpeded by selfish buggers striking for more money.

    * Obviously, such measures cannot be imposed retrospectively, but any medical student joining or anyone joining a course of training should be made to sign up.
  • Steven_WhaleySteven_Whaley Posts: 313
    Jonathan said:

    They should measure

    1) Satisfied

    2) Dissatisfied

    3) Don't give the remotest hint of a toss*

    *it's four years from an election and who is the Tim Farron guy anyway.

    Exactly so. Creating net figures from the dissatisfied and satisfied is a curious mathematical exercise but it completely fails to measure anything useful. The three items on your list are the things worth knowing - netting merely hides the information.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Eagles, bah.

    Most BDSM works the other way around.

    In line with my firm commitment to diversity, inclusion, and political correctness, a dominatrix has a substantial secondary role in Sir Edric's Kingdom. [For those wondering, Temple and Treasure are still on course for early 2016, huzzah!].
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JamieRoss7: UKIP MEP David Coburn says women are "a special sort of a man". Via @HolyroodLiam. #CoburnGonnaCoburn https://t.co/uMKepoHkZS
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 19
    Adams 'Rib to be precise?
    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: UKIP MEP David Coburn says women are "a special sort of a man". Via @HolyroodLiam. #CoburnGonnaCoburn https://t.co/uMKepoHkZS

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: UKIP MEP David Coburn says women are "a special sort of a man". Via @HolyroodLiam. #CoburnGonnaCoburn https://t.co/uMKepoHkZS

    Is he in Bangkok?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited 2015 19

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:



    Naziism didn't die when Berlin was taken Nick.

    But it helped.

    Quite. I'm not totally convinced of the efficacy of air strikes, it seems like it would take a lot more to succeed even in Syria and even if it is possible for the world to do a lot mor ein theory, in political terms there does not appear to be the will or public support for the extremes necessary, but the 'this doesn't solve everything, so we might as well do nothing' type argument is an ancient political tactic. It's used sincerely, sometimes peopel feel, quite rightly, that no action is better than a bad action, but it's also used as an excuse to not try something which might be a good thing, even if it has some negative consequences.

    Most often used with oppositions of all stripes - 'I've found an example of someone negatively affected by the government proposal, therefore it must be terrible and must not happen' regardless of any wider merits or necessitities behind the proposals.
    Yes, true. I'd actually favour a coherent international effort to drive ISIS out in Syria, which now seems to be possibly on the cards - a Western-Russian alliance would be an interesting development and I don't think China (which has its own issues with Islamists) would veto it. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that it will solve the problem, merely help it.

    But IMO we need to park the issue of what happens to Assad for discussion afterwards - a general statement about the need for free elections when circumstances allow would do while the immediate issue is addressed.
    What about Turkey and the Kurds? The Kurds have most of the boots on the ground fighting ISIS yet are being bombed by the Turks and are terrorists (as are other factions) where the US is concerned.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 19

    Scott_P said:

    @JamieRoss7: UKIP MEP David Coburn says women are "a special sort of a man". Via @HolyroodLiam. #CoburnGonnaCoburn https://t.co/uMKepoHkZS

    Is he in Bangkok?
    He'll notice their very big, err, hands in a short while.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Sean_F said:

    TSE - a man cannot serve two masters. I'm unclear whether that extends to mistresses though.

    Not that I know anything about such things, but that's presumably part of the appeal, from the Sub's point of view.

    Each mistress punishes him for serving the other. Therefore, he can never escape punishment.
    I understand that some people pay good money for that sort of thing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,144

    HYUFD said:

    Cameron has the highest satisfaction rating while Corbyn has a higher net figure but still a net dissatisfaction rating. The Tory lead of 7% means there has been a 0.25% swing to the Tories since the election

    Well within MoE ;-)
    Nonetheless Labour still miles from government
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:



    Naziism didn't die when Berlin was taken Nick.

    But it helped.

    Quite. I'm not totally convinced of the efficacy of air strikes, it seems like it would take a lot more to succeed even in Syria and even if it is possible for the world to do a lot mor ein theory, in political terms there does not appear to be the will or public support for the extremes necessary, but the 'this doesn't solve everything, so we might as well do nothing' type argument is an ancient political tactic. It's used sincerely, sometimes peopel feel, quite rightly, that no action is better than a bad action, but it's also used as an excuse to not try something which might be a good thing, even if it has some negative consequences.

    Most often used with oppositions of all stripes - 'I've found an example of someone negatively affected by the government proposal, therefore it must be terrible and must not happen' regardless of any wider merits or necessitities behind the proposals.
    Yes, true. I'd actually favour a coherent international effort to drive ISIS out in Syria, which now seems to be possibly on the cards - a Western-Russian alliance would be an interesting development and I don't think China (which has its own issues with Islamists) would veto it. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that it will solve the problem, merely help it.

    But IMO we need to park the issue of what happens to Assad for discussion afterwards - a general statement about the need for free elections when circumstances allow would do while the immediate issue is addressed.
    Wishful thinking all round there, Dr. Palmer. ISIS needs to be destroyed not just driven out of Syria. Assad is doe not stand on his own, there are thousands, probably tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands in his camp and who look to him for protection - those people will not be fobbed off (just look at what happened in Iraq).

    Before free elections could take place in Syria there would have to be a rebuilding of civil society. That will take years and cost billions. Presumably our government, will be happy to divert the lion's share of the aid budget for a few years (HMG was after all in the forefront of formenting the unrest that led to the present disaster).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    chestnut said:

    Ipsos Mori:

    Nov 2010: Con 36 Lab 39
    Nov 2015: Con 41 Lab 34

    Be interesting to see whether across the Parliament, this continues to track as Corbyn being worth a 5% swing to the Tories....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,741
    edited 2015 19
    If I ever became a politician I fear I'd make more gaffes than David Coburn and Boris combined.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Eagles, bah.

    Most BDSM works the other way around.

    In line with my firm commitment to diversity, inclusion, and political correctness, a dominatrix has a substantial secondary role in Sir Edric's Kingdom. [For those wondering, Temple and Treasure are still on course for early 2016, huzzah!].

    I always thought that Lysander would come into her own. From the moment Sir Edric slapped her bottom I thought that lady (elf) is going to have proper revenge.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/18/antibiotics-overprescribed-winter-deprivation/viewgallery/621523

    Shame on our GPs for being unable to say "No" to antibiotic requests for the common cold.
    There was a report on Radio 4 this morning which said that one of the problems was the routine use of antibiotics for animals, not to cure disease but to enhance growth. I don't know what the relative importance of that is by comparison with over-prescription by GPs.

    It's utter, complete and total bollocks. Sorry to be so crude.

    Put modestly, I'm one of the leading specialists in the veterinary medicine industry (from the financial services perspective) globally - if you ask your team they would acknowledge that.

    Antibiotics are not used routinely in Europe - they are banned as growth promoters. And they are restricted in the US to therapeutic use under veterinary prescription only.

    There is no solid evidence of cross-species resistance, in any event, and the strict enforcement of MRLs means there is little transfer into the human food chain.

    It's garbage put out by people (yes Barbara Boxer, I mean you) with an agenda and oodles of funding from PETA
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237


    Don't we all, Big John, but even if the results are good for Mrs. Free (as I pray they will be) they will not be for some other poor sod. Her point on striking doctors is powerful and valid, and the doctors do seem to me more concerned with their wallets than their patients.

    I honestly dont think they are but I heard them say the wanted to go to ACAS straight away to negotiate a compromise. I hope Mr Hunt bites their hand off and reaches a settlement. If not lots of them will not be prepared to stay in the NHS system anyway.
    We shall see, Mr, Owls, we shall see. My personal view is that all doctors trained at public expense should be required to spend n years working in the NHS, where the value of n depends on the grade of their training (e.g say 6 years for newly qualified, 4 years for a registrar/GP and so on). Anyone who wants to bail out early can but they then have to pay back the money the taxpayer invested in them*.

    As for doctors who strike, in my view they are self-evidently unfit to practice and should be struck-off the medical register forthwith and billed for all the money spent on their training*.

    My best wishes, hopes and prayers go to Mrs Owls, and yourself, for a successful op and a speedy recovery, unimpeded by selfish buggers striking for more money.

    * Obviously, such measures cannot be imposed retrospectively, but any medical student joining or anyone joining a course of training should be made to sign up.

    I don't see where this "doctors are trained at vast public expense comes from". They pay their own tuition fees which are considerably higher than a normal university degree and then get paid a salary for doing a job of work. If you're saying that training is part of that payment then surely it means that they're being paid even less for doing their job.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    edited 2015 19
    Before the last election I speculated several times that the Labour vote might become less efficient and the Tory vote more efficient for a variety of reasons. I like to mention this from time to time because it is one of the few things I actually got right.

    I am not sure that there is any reason to suppose that that process has stopped. I can certainly see Mr Corbyn doing relatively well in already very safe inner city seats, especially in London, and, to be kind, rather less well in Midland and eastern marginals.

    One of the reasons so few foresaw a Tory majority was because they failed to appreciate that Cameron was winning votes where it mattered (having foreseen this I have even less excuse than most). Again, I can see that trend continuing unless Labour come to their senses. In short I suspect that the models in which universal swing is applied to these percentages will be as inaccurate as they were at the election and understate the Tory performance.

    All of which is a typically longwinded way of suggesting that the idea that Labour might get 230 or so seats even on the current boundaries and with the current number of seats is really wildly optimistic.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''They pay their own tuition fees which are considerably higher than a normal university degree and then get paid a salary for doing a job of work. ''

    True but do even these substantially higher tuition fees cover the full cost of medical training? or are these students subsidised by taxpayers?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Llama, 'tis not Lysandra (although she does have a similarly fairly large secondary role).
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/18/antibiotics-overprescribed-winter-deprivation/viewgallery/621523

    Shame on our GPs for being unable to say "No" to antibiotic requests for the common cold.
    There was a report on Radio 4 this morning which said that one of the problems was the routine use of antibiotics for animals, not to cure disease but to enhance growth. I don't know what the relative importance of that is by comparison with over-prescription by GPs.

    It's utter, complete and total bollocks. Sorry to be so crude.

    Put modestly, I'm one of the leading specialists in the veterinary medicine industry (from the financial services perspective) globally - if you ask your team they would acknowledge that.

    Antibiotics are not used routinely in Europe - they are banned as growth promoters. And they are restricted in the US to therapeutic use under veterinary prescription only.

    There is no solid evidence of cross-species resistance, in any event, and the strict enforcement of MRLs means there is little transfer into the human food chain.

    It's garbage put out by people (yes Barbara Boxer, I mean you) with an agenda and oodles of funding from PETA
    In Europe no doubt standards are high. You may have missed this article from today's Telegraph:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/12004008/E.coli-has-developed-resistance-to-last-line-of-antibiotics-warn-scientists.html

    It speaks of rather different standards being applied elsewhere and what appears to be a worrying development a as a result.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    0_o

    I worry my daughters will be groomed by ISIS and lured to Syria, warns Labour's London Mayor candidate Sadiq Khan

    More must be done to prevent children accessing extremist material online
    Admits he grew up with people who went on to 'act' on terrible views
    Warns British Muslims have a 'special role' to 'root out' extremists
    Distances himself from Corbyn's warning about police shooting terrorists
    Insists British Muslim women and girls should be free not to wear the veil


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325538/I-worry-daughters-groomed-ISIS-lured-Syria-warns-Labour-s-candidate-London-Mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html#ixzz3rxGh5Rcl
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    If he had not indoctrinated his children into Islam, they would not be at risk of joining the Islamist cause.

    If there is one parental law this country needs, it is one to prevent the child abuse of parents indoctrinating their children into the belief in any sort of sky faeries.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,831
    Floater said:

    Con 41
    Lab 34

    How many seats would that leave Labour?

    More than they deserve at present
    Don't forget that a Corbyn-led GE campaign would be absolutely blasted by Tories and media. They are holding back at present. Day and night barrage about risk to the nation etc etc. Never mind the process of writing the Labour manifesto!

    I suspect that 34 will look positively heroic by May 2020.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I've just seen a website that suggests US medical degree courses are between USD70,000 and USD 90,000 a year for overseas students.
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    edited 2015 19
    TOPPING said:



    On the NHS the internal market is an important part of the service to a lesser or greater degree; public sector wage demands should either be accommodated or moderated.

    What wage demands are these then?

    Since 2008 the band 5 salary (which is a registered nurse or pharmacy technician) has increased 7.9% from £26,123 to £28,180. In that time the CPI has increased 19.0% so a real terms pay cut of 11%. Additionally pension contributions have gone up from 6% to 9.3%.

    The only public sector workers who have had a real terms pay rise in the last few years are MPs.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited 2015 19

    If I ever became a politician I fear I'd make more gaffes than David Coburn and Boris combined.

    I don't think it would be possible to outgaff David Coburn.

    The man makes Labour look competent. Literally, he gaffes every time he opens his mouth.

    Having said that, Kezia Dugdale does seem determined to give him a run for his taxpayers money.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Off topic, this seems to be a far bigger threat to us than ISIS:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

    http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/18/antibiotics-overprescribed-winter-deprivation/viewgallery/621523

    Shame on our GPs for being unable to say "No" to antibiotic requests for the common cold.
    There was a report on Radio 4 this morning which said that one of the problems was the routine use of antibiotics for animals, not to cure disease but to enhance growth. I don't know what the relative importance of that is by comparison with over-prescription by GPs.

    It's utter, complete and total bollocks. Sorry to be so crude.

    Put modestly, I'm one of the leading specialists in the veterinary medicine industry (from the financial services perspective) globally - if you ask your team they would acknowledge that.

    Antibiotics are not used routinely in Europe - they are banned as growth promoters. And they are restricted in the US to therapeutic use under veterinary prescription only.

    There is no solid evidence of cross-species resistance, in any event, and the strict enforcement of MRLs means there is little transfer into the human food chain.

    It's garbage put out by people (yes Barbara Boxer, I mean you) with an agenda and oodles of funding from PETA
    Thank you. I don't know whether the lady speaking this morning was this Boxer woman. I only caught the end of it. Anyway, thanks for putting me right.

    It's nonetheless worrying if we're not developing new antibiotics. Why is that? (O Wise One)
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    taffys said:

    ''They pay their own tuition fees which are considerably higher than a normal university degree and then get paid a salary for doing a job of work. ''

    True but do even these substantially higher tuition fees cover the full cost of medical training? or are these students subsidised by taxpayers?

    In no way different from the way all students are subsidised by taxpayers still.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Chris_A said:

    TOPPING said:



    On the NHS the internal market is an important part of the service to a lesser or greater degree; public sector wage demands should either be accommodated or moderated.

    What wage demands are these then?

    Since 2008 the band 5 salary (which is a registered nurse or pharmacy technician) has increased 7.9% from £26,123 to £28,180. In that time the CPI has increased 19.0% so a real terms pay cut of 11%. Additionally pension contributions have gone up from 6% to 9.3%.

    The only public sector workers who have had a real terms pay rise in the last few years are MPs.
    Taxpayers in the Private Sector have faced similar wage restraints. Welcome to reality.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Chris_A said:



    I don't see where this "doctors are trained at vast public expense comes from". They pay their own tuition fees which are considerably higher than a normal university degree and then get paid a salary for doing a job of work. If you're saying that training is part of that payment then surely it means that they're being paid even less for doing their job.

    I read various estimates of the cost to put a student through medical school, one of the lowest is £500,000. How much to medical students pay?

    Oh, incidentally I don't think I used the word "vast" as in "vast public expense", that seem sto have been your own addition. Not really on to make up quotes, Old Chap, makes one look stupid.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Dair said:

    0_o

    I worry my daughters will be groomed by ISIS and lured to Syria, warns Labour's London Mayor candidate Sadiq Khan

    More must be done to prevent children accessing extremist material online
    Admits he grew up with people who went on to 'act' on terrible views
    Warns British Muslims have a 'special role' to 'root out' extremists
    Distances himself from Corbyn's warning about police shooting terrorists
    Insists British Muslim women and girls should be free not to wear the veil


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325538/I-worry-daughters-groomed-ISIS-lured-Syria-warns-Labour-s-candidate-London-Mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html#ixzz3rxGh5Rcl
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    If he had not indoctrinated his children into Islam, they would not be at risk of joining the Islamist cause.

    If there is one parental law this country needs, it is one to prevent the child abuse of parents indoctrinating their children into the belief in any sort of sky faeries.

    I do not get the impression that Sadiq Khan is the type who indoctrinates his children into Islam. From his appearance he does not come across as a doctrinaire Muslim. He probably prays the two Eid prayers in his local mosque. But that is more of a social thing than strictly religious. It's like someone who is not a regular church-goer but attends the Christmas mass.

    He almost certainly will tell his children that they are Muslims just like 70% of this country says they are Christians but hardly ever goes to Church.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    Dair said:

    0_o

    I worry my daughters will be groomed by ISIS and lured to Syria, warns Labour's London Mayor candidate Sadiq Khan

    More must be done to prevent children accessing extremist material online
    Admits he grew up with people who went on to 'act' on terrible views
    Warns British Muslims have a 'special role' to 'root out' extremists
    Distances himself from Corbyn's warning about police shooting terrorists
    Insists British Muslim women and girls should be free not to wear the veil


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325538/I-worry-daughters-groomed-ISIS-lured-Syria-warns-Labour-s-candidate-London-Mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html#ixzz3rxGh5Rcl
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    If he had not indoctrinated his children into Islam, they would not be at risk of joining the Islamist cause.

    If there is one parental law this country needs, it is one to prevent the child abuse of parents indoctrinating their children into the belief in any sort of sky faeries.

    I think quite a lot of those who are radicalised are not at all religious and, so, not understanding their faith properly are therefore more inclined to believe whatever poisonous rubbish is pumped out to them. I'm sure that somewhere I read that two of the most common places where people are radicalised are on the internet and in prison. These are not normally the places where people learn about religion (and, yes, I know that there are radical mosques).
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited 2015 19
    In no way different from the way all students are subsidised by taxpayers still.

    True but no other student group is striking to screw more money out of the taxpayer.
This discussion has been closed.