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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Nick Palmer: Why Angela Merkel is going to remain as German

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Comments

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Pulpstar said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    Who uses these 'big consultancies' btw - always been a mystery to me...
    HMRC probably.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Mr. Cide, snitched?

    Morris Dancer is a fearless warrior for justice, truth, and writing comedy coming out early 2016!

    Morris Dancer does not fear an obese lecher from the icy wastes of the north.

    Do you deny snitching? You've exposed a man who was doing very nicely without attracting much in the way of opprobrium from those of a particular hue who matter.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Q:How do u feel about working with Ken Livingstone ? Maria Eagle: I'm sanguine about it

    It seems the Shadow Front Bench are willing to put up with any amount of humiliation as long as they keep their well paid jobs.
    Are shadow ministers paid anything other than their salaries as MPs? I didn't think they were.
    Leader of Opposition and the Chief Whip only.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Danny

    "The problem is the Labour "moderates" have not picked their battles: they've been screaming bloody murder about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that Corbyn has done, to such an extent that when they do have a point (as they do this week with his comments about terrorism), the rank-and-file dismiss it as just the usual suspects moaning like always".

    It's not just the moderates who are pissed off. To use a football analogy he's the centre forward the crowd have been clamouring for and he's just missed his fifth open goal.

    It doesn't matter too much what he stands for but at a time like this when he should be scoring at will he isn't doing. In fact it isn't even clear he knows where the goal is.

    The party is desperately in need of a leader
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    PACAC ‏@CommonsPACAC 2m2 minutes ago
    Our #kidscompany inquiry continues tomorrow at 9.40. Witnesses include @OliverLetwinMP & @timloughton http://goo.gl/GM4sAl

    On a more mundane matter the Kids Company inquiry continues.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Q:How do u feel about working with Ken Livingstone ? Maria Eagle: I'm sanguine about it

    It seems the Shadow Front Bench are willing to put up with any amount of humiliation as long as they keep their well paid jobs.
    Are shadow ministers paid anything other than their salaries as MPs? I didn't think they were.
    No - but they get access to funds to help with research etc - which helps them feel more important
    Thank you, Mr. Simon. In that case, assuming they are not fiddling the research money for personal profit (probably quite a big assumption), it is difficult to see why anyone with an ounce of self-respect would put up with the sort of humiliation that has been heaped upon La Eagle.

    From a voter perspective if a person cannot stand up for themselves what chance is there that they will stand up for others.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Q:How do u feel about working with Ken Livingstone ? Maria Eagle: I'm sanguine about it

    It seems the Shadow Front Bench are willing to put up with any amount of humiliation as long as they keep their well paid jobs.
    Are shadow ministers paid anything other than their salaries as MPs? I didn't think they were.
    Leader of Opposition and the Chief Whip only.
    Chief whip ? Is she actually doing anything?
    Armstrong set the ball rolling downhill the moment she accepted the job.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Dr. Spyn, one can't help feeling that if Letwin's political career had been in the Roman Republic he would've been crucified decades ago.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    My friends who worked at Anderson Consulting in the mid 1990s on the big Inland Revenue job in Newcastle used to have a scam. Every week they would buy fully flexible First Class tickets from London to Newcastle, and then either travel on saver tickets, or stay in Newcastle. Given these tickets were £250+, it was £1,000/month tax free.

    Of course, it was also effectively theft.
    Isn't that effectively what accountants do?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @KitCollins: Ken Livingstone's comments were "completely out of order", "uncalled for and unacceptable" @CarolineFlintMP #bbcpm
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Scott_P said:

    @KitCollins: Ken Livingstone's comments were "completely out of order", "uncalled for and unacceptable" @CarolineFlintMP #bbcpm

    'But being a jellyfish, I won't do anything about it other than whine to the media'.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years
    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    MikeK said:

    Nick P has spoken.
    We can expect an unfavourable turn in Merkels fortunes in the very near future.

    How many kipper MP's did you predict? It doesn't really put you in a position to mock does it?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Arf.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    My friends who worked at Anderson Consulting in the mid 1990s on the big Inland Revenue job in Newcastle used to have a scam. Every week they would buy fully flexible First Class tickets from London to Newcastle, and then either travel on saver tickets, or stay in Newcastle. Given these tickets were £250+, it was £1,000/month tax free.

    Of course, it was also effectively theft.
    Isn't that effectively what accountants do?
    No. As Robert says it is theft. No Accountant would touch it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    My friends who worked at Anderson Consulting in the mid 1990s on the big Inland Revenue job in Newcastle used to have a scam. Every week they would buy fully flexible First Class tickets from London to Newcastle, and then either travel on saver tickets, or stay in Newcastle. Given these tickets were £250+, it was £1,000/month tax free.

    Of course, it was also effectively theft.
    That's quite shameful. And of course illegal.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184
    Scott_P said:

    @KitCollins: Ken Livingstone's comments were "completely out of order", "uncalled for and unacceptable" @CarolineFlintMP #bbcpm

    It's Mr Livingstone's appointment as minder that has really wound me up to a degree that amazes me, but his crass comments on the back of remarks about it are really no better than the way the appointment was made.

    Their politics are one thing. Some agree and some don't. That's fair enough.

    But if these staunch Labour-man-and-boy type leaders are coming out with insulting remarks and actions like these, with no regard to what is right & proper, what the hell sort of line have they & the Trades Unions been pedalling all these years? Who was it aimed at? Just the plebs outside their own inner circle?

    Can't they see how their own behaviour - their behaviour, not their politics - is bringing the whole Labour/TU movement into disrepute?
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    My friends who worked at Anderson Consulting in the mid 1990s on the big Inland Revenue job in Newcastle used to have a scam. Every week they would buy fully flexible First Class tickets from London to Newcastle, and then either travel on saver tickets, or stay in Newcastle. Given these tickets were £250+, it was £1,000/month tax free.

    Of course, it was also effectively theft.
    Just work on a monthly contract, and renew it each month.

    Sorted.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    AnneJGP said:

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?

    Perhaps Abbot was distracted - still finishing some Christmas cards at the same time?

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Ex backbench MP, Ms Abbott now enjoys the full backing of the party leader and is his biggest cheerleader. – She’s probably getting her own back on all the little people whom ignored her for the past decade.

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    AnneJGP said:

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?
    Nick Palmer will be along shortly to tell us that he's 'perfectly relaxed about this kind of simple mistake', and everyone's friends.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    She's carrying on as if she's a charmed life. All those miles in East Germany it appears.

    Ex backbench MP, Ms Abbott now enjoys the full backing of the party leader and is his biggest cheerleader. – She’s probably getting her own back on all the little people whom ignored her for the past decade.

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM

    LOOK, SQUIRREL!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184

    Ex backbench MP, Ms Abbott now enjoys the full backing of the party leader and is his biggest cheerleader. – She’s probably getting her own back on all the little people whom ignored her for the past decade.

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Ah, now that may well be correct - especially if the Ed/David mix-up was a standing joke amongst the PLP.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @owenjbennett: Ex Shad Cab min tells @paulwaugh "Ken's position is untenable."
    https://t.co/6MOUw1hxZW

    So, he's nailed on then.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    So, how was today in the World of Trident?

    I'm amazed about how many people waste their times on such obscure issues and making a fuss about it, either for or against.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's a very dull squirrel too. I really can't see what huge hoopla this is.
    watford30 said:

    Scott_P said:

    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM

    LOOK, SQUIRREL!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    @owenjbennett: Ex Shad Cab min tells @paulwaugh "Ken's position is untenable."
    https://t.co/6MOUw1hxZW

    So, he's nailed on then.

    So, Ken remains.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:



    I'm a contractor (as you may have gathered)
    I've no issue with HMRC/Gov changing the rules and closing down loopholes. The travel/subsistance and dividend changes announced at the last budget for example are all fine.

    This isn't going to result in me paying more tax. It will likely result in me paying no tax until I can find a FTE job on a salary that results in less tax.

    It is about the flexible contractor market evaporating.

    My company structure is there to afford me some protection for when i'm out of work or ill. I have to cover my own pension, sick-pay, holiday pay, insurance, accountancy and so on. It isn't a wheeze to get out of tax.

    By refusing to engage in any debate beyond ya-boo-pay-up-you-tax-dodger, you show yourself up as ignorant and would be best placed to STFU.

    For many contractors the T&S changes by itself will destroy contracting for them.

    Given that I compete with the big consultancies why should their consultant be allowed to claim train travel and hotels when spending Monday to Friday at a remote client while I am refused the ability to reclaim those expenses.
    There is a worrying trend in the governments legislative bent in closing down tax avoidance avenues which are all focused on going after personal-level tax avoidance whilst opening up further avenues for institutional tax avoidance that has the effect of giving multi-nationals further advantages over local individuals.
    I would say it is no accident.

    I wonder if the big consultancies still charge for travel and hotels whilst failing to tell the client about the rebate they will receive.
    My friends who worked at Anderson Consulting in the mid 1990s on the big Inland Revenue job in Newcastle used to have a scam. Every week they would buy fully flexible First Class tickets from London to Newcastle, and then either travel on saver tickets, or stay in Newcastle. Given these tickets were £250+, it was £1,000/month tax free.

    Of course, it was also effectively theft.
    Isn't that effectively what accountants do?
    No. As Robert says it is theft. No Accountant would touch it.
    I was being "political" with what constitutes "theft"
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    AnneJGP said:

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?

    Perhaps Abbot was distracted - still finishing some Christmas cards at the same time?

    Eating them, maybe,
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    AnneJGP said:

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?

    Perhaps Abbot was distracted - still finishing some Christmas cards at the same time?

    Does she send them to her constituents?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Scott_P said:

    @owenjbennett: Ex Shad Cab min tells @paulwaugh "Ken's position is untenable."
    https://t.co/6MOUw1hxZW

    So, he's nailed on then.

    The channel 4 docudrama about this period in Labour's history is going to be good fun. It won't even have to be a satire to be funny.
    As five act plays go I guess we are pretty much well into act 2 now.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    edited 2015 18
    Lords debate re votes at 16 in the EU referendum going very badly for the Govt - big defeat looks likely.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Burying that bad news....

    Is it a good day to bury bad news?

    Yeah, Corbyn's still there...
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Scott_P said:

    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM

    There is also the small matter of a state of emergency in France.
    And that's before we get to discussing how Obama has finally gotten to the end of his string of ineffectiveness after 7years.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 18
    Scott_P said:

    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM

    That's what you get if you have a programme whose staff is made up of pretty much 99% former Guardian employees. So much for diversity.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    Lords Division now on votes at 16 in EU ref.

    Result in 15mins.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Peers voting. Not content sounded louder, but the contents may already be in the lobby ;)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    Not going to change my opinion that there is the need for a UN resolution for political cover in any middle eastern military operations to deny islamists of the religious war card.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 18

    AnneJGP said:

    How can she get them confused? They look almost nothing alike, do different jobs and she's known both for years

    Scott_P said:

    @estellehart: Diane Abbot on PM talking about Angela Eagle's defence role, wrong sister Diane

    Has to be a calculated insult, is my guess.

    What's going on here? What's the sub-text to all this?

    Perhaps Abbot was distracted - still finishing some Christmas cards at the same time?

    Does she send them to her constituents?
    They're all for Jezzer, complete with lipstick kisses.

    'Happy Christmas, remember Potsdam? XXX'.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Hollande and Ban Ki-moon have discussed the 'rapid' adoption of a UN resolution against terrorism, according to the French president's office.
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    Not going to change my opinion that there is the need for a UN resolution for political cover in any middle eastern military operations to deny islamists of the religious war card.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    BREAKING: Abdelhamid Abaaoud has been killed, senior intelligence officials state
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Hollande and Ban Ki-moon have discussed the 'rapid' adoption of a UN resolution against terrorism, according to the French president's office.
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    Not going to change my opinion that there is the need for a UN resolution for political cover in any middle eastern military operations to deny islamists of the religious war card.


    Which I will fully support once it is adopted.
    If Cameron doesn't want a UN resolution there is nothing to stop France from obtaining one.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184
    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    What we are seeing from Mssrs Corbyn & Livingstone suggest strongly that their politics never really included a desire for that emancipation to start with.

    Neither of them have shifted their views by an inch in 30 years. What they're showing us now are their true colours.

    No wonder they've no problem with segregated audiences. As we see, it chimes with their real views nicely.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 18
    Lomu always said that his disease meant he only ever performed at 80% of his potential.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34859301

    I can't even imagine what a 100% Lomu would have been like. They would have had to give the other team 20 players to try and even it up.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    I doubt they intend to leave a middle.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184
    Speedy said:

    Hollande and Ban Ki-moon have discussed the 'rapid' adoption of a UN resolution against terrorism, according to the French president's office.
    Speedy said:

    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    Not going to change my opinion that there is the need for a UN resolution for political cover in any middle eastern military operations to deny islamists of the religious war card.
    Which I will fully support once it is adopted.
    If Cameron doesn't want a UN resolution there is nothing to stop France from obtaining one.

    For France to take the lead, surely?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 18

    BREAKING: Abdelhamid Abaaoud has been killed, senior intelligence officials state

    I am sure Jezza will be along to tell us that was totally the wrong thing. That they should have tried harder to reason with him to give himself up.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited 2015 18
    "We cannot outsource our interests to a Russian veto in the security council" says Cameron

    In which case what's the security council veto for? And no one uses it more than the Americans in the interests of Israel. Probably time to disband it
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Labour busy weedling away trying to bring in the UN as a means of justifying their inevitable vote against bombing Isis in Syria. Does anyone really think Hilary Benn is anything other than useless?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Amber Rudd: all coal-fired power stations to be closed within 10 years.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Guido thinks something stinks in Sutton. Has more dirt:

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/667028044574556160
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    MikeL said:

    Lords debate re votes at 16 in the EU referendum going very badly for the Govt - big defeat looks likely.

    I wonder if the Government is really fighting this very hard.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    It'll be around 40-45% IMO.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    MP_SE said:

    Guido thinks something stinks in Sutton. Has more dirt:

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/667028044574556160

    Goodness me, the Lib Dems really are going to be reduced to 1 MP (Farron) in 2020 aren't they.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    AndyJS said:

    Thought-provoking piece:

    "Much of the Left has been eaten alive by Islamism. This truly regressive and oppressive political philosophy has all but destroyed a movement that once desired nothing less than the emancipation of the human race. The campaigns for equality that were right and good and brave in the 1960s have been exploited to within an inch of their lives, and actually probably far beyond that, by a political movement that hates everything those campaigns were fighting for. Women’s rights, children’s rights, gay rights, free speech, rejection of religious power over our lives, integration, free expression, music, art, freedom, love: the defence of every one of them given up bit by bit by a Left which has ceased to be worthy of the name."

    http://noramulready.com/2015/11/17/islamism-the-left-and-a-plea-to-labour-mps/

    That's an excellent piece.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    AndyJS said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    It'll be around 40-45% IMO.
    I think that's spot on
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    AndyJS said:

    Amber Rudd: all coal-fired power stations to be closed within 10 years.

    That's nuts.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Speaking of scandal-ridden LibDem MPs, when is the Alistair Carmichael decision due?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    MikeL said:

    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211

    A chunk of the party will go ballistic but I doubt Cameron will try to reverse that: it helps stack the deck.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,365
    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Amber Rudd: all coal-fired power stations to be closed within 10 years.

    That's nuts.
    That's probably what they're going to convert them to burn!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    The Lords is full of bloody fools.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    edited 2015 18
    Roger said:

    "We cannot outsource our interests to a Russian veto in the security council" says Cameron

    In which case what's the security council veto for? And no one uses it more than the Americans in the interests of Israel. Probably time to disband it

    As Cameron said - Russia has different aims to us and that is why we should not wait for any UN resolution. Russia want to protect Assad. You might be a push over but I do not see why the British government should be.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited 2015 18
    ''That's an excellent piece. ''

    Apart from the bit where it says that some on the left were shocked and dismayed when labour embraced islamism.

    That is total boll8cks.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    MikeL said:

    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211

    A chunk of the party will go ballistic but I doubt Cameron will try to reverse that: it helps stack the deck.
    I'm sure he will seek to reverse it in the Commons. It's a completely unacceptable precedent.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 18
    AndyJS said:
    5000 more than if Jezza was in charge...they would have come out quietly after having a nice chat.

    I wonder if the Russian would have stood there and engaged with them like that? Or just flattened the building?

    I am sure the terrorists mum's will be along shortly and say the guns only went off because they got stressed.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    It'll be around 40-45% IMO.
    I think that's spot on
    Why so high? That's higher than Heywood & Middleton, Manchester Central and Wythenshawe & Sale East. Of by-elections in the last Parliament in the area, only Oldham East & Saddleworth broke 40%.

    Who are all these voters who are going to be trooping out to the ballot box on a dank December night?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour · 37s38 seconds ago
    Peers vote 293-211 to let 16 and 17 year olds vote in the European Union referendum. Government will seek to overturn in Commons.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741

    MikeL said:

    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211

    A chunk of the party will go ballistic but I doubt Cameron will try to reverse that: it helps stack the deck.
    He is bound to reverse it - not because of the EU but because it'll build momentum for votes at 16 at the next GE.

    They reversed the Lords amendment for votes at 16 in Local elections yesterday - they'll reverse this for certain as well.

    But question is what happens when it goes back to the Lords. Enough Crossbenchers are going with Lab / LD that Govt has no chance of winning the vote - if opposition won't drop it.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited 2015 18

    AndyJS said:
    5000 more than if Jezza was in charge...they would have come out quietly after having a nice chat.

    I wonder if the Russian would have stood there and engaged with them like that? Or just flattened the building?

    I am sure the terrorists mum's will be along shortly and say the guns only went off because they got stressed.
    Read it again.

    *Both sides fired 5000 rounds in total*.
  • TomTom Posts: 273
    I think even Corbyn's supporters are now realising what anyone half sane knew already. And that is that regardless of his politics he is third rate (at best). He is simply not capable of leadership. It is also clearly apparent that his closest supporters are almost all 1970s/80s London leftists. This will begin to piss off the (remaining) working class membership in the north and some of the unions pretty soon as well. The PLP has to play it carefully. But 80% of his supporters didn't vote for Corbyn, they voted for a Corbyn 'avatar' of 'labour's soul'. And that he ain't.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 18
    Shit...the terrorists that fired of all those rounds aren't even the two they wanted.

    The prosecutor could say that neither Abdel-Hamid Abu Oud, the suspected organizer, nor Saleh Abdelsalam, one of Friday’s attackers, are among the arrested people, who number seven men and one woman.

    Edit:- Mail is claiming they were the ones killed...hence not arrested.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    It'll be around 40-45% IMO.
    I think that's spot on
    Why so high? That's higher than Heywood & Middleton, Manchester Central and Wythenshawe & Sale East. Of by-elections in the last Parliament in the area, only Oldham East & Saddleworth broke 40%.

    Who are all these voters who are going to be trooping out to the ballot box on a dank December night?
    Oldham East is right next door, maybe turnout will be similar?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    watford30 said:

    AndyJS said:
    5000 more than if Jezza was in charge...they would have come out quietly after having a nice chat.

    I wonder if the Russian would have stood there and engaged with them like that? Or just flattened the building?

    I am sure the terrorists mum's will be along shortly and say the guns only went off because they got stressed.
    Read it again.

    *Both sides fired 5000 rounds in total*.
    “The terrorists fired 5,000 rounds,”
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited 2015 18
    Danny565 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Guido thinks something stinks in Sutton. Has more dirt:

    https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/667028044574556160

    Goodness me, the Lib Dems really are going to be reduced to 1 MP (Farron) in 2020 aren't they.
    The Lib Dems cannot get noticed in the main media channels even when civil war breaks out.
    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/11/lib-dems-dodge-mutually-assured-destruction-lord-rennard-resigns-federal

    "And so the party seemed set on a path of mutually assured destruction. Farron and party president Sal Brinton (one of Rennard’s colleagues in the Lords) had been trying desperately behind the scenes to defuse the situation. In the end, the Lib Dem leader issued Rennard with an ultimatum: stand down or I’ll publicly call on you to resign. When an extended Sunday night deadline passed, Farron made good on his threat."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,365
    Roger said:

    "We cannot outsource our interests to a Russian veto in the security council" says Cameron

    In which case what's the security council veto for? And no one uses it more than the Americans in the interests of Israel. Probably time to disband it

    I thought, although I know comparatively little about the UN, that the idea was to stop any one member from launching a world war with the official backing of the UN. By making the five key powers of the Second World War - who were also the most significant military powers left at that time, controlling a very substantial chunk of the planet and its population between them - it made it less likely that the UN could be used to further the interest of one of them. Bear in mind that on simple majority voting, the US and Britain could easily have won every vote they proposed via their formal and informal control over large numbers of member states.

    Of course, the veto has often been a bit of a joke (the fact that Taiwan was considered one of the five most powerful countries in the world from 1949-71 suggests how seriously people took the idea of this veto). In this case, I suspect the Russians will in any case be perfectly happy with any resolution that does not specifically condemn Assad - something vague and meaningless like 'a government in accordance with the wishes of the Syrian people' will be adopted instead and they will vote for it.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741

    MikeL said:

    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211

    A chunk of the party will go ballistic but I doubt Cameron will try to reverse that: it helps stack the deck.
    I'm sure he will seek to reverse it in the Commons. It's a completely unacceptable precedent.
    Indeed - the chances of it affecting the EU ref result are miniscule (literally under 1%) and nobody cares about the Locals.

    It's very simple - this is about Lab trying to swing 4 or 5 seats at the next GE.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    MikeL said:

    MikeL said:

    RESULT: GOVT LOSES 293 to 211

    A chunk of the party will go ballistic but I doubt Cameron will try to reverse that: it helps stack the deck.
    He is bound to reverse it - not because of the EU but because it'll build momentum for votes at 16 at the next GE.

    They reversed the Lords amendment for votes at 16 in Local elections yesterday - they'll reverse this for certain as well.

    But question is what happens when it goes back to the Lords. Enough Crossbenchers are going with Lab / LD that Govt has no chance of winning the vote - if opposition won't drop it.
    Thanks. I didn't know about yesterday.

    The Spectator, which is normally very good on these things as it has inside knowledge said Cameron himself was minded not to fight it too hard as a concession.

    Will the Government force it through with the parliament act? If not, they can play the 'well, we tried but just ran out of time' card.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Paddy Power Politics ‏@pppolitics 3m3 minutes ago
    What will be the turnout in the Oldham West & Royton By-Election?Bet here: http://pdy.pr/RuyPsh

    It'll be around 40-45% IMO.
    I think that's spot on
    Why so high? That's higher than Heywood & Middleton, Manchester Central and Wythenshawe & Sale East. Of by-elections in the last Parliament in the area, only Oldham East & Saddleworth broke 40%.

    Who are all these voters who are going to be trooping out to the ballot box on a dank December night?
    Oldham East is right next door, maybe turnout will be similar?
    Manchester Central and Heywood & Middleton are also adjacent to Oldham West & Royton. Oldham East & Saddleworth was a previous marginal while the other three were all previously safe Labour seats.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    Scott_P said:

    On what has perhaps been the worst day so far of Corbyn's tenure (it's hard to tell, they have all been bad), Newsnight has a story...

    @BBCAllegra: Newsnight EXCL on Tory campaign chief doubling up to work for pro-EU camp pollsters. Qs on neutrality unanswered https://t.co/b6Lb0JHpHM

    That's what you get if you have a programme whose staff is made up of pretty much 99% former Guardian employees. So much for diversity.
    Wasn't this the same story that was on Conhome last week? If so it is hardly an exclusive.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Turnout in Leicester South in 2011 was 45% despite it being an uninteresting election in terms of who was going to win.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    AndyJS said:
    Cyclical rate of fire for submachine gun is about 800 rounds per minute 13 rounds per second. 385 seconds of firing. 12 people firing for half a minute.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641
    AndyJS said:
    Blimey - the Army fired only 1,200 rounds at Loughgall in 1987.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour · 37s38 seconds ago
    Peers vote 293-211 to let 16 and 17 year olds vote in the European Union referendum. Government will seek to overturn in Commons.

    I just don't understand the House of Lords at the moment. They seem to be choosing the most bizarre subjects on which to take a stand against the Commons.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    dr_spyn said:

    The Lords is full of bloody fools.

    It's full of Lib Dem undead.

    Cameron needs to just appoint 40-50 more Tory peers pronto, with a handful of others.

    The Guardian and Independent will go ape for a week or two. The BBC will run a story or two, and then everyone else who's not in the anti-Cameron camp already will forget about it and cease to care.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Tom said:

    I think even Corbyn's supporters are now realising what anyone half sane knew already. And that is that regardless of his politics he is third rate (at best). He is simply not capable of leadership. It is also clearly apparent that his closest supporters are almost all 1970s/80s London leftists. This will begin to piss off the (remaining) working class membership in the north and some of the unions pretty soon as well. The PLP has to play it carefully. But 80% of his supporters didn't vote for Corbyn, they voted for a Corbyn 'avatar' of 'labour's soul'. And that he ain't.

    Ah soul of Labour, that sums up Corbyn.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,139
    If Merkel is replaced it will be in an internal CDU coup not at the ballot box. The Afd are now the third most popular party in Germany in the latest poll, if that trend continues she could be ousted by her Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schauble who has been notably critical of her open welcome to Syrian refugees
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    AndyJS said:

    Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour · 37s38 seconds ago
    Peers vote 293-211 to let 16 and 17 year olds vote in the European Union referendum. Government will seek to overturn in Commons.

    I just don't understand the House of Lords at the moment. They seem to be choosing the most bizarre subjects on which to take a stand against the Commons.
    The point is that they're taking a stand. In the absence of a functioning opposition in the House of Commons, they're taking it on themselves to provide one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Francis

    "I am sure Jezza will be along to tell us that was totally the wrong thing. That they should have tried harder to reason with him to give himself up."

    I understand the first casualty of the siege was a police dog. I could well understand why they would send a dog in first but I'm sure there there are many animal lovers who wouldn't approve perhaps even 'Jezza'
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302

    dr_spyn said:

    The Lords is full of bloody fools.

    It's full of Lib Dem undead.

    Cameron needs to just appoint 40-50 more Tory peers pronto, with a handful of others.

    The Guardian and Independent will go ape for a week or two. The BBC will run a story or two, and then everyone else who's not in the anti-Cameron camp already will forget about it and cease to care.
    I wonder if any of the noble Lords have had cause to mark or moderate the work of 16 and 18 year olds, some of them might even be amazed how big a difference two years of schooling makes.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    Roger said:

    "We cannot outsource our interests to a Russian veto in the security council" says Cameron

    In which case what's the security council veto for? And no one uses it more than the Americans in the interests of Israel. Probably time to disband it

    As Cameron said - Russia has different aims to us and that is why we should not wait for any UN resolution. Russia want to protect Assad. You might be a push over but I do not see why the British government should be.
    So you are agreeing that the UN Security Council no longer serves a useful function and should henceforth be ignored? I would suggest that is a very slippery slope. All the more so given the likelihood of accidents with two sets of aircraft operating in the same airspace carrying out operations.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    AndyJS said:
    Blimey - the Army fired only 1,200 rounds at Loughgall in 1987.
    Was that with the FN SLR? Because that was self loading single shot. Maybe it's memories of islandwana that make the brass hats worry about running out of ammunition
This discussion has been closed.