Having worked on archaeological sites in Northern Syria and being intimately involved with a lot of what was happening in the country in the early 2000s I have followed events closely. Hence the reason I know your time line us so warped.
One officer killed in July 2013.
Yet the FSA were applying enough pressure against Assad that he decided to use chemical weapons against them the next month.
A remarkable conclusion there, Sir, and might I suggest based more on hope than experience. Look at the list of the enemies the Taliban made and they are still there.
The Taliban's operations are local. ISIS is actively spoiling for a fight outside the borders of Syria and Iraq. Big difference.
Ok, I see the difference but I do not see how the range of enemies you mention are going to bring about the destruction of ISIS. How do you think it will happen?
ISIS can be destroyed. Militarily by Assad and the Kurds. Just cutting off important roads.
But that just cuts fingers and not the body. The western powers know exactly how ISIS is funded. Don't listen to this bullshit about smuggled oil. Smuggled oil in tanks can also be bombed.
I am talking about the supply of money. Stop it at source and I mean in the Gulf.
Very interesting. Particularly the piece by Robert Fisk who's always worth taking notice of. One of the few independent journalists who live in the area
Having worked on archaeological sites in Northern Syria and being intimately involved with a lot of what was happening in the country in the early 2000s I have followed events closely. Hence the reason I know your time line us so warped.
One officer killed in July 2013.
Yet the FSA were applying enough pressure against Assad that he decided to use chemical weapons against them the next month.
Exactly despite Assad knowing that using chemical weapons likely would result in the west joining against him. It was a desperate gambit by a desperate man. The sooner he was evicted from power the sooner someone else could be in it.
I am more angry than I've been in a long time. Perhaps because I had a lovely half-term in Paris with my children. There can be no quarter or respite for these people or their ideology. If my own emotional reaction is anything to go by, European politics is about to get a lot more bellicose...
Attackers had Syrian, Egyptian and French passports
A journalist from Liberation reports that the attackers had Syrian and Egyptian passports on them, and that at least one of the attackers was a Frenchman known to authorities an on what is called a 'Fiche S', a watchlist of the security services. Ayoub El-Khazzani, the foiled attacker on the TGV, was also on one.
Police sources have also confirmed that one of the attackers at the Bataclan was a Frenchman.
Why were they carrying passports ? They clearly wanted the world to know. Why did they ?
A remarkable conclusion there, Sir, and might I suggest based more on hope than experience. Look at the list of the enemies the Taliban made and they are still there.
The Taliban's operations are local. ISIS is actively spoiling for a fight outside the borders of Syria and Iraq. Big difference.
So we should decimate them. No more time for liberal hand-wringing about drone attacks. We should be carpet bombing ISIS compounds.
Just watched a video on the Le Monde website that I wish I hadn't. Included footage of people being dragged lifeless from the concert hall. I thought that sort of thing would have been censored on a Le Monde webpage.
What a pity our continental European friends didn't listen to Maggie's warning in her Bruges speech of 1988:
“it is a matter of plain common sense that we cannot totally abolish frontier controls if we are also to protect our citizens from crime and stop the movement of drugs, of terrorists and of illegal immigrants.”
Very pertinent. It was mentioned earlier in this thread by Kle4 and Morris_Dancer that because we've not felt genuinely threatened by and outside agent for so long that we don't know how to react to aggression. Not for a moment do I fear for Western Civilization, but it would be good if, for once, our politicians actually say it as it is rather than the usual bollocks we get.
If it does turn out to have been immigrants who have come in off the back of the refugee's, Merkel's actions need to be called out for what they are.
Attackers had Syrian, Egyptian and French passports
A journalist from Liberation reports that the attackers had Syrian and Egyptian passports on them, and that at least one of the attackers was a Frenchman known to authorities an on what is called a 'Fiche S', a watchlist of the security services. Ayoub El-Khazzani, the foiled attacker on the TGV, was also on one.
Police sources have also confirmed that one of the attackers at the Bataclan was a Frenchman.
Why were they carrying passports ? They clearly wanted the world to know. Why did they ?
You probably have to carry ID in France, it might have just been the natural thing to do
Having worked on archaeological sites in Northern Syria and being intimately involved with a lot of what was happening in the country in the early 2000s I have followed events closely. Hence the reason I know your time line us so warped.
One officer killed in July 2013.
Yet the FSA were applying enough pressure against Assad that he decided to use chemical weapons against them the next month.
Did you actually even bother to read the article? Clearly not since it refers to the effective collapse of the FSA in the first half of 2013 and the growth of radical Islamic units to fill the gap they had left.
But of course you don't believe that because it doesn't match your ill informed view.
Attackers had Syrian, Egyptian and French passports
A journalist from Liberation reports that the attackers had Syrian and Egyptian passports on them, and that at least one of the attackers was a Frenchman known to authorities an on what is called a 'Fiche S', a watchlist of the security services. Ayoub El-Khazzani, the foiled attacker on the TGV, was also on one.
Police sources have also confirmed that one of the attackers at the Bataclan was a Frenchman.
Why were they carrying passports ? They clearly wanted the world to know. Why did they ?
So they could prove their identities as martyrs in their sick religion.
THere is a poster on here called Roger who really is a despicable piece of work, earlier on this thread he said that if it was up to me there would be no Jews left. I really have no idea how he came to that conclusion. I appreciate that all sorts of weird people are drawn to Internet forums, but for him to suggest something as utterly disgusting as that is as risible as it can get.
French police are chasing 'four heavily armed people' in a Citroen that forced its way through a motorway toll road heading for Paris
Police currently in pursuit of Citroen containing 'four heavily armed men' Car reportedly stormed through motorway toll road and is heading to Paris The country remains on high alert after a string of terror attacks last night At least 127 people were killed when gunmen and suicide bombers hit city
Europe is in the mist of an immigration crises that can only get worse in the spring as word gets out in the developing world that Europe has became a ''soft touch '' and has lost the will to enforce its own borders..we can expect millions of immigrants (mostly Moslem ) to opportunistically to GATE CRASH our borders coming through Turkey ; the Turks will offer to close down or at least slow down this flow of humanity but naturally it will be for a high price ...they will blackmail us in good Turkish rug merchant style and we will have to pay an annual Turkish Danegeld to keep the flow to a manageable level ...the Third World has a decisive advantage , insomuch that they have the 'Population Bomb'' and are certain to use it against us !
No if we'd removed Assad and helped another opposition leader take control then the situation could be controlled with them supported rather than ISIL taking control of the opposition (which it wasn't at the time of the vote).
Yes it was. I am not sure where this myth came from but I debunked it last time it was raised. Look at the dates for the vote and the dates for growing Isil activity inside Syria and the growth of Isil predates our Parliamentary decision by many months if not a year.
The alternatives you mention were already being ripped apart by internecine fighting well before we decided to get involved and the idea there was anyone else than Isil who would have been able to take advantage of our bombing Assad is ridiculous
The Parliamentary vote was August 2013 when the Free Syrian Army was still a major player, which it is not anymore. ISIL was growing yes and had been around in one form or another since the 20th century but it made great progress in 2014 which is after the Parliamentary Vote. The FSA fell apart in late 2014 too.
No, ISIS was formed in March 2013, and rolled through Syria from November 2013 onwards and utterly decimated the FSA in early 2014. If we had cleared the way for the FSA it would have cleared the way for ISIS just weeks later.
November 2013 is after August 2013. Early 2014 is after August 2013. By any definition the Parliamentary vote was earlier.
Had FSA taken over they could be supported with the full apparatus of the Syrian state to defeat ISIL; besides in one way FSA support disappeared and went to ISIL once we decided to abandon the FSA in the face of Assad using chemical weapons on his people.
Rubbish, are you really saying that the FSA would have completed a full military victory over Assad in less than 8 weeks and consolidated their power in that time. If you do I have a bridge to sell you.
The FSA support "disappeared" because they were all killed by ISIS.
It took six weeks for Germany to invade France. More recently it took six weeks for the US to topple Saddam in Iraq. It took 8 weeks is a very long time. Had the FSA had the armaments and full support of the west they would not have all been killed.
The might and power of the third Reich or the US military is not comparable to that of the FSA even with western air support. It took the Libyan rebels 7 months to topple Gaddafi with full NATO support. How the FSA would have taken control of Syria in less than 8 weeks is something that must exist only in your mind because in the real world it would have been impossible.
I agree with David. We need to assert and defend our values. I think there was some understandably intemperate comments about Islam this morning but we need to be clearer and more specific about what our society is about. I would ban religious clothing that covers the face; I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever.
I would ban single sex schools and classes. I would close any school where there is an unacceptable discrepancy between the performance, attainment and attendance of boys and girls. Actually I would like to exclude religion from school altogether but that is a different argument. I would ban lectures in public institutions to single sexes. I would not allow foreign funding of mosques or the equivalent in the UK. It should be made very clear that Islam is in the last chance saloon in this country as an acceptable religion.
Having worked on archaeological sites in Northern Syria and being intimately involved with a lot of what was happening in the country in the early 2000s I have followed events closely. Hence the reason I know your time line us so warped.
One officer killed in July 2013.
Yet the FSA were applying enough pressure against Assad that he decided to use chemical weapons against them the next month.
Did you actually even bother to read the article? Clearly not since it refers to the effective collapse of the FSA in the first half of 2013 and the growth of radical Islamic units to fill the gap they had left.
But of course you don't believe that because it doesn't match your ill informed view.
Yes, I did read it. And again I ask why Assad used chemical weapons against the FSA on the outskirts of Damascus just a month later. They were far from collapsed, and Assad saw them as being the biggest threat.
P.s. I like the way you call my view 'ill-informed'. It isn't.
"One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.
The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24."
"One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.
The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24."
They can't stand that Cameron was wrong and Ed, somehow, was right.
Ed cannot have been right because he didn't have a position. He promised to support the government position, and then reneged at the last moment for internal party political reasons, in the expectation that the government would win the vote anyway so he could have his cake and criticise the government for eating it. It was contemptible, however you look at it.
Of course there were serious and principled opponents to the intervention, and they might have been right. But Ed wasn't one of them.
I defended Ed a lot, and I don't even care about supposed reneging, but my issue was the Labour amendment was about one thing, and after it and the government motion failed, he pretended the amendment had been intended to do another. It was as open a falsehood as happens, which are usually very rare.
''One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.'' Isn;t that double the number of muslims actually in France?? Seems a bit fishy
France has more socialists than us. Muslims probably make up 1 in 10.
"It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
At the time this poll was done, I wouldn't be surprised if half those polled thought ISIS was a government welfare programme, the latest boyband, a smartphone game, or simply had never heard of them and said yes/no at random.
At the time this poll was done, I wouldn't be surprised if half those polled thought ISIS was a government welfare programme, the latest boyband, a smartphone game, or simply had never heard of them and said yes/no at random.
In that case they shouldn't have been so careless in answering the question.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
No. Every new set of Muslim immigration means we never really get past the second generation.
People keep dying of lung cancer, how can we keep smoking cigarettes but eliminate the lung cancer deaths?
Do you think Muslims should not be allowed in Europe? Or just extremists? If you have a litmus test to discern between the two, our security services would be keen for your help
How do Saudis deal with Christians in their country?
Do you think we should treat Islam the same way Islamic countries treat other religions?
I once read an interesting book by an ex British Ambassador to Saudi - lets just say it was clear he was not a fan of the place and their practices.
Might it not be a fair starting place for debate at least?
Oh I agree.
I am at turns amused and revolted by Muslims complaining about life in non muslim countries (very tolerant non muslim nations) whilst ignoring the rather huge Elephant in the room that is Islam's treatment of other religions.
Blaming all Muslims for Islamic State atrocities against Christians is like blaming all men for domestic abuse of battered women, or blaming all Americans for the worst parts of US foreign policy. It's not something to be amused by or revolted by, but a logical fallacy to skip over. The West should, in fact, help Muslims by destroying the biggest threat to Muslims in the world today, namely the Daesh.
I am not even talking about those atrocities.
I am talking on a far more general level and these events preceed Islamic State and extend beyond the Middle East.
I am not quite sure where you got "all muslims" from either, but I am sure you have your reasons.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
Attackers had Syrian, Egyptian and French passports
A journalist from Liberation reports that the attackers had Syrian and Egyptian passports on them, and that at least one of the attackers was a Frenchman known to authorities an on what is called a 'Fiche S', a watchlist of the security services. Ayoub El-Khazzani, the foiled attacker on the TGV, was also on one.
Police sources have also confirmed that one of the attackers at the Bataclan was a Frenchman.
Why were they carrying passports ? They clearly wanted the world to know. Why did they ?
We can't even be sure that the person carrying the Syrian passport was Syrian. There have been all those stories of Syrian passports being sold to others because they were seen as an easy way of getting into Europe as a "poor Syrian refugee".
"TGV train derails near French city of Strasbourg, five killed and seven injured, local media report http://bbc.in/1lotR4e "
what a couple of days for the French (I notice Britain has the fewest road transport deaths "In the world" - although I suspect data does not exist for some)
"TGV train derails near French city of Strasbourg, five killed and seven injured, local media report http://bbc.in/1lotR4e "
what a couple of days for the French (I notice Britain has the fewest road transport deaths "In the world" - although I suspect data does not exist for some)
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
So your response to islamic terrorism is to shut down Winchester, Eton and the like. I confess I am not wholly convinced your solution will be efficacious, old wykehamists have not been at the forefront of islamist movement.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
The Muslim community has shown it cannot be trusted with religious schools and even organised religion, the Jewish community has. We don't get homegrown Jewish terrorists blowing up trains and buses in London or going over to Syria to murder and rape non-Jews.
It is a matter of outcomes, the outcome of Islamic schools and Mosques has been to increase the number of terrorists. The Muslim community has broken the trust given to it by the British public, and now it must be earned back. If Muslim people don't like the new reality, should the government be man enough to do what is necessary, then they are free to move to Pakistan or some other shithole they want to emulate in this country.
So your response to islamic terrorism is to shut down Winchester, Eton and the like. I confess I am not wholly convinced your solution will be efficacious, old wykehamists have not been at the forefront of islamist movement.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
No. Every new set of Muslim immigration means we never really get past the second generation.
Why shouldn't we discriminate in this way. It is absurd this belief that one must never discriminate even when the reason for doing it is valid and relevant. Orthodox Jews are not blowing us up or killing us or threatening us. Radical Muslims are. Deal with the problem we face rather than look for problems which don't exist purely to fulfill some ludicrous idea of fairness.
The time has long since past when we should be discriminating against those practices and the people who indulge in them which cause us and our society harm.
I am largely with DavidL on his proposals. I made similar ones myself earlier this year after Charlie Hebdo and was criticised by some. No matter.
The terrorist fish swim in a sea. We do not make the sea bigger. And we drain the sea of the oxygen needed for the fish to survive. If Muslims in the West are not willing to accommodate themselves to the values, mores, laws and culture of the West then they are free to find somewhere more accommodating. But I am sick to the back teeth of us having to accommodate practices and so-called cultures which are barbaric in the name of some ludicrous and completely misdescribed diversity and non-discrimination.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
I'd be very much in favour of closing until further notice all Muslim schools until they prove as a collective group that they're free of all the most unattractive elements of their faith.
They simply can't be trusted any longer. It may be a dozen bad apples - but that's too many in my view. Other religious schools don't have the same baggage.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
The Muslim community has shown it cannot be trusted with religious schools and even organised religion, the Jewish community has. We don't get homegrown Jewish terrorists blowing up trains and buses in London or going over to Syria to murder and rape non-Jews.
It is a matter of outcomes, the outcome of Islamic schools and Mosques has been to increase the number of terrorists. The Muslim community has broken the trust given to it by the British public, and now it must be earned back. If Muslim people don't like the new reality, should the government be man enough to do what is necessary, then they are free to move to Pakistan or some other shithole they want to emulate in this country.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Nick Alexander, 36, from London, was shot in front of Helen Wilson, an American expat who herself was wounded in both legs. Miss Wilson, speaking from her hospital bed, told The Telegraph how she had tried to keep him alive as they lay on the ground at the Bataclan concert hall.
She tried to give him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and held him in her arms as he struggled for his life. Miss Wilson, 49, originally from New Orleans, also told how she witnessed the gunmen deliberately targeting concert-goers in wheelchairs. The gunmen hunted down disabled people who were sat in an area specially set aside for wheelchair users.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Russia hasn't really upset us that much.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Russia's activity in Ukraine, Georgia, and its relationship with Assad is certainly worrying. Russia are obviously a lesser evil in comparison to ISIS and the like, but I still wouldn't trust Putin.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Russia hasn't really upset us that much.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Russia's activity in Ukraine, Georgia, and its relationship with Assad is certainly worrying. Russia are obviously a lesser evil in comparison to ISIS and the like, but I still wouldn't trust Putin.
But it hasn't exactly led to a war.
Ukraines boundaries for better or worse don't reflect the ethnic make up of the population and I'd rather have Assad than ISIL.
'I'd be very much in favour of closing until further notice all Muslim schools until they prove as a collective group that they're free of all the most unattractive elements of their faith.
They simply can't be trusted any longer. It may be a dozen bad apples - but that's too many in my view. Other religious schools don't have the same baggage'.
Unfortunately the poison is not just confined to Muslim schools but also state schools as we witnessed in Birmingham. But closing Muslim schools would be a good start.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
I doubt you'll find any regime more militaristic than Soviet Russia,
"THere is a poster on here called Roger who really is a despicable piece of work, earlier on this thread he said that if it was up to me there would be no Jews left."
What I said was this.
"The truth is that if you follow the logic of the Isams and Blackburn's (and several other posters on here) there would be no Jews to escort to synagogues in Sweden (or here)."
Which was my response to this:
" Enoch Powell predicted this would happen, Farage has been warning this would happen... the people in power, and those who worship at their feet, have smeared them and denounced their predictions to the detriment of us all"
Enoch Powell didn't believe anyone who was not of English heritage could assimilate nor should.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
Spain under Franco didn't start a world war. And I hardly think the FN is in the same league as the NSDAP when it comes to nastiness
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Russia hasn't really upset us that much.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Russia's activity in Ukraine, Georgia, and its relationship with Assad is certainly worrying. Russia are obviously a lesser evil in comparison to ISIS and the like, but I still wouldn't trust Putin.
But it hasn't exactly led to a war.
Ukraines boundaries for better or worse don't reflect the ethnic make up of the population and I'd rather have Assad than ISIL.
True, but Russia - historically in the twentieth century - were one of the totalitarian governments who did not pursue a 'war', in the same way Hitler, Mussolinin etc. pursued war. So although I don't think Russia is looking for a war, I am concerned they have expansionist aims. Of course Assad is the lesser evil to ISIS, but he's still an 'evil'.
'I'd be very much in favour of closing until further notice all Muslim schools until they prove as a collective group that they're free of all the most unattractive elements of their faith.
They simply can't be trusted any longer. It may be a dozen bad apples - but that's too many in my view. Other religious schools don't have the same baggage'.
Unfortunately the poison is not just confined to Muslim schools but also state schools as we witnessed in Birmingham. But closing Muslim schools would be a good start.
Personally I’d close all “faith” schools. Education should be provided by the State.
"THere is a poster on here called Roger who really is a despicable piece of work, earlier on this thread he said that if it was up to me there would be no Jews left."
What I said was this.
"The truth is that if you follow the logic of the Isams and Blackburn's (and several other posters on here) there would be no Jews to escort to synagogues in Sweden (or here)."
Which was my response to this:
" Enoch Powell predicted this would happen, Farage has been warning this would happen... the people in power, and those who worship at their feet, have smeared them and denounced their predictions to the detriment of us all"
Enoch Powell didn't believe anyone who was not of English heritage could assimilate nor should.
Quite, you completely misrepresented what I had, or in this case hadn't said. Next weekend I will be having lunch with some Jewish friends, as a Spurs fan I have quite a few in North London.
Earlier today you were called vermin, I think that's a fair description.
@JohnLilburne Well, Hitler did 'test' his weapons in Guernica the Spanish Civil. My point wasn't that every single far-right government will start a war; but that the election of many far-right governments across Europe leads to war.
FN doesn't have to be in the same league as NSDAP in order for their election not to be desirable.
@HurstLlama Well, I don't agree with religious schools. I don't believe religion has any place within the Education system. That's my position.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Russia hasn't really upset us that much.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Russia's activity in Ukraine, Georgia, and its relationship with Assad is certainly worrying. Russia are obviously a lesser evil in comparison to ISIS and the like, but I still wouldn't trust Putin.
But it hasn't exactly led to a war.
Ukraines boundaries for better or worse don't reflect the ethnic make up of the population and I'd rather have Assad than ISIL.
True, but Russia - historically in the twentieth century - were one of the totalitarian governments who did not pursue a 'war', in the same way Hitler, Mussolinin etc. pursued war. So although I don't think Russia is looking for a war, I am concerned they have expansionist aims. Of course Assad is the lesser evil to ISIS, but he's still an 'evil'.
Really ?
Invasion of Poland 1920, Invasion of Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1939, Invasion of Finland 1940. Annexation of Bessarabia 1940. Invasion of Hungary 1956, Invasion of Czechoslovakia 1968. Invasion of Afghanistan 1979.
Then there are all the wars by proxy from Korea to Angola.
I think they're just as aggressive as the Fascist powers.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
Spain under Franco didn't start a world war.
But they did start a three-year civil war which was pretty nasty.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Russia hasn't really upset us that much.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Russia's activity in Ukraine, Georgia, and its relationship with Assad is certainly worrying. Russia are obviously a lesser evil in comparison to ISIS and the like, but I still wouldn't trust Putin.
But it hasn't exactly led to a war.
Ukraines boundaries for better or worse don't reflect the ethnic make up of the population and I'd rather have Assad than ISIL.
True, but Russia - historically in the twentieth century - were one of the totalitarian governments who did not pursue a 'war', in the same way Hitler, Mussolinin etc. pursued war. So although I don't think Russia is looking for a war, I am concerned they have expansionist aims. Of course Assad is the lesser evil to ISIS, but he's still an 'evil'.
Really ?
Invasion of Poland 1920, Invasion of Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Finland in 1939, Invasion of Finland 1940. Annexation of Bessarabia 1940. Invasion of Hungary 1956, Invasion of Czechoslovakia 1968. Invasion of Afghanistan 1979.
Then there are all the wars by proxy from Korea to Angola.
I think they're just as aggressive as the Fascist powers.
You're right - I'd forgetton about their invasion of other neighbouring Eastern European countries. Which is probably why Putin's meddling in Eastern Europe today is concerning....
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
So if they're gaining support why do you think that is ?
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
I was thinking just the same thing. A knowledge of history need not it seem be necessary for pronouncing on it.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
I was thinking just the same thing. A knowledge of history need not it seem be necessary for pronouncing on it.
It strange thing you're all busy thinking it, and yet not actually explaining why you think it's so wrong. In all my life, having studied History at GCSE, and A-level I've never been told that it's wrong. But resident PBers are 'thinking it' so it must be true.
@Alanbrooke Somehow, I think 90% of PB has already gone over that rather explosive topic and more.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
I can confirm that in GCSE History I learnt of there being numerous causes of World War 2. Right-wing governments alone will not lead to a world war.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
I was thinking just the same thing. A knowledge of history need not it seem be necessary for pronouncing on it.
It strange thing you're all busy t be true.
@Alanbrooke Somehow, I think 90% of PB has already gone over that rather explosive topic and more.
yes but I'd be surprised if you agreed with the arguments put forward, so what are your thoughts ?
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
Hitler was never elected. He was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg in 1933. His party, as I'm sure you recall, went by "Nationalsozialist".
WWII was round four of a conflict that can be traced back to 1806; or, if that's too far, 1870.
I know the 'far right' is a modern bogeyman. Where are they? Where are the atrocities committed by the far right post 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali and many others too numerous to list? I just don't see it. Le Pen is a nationalist. Her father is a much more unpleasant critter, that I will grant you.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
I can confirm that in GCSE History I learnt of there being numerous causes of World War 2.
I didn't dispute that. Thus I said 'one of the causes', and 'contributed' in my previous posts; all of which implies there were numerous causes. I hardly said it was the only cause.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
How is it wrong exactly? That is pretty much what is taught in various different schools across the country; that the rise in militaristic governments contributed to WW2 occuring.
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
I can confirm that in GCSE History I learnt of there being numerous causes of World War 2.
The fact that something is taught in schools doesn't make it right. The main cause of WW2 was WW1. The Great Depression was probably the second most important.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
Would you be able to humour me and explain how France and maybe the Netherlands electing right to far-right governments lead to a world war?
Well, I did suggest so in my previous post - that historically, in recent history the election of far-right governments across Europe has led to world wars. Given that far-right ideologies tend to be militaristic especially, I don't exactly see why the election/ascension of far-right governments today would produce a different outcome to the 1930s-40s.
You do understand what the various causes of World War 2 were?
Yes - and one of the causes was the election of far-right, militaristic governments.
Wow, so much wrong in such a short sentence.
I was thinking just the same thing. A knowledge of history need not it seem be necessary for pronouncing on it.
It strange thing you're all busy thinking it, and yet not actually explaining why you think it's so wrong. In all my life, having studied History at GCSE, and A-level I've never been told that it's wrong. But resident PBers are 'thinking it' so it must be true.
@Alanbrooke Somehow, I think 90% of PB has already gone over that rather explosive topic and more.
Well, for a start you could think about which of these far-right militaristic governments were elected as such. You might also consider that war was not the inevitable outcome of a European country with what might reasonably be considered a far-right, militaristic government (e.g. Spain and Portugal).
Hitler was never elected. He was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg in 1933. His party, as I'm sure you recall, went by "Nationalsozialist".
WWII was round four of a conflict that can be traced back to 1806; or, if that's too far, 1870.
I know the 'far right' is a modern bogeyman. Where are they? Where are the atrocities committed by the far right post 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali and many others too numerous to list. I just don't see it. Le Pen is a nationalist. Her father is a much more unpleasant critter, that I will grant you.
Well, it's complicated with Hitler; The Nazis got the most votes; and in that sense they've often been referred to has having been 'elected'. But if that's your issue; we'll change it to the 'rise' of far-right governments, given that Hitler and the Nazis didn't get pass the threshold needed to form a government at that time.
The Nazis may have well been called the National Socialists, but in pretty much most discussions they are not seen as associated with totalitarian forms of 'socialism' in the same way Stalin was. For a start the Nazis - courtsey of their Brownshirts - went around intimidating and beating up communists.
On WW2; I never said that the rise in far-right, and militaristic governments was the only cause; as I stated before I said it was 'one of the causes', and 'contributed' to the outbreak of WW2. I'm well aware of the other reasons behind WW2.
If you're relaxed about the rise of the far-right, again that's fine. I'm not though.
The fact that something is taught in schools doesn't make it right. The main cause of WW2 was WW1. The Great Depression was probably the second most important.
I was not agreeing with Miss Apocalypse and am in complete agreement with what you said. The aftermath of WW1 is the most important reason out of many reasons.
I am finding the argument that electing the Front Nationale and Geert Wilders' party will be the cause of another world war really baffling.
Hitler becoming Chancellor, surely was consequent upon the NSDAP nwinning a significant bloc of seats in the Reichstag and tHindenburg’s allies thinking that as officers and gentlemen they could control the "little corporal".
Agree about the whole thing been festering since the 1860’s, though. Although I never did O Level History.
Well, for a start you could think about which of these far-right militaristic governments were elected as such. You might also consider that war was not the inevitable outcome of a European country with what might reasonably be considered a far-right, militaristic government (e.g. Spain and Portugal).
I've conceded the point re far-right governments being elected; but it's commonly referred to, in regards to the German people 'voting' for Hitler. I also don't agree on your second point. The Nazis supported Franco, (for example) a reason: the more far-right governments there were across Europe, the more allies - or at least less opponents - they were likely to have in regard to their expansionist and war aims.
The tragic thing is that the only French politician talking any sense, today, and offering serious, cogent proposals - rather than dreary platitudes - is Marine Le Pen.
Why is that tragic? I know little of le Pen but surely talking sense is a good thing.
Front Nationale being elected will make things even worse than they already are in Europe. France really has a terrible set of politicians to choose from.
You can't get worse than Merkel's full scale push towards national suicide.
I think one of Europe biggest power's electing a fascist, racist government would be suicidal for pretty much all of Europe. Once one far-right government gets elected, it's likely to set off a chain reaction. As history shows, that can only mean one thing....
So, in light of your post at 16:29 what did you mean by that last, unfinished, sentence? What is the one thing that will happen if, for example, France elects a FN president?
Hitler was never elected. He was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg in 1933. His party, as I'm sure you recall, went by "Nationalsozialist".
WWII was round four of a conflict that can be traced back to 1806; or, if that's too far, 1870.
I know the 'far right' is a modern bogeyman. Where are they? Where are the atrocities committed by the far right post 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali and many others too numerous to list. I just don't see it. Le Pen is a nationalist. Her father is a much more unpleasant critter, that I will grant you.
Well, it's complicated with Hitler; The Nazis got the most votes; and in that sense they've often been referred to has having been 'elected'. But if that's your issue; we'll change it to the 'rise' of far-right governments, given that Hitler and the Nazis didn't get pass the threshold needed to form a government at that time.
The Nazis may have well been called the National Socialists, but in pretty much most discussions they are not seen as associated with totalitarian forms of 'socialism' in the same way Stalin was. For a start the Nazis - courtsey of their Brownshirts - went around intimidating and beating up communists.
On WW2; I never said that the rise in far-right, and militaristic governments was the only cause; as I stated before I said it was 'one of the causes', and 'contributed' to the outbreak of WW2. I'm well aware of the other reasons behind WW2.
If you're relaxed about the rise of the far-right, again that's fine. I'm not though.
The German Communists were quite capable of street violence themselves and were organised in much the same way as the NSDAP. The Communists would beat up the mostsly pacific socialists as much as the Nazis.
Attackers had Syrian, Egyptian and French passports
A journalist from Liberation reports that the attackers had Syrian and Egyptian passports on them, and that at least one of the attackers was a Frenchman known to authorities an on what is called a 'Fiche S', a watchlist of the security services. Ayoub El-Khazzani, the foiled attacker on the TGV, was also on one.
Police sources have also confirmed that one of the attackers at the Bataclan was a Frenchman.
Why were they carrying passports ? They clearly wanted the world to know. Why did they ?
So they could prove their identities as martyrs in their sick religion.
Comments
John McTernan @johnmcternan 2h2 hours ago
John McTernan Retweeted
Just a reminder - @UKLabour's front bench have committed to consulting these people about Labour policy on ISIS. https://twitter.com/STWuk/status/665483000767991808 …
Yet the FSA were applying enough pressure against Assad that he decided to use chemical weapons against them the next month.
But that just cuts fingers and not the body. The western powers know exactly how ISIS is funded. Don't listen to this bullshit about smuggled oil. Smuggled oil in tanks can also be bombed.
I am talking about the supply of money. Stop it at source and I mean in the Gulf.
I am more angry than I've been in a long time. Perhaps because I had a lovely half-term in Paris with my children. There can be no quarter or respite for these people or their ideology. If my own emotional reaction is anything to go by, European politics is about to get a lot more bellicose...
If it does turn out to have been immigrants who have come in off the back of the refugee's, Merkel's actions need to be called out for what they are.
You probably have to carry ID in France, it might have just been the natural thing to do
But of course you don't believe that because it doesn't match your ill informed view.
I have a feeling that period might have to be extended.
Read more at Reutershttp://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/30/us-mideast-crisis-syria-talks-idUSKCN0SN1SS20151030#AFGBrfId7YOfQlkU.99
So they could prove their identities as martyrs in their sick religion.
Europe is in the mist of an immigration crises that can only get worse in the spring as word gets out in the developing world that Europe has became a ''soft touch '' and has lost the will to enforce its own borders..we can expect millions of immigrants (mostly Moslem ) to opportunistically to GATE CRASH our borders coming through Turkey ; the Turks will offer to close down or at least slow down this flow of humanity but naturally it will be for a high price ...they will blackmail us in good Turkish rug merchant style and we will have to pay an annual Turkish Danegeld to keep the flow to a manageable level ...the Third World has a decisive advantage , insomuch that they have the 'Population Bomb'' and are certain to use it against us !
I would ban single sex schools and classes. I would close any school where there is an unacceptable discrepancy between the performance, attainment and attendance of boys and girls. Actually I would like to exclude religion from school altogether but that is a different argument. I would ban lectures in public institutions to single sexes. I would not allow foreign funding of mosques or the equivalent in the UK. It should be made very clear that Islam is in the last chance saloon in this country as an acceptable religion.
Enough.
P.s. I like the way you call my view 'ill-informed'. It isn't.
Bet agreed to... date by 2/7/16 lunch paid by loser(almost certainly me
Texted this to you yesterday but no response.
SR
Translation of the ISIS statement on Spectator blog:
http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/the-first-of-the-storm-translation-of-islamic-state-statement-after-paris-attacks/
"One in six French citizens sympathises with the Islamist militant group ISIS, also known as Islamic State, a poll released this week found.
The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS. This percentage increases among younger respondents, spiking at 27% for those aged 18-24."
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
They are all able to come here under free movement too.
Isn;t that double the number of muslims actually in France??
Seems a bit fishy
"It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity, the carrier of the banner of the Cross in Europe: Paris." ... "[They also targeted] the Bataclan Conference Center, where hundreds of apostates had gathered in a profligate prostitution party" ...
These people reeeeally need to get laid.
How many people "already known to the police" are going to get an early knock in the coming days?
Wonderful staff and wonderful food.
"I would not tolerate arranged marriages with men British girls have not met from countries that do not share our values. The spouses of arranged marriages should not be allowed in the UK, ever."
Very difficult. If the plan is a scorched earth policy against Muslims it'll hit so many non Muslims who share their traditions that our values will end up looking pretty similar to those you want to eradicate.
Arranged marriages are the norm among religious Muslims and orthodox Jews. We would have to proscribe Israeli as well as Pakistani men. How would the world regard us if we banned Yeshivas? Or worse if we kept Yeshivas and banned Muslim faith schools?
Most of the problems in Europe caused by the enemy within are from second or third generation immigrants so the only solution would be mass deportation which would be acceptable to no one......
I am talking on a far more general level and these events preceed Islamic State and extend beyond the Middle East.
I am not quite sure where you got "all muslims" from either, but I am sure you have your reasons.
"It targeted the capital of prostitution and obscenity"
Wasn't that the Yorkshire Ripper's line? Clearly another case for Broadmoor
We can't even be sure that the person carrying the Syrian passport was Syrian. There have been all those stories of Syrian passports being sold to others because they were seen as an easy way of getting into Europe as a "poor Syrian refugee".
what a couple of days for the French (I notice Britain has the fewest road transport deaths "In the world" - although I suspect data does not exist for some)
"I would ban single sex schools and classes."
So your response to islamic terrorism is to shut down Winchester, Eton and the like. I confess I am not wholly convinced your solution will be efficacious, old wykehamists have not been at the forefront of islamist movement.
It is a matter of outcomes, the outcome of Islamic schools and Mosques has been to increase the number of terrorists. The Muslim community has broken the trust given to it by the British public, and now it must be earned back. If Muslim people don't like the new reality, should the government be man enough to do what is necessary, then they are free to move to Pakistan or some other shithole they want to emulate in this country.
The time has long since past when we should be discriminating against those practices and the people who indulge in them which cause us and our society harm.
I am largely with DavidL on his proposals. I made similar ones myself earlier this year after Charlie Hebdo and was criticised by some. No matter.
The terrorist fish swim in a sea. We do not make the sea bigger. And we drain the sea of the oxygen needed for the fish to survive. If Muslims in the West are not willing to accommodate themselves to the values, mores, laws and culture of the West then they are free to find somewhere more accommodating. But I am sick to the back teeth of us having to accommodate practices and so-called cultures which are barbaric in the name of some ludicrous and completely misdescribed diversity and non-discrimination.
Back to the beginning of the comments!
' Iran has always been a beacon in the Islamic world, a long term, stable democracy with male and female suffrage from the age of 15.'
Being allowed to vote for different varieties of Islamic dogma is not democracy
They simply can't be trusted any longer. It may be a dozen bad apples - but that's too many in my view. Other religious schools don't have the same baggage.
We'll be cooperating with them soon enough.
Ukraines boundaries for better or worse don't reflect the ethnic make up of the population and I'd rather have Assad than ISIL.
'I'd be very much in favour of closing until further notice all Muslim schools until they prove as a collective group that they're free of all the most unattractive elements of their faith.
They simply can't be trusted any longer. It may be a dozen bad apples - but that's too many in my view. Other religious schools don't have the same baggage'.
Unfortunately the poison is not just confined to Muslim schools but also state schools as we witnessed in Birmingham. But closing Muslim schools would be a good start.
Police questioning man with fire arm
"THere is a poster on here called Roger who really is a despicable piece of work, earlier on this thread he said that if it was up to me there would be no Jews left."
What I said was this.
"The truth is that if you follow the logic of the Isams and Blackburn's (and several other posters on here) there would be no Jews to escort to synagogues in Sweden (or here)."
Which was my response to this:
"
Enoch Powell predicted this would happen, Farage has been warning this would happen... the people in power, and those who worship at their feet, have smeared them and denounced their predictions to the detriment of us all"
Enoch Powell didn't believe anyone who was not of English heritage could assimilate nor should.
Earlier today you were called vermin, I think that's a fair description.
FN doesn't have to be in the same league as NSDAP in order for their election not to be desirable.
@HurstLlama Well, I don't agree with religious schools. I don't believe religion has any place within the Education system. That's my position.
Invasion of Poland 1920, Invasion of Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in 1939, Invasion of Finland 1940. Annexation of Bessarabia 1940. Invasion of Hungary 1956, Invasion of Czechoslovakia 1968. Invasion of Afghanistan 1979.
Then there are all the wars by proxy from Korea to Angola.
I think they're just as aggressive as the Fascist powers.
https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/665560235550052357
If some PBers think Front Nationale being elected is a good thing, or desirable that's fine. Personally, I don't think the rise of the far-right is a very good thing at all.
@Alanbrooke Somehow, I think 90% of PB has already gone over that rather explosive topic and more.
WWII was round four of a conflict that can be traced back to 1806; or, if that's too far, 1870.
I know the 'far right' is a modern bogeyman. Where are they? Where are the atrocities committed by the far right post 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali and many others too numerous to list? I just don't see it. Le Pen is a nationalist. Her father is a much more unpleasant critter, that I will grant you.
The Nazis may have well been called the National Socialists, but in pretty much most discussions they are not seen as associated with totalitarian forms of 'socialism' in the same way Stalin was. For a start the Nazis - courtsey of their Brownshirts - went around intimidating and beating up communists.
On WW2; I never said that the rise in far-right, and militaristic governments was the only cause; as I stated before I said it was 'one of the causes', and 'contributed' to the outbreak of WW2. I'm well aware of the other reasons behind WW2.
If you're relaxed about the rise of the far-right, again that's fine. I'm not though.
I am finding the argument that electing the Front Nationale and Geert Wilders' party will be the cause of another world war really baffling.
Agree about the whole thing been festering since the 1860’s, though. Although I never did O Level History.
Do they need them to claim their virgins?