Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
One hopeful straw in the wind is that both Farage and Hitchens have been feted by Twitter (not my feed but generally) on the last two QTs
Quite an interesting article "Looking for Nigel", written by someone who followed Farage on the election trail:
"And somewhere along the line it became strangely moving. As we visited endless locations where unemployment and austerity have ravaged people’s lives, it was a daily grind of seeing people who feel utterly let down and disenfranchised by the political system. Most aren’t inherently racist, the accusation levelled most heavily at the party for their right-wing views, but are laying their fears and sense of powerlessness at the door of immigration and the European Union. And here he was, almost in Westminster, a leader, the man they’d been waiting for, who despite his own privileged background, makes these people feel that he understands their needs and would look out for their interests, not just those of the wealthy, the highly educated, the cosmopolitan, the middle and upper classes." https://mousephoto.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/looking-for-nigel/
Yes indeed.. Written by someone who was not a fan of Farage... I believe Tissue Price linked this just after the election
It would be interesting to have a like/dislike of Farage poll on here and compare with the real world
Common sense would be to have the most popular leader in Britain campaigning on the issue most people are concerned about...I think REMAIN know this and are succeeding in making LEAVE believe Farage is a liability
Anyone watch the apprentice last night btw - Elle Stephenson surely has to hope there is enough z list celebrity work to keep a roof over her head now I suspect. That must have been the most disastrous Project Manager performance I've ever seen given it really wasn't too far off her dayjob.
As a wider observation, the committed (on both sides) see this in a completely different light from the uncommitted. In many ways the Remain faithful and the Leave faithful have more in common with each other than they do with those who have yet to make their minds up.
Yes, that is an extremely perceptive point.
Alex Massie has written a very interesting article which touches on that, relating it to IndyRef:
But Hannan is right to suggest that vanishingly few folk on this blessed isle are intimately or emotionally attached to the idea of the european idea. In its warmer moments enthusiasm for the EU is tepid.
This cuts both ways, however. Just leaving the EU, while arguably sub-optimal, is not the road to hell nor is remaining a member of the european institutions the road to national perdition. It might not be ideal; it is scarcely intolerable. Or, if you prefer, the sense it is intolerable is not widely shared.
Which is why many people scratch their head when they see people like, to choose a notable example, Dan Hannan thundering on that leaving the EU is the only way to ‘restore our national independence’ or recover ‘freedoms enjoyed in recent memory’. They scratch their heads and think: what in the name of the wee man is he talking about?
... For instance, of the £14 billion sent to the EU, how much might we realistically SAVE? I assume the cost for either accessing EEA services or for repatriating functions and having a rutting season of the quangos is going to be non-zero. ...
It's not really a question of 'how much do you save' but how can you deploy the funds available in the most effective way.
For instance, a big component of our contribution to the EU is to cover agricultural subsidies.
Assuming, for instance, that we want to maintain agricultural subsidies at a similar level (which we may choose not to) then I would imagine we would design a structure that is optimised for British farmers - and perhaps targeted at those in need (e.g. hill farmers rather than agribusinesses) - rather than one which is structured for French small-holders.
You highlight the sort of valid sceptical consideration around which a sensible debate could be had, but it bears not the slightest resemblance to how Leave.EU were portraying the £14 billion in the posters Mike highlighted on yesterday's thread.
The SNP has maintained a large lead over Labour in the latest TNS poll, which also shows Nicola Sturgeon riding high as the most popular political leader in Scotland, with Labour’s new leadership struggling to attract support.
In a survey of 1034 adults over 16 in Scotland, 58% of those expressing a preference said they intended to vote SNP in the constituency section of the May 2016 elections to the Scottish parliament, up two percentage points on the previous month. Labour gained three points to stand at 24%, with the Conservatives on 12% (unchanged) and the Liberal Democrats on 4% (-2).
In the regional vote, 52% backed the SNP (unchanged) with 25% for Labour (+2), 11% for the Conservatives (unchanged), 5% for the Liberal Democrats (-1) and 5% for the Greens (unchanged).
Anyone watch the apprentice last night btw - Elle Stephenson surely has to hope there is enough z list celebrity work to keep a roof over her head now I suspect. That must have been the most disastrous Project Manager performance I've ever seen given it really wasn't too far off her dayjob.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
One hopeful straw in the wind is that both Farage and Hitchens have been feted by Twitter (not my feed but generally) on the last two QTs
Quite an interesting article "Looking for Nigel", written by someone who followed Farage on the election trail:
"And somewhere along the line it became strangely moving. As we visited endless locations where unemployment and austerity have ravaged people’s lives, it was a daily grind of seeing people who feel utterly let down and disenfranchised by the political system. Most aren’t inherently racist, the accusation levelled most heavily at the party for their right-wing views, but are laying their fears and sense of powerlessness at the door of immigration and the European Union. And here he was, almost in Westminster, a leader, the man they’d been waiting for, who despite his own privileged background, makes these people feel that he understands their needs and would look out for their interests, not just those of the wealthy, the highly educated, the cosmopolitan, the middle and upper classes." https://mousephoto.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/looking-for-nigel/
Yes indeed.. Written by someone who was not a fan of Farage... I believe Tissue Price linked this just after the election
It would be interesting to have a like/dislike of Farage poll on here and compare with the real world
I am sure that the results would be very different, not least because this site is largely made up of people of the type that Farage does not appeal to or, I suspect, particularly care about. Those who have the luxury of time to post on a politics web site during the working day are not, on the whole, those who are negatively affected by the matters he campaigns on.
And with that I am off back to the IVth century. Play nicely, all.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
So by the next GE, Labour should be on ~ 45% or so (Conservative estimate)
Go on, I'll be generous you can have 9-4 Labour 20 or more seats (In Scotland) at the next GE.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
So by the next GE, Labour should be on ~ 45% or so (Conservative estimate)
Go on, I'll be generous you can have 9-4 Labour 20 or more seats (In Scotland) at the next GE.
On topic, from last night, I reckon this is a game changer in Leave's favour
This will move quite a few to Leave, the French want us in the EU.
@GerardAraud: #Brexit. Yes we want Britain in the EU but it is a crisis by the British for the British, that no other EU member considers as necessary.
Gerard Araud est de l'Ambassadeur de France aux Etats-Unis
That falls into the "He would say that, wouldn't he" category.
I don't think France has ever been particularly keen on British entry and would not be distraught if we left. Much of what I dislike about the EU's structure and approach is basically French ("l'etat c'est moi") and is one reason why it sits so uneasily with the British approach. The EU allowed France to have a more dominant role in Europe post-war than its underlying economic strength ever justified, which is why the French political class are so keen on it.
The interesting point for me for the future is whether and how the Franco-German alliance will develop as Germany's relative strength increases and it becomes more and more inclined to throw its weight around.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
Only a few years ago, Labour enjoyed the type polling in Scotland that the SNP is now showing. Sooner or later the Nat bubble will burst.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
Only a few years ago, Labour enjoyed the type polling in Scotland that the SNP is now showing. Sooner or later the Nat bubble will burst.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
Only a few years ago, Labour enjoyed the type polling in Scotland that the SNP is now showing. Sooner or later the Nat bubble will burst.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
No, you're missing part of the picture.
Yes, there may be some "core vote" return from Green to Labour but it is small. What you also don't get is what Solidarity on the new SSP led alliance are doing, as they aren't prompted for.
If the Greens are losing votes its because they are losing No voters and they are much more split between Yes and No than you might think.
There is virtually no rational for voting SNP Seat, Labour List. It's logically and rationally unsound.
Anyone watch the apprentice last night btw - Elle Stephenson surely has to hope there is enough z list celebrity work to keep a roof over her head now I suspect. That must have been the most disastrous Project Manager performance I've ever seen given it really wasn't too far off her dayjob.
Asked to suggest a replacement term for Labour MPs who oppose Corbyn, Lewis suggested various options: “Malcontents. Destabilising elements. They are the right of the party. Jeremy Corbyn and the socialist campaign group used to be called rebels – so why not call them rebels?”
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
Four men arrested in England as total of 17 held over ‘Europe-wide jihadi plot to attack British diplomats in a bid to spring the ISIS-supporting cell’s leader from jail in Norway’
North East Counter Terrorism Unit said four men had been arrested in UK Seventeen people were targeted in raids across Europe included Italy Suspects travelled to Iraq and Syria to to fight alongside jihadist groups Investigators said the network was trying to free Najmuddin Ahmad Faraj
One hopeful straw in the wind is that both Farage and Hitchens have been feted by Twitter (not my feed but generally) on the last two QTs
Quite an interesting article "Looking for Nigel", written by someone who followed Farage on the election trail:
"And somewhere along the line it became strangely moving. As we visited endless locations where unemployment and austerity have ravaged people’s lives, it was a daily grind of seeing people who feel utterly let down and disenfranchised by the political system. Most aren’t inherently racist, the accusation levelled most heavily at the party for their right-wing views, but are laying their fears and sense of powerlessness at the door of immigration and the European Union. And here he was, almost in Westminster, a leader, the man they’d been waiting for, who despite his own privileged background, makes these people feel that he understands their needs and would look out for their interests, not just those of the wealthy, the highly educated, the cosmopolitan, the middle and upper classes." https://mousephoto.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/looking-for-nigel/
Yes indeed.. Written by someone who was not a fan of Farage... I believe Tissue Price linked this just after the election
It would be interesting to have a like/dislike of Farage poll on here and compare with the real world
Common sense would be to have the most popular leader in Britain campaigning on the issue most people are concerned about...I think REMAIN know this and are succeeding in making LEAVE believe Farage is a liability
I disagree. This is based on assumptions (I haven't checked polling data), but those people who like and respect Farage are most likely disproportionately going to be backing Leave anyway. He has an important role in securing their vote and ensuring they turn out. But to win you need to appeal to those who are not yet convinced but persuadable - and I suspect that Farage's ratings are a lot less strong in that segment
As a wider observation, the committed (on both sides) see this in a completely different light from the uncommitted. In many ways the Remain faithful and the Leave faithful have more in common with each other than they do with those who have yet to make their minds up.
Yes, that is an extremely perceptive point.
Alex Massie has written a very interesting article which touches on that, relating it to IndyRef:
But Hannan is right to suggest that vanishingly few folk on this blessed isle are intimately or emotionally attached to the idea of the european idea. In its warmer moments enthusiasm for the EU is tepid.
This cuts both ways, however. Just leaving the EU, while arguably sub-optimal, is not the road to hell nor is remaining a member of the european institutions the road to national perdition. It might not be ideal; it is scarcely intolerable. Or, if you prefer, the sense it is intolerable is not widely shared.
Which is why many people scratch their head when they see people like, to choose a notable example, Dan Hannan thundering on that leaving the EU is the only way to ‘restore our national independence’ or recover ‘freedoms enjoyed in recent memory’. They scratch their heads and think: what in the name of the wee man is he talking about?
... For instance, of the £14 billion sent to the EU, how much might we realistically SAVE? I assume the cost for either accessing EEA services or for repatriating functions and having a rutting season of the quangos is going to be non-zero. ...
It's not really a question of 'how much do you save' but how can you deploy the funds available in the most effective way.
For instance, a big component of our contribution to the EU is to cover agricultural subsidies.
Assuming, for instance, that we want to maintain agricultural subsidies at a similar level (which we may choose not to) then I would imagine we would design a structure that is optimised for British farmers - and perhaps targeted at those in need (e.g. hill farmers rather than agribusinesses) - rather than one which is structured for French small-holders.
You highlight the sort of valid sceptical consideration around which a sensible debate could be had, but it bears not the slightest resemblance to how Leave.EU were portraying the £14 billion in the posters Mike highlighted on yesterday's thread.
It's more than linguistic. If you can define someone as outside the pale then there is no obligation to engage with their arguments. It's the replacement of debate of ideas with ad hominem politics. "You are a racist/Little Englander/Zionist/Leftie/public school educated/chav/whatever.... therefore I can ignore what you are saying."
It goes even further. By delegitimising the person first you then delegitimise the argument that person makes.
So to take a (no doubt) controversial example: if a Jew complains about anti-Semitism, it is easier to say that they are a Zionist and therefore they are trying to use the anti-Semitism card to stop someone making a criticism of Israel or Zionism in general and therefore can be ignored. Note that two things are happening: (1) the person being complained about turns themselves into a victim by attacking the person who made the complaint; and (2) there is a refusal to engage with the question i.e. was what was being complained about anti-Semitic or not?
The same can be seen when, say, those arguing against some Tory policy on benefits are treated as not worth listening to because they are unemployed and/or lazy and/or on the left, as if their arguments cannot therefore have any merit.
I expect we are all inclined to do it to a greater or lesser extent: it's hard to engage with ideas and debates, harder still to accept that your opponent might have a point and easier to indulge in vulgar abuse.
But it's a worrying development nonetheless, like all the "safe space" / "check your privilege" nonsense. All this fear of ideas and hearing something that you might not like, might challenge your view of something: it's both childish and sinister.
So, for now It is in the interests of everyone to publically shut up, hunker down, keep the internal fights to a few probing tests of relative irrelevancies, and wait until Corbyn’s failure or success becomes obvious to all. ...This charade will continue for a while
In other words, in terms of outright civil war you ain't seen nothing yet.
There is virtually no rational for voting SNP Seat, Labour List. It's logically and rationally unsound.
I know - there's probably voter churn that we can't see. What I was really hinting at is that Corbyn may be winning over some Green support in Scotland. As Pulpstar hinted at - that isn't exactly a big chunk of the electorate to be winning over.
It comes down to whether we want to live in the country that Britain has become. Comfortable with all races creeds sexual orientation etc or whether we prefer a narrow nationalism. Even if that's not how it should be seen be I'm sure that that's how the argument will eventually break down.
It will be framed as a battle against 'little englanders' and as I said before the country has moved on
I like a Britain comfortable with all races, creeds, sexual orientation etc but I don't associate that principally with the EU frankly. For me, the issue is the fundamentally undemocratic bureaucratic top-down approach of the EU which risks damaging exactly this sort of open relaxed society. And the question of self-government matters, it seems to me, if you value democracy.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
I thought Roger thought that the UK under the Tories was like the UK in the Children of Men. It seems he's comfortable with it after all.
However, I'm not completely comfortable with modern Britain. One thing the expenses scandal and various child sex scandals demonstrate is that some people with political influence take the view that the law does not apply to them, and some people in authority are willing to look on, or look the other way, as the law is broken. And, I think that that type of corrupt political culture is endemic in EU political institutions.
Those Scottish figures appear to be showing a slight rise in the Labour share at the expense of the Greens. Could we see people voting SNP for the constituency and Labour for the list?
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
I was looking at the long term trend on the website infographic: http://bit.ly/1MCVkJy
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
Only a few years ago, Labour enjoyed the type polling in Scotland that the SNP is now showing. Sooner or later the Nat bubble will burst.
When is the last time Labour polled over 50% in the Scotland.
The answer is never. The best they've managed in the last 40 years 45.6%. In 1997.
At Holyrood they've never been above 40% on the Constituency vote.
This is unprecedented stuff and while surely the bubble will burst I don't think you can draw parallels with what has gone before.
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
However, I'm not completely comfortable with modern Britain. One thing the expenses scandal and various child sex scandals demonstrate is that some people with political influence take the view that the law does not apply to them, and some people in authority are willing to look on, or look the other way, as the law is broken. And, I think that that type of corrupt political culture is endemic in EU political institutions.
Bit of a non-sequitur there. I'm not sure how you relate the expenses and child sex scandals to the EU, they were nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. What's more, though different EU countries vary considerably, a large proportion of the least corrupt states on the planet (which includes the UK, BTW) are EU members.
There is virtually no rational for voting SNP Seat, Labour List. It's logically and rationally unsound.
I know - there's probably voter churn that we can't see. What I was really hinting at is that Corbyn may be winning over some Green support in Scotland. As Pulpstar hinted at - that isn't exactly a big chunk of the electorate to be winning over.
Yes, we're talking about tiny numbers.
The main thing for the Green vote - and to an extent how many seats Labour and the Tories might lose - will be the success or failure of the "SNP Seat, Green List" campaign as we approach May 2016.
It was prominent on twitter and elsewhere following the referendum and showed up now and again until the Westminster election, now it's background noise. However, I expect this to feature heavily in the run up to Holyrood.
There will be a split in the commentariat as we approach, with Wings, ScotGoesPop, probably Lallands calling for SNP/SNP with Common Space, Bella calling for SNP/Green. The Socialists polluting the message might have an even bigger impact.
So, for now It is in the interests of everyone to publically shut up, hunker down, keep the internal fights to a few probing tests of relative irrelevancies, and wait until Corbyn’s failure or success becomes obvious to all. ...This charade will continue for a while
In other words, in terms of outright civil war you ain't seen nothing yet.
Labour will fall asleep and whilst it is asleep its body will be snatched by the pod in the basement. But really does it matter? Labour are exposed as split and overwhelmingly useless.
However, I'm not completely comfortable with modern Britain. One thing the expenses scandal and various child sex scandals demonstrate is that some people with political influence take the view that the law does not apply to them, and some people in authority are willing to look on, or look the other way, as the law is broken. And, I think that that type of corrupt political culture is endemic in EU political institutions.
Bit of a non-sequitur there. I'm not sure how you relate the expenses and child sex scandals to the EU, they were nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. What's more, though different EU countries vary considerably, a large proportion of the least corrupt states on the planet (which includes the UK, BTW) are EU members.
What I'm saying is that a culture of corruption is endemic to EU institutions. But, that is not the cause of corruption in UK political institutions.
One hopeful straw in the wind is that both Farage and Hitchens have been feted by Twitter (not my feed but generally) on the last two QTs
Quite an interesting article "Looking for Nigel", written by someone who followed Farage on the election trail:
"And somewhere along the line it became strangely moving. As we visited endless locations where unemployment and austerity have ravaged people’s lives, it was a daily grind of seeing people who feel utterly let down and disenfranchised by the political system. Most aren’t inherently racist, the accusation levelled most heavily at the party for their right-wing views, but are laying their fears and sense of powerlessness at the door of immigration and the European Union. And here he was, almost in Westminster, a leader, the man they’d been waiting for, who despite his own privileged background, makes these people feel that he understands their needs and would look out for their interests, not just those of the wealthy, the highly educated, the cosmopolitan, the middle and upper classes." https://mousephoto.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/looking-for-nigel/
Yes indeed.. Written by someone who was not a fan of Farage... I believe Tissue Price linked this just after the election
It would be interesting to have a like/dislike of Farage poll on here and compare with the real world
Common sense would be to have the most popular leader in Britain campaigning on the issue most people are concerned about...I think REMAIN know this and are succeeding in making LEAVE believe Farage is a liability
I disagree. This is based on assumptions (I haven't checked polling data), but those people who like and respect Farage are most likely disproportionately going to be backing Leave anyway. He has an important role in securing their vote and ensuring they turn out. But to win you need to appeal to those who are not yet convinced but persuadable - and I suspect that Farage's ratings are a lot less strong in that segment
As you confirm in your next post, you don't dirty your mind with Leave.EU anyway... Thing is, you are probably one of the 1% who are sble to see the world in a different way to the common man.
The lofty arguments about technical reform may appeal to those who discuss politics daily, to the rest of the working world, immigration is the key, and they prefer Farage tub thumping to Carswell nuance
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
Yes it is CLEARLY anti-semetic. Which is where you apply a basic test of rationality and ask whether an uncontroversial, middle of the road 64 year old Member of the Scottish Parliament for sixteen years would DELIBERATELY retweet it (whether it is hard or easy to do - and it is very easily done by accident and you probably wouldn't notice).
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
What I'm saying is that a culture of corruption is endemic to EU institutions.
To be honest that is a pretty absurd statement. I am sure you can find some examples, but surely less than in Australia, the US, Canada, or other large countries. And it's very odd to cite what you perceive as corruption in UK institutions as an argument for leaving the EU.
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
Yes it is CLEARLY anti-semetic. Which is where you apply a basic test of rationality and ask whether an uncontroversial, middle of the road 64 year old Member of the Scottish Parliament for sixteen years would DELIBERATELY retweet it (whether it is hard or easy to do - and it is very easily done by accident and you probably wouldn't notice).
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
Its not "very easily done by accident", you have to press the retweet button, then a pop up asks whether you want to retweet or quote tweet.. you cant retweet unless you confirm your original decision
So, for now It is in the interests of everyone to publically shut up, hunker down, keep the internal fights to a few probing tests of relative irrelevancies, and wait until Corbyn’s failure or success becomes obvious to all. ...This charade will continue for a while
In other words, in terms of outright civil war you ain't seen nothing yet.
Watching Healey in action against leftists in the 1970s and early 80s in a documentary the other day and you can see how we've barely begun the civil war.
What I'm saying is that a culture of corruption is endemic to EU institutions.
To be honest that is a pretty absurd statement. I am sure you can find some examples, but surely less than in Australia, the US, Canada, or other large countries. And it's very odd to cite what you perceive as corruption in UK institutions as an argument for leaving the EU.
If you think EU institutions are uncorrupt, we'll just have to agree to differ.
So, for now It is in the interests of everyone to publically shut up, hunker down, keep the internal fights to a few probing tests of relative irrelevancies, and wait until Corbyn’s failure or success becomes obvious to all. ...This charade will continue for a while
In other words, in terms of outright civil war you ain't seen nothing yet.
Having read the article, I have to say I'm not entirely convinced he is right about the direction of Labour's polling numbers. In a couple of years time we'll be into mid-term blues territory and Osborne's cuts will really be hurting (plus likely to be in another recession, at least if history is any guide). Labour could even take the lead for a while.
What I'm saying is that a culture of corruption is endemic to EU institutions.
To be honest that is a pretty absurd statement. I am sure you can find some examples, but surely less than in Australia, the US, Canada, or other large countries. And it's very odd to cite what you perceive as corruption in UK institutions as an argument for leaving the EU.
If you think EU institutions are uncorrupt, we'll just have to agree to differ.
"The extent of corruption in Europe is "breathtaking" and it costs the EU economy at least 120bn euros (£99bn) annually, the European Commission says.
EU Home Affairs Commissioner Cecilia Malmstroem has presented a full report on the problem.
She said the true cost of corruption was "probably much higher" than 120bn. "
It comes down to whether we want to live in the country that Britain has become. Comfortable with all races creeds sexual orientation etc or whether we prefer a narrow nationalism. Even if that's not how it should be seen be I'm sure that that's how the argument will eventually break down.
It will be framed as a battle against 'little englanders' and as I said before the country has moved on
I like a Britain comfortable with all races, creeds, sexual orientation etc but I don't associate that principally with the EU frankly. For me, the issue is the fundamentally undemocratic bureaucratic top-down approach of the EU which risks damaging exactly this sort of open relaxed society. And the question of self-government matters, it seems to me, if you value democracy.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
Agree entirely. Britain has made huge strides in the last 2 decades in terms of social liberalism and it is a great thing that we now laugh at our bigots (gays causing floods etc) rather than fearing them. I am not sure the same can be said about some of the far right groups across the channel.
However, I'm not completely comfortable with modern Britain. One thing the expenses scandal and various child sex scandals demonstrate is that some people with political influence take the view that the law does not apply to them, and some people in authority are willing to look on, or look the other way, as the law is broken. And, I think that that type of corrupt political culture is endemic in EU political institutions.
Bit of a non-sequitur there. I'm not sure how you relate the expenses and child sex scandals to the EU, they were nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. What's more, though different EU countries vary considerably, a large proportion of the least corrupt states on the planet (which includes the UK, BTW) are EU members.
You're being disingenuous, Mr N. It's the view that the law does not apply to them that Sean Fear was referring to. That is explicit law in some European countries which exempt legislators and Presidents from the law while they are in office, a most unhealthy practice.
EU states may be relatively uncorrupt in the world. But, really, there have been enough corruption scandals within Italy and France and within the EU itself that it's being a bit "see no evil" to claim that there is no problem.
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
Yes it is CLEARLY anti-semetic. Which is where you apply a basic test of rationality and ask whether an uncontroversial, middle of the road 64 year old Member of the Scottish Parliament for sixteen years would DELIBERATELY retweet it (whether it is hard or easy to do - and it is very easily done by accident and you probably wouldn't notice).
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
Its not "very easily done by accident", you have to press the retweet button, then a pop up asks whether you want to retweet or quote tweet.. you cant retweet unless you confirm your original decision
I've retweeted a couple of times by accident due to my phone being a laggy piece of shit, screen starts to lag then inputs get buffered.
As you confirm in your next post, you don't dirty your mind with Leave.EU anyway... Thing is, you are probably one of the 1% who are sble to see the world in a different way to the common man.
The lofty arguments about technical reform may appeal to those who discuss politics daily, to the rest of the working world, immigration is the key, and they prefer Farage tub thumping to Carswell nuance
It's not a question of "dirtying my mind" - just simply that their arguments don't appeal to me, and I don't particularly like or respect the likes of Aaron Banks.
The question is who is the best public face. To get the WWC out to vote the tub thumping public meetings, etc is great. But if that's the media image as well it will restrict the vote to UKIP/UKIP-leaning. You need to have someone that the media is willing to believe is less one-note than Farage (regardless of whether that is a fair representation or not, that is one they have) so that the presentation of the Leave campaign is more balanced and able to appeal to a broader spectrum.
Tony Blair, sorry Nick Clegg, has a new book out 'Politics: The Art Of The Possible In An Age Of Unresaon'
If you remember Tony, sorry Nick, he was the former EU official who bravely decided to enter the minefield of British politics. Sadly Nick was to find out that the voters weren't as reasonable as the people in Brussels and he got a bloody nose for his efforts. It would perhaps be understandable for him to tell the voters to s*d off but instead he's going to magnanimously explain to them why they are so wrong.
Funny how people who "accidentally" retweet stuff, or have their account "hacked" only seem to do so when they have posted something offensive or bloody stupid.
EU states may be relatively uncorrupt in the world. But, really, there have been enough corruption scandals within Italy and France and within the EU itself that it's being a bit "see no evil" to claim that there is no problem.
Who said there was no problem? There's always a problem of corruption, in every country in the world, in every age. But the idea that the EU as an institution is unusually bad in this respect is risible, bordering on loony; overall it has been a hugely effective force in reducing corruption, which is one reason why it is so popular in eastern and southern Europe.
What's more, Sean seems to think the UK is more corrupt than it used to be. That strikes me as, to put it politely, bollocks. I don't know what golden age he's thinking of, but I'm pretty certain that if he names any date when he thinks the UK was less corrupt than it is now, it would be easy to shoot him down.
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
Yes it is CLEARLY anti-semetic. Which is where you apply a basic test of rationality and ask whether an uncontroversial, middle of the road 64 year old Member of the Scottish Parliament for sixteen years would DELIBERATELY retweet it (whether it is hard or easy to do - and it is very easily done by accident and you probably wouldn't notice).
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
It's a good job Nats never indulge in nasty vindictive bullying.
I like a Britain comfortable with all races, creeds, sexual orientation etc but I don't associate that principally with the EU frankly. For me, the issue is the fundamentally undemocratic bureaucratic top-down approach of the EU which risks damaging exactly this sort of open relaxed society. And the question of self-government matters, it seems to me, if you value democracy.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
I think it's largely FPTP that prevents very similar voting patterns in Britain (and would you feel that Farage is really worlds apart from Fini?). I'd put Britain somewhere in the upper middle of the European pack with respect to tolerance of races, creeds, etc. - behind Germany and Scandinavia, ahead of France and many Eastern European countries. There is more hostility to consistent tolerance (which critics call "political correctness") in Britain than on much of the Continent - in a funny sort of way, our relaxed culture makes us more tolerant of intolerance ("it was only a joke", "he's not altogether wrong", "it's understandable", etc.).
Funny how people who "accidentally" retweet stuff, or have their account "hacked" only seem to do so when they have posted something offensive or bloody stupid.
If someone hacked my account and posted something untypically witty or insightful I'd probably let it go. Or complain quietly.
What I'm saying is that a culture of corruption is endemic to EU institutions.
To be honest that is a pretty absurd statement. I am sure you can find some examples, but surely less than in Australia, the US, Canada, or other large countries. And it's very odd to cite what you perceive as corruption in UK institutions as an argument for leaving the EU.
On another note, the error ridden Oxfordshire letters must be the most jaw droppingly hopeless thing Cameron has done in a long, long time.
The Labour move on parliamentary process is just an niggly opening shot for something they hope will get the kind of wider vague public awareness as, for example, the pasty tax stuck to Osborne. Must admit, playing this kind of Westminster awkward squad game is where Corbyn looks most at home, he seems to be having much more consistent success with it than Miliband ever did (the arithmetic of the houses, of course, favours him better).
I like a Britain comfortable with all races, creeds, sexual orientation etc but I don't associate that principally with the EU frankly. For me, the issue is the fundamentally undemocratic bureaucratic top-down approach of the EU which risks damaging exactly this sort of open relaxed society. And the question of self-government matters, it seems to me, if you value democracy.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
I think it's largely FPTP that prevents very similar voting patterns in Britain (and would you feel that Farage is really worlds apart from Fini?). I'd put Britain somewhere in the upper middle of the European pack with respect to tolerance of races, creeds, etc. - behind Germany and Scandinavia, ahead of France and many Eastern European countries. There is more hostility to consistent tolerance (which critics call "political correctness") in Britain than on much of the Continent - in a funny sort of way, our relaxed culture makes us more tolerant of intolerance ("it was only a joke", "he's not altogether wrong", "it's understandable", etc.).
Behind Germany and Scandinavia? Remind me was it Norway where the bloke blew up a building and took a machine gun to half the Socialist Youth? Is it Germany where police use water cannon and pepper spray at far right riots? The police are equal opportunists, they do the same for the far left riots as well.
As you confirm in your next post, you don't dirty your mind with Leave.EU anyway... Thing is, you are probably one of the 1% who are sble to see the world in a different way to the common man.
The lofty arguments about technical reform may appeal to those who discuss politics daily, to the rest of the working world, immigration is the key, and they prefer Farage tub thumping to Carswell nuance
It's not a question of "dirtying my mind" - just simply that their arguments don't appeal to me, and I don't particularly like or respect the likes of Aaron Banks.
The question is who is the best public face. To get the WWC out to vote the tub thumping public meetings, etc is great. But if that's the media image as well it will restrict the vote to UKIP/UKIP-leaning. You need to have someone that the media is willing to believe is less one-note than Farage (regardless of whether that is a fair representation or not, that is one they have) so that the presentation of the Leave campaign is more balanced and able to appeal to a broader spectrum.
Fair enough, I respect you can choose to listen to whoever you want
I think where we are differing is the number of people that need to be "tub thumped"... millions of WWC only see the EU in terms of immigration and the effect it has on their lives.. I think these are the crucial voters
People like yourself, and many other PBers are engaged with politics enough to find out for themselves or be aware already of the various arguments.. I find it quite extraordinary that such politically engaged people are reliant on campaigns to guide their vote.
Much as I think Farage has done a great job, I like him because he agrees with me on most subjects, I don't choose those subjects because he is vocal on them. That's why I cant understand Cameroons waiting to see what Cameron says before making up their minds.. they must know what they think?!
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
I don't use twitter, so I don't know how easy it is to retweet by accident.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
Yes it is CLEARLY anti-semetic. Which is where you apply a basic test of rationality and ask whether an uncontroversial, middle of the road 64 year old Member of the Scottish Parliament for sixteen years would DELIBERATELY retweet it (whether it is hard or easy to do - and it is very easily done by accident and you probably wouldn't notice).
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
Its not "very easily done by accident", you have to press the retweet button, then a pop up asks whether you want to retweet or quote tweet.. you cant retweet unless you confirm your original decision
I've retweeted a couple of times by accident due to my phone being a laggy piece of shit, screen starts to lag then inputs get buffered.
"Favouriting" something is easily done by accident.. its a one click thing where you can just have touched the screen.. following someone is also easily done by accident.. I followed tim once by mistake!
I like a Britain comfortable with all races, creeds, sexual orientation etc but I don't associate that principally with the EU frankly. For me, the issue is the fundamentally undemocratic bureaucratic top-down approach of the EU which risks damaging exactly this sort of open relaxed society. And the question of self-government matters, it seems to me, if you value democracy.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
I think it's largely FPTP that prevents very similar voting patterns in Britain (and would you feel that Farage is really worlds apart from Fini?). I'd put Britain somewhere in the upper middle of the European pack with respect to tolerance of races, creeds, etc. - behind Germany and Scandinavia, ahead of France and many Eastern European countries. There is more hostility to consistent tolerance (which critics call "political correctness") in Britain than on much of the Continent - in a funny sort of way, our relaxed culture makes us more tolerant of intolerance ("it was only a joke", "he's not altogether wrong", "it's understandable", etc.).
I disagree entirely Nick. I have encountered far more overt racism and homophobia in many European countries than in the UK. Casual overt racism is certainly still a serious issue in Norway or Holland. And I am not talking about the sort of un-PC behaviour that you refer to but outright open hostility.
Put it this way I do not want the laws of this country to be determined by countries who have elected Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Gianfranco Fini etc as their leaders. [Edited] And I know they haven't, but they are leaders of parties and that tells you something about the political culture of those countries. That may be fine for France, Italy etc but it's not the political culture that I want in the UK nor do I really want it to determine, for instance, our criminal justice system or our approach to the balance between security and privacy.
Europe has had and still has a dark underbelly and a dark history. Democracy and liberalism are not the default, historically or culturally, for most of Continental Europe. My fear is that in pushing a "European project" ahead of the European demos and without the full-hearted consent of European peoples those who do so will be more likely to reanimate those dark currents.
I think it's largely FPTP that prevents very similar voting patterns in Britain (and would you feel that Farage is really worlds apart from Fini?). I'd put Britain somewhere in the upper middle of the European pack with respect to tolerance of races, creeds, etc. - behind Germany and Scandinavia, ahead of France and many Eastern European countries. There is more hostility to consistent tolerance (which critics call "political correctness") in Britain than on much of the Continent - in a funny sort of way, our relaxed culture makes us more tolerant of intolerance ("it was only a joke", "he's not altogether wrong", "it's understandable", etc.).
I'm not a Farage supporter but he is not a Fascist. Fini leads a party which is the explicit descendant of Mussolini's party. I think there is a significant difference - and I'm surprised (and a little disappointed, TBH) - that you should not.
It's that kind of lazy thinking which infuriates me. Fascism is a specific political creed, a nasty one. Being against the EU or unlimited immigration does not make one a fascist.
As ever Orwell had it right: "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable"."
FPTP may have something to do with it but is not the main reason. We are a largely pragmatic bottom up sort of a county where practicality matters more than theory. Partly as a result of that (and many other factors) we have not been prey to or have resisted the furiously murderous passions which have enveloped other European countries despite being, often, subject to the same political and economic whirlwinds. That is to Britain's credit and something to be proud of. It does sometimes feel that those who are in favour of the EU think that Britain's pride in itself is somehow a bad thing.
Comments
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/664762450588356608
We're talking about well within the margin of error and the actual changes are from the Kippers and Liberals. It's good to see that the Kippers will continue to be unrepresented at Holyrood.
It would be interesting to have a like/dislike of Farage poll on here and compare with the real world
Common sense would be to have the most popular leader in Britain campaigning on the issue most people are concerned about...I think REMAIN know this and are succeeding in making LEAVE believe Farage is a liability
Joseph was good and I fancy Vanna
Back in May the Greens were on 10% for the list vote - they are now on 5, while Labour has increased from 19 to 25.
And with that I am off back to the IVth century. Play nicely, all.
Go on, I'll be generous you can have 9-4 Labour 20 or more seats (In Scotland) at the next GE.
I don't think France has ever been particularly keen on British entry and would not be distraught if we left. Much of what I dislike about the EU's structure and approach is basically French ("l'etat c'est moi") and is one reason why it sits so uneasily with the British approach. The EU allowed France to have a more dominant role in Europe post-war than its underlying economic strength ever justified, which is why the French political class are so keen on it.
The interesting point for me for the future is whether and how the Franco-German alliance will develop as Germany's relative strength increases and it becomes more and more inclined to throw its weight around.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/stop-calling-jeremy-corbyns-opponents-moderate-say-pro-corby#.jkezoz7nX
@BuzzFeedUKPol: SNP MSP apologises to Jewish group for retweeting an anti-Semitic cartoon https://t.co/m5qFZ46CTz https://t.co/ORnGh5qcLT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3315183/Migrant-summit-chaos-African-countries-REFUSE-Europe-s-failed-asylum-seekers.html
Yes, there may be some "core vote" return from Green to Labour but it is small. What you also don't get is what Solidarity on the new SSP led alliance are doing, as they aren't prompted for.
If the Greens are losing votes its because they are losing No voters and they are much more split between Yes and No than you might think.
There is virtually no rational for voting SNP Seat, Labour List. It's logically and rationally unsound.
Gets bullied by press and vested interests.
These stories just aren't working.
I also wonder what the SCJC is trying to achieve here. They are coming across as horrible, vindictive bullies. This poor woman is probably utterly distraught at making an error on twitter and faces the worst sort of bullying, not from random internet trolls but from a respected civic institution.
http://www.policy-network.net/pno_detail.aspx?ID=5003&title=The-Corbyn-charade-continues&utm_content=buffer23e82&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Summary: nowhere fast.
But I pretty much ignore Leave.EU anyway.
"You are a racist/Little Englander/Zionist/Leftie/public school educated/chav/whatever.... therefore I can ignore what you are saying."
It goes even further. By delegitimising the person first you then delegitimise the argument that person makes.
So to take a (no doubt) controversial example: if a Jew complains about anti-Semitism, it is easier to say that they are a Zionist and therefore they are trying to use the anti-Semitism card to stop someone making a criticism of Israel or Zionism in general and therefore can be ignored. Note that two things are happening: (1) the person being complained about turns themselves into a victim by attacking the person who made the complaint; and (2) there is a refusal to engage with the question i.e. was what was being complained about anti-Semitic or not?
The same can be seen when, say, those arguing against some Tory policy on benefits are treated as not worth listening to because they are unemployed and/or lazy and/or on the left, as if their arguments cannot therefore have any merit.
I expect we are all inclined to do it to a greater or lesser extent: it's hard to engage with ideas and debates, harder still to accept that your opponent might have a point and easier to indulge in vulgar abuse.
But it's a worrying development nonetheless, like all the "safe space" / "check your privilege" nonsense. All this fear of ideas and hearing something that you might not like, might challenge your view of something: it's both childish and sinister.
The key bit for me was this:
So, for now It is in the interests of everyone to publically shut up, hunker down, keep the internal fights to a few probing tests of relative irrelevancies, and wait until Corbyn’s failure or success becomes obvious to all. ...This charade will continue for a while
In other words, in terms of outright civil war you ain't seen nothing yet.
However, I'm not completely comfortable with modern Britain. One thing the expenses scandal and various child sex scandals demonstrate is that some people with political influence take the view that the law does not apply to them, and some people in authority are willing to look on, or look the other way, as the law is broken. And, I think that that type of corrupt political culture is endemic in EU political institutions.
The answer is never. The best they've managed in the last 40 years 45.6%. In 1997.
At Holyrood they've never been above 40% on the Constituency vote.
This is unprecedented stuff and while surely the bubble will burst I don't think you can draw parallels with what has gone before.
However, the cartoon (which you can find easily by following your link to Buzzfeed) is quite clearly antisemetic - portraying the Rothschilds as a fat sow suckling MI6, the CIA, Mossad/ISIS (equated for some reason) etc.
The main thing for the Green vote - and to an extent how many seats Labour and the Tories might lose - will be the success or failure of the "SNP Seat, Green List" campaign as we approach May 2016.
It was prominent on twitter and elsewhere following the referendum and showed up now and again until the Westminster election, now it's background noise. However, I expect this to feature heavily in the run up to Holyrood.
There will be a split in the commentariat as we approach, with Wings, ScotGoesPop, probably Lallands calling for SNP/SNP with Common Space, Bella calling for SNP/Green. The Socialists polluting the message might have an even bigger impact.
But really does it matter? Labour are exposed as split and overwhelmingly useless.
The lofty arguments about technical reform may appeal to those who discuss politics daily, to the rest of the working world, immigration is the key, and they prefer Farage tub thumping to Carswell nuance
That's why the vindictiveness of the SCJC comes across as such nasty bullying.
EU Home Affairs Commissioner Cecilia Malmstroem has presented a full report on the problem.
She said the true cost of corruption was "probably much higher" than 120bn. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26014387
EU states may be relatively uncorrupt in the world. But, really, there have been enough corruption scandals within Italy and France and within the EU itself that it's being a bit "see no evil" to claim that there is no problem.
The question is who is the best public face. To get the WWC out to vote the tub thumping public meetings, etc is great. But if that's the media image as well it will restrict the vote to UKIP/UKIP-leaning. You need to have someone that the media is willing to believe is less one-note than Farage (regardless of whether that is a fair representation or not, that is one they have) so that the presentation of the Leave campaign is more balanced and able to appeal to a broader spectrum.
If you remember Tony, sorry Nick, he was the former EU official who bravely decided to enter the minefield of British politics. Sadly Nick was to find out that the voters weren't as reasonable as the people in Brussels and he got a bloody nose for his efforts. It would perhaps be understandable for him to tell the voters to s*d off but instead he's going to magnanimously explain to them why they are so wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election
What's more, Sean seems to think the UK is more corrupt than it used to be. That strikes me as, to put it politely, bollocks. I don't know what golden age he's thinking of, but I'm pretty certain that if he names any date when he thinks the UK was less corrupt than it is now, it would be easy to shoot him down.
Besides, aren’t the pollsters still examining what they did wrong at the last GE?
The Labour move on parliamentary process is just an niggly opening shot for something they hope will get the kind of wider vague public awareness as, for example, the pasty tax stuck to Osborne. Must admit, playing this kind of Westminster awkward squad game is where Corbyn looks most at home, he seems to be having much more consistent success with it than Miliband ever did (the arithmetic of the houses, of course, favours him better).
New Thread New Thread
Remind me was it Norway where the bloke blew up a building and took a machine gun to half the Socialist Youth?
Is it Germany where police use water cannon and pepper spray at far right riots? The police are equal opportunists, they do the same for the far left riots as well.
I think where we are differing is the number of people that need to be "tub thumped"... millions of WWC only see the EU in terms of immigration and the effect it has on their lives.. I think these are the crucial voters
People like yourself, and many other PBers are engaged with politics enough to find out for themselves or be aware already of the various arguments.. I find it quite extraordinary that such politically engaged people are reliant on campaigns to guide their vote.
Much as I think Farage has done a great job, I like him because he agrees with me on most subjects, I don't choose those subjects because he is vocal on them. That's why I cant understand Cameroons waiting to see what Cameron says before making up their minds.. they must know what they think?!
It's that kind of lazy thinking which infuriates me. Fascism is a specific political creed, a nasty one. Being against the EU or unlimited immigration does not make one a fascist.
As ever Orwell had it right: "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable"."
FPTP may have something to do with it but is not the main reason. We are a largely pragmatic bottom up sort of a county where practicality matters more than theory. Partly as a result of that (and many other factors) we have not been prey to or have resisted the furiously murderous passions which have enveloped other European countries despite being, often, subject to the same political and economic whirlwinds. That is to Britain's credit and something to be proud of. It does sometimes feel that those who are in favour of the EU think that Britain's pride in itself is somehow a bad thing.