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  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited 2015 11
    Interesting article by David Goodhart on immigration:

    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/6272
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    isam said:

    chestnut said:

    I found myself wondering whether Osborne should simply rename tax credits as income support and then make it taxable like ordinary wages.

    Supplementary Benefits is quite catchy
    Just call it welfare payments.
    Will pensions also be renamed welfare payments?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,817
    Danny565 said:

    isam said:

    chestnut said:

    I found myself wondering whether Osborne should simply rename tax credits as income support and then make it taxable like ordinary wages.

    Supplementary Benefits is quite catchy
    Just call it welfare payments.
    Will pensions also be renamed welfare payments?
    It so depressing how labels seem to influence policy.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    JohnO said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    It seems Marxism has now reached even the Tory backbenches.

    Heidi Allen has suggested cancelling the inheritance tax cut in order to keep tax credits.

    She's a TINO..

    what is a TINO?
    Tory in name only.
    Thanks, a search on the internet does not list that as a top possibility.
    RINO is a common acronym in American politics, TINO is just switching the party label.
    In the days of Thatcher there was TINA, there is no alternative.
    Cameron has TINO, there is no opposition.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :wink:

    JohnO said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    It seems Marxism has now reached even the Tory backbenches.

    Heidi Allen has suggested cancelling the inheritance tax cut in order to keep tax credits.

    She's a TINO..

    what is a TINO?
    Tory in name only.
    Thanks, a search on the internet does not list that as a top possibility.
    RINO is a common acronym in American politics, TINO is just switching the party label.
    In the days of Thatcher there was TINA, there is no alternative.
    Cameron has TINO, there is no opposition.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    :wink:

    JohnO said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    It seems Marxism has now reached even the Tory backbenches.

    Heidi Allen has suggested cancelling the inheritance tax cut in order to keep tax credits.

    She's a TINO..

    what is a TINO?
    Tory in name only.
    Thanks, a search on the internet does not list that as a top possibility.
    RINO is a common acronym in American politics, TINO is just switching the party label.
    In the days of Thatcher there was TINA, there is no alternative.
    Cameron has TINO, there is no opposition.
    There was not mutch opposition to Thatcher between 83 and 87.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    JohnO said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    It seems Marxism has now reached even the Tory backbenches.

    Heidi Allen has suggested cancelling the inheritance tax cut in order to keep tax credits.

    She's a TINO..

    what is a TINO?
    Tory in name only.
    Thanks, a search on the internet does not list that as a top possibility.
    LINO? = Seumas Milne?
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Danny565 said:

    isam said:

    chestnut said:

    I found myself wondering whether Osborne should simply rename tax credits as income support and then make it taxable like ordinary wages.

    Supplementary Benefits is quite catchy
    Just call it welfare payments.
    Will pensions also be renamed welfare payments?
    state welfare pensions
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    :wink:

    JohnO said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    It seems Marxism has now reached even the Tory backbenches.

    Heidi Allen has suggested cancelling the inheritance tax cut in order to keep tax credits.

    She's a TINO..

    what is a TINO?
    Tory in name only.
    Thanks, a search on the internet does not list that as a top possibility.
    RINO is a common acronym in American politics, TINO is just switching the party label.
    In the days of Thatcher there was TINA, there is no alternative.
    Cameron has TINO, there is no opposition.
    There was not mutch opposition to Thatcher between 83 and 87.
    There was Scargill. Part of Thatcher's triple crown. First Galtieri, then King Arthur and the Soviet Empire as finale.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    After today's cricket, somehow & somewhere in the universe = a spurs team is losing badly.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    dr_spyn said:

    Sam Coates Times ‏@SamCoatesTimes 12m12 minutes ago
    Gordon Brown gets increasingly irritated as this interview goes on, and ends on a notably sour note http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/brown-osborne-rip-tax-credit-cuts/31816

    You know he calls the LibDems the 'liberals' on purpose and does it everytime? He knows it annoys them. A bit of respect for that!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Just looking at the GE result

    Labour Michael Meacher 23,630 54.8%

    UKIP Francis Arbour 8,892 20.6%

    Conservative Kamran Ghafoor 8,187 19.0%

    Liberal Democrat Garth Harkness 1,589 3.7%

    Green Simeon Hart 839 1.9%

    Majority 14,738 34.2

    Turnout 43,137 59.6%

    I'd predict a turnout of 40%

    Labour 50%
    Ukip 30%
    Tory 15%
    Lib 5%

    Everyone will claim credit when actually only half a dozen people will give a toss

    My first guess:

    35% turnout

    43% Labour
    24% UKIP
    19% Con
    11% LD
    3% Green and OMRLP
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,598

    antifrank said:

    Meanwhile, in proper politics, the EU is getting more and more bogged down in the tarpit of migrant politics:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/11/eus-deep-dilemmas-over-refugees-laid-bare-at-malta-summit

    Most interesting part for me - Merkel knows she's made a huge mistake:

    "Merkel, however, is increasingly lonely and embattled. Policymakers say privately that she is looking for a way to back down without losing face."
    On the other hand, there's an adulatory cover story in the Economist this week, arguing that she has judged both European and German interests correctly and will roll over the opposition to her policies. The critics are mostly quite weak - the CSU leader is always grumbling but never follows through.

    Personally I think she'll tweak the policies a bit but she's not under serious challenge. There is currently a centre-left majority which could be used against her, but the Germans aren't yet ready to include the Communists in national power like Portugal. If the AfD doubled their vote at CDU expense, it would not alter the arithmetic. And she remains hugely popular with CDU voters - over 70% IIRC.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    Frank Field, who has been giving interviews to mark the report of the DWP Select Committee that he chairs, said it was “rich” of Gordon Brown to deliver lectures on U-turns as his own one on the 10p rate abolition was very slow, ungracious and involved spraying money around in an unfocused way.

    When I put that to Gordon Brown he dismissed Frank Field as a man who had nominated Jeremy Corbyn and then criticised him.

    - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/brown-osborne-rip-tax-credit-cuts/31816#sthash.usB4O22c.dpuf

    What a tw@t...Why doesn't Brown just sod off. Oh wait I know why, because nobody will actually give him a proper job.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Just looking at the GE result

    Labour Michael Meacher 23,630 54.8%

    UKIP Francis Arbour 8,892 20.6%

    Conservative Kamran Ghafoor 8,187 19.0%

    Liberal Democrat Garth Harkness 1,589 3.7%

    Green Simeon Hart 839 1.9%

    Majority 14,738 34.2

    Turnout 43,137 59.6%

    I'd predict a turnout of 40%

    Labour 50%
    Ukip 30%
    Tory 15%
    Lib 5%

    Everyone will claim credit when actually only half a dozen people will give a toss

    My first guess:

    35% turnout

    43% Labour
    24% UKIP
    19% Con
    11% LD
    3% Green and OMRLP
    I doubt that Labour's vote will hold up now that it's in the hands of the militant loony left. UKIP to pull off a sensational win.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    OT. What a pity that when Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister all we saw were his weaknesses. When he addresses himself to issues that he really cares about like child poverty and Scottish independence you see what a talented and passionate leader he could have been.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Roger.. hahhahhhhaaaahhh..the man is and always was a total plonker..
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2015 11

    Frank Field, who has been giving interviews to mark the report of the DWP Select Committee that he chairs, said it was “rich” of Gordon Brown to deliver lectures on U-turns as his own one on the 10p rate abolition was very slow, ungracious and involved spraying money around in an unfocused way.

    When I put that to Gordon Brown he dismissed Frank Field as a man who had nominated Jeremy Corbyn and then criticised him.

    - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/brown-osborne-rip-tax-credit-cuts/31816#sthash.usB4O22c.dpuf

    What a tw@t...Why doesn't Brown just sod off. Oh wait I know why, because nobody will actually give him a proper job.

    It was Brown that fecked Labour, what's happened after is a direct result of his incompetence, Labour have chosen three leaders in a row that are unelectable, and if you don't believe me talk to the man in the street so to speak, the guy filling up a vending machine today was heard to laugh at the mention of Corbyn's name )and said he was completely unelectable..

    NPXMP

    You supported Brown, Miliband and Corbyn????
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    edited 2015 11
    Roger said:

    OT. What a pity that when Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister all we saw were his weaknesses. When he addresses himself to issues that he really cares about like child poverty and Scottish independence you see what a talented and passionate leader he could have been.

    Bullshit...he was totally and utterly incapable of leading. Ask anybody who worked in the machine of government during his time as leader and they will all tell you that decisions weren't been made, paperwork was piling up all waiting for things to be sanctioned etc etc etc.

    The reason he didn't get found out at the treasury was he only had to two dates in the year when decisions had to be made by (and even then he was a disaster).
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Roger said:

    OT. What a pity that when Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister all we saw were his weaknesses. When he addresses himself to issues that he really cares about like child poverty and Scottish independence you see what a talented and passionate leader he could have been.

    It's a myth that Brown's intervention altered the Scottish referendum result, in fact, he's a chief architect of SLab's destruction and the SNP's current prominence.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,624
    dr_spyn said:
    I am no fan of Corbyn, but this is just getting ridiculous. Criticize the man for bonkers policies, there is plenty to go at, e.g his sexist train carriage idea.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Just looking at the GE result

    Labour Michael Meacher 23,630 54.8%

    UKIP Francis Arbour 8,892 20.6%

    Conservative Kamran Ghafoor 8,187 19.0%

    Liberal Democrat Garth Harkness 1,589 3.7%

    Green Simeon Hart 839 1.9%

    Majority 14,738 34.2

    Turnout 43,137 59.6%

    I'd predict a turnout of 40%

    Labour 50%
    Ukip 30%
    Tory 15%
    Lib 5%

    Everyone will claim credit when actually only half a dozen people will give a toss

    My first guess:

    35% turnout

    43% Labour
    24% UKIP
    19% Con
    11% LD
    3% Green and OMRLP
    I doubt that Labour's vote will hold up now that it's in the hands of the militant loony left. UKIP to pull off a sensational win.
    Allowing for the ethnic profile, good local councillor candidate and sympathy vote following an unexpected death rather than scandal related byelection: Safe Labour hold.

    UKIP have a pretty low ceiling and I can think of few elections of any sort where kippers go above 30% and often much less than that.

    Conservative voters in such safe Labour seats seem quite resistant to tactical voting.

    I predict a modest bounceback for the LDs.

    Overall a slightly depressing result for everyone.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,741
    Not sure if anyone spotted this but Con gained another Peer yesterday.

    Not sure how this happened - I'm not talking about Greg Barker (who was introduced yesterday along with Lorely Burt).

    No, all 26 of the new Con Peers recently announced by Cameron were already in the official Parliament website total before yesterday (even though some haven't yet been formally introduced). Someone else got added yesterday.

    The only thing I can think of is that someone previously on a "Leave of Absence" has suddenly terminated that and "returned". I think that's quite rare - would be interesting to know who this is and the background - following those extraordinary turnouts of Con Peers a couple of weeks ago is this another indication they are pulling out all the stops to maximise their vote.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,693

    dr_spyn said:
    I am no fan of Corbyn, but this is just getting ridiculous. Criticize the man for bonkers policies, there is plenty to go at, e.g his sexist train carriage idea.
    He dissents from the British state religion and as a religious dissenter is getting stick accordingly. Tim Farron if he were in Corbyn's place would get it too (as a man who has an actual religion).
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476

    Roger said:

    OT. What a pity that when Gordon Brown took over as Prime Minister all we saw were his weaknesses. When he addresses himself to issues that he really cares about like child poverty and Scottish independence you see what a talented and passionate leader he could have been.

    It's a myth that Brown's intervention altered the Scottish referendum result, in fact, he's a chief architect of SLab's destruction and the SNP's current prominence.
    You'd need a heart of stone etc
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,958

    Just looking at the GE result

    Labour Michael Meacher 23,630 54.8%

    UKIP Francis Arbour 8,892 20.6%

    Conservative Kamran Ghafoor 8,187 19.0%

    Liberal Democrat Garth Harkness 1,589 3.7%

    Green Simeon Hart 839 1.9%

    Majority 14,738 34.2

    Turnout 43,137 59.6%

    I'd predict a turnout of 40%

    Labour 50%
    Ukip 30%
    Tory 15%
    Lib 5%

    Everyone will claim credit when actually only half a dozen people will give a toss

    My first guess:

    35% turnout

    43% Labour
    24% UKIP
    19% Con
    11% LD
    3% Green and OMRLP
    I doubt that Labour's vote will hold up now that it's in the hands of the militant loony left. UKIP to pull off a sensational win.
    Will there be a PB competition?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    antifrank said:

    Meanwhile, in proper politics, the EU is getting more and more bogged down in the tarpit of migrant politics:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/11/eus-deep-dilemmas-over-refugees-laid-bare-at-malta-summit

    Most interesting part for me - Merkel knows she's made a huge mistake:

    "Merkel, however, is increasingly lonely and embattled. Policymakers say privately that she is looking for a way to back down without losing face."
    On the other hand, there's an adulatory cover story in the Economist this week, arguing that she has judged both European and German interests correctly and will roll over the opposition to her policies. The critics are mostly quite weak - the CSU leader is always grumbling but never follows through.

    Personally I think she'll tweak the policies a bit but she's not under serious challenge. There is currently a centre-left majority which could be used against her, but the Germans aren't yet ready to include the Communists in national power like Portugal. If the AfD doubled their vote at CDU expense, it would not alter the arithmetic. And she remains hugely popular with CDU voters - over 70% IIRC.
    The Economist makes the Guardian look like the Daily Mail when it comes to immigration.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,693

    Just looking at the GE result

    Labour Michael Meacher 23,630 54.8%

    UKIP Francis Arbour 8,892 20.6%

    Conservative Kamran Ghafoor 8,187 19.0%

    Liberal Democrat Garth Harkness 1,589 3.7%

    Green Simeon Hart 839 1.9%

    Majority 14,738 34.2

    Turnout 43,137 59.6%

    I'd predict a turnout of 40%

    Labour 50%
    Ukip 30%
    Tory 15%
    Lib 5%

    Everyone will claim credit when actually only half a dozen people will give a toss

    My first guess:

    35% turnout

    43% Labour
    24% UKIP
    19% Con
    11% LD
    3% Green and OMRLP
    I doubt that Labour's vote will hold up now that it's in the hands of the militant loony left. UKIP to pull off a sensational win.
    Allowing for the ethnic profile, good local councillor candidate and sympathy vote following an unexpected death rather than scandal related byelection: Safe Labour hold.

    UKIP have a pretty low ceiling and I can think of few elections of any sort where kippers go above 30% and often much less than that.

    Conservative voters in such safe Labour seats seem quite resistant to tactical voting.

    I predict a modest bounceback for the LDs.

    Overall a slightly depressing result for everyone.
    There have been literally two instances of effective Conservative tactical voting in history. Leeds North West and Sheffield, Hallam.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting article by David Goodhart on immigration:

    http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/6272

    God, that's so right.

    David Goodhart is one of the most intelligent and sensible men on the British Left. He was (rightfully) quoted in the Government's balance of competency review of the EU.

    Sadly, his suggestions to curb migration were not taken up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,139
    MikeK said:
    The EU Parliament can block legislation and no one is now suggesting we join the Eurozone
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MikeK said:

    twitter.com/DavidJo52951945/status/664530139322150913

    Bit of a strange cartoon. Is it suggesting that we should leave without a referendum vote?

    Or is it suggesting we should help refugees leaving sinking boats?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited 2015 11
    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2015 11
    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MikeK said:
    Interesting- British asylum seekers landing on a Libyan beach

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited 2015 11

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The reshaping of Corbyn is interesting to watch. He has bought a new suit, worn a poppy on every conceivable occasion, chatted with British military veterans and worn white tie to a State Banquet.

    The animals looked from pig to man, from man to pig, but could no longer see any difference.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    IMHO you're both right and wrong.

    Respect can be shown in different modes and is none the less respect.

    The bowing doesn't matter one iota in itself, and only someone puffed up in their own esteem would take umbrage at it not happening.

    It seems to me that Mr Corbyn's value system is so much out of synch with the rest of us that it's hard for us to recognise what he does respect, or what means he uses to show that respect.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    AnneJGP said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    IMHO you're both right and wrong.

    Respect can be shown in different modes and is none the less respect.

    The bowing doesn't matter one iota in itself, and only someone puffed up in their own esteem would take umbrage at it not happening.

    It seems to me that Mr Corbyn's value system is so much out of synch with the rest of us that it's hard for us to recognise what he does respect, or what means he uses to show that respect.
    I don't know what you mean by the 'rest of us', but speaking personally I find Corbyn's value system is closer to mine than those of the newspaper editors who continually denigrate him. Remember the Sun hacked the phones of the families of dead servicemen. I regard Rupert Murdoch as an enemy of my country and a total shit of a human being. I'll forgive Corbyn a few foibles. I am less inclined to overlook Cameron's appointment of Andy Coulson.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    The perpetually offended right wing are making themselves look ridiculous with this garbage.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited 2015 11
    It's funny.

    The very same media going after Corbyn for his supposed disrespect to QE will be tearing Charles to pieces within months of his coronation.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184

    AnneJGP said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    IMHO you're both right and wrong.

    Respect can be shown in different modes and is none the less respect.

    The bowing doesn't matter one iota in itself, and only someone puffed up in their own esteem would take umbrage at it not happening.

    It seems to me that Mr Corbyn's value system is so much out of synch with the rest of us that it's hard for us to recognise what he does respect, or what means he uses to show that respect.
    I don't know what you mean by the 'rest of us', but speaking personally I find Corbyn's value system is closer to mine than those of the newspaper editors who continually denigrate him. Remember the Sun hacked the phones of the families of dead servicemen. I regard Rupert Murdoch as an enemy of my country and a total shit of a human being. I'll forgive Corbyn a few foibles. I am less inclined to overlook Cameron's appointment of Andy Coulson.
    Yes, I realised after I'd posted it that 'the rest of us' wasn't a good phrase. Manifestly there are lots of people who share his views.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    AnneJGP said:

    Roger said:

    So now we know the hideous truth. Jeremy Corbyn didn't genuflect in front of her Majesty the Queen.

    The wretch should be sent to North Korea. They'd soon teach him how to show respect to a hereditary ruler

    Yes , disrespectful little shit isn't he.. its a question of being respectful, something Corbyn doesn't understand.
    IMHO you're both right and wrong.

    Respect can be shown in different modes and is none the less respect.

    The bowing doesn't matter one iota in itself, and only someone puffed up in their own esteem would take umbrage at it not happening.

    It seems to me that Mr Corbyn's value system is so much out of synch with the rest of us that it's hard for us to recognise what he does respect, or what means he uses to show that respect.
    I regard Rupert Murdoch as an enemy of my country and a total shit of a human being. I'll forgive Corbyn a few foibles.
    Rupert is a Aussie turned American and never very pro-the-country that made his fortune. He has never shown any respect to the Queen or any member of the Royal family and sought to undermine them at every opportunity. He is more like Corbyn than either may want to admit!

This discussion has been closed.