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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Cameron’s view on the referendum could be decisive

SystemSystem Posts: 12,221
edited November 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Cameron’s view on the referendum could be decisive

Look at how Cameron's view will be absolutely crucial in the EU referendum. If he says REMAIN it'll be decisive pic.twitter.com/VAKLvzbpr7

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Comments

  • I'll nod at that.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558
    Much would depend on the party's reaction.

    If, say, Boris rejected the deal and campaigned to Leave, that could negate any recommendation from Cameron.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    It must wind up ukippers to know that Cameron has so much influence over the outcome.....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558
    FPT Isam, Cyclefree, Casino Royale Lenin was surely right when he said politics comes down to Who/Whom.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,269
    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    It is a bit North Korean.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited November 2015
    Perhaps it's time for a theoretical discussion on what leadership actually means....or indeed delegation
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    I'm quite surprised that Cameron is still 100/1 to lead the Leave campaign. I don't think it's likely but I don't think it's a one in a hundred chance either. Surely it's more probable than one in a hundred that the EU won't agree to his demands, and he'd surely have to be quite likely to lead if he were to advocate leaving.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,269
    From 2 threads ago - on the subject of expenses:

    My company doesn't let us claim for lunch, but we can claim for a drink. A colleague tried to claim a cup of soup as a drink - it was refused as soup is classed as food. #cupasoupgate
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    An unflattering interpretation. It could be that people do not like the EU at present, but could accept it following a renegotiation, and trust Cameron enough to believe that renegotiation had achieved what they wanted.

    It would have to be pretty darn amazing to convince me at this point, but even if your interpretation is correct, is it even really that big a deal that plenty of people would trust the view of a party leader on the outcome of a political renegotiation? There are oodles of people on all sides of the spectrum who will go with what a party leader says.
  • This is why it was a mistake for Farage to talk about using the referendum to topple Cameron.

    It'll get the Tories rallying behind Dave even more.

    As David Maxwell Fyfe put it Loyalty is the Tory party's secret weapon.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,269
    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    They might as well have their postal votes sent directly to 10 Downing Street for completion.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536

    From 2 threads ago - on the subject of expenses:

    My company doesn't let us claim for lunch, but we can claim for a drink. A colleague tried to claim a cup of soup as a drink - it was refused as soup is classed as food. #cupasoupgate

    Some companies I've worked for had a set expenses for food and drink for each day you spent in a hotel, varying on which country you were in. You could spend all of it, or pocket it. ISTR at one place it was twenty quid a day.

    It always seemed a much more sensible - and cheaper to administrate - system of expenses for simple trips.

    If you were entertaining clients, then another system kicked in. Although it was a few years ago, it was surprising how far you could make twenty quid spread. ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    They might as well have their postal votes sent directly to 10 Downing Street for completion.
    No other party has ever had loyal drones for followers of course. This is a stunning development, even assuming the worst interpretation!

    Seriously, what is the big deal? We might regard it as stupid to rely so heavily, seemingly, on the view of a single person, but people make decisions for stupid reasons all the time, they are allowed to do that. Out system even relies on it, given we presumably want silly posters and brief leaflets to sway people (as well as shore up a party vote) and deciding on the basis of that amount and type of info is objectively silly too.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,269
    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

  • Is this news? A Scot Nat is abusive.

    Andy Murray drops f-bomb after ball girl accidentally hurls ball at him

    http://bit.ly/1HrjZ3t
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685


    Which is different as I suspect you know.

    Different, Mr. Royale? Why? The only significant difference that I can tell is that the lady has made her own decision as to what to wear, rather than having it, possibly, forced upon her.

    Let us look at another item of clothing, the tie. My father, except for very specific occasions would never be seen out of the house without a tie. I, especially in recent years, may have relaxed that stance somewhat, but mostly I will always wear a tie - there are times when I feel uncomfortable if I am not wearing one. Odd possibly, eccentric in this day and age, probably but it is my choice and others can make of it what they will.

    So if the lady is wearing what she does because she wants to then she is in the same, point and laugh if you want, class as the young lady and her green dreadlocks and me and my tie. If she is wearing it because she has to then there is a problem that society as a whole needs to address.
    Absolutely right.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685
    Sean_F said:

    Much would depend on the party's reaction.

    If, say, Boris rejected the deal and campaigned to Leave, that could negate any recommendation from Cameron.

    The problem with Boris doing that is that there are bound to be recordings of him being very supportive of EU membership to City audiences in the not too recent past.
  • "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,685

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    Well, higher CO2 concentrations are good for plants.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,572

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or don't care that much. The "not too keen on the EU but I suppose it may be necessary" vice is very common, and could well be activated or negated by the recommendation of the party leaders.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Much would depend on the party's reaction.

    If, say, Boris rejected the deal and campaigned to Leave, that could negate any recommendation from Cameron.

    The problem with Boris doing that is that there are bound to be recordings of him being very supportive of EU membership to City audiences in the not too recent past.
    That may not matter to the average Conservative voter. He's glib, and could always come up with some rationale for changing his mind.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Some sense at last!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,709
    Tories have a hive mind? A sort of political Borg/Cyberman?
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Cameron secures vegetable vote for 2020. Midas touch once again.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    :smiley:
    John_M said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Cameron secures vegetable vote for 2020. Midas touch once again.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558
    edited November 2015

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    The whole climate change debate is about worrying about very little. Climates change. We cope with it.
  • rcs1000 said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    Well, higher CO2 concentrations are good for plants.
    Yep
    And more importantly lower energy bills. Win all round.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Russians seem toe getting a drubbing in that Drugs report..
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    rcs1000 said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    Well, higher CO2 concentrations are good for plants.
    And larger insects once plants unload more oxygen.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/06/04/giant-insects-disappeared-thanks-to-falling-oxygen-levels-and-agile-birds/
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Politicians were wrong in 1975, wrong about the ERM, wrong about the Euro and are wrong now. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times...
  • Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or don't care that much. The "not too keen on the EU but I suppose it may be necessary" vice is very common, and could well be activated or negated by the recommendation of the party leaders.
    Both Switzerland and Norway ( your two favorite countries ) don't find the EU necessary.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2015
    Jonathan said:

    Tories have a hive mind? A sort of political Borg/Cyberman?

    No, it's just that the modern conservative party is Cameron's party.
    It's his creation, and people who vote for it trust him, if they didn't they would have voted something else.

    If Corbyn would contemplate any other position he too would have carried his party's base with him, because Labour voters trust Corbyn more than their MP's.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Jonathan said:

    Tories have a hive mind? A sort of political Borg/Cyberman?

    One mind, one purpose.... To eat babies.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    notme said:

    It must wind up ukippers to know that Cameron has so much influence over the outcome.....

    It's the entire reason why UKIP didn't just give up and let the Tories win as Richard Nabavi suggested we should... A PM with the mandate of a majority recommending in carries weight that the PM of a coalition never could... Had Ed Miliband become PM, even though there would be no Referendum, it was so obvious he would be a dud that Cameron's replacement, a more eurosceptic Con, would win next time, hold a referendum, and not campaign so vigorously for REMAIN as Cameron is

    As it is it's likely that Cameron's charade of pretending to be undecided, then recommending REMAIN, will prob see us trapped in the EU for a generation



  • Sean_F said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    The whole climate change debate is about worrying about very little. Climates change. We cope with it.
    There's always some higher ground I suppose.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,994
    edited November 2015
    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    From 2 threads ago - on the subject of expenses:

    My company doesn't let us claim for lunch, but we can claim for a drink. A colleague tried to claim a cup of soup as a drink - it was refused as soup is classed as food. #cupasoupgate

    I didn't know you worked for Diageo
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.

    Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Politicians were wrong in 1975, wrong about the ERM, wrong about the Euro and are wrong now. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times...''

    IN better quit the patronising threats and come up with some solid coherent reasons why we should stay.

    Its almost tempting to vote OUT to watch the establishment cr&p a coconut.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited November 2015
    MP_SE said:

    Politicians were wrong in 1975, wrong about the ERM, wrong about the Euro and are wrong now. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times...

    It's called liberal elitism.
    Most people don't care strongly about liberal things, but centrist politicians do and they usually enforce them, because most others have different priorities than to oppose them on issues of little importance to them.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    They might as well have their postal votes sent directly to 10 Downing Street for completion.
    Isn't that Labour policy now for their "supporters"?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,994
    JJ

    "Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?"

    Ed Miliband
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    JJ

    "Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?"

    Ed Miliband

    No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536
    Off-topic:

    Quite surprised this case is still ongoing:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-34768403

    ISTR he was trying to exploit a loophole (you do not need planning if the structure has stood for x years without complaint) without realising that for this to be the case, the structure must not be deliberately hidden.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Roger said:

    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.

    The problem for Labour is that it doesn't participate on this debate, their MP's have settled their minds on the issue and the EU is not on Corbyn's top list to question them on it.
    The LD are an ex-party, so their opinion matters even less.

    So the focus of the debate is within the Conservative party, between it's more liberal leadership and it's more conservative base with UKIP as a guest star.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I would be all for IQ tests prior to getting a vote on anything. It would have saved Labour from the embarrassment of Corbyn.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    From 2 threads ago - on the subject of expenses:

    My company doesn't let us claim for lunch, but we can claim for a drink. A colleague tried to claim a cup of soup as a drink - it was refused as soup is classed as food. #cupasoupgate

    Some companies I've worked for had a set expenses for food and drink for each day you spent in a hotel, varying on which country you were in. You could spend all of it, or pocket it. ISTR at one place it was twenty quid a day.

    It always seemed a much more sensible - and cheaper to administrate - system of expenses for simple trips.

    If you were entertaining clients, then another system kicked in. Although it was a few years ago, it was surprising how far you could make twenty quid spread. ;)
    My brothers organisation. When abroad on company business there is a daily allowance for hotel and subsistance. He stays in very cheap hotels but dines very well indeed!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,919
    John_M said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Cameron secures vegetable vote for 2020. Midas touch once again.
    I think he already did that.
  • Sean_F said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    It is a bit North Korean.

    From the latest Ipsos Mori

    Net satisfaction with leaders amongst own party supporters

    Cameron +75

    Farage +85
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Roger said:

    JJ

    "Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?"

    Ed Miliband

    No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn?
    Why should the members be blamed about the actions of their MP's, Labour is united in supporting Corbyn, it's just the MP's that are the problem and it's their fault for going against the party's wishes so strongly.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I would be all for IQ tests prior to getting a vote on anything. It would have saved Labour from the embarrassment of Corbyn.
    Dont be so sure, some things are so frigging stupid, only overly intelligent people can think they are a good idea.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Roger said:

    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.

    Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?
    It's the Tories of course
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,994
    edited November 2015
    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    I had to leave the last thread so was not able to comment. Can I suggest that those who think it would be utterly intolerable to ban the burqa read the following - which sets out the argument far more eloquently than I could.

    http://jacobinism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/niqab-notes.html

    One small extract may suffice:-

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility. Given the multiplicity of challenges this presents to the defence of human rights, an absolutist opposition to state intervention leaves the State powerless to protect vulnerable women and children within minority communities. ...........

    At some point the liberal has to make a choice between disfiguring surgery and an untreated tumour. The laissez-faire approach to liberty in these circumstances is an act, not of principle, but of moral cowardice. Like the pacifist whose only concern is keeping his own hands free of blood, the liberal only concerned with his own reputation for tolerance ends up complicit in the crimes he ignores."

    As far as I am concerned the burqa is the uniform of a particularly intolerant, brutal and fundamentally violent version of Islam which is in effect saying "F*ck you" to the society in which it finds itself. It seeks liberties for itself which it will deny to others and which it will use violence to achieve. A free society should not tolerate such challenges to its basic norms. France has banned the burqa and is a free and civilised society. It is absurd to claim that banning it would turn us into some sort of intolerant authoritarian country. Honestly, liberals here make my blood boil sometimes. They seem to think that being liberal means saying yes to everything even when what is being said yes to is designed to destroy every trace of liberalism. Who was it who said that a liberal can't even take their own side in an argument?

    See what Yasmin Alibhai-Brown says about the effect of the burqa on young Asian girls and women in her latest book.

    And as for how such norms are arrived at (in response to Mr Jessop's question), how any society determines its norms, what the boundaries of behaviour - in public - are.

    I also think Casino Royale makes a very shrewd point about women finding it particularly intolerable - and all my female friends do - possibly because we are sensitive to how women's appearance and dress are used to circumscribe women's characters and lives. It was not that long ago that women who wore short skirts were said to be "asking for" rape. And now we see women covered up on the basis that if they were not so they would be responsible for inciting mens lusts', men presumably being incapable of controlling themselves or of being responsible for their own actions.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Roger said:

    JJ

    "Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?"

    Ed Miliband

    No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn?
    You pays your money and you makes your choice. Simples.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or don't care that much. The "not too keen on the EU but I suppose it may be necessary" vice is very common, and could well be activated or negated by the recommendation of the party leaders.
    Clearly the issue of Europe to some people like cheap orange squash at a childrens party. It gets them all over excited and irritable. To most of us it is not the biggest issue in the world, and for all its imperfections is a useful thing to have around. The key is to get the vote out. The monomaniacs have their best chance with a low turnout.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Sean_F said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    It is a bit North Korean.

    From the latest Ipsos Mori

    Net satisfaction with leaders amongst own party supporters

    Cameron +75

    Farage +85

    Are you sure that's not their average ages?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558

    Sean_F said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    The whole climate change debate is about worrying about very little. Climates change. We cope with it.
    There's always some higher ground I suppose.
    That's the thing. We're promised floods today, an ice age 40 years ago, if we don't mend our ways.

    Prosperity enables countries to cope with climate change. 120 years ago, extreme weather killed thousands of people in the USA. Now it kills dozens. The weather hasn't become less extreme, but a much richer society can protect its people far better
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Speedy said:


    Roger said:

    JJ

    "Who do you blame for the disaster of a fractured Labour Party?"

    Ed Miliband

    No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn?
    Why should the members be blamed about the actions of their MP's, Labour is united in supporting Corbyn, it's just the MP's that are the problem and it's their fault for going against the party's wishes so strongly.
    Wow. I guess talking out of your arse is the only alternative when your head's stuck in the sand.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    "Vote Blue Go Green":

    Government energy policies 'will increase CO2 emissions'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34767194

    Nice to be able to congratulate the Government on something.
    The whole climate change debate is about worrying about very little. Climates change. We cope with it.
    There's always some higher ground I suppose.
    That's the thing. We're promised floods today, an ice age 40 years ago, if we don't mend our ways.

    Prosperity enables countries to cope with climate change. 120 years ago, extreme weather killed thousands of people in the USA. Now it kills dozens. The weather hasn't become less extreme, but a much richer society can protect its people far better

    It's a control technique. If you don't follow these rules and pay those taxes then sky will literally fall in.

    So do what you are told.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2015
    My prediction is that at least one of les PB indecideds will pretend to be unsure until it looks certain that REMAIN will win, then decide to say they are voting REMAIN because of something Farage said in the campaign
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    notme said:

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I would be all for IQ tests prior to getting a vote on anything. It would have saved Labour from the embarrassment of Corbyn.
    Dont be so sure, some things are so frigging stupid, only overly intelligent people can think they are a good idea.
    If it helps sell the idea to you, I'll settle for a cap too.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,919

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or don't care that much. The "not too keen on the EU but I suppose it may be necessary" vice is very common, and could well be activated or negated by the recommendation of the party leaders.
    Clearly the issue of Europe to some people like cheap orange squash at a childrens party. It gets them all over excited and irritable. To most of us it is not the biggest issue in the world, and for all its imperfections is a useful thing to have around. The key is to get the vote out. The monomaniacs have their best chance with a low turnout.
    However, it contains little of wholesome value, and subsist on it for decades, and you may find yourself a weakened shell with your insides rotted away.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    The Labour leadership election was one where all of them should have lost. A great pity. Our system of government needs a functioning decent opposition. We all suffer if we don't have one, regardless of party affiliation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,987
    edited November 2015

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I would be all for IQ tests prior to getting a vote on anything. It would have saved Labour from the embarrassment of Corbyn.
    Given that many politicians and journalists seem to have come via Oxford Uni particularly, what is the merit of IQ tests for avoiding political stupidity and lamentable judgement?

    Just asking.

    Intelligent people can be incredibly boneheaded, naive and self-confident - lethal in combination. A lot of them voted for Jezbollah.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @cyclefree

    Much to agree with there. The burqa is an insult to both men (implicitly accusing them of being incapable of seeing or speaking to a woman without wanting to rape her) and to women (implicitly turning wearers into the property of men, and implying that non-wearers are sluts). They are not a neutral garb.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,558
    Speedy said:

    Roger said:

    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.

    The problem for Labour is that it doesn't participate on this debate, their MP's have settled their minds on the issue and the EU is not on Corbyn's top list to question them on it.
    The LD are an ex-party, so their opinion matters even less.

    So the focus of the debate is within the Conservative party, between it's more liberal leadership and it's more conservative base with UKIP as a guest star.
    UKIP + eurosceptic Conservatives = 30% of the population.

    Blairites + Orange Book Liberals + Cameroons = another 30%.

    That's the battleground.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyclefree said:

    Our system of government needs a functioning decent opposition. We all suffer if we don't have one, regardless of party affiliation.

    The very subject of Dan's latest opus...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11984636/Its-Corbyn-whos-mounting-a-coup-against-the-constitution-not-the-generals.html
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Roger said:

    It's a disaster that we have such a fractured Labour Party at this time and a Lib Dem Party that exists in name only. The only voices that are coming through are Tory ones


    For those of us who don't have a high regard for Tories of any faction watching their mainstream scrapping it out with their extreme right is about the least attractive sight I can remember in politics and more so because the result is so crucial.

    Labour died when Tony Blair assumed command of the ship, as is so often the case in the UK, the short term trumped the long term. The Social Democratic option was ignored and Labour moved from an old fashioned dead duck Socialist party to a Thatcherite neo-Liberal party.

    It was always doomed to fail but it was a choice Labour made. Even today, they completely lack a Social Democratic voice advocating a high tax, high welfare economy which works so well in Northern Europe. The choice is between Corbynite communism and Blairite consumerism and neither model has any real value or any real record of success.

    Just stick a pin in it, Labour is done. Let it die.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited November 2015
    Off topic random thought

    Has there ever been a TV show or film about a gay couple as the protagonists where the fact they are gay, and their struggle for acceptance etc, is not mentioned or important to the plot at all?

    Edit: this came to me after reading the sky+ blurb for London Spy, which doesn't mention that the couple are two men! How bizarre! I have the answer to my question
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    Off topic random thought

    Has there ever been a TV show or film about a gay couple as the protagonists where the fact they are gay, and their struggle for acceptance etc, is not mentioned or important to the plot at all?

    Gogglebox?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536
    Off-topic 2:

    Today's Google Doodle (sadly US only, I think) celebrates Heddy Lamarr, a Holywood actress and beauty who developed (and co-patented) a technology that helped us win the war, and we all use today in our mobile phones.

    http://www.google.com/doodles/hedy-lamarrs-101st-birthday

    The doodle itself is quite beautiful and worth a watch.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,421

    Off-topic:

    Quite surprised this case is still ongoing:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-34768403

    ISTR he was trying to exploit a loophole (you do not need planning if the structure has stood for x years without complaint) without realising that for this to be the case, the structure must not be deliberately hidden.

    Looks like he's done a pretty good job to me :)

    He'll get plenty of cash in hand work off that.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    Do you really think Yvette Cooper as leader would have been as disastrous for Labour as Corbyn is? I never thought she was much good, but surely she'd better than a thick communist..
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,994
    edited November 2015
    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know l know little of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is a sect of ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I'm a great believer in the concept of the "trusted advisor".

    But on the EU I shall make up my own mind.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    MattW said:

    Charles said:

    Shows that a big slice of Tory voters don't have a mind of their own.

    Or that they do, and they have decided to take the rational decision to take the advice of someone whose judgement they trust and who knows more than them about the specific details of the topic in question
    Yup, North Korean as Mr Sean_F said. Follow what the dear leader says.

    When the time comes people will dig out what Cameron said he wanted from these negotiations and what sort of relationship with the EU. They will compare them with what he has achieved and will, I am sure, be recommending.

    Personally I'd sooner trust Arthur Daley on the merits of a second hand motor car than Cameron on just about anything. But then I am not a die hard Conservative and I do, still, have a functioning memory.
    I would be all for IQ tests prior to getting a vote on anything. It would have saved Labour from the embarrassment of Corbyn.
    Given that many politicians and journalists seem to have come via Oxford Uni particularly, what is the merit of IQ tests for avoiding political stupidity and lamentable judgement?

    Just asking.

    Intelligent people can be incredibly boneheaded, naive and self-confident - lethal in combination. A lot of them voted for Jezbollah.
    I have elsewhere offered a cap too
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Off-topic 2:

    Today's Google Doodle (sadly US only, I think) celebrates Heddy Lamarr, a Holywood actress and beauty who developed (and co-patented) a technology that helped us win the war, and we all use today in our mobile phones.

    http://www.google.com/doodles/hedy-lamarrs-101st-birthday

    The doodle itself is quite beautiful and worth a watch.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoM-ZC7uNnc

    They could have done with some american flags on the background.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know little personally of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is the ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?

    I don't know any Hasidim in the way that you do so I can't comment in detail. But the article was not dealing with Orthodox Jews. And such women, as far as I know, do not cover their faces. Covering the hair is not an issue with anyone. It's a peculiarity which a lot of societies have had. Hasidic women do not interact much with non-Jewish society but you can see and speak to them. And I was once helped by one such man when I fell in the street and was injured. Very kindly, he stopped to help and drove me home. He was a good Samaritan. He would not shake my hand but I did not feel insulted by that (though it was curious that he would have me in the car but not touch my hand).

    I disagree that the author has a low opinion of women. Rather, it is those who seek to impose it as the norm who have a low opinion of women - and of men too. There is a lot of fear in such a view and, as often happens, those who are fearful often act with violence, explicit or implied.
  • Off-topic 2:

    Today's Google Doodle (sadly US only, I think) celebrates Heddy Lamarr, a Holywood actress and beauty who developed (and co-patented) a technology that helped us win the war, and we all use today in our mobile phones.

    http://www.google.com/doodles/hedy-lamarrs-101st-birthday

    The doodle itself is quite beautiful and worth a watch.

    It is also on the IFLS page for those PBers on Facebook
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    Do you really think Yvette Cooper as leader would have been as disastrous for Labour as Corbyn is? I never thought she was much good, but surely she'd better than a thick communist..
    Yes, all the other 3 were worse than Corbyn, that is why I preferred him in the end, because he is a low risk low reward candidate.
    With Corbyn at least Labour won't lose any more votes, something that was not a guarantee with the other 3.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    @cyclefree

    Much to agree with there. The burqa is an insult to both men (implicitly accusing them of being incapable of seeing or speaking to a woman without wanting to rape her) and to women (implicitly turning wearers into the property of men, and implying that non-wearers are sluts). They are not a neutral garb.

    It's worth bearing in mind the history of the burqa.

    Until the mid 19C it was very much a minorty choice. And then the British banned it in Egypt (even going around and tearing veils off) on the grounds it subjugated women.

    As a result it became extremely popular - but purely as a nationalist symbol of resistance, not anything to do with religion
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    isam said:

    Off topic random thought

    Has there ever been a TV show or film about a gay couple as the protagonists where the fact they are gay, and their struggle for acceptance etc, is not mentioned or important to the plot at all?

    Edit: this came to me after reading the sky+ blurb for London Spy, which doesn't mention that the couple are two men! How bizarre! I have the answer to my question

    Sense8
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Charles said:

    @cyclefree

    Much to agree with there. The burqa is an insult to both men (implicitly accusing them of being incapable of seeing or speaking to a woman without wanting to rape her) and to women (implicitly turning wearers into the property of men, and implying that non-wearers are sluts). They are not a neutral garb.

    It's worth bearing in mind the history of the burqa.

    Until the mid 19C it was very much a minorty choice. And then the British banned it in Egypt (even going around and tearing veils off) on the grounds it subjugated women.

    As a result it became extremely popular - but purely as a nationalist symbol of resistance, not anything to do with religion
    Fits in with my theory of it being equivalent to working class St George flag waving
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536
    Cyclefree said:

    I had to leave the last thread so was not able to comment. Can I suggest that those who think it would be utterly intolerable to ban the burqa read the following - which sets out the argument far more eloquently than I could.

    http://jacobinism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/niqab-notes.html

    (snip)

    Much to both agree and disagree with in that, Ms Free. For one disagreement (and it is a biggie): "And now we see women covered up on the basis that if they were not so they would be responsible for inciting mens lusts',"

    In some cases, yes. In others women are choosing to do it out of their own free will. I don't want to see such women excluded from society, which is what a ban 'in public' would entail. There is some evidence that the headscarf ban in Turkey has had some fairly evil consequences.

    As I've said many times, I don't like burqas or niqabs. But there are many things I don't like, and I'm not sure I should be calling for them to be generally banned. (*) After recent conversations with a friend, arranged marriages are something I'm massively against as the line between 'arranged' and 'forced' can be so thin as to be non-existent - coercion can play a major part into someone saying 'yes'. But banning arranged marriages? No, as people can take part in them of their own free will. With 'forced' marriages, of course, there is no free will.

    (The definitions, problems and scale of arranged, coerced and forced marriage should perhaps be talked about more)

    The core of the problem is not the burka: it is the pressure from family and friends that 'forces' someone to wear it who would otherwise not. In such cases, it is very similar to forced marriages - the problem is not the victims, but the people doing the forcing. Banning them 'in public' except in certain circumstances (e.g. courts) would just hurt women and do nothing about the core problem.

    And would also hurt the women who, out of their own free will, want to wear it.

    (*) Girls are a different matter to women; for a whole host of reasons (including health) the wearing of such garb should be illegal until 16 or 18, when the woman is mature enough to make such a decision).
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Speedy said:

    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    Do you really think Yvette Cooper as leader would have been as disastrous for Labour as Corbyn is? I never thought she was much good, but surely she'd better than a thick communist..
    Yes, all the other 3 were worse than Corbyn, that is why I preferred him in the end, because he is a low risk low reward candidate.
    With Corbyn at least Labour won't lose any more votes, something that was not a guarantee with the other 3.
    Do you want to bet on that? I'll give you up to £50 at evens that, if Corbyn is leader at the next election, he gets more votes than Miliband got
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited November 2015
    Speedy said:

    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    Do you really think Yvette Cooper as leader would have been as disastrous for Labour as Corbyn is? I never thought she was much good, but surely she'd better than a thick communist..
    Yes, all the other 3 were worse than Corbyn, that is why I preferred him in the end, because he is a low risk low reward candidate.
    With Corbyn at least Labour won't lose any more votes, something that was not a guarantee with the other 3.
    Yet the polls keep saying up to two million 2015 Labour voters are walking away, and the local by elections keep coming in with a declining Labour vote.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    @isam On warfarin for Atrial Fibrillation (AF):

    It all depends on your attitude to risk, which is a core skill of gamblers.

    The figures may not be applicable to an individual who may have other risk factors, but broadly work out as:

    1/100 chance per year of a stroke while in AF.
    1/200 chance per year of a stroke while in AF and on Warfarin.

    So the number needed to treat to prevent one stroke by the use of warfarin is 200. This can be sold to patients (or Daily Express headline writers) as:

    Warfarin halves the chance of a stroke.

    Or

    You would have to take warfarin for 200 years to prevent yourself having a stroke.

    Both statements are equally correct, and it largely depends on what attitude you take to risk and to health that determines the best course of action. Drug companies stress the first one but they would do, wouldn't they?

    There are a number of other drugs with considerable side effects that have similar numbers needed to treat, or in other words drugs that are having no benefit for the vast majority of patients.

    There is a worked example for statins here:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_needed_to_treat

    Some of the newer drugs have fewer side effects or monitoring required so alter the balance of benefit vs harm. Additionally it is reasonable to suck it and see. If there are no side-effects then even a high NNT may be acceptable to the patient. If it proves to have a lot of side-effects then stopping is not unreasonable.

    Note: None of this should be applied without understanding the individual risk via a discussion with a competent doctor!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,741
    edited November 2015
    Cyclefree said:

    I had to leave the last thread so was not able to comment. Can I suggest that those who think it would be utterly intolerable to ban the burqa read the following - which sets out the argument far more eloquently than I could.

    http://jacobinism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/niqab-notes.html

    One small extract may suffice:-


    As far as I am concerned the burqa is the uniform of a particularly intolerant, brutal and fundamentally violent version of Islam which is in effect saying "F*ck you" to the society in which it finds itself. It seeks liberties for itself which it will deny to others and which it will use violence to achieve. A free society should not tolerate such challenges to its basic norms. France has banned the burqa and is a free and civilised society. It is absurd to claim that banning it would turn us into some sort of intolerant authoritarian country. Honestly, liberals here make my blood boil sometimes. They seem to think that being liberal means saying yes to everything even when what is being said yes to is designed to destroy every trace of liberalism. Who was it who said that a liberal can't even take their own side in an argument?

    See what Yasmin Alibhai-Brown says about the effect of the burqa on young Asian girls and women in her latest book.

    And as for how such norms are arrived at (in response to Mr Jessop's question), how any society determines its norms, what the boundaries of behaviour - in public - are.

    I also think Casino Royale makes a very shrewd point about women finding it particularly intolerable - and all my female friends do - possibly because we are sensitive to how women's appearance and dress are used to circumscribe women's characters and lives. It was not that long ago that women who wore short skirts were said to be "asking for" rape. And now we see women covered up on the basis that if they were not so they would be responsible for inciting mens lusts', men presumably being incapable of controlling themselves or of being responsible for their own actions.

    Thanks Cyclefree. Very well said. My (rather centrist) wife feels the same way as you do.

    We have this believe in Britain that the absolute freedom to wear what you want where you want is fundamental to our society.

    But to me the mark of a conservative is the ability to take a pragmatic realistic view on any issue, rather than be constrained by dogma.

    And, on this, I feel this is something on which we should act for the reasons you describe.
  • isam said:

    My prediction is that at least one of les PB indecideds will pretend to be unsure until it looks certain that REMAIN will win, then decide to say they are voting REMAIN because of something Farage said in the campaign

    Probably quite a shrewd prediction!
  • Speedy said:

    Roger said:

    JJ

    ' No blame for the members who overwhelmingly elected Corbyn? "

    How can you blame the members for not choosing one of four candidates who were arguably worse than Ed? If I'd had a vote I too might have gone for the 'lucky dip' candidate

    Do you really think Yvette Cooper as leader would have been as disastrous for Labour as Corbyn is? I never thought she was much good, but surely she'd better than a thick communist..
    Yes, all the other 3 were worse than Corbyn, that is why I preferred him in the end, because he is a low risk low reward candidate.
    With Corbyn at least Labour won't lose any more votes, something that was not a guarantee with the other 3.
    You really believe that labour wont lose more votes with Corbyn as leader. You have to be admired for your blind loyalty
  • Roger said:

    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know l know little of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is a sect of ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?

    How do you know the women have chosen it and embrace it?

    I can see three reasons for wearing a hijab/niqab: (1) you've been forced to do so by your husband/father, backed by either implicit or explicit threats, (2) broader social-cultural pressure means you feel you have to wear one or your life will become difficult (3) you really do want to wear one, in which case you've been brainwashed to have some pretty unhealthy views about men and women through the influence of extreme religious dogma.

    None are good.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,536

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know l know little of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is a sect of ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?

    How do you know the women have chosen it and embrace it?

    I can see three reasons for wearing a hijab/niqab: (1) you've been forced to do so by your husband/father, backed by either implicit or explicit threats, (2) broader social-cultural pressure means you feel you have to wear one or your life will become difficult (3) you really do want to wear one, in which case you've been brainwashed to have some pretty unhealthy views about men and women through the influence of extreme religious dogma.

    None are good.
    Your problem is in assuming, in the third case, that it is brainwashing. Essentially you are saying there can be no free will when it comes to the wearing of these items.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Off topic, I watched the first three Bourne movies today. They were incredibly...mediocre. These movies revolutionized the modern action film?
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know l know little of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is a sect of ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?

    How do you know the women have chosen it and embrace it?

    I can see three reasons for wearing a hijab/niqab: (1) you've been forced to do so by your husband/father, backed by either implicit or explicit threats, (2) broader social-cultural pressure means you feel you have to wear one or your life will become difficult (3) you really do want to wear one, in which case you've been brainwashed to have some pretty unhealthy views about men and women through the influence of extreme religious dogma.

    None are good.
    Your problem is in assuming, in the third case, that it is brainwashing. Essentially you are saying there can be no free will when it comes to the wearing of these items.
    I don't want to ban the burka/niqab/hijab or anything else, but I am rather insulted by it. Basically it seems to be saying that I'm too filthy minded to be able to look at a Muslim woman without wanting to do something improper.
  • Roger said:

    Cyclefree.

    "But veiling is also part of a web of apolitical, cultural and quasi-religious traditions such as honour murder and Female Genital Mutilation designed to entrap women in a position of abject servility."

    What a low opinion the writer has for women which I suspect tells you more about his background than the women he writes about. I know l know little of the Muslim rituals at first hand but a lot about the Hasidim which is a sect of ultra orthodox Jews.

    The women also appear to have a raw deal but to characterize them as being either subservient or in any sense second class citizens couldn't be further from the truth. It's a way of life that they have chosen and which they embrace. Indeed my impression is of many very feisty women and rather wimpish men. How could it be otherwise when they are bringing up 10 or 12 children?

    How do you know the women have chosen it and embrace it?

    I can see three reasons for wearing a hijab/niqab: (1) you've been forced to do so by your husband/father, backed by either implicit or explicit threats, (2) broader social-cultural pressure means you feel you have to wear one or your life will become difficult (3) you really do want to wear one, in which case you've been brainwashed to have some pretty unhealthy views about men and women through the influence of extreme religious dogma.

    None are good.
    Your problem is in assuming, in the third case, that it is brainwashing. Essentially you are saying there can be no free will when it comes to the wearing of these items.
    When it comes to fully obscuring the whole body, face and eyes whenever you leave the house as a cultural norm then, yes, I don't think that is something we should accept in this country. Because we know it's not free will: it's based on a brutal form of Islam as Cyclefree points out below.

    It's a sign of the subjugation of women, not their free will. The beliefs that lead to it should be confronted.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,995
    edited November 2015
    kle4 said:

    Off topic, I watched the first three Bourne movies today. They were incredibly...mediocre. These movies revolutionized the modern action film?

    I've wanted to do a PB thread about Osborne headlined "The Osborne Supremacy" for ages
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