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  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited October 2015
    Speedy said:

    The GOP candidates in the wake of last night's CNBC debate are getting organized to ditch the rest of the debates and do their own ones:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/after-cnbc-debacle-carson-camp-vows-revolt-over-debates/article/2575209

    The next debate is in 12 days of Fox Business, so I don't think they will ditch that, the one after though doesn't come until December 15th on CNN, a network which they hate, so they might ditch that one in favour of something else.

    The moderators on the FBN debate will apparently be the same team as the Fox News debate, when they had some superbly researched and difficult questions for the candidates, unlike the biased personal and gotcha stuff of last night. They start their prep over the weekend.

    CNN is a liberal network, but unlike the NBC networks, they at least attempt to be a serious news network. In their last Republican debate they at least got a conservative moderator on the team, and although the questioning format was a bit odd, there were no real claims of complete liberal bias such as we saw last night.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,040
    edited October 2015

    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Richard_Nabavi,

    The CBI provide these numbers for Norway's and the UK's contributions for the EU:

    Norway: €100 per capita
    UK: €180 per capita

    http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/case_study06_norway.html

    It seems very clear that Cameron's claim was simply untrue.

    That UK figure of €180 per capita is gross. The net figure is nearer €80 per capita. (£60)

    No, it is not gross. That's a net figure. In sterling we pay 11bn net and 19bn gross. If you divide those numbers by our population, you get about 174 pounds net and 300 gross.
    Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

    Click on subnote 28 to get the EU budget.
    Go to sheet year 2014.

    Line 84 gives the EU expenditure on the UK i.e. what we get back. It is €7.0b.
    Line 92 gives the UK National Contribution i.e. gross. That is €11.3b.

    That leaves €4.3b as our net contribution.
    At €1.37 to £, that is roughly £3.2b.
    UK population of 64m means our net contribtuion is £50/head.

    These are EU original sources. I don't know what sources you are using but I am about to leave for The Shooting Star so I will probably never find out (unless you are planning to be there).
    The net figures – which take into account the UK’s rebate – show the UK’s contribution to the EU was £2.7bn in 2008, rising to £3.8bn in 2009, £7.2bn in 2010, £7.5bn in 2011, £8.5bn in 2012 and £11.3bn in 2013.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/31/britain-eu-contribution-rise-quadruple-cameron
    The Guardian or the EU: who to believe? That really is a tough one!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    Good evening, everyone.

    Dr. Prasannan, last ever? Has Dirty Dicks been demolished?

    Mr. Royale, it takes a special sort of intellectually vacant clown to see a man and his colleagues almost get stoned to death by a mob because of a number plate, and then decide jail time may be an appropriate response. For the crime of having stones flung at him.

    Glad the Aussies stuffed the Argies.

    The levels of indoctrination down in Argentina are off the scale, and state sponsored.

    They make the Yestapo look like disciples of the Dali Llama.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    antifrank said:

    MP_SE said:

    < Sarcasm > Thanks Dave < / Sarcasm>. It is becoming increasingly hard to see a united Tory party post EU referendum:

    "Cameron’s revenge on purdah rebels – he sacks them from the Council of Europe"

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2015/10/camerons-revenge-on-purdah-rebels-he-sacks-them-from-the-council-of-europe.html

    As martyrdoms go, it falls some way short of being stoned or thrown to the lions.
    But it's pretty unpleasant to discipline people because they wouldn't go along with your plan for the taxpayer to fund your side of an election. Cameron has really dropped in my opinion over this.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. Royale, I quite agree. It's alarming, and the only good thing is that neither cast nor crew of Top Gear suffered serious injury, or worse.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    JEO said:

    antifrank said:

    MP_SE said:

    < Sarcasm > Thanks Dave < / Sarcasm>. It is becoming increasingly hard to see a united Tory party post EU referendum:

    "Cameron’s revenge on purdah rebels – he sacks them from the Council of Europe"

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2015/10/camerons-revenge-on-purdah-rebels-he-sacks-them-from-the-council-of-europe.html

    As martyrdoms go, it falls some way short of being stoned or thrown to the lions.
    But it's pretty unpleasant to discipline people because they wouldn't go along with your plan for the taxpayer to fund your side of an election. Cameron has really dropped in my opinion over this.
    Prime Minister punishes rebels against his position. It's absolutely standard.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    The GOP candidates in the wake of last night's CNBC debate are getting organized to ditch the rest of the debates and do their own ones:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/after-cnbc-debacle-carson-camp-vows-revolt-over-debates/article/2575209

    The next debate is in 12 days of Fox Business, so I don't think they will ditch that, the one after though doesn't come until December 15th on CNN, a network which they hate, so they might ditch that one in favour of something else.

    The moderators on the FBN debate will apparently be the same team as the Fox News debate, when they had some superbly researched and difficult questions for the candidates, unlike the biased personal and gotcha stuff of last night. They start their prep over the weekend.
    No need to search for Jeb Bush though, as I predicted from years ago his candidacy is finally dead.
    The cherry on top is this, "hey kiddies I'm cool":
    https://vine.co/v/erQmKFXZ6OD

    Rubio is next on my list of paper candidates that will implode after Bush, Fiorina, Kasich and Christie imploded before him.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Richard_Nabavi,

    The CBI provide these numbers for Norway's and the UK's contributions for the EU:

    Norway: €100 per capita
    UK: €180 per capita

    http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/case_study06_norway.html

    It seems very clear that Cameron's claim was simply untrue.

    That UK figure of €180 per capita is gross. The net figure is nearer €80 per capita. (£60)

    No, it is not gross. That's a net figure. In sterling we pay 11bn net and 19bn gross. If you divide those numbers by our population, you get about 174 pounds net and 300 gross.
    Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

    Click on subnote 28 to get the EU budget.
    Go to sheet year 2014.

    Line 84 gives the EU expenditure on the UK i.e. what we get back. It is €7.0b.
    Line 92 gives the UK National Contribution i.e. gross. That is €11.3b.

    That leaves €4.3b as our net contribution.
    At €1.37 to £, that is roughly £3.2b.
    UK population of 64m means our net contribtuion is £50/head.

    These are EU original sources. I don't know what sources you are using but I am about to leave for The Shooting Star so I will probably never find out (unless you are planning to be there).
    I don't know what that spreadsheet is without seeing the page it is from, and I don't have Excel on this computer anyway. But you can see full coverage of the subject here:

    https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887
  • @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The engine on a 767 of Dynamic Airlines caught fire while on a taxiway at Ft. Lauderdale. The plane was evacuated and there are about 10 injuries.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. Royale, I would guess some Conservatives consider the softness (on migration) of the blues preferable to the harder line but more cultish/chaotic nature of the purples.

    Farage's hokey-cokey resignation was the act of a fool.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    To the tune of "My Guy"...

    "Nothing he can do can displease EU remain guys..."
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Mr. Royale, I quite agree. It's alarming, and the only good thing is that neither cast nor crew of Top Gear suffered serious injury, or worse.

    Clarkson was fired in March, but BBC America is still running about 15 episodes per week, with new compilations of 'Best of Jeremy / Best of James / Best of Richard' plus repeats.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    Mr. Royale, I quite agree. It's alarming, and the only good thing is that neither cast nor crew of Top Gear suffered serious injury, or worse.

    Clarkson was fired in March, but BBC America is still running about 15 episodes per week, with new compilations of 'Best of Jeremy / Best of James / Best of Richard' plus repeats.
    Well it's better than "Best of Chris Evans".
  • DavidL said:

    antifrank said:

    The other pb takes a look at Call Me Dave:

    http://popbitch.com/home/2015/10/29/smear-tactics/

    That's rather good but I can't help thinking I am going to always be dependent on others having even opened that book, let alone subject it to textual analysis.
    The dirt i really want dished is why Cameron ratted on Ashcroft in the first place, if indeed he really did so.

    We know when asked Cameron said, "how long have you got?"

    What did Ashcroft do?
    His late disclosure on his tax status and who was to blame over the Tories not winning a majority in 2010

    Ashcroft blames Dave for agreeing to the debates, Dave blames Ashcroft for faulty polling and strategy/tactics.

    For example Ashcroft said Hamsptead and Kilburn wasn't winnable and threw all resources at Westminster North.

    DavidL said:

    antifrank said:

    The other pb takes a look at Call Me Dave:

    http://popbitch.com/home/2015/10/29/smear-tactics/

    That's rather good but I can't help thinking I am going to always be dependent on others having even opened that book, let alone subject it to textual analysis.
    The dirt i really want dished is why Cameron ratted on Ashcroft in the first place, if indeed he really did so.

    We know when asked Cameron said, "how long have you got?"

    What did Ashcroft do?
    His late disclosure on his tax status and who was to blame over the Tories not winning a majority in 2010

    Ashcroft blames Dave for agreeing to the debates, Dave blames Ashcroft for faulty polling and strategy/tactics.

    For example Ashcroft said Hamsptead and Kilburn wasn't winnable and threw all resources at Westminster North.
    Interesting. Thanks.

    We all make mistakes. It feels a bit like there's almost something very personal going on here as well.
    I'll drop you a message about this in the next few days.

    But now One Direction awaits me.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited October 2015
    All to play for if this YouGov poll is anything to go by:

    https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/659774991441993728
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    DavidL said:

    antifrank said:

    The other pb takes a look at Call Me Dave:

    http://popbitch.com/home/2015/10/29/smear-tactics/

    That's rather good but I can't help thinking I am going to always be dependent on others having even opened that book, let alone subject it to textual analysis.
    The dirt i really want dished is why Cameron ratted on Ashcroft in the first place, if indeed he really did so.

    We know when asked Cameron said, "how long have you got?"

    What did Ashcroft do?
    His late disclosure on his tax status and who was to blame over the Tories not winning a majority in 2010

    Ashcroft blames Dave for agreeing to the debates, Dave blames Ashcroft for faulty polling and strategy/tactics.

    For example Ashcroft said Hamsptead and Kilburn wasn't winnable and threw all resources at Westminster North.

    DavidL said:

    antifrank said:

    The other pb takes a look at Call Me Dave:

    http://popbitch.com/home/2015/10/29/smear-tactics/

    That's rather good but I can't help thinking I am going to always be dependent on others having even opened that book, let alone subject it to textual analysis.
    The dirt i really want dished is why Cameron ratted on Ashcroft in the first place, if indeed he really did so.

    We know when asked Cameron said, "how long have you got?"

    What did Ashcroft do?
    His late disclosure on his tax status and who was to blame over the Tories not winning a majority in 2010

    Ashcroft blames Dave for agreeing to the debates, Dave blames Ashcroft for faulty polling and strategy/tactics.

    For example Ashcroft said Hamsptead and Kilburn wasn't winnable and threw all resources at Westminster North.
    Interesting. Thanks.

    We all make mistakes. It feels a bit like there's almost something very personal going on here as well.
    I'll drop you a message about this in the next few days.

    But now One Direction awaits me.
    Thanks TSE. Enjoy!
  • Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Richard_Nabavi,

    The CBI provide these numbers for Norway's and the UK's contributions for the EU:

    Norway: €100 per capita
    UK: €180 per capita

    http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/case_study06_norway.html

    It seems very clear that Cameron's claim was simply untrue.

    That UK figure of €180 per capita is gross. The net figure is nearer €80 per capita. (£60)

    Wrong Barnsian

    As I pointed out on the previous thread your figures for the UK contributions were completely wrong. The actual figures for 2014 are £19.2 billion gross and £9.8 billion net.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,597
    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    antifrank said:

    MP_SE said:

    < Sarcasm > Thanks Dave < / Sarcasm>. It is becoming increasingly hard to see a united Tory party post EU referendum:

    "Cameron’s revenge on purdah rebels – he sacks them from the Council of Europe"

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2015/10/camerons-revenge-on-purdah-rebels-he-sacks-them-from-the-council-of-europe.html

    As martyrdoms go, it falls some way short of being stoned or thrown to the lions.
    But it's pretty unpleasant to discipline people because they wouldn't go along with your plan for the taxpayer to fund your side of an election. Cameron has really dropped in my opinion over this.
    Prime Minister punishes rebels against his position. It's absolutely standard.
    Precisely. I've been converted to the Leave position myself, but I am yet to be convinced that Cameron has committed any egregious sins by punishing those in his party who disagree with him. No doubt any number of PMs would have been well advised not to take certain positions, or not punish too severely those who do not go along with those positions, but it is also not the sort of thing that really concerns me. It's just a thing that PMs do, I may not like it, but I'm not about to get worked up about it either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,003

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    Just being in the same room as James Bond is implied consent.

    Covered in gold? Oil? They were asking for it....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    The funny thing is: it isn't the murdering that bothers her, it's the fact he's doing it for the British establishment, and isn't correctly following gender diversity protocol.

    Worse, it's popular. Patriotic, un-PC and popular.

    Is there a worse crime these days?
  • JEO said:

    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Richard_Nabavi,

    The CBI provide these numbers for Norway's and the UK's contributions for the EU:

    Norway: €100 per capita
    UK: €180 per capita

    http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/case_study06_norway.html

    It seems very clear that Cameron's claim was simply untrue.

    That UK figure of €180 per capita is gross. The net figure is nearer €80 per capita. (£60)

    No, it is not gross. That's a net figure. In sterling we pay 11bn net and 19bn gross. If you divide those numbers by our population, you get about 174 pounds net and 300 gross.
    Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

    Click on subnote 28 to get the EU budget.
    Go to sheet year 2014.

    Line 84 gives the EU expenditure on the UK i.e. what we get back. It is €7.0b.
    Line 92 gives the UK National Contribution i.e. gross. That is €11.3b.

    That leaves €4.3b as our net contribution.
    At €1.37 to £, that is roughly £3.2b.
    UK population of 64m means our net contribtuion is £50/head.

    These are EU original sources. I don't know what sources you are using but I am about to leave for The Shooting Star so I will probably never find out (unless you are planning to be there).
    I don't know what that spreadsheet is without seeing the page it is from, and I don't have Excel on this computer anyway. But you can see full coverage of the subject here:

    https://fullfact.org/economy/cost_eu_membership_gross_net_contribution-30887
    Barnsian is completely wrong. He is using only one part of the UK EU contribution and ignoring the rest. Just go and look at the Treasury paper I linked to on the last thread for the correct figures. I can't link to them directly right at this moment as I am on a bus. I can resend later if he persists in quoting the wrong figures.
  • JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
  • Barnesian said:

    JEO said:

    Richard_Nabavi,

    The CBI provide these numbers for Norway's and the UK's contributions for the EU:

    Norway: €100 per capita
    UK: €180 per capita

    http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/case_study06_norway.html

    It seems very clear that Cameron's claim was simply untrue.

    That UK figure of €180 per capita is gross. The net figure is nearer €80 per capita. (£60)

    The BBC gave some figures for a few years ago which squinting at the graph looked to be close to €60 per head. So you might be right. Will people appologise to Cameron? Norway may have (or had) a nice little earner from north sea oil, but it has a tiny population.
    But again there are other ways of looking at it and our net contribution as a percent of income puts us bottom, the lowest contributor to the EU. Not sure how that compares with Norway, they are allegedly wealthy, high income. So on that meausre they might be below us.
    Why on earth do people go to secondary sources like the BBC or Wikipedia when all the figures are available from the Treasury?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
  • Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    SE is running "Project Le Fear" :D

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. Eagles, perhaps not, but it's a marginal rather than cut-through issue.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
  • antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    I think the best thing the Leave campaign could do is to stick Farage in a cupboard for 18 months
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    The fact is that if there is any advantage to the economy in us being in the EU, it is to the richer parts of society...employers not employees

    It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer

    If the GDP impact was as negligible as it is but the poor were much better off and the rich a bit poorer, then it may be more acceptable to stay, but as it is the opposite its hard to warm to that argument
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. Awakes, ahem, a shed*. This has already been discussed :p
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    I think the best thing the Leave campaign could do is to stick Farage in a cupboard for 18 months
    ...apart from the fact that he is the most popular leader in the UK and his highest ever ratings coincide with the tightest LEAVE/REMAIN polling in years
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    Just being in the same room as James Bond is implied consent.
    Covered in gold? Oil? They were asking for it....
    There was me thinking James Bond was just an overblown bit of fantasy .... all be it one which earns the nation a decent chunk of money. The NS need a sense of proportion.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The Fox Business Network - Wall Street Journal debates on Tuesday Nov 10 at 6pm ET and 9pm ET.

    The moderators are Trish Regan, Sandra Smith, Maria Bartiromo, and Neil Cavuto.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Game of Thrones actively manufactures it even today. It's popular.

    The real crime of Bond is that he represents a Britishness that many on the Left despise and wish would go away.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2015
    .

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Already lost it with fitch and Moodys.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    The fact is that if there is any advantage to the economy in us being in the EU, it is to the richer parts of society...employers not employees

    It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer

    If the GDP impact was as negligible as it is but the poor were much better off and the rich a bit poorer, then it may be more acceptable to stay, but as it is the opposite its hard to warm to that argument
    Farage is right if he's saying politics isn't all about the money.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Meh. As a leftie who's on the fence about the EU, "warnings" from the CBI/credit-agency lobby are if anything more likely to push me towards Leave. I want to hear what the EU does (or could do) for me, and what it does for the things I care about - I don't want this generic doom-mongering from people who are only concerned that their own bank balances will be hit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. 565, not a lefty, but I was wondering if things like that might smack of a threat and push people towards Out rather than In.

    TTIP's another example. Uncertain leftwingers will hear the US saying they won't sign a deal with the UK alone [a lie, in all likelihood] and move to Out.

    I still think In will win relatively comfortably.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    edited October 2015

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    The fact is that if there is any advantage to the economy in us being in the EU, it is to the richer parts of society...employers not employees

    It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer

    If the GDP impact was as negligible as it is but the poor were much better off and the rich a bit poorer, then it may be more acceptable to stay, but as it is the opposite its hard to warm to that argument
    Farage is right if he's saying politics isn't all about the money.
    If the population increases the way the ONS was projecting, then house prices are a one way bet. But we'll still have the same houses... will we be any richer in reality ? No - future owners will just be paying more for exactly the same as there is now.
    All the money spent on tax credits could have been pumped into house building. We'd have exactly the same deficit, but at least something to show for it.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited October 2015

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    I am sure S&P employ a few decent people but their track record leaves a lot to be desired, whether it be the AAA rating Enron enjoyed right up until their collapse, being fined for inflating the ratings on subrime mortgage bonds, etc.
  • isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    I think the best thing the Leave campaign could do is to stick Farage in a cupboard for 18 months
    ...apart from the fact that he is the most popular leader in the UK and his highest ever ratings coincide with the tightest LEAVE/REMAIN polling in years
    And yet he has newer been elected as an MP...seven times
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    The fact is that if there is any advantage to the economy in us being in the EU, it is to the richer parts of society...employers not employees

    It makes the rich richer and the poor poorer

    If the GDP impact was as negligible as it is but the poor were much better off and the rich a bit poorer, then it may be more acceptable to stay, but as it is the opposite its hard to warm to that argument
    Farage is right if he's saying politics isn't all about the money.
    That's exactly what he was saying
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Also the ONS figures clearly show there is no need to incentivize sprog popping.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    I think the best thing the Leave campaign could do is to stick Farage in a cupboard for 18 months
    ...apart from the fact that he is the most popular leader in the UK and his highest ever ratings coincide with the tightest LEAVE/REMAIN polling in years
    Most popular leader?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    I think the best thing the Leave campaign could do is to stick Farage in a cupboard for 18 months
    ...apart from the fact that he is the most popular leader in the UK and his highest ever ratings coincide with the tightest LEAVE/REMAIN polling in years
    And yet he has newer been elected as an MP...seven times
    Only once was he a realistic chance and yes fair enough, he didn't win
  • Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Game of Thrones actively manufactures it even today. It's popular.

    The real crime of Bond is that he represents a Britishness that many on the Left despise and wish would go away.
    Captain Ramius was the best James Bond :)
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Game of Thrones actively manufactures it even today. It's popular.

    The real crime of Bond is that he represents a Britishness that many on the Left despise and wish would go away.
    You and others seem to have rather missed the tone of Penny's article. She watches the films - a guilty pleasure - while understanding that they're really a load of piffle. And frankly I'd be rather worried about anyone who didn't watch them in that way.
  • Once again since Barnsian and Flightpath seem to persist in quoting incorrect figures for the UK contribution to the EU.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/388882/EU_finances_2014_final.pdf

    Page 14 shows that the UK Gross contribution in 2014 was £19.2 billion. The net Contribution was £9.8 billion. Based on an estimated population of 64.1 million (the last available figures from the ONS for 2013) that means per capita is a few pennies short of £300 gross or £153 net.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,172
    edited October 2015
    Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Theme tune by Matt Monro

    "TWO Russia with Love" is the sequel :lol:
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Yaah, yeah, yeah. We heard all these scare stories when the issue of joining the Euro was debated. Do you remember? Unless we joined The City of London would be reduced to a financial backwater, Honda would pack up and leave, investment would cease, and all the rest of it. It never happened, though Ford have moved some of its manufacturing out of the UK - to Turkey.
  • It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Theme tune by Matt Monro

    "TWO Russia with Love" is the sequel :lol:
    A theme tune that appears at the END of the movie, except for a few bars played on a radio at the start.
  • It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    I doubt it. If you work on the UK net contribution as how much we would save that leaves the difference between net and gross as the amount available for compensating those who have been in receipt of EU CAP funds (bear in mind the rebate is in parts because we have a smaller arming sector than many other parts of the EU).

    And farmers detest the fact that EU rules change every few years so that they have to change completely what they are doing regarding environmental actions just to make sure they keep getting the funds.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
  • isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    MP_SE said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
    Promise you'll let me be there when you try explaining that to a farmer.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    The EU loves buying support. The Guardian have been publishing articles from an "independent" think tank claiming that in the event of a Brexit, UK farming will be destroyed. Turned out they were on the EU payroll and are anything but independent:

    http://order-order.com/2015/10/29/shameless-eu-sockpuppets-bunged-another-e200000-by-brussels/

    When there is no demos support has to be bought.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    They would be replaced by UK subsidies as would the other EU spending in the UK. Leaving not much difference.
    As part of any EU 'trade deal' eg access to single market, we would make other contributions to EU budget.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Re the EU farming subsidy...It will be interesting watching how the French cope with the reduced amount..
  • It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    They would be replaced by UK subsidies as would the other EU spending in the UK. Leaving not much difference.
    As part of any EU 'trade deal' eg access to single market, we would make other contributions to EU budget.
    Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year - which is the difference now between what we put in and what we get back.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    MP_SE said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
    Promise you'll let me be there when you try explaining that to a farmer.
    I know a few farmers who feel the CAP is more trouble than it's worth in terms of the conditions it places on them.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Same here, they hate it.
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    MP_SE said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
    Promise you'll let me be there when you try explaining that to a farmer.
    I know a few farmers who feel the CAP is more trouble than it's worth in terms of the conditions it places on them.
  • JEO said:

    isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    MP_SE said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
    Promise you'll let me be there when you try explaining that to a farmer.
    I know a few farmers who feel the CAP is more trouble than it's worth in terms of the conditions it places on them.
    Shhh don't say that to Ian Duncan-Smith's family, they've received over a million in farm subsidies in the past decade
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Danny565 said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Meh. As a leftie who's on the fence about the EU, "warnings" from the CBI/credit-agency lobby are if anything more likely to push me towards Leave. I want to hear what the EU does (or could do) for me, and what it does for the things I care about - I don't want this generic doom-mongering from people who are only concerned that their own bank balances will be hit.
    Yes, I feel the same. The Remain campaign has done an awful job so far. They started by giving themselves silly initials. They then had a conspiracy theorist no-one has heard of to appeal to the youth. They then started to insult half the electorate as 'quitters'. Now they're resorting to scare stories and easily disproven falsehoods.

    I want a clear positive picture from Remain. I want to hear a vision of an EU future that maximises the benefits and neutralises the dangers, and how we're going to get there. Vague ideals about 'openness' and 'influence' simply won't cut it. Where's the beef?
  • So far we've had they'll be no subsidies, £ 5 billion and 9 billion..Either way, it's something that will need to be addressed at some point before the referendum as it will clearly be a vote decider for many
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    Tim_B said:

    isam said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    On my Humanities course at Brighton Uni, the students were made to watch "To Russia With Love" and then given a lecture on how all Bond films were subversive Cold war propaganda, Bond was a misogynist, racist and Sean Connery bashed his missus up
    Many years ago a religious publication (War Cry?) condemned the Bond novels as nothing but "sex, sadism, and snobbery." It was manna from heaven. The review helped to sell many Bond books in paperback, and was printed prominently on the covers.

    It's FROM Russia with Love, by the way. ;)
    Game of Thrones actively manufactures it even today. It's popular.

    The real crime of Bond is that he represents a Britishness that many on the Left despise and wish would go away.
    You and others seem to have rather missed the tone of Penny's article. She watches the films - a guilty pleasure - while understanding that they're really a load of piffle. And frankly I'd be rather worried about anyone who didn't watch them in that way.
    I haven't missed it at all. I don't disagree that Bond is a flawed man and conflicted. I disagree with her conclusions - and yours - and certainly don't think all the films are a pile of piffle.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    JEO said:

    isam said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    You love a subsidy inspired vote don't you?!
    MP_SE said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    New Zealand ended farming subsidies in the 1980s which resulted in a huge increase in productivity, diversification into new markets, increase in innovation, etc. A gradual reduction of farming subsidies in the UK would reinvigorate a stagnating sector.
    Promise you'll let me be there when you try explaining that to a farmer.
    I know a few farmers who feel the CAP is more trouble than it's worth in terms of the conditions it places on them.
    Shhh don't say that to Ian Duncan-Smith's family, they've received over a million in farm subsidies in the past decade
    LOL. Isn't IDS an outer?
  • So far we've had they'll be no subsidies, £ 5 billion and 9 billion..Either way, it's something that will need to be addressed at some point before the referendum as it will clearly be a vote decider for many

    Absolute tosh. No one has said there will be £9 billion. And the only comment about there being none was made by someone pointing out how that had worked in another country. No one has suggested that woold be the case in the UK.

    If you are going to make stuff up then at least try to be a bit more intelligent about it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    It's quite obvious that this is a coordinated series of annoucements today by the Government and BSE. Someone in No.10 has had a word with someone in DC: 'it would be awfully helpful if you could..'

    What it tells us is that the Government and BSE is rattled. Project Fear indeed.
  • So far we've had they'll be no subsidies, £ 5 billion and 9 billion..Either way, it's something that will need to be addressed at some point before the referendum as it will clearly be a vote decider for many

    Absolute tosh. No one has said there will be £9 billion. And the only comment about there being none was made by someone pointing out how that had worked in another country. No one has suggested that woold be the case in the UK.

    If you are going to make stuff up then at least try to be a bit more intelligent about it.
    You said it !!! "Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year"
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    JEO said:

    Danny565 said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Meh. As a leftie who's on the fence about the EU, "warnings" from the CBI/credit-agency lobby are if anything more likely to push me towards Leave. I want to hear what the EU does (or could do) for me, and what it does for the things I care about - I don't want this generic doom-mongering from people who are only concerned that their own bank balances will be hit.
    Yes, I feel the same. The Remain campaign has done an awful job so far. They started by giving themselves silly initials. They then had a conspiracy theorist no-one has heard of to appeal to the youth. They then started to insult half the electorate as 'quitters'. Now they're resorting to scare stories and easily disproven falsehoods.

    I want a clear positive picture from Remain. I want to hear a vision of an EU future that maximises the benefits and neutralises the dangers, and how we're going to get there. Vague ideals about 'openness' and 'influence' simply won't cut it. Where's the beef?
    There isn't any. They are relying on the inconvenience of leaving.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    antifrank said:

    MP_SE said:

    < Sarcasm > Thanks Dave < / Sarcasm>. It is becoming increasingly hard to see a united Tory party post EU referendum:

    "Cameron’s revenge on purdah rebels – he sacks them from the Council of Europe"

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2015/10/camerons-revenge-on-purdah-rebels-he-sacks-them-from-the-council-of-europe.html

    As martyrdoms go, it falls some way short of being stoned or thrown to the lions.
    But it's pretty unpleasant to discipline people because they wouldn't go along with your plan for the taxpayer to fund your side of an election. Cameron has really dropped in my opinion over this.
    Prime Minister punishes rebels against his position. It's absolutely standard.
    When your position is thoroughly undemocratic and against the fundamentals your party should believe in, you should admit your mistake and let it go. Cameron is proving here that he never realised why he was wrong in the first place. The more I think about it the more annoyed at him I get. He attempted to trample over long-established democratic precedents and now he's basically insisting he was right to do so. Profoundly unconservative.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,686

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Would this be the same S&P that upgraded all the Icelandic banks to AAA just before they all went bust?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,686

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    They would be replaced by UK subsidies as would the other EU spending in the UK. Leaving not much difference.
    As part of any EU 'trade deal' eg access to single market, we would make other contributions to EU budget.
    Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year - which is the difference now between what we put in and what we get back.
    There's another point. We'd have £10bn quid that the EU currently spends in the UK, that we'd get to choose how to spend instead!
  • Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    It's quite obvious that this is a coordinated series of annoucements today by the Government and BSE. Someone in No.10 has had a word with someone in DC: 'it would be awfully helpful if you could..'

    What it tells us is that the Government and BSE is rattled. Project Fear indeed.
    Billy Bragg on QT tonight.

    Early night it is.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Christ,the EU fanatics seem scared of they own shadows,just laughable.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,562
    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    surbiton said:

    JEO said:

    I'm not sure this is sustainable:

    The population of Britain is to increase by almost 10 million in the next 25 years, with net migration accounting for more than half that number.

    Projections released by the Office for National Statistics showed the UK population is expected to reach 74.3 million by 2039, up from an estimated 64.6 million in imd-2014.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-population-to-rise-by-10-million-in-next-25-years-with-net-migration-accounting-for-50-a6713106.html

    Great ! That is why our GDP is likely to surpass Germany's as their population is set to decline rapidly.
    Why don't we let in another 300 million and we could surpass the US?
    If the Tories don't fix this a substantial chunk of their voters will elect someone who says they will.

    That will probably take place under FPTP and knock the Tories out of power, and Labour in, but only once the deficit is under control.

    There will then be one hell of a reckoning in opposition. Why smart Tories can't see this baffles me.

    Meanwhile public dissatisfaction and frustration will grow, but unless we have a gamechanger like leaving the EU I think inward net migration will be in the 200-400k per year annual band for until at least 2030.
    Well, if we vote to leave and the economy tanks then no one will want to come here anyway
    Nigel Farage would prefer that over more migrants:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10555158/Id-rather-be-poorer-with-fewer-migrants-Farage-says.html
    Sure, without mass immigration and EU membership, we might all be c£100 a year worse off on average. A real horror story.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,686
    MP_SE said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    I am sure S&P employ a few decent people but their track record leaves a lot to be desired, whether it be the AAA rating Enron enjoyed right up until their collapse, being fined for inflating the ratings on subrime mortgage bonds, etc.
    I don't think that's true re Enron, it was "investment grade" but not AAA. Very, very few companies are rated AAA - only three in the whole of the US today.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,562

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    That's why he's a hero.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    JEO said:

    antifrank said:

    JEO said:

    antifrank said:

    MP_SE said:

    < Sarcasm > Thanks Dave < / Sarcasm>. It is becoming increasingly hard to see a united Tory party post EU referendum:

    "Cameron’s revenge on purdah rebels – he sacks them from the Council of Europe"

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2015/10/camerons-revenge-on-purdah-rebels-he-sacks-them-from-the-council-of-europe.html

    As martyrdoms go, it falls some way short of being stoned or thrown to the lions.
    But it's pretty unpleasant to discipline people because they wouldn't go along with your plan for the taxpayer to fund your side of an election. Cameron has really dropped in my opinion over this.
    Prime Minister punishes rebels against his position. It's absolutely standard.
    When your position is thoroughly undemocratic and against the fundamentals your party should believe in, you should admit your mistake and let it go. Cameron is proving here that he never realised why he was wrong in the first place. The more I think about it the more annoyed at him I get. He attempted to trample over long-established democratic precedents and now he's basically insisting he was right to do so. Profoundly unconservative.
    It's very unwise when your party is split down the middle. But unless you're in Cameron's inner circle unless you keep your nose clean and play by the rules, you're history.

    It's my biggest criticism of him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    rcs1000 said:

    It will be interesting to see how the farming community view prospects of an OUT vote. The industry is a hefty recipient of EU subsidies (around £3.6 billion) so the implications of that would have to be taken in to account. If those subsidies slide away expect to see mile upon mile of IN posters erected on every field in the country.

    They would be replaced by UK subsidies as would the other EU spending in the UK. Leaving not much difference.
    As part of any EU 'trade deal' eg access to single market, we would make other contributions to EU budget.
    Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year - which is the difference now between what we put in and what we get back.
    There's another point. We'd have £10bn quid that the EU currently spends in the UK, that we'd get to choose how to spend instead!
    Well said that man.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    First post CNBC debate poll:

    http://www.oann.com/gopdebate/

    Trump 33
    Carson 23
    Rubio 14
    Cruz 8
    Fiorina 6
    Paul 4
    Bush 4
    Christie 3
    Kasich 2
    Huckabee 1

    Others less than 1.

    Trump+Carson+Cruz= 63% (Trump gets about half of votes in that group)
    Rubio+Bush+Christie+Kasich= 24% ( Rubio gets 60% of votes in that group)

    Has your opinion become more or less favourable after the debate:

    Trump
    More: 50
    Less: 23

    Carson
    More: 51
    Less: 20

    Rubio
    More: 64
    Less: 16

    Cruz
    More: 62
    Less: 16

    Bush
    More: 17
    Less: 51
  • Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Christ,the EU fanatics seem scared of they own shadows,just laughable.
    They really are pathetic, as someone says below they are relying on the inconvenience of leaving.

    A negative campaign is all they have.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,686
    By the way, re transhipments: around 250,000 TEUs go from the UK via Rotterdam each year.

    Interestingly, more than 1,000,000 come the other way. Which means that the figures for the EU's trade surplus with the UK are overstated, as they include a lot of imports that are from China (or wherever) via Rotterdam.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    I am sure S&P employ a few decent people but their track record leaves a lot to be desired, whether it be the AAA rating Enron enjoyed right up until their collapse, being fined for inflating the ratings on subrime mortgage bonds, etc.
    I don't think that's true re Enron, it was "investment grade" but not AAA. Very, very few companies are rated AAA - only three in the whole of the US today.
    Yes, you are correct. It was BBB+
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,562

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Christ,the EU fanatics seem scared of they own shadows,just laughable.
    What can they do except promise the terrors of the Earth?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    rcs1000 said:

    MP_SE said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    I am sure S&P employ a few decent people but their track record leaves a lot to be desired, whether it be the AAA rating Enron enjoyed right up until their collapse, being fined for inflating the ratings on subrime mortgage bonds, etc.
    I don't think that's true re Enron, it was "investment grade" but not AAA. Very, very few companies are rated AAA - only three in the whole of the US today.
    If you read it, it's a notch for leaving and another notch for ajockalypse now.

    Creditworthiness and prosperity of a free UK, or rUK, doesn't appear to enter into it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    Sean_F said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    That's why he's a hero.
    He's my role model.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    It's quite obvious that this is a coordinated series of annoucements today by the Government and BSE. Someone in No.10 has had a word with someone in DC: 'it would be awfully helpful if you could..'

    What it tells us is that the Government and BSE is rattled. Project Fear indeed.
    Billy Bragg on QT tonight.

    Early night it is.
    Do people still watch QT?
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Speedy said:

    First post CNBC debate poll:

    http://www.oann.com/gopdebate/

    Trump 33
    Carson 23
    Rubio 14
    Cruz 8
    Fiorina 6
    Paul 4
    Bush 4
    Christie 3
    Kasich 2
    Huckabee 1

    Others less than 1.

    Cruz has to be a lay as the right-wing vote is being tied up by Carson and Trump so there is little opportunity for his polling to improve.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,562
    edited October 2015

    Sean_F said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    That's why he's a hero.
    He's my role model.
    It's interesting if you read the books that James Bond's profession is destroying him. The drinking, womanising, and gambling are all ways of coping with the fact that he kills for a living.

    I don't know if you ever Jack's Return Home (filmed as Get Carter) and its successor novels by Ted Lewis. He's very much a working class James Bond.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,039

    So far we've had they'll be no subsidies, £ 5 billion and 9 billion..Either way, it's something that will need to be addressed at some point before the referendum as it will clearly be a vote decider for many

    Absolute tosh. No one has said there will be £9 billion. And the only comment about there being none was made by someone pointing out how that had worked in another country. No one has suggested that woold be the case in the UK.

    If you are going to make stuff up then at least try to be a bit more intelligent about it.
    You said it !!! "Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year"
    That was the difference between the amount contributed by the UK and the amount received back (the latter including, but not limited to, farming subsidies).

    He hasn't said how much should or would be given over to farming subsidies if no contribution at all was made or receipts taken.

    What is arithmetically undeniable is that if subsidies were retained at exactly the same level, and all other spending from EU receipts maintained (that is, if we funded it domestically out of some of the money we would otherwise have used to pay the EU), we could maintain all that and still be better off by 9.8 billion per year (thus "the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year")
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,927
    JEO said:

    Danny565 said:

    Again this won't help Leave

    Britain faces losing its AAA status with S&P for the first time in nearly 40 years if it leaves the European Union

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11963978/Britains-credit-rating-could-be-cut-by-two-notches-if-it-leaves-EU-warns-SandP.html

    Meh. As a leftie who's on the fence about the EU, "warnings" from the CBI/credit-agency lobby are if anything more likely to push me towards Leave. I want to hear what the EU does (or could do) for me, and what it does for the things I care about - I don't want this generic doom-mongering from people who are only concerned that their own bank balances will be hit.
    Yes, I feel the same. The Remain campaign has done an awful job so far. They started by giving themselves silly initials. They then had a conspiracy theorist no-one has heard of to appeal to the youth. They then started to insult half the electorate as 'quitters'. Now they're resorting to scare stories and easily disproven falsehoods.

    I want a clear positive picture from Remain. I want to hear a vision of an EU future that maximises the benefits and neutralises the dangers, and how we're going to get there. Vague ideals about 'openness' and 'influence' simply won't cut it. Where's the beef?
    The problem is that the fear card is the strongest they have. I suspect they are worried that 'going positive' won't work because there is so much distrust of the EU as an institution. The 'stick with nurse' argument seems to be the dominant narrative and I don't expect that to change.

    I am genuinely undecided but I do admit that I am beginning to lean towards leave.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    @NewStatesman: James Bond is a borderline rapist employed to murder people – and yet he's a hero @PennyRed https://t.co/IPE4zYkYnX https://t.co/gJPjUO4SWZ

    That's why he's a hero.
    He's my role model.
    It's interesting if you read the books that James Bond's profession is destroying him. The drinking, womanising, and gambling are all ways of coping with the fact that he kills for a living.

    I don't know if you ever Jack's Return Home (filmed as Get Carter) and its successor novels by Ted Lewis. He's very much a working class James Bond.
    Read them all, and love them. You known that, I know that, but the plethora of morons with whom we also inhabit this island with seem sadly oblivious to it.

    I shall try the latter. Thanks.
  • So far we've had they'll be no subsidies, £ 5 billion and 9 billion..Either way, it's something that will need to be addressed at some point before the referendum as it will clearly be a vote decider for many

    Absolute tosh. No one has said there will be £9 billion. And the only comment about there being none was made by someone pointing out how that had worked in another country. No one has suggested that woold be the case in the UK.

    If you are going to make stuff up then at least try to be a bit more intelligent about it.
    You said it !!! "Actually the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year"
    That was the difference between the amount contributed by the UK and the amount received back (the latter including, but not limited to, farming subsidies).

    He hasn't said how much should or would be given over to farming subsidies if no contribution at all was made or receipts taken.

    What is arithmetically undeniable is that if subsidies were retained at exactly the same level, and all other spending from EU receipts maintained (that is, if we funded it domestically out of some of the money we would otherwise have used to pay the EU), we could maintain all that and still be better off by 9.8 billion per year (thus "the 'difference' would be £9.8 billion a year")
    Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't trying to prove a point. I'm genuinely undecided - just concerned that we'd being taking a huge leap of faith to leave without being fully aware of the circumstances...the concern being is that those circumstances would really be known until after we'd done it.

    I appreciate the desire for the leavers for the UK to be in charge of its own destiny but if that destiny is to face financial ruin as a result of leaving (in the short term anyway) it doesn't sound that appealing.

  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2015
    Labour NEC shortlisting panel for Oldham West

    Ellie Reeves
    Jennie Formby (Len McCluskey's ex girlfriend)
    Keith Vaz
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