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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Antifrank looks at what now for the House of Lords

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    Anorak said:

    Pong said:

    JEO said:

    perdix said:

    Golly

    Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than countries such as Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq, according to a report.

    The capital recorded more than 2,500 new cases of TB last year - about 40% of the UK's total.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1577136/astounding-rates-of-tb-in-parts-of-london
    Interesting comparisons but perhaps not quite "fair"? It's likely that some parts of Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq have a higher incidence than some parts of London.
    Not good anyway.

    My oldest was born in London and had to get a TB vaccine which left a long term scar that his friends do not have. Apparently we eliminated it in the UK but African migrants brought it back.
    BCG vaccine, I had mine in 1990 IIRC.
    Sunil, I don't think you quite understand.

    JEO's oldest son is SCARRED FOR LIFE.

    BY THE AFRICAN MIGRANTS.
    Ah, I remember queueing up as a 12 year old at school for my BCG (and the dreaded, terrifying-sounding, but innocuous "six needles" beforehand). All the boys leaving the room, by unspoken agreement, held their arm and adopted an expression which spoke of long-lasting trauma and extreme pain. A frisson of fear built up amongst the queuers as child after child left 'the room'.

    Turned out not to be that bad, all in all. Bit like a Tory government :D

    The real worry are the antibiotic resistant strains that are showing up. Lots of bad prescribing in the Third World, self medicating for everything etc..
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Govt defeated another fatal motion in Lords - re payments to asylum seekers.

    Govt won by 195 to 68.

    That's a lot of Con Peers hanging around until 8pm - Con making big effort to win in the Lords.
  • Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    Antifrank is right to ask the key question .What is the Lords for?In 1911 it emerged as a revising chamber.No doubt that this was a concession to get through the more important issue of HOC contol over financial matters until its eventual abolition.
    what is the prime function of the Lords to day.Nominally it is as a revising chamber but the reality is that is a bloated repository to reward politicians from all parties for their service to the party.
    The HOL is long past its sell by date -a costly anachronism which does not require reform but abolition.
    There is away of moving towards abolition.That is to finally solve the west lothian question by moving to a federal Britain with home rule and English,Scottish,Welsh and N Ireland parliaments.
    The house of ords as second chamber would be replaced by a small elected uk parliament to handle defence ,security , foreign affairs,currency and UK wide infrastructure.

    It amazes me that the HOL is treated with such deference.Its time for cross party campaign to move from the early unsatisfactory 20th century settlement to the 21st century abolition abolition
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Anorak said:

    Pong said:

    JEO said:

    perdix said:

    Golly

    Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than countries such as Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq, according to a report.

    The capital recorded more than 2,500 new cases of TB last year - about 40% of the UK's total.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1577136/astounding-rates-of-tb-in-parts-of-london
    Interesting comparisons but perhaps not quite "fair"? It's likely that some parts of Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq have a higher incidence than some parts of London.
    Not good anyway.

    My oldest was born in London and had to get a TB vaccine which left a long term scar that his friends do not have. Apparently we eliminated it in the UK but African migrants brought it back.
    BCG vaccine, I had mine in 1990 IIRC.
    Sunil, I don't think you quite understand.

    JEO's oldest son is SCARRED FOR LIFE.

    BY THE AFRICAN MIGRANTS.
    Ah, I remember queueing up as a 12 year old at school for my BCG (and the dreaded, terrifying-sounding, but innocuous "six needles" beforehand). All the boys leaving the room, by unspoken agreement, held their arm and adopted an expression which spoke of long-lasting trauma and extreme pain. A frisson of fear built up amongst the queuers as child after child left 'the room'.

    Turned out not to be that bad, all in all. Bit like a Tory government :D
    The real worry are the antibiotic resistant strains that are showing up. Lots of bad prescribing in the Third World, self medicating for everything etc..

    It's not just the third world. Many people given courses of antibiotics in Europe and N America fail to complete it.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    Tim_B said:

    Anorak said:

    Pong said:

    JEO said:

    perdix said:

    Golly

    Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than countries such as Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq, according to a report.

    The capital recorded more than 2,500 new cases of TB last year - about 40% of the UK's total.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1577136/astounding-rates-of-tb-in-parts-of-london
    Interesting comparisons but perhaps not quite "fair"? It's likely that some parts of Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq have a higher incidence than some parts of London.
    Not good anyway.

    My oldest was born in London and had to get a TB vaccine which left a long term scar that his friends do not have. Apparently we eliminated it in the UK but African migrants brought it back.
    BCG vaccine, I had mine in 1990 IIRC.
    Sunil, I don't think you quite understand.

    JEO's oldest son is SCARRED FOR LIFE.

    BY THE AFRICAN MIGRANTS.
    Ah, I remember queueing up as a 12 year old at school for my BCG (and the dreaded, terrifying-sounding, but innocuous "six needles" beforehand). All the boys leaving the room, by unspoken agreement, held their arm and adopted an expression which spoke of long-lasting trauma and extreme pain. A frisson of fear built up amongst the queuers as child after child left 'the room'.

    Turned out not to be that bad, all in all. Bit like a Tory government :D
    The real worry are the antibiotic resistant strains that are showing up. Lots of bad prescribing in the Third World, self medicating for everything etc..
    It's not just the third world. Many people given courses of antibiotics in Europe and N America fail to complete it.

    But the biggest problem is in countries with poorer health systems and lower levels of education

    I made myself very, very unpopular among my wife's family in the Old Country by binning a considerable quantity of very ancient antibiotics that they would dose themselves with in self taught style. What 6 year out of date erythromycin would do for you (stored at a mean temperature of 25C), I shudder to think.....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
  • Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    Are you Danny Blanchflower?

    If so, I claim my five pounds....
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Oh dear - I wonder if there's a problem with the result of that earlier Lords vote.

    The result of the vote on asylum seekers is on the Parliament website - but the first 2 votes re Individual Voter Registration haven't been put up.

    Seems very odd - I wonder if there was a problem with the count on the 2nd vote.

    It didn't feel right - I now wonder if it wasn't right!
  • felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I still find the notion of drawing boindries based on registered voters rather than population distinctly distasteful. An MP represents all members of the public in their constituency, not just those who vote for them or only those that vote.
  • felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    They would need to find an additional source of income or reduce their living costs
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Anorak said:

    Pong said:

    JEO said:

    perdix said:

    Golly

    Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than countries such as Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq, according to a report.

    The capital recorded more than 2,500 new cases of TB last year - about 40% of the UK's total.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1577136/astounding-rates-of-tb-in-parts-of-london
    Interesting comparisons but perhaps not quite "fair"? It's likely that some parts of Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq have a higher incidence than some parts of London.
    Not good anyway.

    My oldest was born in London and had to get a TB vaccine which left a long term scar that his friends do not have. Apparently we eliminated it in the UK but African migrants brought it back.
    BCG vaccine, I had mine in 1990 IIRC.
    Sunil, I don't think you quite understand.

    JEO's oldest son is SCARRED FOR LIFE.

    BY THE AFRICAN MIGRANTS.
    Ah, I remember queueing up as a 12 year old at school for my BCG (and the dreaded, terrifying-sounding, but innocuous "six needles" beforehand). All the boys leaving the room, by unspoken agreement, held their arm and adopted an expression which spoke of long-lasting trauma and extreme pain. A frisson of fear built up amongst the queuers as child after child left 'the room'.

    Turned out not to be that bad, all in all. Bit like a Tory government :D
    The real worry are the antibiotic resistant strains that are showing up. Lots of bad prescribing in the Third World, self medicating for everything etc..
    It's not just the third world. Many people given courses of antibiotics in Europe and N America fail to complete it.
    But the biggest problem is in countries with poorer health systems and lower levels of education

    I made myself very, very unpopular among my wife's family in the Old Country by binning a considerable quantity of very ancient antibiotics that they would dose themselves with in self taught style. What 6 year out of date erythromycin would do for you (stored at a mean temperature of 25C), I shudder to think.....

    So it's official - your family caused MRSA ;)
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited October 2015

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.
  • felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    They would need to find an additional source of income or reduce their living costs
    Get a third job then...nice one
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    They would need to find an additional source of income or reduce their living costs
    Get a third job then...nice one
    That is just what real people do if they want to get on.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    rogerh said:

    Antifrank is right to ask the key question .What is the Lords for?In 1911 it emerged as a revising chamber.No doubt that this was a concession to get through the more important issue of HOC contol over financial matters until its eventual abolition.
    what is the prime function of the Lords to day.Nominally it is as a revising chamber but the reality is that is a bloated repository to reward politicians from all parties for their service to the party.
    The HOL is long past its sell by date -a costly anachronism which does not require reform but abolition.
    There is away of moving towards abolition.That is to finally solve the west lothian question by moving to a federal Britain with home rule and English,Scottish,Welsh and N Ireland parliaments.
    The house of ords as second chamber would be replaced by a small elected uk parliament to handle defence ,security , foreign affairs,currency and UK wide infrastructure.

    It amazes me that the HOL is treated with such deference.Its time for cross party campaign to move from the early unsatisfactory 20th century settlement to the 21st century abolition abolition

    For me, it's the question of whether an elected House of Commons can be expected to have the required knowledge and experience to draft and decide on laws that cover everything in our lives. Add in the political aspects and whipping, and it's clear that ill-thought out laws could - and do - pass through the Commons.

    So you need a group who can look at what comes out of the Commons and say whether it requires changes - a revising chamber. This is the HoL. Unfortunately this is becoming an increasingly politicised body, which may hinder its work.

    Any electoral solution will just worsen the solution. My preferred solution of a House of Experts has problems, but they are much more fixable than the current system's problems, or those of an elected Lords.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TKA It is what most people have to do..we do .. and we don't get any tax credits ..
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    "Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state." The Kraken Wakes

    Labournomics - still can't believe he typed and posted that. :)
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.
    tell me Felix...in your world, do Food Banks exist?
  • felix said:

    "Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state." The Kraken Wakes

    Labournomics - still can't believe he typed and posted that. :)

    I didn't post it...numpty
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    edited October 2015
    I've just started to have a glance through the Lib Dem peers, to see what qualification they might have as lawmakers for this country.

    Can anyone see any worthwhile expertise in this married couple?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Beith
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroness_Maddock

    EDIT - both elevated to the peerage after losing their seats at General elections
  • felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    They would need to find an additional source of income or reduce their living costs
    Get a third job then...nice one
    Increase their hours or reduce their costs.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Alistair said:

    I still find the notion of drawing boindries based on registered voters rather than population distinctly distasteful. An MP represents all members of the public in their constituency, not just those who vote for them or only those that vote.

    If they were based on population you would have MPs being elected in metropolitan areas with very small numbers of votes compared to elsewhere. That would make the result even less representative than it is currently.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Speedy said:

    Speedy said:

    Moses_ said:




    Oh dear, what a shame, never mind heh?

    You will regret this, a government that cannot be held accountable to voters will make the very existence of it controversial, people will end up hating parliament itself to a scale never seen since before 1832.
    Most of these objections can be boiled down to: I don't agree with the General Election result.
    Lets say the result is Con 24% Lab 43%, Labour would still not be able to form a majority government, on Con 31%, Lab 38% (the reverse of 2015) the Tories will still have a majority.

    Now a government that loses the popular vote by 7 points would be so unpopular that it doesn't have democratic legitimacy if it stays in power, there will be riots on election night (what would have happened in 1997 in case that despite the result the Tories still had a majority).
    There is NO chance the Tories will have a majority on 31 vs 38 for Labour. I doubt the theory will be tested though.
  • TKA It is what most people have to do..we do .. and we don't get any tax credits ..

    Ah DickyDodd...I wondered when you'd stick your head over the parapet...can't keep a miserable old dog down can you?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    felix said:



    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater

    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O

    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs

    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?

    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple

    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.

    tell me Felix...in your world, do Food Banks exist?

    Course they do and your point is.... not more Labournomics surely. You ever heard the old saying about what to do when you're in a big hole? STOP DIGGING!
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    The official in charge went on Ulster TV to announce that anyone who had been disenfranchised should get in touch with him. Personally.

    Yes, an end to multiple votes by phantom voters in other parts of the UK is long overdue.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    The people being culled off the list are surely more than likely to be non voters anyway. So turnout should increase proportionately to the decrease in the register with the number of voters actually voting remaining roughly the same.

    Some apathy may set in back in Scotland, though the SNP will still romp home as the people not bothering to vote will most likely split evenly amongst the parties up there.

    That's my theory anyway :)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    felix said:

    "Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state." The Kraken Wakes

    Labournomics - still can't believe he typed and posted that. :)

    I didn't post it...numpty
    ooops - guilty these colllapsed posts get very confusing!
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:



    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O

    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs

    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?

    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple

    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.

    tell me Felix...in your world, do Food Banks exist?

    Course they do and your point is.... not more Labournomics surely. You ever heard the old saying about what to do when you're in a big hole? STOP DIGGING!

    The point comes when no matter how much one works and cuts back there will come a time when there just ain't no money left. Whether you like tax credits or hate them the fact remains that if you cut them too quickly then poor people will end up worse off...to the point of losing their homes.

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    Tim_B said:

    Tim_B said:

    Anorak said:

    Pong said:

    JEO said:

    perdix said:

    Golly

    Parts of London have higher rates of tuberculosis than countries such as Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq, according to a report.

    The capital recorded more than 2,500 new cases of TB last year - about 40% of the UK's total.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1577136/astounding-rates-of-tb-in-parts-of-london
    Interesting comparisons but perhaps not quite "fair"? It's likely that some parts of Rwanda, Eritrea and Iraq have a higher incidence than some parts of London.
    Not good anyway.

    My oldest was born in London and had to get a TB vaccine which left a long term scar that his friends do not have. Apparently we eliminated it in the UK but African migrants brought it back.
    BCG vaccine, I had mine in 1990 IIRC.
    Sunil, I don't think you quite understand.

    JEO's oldest son is SCARRED FOR LIFE.

    BY THE AFRICAN MIGRANTS.
    Ah, I remember queueing up as a 12 year old at school for my BCG (and the dreaded, terrifying-sounding, but innocuous "six needles" beforehand). All the boys leaving the room, by unspoken agreement, held their arm and adopted an expression which spoke of long-lasting trauma and extreme pain. A frisson of fear built up amongst the queuers as child after child left 'the room'.

    Turned out not to be that bad, all in all. Bit like a Tory government :D
    The real worry are the antibiotic resistant strains that are showing up. Lots of bad prescribing in the Third World, self medicating for everything etc..
    It's not just the third world. Many people given courses of antibiotics in Europe and N America fail to complete it.
    But the biggest problem is in countries with poorer health systems and lower levels of education

    I made myself very, very unpopular among my wife's family in the Old Country by binning a considerable quantity of very ancient antibiotics that they would dose themselves with in self taught style. What 6 year out of date erythromycin would do for you (stored at a mean temperature of 25C), I shudder to think.....
    So it's official - your family caused MRSA ;)

    From Peru? It is somewhat unlikely.

    Similar medicine hoarding and re-usage is endemic in the Third World. When you combine poverty with access to the miracles of modern pharmacology and add poor education in to the mix....
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    AndyJS said:
    It's only one poll and CDU/SPD grand coalition still the only game in town. Unless, of course, you want AfD !
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Good evening, everyone.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
    Read up on Prime Bank Guarantee scams. This always makes me giggle -

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-03/accused-fraudster-spent-his-money-on-other-frauds
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O

    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs

    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?

    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple

    They would need to find an additional source of income or reduce their living costs

    Get a third job then...nice one

    That is just what real people do if they want to get on.

    You mean that some people still take responsibility for their own circumstances? Whatever next
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,143
    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Arsenal youth/reserves getting a good hiding.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    felix said:

    "Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state." The Kraken Wakes

    Labournomics - still can't believe he typed and posted that. :)

    I suspect he actually believes in this twaddle which makes the typing and posting more believable but his credibility less so, if that's possible.
  • Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    10?!
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    I'm not sure what's funnier out of that and chelski losing again!
    Pulpstar said:

    Arsenal youth/reserves getting a good hiding.

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
    Read up on Prime Bank Guarantee scams. This always makes me giggle -

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-03/accused-fraudster-spent-his-money-on-other-frauds
    Amazing. Loses the proceeds of the scam to other con artists.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I'm not sure what's funnier out of that and chelski losing again!

    Pulpstar said:

    Arsenal youth/reserves getting a good hiding.

    Quite a few of the Arsenal are first teamers. Both the Ox and Walcott off for subs though.

    Leicester City reserves vs Dull City is proving pretty poor listening.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    I've just started to have a glance through the Lib Dem peers, to see what qualification they might have as lawmakers for this country.

    Can anyone see any worthwhile expertise in this married couple?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Beith
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroness_Maddock

    EDIT - both elevated to the peerage after losing their seats at General elections

    Which of their constituents could possibly have thought that by not voting for them they would gift them a lifelong sinecure still in Parliament, rather than kick them out of Parliament altogether?
  • TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346
    It's not removing tax credits and replacing them with wages that's the problem. Obviously.
    But you can't remove thousands of pounds from the working poor in one go and not replace it. Simply not fair and both cruel and heartless. Lacking completely in empathy.
    Always good to come on here and remind myself that that's many Tories default setting.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
    Bring back the 'Like' button. This is spot on.
  • MP_SE said:

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
    Graham, Pataki, Santorum, Jindal and Gilmore should withdraw.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    TKA It is what most people have to do..we do .. and we don't get any tax credits ..

    Ah DickyDodd...I wondered when you'd stick your head over the parapet...can't keep a miserable old dog down can you?
    I have to agree. RD shows considerable tolerance in giving you the opportunity to keep coming back.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MP_SE said:

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
    Once we get to Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina that will start to happen quickly, possibly earlier if a candidate is felt to be failing to keep pace, and the money folks get cold feet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,143

    MP_SE said:

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
    Graham, Pataki, Santorum, Jindal and Gilmore should withdraw.
    These guys are relegated to the under-stage, or what ever it is called.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MikeL said:

    Oh dear - I wonder if there's a problem with the result of that earlier Lords vote.

    The result of the vote on asylum seekers is on the Parliament website - but the first 2 votes re Individual Voter Registration haven't been put up.

    Seems very odd - I wonder if there was a problem with the count on the 2nd vote.

    It didn't feel right - I now wonder if it wasn't right!

    Somone better tell Speedy quick

    I think he retired into the study with a good whiskey and a revolver.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    MP_SE said:

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
    Graham, Pataki, Santorum, Jindal and Gilmore should withdraw.
    These guys are relegated to the under-stage, or what ever it is called.
    Happy Hour debate
  • Moses_ said:

    MikeL said:

    Oh dear - I wonder if there's a problem with the result of that earlier Lords vote.

    The result of the vote on asylum seekers is on the Parliament website - but the first 2 votes re Individual Voter Registration haven't been put up.

    Seems very odd - I wonder if there was a problem with the count on the 2nd vote.

    It didn't feel right - I now wonder if it wasn't right!

    Somone better tell Speedy quick

    I think he retired into the study with a good whiskey and a revolver.
    didn't seem so unlikely that some opposition members wanted to register a government defeat, for the record, without opposing the bill
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:



    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs

    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?

    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple

    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.

    tell me Felix...in your world, do Food Banks exist?

    Course they do and your point is.... not more Labournomics surely. You ever heard the old saying about what to do when you're in a big hole? STOP DIGGING!

    The point comes when no matter how much one works and cuts back there will come a time when there just ain't no money left. Whether you like tax credits or hate them the fact remains that if you cut them too quickly then poor people will end up worse off...to the point of losing their homes.



    Just out of interest, what do you regard as the necessities of life? Those things that absolutely cannot be cut back.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,143

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    .
    Me too! We have been proved right in spades, although it was obvious this was a political car crash from the minute Osborne sat down from his speech.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    So why is Osborne so fixated with this now...he's been there for five years without slashing and burning. By definition the tax credits bill will go down because free childcare is being extended whereas before 70% of it was recoverable through tax credits and 2010 - 2015 pay rises were minimal. As pay goes up tax credits come down so the tax credits bill is going to go down in the next few years anyway
    I genuinely think he would liked to have done this years ago. His hand was stayed by the presence of his coalition partners. I suspect such a measure -if proposed in the previous parliament - would have faltered and died (never to be resurrected) or would have led to the collapse of the government at the time.
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.
    Precisely the point I made last night. We are now in a position where tax credits is regarded as legitimate income not welfare. Insane and unsustainable.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,143
    Tim_B said:

    MP_SE said:

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    Too many scrubs are still on the field. The numbers need slashing so the candidates get more time for in depth answers.
    Graham, Pataki, Santorum, Jindal and Gilmore should withdraw.
    These guys are relegated to the under-stage, or what ever it is called.
    Happy Hour debate
    I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour, but...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Evening all.

    I just saw Spectre

    I haven't been that disappointed in a film since The Phantom Menace
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,143

    Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    10?!
    Yep. Full details here:
    http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/third-gop-2016-debate-colorado-when-is-it-215162

    Jeb needs a killer session this time, or he is in deep trouble.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Can people please learn to either quote properly on here, or just write their posts with an @ to the person they're replying to?

    These posts with one part quoted and then a massive stream of replies and counter-replies not quoted properly are an effing nightmare to read.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Scott_P said:

    Evening all.

    I just saw Spectre

    I haven't been that disappointed in a film since The Phantom Menace

    Don't do any spoilers!!!!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143

    felix said:

    "Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state." The Kraken Wakes

    Labournomics - still can't believe he typed and posted that. :)

    I suspect he actually believes in this twaddle which makes the typing and posting more believable but his credibility less so, if that's possible.
    To be fair, that was my typo - Tax credit cuts make less productive people more productive - as they are not so subsidised by the state.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Scott_P said:

    Evening all.

    I just saw Spectre

    I haven't been that disappointed in a film since The Phantom Menace

    Ouch. You know Spectre is bad when it is mentioned in the same sentence as The Phantom Menace. I tried to watch Quantum of Solace the other evening but gave up. I slept through most of Casino Royale as well. It went downhill after Goldeneye.
  • Over in the States. GOP debate tomorrow night. The candidates on main debate stage:

    Donald Trump, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina, Chris Christie, and John Kasich.

    10?!
    Yep. Full details here:
    http://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/third-gop-2016-debate-colorado-when-is-it-215162

    Jeb needs a killer session this time, or he is in deep trouble.
    I mean wow, how his odds have dropped. Touched 6.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited October 2015
    Moses_ said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    I posted something similar earlier but didn't really get an explanation but I was looking at the "Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2015", (as you do) and the figure of expenditure for tax credits in 2010/11 was £28,938 million and in 2014/15 it was £29,187...virtually flat. Where is the ballooning tax credit bill?

    2004-2011.
    Boooooom! Headshot.
    snip
    I agree...but we should remember that in that period of time the UK economy was turned around, the deficit problem was taken on and employment rose to record high levels. Maybe, it was because the cuts weren't made that the coalition was able to achieve that...had these cuts taken place then, the risk of choking off the recovery would have been greater
    Tax credits make less-productive people more productive - as they are not subsidised by the state.

    I know this might blow your mind.

    But it might HELP the recovery

    o_O
    Or...they result in families not being able to pay their rent and mortgages and result in even higher welfare costs
    LOL = now tax credits which give people state money are not subsidised by the state!!!! Is this how the magic money tree works?
    Tell me something. If a working couple's current income matches their current living costs, but then lose £1500 of their income what happens? It's pretty simple
    £1500 is not their income - it's the income of other taxpayers. What real people do when their money goes down is they cut their coat accordingly and adjust their living costs.
    Precisely the point I made last night. We are now in a position where tax credits is regarded as legitimate income not welfare. Insane and unsustainable.
    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money. It doesn't involve any extra income, just that you keep more of your own.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    I believe most people receiving tax credits From HMRC aren't earning enough to pay tax.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    Because it was designed by the insane G.Brown?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
    ve

    I have family who are recipients of tax credits too. They're living beyond their means on the taxes paid by others. They will cut back their unnecessary spending or work more hours.

    And those others are not much better off than them - or - quite frequently - no better off per hour at all.

    You have not answered my long-standing question btw - why should those working full time subsidise those working full time. Frequently it is by choice.

    And you know that people who are full time carers get a carer's allowance, right?

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    Actually it seems like a tax credit given which is greater than the tax paid by a non tax payer.

    *massages temples*
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,422
    edited October 2015
    I think my brother gets tax credits. He may restructure his small business slightly if they come to an end... will have to do the sums at the time :)
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143
    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    Indeed. It is a simple welfare payment. GO should have renamed them 'government pay subsidies' or similar. in 2011. Libs couldn't have done anything about that
  • Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    Because it's just a benefit, not a tax deduction, by another name.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    I wonder how many people in the Tax Credit debate know even this much?

    Funny story - a very lefty young lady of my acquaintance, when introduced to the concept of progressive taxation in an economics class, denounced it as monstrous. Apparently she though that progressive taxation was just a name. She was incandescent at the immorality (as she saw it)....
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,716
    edited October 2015
    Moses_ said:

    Precisely the point I made last night. We are now in a position where tax credits is regarded as legitimate income not welfare. Insane and unsustainable.

    Very true! It was an act of profound wickedness by Gordon Brown that he made great swathes of the population dependent on state largesse, which would one day have to be cut. It was the mentality of the drug pusher. (In hindsight everyone should have just invested the money in a wine cellar or something, rather than becoming hooked, but it's too late now for many.)
  • Mortimer said:

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
    ve

    I have family who are recipients of tax credits too. They're living beyond their means on the taxes paid by others. They will cut back their unnecessary spending or work more hours.

    And those others are not much better off than them - or - quite frequently - no better off per hour at all.

    You have not answered my long-standing question btw - why should those working full time subsidise those working full time. Frequently it is by choice.

    And you know that people who are full time carers get a carer's allowance, right?

    "And you know that people who are full time carers get a carer's allowance, right?" Yes, which means that they cannot work extra hours to make up the tax credit loss
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143
    Is there any truth to the tale that they are called tax credits so as to be considered negative income tax on the UK balance sheet, rather than part of DWP budget?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Tim_B said:



    Welfare involves a payment to you of money paid by other taxpayers.

    A tax credit involves no payment at all - you simply keep more of your own money.

    Lol except the credits are larger than the amounts of tax paid. Often there is no tax paid. The word "Tax credit" is a political fiction
    That's insane - how can you have a tax credit greater than the tax paid - that's a welfare payment by another name.
    Because it was designed by the insane G.Brown?
    Ah that explains it. Reminds me of 'Fire' by the Crazy World of Arthur Brown.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
    Read up on Prime Bank Guarantee scams. This always makes me giggle -

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-03/accused-fraudster-spent-his-money-on-other-frauds
    Amazing. Loses the proceeds of the scam to other con artists.
    You'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    MP_SE said:

    Ouch. You know Spectre is bad when it is mentioned in the same sentence as The Phantom Menace. I tried to watch Quantum of Solace the other evening but gave up.

    I would rather watch Quantum of Solace on repeat rather than sit through Spectre again
  • Mortimer said:

    Is there any truth to the tale that they are called tax credits so as to be considered negative income tax on the UK balance sheet, rather than part of DWP budget?

    Well HMRC manages tax credits. But it does manage other "benefits" like Child Benefit.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:
    It's only one poll and CDU/SPD grand coalition still the only game in town. Unless, of course, you want AfD !
    AfD are pretty centrist compared to most other European populist parties.
  • Mortimer said:

    Is there any truth to the tale that they are called tax credits so as to be considered negative income tax on the UK balance sheet, rather than part of DWP budget?

    Well HMRC manages tax credits. But it does manage other "benefits" like Child Benefit.
    No that is not the case
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,228

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
    Read up on Prime Bank Guarantee scams. This always makes me giggle -

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-03/accused-fraudster-spent-his-money-on-other-frauds
    Amazing. Loses the proceeds of the scam to other con artists.
    You'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh....
    You'll also find that in general criminals gamble away or lose their money in a nearly infinite number of stupid ways. The reason that the drug trade works is that the vast markups at each step of the pipeline can support all the incompetent management, theft etc.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,143
    edited October 2015

    Mortimer said:

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
    ve

    I have family who are recipients of tax credits too. They're living beyond their means on the taxes paid by others. They will cut back their unnecessary spending or work more hours.

    And those others are not much better off than them - or - quite frequently - no better off per hour at all.

    You have not answered my long-standing question btw - why should those working full time subsidise those working full time. Frequently it is by choice.

    And you know that people who are full time carers get a carer's allowance, right?

    "And you know that people who are full time carers get a carer's allowance, right?" Yes, which means that they cannot work extra hours to make up the tax credit loss
    No - it means if they earn more than £110 a week then they are less in need than others.

    Government welfare, whether it is carers allowance, housing benefit, tax credits etc, when added to part-time income, should not be exceeding the benefits cap.

    Tax credits allow it too. How is that fair to people working full-time for that largesse to be given to others.

  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Completely OT

    I'm drinking some very good, and cheap, wine that I bought from a small vineyard in Portugal where I helped a little with their harvest on my recent trip there. It's owned by a lovely couple, an English guy and his German wife, the wines are all organic and I've found through extensive testing that they don't give me a headache in the morning.

    I'd highly recommend the wines, and a visit to their place if you happen to be in the right part of the country.

    http://vinhoscortem.com
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited October 2015
    Scott_P said:

    MP_SE said:

    Ouch. You know Spectre is bad when it is mentioned in the same sentence as The Phantom Menace. I tried to watch Quantum of Solace the other evening but gave up.

    I would rather watch Quantum of Solace on repeat rather than sit through Spectre again
    One of the reasons I stopped going to movies (other than multiplexes are all soulless sterile places) is that I have a 10 minute rule, from watching so many movies on DVD. If the movie doesn't grab me in the first 10 minutes, I'm outta there.

    And, speaking of The Walking Dead, which is even slower and more glacial in this series than before, the co-producer is Caleb Womble. Need one say more?
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    All this talk about the House of Lords jogged my memory.

    I completely forgot about the bizarre incident involving Lord James and "Foundation X" who supposedly wanted to invest tens of billions of pounds in the UK economy.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/nov/03/strange-case-lord-james-foundation-x

    I don't think anyone ever got to the bottom of what went on.

    Sounds like a standard thing that goes around - some group allegedly sitting on pile of gold that is either a substantial fraction of the all the gold ever mined or, in the crazy version, more gold than has ever been mined!

    It's like 419, but for investors....
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along those lines. Similar to the Banco Noroeste fraud where they lost several hundred million dollars after an executive thought he was going to invest in an airport. I think he was prosecuted as they couldn't accept someone would be that stupid.
    Read up on Prime Bank Guarantee scams. This always makes me giggle -

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-03/accused-fraudster-spent-his-money-on-other-frauds
    Amazing. Loses the proceeds of the scam to other con artists.
    You'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh....
    I found the annual profit of $7,000 over a decade once losses to other scams had been deducted particularly amusing. Well worth it.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    TKA Is that your contribution to the debate... no wonder everybody thinks you are thick.

    I'll tell you one thing Dick. When Osborne announced the tax credit cuts back in July I was on here highlighting what a disastrous move it was...both for those who would suffer the losses and for the Tories.

    I told you that families would lose hundreds and hundreds of pounds and all I heard from you and your Tory sycophants was that "welfare cuts" are popular with the public.

    Well who was right?...was it you Dick?

    The great comfort I have is, that despite all the rubbish I hear on here from 90% of the posts from individuals with not the slightest notion of how difficult it is out in the real world for hard working families, who assume every benefit recipient is a sponger and every part-timer is exploiting the tax credits system...the greatest comfort is that the cuts will be smaller, will be phased in and those who will suffer because of them will at least have a chance to prepare for them.

    Do you wonder why I am so passionate about tax credit cuts? It's because I have family members who would have been absolutely slaughtered by these cuts. Not lazy layabouts but people who were raised right and who work hard for their families. People not as lucky as you and I...people with disabled children for whom they had to give up their jobs to care for....and it's people like this who are the real victims of Osborne's madness.
    I don't think that anyone would be unsympathetic towards the plight of those such as you describe but policy cannot be made or shaped on individual case studies, however much the media and self seeking publicists might like to highlight them. Tax credits are a huge drag on the economy, an electoral bribe by GB which is now seriously out of control fiscally and of proven ineffectiveness in reducing poverty. I don't doubt that GO plays politics, he is after all an elected politician, but his aim of reducing tax credits to extinction asap is to my mind unquestionably correct and praiseworthy (I swear I can hear the demented screams of the green eyed tribal left as I type). I hope GO can find some way of softening the blow for those genuinely and adversely impacted. However, as Pulpstar has pointed out previously, tax credits have over time been hugely overgenerous to those of doubtful need, those wishing to play the minimise work/ maximise pay (including tax credits) game and subject to much manipulation by employers seeking to minimise their wages bill with taxpayers money.
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