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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ipsos MORI referendum REMAIN lead drops by an astonishing

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  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    JEO said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    If May backs the Out campaign, I think she would become favourite for the next Tory leader.
    Interesting either way what Boris does in that scenario. Team up and form an insurgent movement against the PM, or stick with Remain and claim the mantle of Cameronism?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538

    Someone with principles to start with and as that knocks Cameron out there isn't much point, in the context of this discussion, in pushing further.

    Anyway, I am glad you are on Mr. Jessop as I wanted to ask your advice. What do you know about outdoor clothing from a company called Regatta. I ask because there is a shop near me having a big sale and most of the Regatta stuff is being marked down by 50% (e.g. a pair of boots which was £90 is on offer for £45). I don't suppose I will ever do really serious walking again so I don't need top notch stuff, so do you think that the Regatta range will be suitable?

    I've got a couple of Regatta fleeces. They're cheaper than the more high-tech stuff I use on my long walks (not that I do any atm. :( ), but reasonable enough quality. Weight probably won't be as important for you as it is for me.

    I've no experience of the boots at all, and I wouldn't normally consider them for what I do (I'm a Scarpa man), but I've read some good reviews of them. But I always say with boots buy what is comfortable regardless of the price. It's pointless having a cheap pair of boots if they're uncomfortable. But you'll know that.

    Regatta are not seen as being 'stylish' (at least amongst my crowd), so they'll always be cheaper than brands that sell equivalent gear with a premium.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Mr. Freggles, Boris has already shot himself in the face over the EU with his ridiculous suggestion we should vote Out, get concessions, then stay In [or, consult the people, then ignore their decision].
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    MikeL said:

    Does anyone know what is happening re reversing the Lords amendment re 16 year olds voting in Local Elections?

    Committee Stage in Commons was yesterday and I see no mention of it being reversed. One more day of Committee still to come but I can't see any sign of it on list of amendments.

    If they aren't voted on in committee, would it be at second (third) reading?
  • "Well it's true! It's true! You're semi-EVEL. You're quasi-EVEL. You're the margarine of EVEL. You're the Diet Coke of EVEL. Just one calorie, not EVEL enough." :lol:
  • That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Freggles said:

    JEO said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    If May backs the Out campaign, I think she would become favourite for the next Tory leader.
    Interesting either way what Boris does in that scenario. Team up and form an insurgent movement against the PM, or stick with Remain and claim the mantle of Cameronism?
    The Cameroons would back Osborne, so Boris would be left between a rock and a hard place. I think if May backed Out everyone else would be squeezed out of a May versus Osborne contest. And this will likely be after a referendum campaign where most Conservatives voted for Leave.

    This is why the Cameroons badly need for the referendum campaign to be an honest, conciliatory affair. If it becomes dishonest and divisive, then conservative voters will hold it against the Cameroons as much Labour nationalists held it against Labour after the Scottish referendum. They really can't afford to be seen as sacking eurosceptic ministers, forcing collective responsibility, lying about three million jobs being lost, or calling eurosceptics reactionary or xenophobic.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,746

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    More Empie countries becaime Commonwealth under SuperMac than St Clem. Although if you're talking populations.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    This is the sort of thing that perplexes me. Surely the reason the Conservative Party has survived for so long is that the principles it holds have altered over time. Would Chamberlain or Churchill have supported Thatcher's policies, yet alone Andrew Bonar Law?

    Labour went through a similar process of change with New Labour. As the party is now well over 100 years old, it's developed dementia under Corbyn and is trapped permanently in its youth.

    Whereas the Conservative Party is a zombie party: it survives by renewing itself by killing other parties and drinking their policies.

    And the Lib Dems are spotty students (think Rick from the Young Ones).
  • That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    More Empie countries becaime Commonwealth under SuperMac than St Clem. Although if you're talking populations.....
    Bwahahahaha :)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    john_zims said:

    @rcs1000


    'What I meant was that the people of Germany are hardly going to stand for a constant flux - 500,000/year or more - of migrants from Syria and the Middle East. We have already seen a revolt in the CSU. It is no more popular for millions of migrants from the Middle East to arrive in Germany as it is in the UK. And if something is highly unpopular with the people then it will not continue.'


    What we may well see (and the start of it was last weekend) is the EU and Merkel in particular cutting a deal with Turkey to try and stem the flood. The deal will include a visa waiver for Turks and the mass immigration will continue but this time with Turks instead of Syrians,Afghans etc.

    Not needing a visa is not the same as having the right to work.

    I don't need a visa to visit the US, but I don't have the right to work there.
    So you never do, right?

    :)
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JEO said:
    Like the bloke who got 14 years a couple of months back you mean?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33763628
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,928
    taffys said:

    Just seen a tweet Nuttall may take a run at Oldham.

    Does this mean UKIP might fancy their chances?

    It would surely be seen as more of a profile booster.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    As usual, I agree with JEO 100% on this.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    Unsound.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    Unsound.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    edited October 2015
    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    JEO said:

    Freggles said:

    JEO said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    If May backs the Out campaign, I think she would become favourite for the next Tory leader.
    Interesting either way what Boris does in that scenario. Team up and form an insurgent movement against the PM, or stick with Remain and claim the mantle of Cameronism?
    The Cameroons would back Osborne, so Boris would be left between a rock and a hard place. I think if May backed Out everyone else would be squeezed out of a May versus Osborne contest. And this will likely be after a referendum campaign where most Conservatives voted for Leave.

    This is why the Cameroons badly need for the referendum campaign to be an honest, conciliatory affair. If it becomes dishonest and divisive, then conservative voters will hold it against the Cameroons as much Labour nationalists held it against Labour after the Scottish referendum. They really can't afford to be seen as sacking eurosceptic ministers, forcing collective responsibility, lying about three million jobs being lost, or calling eurosceptics reactionary or xenophobic.
    Couldn't agree more with that last paragraph. Hopefully there are enough undecideds that the arguments are made with evidence and honesty, with ministers campaigning on either side and resigning if they wish afterwards. To do otherwise would leave the country with nothing but divided parties on all sides, then who the hell are we all supposed to vote for in 2020..?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,686
    taffys said:

    ''I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous"

    Not great for tories though. PM going head to head with his own Home Secretary. Ugly.

    Might be her best chance of succeeding Cameron if Brexit wins.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,980
    Off now, but people who like Old Who may be interested to know that, at 8pm, on Horror (Freeview channel 70) there's the first appearance of a series favourite.

    Also, 9pm on BBC2 there's Last Kingdom. We'll see how that stacks up.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    taffys said:

    ''Actions, as always, speak louder than words and I am damned if I can see why I should shift my opinion of the man. ''

    To be honest, I'm struggling to think of a situation where more than a veto would be necessary.

    Mr Taffys, a veto may stop unpopular laws being imposed but cannot ensure popular ones are enacted.

    Edited.
    Let's all veto vetos
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    JEO said:

    This EVEL motion does not go anywhere near far enough. It is no more than English Veto for English Laws. We need English Votes for English Laws.

    On issues where the Scots have decided to devolve matters out of Westminster there should be zero votes by Scottish MPs on those matters.

    Entirely agree. This proposal does not deserve to be called English votes, when it is merely veto power.
    I agree. What does confuse me is why a Conservative government has been so pusillanimous on this matter. It feels to me like Cameron is trying to fob us off with the minimum he thinks he can get away with rather than actually tackling a serious constitutional issue.

    Now, my own view is that Cameron is a nasty PR spiv with not a principled bone in his body but people on here keep telling me he is proper Conservative who really does care about more than political power. Actions, as always, speak louder than words and I am damned if I can see why I should shift my opinion of the man.
    You are rather confused about your history. A proper Conservative is someone who takes a pragmatic and realistic view. Cameron is bang in the centre of the great tradition of Conservative Prime Ministers, doing the best that can be done in the circumstances. Of course it's a bit of a fudge - most things in the great unwritten British constitution, such as the Salisbury Convention, are.
    Drivel, Mr. Nabavi, pure drivel. Very unusual from you but drivel nonetheless.

    Edited extra bit: You edited and added to your post after I replied.
    You naughty naughty boy
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Someone with principles to start with and as that knocks Cameron out there isn't much point, in the context of this discussion, in pushing further.

    Anyway, I am glad you are on Mr. Jessop as I wanted to ask your advice. What do you know about outdoor clothing from a company called Regatta. I ask because there is a shop near me having a big sale and most of the Regatta stuff is being marked down by 50% (e.g. a pair of boots which was £90 is on offer for £45). I don't suppose I will ever do really serious walking again so I don't need top notch stuff, so do you think that the Regatta range will be suitable?

    I've got a couple of Regatta fleeces. They're cheaper than the more high-tech stuff I use on my long walks (not that I do any atm. :( ), but reasonable enough quality. Weight probably won't be as important for you as it is for me.

    I've no experience of the boots at all, and I wouldn't normally consider them for what I do (I'm a Scarpa man), but I've read some good reviews of them. But I always say with boots buy what is comfortable regardless of the price. It's pointless having a cheap pair of boots if they're uncomfortable. But you'll know that.

    Regatta are not seen as being 'stylish' (at least amongst my crowd), so they'll always be cheaper than brands that sell equivalent gear with a premium.
    Thanks for that, Mr. J.. I don't suppose I'll now ever do more than wander daytrips over the Downs and maybe the Devonshire moors (in good weather, mind). So, based on what you say, the Regatta kit will probably do for me.

    Thanks again.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    taffys said:

    ''I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous"

    Not great for tories though. PM going head to head with his own Home Secretary. Ugly.

    Wouldn't happen in the Labour party
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    You are, of course, utterly correct.

    Conservatives are vampires, not zombies. ;)
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Sandpit said:

    taffys said:

    ''Actions, as always, speak louder than words and I am damned if I can see why I should shift my opinion of the man. ''

    To be honest, I'm struggling to think of a situation where more than a veto would be necessary.

    Because there are two different scenarios where EV4EL may apply, and the current proposal only deals with one of those scenarios - that where there is a UK majority but not an English majority for a piece of legislation then the English PMs can 'Veto' it.

    The scenario not covered by the proposal is that where there is a clear English majority in favour of something but not a UK majority, such as allowing fox hunting. The 'Veto' there doesn't work because it's the final vote (of all UK PMs) where the legislation will fail to pass.

    The test would be could the Conservatives alone have got something through 2010-15, when they had an overall majority in England? A real English Parliament would also have allowed the Conservatives to propose legislation in England as the govt, even if in the UK they had been the opposition to a hypothetical rainbow coalition.
    Softly softly catchee monkey
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538

    Someone with principles to start with and as that knocks Cameron out there isn't much point, in the context of this discussion, in pushing further.

    Anyway, I am glad you are on Mr. Jessop as I wanted to ask your advice. What do you know about outdoor clothing from a company called Regatta. I ask because there is a shop near me having a big sale and most of the Regatta stuff is being marked down by 50% (e.g. a pair of boots which was £90 is on offer for £45). I don't suppose I will ever do really serious walking again so I don't need top notch stuff, so do you think that the Regatta range will be suitable?

    I've got a couple of Regatta fleeces. They're cheaper than the more high-tech stuff I use on my long walks (not that I do any atm. :( ), but reasonable enough quality. Weight probably won't be as important for you as it is for me.

    I've no experience of the boots at all, and I wouldn't normally consider them for what I do (I'm a Scarpa man), but I've read some good reviews of them. But I always say with boots buy what is comfortable regardless of the price. It's pointless having a cheap pair of boots if they're uncomfortable. But you'll know that.

    Regatta are not seen as being 'stylish' (at least amongst my crowd), so they'll always be cheaper than brands that sell equivalent gear with a premium.
    Thanks for that, Mr. J.. I don't suppose I'll now ever do more than wander daytrips over the Downs and maybe the Devonshire moors (in good weather, mind). So, based on what you say, the Regatta kit will probably do for me.

    Thanks again.
    I think they'd be fine for that.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Regatta are not seen as being 'stylish' (at least amongst my crowd), so they'll always be cheaper than brands that sell equivalent gear with a premium.''

    I'm lucky that cheap gear seems to suit me. Karrimor boots are pretty cheap but I think they're very comfortable as long as you get the one with waterproofing and Vibram sole.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,034
    Re.EVEL, I see Chris Bryant was going on about how no one, ever, could understand EVEL. Surely he forgets that at a basic level the English public will hear " English votes for English laws" and agree that sounds entirely fair?
  • JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    Thatcher was a classical liberal. She was not a conservative.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Mr. Freggles, Boris has already shot himself in the face over the EU with his ridiculous suggestion we should vote Out, get concessions, then stay In [or, consult the people, then ignore their decision].

    Boris looks well on the way to being a flush that's about to be busted
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    As usual, I agree with JEO 100% on this.
    Thatcher was a Radical, not a Conservative.

    The strength of the Conservative Party is its ability to change.
  • That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    Unsound.
    Sorry, what does that mean, unsound??
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    This is the sort of thing that perplexes me. Surely the reason the Conservative Party has survived for so long is that the principles it holds have altered over time. Would Chamberlain or Churchill have supported Thatcher's policies, yet alone Andrew Bonar Law?

    Labour went through a similar process of change with New Labour. As the party is now well over 100 years old, it's developed dementia under Corbyn and is trapped permanently in its youth.

    Whereas the Conservative Party is a zombie party: it survives by renewing itself by killing other parties and drinking their policies.

    And the Lib Dems are spotty students (think Rick from the Young Ones).
    "trapped permanently in its youth" - bucket of water quick!
  • Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2015

    Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
    Wraiths and Wights are completely different.

    After all, the BBC believes in the Wraithan principles, so Conservatives cannot possibly be Wraiths
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,346
    FT article on Merkel and her migration policy - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/422f277a-765d-11e5-a95a-27d368e1ddf7.html#axzz3pJo65SCz

    The comments are overwhelmingly hostile.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    The most worrying part of that article for me is this:

    "Other Tories dismiss their party’s stated aim of bringing immigration down to tens of thousands a year as silly and unachievable, but May believes in it."

    If that's true, I'm in the wrong party.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative.

    Nah, that was Attlee!

    Unsound.
    Sorry, what does that mean, unsound??
    Soundly right-wing, or not.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited October 2015

    Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
    The Wraith Coupe is a decent motor ....

    Edit .... The Phantom Coupe is better .... :smile:

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    The most worrying part of that article for me is this:

    "Other Tories dismiss their party’s stated aim of bringing immigration down to tens of thousands a year as silly and unachievable, but May believes in it."

    If that's true, I'm in the wrong party.
    The vast majority of the party voters and activists agree with you. The MPs are just our representatives. Make sure you take part in local hustings and the next leadership election if you disagree with them.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    Thatcher was a classical liberal. She was not a conservative.
    A classical liberal would not have given government discounts to council houses but sold them off at market cost. She did not because she had fundamentally conservative aims. She wished to turn the country into a property-owned democracy of small 'c' conservative voters.

    And she achieved it. Unfortunately, that movement now appears to be in reverse.
  • I never believed the 69-31 and, for what it's worth, I don't even believe the 57-43 either. I suspect it's a lot closer and that people like me who are pro-EU are very probably going to get a bloody nose (or completely beaten up, frankly).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    JEO said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    The most worrying part of that article for me is this:

    "Other Tories dismiss their party’s stated aim of bringing immigration down to tens of thousands a year as silly and unachievable, but May believes in it."

    If that's true, I'm in the wrong party.
    The vast majority of the party voters and activists agree with you. The MPs are just our representatives. Make sure you take part in local hustings and the next leadership election if you disagree with them.
    Thanks. I'm going to a victory dinner on Sat 7th Nov and might do a bit of canvassing there on this.

    I might also write to my MP.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    This is the sort of thing that perplexes me. Surely the reason the Conservative Party has survived for so long is that the principles it holds have altered over time. Would Chamberlain or Churchill have supported Thatcher's policies, yet alone Andrew Bonar Law?

    Labour went through a similar process of change with New Labour. As the party is now well over 100 years old, it's developed dementia under Corbyn and is trapped permanently in its youth.

    Whereas the Conservative Party is a zombie party: it survives by renewing itself by killing other parties and drinking their policies.

    And the Lib Dems are spotty students (think Rick from the Young Ones).
    So if the alternative to the Conservative party was a Stalinist one, you think the Conservatives should adopt Stalinist policies to stay in power?

    I am very content to adapt to change and listen to arguments made by others and adopt them as necessary. The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't see that as the be-all and end-all. My ultimate aim is the achievement and maintenance of a conservative society of individual ownership, freedom and personal responsibility. Some times you do that by co-opting others, sometimes you do it by tipping over the apple cart. Neither are good things of themselves, but merely means to an end.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.
    I might also but would only be doing it to put some grit in the oyster.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited October 2015
    I'd vote May, rather than Osborne. He's just not appealing. I consider myself on the Cameron/Gove side of the Party.
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.
    I might also but would only be doing it to put some grit in the oyster.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited October 2015

    Someone with principles to start with and as that knocks Cameron out there isn't much point, in the context of this discussion, in pushing further.

    Anyway, I am glad you are on Mr. Jessop as I wanted to ask your advice. What do you know about outdoor clothing from a company called Regatta. I ask because there is a shop near me having a big sale and most of the Regatta stuff is being marked down by 50% (e.g. a pair of boots which was £90 is on offer for £45). I don't suppose I will ever do really serious walking again so I don't need top notch stuff, so do you think that the Regatta range will be suitable?

    I've got a couple of Regatta fleeces. They're cheaper than the more high-tech stuff I use on my long walks (not that I do any atm. :( ), but reasonable enough quality. Weight probably won't be as important for you as it is for me.

    I've no experience of the boots at all, and I wouldn't normally consider them for what I do (I'm a Scarpa man), but I've read some good reviews of them. But I always say with boots buy what is comfortable regardless of the price. It's pointless having a cheap pair of boots if they're uncomfortable. But you'll know that.

    Regatta are not seen as being 'stylish' (at least amongst my crowd), so they'll always be cheaper than brands that sell equivalent gear with a premium.
    Thanks for that, Mr. J.. I don't suppose I'll now ever do more than wander daytrips over the Downs and maybe the Devonshire moors (in good weather, mind). So, based on what you say, the Regatta kit will probably do for me.

    Thanks again.
    If you are looking for a waterproof jacket and don't mind cam pattern these are outstanding quality for the price.

    http://forcesuniformandkit.com/collections/all-army-surplus-jackets-and-coats/products/french-army-surplus-cce-camo-gore-tex-jacket

    http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0220/2076/products/french_camo_goretex_jacket_ab_front_c_1024x1024.jpg?v=1443440257
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.
    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    This is the sort of thing that perplexes me. Surely the reason the Conservative Party has survived for so long is that the principles it holds have altered over time. Would Chamberlain or Churchill have supported Thatcher's policies, yet alone Andrew Bonar Law?

    Labour went through a similar process of change with New Labour. As the party is now well over 100 years old, it's developed dementia under Corbyn and is trapped permanently in its youth.

    Whereas the Conservative Party is a zombie party: it survives by renewing itself by killing other parties and drinking their policies.

    And the Lib Dems are spotty students (think Rick from the Young Ones).
    So if the alternative to the Conservative party was a Stalinist one, you think the Conservatives should adopt Stalinist policies to stay in power?

    I am very content to adapt to change and listen to arguments made by others and adopt them as necessary. The difference between you and I seems to be that I don't see that as the be-all and end-all. My ultimate aim is the achievement and maintenance of a conservative society of individual ownership, freedom and personal responsibility. Some times you do that by co-opting others, sometimes you do it by tipping over the apple cart. Neither are good things of themselves, but merely means to an end.
    No, moving to a Stalinist position in one go would be too much. But look at how much of what the left were asking for in the 1920s were asking for has been implemented, and is now firmly supported by the Conservative Party.

    Yet alone the Monster Raving Loony Party's manifestos ...

    Society changes, and the Conservatives have changed with it, many times over.

    And BTW, I'm not a Conservative. ;)
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    The most worrying part of that article for me is this:

    "Other Tories dismiss their party’s stated aim of bringing immigration down to tens of thousands a year as silly and unachievable, but May believes in it."

    If that's true, I'm in the wrong party.
    This is not an issue exclusive to the Tories. You only have to look at Corbyn's victory to realise Labour MPs are out of touch with their membership too. Quite disappointing, no wonder people are so disinterested with politics.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    WTF is a "trans exclusionary"...
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2015

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    The sort of person who would have objected to William Wilberforce as being too white and privileged to speak about slavery.
  • I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    WTF is a "trans exclusionary"...

    You will regret looking it up. Honestly, sometimes ignorance can can be bliss.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are. ''

    'Twas ever thus. I remember universities appointing Winston Silcott Vice Chancellor in the 1980s.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    WTF is a "trans exclusionary"...

    Radical feminism - usual bollox imho.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049

    I'd vote May, rather than Osborne. He's just not appealing. I consider myself on the Cameron/Gove side of the Party.

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.
    I might also but would only be doing it to put some grit in the oyster.
    I just don't think he has that loveability factor. Even EdM wasn't beyond laughing at himself. Does GO have a sense of humour?

    Sajid.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
    Wraiths and Wights are completely different.

    After all, the BBC believes in the Wraithan principles, so Conservatives cannot possibly be Wraiths
    Ghouls!
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Aanorak.. you were right .. another group of nutters..
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    WTF is a "trans exclusionary"...

    It's a sure fire indicator that who ever utters it is a complete tool, with a trust fund and far too much time on their hands.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2015
    Radical feminism - usual bollox imho.

    The women's movement is back pedalling like hell. As marriage rates plummet and more and more women face a life alone (28% of over 40s according to the Mail today), those gears are getting slammed into reverse.

    See the Spectator cover, the end of feminism (paraphrase 'stop this for f8cks sake')

    It turns out that, astonishingly, many men don;t like feminists.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I've heard a few non political intv with Ozzie and he comes across as a really nice guy, but he doesn't have the charisma for the job.

    Javid is just terrible - I've no idea why he gets bigged up bar his background. Everytime time I've seen him, he comes across very poorly and a bit weird.
    TOPPING said:

    I'd vote May, rather than Osborne. He's just not appealing. I consider myself on the Cameron/Gove side of the Party.

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    And yet she was playing the identity politics game with the police today.

    Sadly, I think her politics on EU and the immigration are opportunist. I wouldn't necessarily mind that, provided she did something about it.

    I only trust her marginally more than Boris. Mainly because she works hard and isn't afraid to go against advice.
    I can't see it either, but, like death and taxes, a new Cons leader is inevitable and it has to be someone. It is currently a known unknown, well this gives us 329 to choose from.

    Is there an unknown unknown someone extraordinary gets parachuted as MP ok it's possible. Parachuted in then straight to leader & thence PM? Hmm.

    There's no Dan Jarvis-type a raving sensible island in an otherwise bonkers sea; so that, sadly, leaves the existing front-runners.

    No to Boris who will fail, just as Lab did at the GE, because sensible people will sober up and reject the very idea; no to Gove, too untelegenic (sad but true); no to May (IMO, I may be biased) because she will be shot as the nasty messenger; no to Hammond as a boring white guy although not crazy idea; one of the front bench wimmin? - Amber could do it, Justine no - but quite far out.

    Which leaves Sajid or Jeremy. Jeremy is getting every kind of stick about junior doctors so may prove toxic.

    Which leaves Sajid.

    Suck that OEs - now it's muslim immigrant stock that occupies the top offices of state.
    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.
    I might also but would only be doing it to put some grit in the oyster.
    I just don't think he has that loveability factor. Even EdM wasn't beyond laughing at himself. Does GO have a sense of humour?

    Sajid.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656


    No, moving to a Stalinist position in one go would be too much. But look at how much of what the left were asking for in the 1920s were asking for has been implemented, and is now firmly supported by the Conservative Party.

    Yet alone the Monster Raving Loony Party's manifestos ...

    Society changes, and the Conservatives have changed with it, many times over.

    And BTW, I'm not a Conservative. ;)

    I'm happy for the Conservatives to adopt policies of the other parties as long as they are consistent with conservative principles. The left on the 1920s was economically left wing but socially conservative, so it is reasonable we have adopted many of their aims on social matters. Of course, limiting immigration was generally a desire of the left wing working class back then. Immigration controls historically went hand in hand with the working class getting a vote.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    JEO said:


    No, moving to a Stalinist position in one go would be too much. But look at how much of what the left were asking for in the 1920s were asking for has been implemented, and is now firmly supported by the Conservative Party.

    Yet alone the Monster Raving Loony Party's manifestos ...

    Society changes, and the Conservatives have changed with it, many times over.

    And BTW, I'm not a Conservative. ;)

    I'm happy for the Conservatives to adopt policies of the other parties as long as they are consistent with conservative principles. The left on the 1920s was economically left wing but socially conservative, so it is reasonable we have adopted many of their aims on social matters. Of course, limiting immigration was generally a desire of the left wing working class back then. Immigration controls historically went hand in hand with the working class getting a vote.
    My point is that those "conservative principles" have altered over time as well.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    taffys said:

    Radical feminism - usual bollox imho.

    The women's movement is back pedalling like hell. As marriage rates plummet and more and more women face a life alone (28% of over 40s according to the Mail today), those gears are getting slammed into reverse.

    It turns out that, astonishingly, many men don;t like feminists.

    Nothing wrong with a woman seeking equality. Why should they be treated differently?

    But this crap about cis and trans and queer and questionning and the virtue signalling and the witchnon-gendered-magic-practioner-hunts. Just go away and lock yourself in an airtight room. Waste your remaining breath wailing about how vindicated you feel about being persecuted. And that goes for the ultra-PC, emasculated, wet-fart male fellow-travellers too.

    First exhibit for the prosection: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33278165/we-know-what-lgbt-means-but-heres-what-lgbtqqiaap-stands-for

    Aaaand breathe....
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,746
    taffys said:

    ''I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are. ''

    'Twas ever thus. I remember universities appointing Winston Silcott Vice Chancellor in the 1980s.

    Mnay of us were students once. Do we all look with unequivocal satisfaction at our attitudes in those days?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    *claps*
    Anorak said:

    taffys said:

    Radical feminism - usual bollox imho.

    The women's movement is back pedalling like hell. As marriage rates plummet and more and more women face a life alone (28% of over 40s according to the Mail today), those gears are getting slammed into reverse.

    It turns out that, astonishingly, many men don;t like feminists.

    Nothing wrong with a woman seeking equality. Why should they be treated differently?

    But this crap about cis and trans and queer and questionning and the virtue signalling and the witchnon-gendered-magic-practioner-hunts. Just go away and lock yourself in an airtight room. Waste your remaining breath wailing about how vindicated you feel about being persecuted. And that goes for the ultra-PC, emasculated, wet-fart male fellow-travellers too.

    First exhibit for the prosection: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33278165/we-know-what-lgbt-means-but-heres-what-lgbtqqiaap-stands-for

    Aaaand breathe....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,003
    edited October 2015

    JEO said:

    That Harold Macmillan chap - he dismantled the Empire, so he certainly wasn't a proper Conservative. That R A Butler fellow must have been some kind of pinko, what with the 1944 Education Act and all that. Ted Heath was of course beyond the pale. Willie Whitelaw? Nah, far too wet. William Hague? No, he's a Cameroon.

    Maggie, do I hear? What, the minister who presided over the closure of so many grammar schools?

    Margaret Thatcher was certainly much more consistently conservative than David Cameron. I disagree with HurstLlama. David Cameron I think is instinctively conservative, but more in the respect that he would never want to upset the apple cart, rather than in pushing for conservative principles to be upheld.
    This is the sort of thing that perplexes me. Surely the reason the Conservative Party has survived for so long is that the principles it holds have altered over time. Would Chamberlain or Churchill have supported Thatcher's policies, yet alone Andrew Bonar Law?

    Labour went through a similar process of change with New Labour. As the party is now well over 100 years old, it's developed dementia under Corbyn and is trapped permanently in its youth.

    Whereas the Conservative Party is a zombie party: it survives by renewing itself by killing other parties and drinking their policies.

    And the Lib Dems are spotty students (think Rick from the Young Ones).
    Rick from the Young Ones became Tony Blair....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
    O'Reillyitis is clearly infectious ....

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
    The Wraith Coupe is a decent motor ....

    Edit .... The Phantom Coupe is better .... :smile:

    I was more of a Silver Ghost man, myself
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    I don't know why the minister of state for universities doesn't make a statement to all university unions and the NUS publicly rebuking all this nonsense and imploring them to defend the right of free speech.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    I find this sentence hidden away in the depths of the article particularly amusing:
    It confirmed agreements to refrain from cyber-espionage and to liberalise visa regimes and called for the 'swift' launch of a feasibility study for a China/EU Free Trade Agreement...
    Outside of the EU we would likely be able to sign an FTA with China. Remaining in the EU we will not sign an FTA so long as countries such as Italy and France continue with their policy of protectionism and isolationism.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3283556/The-Queen-Prince-Philip-bid-farewell-Chinese-President-Lady.html
  • JackW said:

    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
    O'Reillyitis is clearly infectious ....

    I ended up having to doss down in Hitchin station after falling asleep on the last train after a firm's xmas party.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,755
    MP_SE said:

    MP_SE said:

    Danny565 said:

    Possible game-changer for the EU Referendum: Theresa May could back the "Out" campaign

    http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/is-theresa-may-gearing-up-to-lead-the-eu-no-campaign/

    I think the conclusion towards the end is sound: she is the kind of intelligent, credible, reassuring figure who could make Brexit seem a lot less "dangerous".

    Would explain why she will not back down on getting immigration down to the tens of thousands. When the time comes, May can argue that the only way to get control of our borders is to leave the EU.
    The most worrying part of that article for me is this:

    "Other Tories dismiss their party’s stated aim of bringing immigration down to tens of thousands a year as silly and unachievable, but May believes in it."

    If that's true, I'm in the wrong party.
    This is not an issue exclusive to the Tories. You only have to look at Corbyn's victory to realise Labour MPs are out of touch with their membership too. Quite disappointing, no wonder people are so disinterested with politics.
    It's a reflection of the sort of people who become MPs - they increasingly move in a common public policy circle and are metropolitan, urban and affluently middle-class.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    @Plato - I also prefer May to Ozzie but he comes across more human in this interview with Moore about the book on Maggie.... It's a long video but worth watching imo.
    http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/modevents/item/margaret-thatcher-everything-she-wants-charles-moore-in-conversation-with-george-osborne
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Will have a looksee - thnx
    perdix said:

    @Plato - I also prefer May to Ozzie but he comes across more human in this interview with Moore about the book on Maggie.... It's a long video but worth watching imo.
    http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/modevents/item/margaret-thatcher-everything-she-wants-charles-moore-in-conversation-with-george-osborne

  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited October 2015

    If it came down to a membership vote between Osborne and May, I would vote May.

    For what I would call "mainstream" Conservatives - ie people who aren't excessively ideological and don't get themselves wound up into a frenzy over any issues - but just want the country run sensibly and efficiently with sound economic policies - and most importantly believe it is imperative to win the GE - I think the answer is not Osborne and probably not Johnson.

    May looks like the safety first candidate but maybe someone else might emerge.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538

    JackW said:

    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
    O'Reillyitis is clearly infectious ....

    I ended up having to doss down in Hitchin station after falling asleep on the last train after a firm's xmas party.
    A friend (and notorious non-drinking) friend of mine ended up in carriage sidings near Peterborough station a few years back after falling asleep. He ended up having to call the police as he had no way of opening the doors, yet alone getting back to the station.

    It was treated as a fairly serious event, rather to the embarrassment of my friend.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Charles said:

    JackW said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Jessop, that is plain wrong.

    Vampires are the allegorical beast of myth you want, not zombies. The mindless shambling zombies are nothing like the picture you paint (a lich could perhaps be an exception, of course, but liches and zombies are not the same thing).

    Surely a wight not a lich?
    Wraith!
    The Wraith Coupe is a decent motor ....

    Edit .... The Phantom Coupe is better .... :smile:

    I was more of a Silver Ghost man, myself
    Sadly I've never had the pleasure.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687
    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Who would have thought -

    Survey criticising Bradford's quality of life is rubbished as Saltaire reaches final of England's Greatest Place contest

    COMMUNITY leaders last night rounded on a survey which claimed Bradford is the worst place to live in the UK.

    http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/13887191.Survey_criticising_Bradford_s_quality_of_life_is_rubbished_as_Saltaire_reaches_final_of_England_s_Greatest_Place_contest/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    JackW said:

    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
    O'Reillyitis is clearly infectious ....

    I ended up having to doss down in Hitchin station after falling asleep on the last train after a firm's xmas party.
    A friend (and notorious non-drinking) friend of mine ended up in carriage sidings near Peterborough station a few years back after falling asleep. He ended up having to call the police as he had no way of opening the doors, yet alone getting back to the station.

    It was treated as a fairly serious event, rather to the embarrassment of my friend.
    Surely the "train manager" (ugh) is supposed to check the train is empty before leaving??
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,928
    rcs1000 said:

    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...

    I don't know what's wrong with 'self-righteous'.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225

    A friend (and notorious non-drinking) friend of mine ended up in carriage sidings near Peterborough station a few years back after falling asleep. He ended up having to call the police as he had no way of opening the doors, yet alone getting back to the station.

    It was treated as a fairly serious event, rather to the embarrassment of my friend.

    There are some track bashers who would have been delighted to tick of the siding!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    rcs1000 said:

    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...

    Has "PB Tory/Tories" made the cut?
    Unspoofable has fallen out of fashion these days...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    I've visited several seaside towns unintentionally... Bognor, St Leonards - never got as far as Southampton but that was pure luck :smile:

    I continue to be appalled at how small minded students are.

    Anorak said:

    From the BBC's parliament live blog:

    Cardiff University's Women's Officer has launched a petition to ban Germaine Greer from speaking at the university in November.

    Rachel Melhuish, the Women's Officer at Cardiff University Student's Union launched the petition because she believes the speaker is "trans-exclusionary"


    Someone needs a history lesson. Honestly, f*cking students, eh.

    When I was an undergrad, back in the mid-90s, I just used my spare Wednesday afternoons to explore London's Tube and Rail network - only out to Travelcard Zone 4 back in those days :lol:
    When I was a student in London in the early 1990s, I often explored London's Tube and Rail network by accident, by falling asleep on the train. Something I believe has happened to one of PB's finest as well. ;)

    Although sometimes it was just stupidity: my first ever visit to Cambridge was when I got on a non-stopper from Kings X instead of a stopper. I was visiting my GF, and she was not happy when I turned up a few hours late ...
    O'Reillyitis is clearly infectious ....

    I ended up having to doss down in Hitchin station after falling asleep on the last train after a firm's xmas party.
    Whilst I'm sure Hitchen Station has many delights, you clearly had only a minor dose of "Hersham Clap" - the full effects of which deliver the patient to the more exotic climes of the south coast Riviera.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687

    rcs1000 said:

    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...

    I don't know what's wrong with 'self-righteous'.
    Agreed 100%.

    "Smug and self-righteous" is even better.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,538
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...

    Has "PB Tory/Tories" made the cut?
    Unspoofable has fallen out of fashion these days...
    I think you've reached peak virtue signalling of your scripting skills ;)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,225
    rcs1000 said:

    Just so everyone knows, I've written a little Python script that automatically "counts" every time a poster uses the phrases "virtue signalling" or "peak [x]".

    Right now, I'm thinking everyone should be allowed to use these phrases once... a year or so. Any more, and there will be an automatic (temporary) ban.

    I've not actually put this live yet, but I'm sorely tempted...

    Can you not do some sort of word cloud to see what gets said most often on here?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,687
    MP_SE said:

    I find this sentence hidden away in the depths of the article particularly amusing:

    It confirmed agreements to refrain from cyber-espionage and to liberalise visa regimes and called for the 'swift' launch of a feasibility study for a China/EU Free Trade Agreement...
    Outside of the EU we would likely be able to sign an FTA with China. Remaining in the EU we will not sign an FTA so long as countries such as Italy and France continue with their policy of protectionism and isolationism.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3283556/The-Queen-Prince-Philip-bid-farewell-Chinese-President-Lady.html

    I wish this were true. Unfortunately, China has shown no evidence of wishing to free up its services or financial industries. Take Switzerland's free trade agreement with China, that basically excludes banking, finance, and service industries. But it does cut the tariff on Swiss watches exported to China from 11.5% to 5% over the next ten years.
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