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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Next year’s London Mayoral election next will be the big t

SystemSystem Posts: 12,220
edited October 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Next year’s London Mayoral election next will be the big test for the Corbyn leadership.

“Sadiq. Wow” said the text message that came in as I was walking down an Italian hillside. It alerted me to the fact that Sadiq Khan had won the Labour London Mayoral selection by a decisive margin.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Good piece but "defeat in Labours strongest region?"

    That tends to infer what most have been saying that Labour is an "Islington based party" or more interested in the south? Surely not?

    The problem Corby really has is the fact that the country expects a political party to be united. It does not matter they don't actually agree with what that party stands for but too get bonus points then they have to be seen as a coherent political entity.


    Which I suppose brings me back to Labour... Corby and despair.... Labour are screwed really.


    Oh and 1st
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    edited October 2015
    Good morning from a foggy Amsterdam airport!

    Anyone but Sadiq Khan please. His nasty racially divisive identity politics leads to what happened in Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, it needs driving out of British politics for good and never allowed to return.

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    On the comment about Zac being the Old Etonian, made as a thinly veiled insult - anyone who has travelled the world will know that those in almost any country people have the ambition to be able to send their children to British public schools, and often make massive personal sacrifice to be able to do so. The casual denigration by most of the British Left, of what are universally acknowledged as the best schools in the world completely staggers me.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    Sandpit said:

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    I'd have thought that a big chunk of people who would be up for voting for such a candidate don't live in Greater London. But it would certainly liven up the campaign if there was a candidate that said the unsayable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    I'd have thought that a big chunk of people who would be up for voting for such a candidate don't live in Greater London. But it would certainly liven up the campaign if there was a candidate that said the unsayable.
    Thinking a bit more, it would need to be someone already well known in London for being opinionated, maybe a Nick Ferrari or A Clarkson-Esque character could be London's Trump..?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,842
    If Khan wants to make it personal, Goldsmith has an easy answer: "I want to talk about the future of eight million Londoners, not the background of one of them".

    It would in any case be a return to comfort-zone politics and a complete failure to learn at least four lessons already harshly taught to Labour. In 2008, Boris was posh; Labour lost. In 2010 Cameron was posh; Labour lost. In 2012, Boris was posh; Labour lost. In 2015, Cameron was posh; Labour lost. The public doesn't give a stuff about poshness; it cares about who will govern and represent best.

    Just because Labour is obsessed with identity politics, it doesn't mean that everyone else is. It's the same mistake the Tories made re Europe in the 1990s/early 2000s.
  • Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited October 2015
    Khan has said and done all the right things since he was chosen, but his achilles heel - and the thing that will lose him the contest - is something Don does not mention at all: Khan's previously stated views on quotas. They will dominate the contest. After all, Lynton Crosby knows what an electoral gift horse looks like and with plenty of UKIP transfers to hoover up and as a green-friendly candidate Goldsmith will win quite comfortably.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    What do you mean by "favouring the big developers"?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,994
    Sandpit said:

    Anyone but Sadiq Khan please. His nasty racially divisive identity politics leads to what happened in Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, it needs driving out of British politics for good and never allowed to return.

    Seconded. A truly appalling candidate.

  • If Khan wants to make it personal, Goldsmith has an easy answer: "I want to talk about the future of eight million Londoners, not the background of one of them".

    It would in any case be a return to comfort-zone politics and a complete failure to learn at least four lessons already harshly taught to Labour. In 2008, Boris was posh; Labour lost. In 2010 Cameron was posh; Labour lost. In 2012, Boris was posh; Labour lost. In 2015, Cameron was posh; Labour lost. The public doesn't give a stuff about poshness; it cares about who will govern and represent best.

    Just because Labour is obsessed with identity politics, it doesn't mean that everyone else is. It's the same mistake the Tories made re Europe in the 1990s/early 2000s.

    Ken lost in 2008 and 2012 for the same reasons Khan will lose. He was on the wrong side of a contest that focused on identity. Ken's triangulation made him electoral poison for many London voters. Khan's views on quotas will do the same. Labour is the gift that keeps on giving because its members are utterly incapable of looking beyond their comfort zone.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,842

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Only big developers can produce the volume of building that is needed..and at a reasonable cost..all to do with volume of scale and purchasing power..plus big project experience
  • Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    If building companies are contracted to build social housing then that is what they will build.. they cannot just stick some luxury houses in the middle of it all..and they would not be able to sell them anyway....
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,842

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Well then that's surely an opportunity for councils and the mayor to put together a meaningful development plan. But Kevin's original point painted big developers as bad, period, as if they're the problem rather than part of the solution. In a situation where there's a clear housing shortage, I'd have thought that at best misguided.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Good morning, everyone.

    I share the disgust at Khan's proposed ethnic quotas. People should be judged by the content of their character, not the colour of their skin.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited October 2015
    I often read Mr Brind's articles with a sense of disbelief. This one ignore's Sadiq links to some horrible people. Same as Corbyn and McDonnell. But according to Mr Brind, Sadiq seems to be the second coming.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    If Londoners vote for the despicable Khan and his ethnic quotas then they will get the Mayor they fully deserve.. and the social unrest that will follow that policy..Mrs Blair and her buddies must be rubbing their hands..
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    It would appear that no PB lefties oppose Khans ethnic quota policy..If it had been introduced by a Tory candidate then they would all have been out there screaming..
  • We have on PB now two regular Labour England writers. What we still lack are regular contributions in the comments from a SLAB activist. But maybe that just indicates the state of SLAB and how they are likely to suffer more losses in Scotland next year.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    I keep dreaming that I'm voting 1) Green; 2) Zac.

    I don't even live in London D: !
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?
  • tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    I'd have thought that a big chunk of people who would be up for voting for such a candidate don't live in Greater London. But it would certainly liven up the campaign if there was a candidate that said the unsayable.
    Particularly if the candidate was also in favour of repealing our strict gun laws, and a property-based franchise. He (it would be a he, I reckon) would have landslide support on this board, n'est-ce pas, m'sieur?

    Fortunately the Peebie Right is too idle even to have a whip-round to pay the deposit of such a character.l
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    Sugar made his own money, whereas Trump's current wealth is inheritance+ trackers.

    I'm not denying he has an ego (Don't all billionaires !), but I don't think he's so bothered about politics to run as Mayor of London.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Well said.
    Sandpit said:

    On the comment about Zac being the Old Etonian, made as a thinly veiled insult - anyone who has travelled the world will know that those in almost any country people have the ambition to be able to send their children to British public schools, and often make massive personal sacrifice to be able to do so. The casual denigration by most of the British Left, of what are universally acknowledged as the best schools in the world completely staggers me.

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That sounds even worse than dreaming about discovering yourself naked at work. :wink:
    Pulpstar said:

    I keep dreaming that I'm voting 1) Green; 2) Zac.

    I don't even live in London D: !

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Sugar couldn't afford the drop in his taxes......but he would make a decent job of being Mayor..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Miss Plato, maybe adult film stars have nightmares about discovering themselves fully clothed at work :p

    [Bit like Ride to Hell Retribution, a videogame which had 'sex' scenes during which everyone kept their clothes on...]
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Plato.. I was once naked at work.. during the 68 Paris riots..only way we were allowed into a Chateau to interview the student leaders..who were all naked..in the garden..even the PA,brave girl,peeled off
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That wasn't with Alan Whicker was it? :wink: I can imagine him being the only clothed one there

    Plato.. I was once naked at work.. during the 68 Paris riots..only way we were allowed into a Chateau to interview the student leaders..who were all naked..in the garden

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Mayoral election is Labour's to lose. But they are capable of losing it.

    Neither Sadiq Khan nor Zac Goldsmith looks like an amazing candidate to me, though both are capable enough. Sadiq Khan is likely to have both a stronger attraction factor than Zac Goldsmith and a stronger repulsion factor than the Conservative. My expectation is that he will also have the better electoral machine, especially if he can get those Corbynistas doing more than just tweeting. How vigorously will Boris Johnson help his old school chum?

    Will Jeremy Corbyn himself affect the race (positively or negatively)? Maybe. The unpopularity of government didn't stop Boris Johnson being re-elected in 2012 and the popularity of Tony Blair didn't stop Ken Livingstone getting elected in 2000 ahead of the official Labour candidate, but both had far bigger profiles at those dates than either of those two do now. Politics has been mildly hysterical for the last month or so. Surely it will calm down a bit in the coming months. Ultimately I expect the London public to elect their preferred mayor rather than pass judgement on the Labour leader in this election.

    Taken as a whole (ignoring other candidates), I would currently price it at 4/7 Khan, 7/4 Goldsmith.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    No.. Alan would never get his kit off..except for his daily swim..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Mr. Antifrank, if Boris aspires to the Conservative leadership, then proving he's a campaigning assert by getting the Conservative candidate the job in London is in his own interest. If he can't deliver his own former position to a colleague, that bodes ill.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055

    Sugar couldn't afford the drop in his taxes......but he would make a decent job of being Mayor..

    Like Trump Sugar us rich enough to say he would not take the salary
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    Sugar made his own money, whereas Trump's current wealth is inheritance+ trackers.

    I'm not denying he has an ego (Don't all billionaires !), but I don't think he's so bothered about politics to run as Mayor of London.
    Sugar led the Standard this week with his attacks on Khan and Corbyn and has just completed his latest property venture and could be looking for a new project and if he did run he would have a strong chance of winning
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Antifrank, if Boris aspires to the Conservative leadership, then proving he's a campaigning assert by getting the Conservative candidate the job in London is in his own interest. If he can't deliver his own former position to a colleague, that bodes ill.

    Or it suggests that he's a uniquely strong election winner. I wonder which way he'll see it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Mr. Antifrank, Boris is guaranteed Boris' support in a leadership election. It's the other 330 or so Conservative MPs he needs on-side.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    Max Mosley was one of the biggest donors to Tom Watson's Deputy Leadership campaign according to the Times
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    antifrank said:

    The Mayoral election is Labour's to lose. But they are capable of losing it.

    Neither Sadiq Khan nor Zac Goldsmith looks like an amazing candidate to me, though both are capable enough. Sadiq Khan is likely to have both a stronger attraction factor than Zac Goldsmith and a stronger repulsion factor than the Conservative. My expectation is that he will also have the better electoral machine, especially if he can get those Corbynistas doing more than just tweeting. How vigorously will Boris Johnson help his old school chum?

    Will Jeremy Corbyn himself affect the race (positively or negatively)? Maybe. The unpopularity of government didn't stop Boris Johnson being re-elected in 2012 and the popularity of Tony Blair didn't stop Ken Livingstone getting elected in 2000 ahead of the official Labour candidate, but both had far bigger profiles at those dates than either of those two do now. Politics has been mildly hysterical for the last month or so. Surely it will calm down a bit in the coming months. Ultimately I expect the London public to elect their preferred mayor rather than pass judgement on the Labour leader in this election.

    Taken as a whole (ignoring other candidates), I would currently price it at 4/7 Khan, 7/4 Goldsmith.

    Khan will be a divisive figure, and a lot depends on turnout across different demographics. Zac is a Trustifarian on an extended gap year. I hope they both lose.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    It sounds like Labour want to use class warfare against Goldsmith. Is this the new politics?

    I actually think Khan is a very capable politician. I just worry about him in power. It's a doubling down on Labour's hostility to white people. But this time it's not just denigrating them with rhetoric but making laws against them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    London should be a shoo in for labour. Khan has flaws but he doesn't seem to have as many passionately driven opponents, so should be fine.

    Regarding cyber bullying, Corbyn really mentioned it? I'm surprised he bothered. He knows he doesn't have to direct them on his side, so he's free to condemn knowing it won't stop it, like all the best online attack squads it can be useful but is distant enough that he's not responsible for it, and can condemn it knowing it won't stop as a result, so he can get what benefit there is hole maintaining a moral high ground. It's how it works for everyone in that position.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,684
    Sandpit said:

    an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    Have you considered standing yourself? I'd vote for that manifesto.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,684
    HYUFD said:

    Max Mosley was one of the biggest donors to Tom Watson's Deputy Leadership campaign according to the Times

    That'll be because they share an utter hatred of Mr Murdoch.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    I would have thought that Ethnic quotas would be against some of the racial equality laws.. both in the UK and the EU
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,684
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    Sugar made his own money, whereas Trump's current wealth is inheritance+ trackers.

    I'm not denying he has an ego (Don't all billionaires !), but I don't think he's so bothered about politics to run as Mayor of London.
    Trump's wealth is inheritance + leverage.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,443

    We have on PB now two regular Labour England writers. What we still lack are regular contributions in the comments from a SLAB activist. But maybe that just indicates the state of SLAB and how they are likely to suffer more losses in Scotland next year.

    I find it a shame to see this is still the case on coming back after a break. We did have one possible in the indyref and GE 2015 period, but s/he wouldn't come out of the closet and admit it, so it would be bad manners, as well as unfair, to name her or him.

    And I've just seen the twitters from two of the by elections - SNP 59% in Glenrothes. Glenrothes!!!

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited October 2015
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055

    antifrank said:

    The Mayoral election is Labour's to lose. But they are capable of losing it.

    Neither Sadiq Khan nor Zac Goldsmith looks like an amazing candidate to me, though both are capable enough. Sadiq Khan is likely to have both a stronger attraction factor than Zac Goldsmith and a stronger repulsion factor than the Conservative. My expectation is that he will also have the better electoral machine, especially if he can get those Corbynistas doing more than just tweeting. How vigorously will Boris Johnson help his old school chum?

    Will Jeremy Corbyn himself affect the race (positively or negatively)? Maybe. The unpopularity of government didn't stop Boris Johnson being re-elected in 2012 and the popularity of Tony Blair didn't stop Ken Livingstone getting elected in 2000 ahead of the official Labour candidate, but both had far bigger profiles at those dates than either of those two do now. Politics has been mildly hysterical for the last month or so. Surely it will calm down a bit in the coming months. Ultimately I expect the London public to elect their preferred mayor rather than pass judgement on the Labour leader in this election.

    Taken as a whole (ignoring other candidates), I would currently price it at 4/7 Khan, 7/4 Goldsmith.

    Khan will be a divisive figure, and a lot depends on turnout across different demographics. Zac is a Trustifarian on an extended gap year. I hope they both lose.
    Hence the chance for Sugar
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    So would I - it'd be interesting to see if any legal eagles here have a view.

    I would have thought that Ethnic quotas would be against some of the racial equality laws.. both in the UK and the EU

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,977
    Mr. Dair, SLAB has a strategy?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Max Mosley was one of the biggest donors to Tom Watson's Deputy Leadership campaign according to the Times

    That'll be because they share an utter hatred of Mr Murdoch.
    Got it
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Mr. Dair, SLAB has a strategy?

    Fair point.

    The new SLAB Thought For The Day is to pretend Scotland doesn't exist.

    Hmm, thought seems to imply some level of intelligence. How about : -

    The new SLAB Top Bullet Point is to pretend Scotland doesn't exist?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    edited October 2015
    Carnyx said:

    We have on PB now two regular Labour England writers. What we still lack are regular contributions in the comments from a SLAB activist. But maybe that just indicates the state of SLAB and how they are likely to suffer more losses in Scotland next year.

    I find it a shame to see this is still the case on coming back after a break. We did have one possible in the indyref and GE 2015 period, but s/he wouldn't come out of the closet and admit it, so it would be bad manners, as well as unfair, to name her or him.

    And I've just seen the twitters from two of the by elections - SNP 59% in Glenrothes. Glenrothes!!!

    The SNP won 59. 8% in Glenrothes in May and last time these seats were up in 2012 the SNP won only 32% in the local elections compared to 50% at the general election and 45% at the last Scottish Parliament election so even if the SNP are slightly down from May they will still get big swings in council by elections
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Wow, Obama looks and sounds utterly defeated on gun control - he cannot even muster the energy to go through the usual motions anymore I see.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,443
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    We have on PB now two regular Labour England writers. What we still lack are regular contributions in the comments from a SLAB activist. But maybe that just indicates the state of SLAB and how they are likely to suffer more losses in Scotland next year.

    I find it a shame to see this is still the case on coming back after a break. We did have one possible in the indyref and GE 2015 period, but s/he wouldn't come out of the closet and admit it, so it would be bad manners, as well as unfair, to name her or him.

    And I've just seen the twitters from two of the by elections - SNP 59% in Glenrothes. Glenrothes!!!

    The SNP won 59. 8% in Glenrothes in May and last time these seats were up in 2012 the SNP won only 32% in the local elections compared to 50% at the general election and 45% at the last Scottish Parliament election so even if the SNP are slightly down from May they will still get big swings in council by elections
    Thanks for that. The actual seat changes will be trickier to interpret of course, if any 2nd or lower pref seats were vacant, but that vote percentage is interesting.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,684

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    rcs1000 said:

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
    What a puerile remark.

    The number of houses in the capital hasn't dropped, the population has risen, demand has exceeded supply hence high rents and prices. Its called the market.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015

    antifrank said:

    The Mayoral election is Labour's to lose. But they are capable of losing it.

    Neither Sadiq Khan nor Zac Goldsmith looks like an amazing candidate to me, though both are capable enough. Sadiq Khan is likely to have both a stronger attraction factor than Zac Goldsmith and a stronger repulsion factor than the Conservative. My expectation is that he will also have the better electoral machine, especially if he can get those Corbynistas doing more than just tweeting. How vigorously will Boris Johnson help his old school chum?

    Will Jeremy Corbyn himself affect the race (positively or negatively)? Maybe. The unpopularity of government didn't stop Boris Johnson being re-elected in 2012 and the popularity of Tony Blair didn't stop Ken Livingstone getting elected in 2000 ahead of the official Labour candidate, but both had far bigger profiles at those dates than either of those two do now. Politics has been mildly hysterical for the last month or so. Surely it will calm down a bit in the coming months. Ultimately I expect the London public to elect their preferred mayor rather than pass judgement on the Labour leader in this election.

    Taken as a whole (ignoring other candidates), I would currently price it at 4/7 Khan, 7/4 Goldsmith.

    Khan will be a divisive figure, and a lot depends on turnout across different demographics. Zac is a Trustifarian on an extended gap year. I hope they both lose.
    Goldsmith is an incredibly fortunate individual who could simply kick back on a 300 foot yacht somewhere, but chooses instead to do something worthwhile. All credit to him for that.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
    What a puerile remark.

    The number of houses in the capital hasn't dropped, the population has risen, demand has exceeded supply hence high rents and prices. Its called the market.

    Ah, someone who knows there's a difference between a rent and a price. That's a start - the next lesson is to find out what the difference is.

  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    rcs1000 said:

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
    What a puerile remark.

    The number of houses in the capital hasn't dropped, the population has risen, demand has exceeded supply hence high rents and prices. Its called the market.

    Ah, someone who knows there's a difference between a rent and a price. That's a start - the next lesson is to find out what the difference is.

    No need for anybody to find out, the market always finds its price.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    A large portion of Londoners nowadays would benefit from anti white discrimination law, and turnout in those regions is well over 100%
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    A thoroughly decent chap, having met him a few years ago, Sadiq Khan should win comfortably.

    Anyone who thinks he hasn't got a chance are clearly unaware of the intracies of London politics....
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    murali_s said:

    A thoroughly decent chap, having met him a few years ago, Sadiq Khan should win comfortably.

    Anyone who thinks he hasn't got a chance are clearly unaware of the intracies of London politics....

    Tower Hamlets.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning from a foggy Amsterdam airport!

    Anyone but Sadiq Khan please. His nasty racially divisive identity politics leads to what happened in Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, it needs driving out of British politics for good and never allowed to return.

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    Well said - the merest possibility of Khan winning makes me glad I live outside the voting zone.

    Zack, Lynton, the economy and the crackdown on voter registrations will see him off.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,842
    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    He could. He's variously 66/1, which is probably worth a punt.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Maybe the answer is to aggressively build more homes outside London, perhaps as part of the Northern Powerhouse to ease population pressure in the capital and provide an economic stimulus where it is needed.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
    What a puerile remark.

    The number of houses in the capital hasn't dropped, the population has risen, demand has exceeded supply hence high rents and prices. Its called the market.

    Ah, someone who knows there's a difference between a rent and a price. That's a start - the next lesson is to find out what the difference is.

    No need for anybody to find out, the market always finds its price.
    And how often does it find a rent?

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    TGOHF said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning from a foggy Amsterdam airport!

    Anyone but Sadiq Khan please. His nasty racially divisive identity politics leads to what happened in Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, it needs driving out of British politics for good and never allowed to return.

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    Well said - the merest possibility of Khan winning makes me glad I live outside the voting zone.

    Zack, Lynton, the economy and the crackdown on voter registrations will see him off.
    Add Khan's misuse of Parliamentary expenses into the mix.
  • TGOHF said:

    Sandpit said:

    Good morning from a foggy Amsterdam airport!

    Anyone but Sadiq Khan please. His nasty racially divisive identity politics leads to what happened in Rotherham and Tower Hamlets, it needs driving out of British politics for good and never allowed to return.

    If the Tories go for Zac as expected, and given the electoral system, does that leave an opportunity for an unashamedly pro-City, pro-LHR-expansion, pro-driverless-Underground-trains independent candidate to stand with a reasonable chance of coming through..?

    Well said - the merest possibility of Khan winning makes me glad I live outside the voting zone.

    Zack, Lynton, the economy and the crackdown on voter registrations will see him off.
    How many Labour MPs do you reckon were elected fraudulently last time? All of them?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,988
    edited October 2015
    Watford

    "Goldsmith is an incredibly fortunate individual who could simply kick back on a 300 foot yacht somewhere, but chooses instead to do something worthwhile. All credit to him for that."

    You could say the same for Robert Mugabe or indeed almost any African or Arab ruler. Power is what money buys.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,529
    I do not see a lot of frothing about the by election results this fine morning, did the London parties do badly.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    "Am I biased? Just a bit. I was the chair of governors at Ernest Bevin school Tooting in the 80s when we appointed the first Muslim head of a London school. That head, Naz Bokhari, became a role model and mentor for the young Sadiq, the son of a bus driver who had migrated from Pakistan. Goldsmith, of course, is an old Etonian, who inherited millions from his financial wheeler-dealing father."

    Simply amazing that someone can write that line, with all the problems over muslim governered schools in Birmingham and the capital, and think it was a positive.

    As someone else said, most people aren't bothered by class war, the electoral successes of Cameron and Boris Johnson are testament to that.

    I wonder how many muslims will vote for Zac? I bet they will be the shyest of shy tories when asked down the the local mosque
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Roger said:

    Watford

    "Goldsmith is an incredibly fortunate individual who could simply kick back on a 300 foot yacht somewhere, but chooses instead to do something worthwhile. All credit to him for that."

    You could say the same for Robert Mugabe or indeed almost any African or Arab ruler. Power is what money buys. A ridiculous comment

    Those individuals have gained wealth corruptly from their time in office.

    What accusation are you making against Goldsmith?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Zac v Khan
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,553
    Ethnic quotas may not be unpopular in London (as they would be elsewhere). It's only 45% White British, and its electorate is well to the Left of the UK as a whole.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    We have on PB now two regular Labour England writers. What we still lack are regular contributions in the comments from a SLAB activist. But maybe that just indicates the state of SLAB and how they are likely to suffer more losses in Scotland next year.

    I find it a shame to see this is still the case on coming back after a break. We did have one possible in the indyref and GE 2015 period, but s/he wouldn't come out of the closet and admit it, so it would be bad manners, as well as unfair, to name her or him.

    And I've just seen the twitters from two of the by elections - SNP 59% in Glenrothes. Glenrothes!!!

    The SNP won 59. 8% in Glenrothes in May and last time these seats were up in 2012 the SNP won only 32% in the local elections compared to 50% at the general election and 45% at the last Scottish Parliament election so even if the SNP are slightly down from May they will still get big swings in council by elections
    Thanks for that. The actual seat changes will be trickier to interpret of course, if any 2nd or lower pref seats were vacant, but that vote percentage is interesting.

    Indeed the locals are the last to see an SNP surge they were 1% ahead of Labour in 2012
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited October 2015
    Roger ..even for you that is a high level of total tosh..Mugabe..some Arab Dictator..v Zac..heheh
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,515

    Maybe the answer is to aggressively build more homes outside London, perhaps as part of the Northern Powerhouse to ease population pressure in the capital and provide an economic stimulus where it is needed.

    Infrastructure is more important than homes in such areas. Build an infrastructure (along with regulations) that attracts business, and people (and builders) will follow.

    Look at how the Docklands Light Railway opened up docklands for redevelopment, followed closely by the insanely expensive Limehouse Link tunnel (which was, afaicr, over £100,000 per metre in 1991 prices)

    The last thing we need are brand new estates with little work inside them, and sod-all transport links to areas with work.

    To their credit, some northern cities (e.g. Manchester) are rapidly improving their infrastructure. Others, less so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,055

    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    He could. He's variously 66/1, which is probably worth a punt.
    Well worth it
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Quotas, eh? Leaving aside that Khan does not actually seem to be proposing their introduction, it might be they would not prove as unpopular as some suggest, provided they are seen as addressing current unfairness. David Cameron does seem to be Prime Minister despite having increased the number of women standing for his party.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Sean_F said:

    Ethnic quotas may not be unpopular in London (as they would be elsewhere). It's only 45% White British, and its electorate is well to the Left of the UK as a whole.

    Yes they could be what win it for Khan... People forget that white brits are a minority in London, and the people who will benefit are renowned for voting in their own interest. I think there has been polling on it?

    Khan would destroy community cohesion in London, but this kind of thing has long been inevitable
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2015

    Roger ..even for you ghat is a high level of total tosh..

    It's curious to see Roger comparing a British politician to some of his murderous heroes.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @asabenn: Zac Goldsmith is now the Tory London Mayoral candidate - and @YouGov says he'll safely beat Labour's Sadiq Khan. http://t.co/68cMn8zh6j
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,686
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    What about Lord Sugar as an independent? He was scathing about Khan and Corbyn yesterday and has never been a Cameron fan either and I expect he sees Zac Goldsmith as someone who has never run anything other than his trust fund. Sugar has the name recognition and money to run his own campaign and if Trump, another Apprentice host, can run for president why not Sugar for Mayor?

    Sugar made his own money, whereas Trump's current wealth is inheritance+ trackers.

    I'm not denying he has an ego (Don't all billionaires !), but I don't think he's so bothered about politics to run as Mayor of London.
    Sugar led the Standard this week with his attacks on Khan and Corbyn and has just completed his latest property venture and could be looking for a new project and if he did run he would have a strong chance of winning
    Sugar in the Standard last night just sounded juvenile.

    Sugar about Corbyn - " If they ever got anywhere near electing him and him being Prime Minister then I think we should all move to China or somewhere like that and let this place rot".
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    rcs1000 said:

    Next year's election is going to be over housing. Any Tory, even one of charismatic as Goldsmith, is going to have a tough time convincing voters that they won't be favoring the big developers.

    As opposed to what? Not developing? If London's housing problem is in large part a shortage then surely the candidates should be backing as much as is sustainably possible - and who can deliver on that except the big developers?

    If that's the level of Labour thinking, they might as well go in on a slogan of "No to business, no to profit, no to success". Because obviously that's what people come to London for.

    Developers per se are not the problem. It's what they develop. The lack of affordable housing in London is scandalous. London does not need any more luxury housing projects designed for non-residents looking to get money out of their own countries.

    Its not the lack of housing that's the problem its the number of people.
    Sure you mean, "it's the nationality of the people"?
    What a puerile remark.

    The number of houses in the capital hasn't dropped, the population has risen, demand has exceeded supply hence high rents and prices. Its called the market.

    Ah, someone who knows there's a difference between a rent and a price. That's a start - the next lesson is to find out what the difference is.

    No need for anybody to find out, the market always finds its price.
    And how often does it find a rent?

    It finds a rent every time a landlord finds a tenant

  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited October 2015
    isam said:

    "Am I biased? Just a bit. I was the chair of governors at Ernest Bevin school Tooting in the 80s when we appointed the first Muslim head of a London school. That head, Naz Bokhari, became a role model and mentor for the young Sadiq, the son of a bus driver who had migrated from Pakistan. Goldsmith, of course, is an old Etonian, who inherited millions from his financial wheeler-dealing father."

    Simply amazing that someone can write that line, with all the problems over muslim governered schools in Birmingham and the capital, and think it was a positive.

    As someone else said, most people aren't bothered by class war, the electoral successes of Cameron and Boris Johnson are testament to that. I wonder how many muslims will vote for Zac? I bet they will be the shyest of shy tories when asked down the the local mosque

    I think Sam you overlook the fact that for some lefties they have an in built assumption that all muslims are wonderful. After all Jesus was from the middle east and he could walk on water.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    watford30 said:

    antifrank said:

    The Mayoral election is Labour's to lose. But they are capable of losing it.

    Neither Sadiq Khan nor Zac Goldsmith looks like an amazing candidate to me, though both are capable enough. Sadiq Khan is likely to have both a stronger attraction factor than Zac Goldsmith and a stronger repulsion factor than the Conservative. My expectation is that he will also have the better electoral machine, especially if he can get those Corbynistas doing more than just tweeting. How vigorously will Boris Johnson help his old school chum?

    Will Jeremy Corbyn himself affect the race (positively or negatively)? Maybe. The unpopularity of government didn't stop Boris Johnson being re-elected in 2012 and the popularity of Tony Blair didn't stop Ken Livingstone getting elected in 2000 ahead of the official Labour candidate, but both had far bigger profiles at those dates than either of those two do now. Politics has been mildly hysterical for the last month or so. Surely it will calm down a bit in the coming months. Ultimately I expect the London public to elect their preferred mayor rather than pass judgement on the Labour leader in this election.

    Taken as a whole (ignoring other candidates), I would currently price it at 4/7 Khan, 7/4 Goldsmith.

    Khan will be a divisive figure, and a lot depends on turnout across different demographics. Zac is a Trustifarian on an extended gap year. I hope they both lose.
    Goldsmith is an incredibly fortunate individual who could simply kick back on a 300 foot yacht somewhere, but chooses instead to do something worthwhile. All credit to him for that.
    He is marginally less repulsive than his father, I agree. But what has he ever done to justify his existance? He slipped comfortably from some genteel greenism to a safe west London seat. Just the old parasitic aristocracy revived for a new generation.

    I am glad that I am not a Londoner having to choose between these two pisspoor candidates.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited October 2015
    Sorry Jeremy.

    My mandate is bigger than yours.

    Best,

    Zac.

    (%!!!)
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited October 2015
    Housing will swing it for Khan, I think.

    Unless you live in London it is honestly difficult to grasp.

    I used to live in Colchester. Not the cheapest, but for the price of a two bed house there you can get a a cupboard under the stairs (literally) in Clapham.

    Between me an my three housemates, we pay the average net salary in rent each year. In Leyton. Leyton!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,419
    I'm very glad to see that Zac is confirmed as the candidate.

    Definitely to my financial advantage...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2015

    Quotas, eh? Leaving aside that Khan does not actually seem to be proposing their introduction, it might be they would not prove as unpopular as some suggest, provided they are seen as addressing current unfairness. David Cameron does seem to be Prime Minister despite having increased the number of women standing for his party.

    "I will introduce quotas... vows Sadiq Khan"

    ""So I will be clear: as London Mayor I will introduce affirmative action..."

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/sadiq-khan-declares-war-race-inequality

    http://www.sadiq.london/i_will_introduce_quotas_to_make_the_met_look_more_like_londoners_vows_sadiq_khan
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    So say three people are interviewed for a job..all equally qualified...and the one chosen is from an ethnic minority...because he,she ,is from an ethnic minority..repeat ten thousand fold throughout the city..then stand back and wait for the riots..
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    isam said:

    "Am I biased? Just a bit. I was the chair of governors at Ernest Bevin school Tooting in the 80s when we appointed the first Muslim head of a London school. That head, Naz Bokhari, became a role model and mentor for the young Sadiq, the son of a bus driver who had migrated from Pakistan. Goldsmith, of course, is an old Etonian, who inherited millions from his financial wheeler-dealing father."

    Simply amazing that someone can write that line, with all the problems over muslim governered schools in Birmingham and the capital, and think it was a positive.

    As someone else said, most people aren't bothered by class war, the electoral successes of Cameron and Boris Johnson are testament to that. I wonder how many muslims will vote for Zac? I bet they will be the shyest of shy tories when asked down the the local mosque

    I think Sam you overlook the fact that for some lefties they have an in built assumption that all muslims are wonderful. After all Jesus was from the middle east and he could walk on water.
    And you overlook that Sadiq Khan has criticised militant Islamism and Corbyn's links to such organisations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,994
    murali_s said:

    A thoroughly decent chap, having met him a few years ago, Sadiq Khan should win comfortably.

    Anyone who thinks he hasn't got a chance are clearly unaware of the intracies of London politics....

    Scott_P said:

    @asabenn: Zac Goldsmith is now the Tory London Mayoral candidate - and @YouGov says he'll safely beat Labour's Sadiq Khan. http://t.co/68cMn8zh6j

    Well, somebody is wrong.....!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,996
    Morning all :)

    As a Londoner whose vote will be entirely irrelevant next year - I will vote for Caroline Pidgeon who is far and away the best candidate (but I would say that, wouldn't I ?) of those who have declared, I regard the choice between Khan and (as seems likely) Goldsmith as the same as choosing between drowning and being burned alive.

    Goldsmith is arguably "Continuity Boris" for all that Boris has achieved next to nothing meaningful as Mayor for all his bluster and buffoonery. Khan has "form" as we say but the question for both leading candidates in a highly polarised electorate is which of them will pick up enough second preferences from the assorted minority Green, LD, UKIP etc, etc voting pools to secure victory.

    At the moment, I couldn't vote for either of them as a second preference hence my voting irrelevance.

    It's tough (though not impossible as Ken showed) for an Independent to come through and do well but I doubt a pro-City, pro-Heathrow expansion candidate will do much more than join the also-rans and at worst would more likely split the Goldsmith vote so it almost certainly won't happen.

    A more interesting alternative might be the Devomax for London candidate arguing for much greater powers for the GLA and Boroughs along the lines of the Scottish Parliament. Such a candidate with a well-argued case would be compelling.

    The pro-Gatwick lobby are still fighting their corner hard and their arguments are interesting as a counterpoint to the LHR supporters or to those who unfortunately want to take the ostrich route. Khan is right that housing and transport remain huge issues in London and because there are no easy answers (if there were they would be done) the can is continually kicked down the road.

    Housing is a multi-faceted hydra-esque issue which demands far better answers than "let's build more houses" because it's not just about four walls and a roof (or ceiling). It's about creating places to live which means infrastructure, services and communities and that's the tough bit. The "garden city" idea is still of merit but again it needs infrastructure otherwise all we build are soulless dormitory suburbs for the ravenous beast that is London.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Are the Lib Dems bothering this time round?
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