Not in the least bit surprised by the polling for Jeremy Corbyn supporters, when observed in their natural habit on social media, they are quite clearly barking mad.
The problem they have is, is that they really, really care. Their opponents do not care as much, so when the crunch in debate comes they nip out for some toast or a cup of tea rather than spend all night on twitter making a fuss and trying to seem like a massive movement. But when the vote comes around they both have one each.
We need a second car in a month, and I'm considering doing just that. There's a risk, but I might be able to screw them down on a really good deal. Even though I'm not a particularly good haggler.
Other manufacturers are feeling the heat too. If Volkswagen could do it....
If more of them falls foul of this then the industry may be safe. The EU cannot afford to have the ENTIRE automotive sector go *boom*. If it is only Volkswagen then one sacrifice for the good of the rest might be viewed as worth it.
I suspect that good deals are going to be found on more than VW forecourts.
Yep.
As an aside, I'm surprised this hasn't come out earlier. .... Given this, what are the chances that Ford, Toyota, Honda etc don't rip apart and test their rivals' products. And if they're doing that, they'd be really incompetent if they didn't know the defeat device was there.
So why were they keeping quiet? There's an ominous answer: MAD.
It will be interesting to see what happens, but for now VW may have a cash-flow problem to add to the enormous fines and huge share drop.
Incidentally, does the "defeat device" work during MOT tests?
As I understand the software, the US device is programmed to recognise the conditions of a US based emissions test and react accordingly.. An MOT test would not meet those conditions..as it is purely an emissions test based on CO and smoke.. and there is no rolling road used -(for emissions)...
Unless it has been reprogrammed to recognise an MOT test. If it has been that would be I suspect death for VAG...in the UK at least.
I believe the VAG 3.0D V6 used in VAG, Audi and Porsche cars may also be affectd..
Thanks for that. Do you know of any good links into a technical breakdown of this?
His constituents, on the other hand, were perfectly happy with him, which is why he has had increased majorities even while the party lost.
Apart from 2010 there is not a single election where Corbyn has bucked the trend. His vote has been up when Labour were up and down when Labour were down.
Thanks. I had read otherwise.
Generally speaking, everything I have ever read about personal votes and individuals bucking trends has never stood up to any sort of scrutiny.
It is probably the biggest myth in UK politics.
I don't think it's ever been particularly hyped, has it? I remember reading one account which said that, at its best, the personal vote is no more that 1000-1500 votes. But what a hard working MP may be able to do is convert a small majority into a larger one e.g. Farron.
There are other factors to bear in mind as well. For some MPs - and Farron is a terrific example of this - if you have the local newspaper in your pocket then it all becomes a whole lot easier.
Plus the Tories had become hugely complacent there. Much like Labour in Scotland. That's what happens when you take voters for granted.
I find it baffling that parties periodically turn in on themselves to the extent that they effectively turn round and spit at the voters. Some self-reflection is always necessary after a defeat but to do that well it is not necessary to spit at voters like some deranged puff adder. And yet that's what they do. Most odd.
We need a second car in a month, and I'm considering doing just that. There's a risk, but I might be able to screw them down on a really good deal. Even though I'm not a particularly good haggler.
Other manufacturers are feeling the heat too. If Volkswagen could do it....
If more of them falls foul of this then the industry may be safe. The EU cannot afford to have the ENTIRE automotive sector go *boom*. If it is only Volkswagen then one sacrifice for the good of the rest might be viewed as worth it.
I suspect that good deals are going to be found on more than VW forecourts.
Yep.
As an aside, I'm surprised this hasn't come out earlier. .... Given this, what are the chances that Ford, Toyota, Honda etc don't rip apart and test their rivals' products. And if they're doing that, they'd be really incompetent if they didn't know the defeat device was there.
So why were they keeping quiet? There's an ominous answer: MAD.
It will be interesting to see what happens, but for now VW may have a cash-flow problem to add to the enormous fines and huge share drop.
Incidentally, does the "defeat device" work during MOT tests?
As I understand the software, the US device is programmed to recognise the conditions of a US based emissions test and react accordingly.. An MOT test would not meet those conditions..as it is purely an emissions test based on CO and smoke.. and there is no rolling road used -(for emissions)...
Unless it has been reprogrammed to recognise an MOT test. If it has been that would be I suspect death for VAG...in the UK at least.
I believe the VAG 3.0D V6 used in VAG, Audi and Porsche cars may also be affectd..
Thanks for that. Do you know of any good links into a technical breakdown of this?
I see that you have turned Extreme Leftie, Sunil. You can't be serious, can you?
Inspired by the movie Aliens (1986):
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
We need a second car in a month, and I'm considering doing just that. There's a risk, but I might be able to screw them down on a really good deal. Even though I'm not a particularly good haggler.
Other manufacturers are feeling the heat too. If Volkswagen could do it....
If more of them falls foul of this then the industry may be safe. The EU cannot afford to have the ENTIRE automotive sector go *boom*. If it is only Volkswagen then one sacrifice for the good of the rest might be viewed as worth it.
I suspect that good deals are going to be found on more than VW forecourts.
Yep.
As an aside, I'm surprised this hasn't come out earlier. .... Given this, what are the chances that Ford, Toyota, Honda etc don't rip apart and test their rivals' products. And if they're doing that, they'd be really incompetent if they didn't know the defeat device was there.
So why were they keeping quiet? There's an ominous answer: MAD.
It will be interesting to see what happens, but for now VW may have a cash-flow problem to add to the enormous fines and huge share drop.
Incidentally, does the "defeat device" work during MOT tests?
As I understand the software, the US device is programmed to recognise the conditions of a US based emissions test and react accordingly.. An MOT test would not meet those conditions..as it is purely an emissions test based on CO and smoke.. and there is no rolling road used -(for emissions)...
Unless it has been reprogrammed to recognise an MOT test. If it has been that would be I suspect death for VAG...in the UK at least.
I believe the VAG 3.0D V6 used in VAG, Audi and Porsche cars may also be affectd..
Thanks for that. Do you know of any good links into a technical breakdown of this?
That is what they get for not buying a BMW
A BMW X5 passed the Californian emissions test which VAG failed...
This is the problem with letting a couple of hundred thousand entryists dictate the party leader for a mainstream party. Their opinions are not representative of the wider public or centre left. Labour have a long road ahead of them if they stick with Corbyn. Sadly I don't see how they will be able to ditch him with the same rules for leader present or the same membership as they currently have.
Any replacement would have to be a Senior Shadow Cabinet Minister seen as of the Left i.e. Hillary Benn just as Michael Howard, a rightwinger who was IDS' Shadow Chancellor was the only logical alternative in 2003
We need to 'raise awareness' of Premier League football in China apparently...
twitter.com/tommctague/status/646708496138924032
Do grow up
What do you mean? Osborne said the cash was to "significantly increase" China's awareness of English football
At the end of this typical Mail diatribe is ... ''The Premier Skills initiative, operated since 2008 by the Premier League and British Council, is designed to bring through new coaches and referees across the world and inspire young people to get involved in football. So far the programme has trained 1,100 coaches and reached nearly 500,000 young people in China, and the new UK government cash has allowed it to be extended for the first time to the rural Xinjiang region. Most of the players who met the Chancellor were from the region's Uighur ethnic minority.''
'since 2008' so to repeat ... do grow up.
And as a PS Some oaf complained about 'giving' China £2bn... re the power station deal l suppose but this is a loan guarantee not a payment and will not get used.
The free market could do it for nothing but I'm not going to argue any more.. big statists like yourself always want the last word
I love this deselection nonsense from Labour.. they just keep digging that big hole..be pooping up in Sydney soon..
Simon Danczuck was already completely isolated from the rest of the Labour party long before Corbyn became leader. He's only managed to avoid being kicked out because he is the leader of the anti-pedophile crusade, but as time passes his immunity will diminish, unless he can produce an occasional sensation with his investigations.
Stepping back a minute, the idea of deselecting a proven winner when you are in opposition is bonkers. Unless you wanted to lose the election.
Politics is about power. Not feeling good in defeat.
There is too much "feeling" going on in public life, to my mind.
Less emoting, more hard thinking. That would be good.
Thinking is hard though, Mrs Free. Not only that but if you communicate your thoughts then you are bound to upset some people. Much easier for a politician just to emote, agree with the loudest voices and kick all contentious decisions into the long grass. Of course that leads to piss poor governance and long term impoverishment of the majority of people, but then that isn't your worry.
Apologies for going off-topic straight away, but I do need to respond to Hurst Llama.
"Sean_F said:
that on here because it comes close to saying *looks around to see who is listening and then whispers*, "white flight"
That's a factor. But there are others. A very big increase in the student/university worker population in some seats; continued drift leftwards in Scotland, Merseyside, and the urban North.
On the plus side for the Conservatives, rapid economic growth in prosperous areas ing.
I think there are some seats that have definitely trended to Con e.g. Kingswood and Sherwood. There are also areas like NE Wales and the Potteries where Lab is losing votes to UKIP, which may help Con come through the middle of the trend continues
Wales has been shifting rightwards ever so slightly, at most elections since 1970. For a long time, Labour's position in Wales was so strong that this didn't matter, but now it is starting to cost Labour seats. You're certainly correct about seats like Kingswood and Sherwood, but these were won narrowly by the Conservatives nds than in 1992, and far better outside Birmingham, Nottingham, and Leicester). The good news for Labour is that parts of the South are starting to vote like Greater London (eg Brighton, Hove, Exeter). The big political divide, as he points out, is between London and core cities vs small cities/big towns/rural areas. He finds that levels of car ownership are a significant factor in political allegiances.
I should add that Jeremy Corbyn is the ideal leader to ensure that more of the Midlands votes like the South, while less of the South votes like Greater London.
Sherwood was Labour in 1992 as were Gower, Thurrock, Nuneaton, Warwickshire North, Ipswich, Southampton Itchen and some other Labour seats won by Cameron. Cameron also won seats like Truro, North Cornwall, North Devon, Berwick, Yeovil and Montgomeryshire which wereLD in 1992
Thanks. I thought it was a narrow hold. But, I still think it's correct that the bulk of Conservative gains come from the creation of new seats.
Maybe but you can also add Kingswood, Warrington South, Carlisle, Crewe and Nantwich, Cannock Chase, Rossendale and Darwen, Pembrokeshire and Pendle and Bath and Cheltenham to the seats won by Kinnock and Ashdown in 1992 but Cameron in 2015
This re-runs the "stand for something we care about and maybe even win" vs "be electable at all costs and maybe even do something worthwhile" argument which was decisively answered (rightly or wrongly) in the leadership election.
Yes, that is correct. I'm not sure it should be any consolation, though - rather the reverse, since Corbyn's mandate was sufficiently large to make it hard to start the necessary corrective action.
No consolation needed. We've got what we wanted as the first priority - a leadership with distinctive ideals that most of us (members) like. The second stage will be harder, as most of us realised, but it's still the right way round. PB, with its bias to people heavily involved in politics, draws too deeply on the football match metaphor - that it's all about winning. Winning is a means to an end, and without an end that you yearn for - for the sake of the country or other people or whatever else you feel important - it becomes soulless and essentially a waste of time.
I don't know that you really disagree. Aren't there some things in the Conservative Party which make you feel it's really desirable that they win, and which would make you lose heart if they abandoned them?
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
Or "Want to be forced to billet a Syrian family? Then vote STAY..."
Or "make Nigel Farage poor - vote out"
The underlying fundamentals look awful. I think we could get voting snobbery here. Who wants to be associated with being out-of-touch, backward and bigoted?
The solution would seem to be to make Leave warm, open-minded and positive about the UK and its future, paint staying in as very risky (status quo not an option) and get well-educated rational people to lead it. Farage should be kept well away.
Leave can't just rely on the EU repeatedly shooting itself in the foot over the next eighteen months.
Or "Want to be forced to billet a Syrian family? Then vote STAY..."
Or "make Nigel Farage poor - vote out"
The underlying fundamentals look awful. I think we could get voting snobbery here. Who wants to be associated with being out-of-touch, backward and bigoted?
The solution would seem to be to make Leave warm, open-minded and positive about the UK and its future, paint staying in as very risky (status quo not an option) and get well-educated rational people to lead it. Farage should be kept well away.
Leave can't just rely on the EU repeatedly shooting itself in the foot over the next eighteen months.
I;m going for vote out and you get a second referendum free
This is the problem with letting a couple of hundred thousand entryists dictate the party leader for a mainstream party. Their opinions are not representative of the wider public or centre left. Labour have a long road ahead of them if they stick with Corbyn. Sadly I don't see how they will be able to ditch him with the same rules for leader present or the same membership as they currently have.
Any replacement would have to be a Senior Shadow Cabinet Minister seen as of the Left i.e. Hillary Benn just as Michael Howard, a rightwinger who was IDS' Shadow Chancellor was the only logical alternative in 2003
Andy Burnham... please.
Burnham would be the David Davis choice, Hilary Benn the Michael Howard choice, it was Howard who replaced IDS in the end unopposed
Or "Want to be forced to billet a Syrian family? Then vote STAY..."
Or "make Nigel Farage poor - vote out"
The underlying fundamentals look awful. I think we could get voting snobbery here. Who wants to be associated with being out-of-touch, backward and bigoted?
The solution would seem to be to make Leave warm, open-minded and positive about the UK and its future, paint staying in as very risky (status quo not an option) and get well-educated rational people to lead it. Farage should be kept well away.
Leave can't just rely on the EU repeatedly shooting itself in the foot over the next eighteen months.
Speaking of shooting itself in the foot, the Austrian government is set to pass a new Asylum seekers law, which will enable the Austrian government to confiscate private property to turn it to asylum seekers dwellings. The only ones voting against are the far-right FPO who are vastly ahead in the polls anyway.
Or "Want to be forced to billet a Syrian family? Then vote STAY..."
Or "make Nigel Farage poor - vote out"
The underlying fundamentals look awful. I think we could get voting snobbery here. Who wants to be associated with being out-of-touch, backward and bigoted?
The solution would seem to be to make Leave warm, open-minded and positive about the UK and its future, paint staying in as very risky (status quo not an option) and get well-educated rational people to lead it. Farage should be kept well away.
Leave can't just rely on the EU repeatedly shooting itself in the foot over the next eighteen months.
Opinion has perhaps shifted towards Leave since Mid August.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Jim should know about living in a post-Truth world, hee's been living in one for 20 years.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
Some interesting Murphy comments
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
I see that you have turned Extreme Leftie, Sunil. You can't be serious, can you?
Inspired by the movie Aliens (1986):
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
Jim should know about living in a post-Truth world, hee's been living in one for 20 years.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
Some interesting Murphy comments
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Yes, but according to the latest EU polls Out is either ahead or just behind already, Yes only made it close in the final months
Jim should know about living in a post-Truth world, hee's been living in one for 20 years.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
Some interesting Murphy comments
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
I'll go with that.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
There's already a Department for Work (and pensions) and the last time I looked that meant much the same as employment. And I can't see that machinery of government changes would be big sellers politically.
Jim should know about living in a post-Truth world, hee's been living in one for 20 years.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
Some interesting Murphy comments
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
The man is so completely deranged and utterly divorced from reality.
Whatever protestations he makes to being X, he gives all the impressions of being on the hardest of the hard stuff. All the time.
Maybe, but he does have a point that we move on from the cybernats and the Yes hecklers and the CIFs and the JezWeCan Lobby handing over the baton to the Daily Mail/Telegraph comments page members and the Kippers to take over the populist banner as EU ref looms. From Salmond to Corbyn to Farage with Brussels taking over from Westminster and New Labour as the evil tyrant of the moment!
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
Second, don’t pander to populism, because, unchallenged, it has an appetite that can never be satisfied. The Scottish Labour Party’s demise began with losing an argument it didn’t make a quarter-century ago. As partisan support for Labour diminished, we continued to borrow votes from the Scots while losing their affection. For some in Labour’s ranks, that didn’t seem to matter. Although I wasn’t a leading advocate of that approach, it would be churlish for me not to accept my share of culpability. We should have made a case against the nationalist shibboleths about oil, the Barnett formula and defence much earlier, and then more often. Instead, we implied: “Aye, we know that’s what you think but if you vote SNP you’ll get the Tories.”
It's interesting how when it comes to Scotland, the Blairites say the reason things went wrong is because they failed to challenge the SNP's arguments robustly (giving the electorate a way out of their "false consciousness"), yet whenever anyone makes a similar argument about the English public having Tory economic views because Labour haven't challenged it, they dismiss it.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
The EU has nothing to do with peace in Europe. Indeed the way they are behaving they are more likely than not to be responsible for the next war.
One segment of the population this poll and other polls seem to ignore is the one where people do not vote but are registered. A good third of the population are in the electoral register but do not vote. These people are not the ones not in the register.
Corbyn could attract many of these people. 5 - 10%. But pollsters systematically ignore them as they are considered unlikely to vote [ the records indeed indicate that ]
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
We love you too.
Basically Alf Garnett will simply replace Rab C Nesbitt as indyref gives way to EUref
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
Most committed 'inners' are ignorant little Englanders whose experience of the big world beyond our shores is limited to 2 weeks eating fish and chips on the Costa Del Sol every year and think that makes them experts on the benefits of the EU.
Second, don’t pander to populism, because, unchallenged, it has an appetite that can never be satisfied. The Scottish Labour Party’s demise began with losing an argument it didn’t make a quarter-century ago. As partisan support for Labour diminished, we continued to borrow votes from the Scots while losing their affection. For some in Labour’s ranks, that didn’t seem to matter. Although I wasn’t a leading advocate of that approach, it would be churlish for me not to accept my share of culpability. We should have made a case against the nationalist shibboleths about oil, the Barnett formula and defence much earlier, and then more often. Instead, we implied: “Aye, we know that’s what you think but if you vote SNP you’ll get the Tories.”
It's interesting how when it comes to Scotland, the Blairites say the reason things went wrong is because they failed to challenge the SNP's arguments robustly (giving the electorate a way out of their "false consciousness"), yet whenever anyone makes a similar argument about the English public having Tory economic views because Labour haven't challenged it, they dismiss it.
That's a shrewd point. Although it might be because they believe the Scottish voters are wrong and the English voters are right in their conclusions.*
*Before I get any abuse, just to be clear this is not MY view but I suspect it is the Blairite Labour view.
One segment of the population this poll and other polls seem to ignore is the one where people do not vote but are registered. A good third of the population are in the electoral register but do not vote. These people are not the ones not in the register.
Corbyn could attract many of these people. 5 - 10%. But pollsters systematically ignore them as they are considered unlikely to vote [ the records indeed indicate that ]
We went through this in May. Labour were basing their campaign on non-voters, it didn't work in May and it won't work in 2020.
Another point in defence of the Jezlamists and deselections
It's quite clear that the MPs want to nullify the members' vote as soon as possible. They will remove Corbyn in the next year or two, and not nominate another left wing MP so the members can not replace him with someone similar. Given that it the MPs who are the ones that are the aberration in the party, I think it's completely fair enough that the membership gets in at least 35 Corbyn supporters to the PLP, so they can make sure he gets renominated if he's stabbed in the back.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
Most committed 'inners' are ignorant little Englanders whose experience of the big world beyond our shores is limited to 2 weeks eating fish and chips on the Costa Del Sol every year and think that makes them experts on the benefits of the EU.
I thnk you for making my point - on cue.
(as a certain old fart said "they don'tlike it up them " and react predictably:-)
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
Most committed 'inners' are ignorant little Englanders whose experience of the big world beyond our shores is limited to 2 weeks eating fish and chips on the Costa Del Sol every year and think that makes them experts on the benefits of the EU.
I would imagine the Costa Del Sol is filled with Kippers and Out Voters, Inners are more likely to be in Tuscany!
One segment of the population this poll and other polls seem to ignore is the one where people do not vote but are registered. A good third of the population are in the electoral register but do not vote. These people are not the ones not in the register.
Corbyn could attract many of these people. 5 - 10%. But pollsters systematically ignore them as they are considered unlikely to vote [ the records indeed indicate that ]
Have you ever canvassed a non voter? You do get the "you are all the same", seasoned canvassers say theyve heard that claim long before Blair. And then you get the non voters, who quite frankly are not interested in taking part in the political process. Politics just passes them by, they might be aware of things theyve heard on the news or caught up on in some other way, but it is all in the periphery.
Have you ever talked about cricket to someone who is not interested, and never will be. No matter how important you think cricket is, they just do not care.
Another point in defence of the Jezlamists and deselections
It's quite clear that the MPs want to nullify the members' vote as soon as possible. They will remove Corbyn in the next year or two, and not nominate another left wing MP so the members can not replace him with someone similar. Given that it the MPs who are the ones that are the aberration in the party, I think it's completely fair enough that the membership gets in at least 35 Corbyn supporters to the PLP, so they can make sure he gets renominated if he's stabbed in the back.
The existing leader is automatically eligible without nominations, so I understand.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
Most committed 'inners' are ignorant little Englanders whose experience of the big world beyond our shores is limited to 2 weeks eating fish and chips on the Costa Del Sol every year and think that makes them experts on the benefits of the EU.
I thnk you for making my point - on cue.
(as a certain old fart said "they don'tlike it up them " and react predictably:-)
Nope I was just pointing out that ignorance tends to rest on the side of the Inners. Having spent a large part of my life working and living around the world both inside and outside Europe I simply believe I know a hell of a lot more about the big wide world compared to the armchair specialists like yourself.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
With all respect, this is not a very sensible way to decide a vote over the future of the country. Your vote should be on what is best for the UK long term, not on what group is more fashionable to be seen with.
One thing people don't seem to realise is that if we leave, it will not be UKIP determining policy afterwards, in the same way as the Lib Dems won't determine policy if we remain in. Should we vote for out, it will be David Cameron and his successor that negotiate the new trade deals with the EU and other nations.
This is the problem with letting a couple of hundred thousand entryists dictate the party leader for a mainstream party. Their opinions are not representative of the wider public or centre left. Labour have a long road ahead of them if they stick with Corbyn. Sadly I don't see how they will be able to ditch him with the same rules for leader present or the same membership as they currently have.
Corbyn received 49% amongst members in the first ballot !
This is the problem with letting a couple of hundred thousand entryists dictate the party leader for a mainstream party. Their opinions are not representative of the wider public or centre left. Labour have a long road ahead of them if they stick with Corbyn. Sadly I don't see how they will be able to ditch him with the same rules for leader present or the same membership as they currently have.
Corbyn received 49% amongst members in the first ballot !
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can! And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Most of the committed leavers I know are basically old farts who would support the BNP if it existed in a respectable form,, and are blinkered bores on the subject. I often think of supporting Leave - and then see /hear their rubbish.Very offputting. Make Alf Garnett appear enlightened.
With all respect, this is not a very sensible way to decide a vote over the future of the country. Your vote should be on what is best for the UK long term, not on what group is more fashionable to be seen with.
One thing people don't seem to realise is that if we leave, it will not be UKIP determining policy afterwards, in the same way as the Lib Dems won't determine policy if we remain in. Should we vote for out, it will be David Cameron and his successor that negotiate the new trade deals with the EU and other nations.
Indeed. The best way to get rid of UKIP once and for all is to leave the EU.
This is the problem with letting a couple of hundred thousand entryists dictate the party leader for a mainstream party. Their opinions are not representative of the wider public or centre left. Labour have a long road ahead of them if they stick with Corbyn. Sadly I don't see how they will be able to ditch him with the same rules for leader present or the same membership as they currently have.
Corbyn received 49% amongst members in the first ballot !
Mr. Dair, I do think Japan had a credible chance, but they made more mistakes and fell to pieces.
Agree on Scotland now being pretty good at try-scoring, whereas in the past they rarely did it.
Whilst I would've preferred a reasonable odds bet to come off, 'tis nice that Scotland are in a good position.
I think the next interesting match is England Vs Wales.
Well this evening Romania are still 50/1 with Paddy and a couple of others. At worst there should be a small profit on cash out when it's still close at half time.
The Saffers collected their tour expenses from the Japan game. Don't think these will repeat.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
'According to a well-placed source, she was certainly unimpressed by the title of Cameron’s first manifesto: ‘Invitation to join the Government of Britain’. ‘What is this? What is this?’ she spluttered on being shown a copy. ‘Invitation to join the Government of Britain? ‘People don’t want to join the Government of Britain. They want to elect the Government of Britain, for it to govern!” ’
‘I would never have gone into coalition with the Lib Dems,’ she told a small group of newly-elected Tory MPs invited to her house soon after the 2010 election. ‘What would you have done?’ asked one of the new backbenchers. ‘I would have done what I always did,’ Thatcher replied. ‘Win the election.’
In the 1990 leadership election Cameron pledged his loyalty to Hurd, Heseltine and Major, hedging his bets.
'As a highly thought of member on the political desk in the Conservative Research Department, Cameron was given the job in the 1992 election campaign of briefing John Major before each morning press conference. It was a career coup but one journalist was shocked by the way he threw his weight around. ‘I remember seeing this very young guy shouting at the Prime Minister, and thinking: “Who the hell is that?” I couldn’t believe the way he was speaking to him.’ A former colleague — no fan of Cameron — seconds this, but with grudging admiration. ‘That swagger, that self-confidence, was always there, but in the heat of the campaign, it was quite useful,’ he says.'
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
I'll go with that.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
Do you think Germany would declare war on us if we left the EU?
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
How long before the Daily Mail publishes more extract scoops about Dave's life, such as the toilet paper he uses and how he peed out of the window when he was at prep school. It can only be a matter of time.
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
I'll go with that.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
Do you think Germany would declare war on us if we left the EU?
I think there's a better argument that the EU is a threat to continental peace - it's not exactly dampening down the fans of nationalism with its migration policy blackmail at the moment.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
Hope they're enjoying it.
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
Hope they're enjoying it.
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
Will find out later, 25 points now. None of the other big hitters, England, South Africa, Australia or New Zealand have started that well and France are the only one yet to win a World Cup and are winning this by more than they won their first matches, S Africa even lost
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
I'll go with that.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
Do you think Germany would declare war on us if we left the EU?
No. What have you been drinking to come up with that thought?
And, just to remind you, IIRC we declared war on Germany. With just cause, of course, but they've never decalered on us.
‘I would never have gone into coalition with the Lib Dems,’ she told a small group of newly-elected Tory MPs invited to her house soon after the 2010 election. ‘What would you have done?’ asked one of the new backbenchers. ‘I would have done what I always did,’ Thatcher replied. ‘Win the election.’
Well, he managed it in the end, so who cares? The book really would have more bite if Cameron were not now a proven winner, but he is (albeit with all sorts of caveats around size of majority, opposition faced etc)
I must saying, when people start going for the 'What would Thatcher think/do?' stuff, my reaction is to assume they've got nothing of interest to say pertaining to politics as it is now, so unless this really is a set up for something big still to come, they really did lead with the biggest story and been struggling to find bits of interest since.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
Hope they're enjoying it.
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
Will find out later, 25 points now. None of the other big hitters, England, South Africa, Australia or New Zealand have started that well and France are the only one yet to win a World Cup and are winning this by more than they won their first matches, S Africa even lost
Romania are getting tired now. They thought they could be Japan but lack the discipline and coordinated technique.
Nevertheless, France have not been putting in what looks like a World Cup winning performance this year. I'm not a backer.
The Romanian guy's penalty kicking is utterly shite. He's nervous and massively overthinks and delays it - the net result is he just hoofs it randomly and hopes for the best.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
Hope they're enjoying it.
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
Will find out later, 25 points now. None of the other big hitters, England, South Africa, Australia or New Zealand have started that well and France are the only one yet to win a World Cup and are winning this by more than they won their first matches, S Africa even lost
Romania are getting tired now. They thought they could be Japan but lack the discipline and coordinated technique.
Nevertheless, France have not been putting in what looks like a World Cup winning performance this year. I'm not a backer.
France tend to perform best when the pressure is on and were finalists last time. Certainly nothing I have seen from the Southern Hempisphere nations or indeed England or the other Home Nations has wowed me either. France are certainly better than the 14/1 Ladbrokes have them, there is no point betting on New Zealand at 11/10 and England at 7/2, Australia at 7/1, Ireland at 9/1 and South Africa at 10/1 all have about the same chance as France https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/rugby-union/2015-world-cup/outright-betting/2015-rugby-world-cup/219898930/
‘I would never have gone into coalition with the Lib Dems,’ she told a small group of newly-elected Tory MPs invited to her house soon after the 2010 election. ‘What would you have done?’ asked one of the new backbenchers. ‘I would have done what I always did,’ Thatcher replied. ‘Win the election.’
Well, he managed it in the end, so who cares? The book really would have more bite if Cameron were not now a proven winner, but he is (albeit with all sorts of caveats around size of majority, opposition faced etc)
I must saying, when people start going for the 'What would Thatcher think/do?' stuff, my reaction is to assume they've got nothing of interest to say pertaining to politics as it is now, so unless this really is a set up for something big still to come, they really did lead with the biggest story and been struggling to find bits of interest since.
Indeed, but Thatcher was never Cameron's greatest fan, she preferred Davis or Fox
The young and the rich favour remaining in the EU at all costs. Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
I'm convinced. I'm just not sure the Leave campaign is at all where it needs to be. Time is running out.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Oh Goodness! Having seen the ruins of the bombing in Canterbury after the WW2 ended 10 years previously, I will always try and support peace in Europe. Yes, there will always be disagreements, who has not had arguments about what ever in their own families.
I'll go with that.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
Do you think Germany would declare war on us if we left the EU?
No. What have you been drinking to come up with that thought?
And, just to remind you, IIRC we declared war on Germany. With just cause, of course, but they've never decalered on us.
And your point is? That gives the Krauts the moral high ground?
‘I would never have gone into coalition with the Lib Dems,’ she told a small group of newly-elected Tory MPs invited to her house soon after the 2010 election. ‘What would you have done?’ asked one of the new backbenchers. ‘I would have done what I always did,’ Thatcher replied. ‘Win the election.’
Well, he managed it in the end, so who cares? The book really would have more bite if Cameron were not now a proven winner, but he is (albeit with all sorts of caveats around size of majority, opposition faced etc)
I must saying, when people start going for the 'What would Thatcher think/do?' stuff, my reaction is to assume they've got nothing of interest to say pertaining to politics as it is now, so unless this really is a set up for something big still to come, they really did lead with the biggest story and been struggling to find bits of interest since.
Rather like the memory of Reagan is now sacred to the GOP. He is tediously name-dropped at every opportunity in case the magic rubs off on to the second tier.
It's not just a habit of the Right though. The Democrats over there and Labour here would do the same if they had anyone of any stature to look up to.
Credit where credit is due to Dair. I backed Romania with a tenner at 80/1 and laid off at 38/1 at 20 mins in - got a risk free £400 profit if they win.
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
My father and sister are at the game, France look good, I may put a small bet on them for the Cup
Hope they're enjoying it.
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
Will find out later, 25 points now. None of the other big hitters, England, South Africa, Australia or New Zealand have started that well and France are the only one yet to win a World Cup and are winning this by more than they won their first matches, S Africa even lost
Romania are getting tired now. They thought they could be Japan but lack the discipline and coordinated technique.
Nevertheless, France have not been putting in what looks like a World Cup winning performance this year. I'm not a backer.
France tend to perform best when the pressure is on and were finalists last time. Certainly nothing I have seen from the Southern Hempisphere nations or indeed England or the other Home Nations has wowed me either. France are certainly better than the 14/1 Ladbrokes have them, there is no point betting on New Zealand at 11/10 and England at 7/2, Australia at 7/1, Ireland at 9/1 and South Africa at 10/1 all have about the same chance as France https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/rugby-union/2015-world-cup/outright-betting/2015-rugby-world-cup/219898930/
Comments
I find it baffling that parties periodically turn in on themselves to the extent that they effectively turn round and spit at the voters. Some self-reflection is always necessary after a defeat but to do that well it is not necessary to spit at voters like some deranged puff adder. And yet that's what they do. Most odd.
Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: Lean and mean!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
£1 and 4% comes to mind..
Less emoting, more hard thinking. That would be good.
https://twitter.com/JasonCowleyNS/status/646726673593933824
And l'm not a big statist.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/22/eu-referendum-state-public-opinion/
He's only managed to avoid being kicked out because he is the leader of the anti-pedophile crusade, but as time passes his immunity will diminish, unless he can produce an occasional sensation with his investigations.
"24 hours to save the NHS - vote Leave !"
I don't know that you really disagree. Aren't there some things in the Conservative Party which make you feel it's really desirable that they win, and which would make you lose heart if they abandoned them?
Interesting to note that the arguments most popular with pro-europeans are almost all false:
Leaving would mean business still must comply with EU laws but we would not have any say in settling them. (In reality Britain de-facto makes no input on EU laws or decisions anyway, Britain's voice is always ignored)
Being in the EU gives Britain access to a huge market for our exports, bringing jobs and prosperity. (In reality exporters cannot compete with German imports, costing jobs and bringing poverty to industrial areas)
Being in the EU allows Britons to work there, retire there and get free healthcare if they fall ill on their holiday. (In reality there are not many jobs outside of Germany, people could retire in europe before the EU existed and can do so after it ceases to exist, the healthcare bit is the only true fact)
Being in the EU attracts investment-global companies are based here because we are apart of it. (In reality most global companies come here because of relaxed financial regulations not just because of membership).
The solution would seem to be to make Leave warm, open-minded and positive about the UK and its future, paint staying in as very risky (status quo not an option) and get well-educated rational people to lead it. Farage should be kept well away.
Leave can't just rely on the EU repeatedly shooting itself in the foot over the next eighteen months.
I've seen nothing except assumptions and shouting.
The traditional taking the spare tyres out etc has just been fulminated about on C4 News, but that is not even chickenfeed.
The only ones voting against are the far-right FPO who are vastly ahead in the polls anyway.
What worked well in the indyref was having Yessers soft talking round waverers and weak No voters to Yes amongst friends, work colleagues and family. That's why it was 55:45 and not 65:35 as I thought it would be.
I'm not sure many Leavers (present company excepted) could do the same.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
"Committed leave supporters, while smaller in number than committed remain supporters, are also more vocal. 17% of those who are certain to vote to leave say they discuss the issue of Britain’s membership of the EU very often with friends and family, compared to just 6% of those who are certain to vote to stay."
If discussing with friends and family equals "carrying ad nauseam in the pub" then that's right. Many of us who listen to our local "Outer" just sip our pints and change the discussion to sport as soon as we can!
And when she's (in our case) gone we heave a sigh of relief, agree that she's off on one, and that we're well as we are.
Hyundai and Kia were fined nealry $1b a year or so ago for fiddling US fuel consumption stats.
So it does go on. And then there is teh EC fuel consumption tests open to all sorts of legal) distortions..
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/09/we-live-volatile-age-post-truth-politics-and-so-brexit-cannot-be-ruled-out
Yep, Sunil's finally cracked! ALIENS!
Jim should know about living in a post-Truth world, hee's been living in one for 20 years.
Now he's moved on to a post-Reality world.
Some interesting Murphy comments
'Jeremy Corbyn may not have one drop of Scottish blood but his campaign was laden with learning from Scotland’s referendum. So, what are the lessons from Yes 2014 and Jez We Can for the EU referendum? Failure to learn them might, just might, result in Brexit next year. We may not be able to count on Nigel Farage being an Alex Salmond – a useful, vote-losing villain – to help win this referendum...It will get personal. All campaigns attract an angry minority. But the other side’s minority will be bigger and fantastically noisier. The online treatment of the gutsy Liz Kendall as well as the bizarre anti-Semitism were vile. In Scotland, post-referendum passions are calming but remain strong. The greetings from strangers in the street sometimes still suggest that I’ve changed my first name to “Murphy” and my surname to “YaBastard!”.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/09/we-live-volatile-age-post-truth-politics-and-so-brexit-cannot-be-ruled-out
What is clear is that in EU ref the right will get their chance to be the populist rabble rousers
Whatever protestations he makes to being X, he gives all the impressions of being on the hardest of the hard stuff. All the time.
Another "positve" is the Working Time Directive. People complain about individual effects but overall support it. And don't trust employers not to abuse the situation if it wasn't there.
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150923/1027412583/russia-tanks-stealth-paint.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=canterbury&oq=canter&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j69i57j0.4190j0j4&client=tablet-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#q=Canterbury+bombed+photos+
Corbyn could attract many of these people. 5 - 10%. But pollsters systematically ignore them as they are considered unlikely to vote [ the records indeed indicate that ]
That's a shrewd point. Although it might be because they believe the Scottish voters are wrong and the English voters are right in their conclusions.*
*Before I get any abuse, just to be clear this is not MY view but I suspect it is the Blairite Labour view.
It's quite clear that the MPs want to nullify the members' vote as soon as possible. They will remove Corbyn in the next year or two, and not nominate another left wing MP so the members can not replace him with someone similar. Given that it the MPs who are the ones that are the aberration in the party, I think it's completely fair enough that the membership gets in at least 35 Corbyn supporters to the PLP, so they can make sure he gets renominated if he's stabbed in the back.
(as a certain old fart said "they don'tlike it up them " and react predictably:-)
Have you ever talked about cricket to someone who is not interested, and never will be. No matter how important you think cricket is, they just do not care.
'Scottish Tories Who Back Independence Will Be Asked To Leave The Party'
http://tinyurl.com/pn69ahf
One thing people don't seem to realise is that if we leave, it will not be UKIP determining policy afterwards, in the same way as the Lib Dems won't determine policy if we remain in. Should we vote for out, it will be David Cameron and his successor that negotiate the new trade deals with the EU and other nations.
Members <> £3 ers
You think Britain favoured confrontation and conflict in Europe from 1945 to 1973 by not being a member but playing a major part in NATO?
Also backed Romania + 36.5 points at evens with £20 and it now looks like I might collect on that. Not big money but good fun.
Thank you Dair. This site is always at its best when it focuses on betting.
'According to a well-placed source, she was certainly unimpressed by the title of Cameron’s first manifesto: ‘Invitation to join the Government of Britain’.
‘What is this? What is this?’ she spluttered on being shown a copy. ‘Invitation to join the Government of Britain?
‘People don’t want to join the Government of Britain. They want to elect the Government of Britain, for it to govern!” ’
‘I would never have gone into coalition with the Lib Dems,’ she told a small group of newly-elected Tory MPs invited to her house soon after the 2010 election.
‘What would you have done?’ asked one of the new backbenchers.
‘I would have done what I always did,’ Thatcher replied. ‘Win the election.’
In the 1990 leadership election Cameron pledged his loyalty to Hurd, Heseltine and Major, hedging his bets.
'As a highly thought of member on the political desk in the Conservative Research Department, Cameron was given the job in the 1992 election campaign of briefing John Major before each morning press conference.
It was a career coup but one journalist was shocked by the way he threw his weight around. ‘I remember seeing this very young guy shouting at the Prime Minister, and thinking: “Who the hell is that?” I couldn’t believe the way he was speaking to him.’
A former colleague — no fan of Cameron — seconds this, but with grudging admiration. ‘That swagger, that self-confidence, was always there, but in the heat of the campaign, it was quite useful,’ he says.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3245427/How-Cameron-pledged-loyalty-THREE-contenders-succeed-Mrs-T-thought-shallow-old-boss-Major-wouldn-t-him.html#ixzz3mawLlmrV
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
It can only be a matter of time.
Wasn't Maggie short half a pack by Cameron's election and nearly the entire pack by 2010 coalition?
But France only leading a team like Romania by 11 points at 60 minutes in is a poor show. They were lucky to get those two quick tries before half-time as well. They should be hammering them.
At one point it looked like Romania were about to go 10-3 up. If they had, this could have been a very different game.
And, just to remind you, IIRC we declared war on Germany. With just cause, of course, but they've never decalered on us.
I must saying, when people start going for the 'What would Thatcher think/do?' stuff, my reaction is to assume they've got nothing of interest to say pertaining to politics as it is now, so unless this really is a set up for something big still to come, they really did lead with the biggest story and been struggling to find bits of interest since.
Nevertheless, France have not been putting in what looks like a World Cup winning performance this year. I'm not a backer.
http://www.demotix.com/news/8576642/ukip-supporters-gather-glasgow-launch-union-day#media-8576696
Very well deserved. Also denies les blues an extra point, assuming Romania can hold another 7 minutes.
https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/rugby-union/2015-world-cup/outright-betting/2015-rugby-world-cup/219898930/
It's not just a habit of the Right though. The Democrats over there and Labour here would do the same if they had anyone of any stature to look up to.