Mr. Brackenbury, you don't get a choice. The enormo-haddock can't be stopped. If they see wrongdoing, whether that's a mugger, a chugger, or Ed Miliband chiselling nonsense into an obelisk, they'll strike.
Mr. Brackenbury, you don't get a choice. The enormo-haddock can't be stopped. If they see wrongdoing, whether that's a mugger, a chugger, or Ed Miliband chiselling nonsense into an obelisk, they'll strike.
Re the London mayoralty, if one of the candidates came out against the random, horrible demolition of happy pubs I reckon they could get quite a few votes.
I'm all for the free market but property developers are now hollowing out the city.
Now more than ever we also need someone who will take on the war mongerers. The future of national security is not dependent on who The Sun or Daily Express decide we should next be bombing.
You are talking crap, ISIS are enemies of the British State, traitors and murderers, rapists and thugs. They deserve everything they get. They wanted to play with fire, they will get burnt. I am sick to death of lily livered lefties bleating on trying to defend the rights of these murderers. We are at war with these evil men whose sole intention is to destroy our hard won freedoms and way of life
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more............
FPT @Charles It's not the PM I'm worried about, its the MoD. Fallon has been sounding a bit over-excited as well.
@Plato I have some sympathy with you over not wanting the discussion to continue. Hard to get the tone right I suppose at the bottom of my angst is a fear that we will stop being careful and proportionate and end up being less like the good guys I hope we are. It may well be necessary to kill terrorists. But I don't want us to enjoy it.
Read that Ros Altman has voted having been apparently privately a member of both Labour and Tory! There is something a bit dishonest of that and when the BBC bring on people like her on as supposedly `neutral` experts there should make some attempt to be transparent about their guests `political` associations
Presumably Ros Altman is anti UKIP, Lib Dem, Green and SNP.
Nah. She simultaneously supported Labour and the Conservatives while telling no one her true thoughts.
Mr. W, I think you'll find imposing the St. Crispin's Day speech is nothing short of patriarchal Judeo-Christian hegemony. Where's your commitment to multi-culturalism?
As for 'unto the breach': have you considered that your rightwing war-mongering might do more harm than good? Who's really on the side of the English: Henry V, who is putting their lives at risk, or Jeremy Corbyn, who wants a peaceful, negotiated settlement?
FPT @Charles It's not the PM I'm worried about, its the MoD. Fallon has been sounding a bit over-excited as well.
@Plato I have some sympathy with you over not wanting the discussion to continue. Hard to get the tone right I suppose at the bottom of my angst is a fear that we will stop being careful and proportionate and end up being less like the good guys I hope we are. It may well be necessary to kill terrorists. But I don't want us to enjoy it.
Can you refer to anywhere Cameron or any govt minister said they 'enjoyed' killing a terrorist? Maybe you need to clear your head before putting words into the mouths of others.
Re the London mayoralty, if one of the candidates came out against the random, horrible demolition of happy pubs I reckon they could get quite a few votes.
I'm all for the free market but property developers are now hollowing out the city.
Typical Tory - all for the 'free' market until the negative effects cease falling solely on other people. I know you aren't really a Tory anyway, just a drama queen. Join us.
It is anticipated that the demolition will be approved by the local Council, which is Southwark (Labour).
The alcohol on sale was probably offensive to both the puritan and religious wings of the left.
Mr. W, I think you'll find imposing the St. Crispin's Day speech is nothing short of patriarchal Judeo-Christian hegemony. Where's your commitment to multi-culturalism?
As for 'unto the breach': have you considered that your rightwing war-mongering might do more harm than good? Who's really on the side of the English: Henry V, who is putting their lives at risk, or Jeremy Corbyn, who wants a peaceful, negotiated settlement?
There was no proper risk assessment on the field of Agincourt. It was wet and muddy and very dangerous for horses and men. Also someone had left lots of sharpened stakes lying around just where someone was bound to trip over them!
Mr. W, I think you'll find imposing the St. Crispin's Day speech is nothing short of patriarchal Judeo-Christian hegemony. Where's your commitment to multi-culturalism?
As for 'unto the breach': have you considered that your rightwing war-mongering might do more harm than good? Who's really on the side of the English: Henry V, who is putting their lives at risk, or Jeremy Corbyn, who wants a peaceful, negotiated settlement?
ISIS do not understand peaceful negotiated settlement, they are men of violence who want to bring down the free world, they are terrorists, you can not reason with men like this, they only understand the language of the bullet, and through their evil beheadings, torture and rape have lost their right to be called British and free, for they do not represent the values of this nation, they are enemies of the UK and have brought judgment upon themselves through their evil deeds against innocent civilians, the world will be a better place without them.
On the subject of political approval for military action, I'd love to hear the outrage about the fact Maggie ordered a Polaris submarine into range of Argentina during the Falklands War in order to be able to threaten Cordoba with a nuclear strike if one or both carriers had been sunk and there was no other way to get the Argies out.
If it had leaked at the time, that is. Governments make plans, contingency plans and alternative courses of action all the time. Sometimes they are awful. On rare occasions they are even acted upon.
But they would be negligent in defending our interests to do anything else.
Those pb rightwingers, so out of touch they only have the full-throated agreement of 66% of the British population, while the bed-wetting lefty Scottish Islamists are supported by a mighty 11%.
ELEVEN.
A Corbyn lead Labour Party GE target to aim for then...
Mr. 30, reassuring nevertheless to see that the assumption by some (including me) here that the media are on another planet is borne out by the polling.
The Corbynites think that their man will be sufficiently different to appeal to a broader disenfranchised electorate, sick of parties that seem the same, run by smooth political figures. They will probably be right that the Labour Party will elect JC, but they won't get further. While the electorate as a whole may well be cynical about politics and politicians, Mr. Corbyn and all he stands for is not the solution. Why on earth did the other three Candidates not engage with the campaign until the eleventh hour?
Labour are making a historical and giant mistake.
The party is damaged whatever and whoever wins, but once Jeremy Corbyn becomes Leader they will really only be talking to their own echo chamber. The electorate won't be listening. Truly the culture of spin that Messers Blair, Mandelson and Campbell pioneered in the 1990s will reap its whirlwind...
The only question is where the first barricades will be erected, where the first direct action marches riots will take place. 'Anti Austerity-capitalist-warmongering-landlords for Peace' marchers. All organised by the democratic centralism of the New Socialist Labour Party.
You're probably right, but it isn't a recipe for Government, is it? There are many people who are going to be badly let down by Jeremy Corbyn and it isn't good that the main party of Opposition is being hijacked by the unrepresentative Trots. I couldn't stand Tony Blair, but you have to give him credit for leading labour to three election victories. Something the Corbynites / CIF lobby would like expunged from the record.
I'm still bemused that people are still trying to sell Liz Kendall as the "electable" candidate, when she went down even worse than Corbyn with those Newsnight focus groups of swing voters.
It's sad that she turned out to be Blair without the charisma with a higher degree of vacuousness. I had such hopes for her, but they turned out to be misplaced. Labour's gang of four are atrocious, there is a massive dearth of talent on the Labour benches.
Those pb rightwingers, so out of touch they only have the full-throated agreement of 66% of the British population, while the bed-wetting lefty Scottish Islamists are supported by a mighty 11%.
ELEVEN.
Can't wait to get the popcorn out on Saturday when Corbyn wins, Its going to be so much fun watching Labour self-implode. How low can they go 15% ? can they get down to Libdem levels of popularity. If Cameron et co don't screw up the next four years they will be heading for a historic landslide victory and labour will be finished
Those pb rightwingers, so out of touch they only have the full-throated agreement of 66% of the British population, while the bed-wetting lefty Scottish Islamists are supported by a mighty 11%.
ELEVEN.
Actually - the figures on refugees are even funnier - the luvvies at the BBC are gonna be aghast - after a whole week of sanctimony about opening the doors and letting uncle mohamed cobley and all in!
No wonder drone strikes are overwhelmingly popular with the public. They enable us to take out terrorists without risking the lives of troops. No brainer.
FPT @Charles It's not the PM I'm worried about, its the MoD. Fallon has been sounding a bit over-excited as well.
@Plato I have some sympathy with you over not wanting the discussion to continue. Hard to get the tone right I suppose at the bottom of my angst is a fear that we will stop being careful and proportionate and end up being less like the good guys I hope we are. It may well be necessary to kill terrorists. But I don't want us to enjoy it.
Can you refer to anywhere Cameron or any govt minister said they 'enjoyed' killing a terrorist? Maybe you need to clear your head before putting words into the mouths of others.
Did I say they did? It's you who are putting words into my mouth! Read the words, not what you think the words are.
That poll is absolute gold. Even with a massive margin of error, given that it is YouGov, it is clear that the British public are, as always, sensibly supporting the assassination of terrorists and don't want more immigrants.
I'm not surprised that the public support killing terrorists and other ISIS elements and being against more immigration, those are natural tendencies that even I subscribe too. And I'm a Corbyn supporter.
That poll is absolute gold. Even with a massive margin of error, given that it is YouGov, it is clear that the British public are, as always, sensibly supporting the assassination of terrorists and don't want more immigrants.
Many pundits ignore the common sense of the electorate... At their peril!
FPT @Charles It's not the PM I'm worried about, its the MoD. Fallon has been sounding a bit over-excited as well.
@Plato I have some sympathy with you over not wanting the discussion to continue. Hard to get the tone right I suppose at the bottom of my angst is a fear that we will stop being careful and proportionate and end up being less like the good guys I hope we are. It may well be necessary to kill terrorists. But I don't want us to enjoy it.
Can you refer to anywhere Cameron or any govt minister said they 'enjoyed' killing a terrorist? Maybe you need to clear your head before putting words into the mouths of others.
Did I say they did? It's you who are putting words into my mouth! Read the words, not what you think the words are.
Come off it - you said Fallon and the MoD were getting 'over excited' and then went on to say we should not 'enjoy' it. Pardon me if I cannot take you seriously.
What we should be is clear and determined in our efforts at fighting and defeating these quite horrible grotesque and mindless terrorists. I have not brought myself to look at the videos they have released and which people like SeanT have drawn our attention to but which clearly glory in barbaric killing. Yet you have the nerve you actually DARE to suggest we might be enjoying the deaths of some of the perpetrators?
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Those pb rightwingers, so out of touch they only have the full-throated agreement of 66% of the British population, while the bed-wetting lefty Scottish Islamists are supported by a mighty 11%.
ELEVEN.
Actually - the figures on refugees are even funnier - the luvvies at the BBC are gonna be aghast - after a whole week of sanctimony about opening the doors and letting uncle mohamed cobley and all in!
The BBC’s coverage of the immigration crisis has been woefully biased – every story photo captioned with mothers and children to illicit maximum sympathy , every story of economic migrants portrayed as deserving refugees.
I’m surprised they didn’t use ‘Climb every mountain’ to sound track the long march to Austria.
I'm still bemused that people are still trying to sell Liz Kendall as the "electable" candidate, when she went down even worse than Corbyn with those Newsnight focus groups of swing voters.
It's sad that she turned out to be Blair without the charisma with a higher degree of vacuousness. I had such hopes for her, but they turned out to be misplaced. Labour's gang of four are atrocious, there is a massive dearth of talent on the Labour benches.
Who was it who did not run then in order to mean she had to? Serious question, who else was or should have been the flag carrier for that part of Labour that is half way sane? I agree she is an unimpressive representative of her viewpoint.
Now more than ever we also need someone who will take on the war mongerers. The future of national security is not dependent on who The Sun or Daily Express decide we should next be bombing.
You are talking crap, ISIS are enemies of the British State, traitors and murderers, rapists and thugs. They deserve everything they get. They wanted to play with fire, they will get burnt. I am sick to death of lily livered lefties bleating on trying to defend the rights of these murderers. We are at war with these evil men whose sole intention is to destroy our hard won freedoms and way of life
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more............
To be fair, the HuffPo article on Corbyn is one of the most persuasive I've seen, as to why electing him might make sense for a sensible but desperate lefty.
However it carefully and deliberately ignores Corbyn's appalling record of fellow travelling with the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Chavez, Putin, Islamists, and his general and disgusting appeasement of all terrorists and tyrants (as long as they are anti-western).
And this stuff CANNOT be ignored. This stuff might destroy Labour for a generation, even if Corbyn will "enliven the policy debate". Labour are taking an incredibly big, stupid risk with the moral reputation of their own party, and the likes of "Doc" Palmer should be ashamed.
Well we are at peace with the IRA for 20 years now, Hamas and Hezbollah are an Israeli-Palestinian thing, no one has ever though that Chavez was any threat, Putin doesn't give a dime anyway about Britain and he's right wing, so the only thing that would bother me is the islamist thing. But you have already separate it from the palestinian issue, so there is not much left that bothers me of Corbyn's foreign policy associations.
''And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off. ''
Evidence the lib dems are finally learning to ditch the high handed sanctimonious attitude that led to their virtual obliteration at the ballot box in May.
That poll is absolute gold. Even with a massive margin of error, given that it is YouGov, it is clear that the British public are, as always, sensibly supporting the assassination of terrorists and don't want more immigrants.
A terribly written anti-immigration e-petition posted by a 17 year-old from Walsall by the name of Kieran Worrallo is picking up about 1,000 signatures an hour, and has now reached 112,786:
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
I have no compassion for terrorists. I have compassion for the women and girls they have raped, the families they have torn apart and the millions of people that have been displaced by their actions. If the government announced they had killed all overseas terrorists then it would be a moment to savour, not one to question.
Those pb rightwingers, so out of touch they only have the full-throated agreement of 66% of the British population, while the bed-wetting lefty Scottish Islamists are supported by a mighty 11%.
ELEVEN.
Except I haven't heard any of the left wingers express much disquiet about it either.
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Get off your high horse.
The LibDems for 2 decades were the most duplicitous of political parties. My family saw them operate in the West country, in the Summer country, in London and in Scotland. And senior members of the party adopted different and contradictory positions in each region, carefully tailored to what they thought would appeal to the local voters.
You really think we don't share information about interactions with politicians?
(As an aside, I respect individual MPs who did a good thing in 2010 in agreeing a coalition and serving the public for 5 difficult years. But the party itself is institutionally despicable)
I'm happy for us to hit ISIS and don't think taking unlimited refugees is a good idea, yet I also support Corbyn's attempt to bring labour back to a moderate social democratic platform. Funny old world isnt it?
I agree with every word and I voted exactly the same way. The problem is that it will all be academic if Corbyn wins. As he's a polling expert, I would have been more interested in Keiran's analysis of the chances of stopping Corbyn.
Corbynmania has ruined my summer and literally given me sleepless nights, and I don't see many ways out of the mayhem if he wins. A big, motivated organisation will sweep into power alongside him and start remaking the Labour party in their image. His supporters won't expect him to win - just to sit tight till they've secured the succession. I don't think Labour's moderates are brave enough to attempt a coup. The only scenario I can see in which Corbyn goes early is if he finds it all too stressful. But the thing is, a) politics is his life, and b) his supporters would tell him just to hang on till they're in a position to parachute in a replacement of their choosing.
So I desperately clutch at the straw that Cooper might win, and without that I see nothing but despair.
I'm not surprised that the public support killing terrorists and other ISIS elements and being against more immigration, those are natural tendencies that even I subscribe too. And I'm a Corbyn supporter.
But Mister Corbyn is already on record questioning the drone strikes and warning against blowback blah blah. He probably had high tea with these jihadists just last week.
How can you square your sensible attitudes with the odiousness of Corbyn's foreign policy positions?
I too can, and many others can question the legalities of drone strikes as a means justifying ends thing, but not many are bothered by the technicalities as long as the evidence that the crime committed is compelling.
It reminds me of the fuss that happened in america last year about drone strikes and the fear that the President or any other person of authority could use and abuse the same process against ordinary people.
In that I fully agree with Corbyn that a transparent legal way has to be constructed for such actions.
The Corbynites think that their man will be sufficiently different to appeal to a broader disenfranchised electorate, sick of parties that seem the same, run by smooth political figures. They will probably be right that the Labour Party will elect JC, but they won't get further. While the electorate as a whole may well be cynical about politics and politicians, Mr. Corbyn and all he stands for is not the solution. Why on earth did the other three Candidates not engage with the campaign until the eleventh hour?
Labour are making a historical and giant mistake.
The party is damaged whatever and whoever wins, but once Jeremy Corbyn becomes Leader they will really only be talking to their own echo chamber. The electorate won't be listening. Truly the culture of spin that Messers Blair, Mandelson and Campbell pioneered in the 1990s will reap its whirlwind...
The only question is where the first barricades will be erected, where the first direct action marches riots will take place. 'Anti Austerity-capitalist-warmongering-landlords for Peace' marchers. All organised by the democratic centralism of the New Socialist Labour Party.
You're probably right, but it isn't a recipe for Government, is it? There are many people who are going to be badly let down by Jeremy Corbyn and it isn't good that the main party of Opposition is being hijacked by the unrepresentative Trots. I couldn't stand Tony Blair, but you have to give him credit for leading labour to three election victories. Something the Corbynites / CIF lobby would like expunged from the record.
No mit is not a recipe for government and if ever this crowd were in government than it would be government by mob rule and trade union hegemony. The only answer if Corbyn is not to be immediately removed is for non Corbynites to remove themselves from the Labour Party, because they have lost; they have let the Trojan Horse in through the gate and it is sacking their Party. I absolutely expect the LibDems to start making appeals the moment the result is declared.
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Get off your high horse.
The LibDems for 2 decades were the most duplicitous of political parties. My family saw them operate in the West country, in the Summer country, in London and in Scotland. And senior members of the party adopted different and contradictory positions in each region, carefully tailored to what they thought would appeal to the local voters.
You really think we don't share information about interactions with politicians?
(As an aside, I respect individual MPs who did a good thing in 2010 in agreeing a coalition and serving the public for 5 difficult years. But the party itself is institutionally despicable)
Stop virtue signalling. You are neck deep in the most duplicitous political party in history.
I respect your opinion but I see that feeling isn't mutual. Never mind.
We expect Governments sometimes to do things that are the least worst option. I believe that was the least worst option. The worst option was to leave them free to murder, rape or plan more outrages.
Unless, of course, they were innocent British tourists who strayed off the holiday beaches?
Now more than ever we also need someone who will take on the war mongerers. The future of national security is not dependent on who The Sun or Daily Express decide we should next be bombing.
You are talking crap, ISIS are enemies of the British State, traitors and murderers, rapists and thugs. They deserve everything they get. They wanted to play with fire, they will get burnt. I am sick to death of lily livered lefties bleating on trying to defend the rights of these murderers. We are at war with these evil men whose sole intention is to destroy our hard won freedoms and way of life
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more............
To be fair, the HuffPo article on Corbyn is one of the most persuasive I've seen, as to why electing him might make sense for a sensible but desperate lefty.
However it carefully and deliberately ignores Corbyn's appalling record of fellow travelling with the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Chavez, Putin, Islamists, and his general and disgusting appeasement of all terrorists and tyrants (as long as they are anti-western).
And this stuff CANNOT be ignored. This stuff might destroy Labour for a generation, even if Corbyn will "enliven the policy debate". Labour are taking an incredibly big, stupid risk with the moral reputation of their own party, and the likes of "Doc" Palmer should be ashamed.
Well we are at peace with the IRA for 20 years now, Hamas and Hezbollah are an Israeli-Palestinian thing, no one has ever though that Chavez was any threat, Putin doesn't give a dime anyway about Britain and he's right wing, so the only thing that would bother me is the islamist thing. But you have already separate it from the palestinian issue, so there is not much left that bothers me of Corbyn's foreign policy associations.
There are none so blind...
And probably none that think that Hugo Chavez is a threat to the british public.
''But..but...Twitter..Guardian, BBC, Facebook, Yasmin Ali Baba.''
Now Paddy Ashdown weighs in against 72% of voters on Syrian refugee numbers.
Are these guys TRYING to lose votes?
Ashdown today (and yesterday) is a total, total d&ck.
He is trading on yesterday's politics which is appropriate as he is yesterday's man, if he ever was.
Still in the anger phase at how the British public could have got it all so wrong at the GE I bestow upon him Honorary Labour Leadership Candidate status.
Although I agree it's very amusing to see the disconnect between media and public opinion on the drones/refugees, I wonder why PBers are not always so up in arms about the media not reflecting public will on Austerity (the media including the BBC is pretty uncritical of it while opinion polls constantly show the public against it).
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Get off your high horse.
The LibDems for 2 decades were the most duplicitous of political parties. My family saw them operate in the West country, in the Summer country, in London and in Scotland. And senior members of the party adopted different and contradictory positions in each region, carefully tailored to what they thought would appeal to the local voters.
You really think we don't share information about interactions with politicians?
(As an aside, I respect individual MPs who did a good thing in 2010 in agreeing a coalition and serving the public for 5 difficult years. But the party itself is institutionally despicable)
Stop virtue signalling. You are neck deep in the most duplicitous political party in history.
The Tories are entirely transparent.
They are interested in governing in what they believe to be the best interests of the country. This requires being in power. They don't lie to anyone about their objectives.
I agree with every word and I voted exactly the same way. The problem is that it will all be academic if Corbyn wins. As he's a polling expert, I would have been more interested in Keiran's analysis of the chances of stopping Corbyn.
Corbynmania has ruined my summer and literally given me sleepless nights, and I don't see many ways out of the mayhem if he wins. A big, motivated organisation will sweep into power alongside him and start remaking the Labour party in their image. His supporters won't expect him to win - just to sit tight till they've secured the succession. I don't think Labour's moderates are brave enough to attempt a coup. The only scenario I can see in which Corbyn goes early is if he finds it all too stressful. But the thing is, a) politics is his life, and b) his supporters would tell him just to hang on till they're in a position to parachute in a replacement of their choosing.
So I desperately clutch at the straw that Cooper might win, and without that I see nothing but despair.
At some stage a lot of Labour members like Nick Palmer are going to put the catastrophe of the last election behind them, stop grieving, start thinking and realise what a horrendous error they have made on so many levels. It may take a while yet, but it will happen. Corbyn is just too poisonous for it not to. By and large we are talking about fundamentally decent people here.
Having been through all this before, I can't be bothered to wait and am happy to let Labour get on with it, perhaps re-engaging with the party in some way in the unlikely event that the next leader develops a set of policies that have some remote relevance to this century rather than the middle of the last one.
"The pragmatic cosy centrist consensus is being about to get an earthquake. It's not going to be an easy ride. Hell, there are even lots of cosy Labour MPs who are in for a shaking, but the article puts it very well. The political debate in Britain hasn't really advanced for 40 years. Thatcher won it back around 1983/4. Corbyn's about to challenge the status quo and I think that kind of cocksure public schoolboy grin we saw from Osborne yesterday is going to be wiped off a few faces. A massive shift in political debate, and therefore centre, is about to happen."
Estobar 15:41 8/9/15 PoliticalBetting.com
I think that post might become the most quoted bit of political prognosis since Sion Simon's masterpiece. So I thought I'd practice reposting it and make sure that it was tucked safely away in the Llama archives.
Interesting article apart from saying Burnham has been ' all things to all people'. What was Blair in his early years other than ' all things to all people' indeed Cameron was not much different either
Although I agree it's very amusing to see the disconnect between media and public opinion on the drones/refugees, I wonder why PBers are not always so up in arms about the media being so much more pro-austerity than the public are according to most opinion polls.
The media are the modern church and journalists are our vicars. They tend to preach moral virtue, so it's normal for them to support moral obligations like all humans should have the same rights regardless of nationality or affiliation.
Although I agree it's very amusing to see the disconnect between media and public opinion on the drones/refugees, I wonder why PBers are not always so up in arms about the media not reflecting public will on Austerity (the media including the BBC is pretty uncritical of it while opinion polls constantly show the public against it).
The BBC is very, very bad at what it does. How can you explain the support for the drone attacks and the wariness about allowing Syrian refuges into the country otherwise?
@adavies4: Saleem Kidwai, Muslim Council of Wales: People who knew Reyaad Khan say he didn't have intellect/charisma to pose such a big threat.
I thought he was described as a straight A-grade student?
Grade inflation....
It's the descent from "he was such a smart boy with such a great future, it's society's fault that he became a terrorist" to "he was an idiot who was easily led, no danger to us really".
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Get off your high horse.
The LibDems for 2 decades were the most duplicitous of political parties. My family saw them operate in the West country, in the Summer country, in London and in Scotland. And senior members of the party adopted different and contradictory positions in each region, carefully tailored to what they thought would appeal to the local voters.
You really think we don't share information about interactions with politicians?
(As an aside, I respect individual MPs who did a good thing in 2010 in agreeing a coalition and serving the public for 5 difficult years. But the party itself is institutionally despicable)
Stop virtue signalling. You are neck deep in the most duplicitous political party in history.
The Tories are entirely transparent.
They are interested in governing in what they believe to be the best interests of the country. This requires being in power. They don't lie to anyone about their objectives.
What objectives do other political parties have that they do lie about?
Although I agree it's very amusing to see the disconnect between media and public opinion on the drones/refugees, I wonder why PBers are not always so up in arms about the media not reflecting public will on Austerity (the media including the BBC is pretty uncritical of it while opinion polls constantly show the public against it).
FPT @Charles It's not the PM I'm worried about, its the MoD. Fallon has been sounding a bit over-excited as well.
@Plato I have some sympathy with you over not wanting the discussion to continue. Hard to get the tone right I suppose at the bottom of my angst is a fear that we will stop being careful and proportionate and end up being less like the good guys I hope we are. It may well be necessary to kill terrorists. But I don't want us to enjoy it.
Can you refer to anywhere Cameron or any govt minister said they 'enjoyed' killing a terrorist? Maybe you need to clear your head before putting words into the mouths of others.
Did I say they did? It's you who are putting words into my mouth! Read the words, not what you think the words are.
You are the only person I've seen referring to anyone 'enjoying it' - the implication was clear. People have been remarkably measured about the whole thing. give your angst a rest.
''But..but...Twitter..Guardian, BBC, Facebook, Yasmin Ali Baba.''
Now Paddy Ashdown weighs in against 72% of voters on Syrian refugee numbers.
Are these guys TRYING to lose votes?
Ashdown today (and yesterday) is a total, total d&ck. He is trading on yesterday's politics which is appropriate as he is yesterday's man, if he ever was. Still in the anger phase at how the British public could have got it all so wrong at the GE I bestow upon him Honorary Labour Leadership Candidate status.
Ashdown has the honour of being the worst organiser of a general election campaign. Losing 80%+ of your MPs is one hell of an achhievement.
Following the rules is what makes you the "good guys".
I understand that point perfectly well. But how to fight a war against an enemy which will not abide by any of the laws of war? That's the question I'm asking.
While we argue about legal niceties, IS are smuggling into Europe any number of operatives who will have no hesitation in carrying out the most bestial and brutal of attacks, unless we stop them. I want my government to focus on that. I suspect I'm not alone.
In the last ten years there has been one successful Islamist terror attack in the United Kingdom - the beheading of Lee Rigby. That itself was only the second successful Islamist terror attack in recorded history. Neither of which are directly related to ISIS
There have also been two failed attacks, both of which failed entirely due to the incompetence of the attackers. Neither of which are direcrtly related to ISIS.
That pales compard to the number of people killed by the IRA over a 40 years campaign.
And yet. We refused to give up our fundamental rights to the IRA and when governments capitulated to fear and on occasion broke the principles of decency and Human Rights, it was abandoned under public pressure (such as internment).
Yet despite this, you appear to be TERRIFIED of being murdered in your bed by ISIS and/or Islamic extremists who have virtually no historic of successful attacks and a strong record of incompetence. And for this you will give up not only your own rights but the principle that the United Kingdom is a beacon of democracy and respecter of Human rights.
It sickens me to see people cower in fear and allow their government to control THEM not terrorists by using the excuse of fear and threat which has never been realised to any meaningful extent.
And do you think anyone sane in the UK thought he was a threat before then? His only contact with UK I recall was offering cheap bus fuel for London.
No, of course no-one thought he was a threat to the UK. He was a hell of a disaster for Venezuela, though, achieving the remarkable feat of making the world's fifth-largest exporter of oil into an economic basket-case and presiding over an enormous surge in murderous crime. And of course like Corbyn he had some extremely unpleasant terrorist friends.
Not a role model whom Labour would be well-advised to point to, I'd say.
the only thing missing from this thread to make it complete was a sneer at the Lib Dems and Charles obliged.
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences. And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
Go straight back to Go and then onto the Vatican - do not collect £200 the pontiff will canonise you instead.
"The pragmatic cosy centrist consensus is being about to get an earthquake. It's not going to be an easy ride. Hell, there are even lots of cosy Labour MPs who are in for a shaking, but the article puts it very well. The political debate in Britain hasn't really advanced for 40 years. Thatcher won it back around 1983/4. Corbyn's about to challenge the status quo and I think that kind of cocksure public schoolboy grin we saw from Osborne yesterday is going to be wiped off a few faces. A massive shift in political debate, and therefore centre, is about to happen."
Estobar 15:41 8/9/15 PoliticalBetting.com
I think that post might become the most quoted bit of political prognosis since Sion Simon's masterpiece. So I thought I'd practice reposting it and make sure that it was tucked safely away in the Llama archives.
Well the high Tory strategists have considered a full frontal attack on Corbyn:
"The Tories will emphasize ‘security’ if Corbyn is victorious. Tories will say emphatically that the new Labour leader poses a risk to Britain’s economy and national security. Instead of laughing off Corbyn as a joke — a simpler strategy that has been considered— he will be recognized as a real threat and everything possible will be done to undermine him. “It’s deadly serious,” as one Downing Street source puts it."
But also they fear that Corbyn is going to blackmail Cameron over his support for IN over the EU referendum:
"Corbyn’s interest in the referendum would pose a problem for Cameron — one of his own making. If he is going to accept him as a serious and credible threat, he has little choice but to take his policy demands seriously, too. "
Comments
Will they remain Labour supporters within the big tent, or outside it pissing in?
Shimmery rhetoric but little content.
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more............
The PM makes the decision.
Must be a LibDem!
As for 'unto the breach': have you considered that your rightwing war-mongering might do more harm than good? Who's really on the side of the English: Henry V, who is putting their lives at risk, or Jeremy Corbyn, who wants a peaceful, negotiated settlement?
Stark evidence from YouGov about the pent up anger Escobar et al were referring to just a moment ago.
ROFL
The only regrettable aspect of the drone strike is that it only took out a pair of the lunatics.
Twitter will be aghast.
If it had leaked at the time, that is. Governments make plans, contingency plans and alternative courses of action all the time. Sometimes they are awful. On rare occasions they are even acted upon.
But they would be negligent in defending our interests to do anything else.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/09/08/public-approval-syria-drone-attacks/
To no one's great suprise.
But the Mogadon Pixie and the Andrex Puppy may take note. Jezza will, of course, ignore it as he knows better.
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/641260318031806464
Who'd have thought it?
The numbers on Syrian refugees are just as stark. A full 72% think the PM is either correct or taking too many.
Yvette Cooper and the commentariat are supported by 15%.
Incredible really.
Now Paddy Ashdown weighs in against 72% of voters on Syrian refugee numbers.
Are these guys TRYING to lose votes?
To be fair to the "lefty wankers", even they are strongly in favour of taking out our IS friends with drones.
I know a few people who think it's terrible ... that only two were killed.
I do feel a little sympathy for the family, though. Yes, I know, I'm a soft shite.
And I'm a Corbyn supporter.
What we should be is clear and determined in our efforts at fighting and defeating these quite horrible grotesque and mindless terrorists. I have not brought myself to look at the videos they have released and which people like SeanT have drawn our attention to but which clearly glory in barbaric killing. Yet you have the nerve you actually DARE to suggest we might be enjoying the deaths of some of the perpetrators?
Well done everybody. Glad you have all put the world to rights by deciding the best thing to do is to have no compassion, and no qualms, and that we can do what we want without worrying about the consequences.
And no, there isn't a punchline. You have properly pissed me off.
I’m surprised they didn’t use ‘Climb every mountain’ to sound track the long march to Austria.
Serious question, who else was or should have been the flag carrier for that part of Labour that is half way sane?
I agree she is an unimpressive representative of her viewpoint.
Evidence the lib dems are finally learning to ditch the high handed sanctimonious attitude that led to their virtual obliteration at the ballot box in May.
Not.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/106477
Well, it's a view
The LibDems for 2 decades were the most duplicitous of political parties. My family saw them operate in the West country, in the Summer country, in London and in Scotland. And senior members of the party adopted different and contradictory positions in each region, carefully tailored to what they thought would appeal to the local voters.
You really think we don't share information about interactions with politicians?
(As an aside, I respect individual MPs who did a good thing in 2010 in agreeing a coalition and serving the public for 5 difficult years. But the party itself is institutionally despicable)
The Einsatzgruppen came about because many ordinary German soldiers didn't fancy the job one bit.
Corbynmania has ruined my summer and literally given me sleepless nights, and I don't see many ways out of the mayhem if he wins. A big, motivated organisation will sweep into power alongside him and start remaking the Labour party in their image. His supporters won't expect him to win - just to sit tight till they've secured the succession. I don't think Labour's moderates are brave enough to attempt a coup. The only scenario I can see in which Corbyn goes early is if he finds it all too stressful. But the thing is, a) politics is his life, and b) his supporters would tell him just to hang on till they're in a position to parachute in a replacement of their choosing.
So I desperately clutch at the straw that Cooper might win, and without that I see nothing but despair.
It reminds me of the fuss that happened in america last year about drone strikes and the fear that the President or any other person of authority could use and abuse the same process against ordinary people.
In that I fully agree with Corbyn that a transparent legal way has to be constructed for such actions.
The only answer if Corbyn is not to be immediately removed is for non Corbynites to remove themselves from the Labour Party, because they have lost; they have let the Trojan Horse in through the gate and it is sacking their Party.
I absolutely expect the LibDems to start making appeals the moment the result is declared.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34183797
I respect your opinion but I see that feeling isn't mutual. Never mind.
We expect Governments sometimes to do things that are the least worst option. I believe that was the least worst option. The worst option was to leave them free to murder, rape or plan more outrages.
Unless, of course, they were innocent British tourists who strayed off the holiday beaches?
That should be a great big glass full of STFU right there.....
I agree, only idiots can join ISIS.
What's grown up is taking difficult decisions given that we cannot help everybody with everything - not letting our hearts rule our heads.
At the last election that's what the electorate told you. Grow up.
He is trading on yesterday's politics which is appropriate as he is yesterday's man, if he ever was.
Still in the anger phase at how the British public could have got it all so wrong at the GE I bestow upon him Honorary Labour Leadership Candidate status.
ISIS is top of that pile. Along with the Ku Klux Klan and the Westboro Baptist Church, some people just shouldn't be missed.
I don't particularly like it, but it's true. And these events only reinforce that.
They are interested in governing in what they believe to be the best interests of the country. This requires being in power. They don't lie to anyone about their objectives.
Having been through all this before, I can't be bothered to wait and am happy to let Labour get on with it, perhaps re-engaging with the party in some way in the unlikely event that the next leader develops a set of policies that have some remote relevance to this century rather than the middle of the last one.
Estobar 15:41 8/9/15 PoliticalBetting.com
I think that post might become the most quoted bit of political prognosis since Sion Simon's masterpiece. So I thought I'd practice reposting it and make sure that it was tucked safely away in the Llama archives.
They tend to preach moral virtue, so it's normal for them to support moral obligations like all humans should have the same rights regardless of nationality or affiliation.
"[Ruhul Amin] said, if he dies, he’ll be with Allah... He had no fear whatsoever of death. He was confident he was going to a better place.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11850076/British-isil-fighters-profiles-Ruhul-Amin-Reyaad-Khan-Junaid-Hussain.html
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/04/anti-austerity-voters-poll-jeremy-corbyn-labour
I suppose it depends on the question.
There have also been two failed attacks, both of which failed entirely due to the incompetence of the attackers. Neither of which are direcrtly related to ISIS.
That pales compard to the number of people killed by the IRA over a 40 years campaign.
And yet. We refused to give up our fundamental rights to the IRA and when governments capitulated to fear and on occasion broke the principles of decency and Human Rights, it was abandoned under public pressure (such as internment).
Yet despite this, you appear to be TERRIFIED of being murdered in your bed by ISIS and/or Islamic extremists who have virtually no historic of successful attacks and a strong record of incompetence. And for this you will give up not only your own rights but the principle that the United Kingdom is a beacon of democracy and respecter of Human rights.
It sickens me to see people cower in fear and allow their government to control THEM not terrorists by using the excuse of fear and threat which has never been realised to any meaningful extent.
Not a role model whom Labour would be well-advised to point to, I'd say.
http://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-labour-tories-uk-politics-cameron/
"The Tories will emphasize ‘security’ if Corbyn is victorious. Tories will say emphatically that the new Labour leader poses a risk to Britain’s economy and national security. Instead of laughing off Corbyn as a joke — a simpler strategy that has been considered— he will be recognized as a real threat and everything possible will be done to undermine him. “It’s deadly serious,” as one Downing Street source puts it."
But also they fear that Corbyn is going to blackmail Cameron over his support for IN over the EU referendum:
"Corbyn’s interest in the referendum would pose a problem for Cameron — one of his own making. If he is going to accept him as a serious and credible threat, he has little choice but to take his policy demands seriously, too. "
I can think of better places.