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There’s nothing erotic about going “to the mattresses”, as fans of the Godfather know.

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Indigo

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

No, they can't. Because of Article 8. Once a person is in the UK they claim asylum, then they appeal, this takes 2-3 years if their lawyer is creative, by which time they have settled, got a partner, maybe had a kid and we have no way of removing them no matter how unlawful their original way into the country. I agree if we could remove people who arrived under false pretences and who exploit and abuse the system it would be a lot easier to be generous to potential refugees, but as long as we are in the EHCR, we can't.

The_Apocalypse said:

Public tolerance for immigration has never been high - even in the 1930s/40s, when Jewish people were seeking refuge here you had publications such as the Daily Mail who were against it. There has never been a time in this country where people have loved/liked immigration.

Possibly, however a year or two ago the public had immigration about third on its list of concerns, in the low 20's percent, in the most recent survey it is first, and at or past 50%.

If this misery porn is flaunted a bit longer the public will probably drive the politicians into "doing something", then when they start feeling the increase in cultural dislocation and potentially other more serious side effects, that number will get worse. How high does that 60% get before UKIP get 50 seats in 2020, and heaven help us if any of these refugees turns out to be an ISIS sleeper.

Disraeli

FPT

"Posing as refugees: ISIS terrorists caught crossing into Bulgaria and then Europe"
http://www.standartnews.com/english/read/posing_as_refugees_isis_terrorists_caught_crossing_into_bulgaria_and_then_europe-9486.html

Bulgarian authorities near the Gyueshevo border checkpoint detained the five men, aged between 20 and 24, late on Wednesday, Bulgarian broadcaster NOVA TV reported.

The men were stopped by a border guard, who they attempted to bribe with a "wad of dollars." However, they were searched and Islamic State propaganda, specific Jihadists prayers and decapitation videos were found on their phones.

In a move that suggests how seriously authorities are taking the case, the Bulgarian State Agency for National Security (DANS) has now taken control of the investigation under the supervision of the regional prosecutor's office in Kyustendil.

RodCrosby

Sky: "humanitarian crisis" now unfolding on Hungarian train. Ambulances and helicopters arriving at scene.

SimonStClare

But alas, my papers are yet to arrive.”

Don, it sounds like you've been purged by Aunty Harriet...!

SimonStClare

And on a lighter note, take the test – How Jeremy Corbyn are you?

Result: - You are 5% Jeremy Corbyn – Hmm, it must have been the choice of head ware…!

http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Plato

A man and a woman were arrested here earlier today on Syrian terrorism plot charges according to Sky.

Disraeli said:

FPT

"Posing as refugees: ISIS terrorists caught crossing into Bulgaria and then Europe"
http://www.standartnews.com/english/read/posing_as_refugees_isis_terrorists_caught_crossing_into_bulgaria_and_then_europe-9486.html

Bulgarian authorities near the Gyueshevo border checkpoint detained the five men, aged between 20 and 24, late on Wednesday, Bulgarian broadcaster NOVA TV reported.

The men were stopped by a border guard, who they attempted to bribe with a "wad of dollars." However, they were searched and Islamic State propaganda, specific Jihadists prayers and decapitation videos were found on their phones.

In a move that suggests how seriously authorities are taking the case, the Bulgarian State Agency for National Security (DANS) has now taken control of the investigation under the supervision of the regional prosecutor's office in Kyustendil.

Indigo

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Disraeli

On topic:
"For Labour members and supporters there will be no let up in the blizzard of emails, tweets and phone calls."
Poor devils. This is why I don't join political parties any more.

DecrepitJohnL

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Remember in large parts of Africa there are no landline phones, so it is mobiles or nothing.

Disraeli

SimonStClare said:

And on a lighter note, take the test – How Jeremy Corbyn are you?

Result: - You are 5% Jeremy Corbyn – Hmm, it must have been the choice of head ware…!

http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Yikes! I got:
"You are 45% Jeremy Corbyn

Yeah whatever, you're Labour just not Corbyn Labour"

JEO

Chukka Umunna isn't take the part of Sonny Corleone, but Michael Corleone. He is doing just as much plotting behind the scenes, but pretending it's all great in public.

The Jezlamists are making a big mistake if they don't see this.

Sunil_Prasannan

SimonStClare said:

And on a lighter note, take the test – How Jeremy Corbyn are you?

Result: - You are 5% Jeremy Corbyn – Hmm, it must have been the choice of head ware…!

http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Dilettante!

You are 96% Jeremy Corbyn

Can you just check you're not actually him

flightpath01

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Do they get good connections? I hope they are aware of all the roaming charges.

SimonStClare

DecrepitJohnL said:

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Remember in large parts of Africa there are no landline phones, so it is mobiles or nothing.

If land lines are scarce over large parts of Africa, I’d expect cell-phone coverage to be tiny.

JEO

I see the UK has now paid the £1.7 billion that George Osborne pledged to have halved:

Britain quietly settled its latest altercation over the European Union budget by paying a 1.7 billion-pound ($2.6 billion) bill that Prime Minister David Cameron originally derided as “appalling.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/u-k-settles-eu-bill-once-called-appalling-by-cameron

This on top of giving up treaty change and giving up on a social chapter opt-out. They better get a good renegotiation, otherwise it's just been one surrender after another to Brussels from this government.

Sunil_Prasannan

JEO said:

I see the UK has now paid the £1.7 billion that George Osborne pledged to have halved:

Britain quietly settled its latest altercation over the European Union budget by paying a 1.7 billion-pound ($2.6 billion) bill that Prime Minister David Cameron originally derided as “appalling.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/u-k-settles-eu-bill-once-called-appalling-by-cameron

This on top of giving up treaty change and giving up on a social chapter opt-out. They better get a good renegotiation, otherwise it's just been one surrender after another to Brussels from this government.

Traitor Osborne!

Plato

5% Jeremy - The only thing you like about Corbyn is that it means the Tories will win again

Disraeli said:

SimonStClare said:

And on a lighter note, take the test – How Jeremy Corbyn are you?

Result: - You are 5% Jeremy Corbyn – Hmm, it must have been the choice of head ware…!

http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Yikes! I got:
"You are 45% Jeremy Corbyn

Yeah whatever, you're Labour just not Corbyn Labour"

The_Apocalypse

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I knew you'd bring up Australia. But Australia weren't facing the biggest crisis to hit Europe since WW2. The public have immigration high on their list of concerns right now because of the Calais crisis. But it's been a big concern for years - remember at one point, the BNP got a million votes in this country (2009 I think it was). A year ago, UKIP topped the polls in the EU elections. And a lot of people voted Tory in 2010 on the basis they'd be tough on immigration -and we of course had Bigot-gate. UKIP aren't going to get 50 seats in 2020, not in the least because in a vast majority of seats they polled second, it was by a distance. Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

AlastairMeeks

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

Pulpstar

JEO said:

I see the UK has now paid the £1.7 billion that George Osborne pledged to have halved:

Britain quietly settled its latest altercation over the European Union budget by paying a 1.7 billion-pound ($2.6 billion) bill that Prime Minister David Cameron originally derided as “appalling.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/u-k-settles-eu-bill-once-called-appalling-by-cameron

This on top of giving up treaty change and giving up on a social chapter opt-out. They better get a good renegotiation, otherwise it's just been one surrender after another to Brussels from this government.

Was the bill denominated in Euro or Sterling ?

AndyJS

Cooper may be value at 6 with Betfair:

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.103946886

DecrepitJohnL

JEO said:

Chukka Umunna isn't take the part of Sonny Corleone, but Michael Corleone. He is doing just as much plotting behind the scenes, but pretending it's all great in public.

The Jezlamists are making a big mistake if they don't see this.

Chuka needs actually to achieve something before the next contest, to get his name on the scoreboard, and that means joining the Shadow Cabinet. Otherwise he is just another man in a sharp suit. He ought to be studying the government to work out which Secretary of State looks easiest to bring down.

watford30

RodCrosby said:

Sky: "humanitarian crisis" now unfolding on Hungarian train. Ambulances and helicopters arriving at scene.

Wait until the next wave encouraged to come by Merkel, swamps Europe. They've lost control.

MarkHopkins

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

Here's the answer: you're not just "not Corbyn" - you're antiCorbyn.

Sunil_Prasannan

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

I just chose Downton, even though I never watched it either! Still, ended up 96% Corbyn!

Indigo

flightpath01 said:

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Do they get good connections? I hope they are aware of all the roaming charges.

I doubt any of them have ever left the country, many will have never gone farther than you can walk from their villages. Connections are good because basic cellphones are absurdly cheap. I have a cheap phone I use when I am in areas I think my better phone might get stolen, it cost a fiver complete with simm.

Most people buy small packages from their network called an "unli" like unlimited calls and texts on the same network for a day for about 14p. Cellphone credit is used as a currency in many out of the way places, when you buy something you can pay by sending some of your current phone credit to another phone, effectively a debit card for people that don't have bank accounts. Almost no one has a billed account, its all credit loaded from a scratch card or transferred from someone else when you have the available cash.

watford30

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

AndyJS

O/T:

Interesting article:

"Think of a situation where you had bulletproof facts, reason, and logic on your side, and believed there was absolutely no way the other person could say no to your perfectly constructed argument and proposal. To do so would be impossible, you figured, because there was no other logical solution or answer.
And then the other person dug in his heels and refused to budge. He wasn’t swayed by your logic. Were you flabbergasted?
This is similar to what many negotiators do when they sit down at the table to hammer out a deal. They come armed with facts, and they attempt to use logic to sway the other party. They figure that by piling on the data and using reason to explain their side of the situation, they can construct a solution that is simply irrefutable—and get the other party to say yes.
They’re doomed to fail, however, because decision-making isn’t logical, it’s emotional, according to the latest findings in neuroscience."

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

DecrepitJohnL

SimonStClare said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Remember in large parts of Africa there are no landline phones, so it is mobiles or nothing.

If land lines are scarce over large parts of Africa, I’d expect cell-phone coverage to be tiny.

No, when the phone company is starting from scratch, it is far cheaper to whack up some towers than to bury millions of miles of cables.

AndyJS

"Why Migrants Don't Want to Stay in  Hungary":

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/reporters-notebook/migrants/hungary-treatment-refugees?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Mr. JS does sound interesting. But not everyone's emotional that way.

In the Keirsey/Myers-Briggs personality system, I strongly suspect Rationals would be swayed by irrefutable arguments.

Indigo

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. L, indeed. Africa also leapfrogged the bank branch infrastructure and jumped straight to mobile banking.

The_Apocalypse

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

TheScreamingEagles

I'm 5% Corbyn - The only thing you like about Corbyn is that it means the Tories will win again

Sunil_Prasannan

https://twitter.com/chrisg0000/status/639132909706838016

logical_song

AndyJS said:

O/T:

Interesting article:

"Think of a situation where you had bulletproof facts, reason, and logic on your side, and believed there was absolutely no way the other person could say no to your perfectly constructed argument and proposal. To do so would be impossible, you figured, because there was no other logical solution or answer.
And then the other person dug in his heels and refused to budge. He wasn’t swayed by your logic. Were you flabbergasted?
This is similar to what many negotiators do when they sit down at the table to hammer out a deal. They come armed with facts, and they attempt to use logic to sway the other party. They figure that by piling on the data and using reason to explain their side of the situation, they can construct a solution that is simply irrefutable—and get the other party to say yes.
They’re doomed to fail, however, because decision-making isn’t logical, it’s emotional, according to the latest findings in neuroscience."

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

Yes, see also:
https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/living-in-denial/
and
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

philiph

The worst part of the migrant crises is that most of them haven't started their journey to Europe.

By dealing with the current influx (which has to be dealt with) you are creating a vacuum into which the next bigger batch will be drawn.

It is a never ending cycle which isn't sustainable.

I think the final solution proposed by Europe (I know I shouldn't use that expression) will be to create communities to include housing, factories and the other trappings of modern life in relatively safe countries close to the point of origin where migrants who make it to Europe are shipped to. I can not see any European country accepting ever increasing numbers indefinitely.

In the current system 1 million this year become 3 million next year and 5 million the year after. If the criminals involved (who no doubt are creating copious funds for terrorist organisations) have their way it will escalate to 10 million pretty quickly. It is in the interests of many people in the source countries to create the largest possible number of migrants to Europe.

It is foolhardy to deal with today without planning to cope with a bigger problem in the near future.

TheScreamingEagles

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

You mean you've never watched the West Wing, The Sopranos or The Wire?

I feel sorry for you. That's like saying you like music but have never heard any music by Queen.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

I'm 5% Corbyn - The only thing you like about Corbyn is that it means the Tories will win again

[swaggering] 96% for me, my man!

Indigo

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

flightpath01

JEO said:

I see the UK has now paid the £1.7 billion that George Osborne pledged to have halved:
Britain quietly settled its latest altercation over the European Union budget by paying a 1.7 billion-pound ($2.6 billion) bill that Prime Minister David Cameron originally derided as “appalling.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/u-k-settles-eu-bill-once-called-appalling-by-cameron
This on top of giving up treaty change and giving up on a social chapter opt-out. They better get a good renegotiation, otherwise it's just been one surrender after another to Brussels from this government.

I don't think there is anything quiet about it. It was announced at the time that £850bn, half the claim, was to be paid (in two instalments I think) interest fee in Sept 15. ie now.
The other argument was over whether a rebate was due.
http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2014/11/12/the-mystery-of-britains-e2-1bn-eu-budget-bill-explained/
Does this help?

Morris_Dancer

Dr. Prasannan, must correct that: once a refugee reaches a safe country and decides to keep moving, they become a migrant.

Plato

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Sunil_Prasannan

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Prasannan, must correct that: once a refugee reaches a safe country and decides to keep moving, they become a migrant.

Mr Dancer. Yes, you are quite right!

TheScreamingEagles

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

Disraeli

AndyJS said:

O/T:

Interesting article:

"Think of a situation where you had bulletproof facts, reason, and logic on your side, and believed there was absolutely no way the other person could say no to your perfectly constructed argument and proposal. To do so would be impossible, you figured, because there was no other logical solution or answer.
And then the other person dug in his heels and refused to budge. He wasn’t swayed by your logic. Were you flabbergasted?
This is similar to what many negotiators do when they sit down at the table to hammer out a deal. They come armed with facts, and they attempt to use logic to sway the other party. They figure that by piling on the data and using reason to explain their side of the situation, they can construct a solution that is simply irrefutable—and get the other party to say yes.
They’re doomed to fail, however, because decision-making isn’t logical, it’s emotional, according to the latest findings in neuroscience."

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

Interesting article.
However "The Camp Institute" sounds like something that Julian & Sandy would be running!
(Though they might call it "The Bona Negotiation Institute".)

The_Apocalypse

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Yes, but that's a small sample of people. I could easily point to the number of people who then go and give to Children In Need and Red Nose Day, for example.

AndyJS

Disraeli said:

AndyJS said:

O/T:

Interesting article:

"Think of a situation where you had bulletproof facts, reason, and logic on your side, and believed there was absolutely no way the other person could say no to your perfectly constructed argument and proposal. To do so would be impossible, you figured, because there was no other logical solution or answer.
And then the other person dug in his heels and refused to budge. He wasn’t swayed by your logic. Were you flabbergasted?
This is similar to what many negotiators do when they sit down at the table to hammer out a deal. They come armed with facts, and they attempt to use logic to sway the other party. They figure that by piling on the data and using reason to explain their side of the situation, they can construct a solution that is simply irrefutable—and get the other party to say yes.
They’re doomed to fail, however, because decision-making isn’t logical, it’s emotional, according to the latest findings in neuroscience."

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

Interesting article.
However "The Camp Institute" sounds like something that Julian & Sandy would be running!
(Though they might call it "The Bona Negotiation Institute".)

Whether or not someone supports large-scale migration is probably an example. People have their view on the subject and nothing will shift it.

JEO

flightpath01 said:

JEO said:

I see the UK has now paid the £1.7 billion that George Osborne pledged to have halved:
Britain quietly settled its latest altercation over the European Union budget by paying a 1.7 billion-pound ($2.6 billion) bill that Prime Minister David Cameron originally derided as “appalling.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-03/u-k-settles-eu-bill-once-called-appalling-by-cameron
This on top of giving up treaty change and giving up on a social chapter opt-out. They better get a good renegotiation, otherwise it's just been one surrender after another to Brussels from this government.

I don't think there is anything quiet about it. It was announced at the time that £850bn, half the claim, was to be paid (in two instalments I think) interest fee in Sept 15. ie now.
The other argument was over whether a rebate was due.
http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2014/11/12/the-mystery-of-britains-e2-1bn-eu-budget-bill-explained/
Does this help?

We didn't pay half the bill. We just paid the full bill. The EU asks us to cough up, and we do.

Charles

Haven't commented on the whole migrant situation as I've been in the MidWest catching up with old friends and making new ones, so it's been difficult to spend time on here

One point that no one has raised in respect of regionally located refugee camps is that they already exist in Jordan. Many of the Palestinians who fled in 1967 *still* live in the camps. They have refused (encouraged by the PLA originally) to integrate into Jordanian society, which has created a real issue for the Hashemites. We are now into the third generation of refugees *born* in the camps.

Clearly the whole right to return topic is much more complicated with Israel/Palestine, but it explains something of the reluctance of the local countries to establish permanent camps.

Indigo

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

I am glad at your stage in life you have such certainty, its a lesson to us all, sleep well.

Morris_Dancer

Ms. Apocalypse, small groups can cause large problems. cf Rotherham.

Speaking of which, businesses are getting tired of protest marches (there's another due by Britain First, apparently) which are, unsurprisingly, driving off business.

Not sure how many men have been arrested over the 1,400 plus rapes of girls and boys in care.

Also not heard any more furore about the taxi driver race issue there recently.

TheScreamingEagles

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

Alistair

SimonStClare said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

Indigo said:

RodCrosby said:

AndyJS said:

Interesting report in the WSJ:

"Allure of Wealth Drives Deadly Trek
Young Men in Senegal Join Migrant Wave Despite Growing Prosperity at Home"

http://www.wsj.com/articles/young-men-in-senegal-join-migrant-wave-despite-growing-prosperity-at-home-1434127244

As I said earlier, it's a sick version of the lottery, where almost all must be losers.

I notice they all have fancy mobile phones, which no doubt fuel their fantasies...

I was in province here as recently, mostly fishing villages and subsistence rice farmers, mostly on substantially less than what would be called absolute poverty. Surprising how many smart phones you see, even quite good ones. I enquired further, apparently people occasionally get a small windfall, a couple of months casual work in a nearby town, or a few hundred quid sent to them by a more successful relative in the city or working abroad. I had naively expected such money to be used to extend the house, or buy a bigger plot of land, but it seems smart phones are the preferred item to buy. I think its partly a status symbol, something to show to admiring neighbours who are less fortunate, and partly its a tangible connection to the modern world that makes them feel like they are moving with the times. Its also a good source of entertainment of course, but almost none of them can afford significant phone credit to buy internet access more than very occasionally.

Remember in large parts of Africa there are no landline phones, so it is mobiles or nothing.

If land lines are scarce over large parts of Africa, I’d expect cell-phone coverage to be tiny.

Mobile phones in 3rd world counties are one of the big success stories for both technology and free market capitalism in solving humanitarian problems.

The basic scenario is in the pre-mobile phone era

Farmer takes produce to market, taking produce to market expends effort and moeny. No commerical buyers turn up, produce wither and wastes in the sun

IN the mobile phone enabled world. Farmer phones market place and determines if buyers are there. IF so he takes goods to market.

It's capitalism at it's best.

taffys

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully).

Given what is going on in Syria every day, I think fear of a terrorist incident in Britain is perfectly reasonable, and not 'paranoid' as you suggest.

flightpath01

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

You mean you've never watched the West Wing, The Sopranos or The Wire?
I feel sorry for you. That's like saying you like music but have never heard any music by Queen.

No it does not. It just means he has a bit of discernment in his life. I have never watched them either although I have heard of them, like I have heard of Queen.

The_Apocalypse

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

I am glad at your stage in life you have such certainty, its a lesson to us all, sleep well.

I have to think like that because otherwise I'd be worrying myself to death all the time.

AndyJS

"EU Migrant Crisis 2015: 'No Limit' To Number Of Refugees Germany Will Welcome"

http://www.ibtimes.com/eu-migrant-crisis-2015-no-limit-number-refugees-germany-will-welcome-2075312

Pauly

TheScreamingEagles said:

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

He's not wrong - they may not be greedy but the parents are responsible.

Disraeli

JEO said:

We didn't pay half the bill. We just paid the full bill. The EU asks us to cough up, and we do.

No! No! JEO. You've got it all wrong. That's not how Britain's power relationship with the EU works.
"The EU asks orders us to cough up, and we do." (Fixed it for you).

We have to stay in though. Think of all the influence that we would lose if there was a Brexit.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

Hmmm... there was one in 2005, but it was October.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Kashmir_earthquake

Morris_Dancer

I've never watched those three programmes either.

However, I do have several tracks by Queen on my computer playlist.

AlastairMeeks

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

You mean you've never watched the West Wing, The Sopranos or The Wire?

I feel sorry for you. That's like saying you like music but have never heard any music by Queen.

I'm not a huge fan of TV generally.

JEO

I'm 45% Jeremy Corbyn, which suggests there's a flaw in the poll.

I also found it interesting that the Iraq War was either "the right thing to do" or "a war crime". That suggests the sort of black and white thinking that pervaders on the hard left.

Plato

You're missing my point. It was the reaction to the bombers = mainly offspring of Pakistanis as far as the callers thought.

They felt VERY strongly that these people had violated their rights to any help as a nation. If/when we get a terrorist incident here, there will be a massive kick-back against newly arrived from Syria et al.

I used to listen to several phone-ins a day as part of my PR job - they're a very good way to gauge the general level of public feeling if you know what you're looking for. It's only the second time I can think of when R5 abandoned their subject because of massive caller anger. The other was some totally tasteless voyeurism about a crime victim.

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Yes, but that's a small sample of people. I could easily point to the number of people who then go and give to Children In Need and Red Nose Day, for example.

TheScreamingEagles

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

Hmmm... there was one in 2005, but it was October.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Kashmir_earthquake

I know, I believe that one set a new UK record for donation appeals.

watford30

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

Eventually the numbers will stack against us, and something extraordinarily bad will happen.

Increased security at the tunnel railhead has forced desperate people to move further south and physically block railway lines. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there were armed incidents soon, law enforcement authorities exchanging fire with those intent on moving across Europe.

The_Apocalypse

taffys said:

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully).

Given what is going on in Syria every day, I think fear of a terrorist incident in Britain is perfectly reasonable, and not 'paranoid' as you suggest.

Okay, it was probably unfair of me to call it paranoid to think a terrorist incident will occur here by ISIS. What I should have said, is that we can't constantly be paranoid that it will happen all the time. We have to do our best in regards to national security, and all that we can to prevent these kinds of attacks. But some form of migration will happen, unless we decide to come out of the EU and shut our doors for the next two years.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. JS, Germany's thick as two short planks.

They're drunkenly, insanely, stupid.

Where shall we begin? The social problems, the drownings, the enriching of people smugglers (which include ISIS), the increased terrorism?

Cretins.

"There's a crisis of immigration! Let's encourage more!"

Pulpstar

Plato said:

You're missing my point. It was the reaction to the bombers = mainly offspring of Pakistanis as far as the callers thought.

They felt VERY strongly that these people had violated their rights to any help as a nation. If/when we get a terrorist incident here, there will be a massive kick-back against newly arrived from Syria et al.

I used to listen to several phone-ins a day as part of my PR job - they're a very good way to gauge the general level of public feeling if you know what you're looking for. It's only the second time I can think of when R5 abandoned their subject because of massive caller anger. The other was some totally tasteless voyeurism about a crime victim.

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Yes, but that's a small sample of people. I could easily point to the number of people who then go and give to Children In Need and Red Nose Day, for example.

But thre wasn't an earthquake anywhere near the time of 7/7 !

MrsB

OMG I'm 96% Corbyn.
http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

MikeK

Is Chuka Umunna the lick spittle, arse licking, greasy pole climbing sort of politician? I suspect that he is.

MP_SE

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

Turkey's security services have estimated that there are 3000 members of ISIS in Turkey waiting to cross into Europe. Merkel has signed a death warrant for many German people.

TheScreamingEagles

antifrank said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

You mean you've never watched the West Wing, The Sopranos or The Wire?

I feel sorry for you. That's like saying you like music but have never heard any music by Queen.

I'm not a huge fan of TV generally.

If you ever get the chance watch the West Wing.

Morris_Dancer

MrsB, you are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my free pair of overalls and little red book.

JEO

TheScreamingEagles said:

antifrank said:

I tried that Jeremy Corbyn quiz but then it asked me about six TV programmes, none of which I have ever watched. So I gave up.

You mean you've never watched the West Wing, The Sopranos or The Wire?

I feel sorry for you. That's like saying you like music but have never heard any music by Queen.

And Breaking Bad neither. It's like liking music but having never heard music by Queen, the Stones, the Beatles or Led Zeppelin.

Indigo

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

About three months after I believe ?

The_Apocalypse

Morris_Dancer said:

Ms. Apocalypse, small groups can cause large problems. cf Rotherham.

Speaking of which, businesses are getting tired of protest marches (there's another due by Britain First, apparently) which are, unsurprisingly, driving off business.

Not sure how many men have been arrested over the 1,400 plus rapes of girls and boys in care.

Also not heard any more furore about the taxi driver race issue there recently.

I haven't heard of the taxi driver furore. Small groups can cause large problems, but not all small groups will do this. We should let things like Rotheram make us review our policy of immigration, and how immigrants integrate in this country and adopt our values, but we can't let it make us fear every immigrant.

How frequent are these protest marches? And how many people go? I know Britain First has half a million likes on Facebook, but they didn't exactly storm the last GE.

Richard_Nabavi

TheScreamingEagles said:

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

Former LibDem. He stood for the LibDems in Thanet South in 2010 and was a LibDem councillor in Wealden and later Crowborough, where he was involved in some, ahem, colourful incidents.

MikeK

"In the New Statesman she says “I hear that tens of thousands of Labour party members, affiliates and registered supporters are yet to receive their ballot papers. And I am one of them. I can’t remember the last time I checked my post quite so religiously! But alas, my papers are yet to arrive.”"

Are you sure that your ballot papers will ever arrive Mr, Brind?
And a question: are you the Don of a Labour group, or is Don short for Donald?

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

You're missing my point. It was the reaction to the bombers = mainly offspring of Pakistanis as far as the callers thought.

They felt VERY strongly that these people had violated their rights to any help as a nation. If/when we get a terrorist incident here, there will be a massive kick-back against newly arrived from Syria et al.

I used to listen to several phone-ins a day as part of my PR job - they're a very good way to gauge the general level of public feeling if you know what you're looking for. It's only the second time I can think of when R5 abandoned their subject because of massive caller anger. The other was some totally tasteless voyeurism about a crime victim.

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

Yes, but that's a small sample of people. I could easily point to the number of people who then go and give to Children In Need and Red Nose Day, for example.

We could say that for any group. If a black person does xyz, will the public hate all black people for it? It says more about the society we live in, if people think that. But since this is being brought up, as a reason not to let in many of the refugees, then we can help in another way.

TheScreamingEagles

Indigo said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

About three months after I believe ?

Indeed, but the anecdote said the day after 7/7 plus an aside the perpetrators weren't identified until the week after, so there would be no way the audience would have known they were of Pakistani heritage.

I was in Madrid on 7/7 and in Spain for a few days after, was a very weird/interesting experience watching the Spaniards getting mystified how the English just carried on as normal and trying to explain to them that's the English/British mentality.

Plato

My point is getting lost - it was about the reaction of the public to it. I clearly have made a mistake about the date - but it stuck in my mind very clearly - it was in Oct 2005 not July, my bad.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

Pulpstar said:

Plato said:

You're missing my point. It was the reaction to the bombers = mainly offspring of Pakistanis as far as the callers thought.

They felt VERY strongly that these people had violated their rights to any help as a nation. If/when we get a terrorist incident here, there will be a massive kick-back against newly arrived from Syria et al.

I used to listen to several phone-ins a day as part of my PR job - they're a very good way to gauge the general level of public feeling if you know what you're looking for. It's only the second time I can think of when R5 abandoned their subject because of massive caller anger. The other was some totally tasteless voyeurism about a crime victim.

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

But thre wasn't an earthquake anywhere near the time of 7/7 !

The_Apocalypse

MP_SE said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

watford30 said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Indigo said:

FPT:

The_Apocalypse said:

People have travelled to Europe from Syria. Therefore, people will be risking their lives coming here no matter what we say. This idea that if we say 'NO' people will stop coming, is futile. We haven't even said 'yes' and yet many refugees are in Europe.

Hundreds of people used to drown trying to get to Australia. Now that they have introduced their new "tough love" policy and take all refugees to an offshore location to process their applications, care to guess how many people have drowned, in total ? That's right, none.

The_Apocalypse said:

Secondly, those involved in immigration and asylum can decide whether they feel there are enough grounds to conclude someone is a genuine refugee. They've been able to do that before, I presume after all - when an economic migrant could have pretended to be a refugee.

....

I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

One? How naive.

I didn't mean there would only be one literally. Just that I wouldn't be surprised if one was an ISIS sleeper.

@Indigo I'd hope there would be no terrorist incidents. But if we are so paranoid that's going to happen, then alternative ways need to be thought of to address the crisis.

I am sure the two ISIS people arrested in Bulgaria earlier today trying to cross the border were just coming to do a spot of sightseeing.

Paranoid in that a terrorist incident from ISIS in the UK will actually happen (our national security stops these kinds of incidents happening all the time, thankfully). But then in my previous post I did say: I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper.

Turkey's security services have estimated that there are 3000 members of ISIS in Turkey waiting to cross into Europe. Merkel has signed a death warrant for many German people.

Well, we'll see. Germany has historically in the post-war years been the recipient of a lot of immigration from Turkey, and as far as I'm aware Germany hasn't been bombed to blitz by one of them in recent history. I'm sure Germany's security services will make sure that 3000 ISIS members aren't all in Germany ready to bomb them all.

MikeK

MrsB said:

OMG I'm 96% Corbyn.
http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Changing your sex now, MrsB? That is If you are a woman.

TheScreamingEagles

Plato said:

My point is getting lost - it was about the reaction of the public to it. I clearly have made a mistake about the date - but it stuck in my mind very clearly - it was in Oct 2005 not July, my bad.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Plato said:

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Ah the certainty of youth Precisely how many terrorist incidents do you think will need to happen in the UK as a result of ISIS sleepers hiding in amongst the refugees (and economic migrants, lets not forget way more than half of the supposed refugee are no such thing) before the population take a very hard line indeed.

There was no earthquake in Pakistan the day after 7/7

Pulpstar said:

Plato said:

You're missing my point. It was the reaction to the bombers = mainly offspring of Pakistanis as far as the callers thought.

They felt VERY strongly that these people had violated their rights to any help as a nation. If/when we get a terrorist incident here, there will be a massive kick-back against newly arrived from Syria et al.

I used to listen to several phone-ins a day as part of my PR job - they're a very good way to gauge the general level of public feeling if you know what you're looking for. It's only the second time I can think of when R5 abandoned their subject because of massive caller anger. The other was some totally tasteless voyeurism about a crime victim.

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

The day after 7/7, R5 Live did a phone in on the tragedy of a massive Pakistani earthquake and asked if we were suffering from appeal fatigue.

The vast majority of callers were all THEY CAN EFF OFF and after about 25mins Nicky Campbell changed the subject. He seemed genuinely stunned that the response was so hostile.

It was fascinating listening.

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Even in this Syrian refugee crisis, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. Why? I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those refugees was a fake and was a ISIS sleeper. They've been trying to sneak into Europe for a long-time now, but we can't let them stop us from helping these refugees - whether we opt for your proposal, or letting refugees come here.

But thre wasn't an earthquake anywhere near the time of 7/7 !

You're missing the point the charity appeal for the Pakistani earthquake set new records, so the Great British public had no qualms about donating/helping out.

But I'll accept that you believe a few people on the radio are more representative of the British public than the lots of people who donated

MrsB

Morris_Dancer said:

MrsB, you are Jeremy Corbyn and I claim my free pair of overalls and little red book.

Overalls? Surely you mean creased white suit?

Am trying to take comfort in the fact that the 4% difference between me and Jezza is roughly the same as the difference between the DNA of human beings and chimps.

Indigo

The_Apocalypse said:

We could say that for any group. If a black person does xyz, will the public hate all black people for it? It says more about the society we live in, if people think that. But since this is being brought up, as a reason not to let in many of the refugees, then we can help in another way.

Like for example spending twice as much as all the other countries in the EU put together on aid on the spot and in neighbouring countries? That's what we are doing right now.

TheScreamingEagles

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

Former LibDem. He stood for the LibDems in Thanet South in 2010 and was a LibDem councillor in Wealden and later Crowborough, where he was involved in some, ahem, colourful incidents.

He stood for UKIP in Wimbledon in May.

The Lib Dems dodged a bullet there.

rottenborough

What happens if voting papers have still not arrived by next week?

Pulpstar

rottenborough said:

What happens if voting papers have still not arrived by next week?

You need to get in contact with Labour.
Now.

The_Apocalypse

Indigo said:

The_Apocalypse said:

We could say that for any group. If a black person does xyz, will the public hate all black people for it? It says more about the society we live in, if people think that. But since this is being brought up, as a reason not to let in many of the refugees, then we can help in another way.

Like for example spending twice as much as all the other countries in the EU put together on aid on the spot and in neighbouring countries? That's what we are doing right now.

Yes, and as I've said before that's clearly not enough, and we need a more extensive solution to the crisis.

The_Apocalypse

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

Former LibDem. He stood for the LibDems in Thanet South in 2010 and was a LibDem councillor in Wealden and later Crowborough, where he was involved in some, ahem, colourful incidents.

He stood for UKIP in Wimbledon in May.

The Lib Dems dodged a bullet there.

I thought LDs in general were all liberal on immigration. Quite shocked he used to be one tbh.

Morris_Dancer

MrsB, the creased white suit is only for the chairman! Overalls the uniform of the proletariat!

Mr. Eagles/Miss Plato, there's a danger in assuming there's a Borg-like 'public view'. It's entirely possible for some people to be very generous, and others to be very concerned/angry about the same subject.

Just look at the immigration debate.

Ms. Apocalypse, there's been significant racial tensions regarding the Gastarbeiter. Even leaving that aside, Turkey of decades ago is not comparable to ISIS of today.

Ms. Apocalypse (2), can't comment much more on Rotherham as I'm not from there, so I just hear stuff on the local news occasionally.

Mr. JEO, the Beatles are wildly overrated. Not bad, mind, but compare their best tracks to Queen's and there's no comparison.

SimonStClare

MikeK said:

MrsB said:

OMG I'm 96% Corbyn.
http://www.playbuzz.com/chris14/how-jeremy-corbyn-are-you

Changing your sex now, MrsB? That is If you are a woman.

MrsB is most certainly who she claims – perhaps the links provided on PB to her speech at conference wrt housing were before your time.

AndyJS

Bucklitsch just saved his deposit with 5.1% in Wimbledon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Elections_in_the_2010s

TheScreamingEagles

The_Apocalypse said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

What a vile, vile vile man

@bucklitsch: The little Syrian boy was well clothed & well fed. He died because his parents were greedy for the good life in Europe. Queue jumping costs

I'm as shocked as you are to find he stood for UKIP in May

Former LibDem. He stood for the LibDems in Thanet South in 2010 and was a LibDem councillor in Wealden and later Crowborough, where he was involved in some, ahem, colourful incidents.

He stood for UKIP in Wimbledon in May.

The Lib Dems dodged a bullet there.

I thought LDs in general were all liberal on immigration. Quite shocked he used to be one tbh.

You get fruitcakes, loons and racists in all parties.

MarkHopkins

rottenborough said:

What happens if voting papers have still not arrived by next week?

You don't get to vote.

http://show.nojam.com/a2sV/feature1.php?c=0&b=2