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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The way’s clear for Carly Fiorina to take on Trump directly

SystemSystem Posts: 11,723
edited September 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The way’s clear for Carly Fiorina to take on Trump directly in the next GOP debate on September 16th

One of the huge problems for US broadcasters is that so many people have declared themselves as contenders for the Republican party nomination. The current count is about 16 or 17 which clearly is far too big a number for a TV debate to be manageable.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2015
    First, like Trump...
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    DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    FPT
    malcolmg said:
    Pity no federal structure is on offer then


    No point creating a federal structure until Scotland has left the UK.
    Scottish departure is inevitable anyway.

    If you try to create it BEFORE Scotland leaves then you have to include Scottish input into the process - which is unwise since you don't want the influence of a member who is going to leave anyway. Plus it will need rework after "Screxit".

    If you create it AFTER Scotland leaves then you can just set it up for the interests of the remaining member nations.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Percentage of first 50 posts 'on topic' - I'm guessing <2%...
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Fourth
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    I suppose they would always have wanted to shake up the format a bit - more entertaining that way.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221
    I still think that website in her name is a classic.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    The PB preserve of Mike Smithson I believe ....

  • Options
    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
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    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826
    JackW said:

    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    The PB preserve of Mike Smithson I believe ....

    Surely in his case that's bold statements of truth. (Which also may or may not suit his betting position)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,028
    I'm following Mike in on this one, £20 @ 25.0 for me on Fiorina on Betfair. Looks a great price.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    I fear that Trump's toupees are breeding.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    JEO said:

    You would expect the odd poll to do this with the random variation.

    Not really, if we assume they are weighting back to the referendum result (and that switchers are relatively few).

    EDIT: it looks from the tables that they aren't. Curious.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Scotland/scotland-opinion-monitor-august-2015-tables.pdf
    They're only weighting for demographics which is indeed strange. But as the SNP Constituency and List votes are within the current band but very much on the low end, it is reasonably safe to take this Yes support as meaningful.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Those tribbles again

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4wM5KvUGEc
    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    I fear that Trump's toupees are breeding.
  • Options
    These detailed results are devastating for the unionist parties. Sturgeon has complete command of the political landscape as she moves to the anniversary of the referendum.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited September 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    I fear that Trump's toupees are breeding.
    Are you implying OGH has been in congress with Trump? .... :astonished:

  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826
    I too have backed Fiorina. I think she'd be a great candidate to run against Biden for example. She'll help anyway being in the running.

    I suspect she may well be able to tackle Trump too, but that'd be monumentally unwise at this stage for her. If she thinks she can clobber Trump then let the others do the hard work and wait for the right time to administer the killer blow.

    The slight difficulty is that her HP record is patchy. I rather think that it was a tricky task and she did quite well, but I know that's not a view shared by others. If she couldn't run HP then she certainly can't run the USA.

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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221
    edited September 2015
    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    tlg86 said:



    But if you get independence the SNP will vanish in a puff of logic...

    Nah. SNP and logic? Nah.
    More your failure to understand logic and how it works.

    The current price of oil is irrelevant because Scotland is not dependent on the price of oil to be a successful, prosperous country,.

    What does matter is what happened historically, where Scotland;'s Hydrocarbons generated massive amounts of cash both in private sector profits and government revenue. With profits a significant portion of that never benefited Scotland because the companies are HQed in London or internationally and the biggest benefit from the capital investment flowed overseas. For the government revenue it is trivial to demonstrate that it did not benefit Scotland at all, was sucked up by Westminster and spent on London.

    Similar cases can be argued for other successful Scottish industries like Whisky (where Diageo based in London sucks up most of the RoI as it owns 50% of the industry) and Life Science where the breakthroughs and benefits developed at Dundee, Aberdeen and Strathclyde are owned by the commercial partners based in London and overseas.

    This is the logic. It is irrelevant what future oil has. A good future means Scotland will lose out, a bad future makes no difference. But any successful future industrial success can expect the same outcome as has been seen historically - and that is not good for Scotland.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    scotslass said:

    These detailed results are devastating for the unionist parties. Sturgeon has complete command of the political landscape as she moves to the anniversary of the referendum.

    You can celebrate the loss.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    edited September 2015

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    We should just ditch Sussex.

    Give it to France.
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    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Plato said:

    Those tribbles again

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4wM5KvUGEc

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    First, like Trump...

    A bald statement of truth
    I fear that Trump's toupees are breeding.
    In Space, no one can hear you scream.

  • Options

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    If she couldn't run HP then she certainly can't run the USA.

    I hope you just mean that rhetorically. I can't think of many political leaders who could run a large tech company successfully.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826
    Dair said:

    tlg86 said:



    But if you get independence the SNP will vanish in a puff of logic...

    Nah. SNP and logic? Nah.
    More your failure to understand logic and how it works.

    The current price of oil is irrelevant because Scotland is not dependent on the price of oil to be a successful, prosperous country,.

    What does matter is what happened historically, where Scotland;'s Hydrocarbons generated massive amounts of cash both in private sector profits and government revenue. With profits a significant portion of that never benefited Scotland because the companies are HQed in London or internationally and the biggest benefit from the capital investment flowed overseas. For the government revenue it is trivial to demonstrate that it did not benefit Scotland at all, was sucked up by Westminster and spent on London.

    Similar cases can be argued for other successful Scottish industries like Whisky (where Diageo based in London sucks up most of the RoI as it owns 50% of the industry) and Life Science where the breakthroughs and benefits developed at Dundee, Aberdeen and Strathclyde are owned by the commercial partners based in London and overseas.

    This is the logic. It is irrelevant what future oil has. A good future means Scotland will lose out, a bad future makes no difference. But any successful future industrial success can expect the same outcome as has been seen historically - and that is not good for Scotland.
    All this stuff has been demonstrably good for Scotland. There is simply no reasonable comparison between London and Scotland. London is arguably the most important city on the planet. It's closer to (say) Calais than anywhere in Scotland, but the benefits of London's importance don't really show up in Calais other than in bad ways.

    Compare Edinburgh with York. Much the same.

  • Options
    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
    They don't have to take the migrants at all, presumably. This was about sharing the burden of refugees.
  • Options

    Omnium said:

    If she couldn't run HP then she certainly can't run the USA.

    I hope you just mean that rhetorically. I can't think of many political leaders who could run a large tech company successfully.
    Maybe that's part of the problem. Too many people thinking doing a PPE degree means they should be PM.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    We should just ditch Sussex.

    Give it to France.
    Ah, we could become Normans. There are worse fates. Like being tied into a region which includes Kent and Milton Keynes.

    It might actually work quite well, we get camembert and cider they get some decent wine and lamb.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
    They don't have to take the migrants at all, presumably. This was about sharing the burden of refugees.
    That's what I meant, sorry for the confusion.
  • Options
    Fantastic news! Go Fiorina! Hope some of you took my tip a couple of months ago.

    [End of trumpet blowing]
  • Options

    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:

    Tories used to moan about football matches, and think football was some evil thing as well once upon a time.
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Disraeli said:


    I think a lot more people will miss it when it is gone. And its break-up will have a major impact on perceptions of all parts of the former entity in other parts of the world. The PM who lost his country is going to spend a lot of time being pitied to his face and laughed at behind his back.

    OK, Southam, instead of carping.
    If you were PM what would YOU do to prevent Scotland leaving the UK?
    There's no way that Westminster can settle the Scottish Question and remain electable by voters in England.

    The only programme which would succeed would be : -

    1. Fully Federal UK with individual Nations holding vetos on all joint policy decisions in a Senate which replaces the Lords.

    2. An apology for the lies over oil since the 1970s and the pillaging of money to the South East.

    3. A waiver to Scotland over any contribution for the current UK debt, an agreement that the Federal Budget should always be in balance and for each devolved Nation to issue its own debt through the BoE.

    4. A subvention/reparation agreed to be paid to Scotland probably in the region of £5bn per annum currently, combined with a limit to Scotland's contribution to the Defense budget (about 1.2% of GDP would reasonably in line with neighbouring nations)

    5. Scrapping Trident.

    Anything less and it is certain the UK will be dissolved. Probably any one of those would make a Westminster party toxic with the English electorate who have lapped up the lies about Scotland for years.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    We should just ditch Sussex.

    Give it to France.
    Ah, we could become Normans. There are worse fates. Like being tied into a region which includes Kent and Milton Keynes.

    It might actually work quite well, we get camembert and cider they get some decent wine and lamb.
    I can see Le Marquis de Nabavi having the time of his life, all those wigs and powder. :-)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Dair said:

    Disraeli said:


    I think a lot more people will miss it when it is gone. And its break-up will have a major impact on perceptions of all parts of the former entity in other parts of the world. The PM who lost his country is going to spend a lot of time being pitied to his face and laughed at behind his back.

    OK, Southam, instead of carping.
    If you were PM what would YOU do to prevent Scotland leaving the UK?
    There's no way that Westminster can settle the Scottish Question and remain electable by voters in England.

    The only programme which would succeed would be : -

    1. Fully Federal UK with individual Nations holding vetos on all joint policy decisions in a Senate which replaces the Lords.

    2. An apology for the lies over oil since the 1970s and the pillaging of money to the South East.

    3. A waiver to Scotland over any contribution for the current UK debt, an agreement that the Federal Budget should always be in balance and for each devolved Nation to issue its own debt through the BoE.

    4. A subvention/reparation agreed to be paid to Scotland probably in the region of £5bn per annum currently, combined with a limit to Scotland's contribution to the Defense budget (about 1.2% of GDP would reasonably in line with neighbouring nations)

    5. Scrapping Trident.

    Anything less and it is certain the UK will be dissolved. Probably any one of those would make a Westminster party toxic with the English electorate who have lapped up the lies about Scotland for years.
    Certainly one of your more stupid posts, and against some considerable competition too.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
  • Options
    Dair Shove your sporran up your back end..you obviously drink the same home distilled hooch that the dimwit in Ayr drinks.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    kle4 said:

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
    They don't have to take the migrants at all, presumably. This was about sharing the burden of refugees.
    That's what I meant, sorry for the confusion.
    Not your fault. Most stories n this issue conflate the two, for differing purposes, do it's also bound to happen unintentionally. I'm sure I've done it myself.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826

    Omnium said:

    If she couldn't run HP then she certainly can't run the USA.

    I hope you just mean that rhetorically. I can't think of many political leaders who could run a large tech company successfully.
    Neither can I, but political leaders almost universally haven't got sufficient history that such a comparison can be made. Gordo couldn't run an ice cream van, but happily portrayed himself as some omniscient being of wisdom. Total clown yes but, given he'd not ever had the get-up-and-go to actually run an ice cream van then, the evidence was thin.

    Business success or failure though has to be a bad guide. Trump is successful, and it's blindingly obvious that he's not someone you want representing you.

    Commercial success translating into good public service is a pretty hard thing to find. Arnie?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    True, though they stuck to their support of FPTP all the time, bar a few individuals, so fair play to them. Playing the long game I guess.
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    Hm, got 38 on Fiorina a couple of days ago.

    As one of the Tims (T I think) said at the time, she had proven herself ready for the "top table".

    After trading in my Corbyn bet at 30/1, I'm tempted to let this run for a while.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    She was arguing that Labour's share of the vote increased by more than the Tories yet the Tories gained seats and Labour lost seats. This wasn't a partisan attack on FPTP (though I do think she is a Labour supporter), it was just a dumb assessment of what happened. As we all know in FPTP it's as much about where you get the votes as how many votes you get.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    Just finished a Yougov survey and for the first time I found it biased and almost childlike in its questions. How much do I love the BBC? a lot or ever so much? On immigration, how many should we take? Just hundreds of thousands or millions?

    If I didn't know better, I'd think it was a piss-take.

    Anyway, off to watch Horizon to see how childlike the BBC can make it.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Dair said:

    Disraeli said:


    I think a lot more people will miss it when it is gone. And its break-up will have a major impact on perceptions of all parts of the former entity in other parts of the world. The PM who lost his country is going to spend a lot of time being pitied to his face and laughed at behind his back.

    OK, Southam, instead of carping.
    If you were PM what would YOU do to prevent Scotland leaving the UK?
    There's no way that Westminster can settle the Scottish Question and remain electable by voters in England.

    The only programme which would succeed would be : -

    1. Fully Federal UK with individual Nations holding vetos on all joint policy decisions in a Senate which replaces the Lords.

    2. An apology for the lies over oil since the 1970s and the pillaging of money to the South East.

    3. A waiver to Scotland over any contribution for the current UK debt, an agreement that the Federal Budget should always be in balance and for each devolved Nation to issue its own debt through the BoE.

    4. A subvention/reparation agreed to be paid to Scotland probably in the region of £5bn per annum currently, combined with a limit to Scotland's contribution to the Defense budget (about 1.2% of GDP would reasonably in line with neighbouring nations)

    5. Scrapping Trident.

    Anything less and it is certain the UK will be dissolved. Probably any one of those would make a Westminster party toxic with the English electorate who have lapped up the lies about Scotland for years.
    The English don't like to perform the Kow-Tow.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    She was arguing that Labour's share of the vote increased by more than the Tories yet the Tories gained seats and Labour lost seats. This wasn't a partisan attack on FPTP (though I do think she is a Labour supporter), it was just a dumb assessment of what happened. As we all know in FPTP it's as much about where you get the votes as how many votes you get.
    Yes, it must be galling to be a leader who increases the vote share, but due to how the vote has distributed, done worse. I wonder what the greatest disparity between votes gained vs seats list is. Could Corbyn best that record?
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108


    ...
    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”
    ...

    Sounds fishy (as expected with the BBC these days). Isn't there an EDM street festival in Berlin that regularly pulls in a couple of million?
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    I haven't seen the program, but suspect she was talking about electoral bias, not winner's bonus, which has reversed its direction in the Tories' favour in 2015...
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098


    I can see Le Marquis de Nabavi having the time of his life, all those wigs and powder. :-)

    Thanks for that image, Mr. Brooke. I will never be able to read another of Richard's posts again in quite the same way as I used to. Le Marquis de Nabavi - it really is just too good.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Sean_F said:

    Dair said:

    Disraeli said:


    I think a lot more people will miss it when it is gone. And its break-up will have a major impact on perceptions of all parts of the former entity in other parts of the world. The PM who lost his country is going to spend a lot of time being pitied to his face and laughed at behind his back.

    OK, Southam, instead of carping.
    If you were PM what would YOU do to prevent Scotland leaving the UK?
    There's no way that Westminster can settle the Scottish Question and remain electable by voters in England.

    The only programme which would succeed would be : -

    1. Fully Federal UK with individual Nations holding vetos on all joint policy decisions in a Senate which replaces the Lords.

    2. An apology for the lies over oil since the 1970s and the pillaging of money to the South East.

    3. A waiver to Scotland over any contribution for the current UK debt, an agreement that the Federal Budget should always be in balance and for each devolved Nation to issue its own debt through the BoE.

    4. A subvention/reparation agreed to be paid to Scotland probably in the region of £5bn per annum currently, combined with a limit to Scotland's contribution to the Defense budget (about 1.2% of GDP would reasonably in line with neighbouring nations)

    5. Scrapping Trident.

    Anything less and it is certain the UK will be dissolved. Probably any one of those would make a Westminster party toxic with the English electorate who have lapped up the lies about Scotland for years.
    The English don't like to perform the Kow-Tow.
    I wonder if Scots do ?

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/nicola-sturgeon-s-secret-meeting-with-murdoch-1-3874663
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Mr G called me a liar on the last thread. I know it's a term of endearment amongst some up there; I would prefer it if you were not amongst them.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    She was arguing that Labour's share of the vote increased by more than the Tories yet the Tories gained seats and Labour lost seats. This wasn't a partisan attack on FPTP (though I do think she is a Labour supporter), it was just a dumb assessment of what happened. As we all know in FPTP it's as much about where you get the votes as how many votes you get.
    Yes, it must be galling to be a leader who increases the vote share, but due to how the vote has distributed, done worse. I wonder what the greatest disparity between votes gained vs seats list is. Could Corbyn best that record?
    The Tories got about 100k more votes than Labour in England in 2005 and ended up about 90 odd seats behind. As disparities go I doubt we will see that one beaten any time soon.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826

    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:

    Tories used to moan about football matches, and think football was some evil thing as well once upon a time.
    I walk a lot in London, and I walked into Notting Hill (visiting a friend)and back on Sunday. Sky is a far better report of the situation. The whole experience rather dampened my soul.

    I'd also note that there are quite phenomenal efforts put in by Westminster council to clean the streets up very quickly. I think it's an incredibly effective police tactic. Teams of people working hard to clean up after you tends to suggest that you shouldn't have been so messy in the first place.

  • Options
    Dair said:


    ...
    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”
    ...

    Sounds fishy (as expected with the BBC these days). Isn't there an EDM street festival in Berlin that regularly pulls in a couple of million?
    Evening Mr Dair - There’s certainly a huge Electronic and EDM festival in Berlin every year, however it’s more venue based than street party I believe. No idea of the numbers I’m afraid.

  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Dair said:

    Disraeli said:


    I think a lot more people will miss it when it is gone. And its break-up will have a major impact on perceptions of all parts of the former entity in other parts of the world. The PM who lost his country is going to spend a lot of time being pitied to his face and laughed at behind his back.

    OK, Southam, instead of carping.
    If you were PM what would YOU do to prevent Scotland leaving the UK?
    There's no way that Westminster can settle the Scottish Question and remain electable by voters in England.

    The only programme which would succeed would be : -

    1. Fully Federal UK with individual Nations holding vetos on all joint policy decisions in a Senate which replaces the Lords.

    2. An apology for the lies over oil since the 1970s and the pillaging of money to the South East.

    3. A waiver to Scotland over any contribution for the current UK debt, an agreement that the Federal Budget should always be in balance and for each devolved Nation to issue its own debt through the BoE.

    4. A subvention/reparation agreed to be paid to Scotland probably in the region of £5bn per annum currently, combined with a limit to Scotland's contribution to the Defense budget (about 1.2% of GDP would reasonably in line with neighbouring nations)

    5. Scrapping Trident.

    Anything less and it is certain the UK will be dissolved. Probably any one of those would make a Westminster party toxic with the English electorate who have lapped up the lies about Scotland for years.
    The English don't like to perform the Kow-Tow.
    Unless visiting Riadh.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,059
    Omnium said:

    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:

    Tories used to moan about football matches, and think football was some evil thing as well once upon a time.
    I walk a lot in London, and I walked into Notting Hill (visiting a friend)and back on Sunday. Sky is a far better report of the situation. The whole experience rather dampened my soul.

    I'd also note that there are quite phenomenal efforts put in by Westminster council to clean the streets up very quickly. I think it's an incredibly effective police tactic. Teams of people working hard to clean up after you tends to suggest that you shouldn't have been so messy in the first place.

    The type of person who thinks the Notting Hill Carnival is a vibrant celebration of our diverse culture are the same cretins who think farmers markets are full of working class postman buying locally sourced Pheasant Burgers at £8 a pop
  • Options
    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    She was arguing that Labour's share of the vote increased by more than the Tories yet the Tories gained seats and Labour lost seats. This wasn't a partisan attack on FPTP (though I do think she is a Labour supporter), it was just a dumb assessment of what happened. As we all know in FPTP it's as much about where you get the votes as how many votes you get.
    Yes, it must be galling to be a leader who increases the vote share, but due to how the vote has distributed, done worse. I wonder what the greatest disparity between votes gained vs seats list is. Could Corbyn best that record?
    The Tories got about 100k more votes than Labour in England in 2005 and ended up about 90 odd seats behind. As disparities go I doubt we will see that one beaten any time soon.
    Sure, but I mean for individual parties too - that is, labours share went up this time but the seats down, the same for the LDs In 2010. Has anyone, for example gone up 5% but lost significant seats
  • Options
    Omnium said:

    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:

    Tories used to moan about football matches, and think football was some evil thing as well once upon a time.
    I walk a lot in London, and I walked into Notting Hill (visiting a friend)and back on Sunday. Sky is a far better report of the situation. The whole experience rather dampened my soul.

    I'd also note that there are quite phenomenal efforts put in by Westminster council to clean the streets up very quickly. I think it's an incredibly effective police tactic. Teams of people working hard to clean up after you tends to suggest that you shouldn't have been so messy in the first place.

    The last time I went to the NH carnival was when I was about 10, so eleven years ago now. I enjoyed it, and didn't really see any problems going on. I don't know if anything has changed.

    And it is a carnival, so I'd expect it to be a bit messy with many people on the streets.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771

    Dair said:


    ...
    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”
    ...

    Sounds fishy (as expected with the BBC these days). Isn't there an EDM street festival in Berlin that regularly pulls in a couple of million?
    Evening Mr Dair - There’s certainly a huge Electronic and EDM festival in Berlin every year, however it’s more venue based than street party I believe. No idea of the numbers I’m afraid.


    I suspect he means the love parade.

    http://berlinloveparade.com/
  • Options

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
  • Options
    EPGEPG Posts: 6,079

    Spot the difference.

    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”

    SKY – “More than 300 people were arrested during the two-day Notting Hill Carnival, which saw a police officer stabbed and another bitten in two separate incidents.
    By late Monday, there had been 314 arrests at the traditional bank holiday festival, which was dogged by heavy downpours with almost an inch of rain falling.
    These were for a range of offences including assault, criminal damage, theft, carrying weapons and drug possession.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34109619
    http://news.sky.com/story/1544621/hundreds-of-arrests-at-notting-hill-carnival


    Jeremy Clarkson was spot on – now if this had been a football match…. :lol:

    Tories used to moan about football matches, and think football was some evil thing as well once upon a time.
    Back when Football = Northerners rather than Football = $£$£$
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221
    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Off Topic. Has anyone seen a programme on the Parliament Channel hosted at Nuffield College the week after the election? It features people like Kellner talking about the result of the election. There's a woman called Jane Green on it and she just said that Labour had a good campaign!

    EDIT: It gets worse! She's moaning that FPTP favoured the Conservatives. No **** Sherlock, it's called winner's bonus. She's a professor at the University of Manchester and yet she doesn't grasp this fundamental point of our electoral system.

    To be fair, the entire Conservative Party were convinced of a pro-Labour bias for the past dozen or so years.
    She was arguing that Labour's share of the vote increased by more than the Tories yet the Tories gained seats and Labour lost seats. This wasn't a partisan attack on FPTP (though I do think she is a Labour supporter), it was just a dumb assessment of what happened. As we all know in FPTP it's as much about where you get the votes as how many votes you get.
    Yes, it must be galling to be a leader who increases the vote share, but due to how the vote has distributed, done worse. I wonder what the greatest disparity between votes gained vs seats list is. Could Corbyn best that record?
    The Tories got about 100k more votes than Labour in England in 2005 and ended up about 90 odd seats behind. As disparities go I doubt we will see that one beaten any time soon.
    Yes, we didn't hear too much about how unfair that result was!
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    Has that bit of Panama where the Scots enacted their Darien Scheme been spoken for yet. They might like to have another go at it.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,059
    Too much! Too much!! No Mas!!! No mas!!!!
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11839841/Tony-Blair-admits-mistake-over-Scottish-devolution.html
    Tony Blair has admitted his government made a "mistake" by failing to do enough to ensure that devolution of powers to Scotland did not undermine the United Kingdom's national identity.

    The former Prime Minister insisted that he still believes he was right to create national assemblies in Edinburgh and Cardiff in 1999, arguing that resisting demands for the devolution of power would have stoked up demand for outright independence.

    But, in a new book entitled British Labour Leaders, he acknowledged that he did not understand at the time the importance of maintaining cultural unity between the different parts of the UK.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,912
    About a dozen Lab MPs I would like to see go.

    Mann, Danczuk, Kendall would top my list.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    Has that bit of Panama where the Scots enacted their Darien Scheme been spoken for yet. They might like to have another go at it.


    "Most successful project ever, hugely profitable

    Dair"
  • Options

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
  • Options

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    Has that bit of Panama where the Scots enacted their Darien Scheme been spoken for yet. They might like to have another go at it.
    Shhh... what the Scots don't realise is that on Independence Day they will suddenly realise that, due to momentary inattention during negotiations, they got to keep Northern Ireland
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:


    ...
    BBC – “Notting Hill Carnival bands have taken to the roads of west London for the second day of what is thought to be Europe's largest street music festival.
    Up to 60 bands in colourful costumes took part in the Grand Finale street parade. There are also 38 sound systems to entertain crowds.”
    ...

    Sounds fishy (as expected with the BBC these days). Isn't there an EDM street festival in Berlin that regularly pulls in a couple of million?
    Evening Mr Dair - There’s certainly a huge Electronic and EDM festival in Berlin every year, however it’s more venue based than street party I believe. No idea of the numbers I’m afraid.


    I suspect he means the love parade.

    http://berlinloveparade.com/
    That was indeed the one I was thinking of, I see it no longer takes place.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
    They were some dignified grey streaks. I could vote for a haircut that presidential.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Dair said:

    tlg86 said:



    But if you get independence the SNP will vanish in a puff of logic...

    Nah. SNP and logic? Nah.
    More your failure to understand logic and how it works.

    The current price of oil is irrelevant because Scotland is not dependent on the price of oil to be a successful, prosperous country,.

    What does matter is what happened historically, where Scotland;'s Hydrocarbons generated massive amounts of cash both in private sector profits and government revenue. With profits a significant portion of that never benefited Scotland because the companies are HQed in London or internationally and the biggest benefit from the capital investment flowed overseas. For the government revenue it is trivial to demonstrate that it did not benefit Scotland at all, was sucked up by Westminster and spent on London.

    Similar cases can be argued for other successful Scottish industries like Whisky (where Diageo based in London sucks up most of the RoI as it owns 50% of the industry) and Life Science where the breakthroughs and benefits developed at Dundee, Aberdeen and Strathclyde are owned by the commercial partners based in London and overseas.

    This is the logic. It is irrelevant what future oil has. A good future means Scotland will lose out, a bad future makes no difference. But any successful future industrial success can expect the same outcome as has been seen historically - and that is not good for Scotland.
    A delusional rant short on any kind of logic (what is presented as such is not), unsupported by fact and totally irrational. Touch a nerve and boom, watch 'em go.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,059
    edited September 2015
    Plato said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11839841/Tony-Blair-admits-mistake-over-Scottish-devolution.html

    Tony Blair has admitted his government made a "mistake" by failing to do enough to ensure that devolution of powers to Scotland did not undermine the United Kingdom's national identity.

    The former Prime Minister insisted that he still believes he was right to create national assemblies in Edinburgh and Cardiff in 1999, arguing that resisting demands for the devolution of power would have stoked up demand for outright independence.

    But, in a new book entitled British Labour Leaders, he acknowledged that he did not understand at the time the importance of maintaining cultural unity between the different parts of the UK.
    Another forecast Enoch was spot on with

    'When Labour won the 1997 general election, Powell told his wife, Pamela Wilson, "They have voted to break up the United Kingdom." '

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Plato said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11839841/Tony-Blair-admits-mistake-over-Scottish-devolution.html

    Tony Blair has admitted his government made a "mistake" by failing to do enough to ensure that devolution of powers to Scotland did not undermine the United Kingdom's national identity.

    The former Prime Minister insisted that he still believes he was right to create national assemblies in Edinburgh and Cardiff in 1999, arguing that resisting demands for the devolution of power would have stoked up demand for outright independence.

    But, in a new book entitled British Labour Leaders, he acknowledged that he did not understand at the time the importance of maintaining cultural unity between the different parts of the UK.
    Notably he doesn't actually say what form the Propaganda and Indoctrination would take. I can't really think of any (socially and culturally acceptable) way that could have made any difference.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,912
    kle4 said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
    They were some dignified grey streaks. I could vote for a haircut that presidential.
    I think beards look Prime Ministerial
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Plato said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11839841/Tony-Blair-admits-mistake-over-Scottish-devolution.html

    Tony Blair has admitted his government made a "mistake" by failing to do enough to ensure that devolution of powers to Scotland did not undermine the United Kingdom's national identity.

    The former Prime Minister insisted that he still believes he was right to create national assemblies in Edinburgh and Cardiff in 1999, arguing that resisting demands for the devolution of power would have stoked up demand for outright independence.

    But, in a new book entitled British Labour Leaders, he acknowledged that he did not understand at the time the importance of maintaining cultural unity between the different parts of the UK.
    No shit Sherlock Tony. You gerrymander two fiefdoms that you assume will be permanently Labour and the 85% in England just have to lump it despite it being bleeding obvious to anyone that problems would only remain suppressed whilst London, Edinburgh, and Cardiff shared the same political colour of government. You then arrogantly play the reserve team in the fiefdoms ( because that's all they deserve really innit?), and now your having a hand wring as it's all gone utterly and totally pear shaped. Fool.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108


    Has that bit of Panama where the Scots enacted their Darien Scheme been spoken for yet. They might like to have another go at it.



    "Most successful project ever, hugely profitable

    Dair"
    The idea behind the Darien Scheme was a very smart one. Indeed so smart that it is one of the major backbones of World Trade even today (and in the process of a massive expansion).

    The execution was quite woeful, naive and stupid.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,028

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    Who cares what the US needs !
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,826
    isam said:

    Plato said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11839841/Tony-Blair-admits-mistake-over-Scottish-devolution.html

    Tony Blair has admitted his government made a "mistake" by failing to do enough to ensure that devolution of powers to Scotland did not undermine the United Kingdom's national identity.

    The former Prime Minister insisted that he still believes he was right to create national assemblies in Edinburgh and Cardiff in 1999, arguing that resisting demands for the devolution of power would have stoked up demand for outright independence.

    But, in a new book entitled British Labour Leaders, he acknowledged that he did not understand at the time the importance of maintaining cultural unity between the different parts of the UK.
    Another forecast Enoch was spot on with

    'When Labour won the 1997 general election, Powell told his wife, Pamela Wilson, "They have voted to break up the United Kingdom." '

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell

    isam, what is it with you and Enoch Powell?

    I regard him as an often unfairly maligned politician (although often justly criticised too), but you seem to have him as your lodestone.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,217
    edited September 2015
    Disraeli said:

    FPT
    malcolmg said:
    Pity no federal structure is on offer then


    No point creating a federal structure until Scotland has left the UK.
    Scottish departure is inevitable anyway.

    If you try to create it BEFORE Scotland leaves then you have to include Scottish input into the process - which is unwise since you don't want the influence of a member who is going to leave anyway. Plus it will need rework after "Screxit".

    If you create it AFTER Scotland leaves then you can just set it up for the interests of the remaining member nations.

    Most polls post the general election have still had No ahead and Yes was ahead in Quebec in 1995 up until polling day and still lost, Scottish independence is far from inevitable. I remain of the view FFA for Scotland and a referendum on an English Parliament and Regional Assemblies is the best way forward for the Union but it may take a while to achieve
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
    I don't think Serbia will be taking many muslim refugees or migrants.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087

    kle4 said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
    They were some dignified grey streaks. I could vote for a haircut that presidential.
    I think beards look Prime Ministerial
    Not all beards - I suspect my goatee and neckbeard combo, the only beard I can grow, would not pass muster. Comrade Jeremy's is respectable enough though.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Dair said:


    Has that bit of Panama where the Scots enacted their Darien Scheme been spoken for yet. They might like to have another go at it.



    "Most successful project ever, hugely profitable

    Dair"
    The idea behind the Darien Scheme was a very smart one. Indeed so smart that it is one of the major backbones of World Trade even today (and in the process of a massive expansion).

    The execution was quite woeful, naive and stupid.
    betting the nation's wealth on living in a malarial swamp was smart ?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,217
    On Topic I think Fiorina will make the top debate and while she is unlikely to be nominee she could be a VP pick for a non-Trump nominee
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Is that hipster or aspirational Hell's Angel?
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
    They were some dignified grey streaks. I could vote for a haircut that presidential.
    I think beards look Prime Ministerial
    Not all beards - I suspect my goatee and neckbeard combo, the only beard I can grow, would not pass muster. Comrade Jeremy's is respectable enough though.
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Plato said:
    If they are genuine refugees, they would surely be happy to reach the nearest safe country and stay there?
    Most likely. But I think the idea of every country making a contribution is due to the fact that one country alone is not going to be able to take all those migrants. Especially those with their own economic problems, such as Serbia.
    Merkel invited them in, and Merkel has decided that everyone should carry the cost. It seems that we give nigh on twice as much aid as the rest of the EU put together, we are not in Schengen and I don't see why anyone should do what Merkel says just because Merkel says it. I mentioned in the last thread that Germany has as many Balkan immigrants as Syrian and will kick them out to make room for more Syrians - this from a German politician on the radio this morning.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    Who cares what the US needs !
    I thought a lot of PBers would care, given that those on the Right of British politics tend to be quite pro-USA.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited September 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    Who cares what the US needs !
    Fiorina spoke with passion and conviction.

    Her answer on "cyberwalls" was 100% verifiable bullsh*t. But on foreign policy she had an approach which was a good deal more internally consistent, and although I disagree, it was not badly explained in a limited format.

    I wasn't blown away, but some of the others were just dreadful.

    [Edit: you can see my comments in the original if you want to trawl back!!]
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    Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited September 2015

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    We should just ditch Sussex.

    Give it to France.
    Don't the French own Dover or something under some archaic law
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,087
    edited September 2015
    Plato said:

    Is that hipster or aspirational Hell's Angel?

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Fiorina was brutally sacked by the HP board. Trump is bound to utter " You're fired " in her direction during the debate.

    Tbh, Fiorina looks like someone with more style than substance. The US hardly needs that.
    She's restyled her hair from carrot orange to a Romneyesque black with grey/white sidelocks to look more Presidential.
    They were some dignified grey streaks. I could vote for a haircut that presidential.
    I think beards look Prime Ministerial
    Not all beards - I suspect my goatee and neckbeard combo, the only beard I can grow, would not pass muster. Comrade Jeremy's is respectable enough though.
    Just an experiment I run every now and then to see whether my facial hair offering remains as embarrassing as it was in my teens. Yes, as it happens.

    So, hipster probably. I have started wearing a hat in the past year as well.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,771
    Moses_ said:

    JEO said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    JEO said:

    I don't see why the UK would end if Scotland left. It was originally formed between a union of Great Britain and Ireland, yet it survived most of Ireland leaving. It can also survive a small chunk of Great Britain leaving. We can go on as the UK with a slight name change after the "of".

    Given it is two kingdoms , hard for the one left to be united unless it is with itself.
    Manchester, Leeds and Dundee are all united. Perfectly possible to be a United Kingdom after Scotland leaves. Indeed Scotland would cease to have any say in the matter at all...
    Can you explain your logic. Given Scotland would be independent any idiot would know it would not be part of the rump. The point was how could it be UK when one of the two kingdoms had gone.
    That's not the case. The two kingdoms which formed the UK were the Kingdom of Ireland and the Kingdom of Great Britain. Part of one Kingdom left in the 1920s and we remained the UK. If part of the other Kingdom leaves then we will still remain the UK.
    Indeed. We could be want we want to be it would be no one else's business.
    Alternatively we could give Wales independence and tell NI to sort out its own problems, then we would just be England and probably much happier.

    Mind, we would have to do something about those islands around the world that for whatever reason refuse to become independent. The Falklands would have to stay with the England and we ought to hang on to Gib. The Caribbean territories we could divide up - the Cayman's stay with England whilst Ireland, Scotland and wales can draw lots over the rest, though maybe Ireland ought to take the British Virgin Islands. I think there is a place or two in the pacific which still look to the UK (on one if memory serves they worship the Duke of Edinburgh as a god), if that is correct they should be given to Scotland. The islanders of St. Helena should be given a choice who to belong to. Any I have missed like Ascension, the Yanks can have, since they are probably there already.

    All this faffing about with a federal structure, forget it. HMtQ will probably be a bit miffed, though.
    We should just ditch Sussex.

    Give it to France.
    Don't the French own Dover or cleethorphes or something under some archaic law
    Pimlico :-)

    I'll get my passport.
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