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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s The Start of The New Football Season

SystemSystem Posts: 11,684
edited August 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s The Start of The New Football Season

The goal of Crowdscores is to crowdsource sports data. So, instead of buying offical data from Opta, we get fans at the game (or watching TV) to tell us what the score is, who scored etc. We’re getting a lot of traction with this model: more than 10,000 people use our app each week, and it is rated more than four out of five.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2015
    First! Will test at Leicester City vs Sunderland

    2 nil with Okazaki and Huth scoring for the foxes is my forecast.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    I thought this sort of thing got you kicked out of matches.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2015
    I know I've already replied, but Private Eye are going to love that one.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,770

    JEO said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    antifrank said:

    When was the last time that a politician so visibly diminished in an election campaign as Andy Burnham has? He might yet win but he looks much less credible as a leader than he did when the leadership election began.

    Portillo started the 2001 Tory race with over 100 nominations, he ended up third. Davis had almost the same in 2005 but after his conference speech collapsed. David Miliband was the overwhelming favourite in 2010 in terms of MPs declarations and early polls before he was overtaken by Ed. Burnham has not diminished as much as those 3 and he only became frontrunner when the previous frontrunner, Chuka Umunna pulled out
    I was watching come of the contemporary coverage of Cameron's win. It seems Davis' speech was only poor by comparison, rather than in absolute.
    Media coverage of it was very poor, especially by the likes of Tom Bradby for ITN
    I rewatched most of the Question Time debate.

    Cameron is the clear winner (particularly at the beginning).
    Though interestingly some polls had Davis winning the debate
    ConHome said later:

    "David Davis still won the Question Time debate. He demonstrated a superior grasp of policy and he crystallised the choice before party activists. After three Blair governments people were tired of the politics of spin. “Frankly,” he said, “this is the worst moment for the Conservative Party to imitate Tony Blair.” But he failed to break the love affair between the party and Cameron."

    Cameron beat the man, Davis won the ball.

    That much I would agree with.

    Perhaps the association with Blair is not poisonous to me rewatching as it was contemporaneously - Cameron has that similar air of pausing for a moment and coming out with something well composed.
    Indeed, historians will see the late nineties to the early 2020s as the age of Blair and Cameron
    I can't imagine Davis pledging to match Brown's spending plans, or letting UKIP getting to 13% in the polls.
    Or being PM for ten years!?

    When will people finally accept that Cameron was good for the Tory Party I wonder?
    In historical accounts perhaps, depending on how the next few years go. As Blair shows, no amount of winning elections will guarantee someone is seen as good for a party.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2015
    I have never been so glad to be a Protestant!

    Decision to show KP the exit is vindicated.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    I feel better about my (ahem!) brilliant comment about bowling two days ago. Broad has said he would have batted!
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    FPT 12:23PM
    STEM - horrid American acronym - can, and therefore should, pay for itself.

    University faculties that help us understand HUMANS, but that aren't in heavy demand by the private sector, like sociology and art, should be subsidised by the government.

    Apologies for my bleeding-heart arugula-chewing sneering-Islington dinner-party attitude, which I was convinced to adopt by the advocacy of Milton Friedman in "Capitalism and Freedom".
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The Ashes are won just in time for the start of the football season.

    I guess this means Kevin Pietersen's hopes of getting back into the England team are pretty much finished.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Ouch, from the Brisbane Courier Mail of 'medium pacer Stuart Broad' fame:
    One of the most disgraceful performances in the history of Test cricket didn’t need to end inside two days for Australia to be thoroughly humiliated once again, following another inept batting collapse.
    I feel the Australian press should stop going easy on their players, and say what they really think...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I thought this sort of thing got you kicked out of matches.

    The problem may well be that 3G reception at the King Power stadium is quite poor during matches, presumably due to the numbers using. A text is quicker.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    [spies on Scrapheap's fpl team]
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    A good read and somewhat relevant to this thread: Why tennis 'courtsiding' was my dream job

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32402945

    Gamblers keen to get an edge over their rivals, have taken to employing "courtsiders", who send back live data to syndicates and betting companies while a game is under way. Last year a British man became the first person to be arrested while engaged in the practice, at the Australian Open tennis tournament.

    For Dan Dobson it was a dream job. Still only 22 years old, he got to travel the world with some friends, earn a decent salary and watch top-level tennis.

    He was not just a spectator though, he had to send back live data to the gambling syndicate he worked for, as each player scored a point.

    To do this he used a simple device hidden inside his shorts.

    "You would sit on court for as long as you were needed pressing the buttons, which were sewn into my trousers and relay the scores back to London. You'd press one for Djokovic, two for Murray, for example, as fast as you could," he says.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    To do with cricket, rather than football, but as Notts collapse in a heap a certain Alex Hales has scored an unbeaten 76. Given Lyth's problems, maybe he's finding form at the right time?
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    ydoethur said:

    To do with cricket, rather than football, but as Notts collapse in a heap a certain Alex Hales has scored an unbeaten 76. Given Lyth's problems, maybe he's finding form at the right time?

    And Ballance hit 200 or whatever after being taken out the side.

    Never has the difference between club and country seemed so big.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    FPT on Morley and Outwood
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    Ed Balls lost this year because he refused to chicken-run away from a negative constituency redrawing in 2005-10, while his wife held the adjacent safe seat constructed in a small part from his old wards. His successor Andrea Jenkyns is probably facing a similar scenario, come the next redistribution, without the constraints of marital propriety on using one's leverage to find a safe seat.

    Didn't Ed Balls go to great lengths to get Colin Challen to stand down so he could stand in a seat next to his wife's, after his own seat had been split about three ways?

    It should also be noted that prior to the election Morley and Outwood was considered a safe Labour seat - it wasn't put on CCO's target list until the campaign itself, and Anthony Calvert had to do most of his own fundraising (which he did very successfully by offering to 'castrate Balls').

    Mr. Doethur, Morley & Outwood as a notional 10,000 Labour majority in 2010, though Balls whittled that down to 1,000, and then about -450 in 2015.

    The notional result was silly. It involved thousands of votes for non-existent Independents. Well, they existed at local level, but like other council "independents" throughout England, they were Conservative-minded at general elections. The true notional majority should have been around 5,000.
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    flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    FPT
    Mr Herdson's comments about labours left leaning constituency association selecting hundreds of candidates for 2020 are well made. Labour's problems do not end with Corbyn not being elected leader.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    A good read and somewhat relevant to this thread: Why tennis 'courtsiding' was my dream job

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32402945


    Gamblers keen to get an edge over their rivals, have taken to employing "courtsiders", who send back live data to syndicates and betting companies while a game is under way. Last year a British man became the first person to be arrested while engaged in the practice, at the Australian Open tennis tournament.

    For Dan Dobson it was a dream job. Still only 22 years old, he got to travel the world with some friends, earn a decent salary and watch top-level tennis.

    He was not just a spectator though, he had to send back live data to the gambling syndicate he worked for, as each player scored a point.

    To do this he used a simple device hidden inside his shorts.

    "You would sit on court for as long as you were needed pressing the buttons, which were sewn into my trousers and relay the scores back to London. You'd press one for Djokovic, two for Murray, for example, as fast as you could," he says.

    It's very simple protectionism.

    The guy from the tennis association was saying that courtsiding should be criminialised (it's just a breach of T&Cs at the moment.

    The motive: they want to keep ownership of the data themselves and sell it.

    I wonder (IANAL) if they are in breach of anti-trust regulation by restricting access to publicly available information to enforce monopolistic pricing?
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Lovely BBC video piece on dry stone walls. Proper Yorkshire accent too. Cracking.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33819675
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    ydoethur said:

    To do with cricket, rather than football, but as Notts collapse in a heap a certain Alex Hales has scored an unbeaten 76. Given Lyth's problems, maybe he's finding form at the right time?

    And Ballance hit 200 or whatever after being taken out the side.

    Never has the difference between club and country seemed so big.
    Has he played FC games since being dropped? I thought there had only been one day stuff until this week, where he scored 11 runs in 2 innings against Durham.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Charles said:

    A good read and somewhat relevant to this thread: Why tennis 'courtsiding' was my dream job

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32402945


    Gamblers keen to get an edge over their rivals, have taken to employing "courtsiders", who send back live data to syndicates and betting companies while a game is under way. Last year a British man became the first person to be arrested while engaged in the practice, at the Australian Open tennis tournament.

    For Dan Dobson it was a dream job. Still only 22 years old, he got to travel the world with some friends, earn a decent salary and watch top-level tennis.

    He was not just a spectator though, he had to send back live data to the gambling syndicate he worked for, as each player scored a point.

    To do this he used a simple device hidden inside his shorts.

    "You would sit on court for as long as you were needed pressing the buttons, which were sewn into my trousers and relay the scores back to London. You'd press one for Djokovic, two for Murray, for example, as fast as you could," he says.

    It's very simple protectionism.

    The guy from the tennis association was saying that courtsiding should be criminialised (it's just a breach of T&Cs at the moment.

    The motive: they want to keep ownership of the data themselves and sell it.

    I wonder (IANAL) if they are in breach of anti-trust regulation by restricting access to publicly available information to enforce monopolistic pricing?

    The concept of "ownership" of data of public events is an interesting one that I confess I don't know as much about as I probably should.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    EPG said:

    FPT on Morley and Outwood
    The notional result was silly. It involved thousands of votes for non-existent Independents. Well, they existed at local level, but like other council "independents" throughout England, they were Conservative-minded at general elections. The true notional majority should have been around 5,000.

    Well, fair enough, good point. But as John Curtice said, according to every poll, including the exit poll, Morley and Outwood was a seat Labour should have won. It was so far off his radar, in fact, that he had to crank up the number of Conservative seats by 10 as a result of it. Maybe he should have been thinking about this one - well, with hindsight he certainly should have been! - but the fact is that Balls lost a seat he really should have held.

    Whether that was entirely his fault for not campaigning there in person, instead spending time helping others, or his reputation as a nasty piece of work, or a mighty cock-up by Labour HQ, who under Tom Watson's guidance stripped it of campaign resources in a futile tilt at Sheffield Hallam, or a gentle suburban drift in the seat, or all four together, I don't know, but what does it say if the most formidable intellect, feared campaigner and in effect if not name deputy leader of the Labour party cannot hold his own seat?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,617
    This crowd sourcing approach could work for election results too. Get a PBer at every count and we'll be sorted.

    Just think - we could be first to know the PCC results next May.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Ydeothur

    Re Margaret Beaufort: I apologise. My question to you was an attempt at gently pulling your leg. I never meant you to take it seriously, at least so seriously that you would spend your time writing a serious reply. My fault, I am sorry.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    This crowd sourcing approach could work for election results too. Get a PBer at every count and we'll be sorted.

    Just think - we could be first to know the PCC results next May.

    Iain Dale did something similar in 2009, getting people to email/tweet him information privately from the counts. A little irregular perhaps, but it gave his radio show a remarkable immediacy.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,617
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    FPT on Morley and Outwood
    The notional result was silly. It involved thousands of votes for non-existent Independents. Well, they existed at local level, but like other council "independents" throughout England, they were Conservative-minded at general elections. The true notional majority should have been around 5,000.

    Well, fair enough, good point. But as John Curtice said, according to every poll, including the exit poll, Morley and Outwood was a seat Labour should have won. It was so far off his radar, in fact, that he had to crank up the number of Conservative seats by 10 as a result of it. Maybe he should have been thinking about this one - well, with hindsight he certainly should have been! - but the fact is that Balls lost a seat he really should have held.

    Whether that was entirely his fault for not campaigning there in person, instead spending time helping others, or his reputation as a nasty piece of work, or a mighty cock-up by Labour HQ, who under Tom Watson's guidance stripped it of campaign resources in a futile tilt at Sheffield Hallam, or a gentle suburban drift in the seat, or all four together, I don't know, but what does it say if the most formidable intellect, feared campaigner and in effect if not name deputy leader of the Labour party cannot hold his own seat?
    I thought the result was down to Morris_Dancer registering for 2,000 postal votes!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    @Ydeothur

    Re Margaret Beaufort: I apologise. My question to you was an attempt at gently pulling your leg. I never meant you to take it seriously, at least so seriously that you would spend your time writing a serious reply. My fault, I am sorry.

    Don't worry about it! It's often a good thing to have these things clearly spelled out anyway and my original post was quite short. It didn't waste my time at all.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    I listened in to that show and it was briiliant. IIRC his mate Hopi Sen was a co-presenter for a bit.
    ydoethur said:

    This crowd sourcing approach could work for election results too. Get a PBer at every count and we'll be sorted.

    Just think - we could be first to know the PCC results next May.

    Iain Dale did something similar in 2009, getting people to email/tweet him information privately from the counts. A little irregular perhaps, but it gave his radio show a remarkable immediacy.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:

    FPT on Morley and Outwood
    The notional result was silly. It involved thousands of votes for non-existent Independents. Well, they existed at local level, but like other council "independents" throughout England, they were Conservative-minded at general elections. The true notional majority should have been around 5,000.

    Well, fair enough, good point. But as John Curtice said, according to every poll, including the exit poll, Morley and Outwood was a seat Labour should have won. It was so far off his radar, in fact, that he had to crank up the number of Conservative seats by 10 as a result of it. Maybe he should have been thinking about this one - well, with hindsight he certainly should have been! - but the fact is that Balls lost a seat he really should have held.

    Whether that was entirely his fault for not campaigning there in person, instead spending time helping others, or his reputation as a nasty piece of work, or a mighty cock-up by Labour HQ, who under Tom Watson's guidance stripped it of campaign resources in a futile tilt at Sheffield Hallam, or a gentle suburban drift in the seat, or all four together, I don't know, but what does it say if the most formidable intellect, feared campaigner and in effect if not name deputy leader of the Labour party cannot hold his own seat?
    Yes. But every poll, including the exit poll, was wrong in the same direction. The exit poll, correct me if I'm wrong, predicted a Conservative minority government requiring the support of two other political parties. In reality, they won an extra fifteen seats beyond even the most wildly optimistic forecast.

    Ed Balls's vote stayed as was, so I doubt it is because he repelled many people who had previously voted for him. The Conservatives won a couple of thousand extra votes this time as the Lib Dems collapsed and thereby won the seat.

    With a majority of 1,000, the reason he didn't hold his own seat is because he didn't have a safe seat. For example, David Cameron has never lost his seat because it's in a part of the world with few Labour voters, not particularly because he is unusually virtuous or well-regarded.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    As I have given up carrying two phones around, I have given up the personal one and just use the business one, where it is strictly forbidden to downloads any apps for security purposes.

    However, my heart sank at the thought of football already. I really believe that it should operate from September 1 to April 30 and only have those two months where there is overlap with cricket. So, I suppose that SKY and their ilk can make more money and so gain a further stranglehold on PTV UK national sport.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2015
    EPG said:


    With a majority of 1,000, the reason he didn't hold his own seat is because he didn't have a safe seat. For example, David Cameron has never lost his seat because it's in a part of the world with few Labour voters, not particularly because he is unusually virtuous or well-regarded.

    (Although, as an aside, Witney was held by Labour just 15 years ago. But of course, Shaun Woodward wasn't elected as Labour, and he did bugger off to a safe seat as fast as he could, leading to the memorable Matt cartoon "Hallo, I'm Shaun Woodward, Labour candidate for wherever this is.")
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Great cartoon.
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:


    With a majority of 1,000, the reason he didn't hold his own seat is because he didn't have a safe seat. For example, David Cameron has never lost his seat because it's in a part of the world with few Labour voters, not particularly because he is unusually virtuous or well-regarded.

    (Although, as an aside, Witney was held by Labour just 15 years ago. But of course, Shaun Woodward wasn't elected as Labour, and he did bugger off to a safe seat as fast as he could, leading to the memorable Matt cartoon "Hallo, I'm Shaun Woodward, Labour candidate for wherever this is.")
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:


    With a majority of 1,000, the reason he didn't hold his own seat is because he didn't have a safe seat. For example, David Cameron has never lost his seat because it's in a part of the world with few Labour voters, not particularly because he is unusually virtuous or well-regarded.

    (Although, as an aside, Witney was held by Labour just 15 years ago. But of course, Shaun Woodward wasn't elected as Labour, and he did bugger off to a safe seat as fast as he could, leading to the memorable Matt cartoon "Hallo, I'm Shaun Woodward, Labour candidate for wherever this is.")
    I was thinking of him just as I was writing the original post. I think we qua society should have more respect for Ed Balls and less for Shaun Woodward.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    EPG said:

    ydoethur said:

    EPG said:


    With a majority of 1,000, the reason he didn't hold his own seat is because he didn't have a safe seat. For example, David Cameron has never lost his seat because it's in a part of the world with few Labour voters, not particularly because he is unusually virtuous or well-regarded.

    (Although, as an aside, Witney was held by Labour just 15 years ago. But of course, Shaun Woodward wasn't elected as Labour, and he did bugger off to a safe seat as fast as he could, leading to the memorable Matt cartoon "Hallo, I'm Shaun Woodward, Labour candidate for wherever this is.")
    I was thinking of him just as I was writing the original post. I think we qua society should have more respect for Ed Balls and less for Shaun Woodward.
    I'm happy to agree to that!
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    To do with cricket, rather than football, but as Notts collapse in a heap a certain Alex Hales has scored an unbeaten 76. Given Lyth's problems, maybe he's finding form at the right time?

    And Ballance hit 200 or whatever after being taken out the side.

    Never has the difference between club and country seemed so big.
    Has he played FC games since being dropped? I thought there had only been one day stuff until this week, where he scored 11 runs in 2 innings against Durham.
    Hmm, you're right.

    But I stand by the general rule.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    JohnO said:

    alex. said:

    JEO said:

    HYUFD said:

    JEO said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour's candidates and membership lean to the left at present following a second defeat, much as the Tories did after 2001. Corbyn will certainly come top on first preferences, if he does lose it will be narrowly on preferences to Burnham or Cooper.



    One thing Labour do have going for them is Cameron will not be there in 2020, if he was, as Blair was in 2005 for the Tories, I think it would be a matter of limiting the damage. Yet without him at the helm they may still have a chance



    With Labour, they are not just choosing Corbyn over a mild Blairite in Kendall, but over the party's Brownite middle in Burnham and Cooper. And doing so enthusiastically.
    Not necessarily, IDS would probably have beaten Portillo too (and Portillo, while a social liberal, was still a Thatcherite on economics and a eurosceptic) and while Davis may have beaten IDS he was a fellow rightwinger anyway.

    Portillo would have beaten IDS, and both him and Davis were (and still are!) In the sensible mainstream. Portillo's liberal social views and Davis' liberal civil rights views show they are thoughtful men and not ideologues.
    This is interesting.
    In 2001, apparently Tory MPs voted tactically to prevent Portillo being on the ballot paper put to party members. It was nearly a Clarke vs Portillo contest, with IDS eliminated.
    "By a single vote Portillo was eliminated from the contest. It later transpired that he had been the victim of tactical voting.[citation needed]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_2001
    IDS supporters voted tactically for Clarke not the other way round. It was almost an almighty f**k up, and came within a whisker of relegating IDS from the final 2.

    For what it's worth, my take on that alternate history is here:

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=361152
    That was a truly gripping read....and a welcome distraction from the tedious jobs ahead today!
    Thank you.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,008
    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    Oh, on this substantive. It was the same story throughout England for Labour, though, so not Balls personally. The Lib Dem vote went all over the place and it's really hard to identify the underlying swings between other parties, particularly in light of the abysmal failure of the opinion poll industry. Across the country Labour gained about as many votes as the Conservatives and the net seat change between the two parties was near-zero, with losses in places like Gower and Morley and gains in places like Wirral and Ilford, hardly reliably predictable. If you predict in terms of deviations from UNS, the statistical "error" in Balls's case was perhaps a few hundred votes, which is to be expected.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The picture of Ed Balls that is in my mind, is his cynical flat lining hand gestures at every PMQs, time after time. For that he lost any respect I may have had for him - perhaps some people in M&O felt the same.

    The state of the economy is something far too serious to make jokes about continuously as it affects too many people's hopes and lives.

    Of course, it is doubted whether the state of the economy affected Ed & Yvette, especially after all the money made with their years of residence flipping.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited August 2015

    A good read and somewhat relevant to this thread: Why tennis 'courtsiding' was my dream job

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32402945


    Gamblers keen to get an edge over their rivals, have taken to employing "courtsiders", who send back live data to syndicates and betting companies while a game is under way. Last year a British man became the first person to be arrested while engaged in the practice, at the Australian Open tennis tournament.

    For Dan Dobson it was a dream job. Still only 22 years old, he got to travel the world with some friends, earn a decent salary and watch top-level tennis.

    He was not just a spectator though, he had to send back live data to the gambling syndicate he worked for, as each player scored a point.

    To do this he used a simple device hidden inside his shorts.

    "You would sit on court for as long as you were needed pressing the buttons, which were sewn into my trousers and relay the scores back to London. You'd press one for Djokovic, two for Murray, for example, as fast as you could," he says.

    This is all driven by the explosion and liquidity of in-play markets.

    In-Play is what is also driving a lot of the corruption we have been seeing in cricket and it is happening in tennis. No longer do you have try and throw the match, you can just score slowly for the odd over or throw away the odd game in tennis.

    There was also an incident of a ref in the NBA deliberately giving fouls (or ignoring them) in order to affect the scoring rate of teams. Any game there were are lots of "points" are prime targets for this kind of corruption.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    1. Local profile. An outsider carpetbagging and not being seen often enough.
    2. A huge Tory ground campaign which Labour only got round to matching in April (and even then, without Balls to spearhead it).

    Clearly, there were national issues at play as well but that should have been the baseline swing. Similarly, there was a lot of local candidate churn, as you mention, but I'm not sure that had a great deal of effect on the notionals for the revised line-up; it just brought a lot of votes into play (it should be noted that UKIP had been doing very well in the locals in M&O in 2013-4, so it wasn't unforeseeable).

    The contrast with Michael Howard in 2005 is marked, when the Lib Dems tried to take his Folkestone seat, and Howard would return to campaign in his constituency most days after he'd finished with his national campaigning.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    ydoethur said:

    '
    On topic, thank you Mr Herdson for a thought-provoking and alarming article. It should be emailed to every Labour member who is thinking of voting Corbyn so they can feel good about themselves for three years before getting someone who can win elections in.

    What is really worrying is the stage we are at in the electoral cycle. At this point, having just been brutally hammered in an election by an unpopular government for being too left-wing, Labour should have worked out that moving further left would be pure self-indulgence and instead be looking to return to power in at least the medium term by electing somebody voters will listen to. Given that they have the recent example of Iain Duncan Smith to ponder, they have no excuse to be moving left, yet on these very threads we have seen people who are demonstrably sane and decent talking about doing just that.

    The damage they are doing to Labour's political credibility is immense. Is there any sign of hope for Labour that anyone can see?'

    What was so left-wing about Labour's 2015 manifesto? There was nothing there about renationalising large swathes of British industry - or bringing back the National Enterprise Board. No commitment to bring in compulsory Planning Agreements either. There was a commitment to restore the Top Rate of Income Tax to 50% - but that is hardly left-wing given that Thatcher had a rate of 60% for 9 years of her Government. A more accurate statement is surely that Labour was less right-wing than the Tories - but that certainly did not make them left-wing.
    As for the scale of defeat, I think you rather exaggerate - it was surprising rather than brutal.An overall majority of 12 is very small and likely to be eroded in due course. Moreover, in terms of % vote share Labour trailed the Tories by just 6.6% - less than in 2010 and less too than any of Thatcher's victories or Major's 1992 win.Had Scotland not gone 'tits up' for Labour the Tory lead for GB as a whole would have been circa 5% - still decisive , but far from overwhelming. Looking at England alone , Labour did better than in 2010- 1992-1987-1983 and 1959.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2015
    EPG said:


    Oh, on this substantive. It was the same story throughout England for Labour, though, so not Balls personally. The Lib Dem vote went all over the place and it's really hard to identify the underlying swings between other parties, particularly in light of the abysmal failure of the opinion poll industry. Across the country Labour gained about as many votes as the Conservatives and the net seat change between the two parties was near-zero, with losses in places like Gower and Morley and gains in places like Wirral and Ilford, hardly reliably predictable. If you predict in terms of deviations from UNS, the statistical "error" in Balls's case was perhaps a few hundred votes, which is to be expected.

    You may well accuse of moving the goalposts now. But I'm trying to explore this from every angle, because what you're saying is interesting and if your point stands up, I agree Balls deserves credit for not cutting and running (especially as he wouldn't have found it hard under the circumstances to get elected to a 'red rosette on a donkey' safe seat). Is there any other example of a Labour Shadow Cabinet figure outside Scotland (which was a bit of a special case) being returned with a smaller majority and a swing against them to the Conservatives? I know the others all kept their seats. But how many had their majorities cut?

    Because if Balls was the only one who couldn't improve his position - again, we come back to the question of why, especially as he had the highest profile of all of them after Miliband.

    Obviously, I am not going to say he would have lost if he had stood in the Rhondda (because he wouldn't have). And if the egregious Mary Creagh could win Wakefield, presumably he could have done as well. But I'm still surprised he couldn't hold Morley.

    Mind you, I was surprised Labour didn't retake Cannock Chase and Stroud. It was a surprising result!
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Would it be fair to also cite the £10 For Balls campaign from GE2010 by Anthony Calvert? That made a huge dent in Balls maj.

    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    1. Local profile. An outsider carpetbagging and not being seen often enough.
    2. A huge Tory ground campaign which Labour only got round to matching in April (and even then, without Balls to spearhead it).

    Clearly, there were national issues at play as well but that should have been the baseline swing. Similarly, there was a lot of local candidate churn, as you mention, but I'm not sure that had a great deal of effect on the notionals for the revised line-up; it just brought a lot of votes into play (it should be noted that UKIP had been doing very well in the locals in M&O in 2013-4, so it wasn't unforeseeable).

    The contrast with Michael Howard in 2005 is marked, when the Lib Dems tried to take his Folkestone seat, and Howard would return to campaign in his constituency most days after he'd finished with his national campaigning.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That Marina Hyde piece re Heath is very good, apols can't recall who posted it FPT http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/07/forget-law-and-order-police-dream-viral-limelight
    Idea for a press conference: someone stands in front of New Scotland Yard and fixes the cameras with a serious look, before appealing for information relating to possible crimes carried out by former occupants of that building. Perhaps the mere sight of the edifice, or its old Scotland Yard predecessor, could trigger memories that could help with inquiries – or, indeed, launch some eye-catching new ones. Remarkable, isn’t it, that in all the furore over historical allegations of abuse by establishment paedophiles, not a single name of a police officer – retired or dead – has found its way into the frame? I mean really, what are the odds? (About 2-1 in the 1970s vice squad, you’d have thought.)
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Plato said:

    That Marina Hyde piece re Heath is very good, apols can't recall who posted it FPT http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/07/forget-law-and-order-police-dream-viral-limelight

    Idea for a press conference: someone stands in front of New Scotland Yard and fixes the cameras with a serious look, before appealing for information relating to possible crimes carried out by former occupants of that building. Perhaps the mere sight of the edifice, or its old Scotland Yard predecessor, could trigger memories that could help with inquiries – or, indeed, launch some eye-catching new ones. Remarkable, isn’t it, that in all the furore over historical allegations of abuse by establishment paedophiles, not a single name of a police officer – retired or dead – has found its way into the frame? I mean really, what are the odds? (About 2-1 in the 1970s vice squad, you’d have thought.)
    Well I don't have a monopoly on it!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    justin124 said:


    What was so left-wing about Labour's 2015 manifesto? There was nothing there about renationalising large swathes of British industry - or bringing back the National Enterprise Board. No commitment to bring in compulsory Planning Agreements either. There was a commitment to restore the Top Rate of Income Tax to 50% - but that is hardly left-wing given that Thatcher had a rate of 60% for 9 years of her Government. A more accurate statement is surely that Labour was less right-wing than the Tories - but that certainly did not make them left-wing.
    As for the scale of defeat, I think you rather exaggerate - it was surprising rather than brutal.An overall majority of 12 is very small and likely to be eroded in due course. Moreover, in terms of % vote share Labour trailed the Tories by just 6.6% - less than in 2010 and less too than any of Thatcher's victories or Major's 1992 win.Had Scotland not gone 'tits up' for Labour the Tory lead for GB as a whole would have been circa 5% - still decisive , but far from overwhelming. Looking at England alone , Labour did better than in 2010- 1992-1987-1983 and 1959.

    That's the point, Justin. It wasn't very left wing. It was still seen as too left wing. Corbyn now proposes to go further left. That way lies madness.

    As for the scale of the defeat, Labour had a net loss of 27 seats. 40 lost to the SNP, 8 to the Conservatives, offset by 10 gains from the Liberal Democrats and 11 from the Conservatives (I would be willing to be corrected on the Conservative figures - I seem to remember 8 and 12, but that may include Corby). They got 232 seats and scored 30% of the vote - almost exactly what Neil Kinnock got in 1987.

    True, Labour have done worse in other elections. But all the others you cite with the exception of 1959 and 1983 are when either Labour has been in power or it has improved on its position from the election before. Moreover, they were all accompanied by a move back to the centre. Now, Corbyn proposes a sharp turn to the left, and as @david_herdson noted, if he wins he has the tools at his command to reshape the party further left as well.

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    You read the Guardian, so I didn't have to. A public service in my book!

    Plato said:

    That Marina Hyde piece re Heath is very good, apols can't recall who posted it FPT http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/07/forget-law-and-order-police-dream-viral-limelight

    Idea for a press conference: someone stands in front of New Scotland Yard and fixes the cameras with a serious look, before appealing for information relating to possible crimes carried out by former occupants of that building. Perhaps the mere sight of the edifice, or its old Scotland Yard predecessor, could trigger memories that could help with inquiries – or, indeed, launch some eye-catching new ones. Remarkable, isn’t it, that in all the furore over historical allegations of abuse by establishment paedophiles, not a single name of a police officer – retired or dead – has found its way into the frame? I mean really, what are the odds? (About 2-1 in the 1970s vice squad, you’d have thought.)
    Well I don't have a monopoly on it!

  • Options
    Spurs life.

    Losing to a team which hasn't managed a shot on target 'all' season.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Plato said:

    Would it be fair to also cite the £10 For Balls campaign from GE2010 by Anthony Calvert? That made a huge dent in Balls maj.

    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    1. Local profile. An outsider carpetbagging and not being seen often enough.
    2. A huge Tory ground campaign which Labour only got round to matching in April (and even then, without Balls to spearhead it).

    Clearly, there were national issues at play as well but that should have been the baseline swing. Similarly, there was a lot of local candidate churn, as you mention, but I'm not sure that had a great deal of effect on the notionals for the revised line-up; it just brought a lot of votes into play (it should be noted that UKIP had been doing very well in the locals in M&O in 2013-4, so it wasn't unforeseeable).

    The contrast with Michael Howard in 2005 is marked, when the Lib Dems tried to take his Folkestone seat, and Howard would return to campaign in his constituency most days after he'd finished with his national campaigning.
    In terms of the massive drop in the majority in 2010, yes, the scale of the campaign made a big difference and that, as you say, was possible because of the funding that Anthony received. The Conservatives hadn't seriously contested some areas in M&O for decades prior to its creation as Normanton (for example) was always a safe Labour seat. However, in 2015 that was already built into the baseline so Andrea Jenkyns had to put up just as big and effective a campaign simply to stand still, all else being equal.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2015
    It's a mainly white suburban area next to a big metropolitan city. Such areas are swinging away from Labour. Cannock Chase and Amber Valley are other examples.
    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Labour's utter lack of success might be somewhat mitigated by the marginal nature of the Conservative majority but only a fool would look at it and try to come to any conclusion other than Labour did quite incredibly badly in 2015.

    This is before the context of being the only main opposition for the majority of the party, standing against a party that had publicly cut spending (and seemed to enjoy it), and one of the coalition parties imploding so completely that it might be decades before they recover even a fraction of their former support.

    In the future, we will look back to this May and wonder how they managed to contrive such a result.

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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    "we might have been sh*te but you're only average"

    come on, you know this is a terrible argument.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,008
    Anthony Seldon on Question Time 'Corbyn will be leader for 3 years and then a few years before the election he will be replaced by Chuka Umunna'. Wishful thinking I think
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    JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited August 2015
    AndyJS said:

    It's a mainly white suburban area next to a big metropolitan city. Such areas are swinging away from Labour. Cannock Chase and Amber Valley are other examples.

    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    Indeed. It's a mostly white British area that has been put off by Labour's mass immigration policies. This effect is happening everywhere, but it is hidden in the cities because Labour's vast margins among the new ethnic minorities make up for it. But it will take Labour 50 years of current immigration levels for this to happen at a national level. Meanwhile Tory governments will reduce non-EU immigration.

    In all the debate over Labour reform, it is foolish for their position on immigration to not be looked at when its the biggest issue to voters.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Whenever I read arguments like that - it reminds me of my mother saying "Telling me she's fat, doesn't make you thin".

    "we might have been sh*te but you're only average"

    come on, you know this is a terrible argument.

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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    That's the point, Justin. It wasn't very left wing. It was still seen as too left wing. Corbyn now proposes to go further left. That way lies madness.

    As for the scale of the defeat, Labour had a net loss of 27 seats. 40 lost to the SNP, 8 to the Conservatives, offset by 10 gains from the Liberal Democrats and 11 from the Conservatives (I would be willing to be corrected on the Conservative figures - I seem to remember 8 and 12, but that may include Corby). They got 232 seats and scored 30% of the vote - almost exactly what Neil Kinnock got in 1987.

    True, Labour have done worse in other elections. But all the others you cite with the exception of 1959 and 1983 are when either Labour has been in power or it has improved on its position from the election before. Moreover, they were all accompanied by a move back to the centre. Now, Corbyn proposes a sharp turn to the left, and as @david_herdson noted, if he wins he has the tools at his command to reshape the party further left as well.

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.
    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections. There is also the real possibility that the electorate might move towards a position that it had rejected earlier. I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view. A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!
    I am not a supporter of Corbyn - I will vote for Cooper having paid my £3- but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up' - another recession for example - Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It is also the hardest to resolve since they can't be sent home, have more children on average and have formed ghettos.

    So the visible aspect of their policy here is front and centre in everyday life, unlike something abstract like the deficit.
    JEO said:

    AndyJS said:

    It's a mainly white suburban area next to a big metropolitan city. Such areas are swinging away from Labour. Cannock Chase and Amber Valley are other examples.

    ydoethur said:

    @EPG Perhaps. What puzzles me when I look at Morley and Outwood is the churn. With the BNP not standing and the Liberal Democrat vote doing a passable impression of a lemming on the Empire State Building, the votes seem to have leeched to UKIP and the Greens from Labour, while a fair number of votes went to the Conservatives (from the Liberal Democrats or Labour)? Yet Balls could only stand still - a handful down on raw numbers, a handful up on turnout. Why was he not hanging on to this vote? Personality? Policy? A general swing? That would fit with the result in Elmet, but not in Pontefract.

    I have never been to Morley and Outwood, and I don't know what it's like. But it seems to me something a bit odd happened there, and Balls would appear to be the joker in the pack.

    Indeed. It's a mostly white British area that has been put off by Labour's mass immigration policies. This effect is happening everywhere, but it is hidden in the cities because Labour's vast margins among the new ethnic minorities make up for it. But it will take Labour 50 years of current immigration levels for this to happen at a national level. Meanwhile Tory governments will reduce non-EU immigration.

    In all the debate over Labour reform, it is foolish for their position on immigration to not be looked at when its the biggest issue to voters.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    Talking of football is it not time to bring the 2015/16 season to a close? Man U currently top of the league.
  • Options
    Turgid game - more to come for me this season..

    no one likes to see a dirty game (tho from the BBC)


    Man Utd 1-0 Tottenham

    Posted at 85 mins

    "Sergio..Romero" sing the United fans. De Gea who??

    Juan Mata is down at the moment, it looks like crap.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307

    Turgid game - more to come for me this season..

    no one likes to see a dirty game (tho from the BBC)


    Man Utd 1-0 Tottenham

    Posted at 85 mins

    "Sergio..Romero" sing the United fans. De Gea who??

    Juan Mata is down at the moment, it looks like crap.

    Only seen the last 40 minutes but everyone seems to be blowing a bit and there is a lot more effort than skill.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307

    Turgid game - more to come for me this season..

    no one likes to see a dirty game (tho from the BBC)


    Man Utd 1-0 Tottenham

    Posted at 85 mins

    "Sergio..Romero" sing the United fans. De Gea who??

    Juan Mata is down at the moment, it looks like crap.

    Spurs confirmed in the relegation zone.
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    Bottom.

    the table doesn't lie.
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    William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    edited August 2015
    The claim that Labour lost because they were seen as too left wing is rather dubious. Labour were perceived as less left wing than the Conservatives were right wing.

    They did perhaps lose in part because they were not seen as economically credible, which was reinforced by the lukewarmness of their support for austerity, but that's not inherently a right/left issue. One can be "austere" and left wing, if you're prepared to raise taxes.

    Labour also made the rather odd strategy of effectively portraying themselves as more left wing than their actual major policies merited, by picking fights with business with little substance being them, and by making symbolic tax rises. A really smart Labour politician would be doing the opposite, but that's perhaps awkward to pull off with the way the balance of the party is - the left wing substance would alienate influential factions in the leadership of the party, while centrist appearances would make it hard to win over the grass routes.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    edited August 2015
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Ears, cheers for that video. Dry stone walls are great things, much better than boring fencing and barbed wire (few years ago now some plank put up barbed wire too near a path and a little dog ran into it and ended up blind in one eye).

    Mr. Rentool, the wiffle stick of righteousness pulverised Balls.

    And there was much rejoicing.

    Edited extra bit: the app sounds cunning. As I don't watch sport in-person and have no smartphone, it doesn't really apply to me, though.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    justin124 said:


    ydoethur said:

    '
    On topic, thank you Mr Herdson for a thought-provoking and alarming article. It should be emailed to every Labour member who is thinking of voting Corbyn so they can feel good about themselves for three years before getting someone who can win elections in.

    What is really worrying is the stage we are at in the electoral cycle. At this point, having just been brutally hammered in an election by an unpopular government for being too left-wing, Labour should have worked out that moving further left would be pure self-indulgence and instead be looking to return to power in at least the medium term by electing somebody voters will listen to. Given that they have the recent example of Iain Duncan Smith to ponder, they have no excuse to be moving left, yet on these very threads we have seen people who are demonstrably sane and decent

    The damage they are doing to Labour's political credibility is immense. Is there any sign of hope for Labour that anyone can see?'

    What was so left-wing about Labour's 2015 manifesto? There was nothing there about renationalising large swathes of British industry - or bringing back the National Enterprise Board. No commitment to bring in compulsory Planning Agreements either. There was a commitment to restore the Top Rate of Income Tax to 50% - but that is hardly left-wing given that Thatcher had a rate of 60% for 9 years of her Government. A more accurate statement is surely that Labour was less right-wing than the Tories - but that certainly did not make them left-wing.
    As for the scale of defeat, I think you rather exaggerate - it was surprising rather than brutal.An overall majority of 12 is very small and likely to be eroded in due course. Moreover, in terms of % vote share Labour trailed the Tories by just 6.6% - less than in 2010 and less too than any of Thatcher's victories or Major's 1992 win.Had Scotland not gone 'tits up' for Labour the Tory lead for GB as a whole would have been circa 5% - still decisive , but far from overwhelming. Looking at England alone , Labour did better than in 2010- 1992-1987-1983 and 1959.

    A majority of 12 is not much, and the Tories will surely run into difficulties in this Parliament. So far, so good for Labour. But, the problems are:-

    1. Labour went backwards, relative to the Tories, in marginal seats. Labour put votes on in London and core cities, wiping out the Lib Dems in the process. But, there's not much left to win in such places.

    2. Labour can't blame a split left wing vote for a Conservative victory. Corbyn or whoever wins, can unite the left and still lose. 51% voted for right wing parties in the UK, and 55% in England. Labour has to win some of these people over.

    3. Voting Labour is inconceivable now to a lot of Southern and Midlands voters. A lot of places haven't returned Labour councillors since the 1990s. Tory-free zones are much rarer in England.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    That's the point, Justin. It wasn't very left wing. It was still seen as too left wing. Corbyn now proposes to go further left. That way lies madness.

    As for the scale of the defeat, Labour had a net loss of 27 seats. 40 lost to the SNP, 8 to the Conservatives, offset by 10 gains from the Liberal Democrats and 11 from the Conservatives (I would be willing to be corrected on the Conservative figures - I seem to remember 8 and 12, but that may include Corby). They got 232 seats and scored 30% of the vote - almost exactly what Neil Kinnock got in 1987.

    True, Labour have done worse in other elections. But all the others you cite with the exception of 1959 and 1983 are when either Labour has been in power or it has improved on its position from the election before. Moreover, they were all accompanied by a move back to the centre. Now, Corbyn proposes a sharp turn to the left, and as @david_herdson noted, if he wins he has the tools at his command to reshape the party further left as well.

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.
    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections. There is also the real possibility that the electorate might move towards a position that it had rejected earlier. I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view. A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!
    I am not a supporter of Corbyn - I will vote for Cooper having paid my £3- but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up' - another recession for example - Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing
    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    justin124 said:


    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.

    2010 was, in terms of the popular vote, Labour's second-worst result in the age of universal suffrage. John O'Farrell described a 3% increase in Labour's national vote in 1987 as 'measly'. I agree with him. In any case, since the Tories and the Greens both slightly increased their vote, it is hardly a ringing endorsement of Labour.
    justin124 said:

    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections... I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view.

    Yes, Labour would have won in 1997 on the 1992 manifesto, in all likelihood. They might even have won had they stood on a manifesto of shooting the wealthiest 5%. That's not necessarily proof the electorate had moved towards them. It had however moved decisively away from their rivals.
    justin124 said:

    A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!

    Except a majority of Scottish voters, including around 10-15% of the SNP's supporters (that's 10-15% of their vote, not 10-15 points) still oppose independence. You can want a better deal for Scotland and want to really hurt a corrupt political party that's long past its UBD, without endorsing all the policies of the party you think will give you that result.
    justin124 said:

    I am not a supporter of Corbyn...but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up'... Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing

    Fair enough, but it seems unlikely that in Britain, which has a very sophisticated and well-educated electorate (contrary to popular belief) will be seduced by the idea that there are easy solutions to our problems. If there is another recession with Corbyn as the alternative leader, I would expect that to cement the Tories' position unless it was demonstrably their fault and demonstrably linked to austerity.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    William_H said:

    The claim that Labour lost because they were seen as too left wing is rather dubious. Labour were perceived as less left wing than the Conservatives were right wing.

    They did perhaps lose in part because they were not seen as economically credible, which was reinforced by the lukewarmness of their support for austerity, but that's not inherently a right/left issue. One can be "austere" and left wing, if you're prepared to raise taxes.

    Labour also made the rather odd strategy of effectively portraying themselves as more left wing than their actual major policies merited, by picking fights with business with little substance being them, and by making symbolic tax rises. A really smart Labour politician would be doing the opposite, but that's perhaps awkward to pull off with the way the balance of the party is - the left wing substance would alienate influential factions in the leadership of the party, while centrist appearances would make it hard to win over the grass routes.

    All fair points. But it would be better to address the problem of being seen as 'left wing' (as you slightly contradictorily note) with an unambiguous move to the centre. Not sure Burnham or Cooper will offer that, but putting Labour's rhetoric and reality further left is surely the quickest way to make the electorate think that they are totally out of touch.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited August 2015
    An interesting perspective from a Scottish Tory :

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-who-voted-yes/#more-74200

    I agree with much of what this chap has to say, those of us with a business background would've relished the opportunity to take the Scottish economy forward, in the short term there would have been challenges but in the medium term I'm sure Scotland's economy would have prospered. I remember watching Martin Sorrell being interviewed on Bloomberg in the run up to Indyref, although a staunch Unionist, he indicated an iScotland had the potential to become the Singapore of Europe.

    The bizarre irony of Osbo and Cameron now talking about turning Manchester into a Northern Powerhouse, to help rebalance the North South divide after years of underinvestment, is not lost on many of us Scots:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1526967/singapore-cash-to-pay-for-northern-powerhouse

    Having lived in London through the 1980s and 1990s when there was massive spending on the re-gentrification of London, I saw at first hand what can be achieved with proper investment. That said, there were many white elephant projects - I sometimes wonder whether the Channel Tunnel was the biggest !!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Miss Plato, that's quite hilarious.

    Reopen the coal mines, close the coal-fired power stations, jobs for all, electricity for no-one :p
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    I've just seen TSE's fantasy team.... that's cheered me up after Spurs...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,755
    calum said:

    An interesting perspective from a Scottish Tory :

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-who-voted-yes/#more-74200

    I agree with much of what this chap has to say, those of us with a business background would've relished the opportunity to take the Scottish economy forward, in the short term there would have been challenges but in the medium term I'm sure Scotland's economy would have prospered. I remember watching Martin Sorrell being interviewed on Bloomberg in the run up to Indyref, although a staunch Unionist, he indicated an iScotland had the potential to become the Singapore of Europe.

    The bizarre irony of Osbo and Cameron now talking about turning Manchester into a Northern Powerhouse, to help rebalance the North South divide after years of underinvestment, is not lost on many of us Scots:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1526967/singapore-cash-to-pay-for-northern-powerhouse

    Having lived in London through the 1980s and 1990s when there was massive spending on the re-gentrification of London, I saw at first hand what can be achieved with proper investment. That said, there were many white elephant projects - I sometimes wonder whether the Channel Tunnel was the biggest !!

    Arrant nonsense

    It ignores the fact that most Scots are voting for socialism heavy. You won't get Singapore style growth when you keep electing people who view Jeremy Corbyn as a LibDem.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2015



    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?

    I don't see the Red Liberals forgiving and forgetting anytime soon (more likely is them defecting to the Greens imo). Farron is not a good fit at all for the Guardianista/London luvvie groups I don't think.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    calum said:

    An interesting perspective from a Scottish Tory :

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-who-voted-yes/#more-74200

    I agree with much of what this chap has to say, those of us with a business background would've relished the opportunity to take the Scottish economy forward, in the short term there would have been challenges but in the medium term I'm sure Scotland's economy would have prospered. I remember watching Martin Sorrell being interviewed on Bloomberg in the run up to Indyref, although a staunch Unionist, he indicated an iScotland had the potential to become the Singapore of Europe.

    The bizarre irony of Osbo and Cameron now talking about turning Manchester into a Northern Powerhouse, to help rebalance the North South divide after years of underinvestment, is not lost on many of us Scots:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1526967/singapore-cash-to-pay-for-northern-powerhouse

    Having lived in London through the 1980s and 1990s when there was massive spending on the re-gentrification of London, I saw at first hand what can be achieved with proper investment. That said, there were many white elephant projects - I sometimes wonder whether the Channel Tunnel was the biggest !!

    Arrant nonsense

    It ignores the fact that most Scots are voting for socialism heavy. You won't get Singapore style growth when you keep electing people who view Jeremy Corbyn as a LibDem.
    "Singapore-style" growth is available already to Scotland - they can choose to cut taxes and spending, making themselves more competitive with high-value service industries compared to larger countries nearby.

    Oh.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    And change how they teach/examine kids... When I used to have a serious day job - we called that little list having a strategic advantage :tongue:
    Sandpit said:

    calum said:

    An interesting perspective from a Scottish Tory :

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-who-voted-yes/#more-74200

    I agree with much of what this chap has to say, those of us with a business background would've relished the opportunity to take the Scottish economy forward, in the short term there would have been challenges but in the medium term I'm sure Scotland's economy would have prospered. I remember watching Martin Sorrell being interviewed on Bloomberg in the run up to Indyref, although a staunch Unionist, he indicated an iScotland had the potential to become the Singapore of Europe.

    The bizarre irony of Osbo and Cameron now talking about turning Manchester into a Northern Powerhouse, to help rebalance the North South divide after years of underinvestment, is not lost on many of us Scots:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1526967/singapore-cash-to-pay-for-northern-powerhouse

    Having lived in London through the 1980s and 1990s when there was massive spending on the re-gentrification of London, I saw at first hand what can be achieved with proper investment. That said, there were many white elephant projects - I sometimes wonder whether the Channel Tunnel was the biggest !!

    Arrant nonsense

    It ignores the fact that most Scots are voting for socialism heavy. You won't get Singapore style growth when you keep electing people who view Jeremy Corbyn as a LibDem.
    "Singapore-style" growth is available already to Scotland - they can choose to cut taxes and spending, making themselves more competitive with high-value service industries compared to larger countries nearby.

    Oh.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Stella Creasy reckons Labour missed a tricky over their leadership voting system:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33833433

    Not so much 'missed a trick' as 'dropped a ravenous honey badger down their codpiece'.
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    calum said:

    An interesting perspective from a Scottish Tory :

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tory-who-voted-yes/#more-74200

    I agree with much of what this chap has to say, those of us with a business background would've relished the opportunity to take the Scottish economy forward, in the short term there would have been challenges but in the medium term I'm sure Scotland's economy would have prospered. I remember watching Martin Sorrell being interviewed on Bloomberg in the run up to Indyref, although a staunch Unionist, he indicated an iScotland had the potential to become the Singapore of Europe.

    The bizarre irony of Osbo and Cameron now talking about turning Manchester into a Northern Powerhouse, to help rebalance the North South divide after years of underinvestment, is not lost on many of us Scots:

    http://news.sky.com/story/1526967/singapore-cash-to-pay-for-northern-powerhouse

    Having lived in London through the 1980s and 1990s when there was massive spending on the re-gentrification of London, I saw at first hand what can be achieved with proper investment. That said, there were many white elephant projects - I sometimes wonder whether the Channel Tunnel was the biggest !!

    It rather spoils the piece that the writer isn't a Tory, just a deluded fool.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It might be value backing Everton. They've gone 1-0 down to Watford:

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/football/event?id=27468367
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Dear me Mr Dancer. The very thought made my eyes water!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:


    ydoethur said:

    '
    What was so left-wing about Labour's 2015 manifesto? There was nothing there about renationalising large swathes of British industry - or bringing back the National Enterprise Board. No commitment to bring in compulsory Planning Agreements either. There was a commitment to restore the Top Rate of Income Tax to 50% - but that is hardly left-wing given that Thatcher had a rate of 60% for 9 years of her Government. A more accurate statement is surely that Labour was less right-wing than the Tories - but that certainly did not make them left-wing.
    As for the scale of defeat, I think you rather exaggerate - it was surprising rather than brutal.An overall majority of 12 is very small and likely to be eroded in due course. Moreover, in terms of % vote share Labour trailed the Tories by just 6.6% - less than in 2010 and less too than any of Thatcher's victories or Major's 1992 win.Had Scotland not gone 'tits up' for Labour the Tory lead for GB as a whole would have been circa 5% - still decisive , but far from overwhelming. Looking at England alone , Labour did better than in 2010- 1992-1987-1983 and 1959.

    A majority of 12 is not much, and the Tories will surely run into difficulties in this Parliament. So far, so good for Labour. But, the problems are:-

    1. Labour went backwards, relative to the Tories, in marginal seats. Labour put votes on in London and core cities, wiping out the Lib Dems in the process. But, there's not much left to win in such places.

    2. Labour can't blame a split left wing vote for a Conservative victory. Corbyn or whoever wins, can unite the left and still lose. 51% voted for right wing parties in the UK, and 55% in England. Labour has to win some of these people over.

    3. Voting Labour is inconceivable now to a lot of Southern and Midlands voters. A lot of places haven't returned Labour councillors since the 1990s. Tory-free zones are much rarer in England.
    Point 1 is fair comment.
    Re -point 2. I believe that the Tory overall majority can be blamed on a split left-wing vote. There are 7 constituencies which I am convinced the Tories would not have won had there been no Green candidate on the ballot paper - Gower - Derby North - Croydon Central - Bury North - Morley & Outwood -Plymouth Devonport & Sutton - and Brighton Kemptown.Without them we would be on the cusp of a minority Tory Govt (courtesy of Sinn Fein).

    Re - point 3. I live in a Tory - free zone in Norwich in respect of councillors. Of course, this is also true of the big cities of Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Newcastle upon Tyne - so there are plenty of Tory deserts to point to.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. 124, checking Wikipedia, the Greens got just under 1,300 votes here. UKIP got just under 8,000. Margin of victory was under 500.

    You can't just cherrypick. You could just as easily say without the UKIP candidate the Conservatives would have a 5,000 vote majority.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited August 2015
    justin124 said:


    Re - point 3. I live in a Tory - free zone in Norwich in respect of councillors. Of course, this is also true of the big cities of Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Newcastle upon Tyne - so there are plenty of Tory deserts to point to.

    Norwich North has a Conservative MP...
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 2015

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    .

    True, Labour have done worse in other elections. But all the others you cite with the exception of 1959 and 1983 are when either Labour has been in power or it has improved on its position from the election before. Moreover, they were all accompanied by a move back to the centre. Now, Corbyn proposes a sharp turn to the left, and as @david_herdson noted, if he wins he has the tools at his command to reshape the party further left as well.

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.
    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections. There is also the real possibility that the electorate might move towards a position that it had rejected earlier. I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view. A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!
    I am not a supporter of Corbyn - I will vote for Cooper having paid my £3- but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up' - another recession for example - Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing
    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?
    I think the LibDems have lost such left of centre voters for a generation at least. Labour will always be able to say 'Don't trust the LibDems not to put the Tories in' and I am sure those will be very receptive to that message. Corbyn might well cement them much more firmly in the Labour column. I speak as someone who voted LibDem in both 2001 and 2005.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Stella Creasy reckons Labour missed a tricky over their leadership voting system:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33833433

    Not so much 'missed a trick' as 'dropped a ravenous honey badger down their codpiece'.

    Equally negligent of them not to put in place a system where the vote for leader could influence the vote for deputy, given that various people have suggested it should either me a left/right or man/woman balance. They've not given themselves a way of ensuring that.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    I said Norwich would concede!

    Our back line isn't up to it.

    Wouldn't be surprised to see more goals.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    justin124 said:


    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?

    I think the LibDems have lost such left of centre voters for a generation at least. Labour will always be able to say 'Don't trust the LibDems not to put the Tories in' and I am sure those will be very receptive to that message. Corbyn might well cement them much more firmly in the Labour column. I speak as someone who voted LibDem in both 2001 and 2005.
    I would have guessed, although I haven't done analysis to prove it, that a significant chunk of those 6% were Labour tactical voters returning home (how much analysis has been done on tactical unwind, BTW)?

    The only small problem being of course that they tended to help Labour add votes, but gave the Tories seats. If the Tories can keep winning seats on a split vote like that, it's unlikely they will be reduced to a position of such weakness as they were in 1997 whoever the Labour leader is.

    And it also makes the task of assembling an election-winning coalition harder for Labour. Now 35% won't do, 42-43% is more like it. If somebody would show me where a left-wing Labour party can put together 43% of the national vote based on England and the South Wales Valleys alone, I'd be impressed.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Meanwhile, in the cricket Glamorgan are suffering if anything a worse humiliation than Australia. Gloucestershire, bereft of no fewer than five first choice players including all three of their captains plus their two leading fast bowlers are currently hammering them to pieces at Swansea. Glamorgan are seven runs behind with only five wickets left and all their South Africans batsmen back in the hutch. And there's still a day and a bit to go...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    edited August 2015
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    .

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.
    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections. There is also the real possibility that the electorate might move towards a position that it had rejected earlier. I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view. A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!
    I am not a supporter of Corbyn - I will vote for Cooper having paid my £3- but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up' - another recession for example - Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing
    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?
    I think the LibDems have lost such left of centre voters for a generation at least. Labour will always be able to say 'Don't trust the LibDems not to put the Tories in' and I am sure those will be very receptive to that message. Corbyn might well cement them much more firmly in the Labour column. I speak as someone who voted LibDem in both 2001 and 2005.
    By the same token, "Don't trust Labour not to put the SNP in" seemed to be the leader to a lot of floating English voters that ended up in the Conservative column three months ago. Corbyn has already said that he's ready to do the same deal with those who wish to break up the country.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    edited August 2015
    Sandpit said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    .

    So there is no reason to be optimistic about Labour's prospects at the moment.
    In terms of GB vote share Labour did advance from 29.7% to 31.2%. Its vote share in England rose by a not insignificant 3.6%. In terms of seats Labour's net loss of 26 - compared to 2010 - is due to its catastrophic loss of 40 in Scotland to the SNP being only partly offset by net gains of 2 from the Tories and 12 from the LibDems.
    With regard to policy I don't accept the argument that rejection of a set of policies at a particular election necessarily requires that the defeated party has to change what if offers to the electorate at future elections. There is also the real possibility that the electorate might move towards a position that it had rejected earlier. I remain firmly of the view,for example,that had Labour fought the 1997 election on its 1992 manifesto it would still have won pretty comfortably - in the intervening five years the electorate had shifted its view. A much more extreme example would relate to the SNP - whose policy of Independence was rejected repeatedly at elections over a period of many decades. Eventually,however, the SNP's persistence did produce a reward!
    I am not a supporter of Corbyn - I will vote for Cooper having paid my £3- but I don't share the assumption that his leadership will inevitably prove a disaster. If in the next few years the economy again goes 'tits up' - another recession for example - Osborne could still reap a bitter harvest, with the electorate much more receptive than in 2015 to the view that austerity - and its associated sacrifices - was for nothing
    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?
    I think the LibDems have lost such left of centre voters for a generation at least. Labour will always be able to say 'Don't trust the LibDems not to put the Tories in' and I am sure those will be very receptive to that message. Corbyn might well cement them much more firmly in the Labour column. I speak as someone who voted LibDem in both 2001 and 2005.
    By the same token, "Don't trust Labour not to put the SNP in" seemed to be the leader to a lot of floating English voters that ended up in the Conservative column three months ago. Corbyn has already said that he's ready to do the same deal with those who wish to break up the country.
    And he'd re-unify Ireland. It'd be just England and Little Wales.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    .

    .

    Without the 2010 Lib Dems, Labour's share would have been about 24%. How long will they stay around now that the Lib Dems are back in opposition?
    I think the LibDems have lost such left of centre voters for a generation at least. Labour will always be able to say 'Don't trust the LibDems not to put the Tories in' and I am sure those will be very receptive to that message. Corbyn might well cement them much more firmly in the Labour column. I speak as someone who voted LibDem in both 2001 and 2005.
    I'm replying to this post but it could equally apply to many others.
    I think that it will take a couple of years before things can settle down enough for us to see whether the LibDems will recover, whether the Greens will advance, whether UKIP will maintain its share, whether the SNP will continue to win every contest available.
    The LibDems are now in opposition to a minority Tory government and have a new leader. They were so soundly thrashed at the GE that the only way will be up, just how much and how fast is the question.
    The Greens will probably do well if the Libdems don't recover much and less well if they do.
    UKIP's future will depend strongly on the referendum issue, but I think that they will decline from their 13% level. They already have if the few polls we've seen are to believed.
    The SNP will continue to do well until they make unpopular decisions as a party of government in Scotland, they'll probably lose seats in the 2020 GE, but that's not saying much I suspect they'll still have a good majority of Scottish MPs.
    Labour are the big unknown and it matters greatly who they choose as leader. Corbyn could be a godsend to all the other opposition parties, but 'anyone but Corbyn' doesn't look inspiring either.
    The Tories will have a honeymoon but could tear themselves apart over Europe.
    Interesting times.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Isn't it something like a third of UK trade is across to Ireland?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,755

    Isn't it something like a third of UK trade is across to Ireland?
    UK and Ireland are still heavily integrated in trading, RoI really doesn't want the UK to leave.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:


    Re - point 3. I live in a Tory - free zone in Norwich in respect of councillors. Of course, this is also true of the big cities of Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Newcastle upon Tyne - so there are plenty of Tory deserts to point to.

    Norwich North has a Conservative MP...
    Indeed so - that is my own constituency but 55% of the seat is actually in Broadland rather than Norwich. My comment related to councillors.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Stella Creasy reckons Labour missed a tricky over their leadership voting system:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33833433

    Not so much 'missed a trick' as 'dropped a ravenous honey badger down their codpiece'.

    Equally negligent of them not to put in place a system where the vote for leader could influence the vote for deputy, given that various people have suggested it should either me a left/right or man/woman balance. They've not given themselves a way of ensuring that.
    Inept doesn't begin to cover it. And they want to run the country?
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