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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Mayor of London – the first big electoral test for LAB’

SystemSystem Posts: 11,685
edited August 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Mayor of London – the first big electoral test for LAB’s new leader

Six Labour candidates made it onto the party’s shortlist: Diane Abbott, Tessa Jowell, Sadiq Khan, David Lammy, Gareth Thomas and Christian Wolmar. One will be chosen by ballot of Labour members and affiliates and announced over the same weekend as the party’s Leader and Deputy Leader – the 12th and 13th of September, so there won’t be an opportunity for one decision to influence the other.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    The Jowell price on Betfair is being held down by the curious £2500 looking to back her at 3.15.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Odds correct as of Saturday afternoon!

    Though the movements haven't been major.
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    Two excellent guest pieces today.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Who is Gareth Thomas?
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Plato said:

    Who is Gareth Thomas?

    The international Welsh rugby player!

    Oh you mean the one I mentioned.

    Labour MP for Harrow West, on an indistinct ticket save for greater devolution away from city hall to councils.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    Afternoon all :)

    I strongly suspect Caroline Pidgeon will be the LD candidate if she chooses to stand. I don't believe the likes of Simon Hughes or Ed Davey will put themselves forward. Caroline has done a lot at the GLA especially on transport.

    Zak Goldsmith will almost certainly be the Conservative candidate as TWR opines - I do detect a sense of annoyance among some of the Conservative local Government leaders such as Philippa Roe and others that an MP is once again going to be doing two jobs or risking a by-election (and I've not heard Goldsmith say if he will continue as an MP if elected Mayor).

    Labour's race is the hardest to call though Tessa Jowell is probably the candidate the Conservatives should be most worried about - she may be able to reach into the suburbs and get a decent share of the vote. In May, the Conservative performance was mixed - one or two remarkable results (Hendon and Sutton & Cheam) countered by some less predictable losses (Ilford North) and the 2014 locals weren't good for the Conservatives overall.

    I would say Goldsmith is the Conservatives' best hope of a narrow defeat - the two game-changers might be a Labour schism in the immediate aftermath of a Corbyn victory or the holding of the EU Referendum on the same day as the Mayoral election but I don't consider either very likely.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Two excellent guest pieces today.

    Thanks TSE!

    Am in esteemed company.
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    A disgrace Sol Campbell didn't make the Tory shortlist.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If Labour can't win the London mayoralty next year they might as well give up and go home. And if it's Sadiq Khan vs Zac Goldsmith they might indeed risk losing.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ah ha!

    Many thanks, Mr Rabbit.

    Not that it matters one iota, but why on Earth is he standing?! Does he have a lot of free time on his hands?

    Hoping to get on Big Brother next season?

    Plato said:

    Who is Gareth Thomas?

    The international Welsh rugby player!

    Oh you mean the one I mentioned.

    Labour MP for Harrow West, on an indistinct ticket save for greater devolution away from city hall to councils.
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    Greenhalgh is the ablest of those mentioned. In a meritocracy he'd win.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'd rather vote for Tessa, than Zac.

    I think he's got trouble written all over him.
    AndyJS said:

    If Labour can't win the London mayoralty next year they might as well give up and go home. And if it's Sadiq Khan vs Zac Goldsmith they might indeed risk losing.

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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited August 2015
    stodge said:

    Labour's race is the hardest to call though Tessa Jowell is probably the candidate the Conservatives should be most worried about - she may be able to reach into the suburbs and get a decent share of the vote. In May, the Conservative performance was mixed - one or two remarkable results (Hendon and Sutton & Cheam) countered by some less predictable losses (Ilford North) and the 2014 locals weren't good for the Conservatives overall.

    Today’s YouGov survey of more than 1,000 adults showed that if voters were given a choice between Mr Khan and Mr Goldsmith, 53 per cent preferred the Tory candidate.

    I think you're right.

    "When the same question, which excluded “don’t knows”, was asked in early June the score was a straight 50/50 divide.

    Given a choice between Dame Tessa Jowell and Mr Goldsmith, 57 per cent chose the Labour candidate and 43 per cent opted for the Conservative frontrunner."

    That's an enormous difference.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-would-lose-city-hall-contest-with-zac-goldsmith-poll-says-10393127.html
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Plato said:

    Ah ha!

    Many thanks, Mr Rabbit.

    Not that it matters one iota, but why on Earth is he standing?! Does he have a lot of free time on his hands?

    Hoping to get on Big Brother next season?

    Plato said:

    Who is Gareth Thomas?

    The international Welsh rugby player!

    Oh you mean the one I mentioned.

    Labour MP for Harrow West, on an indistinct ticket save for greater devolution away from city hall to councils.
    Hanging around on the back benches since being a junior minister under Brown. Hinted he would stand earlier this year, but only followed through after the election, so my guess is it's career advancement. Certainly doesn't have a particular ego problem.
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    Two excellent guest pieces today.

    Thanks TSE!

    Am in esteemed company.
    I hope we see more pieces from you.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    All sorts of hate about Heath bouncing around on threads under this story.

    Sheesh.
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    A disgrace Sol Campbell didn't make the Tory shortlist.

    Seriously? I can't imagine a worse candidate for the Tories.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    edited August 2015
    I think Zac could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zac will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    A few numbers I couldn't fit into the header:

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the nomination, go to William Hill (combined price 1.17).

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the Mayoralty, you can (apparently) get 3.5 on Jowell, at 888Sport, Unibet and 32Red, and get what you can on Betfair for Khan (current 4.6), to give something around evens.

    Don't bother backing the Tories, back Goldsmith on betfair and get 3.3.

    If you can do well, the Goldsmith or Khan or Jowell triple is 1.2...
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    In a Corbyn led Labour Party , a redeemed Galloway should be tasked with regaining Scotland.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Noone has yet to disprove my presumption that all parties are equal, and that political affiliation doesn't matter.

    From the little we know (because I think a lot is still under the rug) it seems parties were preapred to cover for each other - the establishment cover up at its finest. Or not.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    A few numbers I couldn't fit into the header:

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the nomination, go to William Hill (combined price 1.17).

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the Mayoralty, you can (apparently) get 3.5 on Jowell, at 888Sport, Unibet and 32Red, and get what you can on Betfair for Khan (current 4.6), to give something around evens.

    Don't bother backing the Tories, back Goldsmith on betfair and get 3.3.

    If you can do well, the Goldsmith or Khan or Jowell triple is 1.2...

    Sky Bet were an enourmous 7-4 a while back for Jowell's nomination. I totally boot filled on that.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Bigger than Belgium and Dutroux?

    Given how many incredibly didn't know about Savile, I wouldn't be at all surprised if its many factors larger.
    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited August 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    A few numbers I couldn't fit into the header:

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the nomination, go to William Hill (combined price 1.17).

    If you want a Jowell/Khan double to win the Mayoralty, you can (apparently) get 3.5 on Jowell, at 888Sport, Unibet and 32Red, and get what you can on Betfair for Khan (current 4.6), to give something around evens.

    Don't bother backing the Tories, back Goldsmith on betfair and get 3.3.

    If you can do well, the Goldsmith or Khan or Jowell triple is 1.2...

    Sky Bet were an enourmous 7-4 a while back for Jowell's nomination. I totally boot filled on that.
    You and me both, Pulpstar.

    Actually the bookies are a bit slow on this market.

    Ladbrokes failed to cut Goldsmith's odds for three hours after he said yes he would run, something like that.

    What with the busy weekend for Labour in September, and the small political desks the bookies run, keep an eye out for lagging offers.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,822
    I see that there's allegations Sir Edward Heath may have been a pedophile!

    What a surprise... Who knew? Who knew? ;)
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited August 2015
    GIN1138 said:

    I see that there's allegations Sir Edward Heath may have been a pedophile!

    What a surprise... Who knew? Who knew? ;)

    He is managing to stay contemporary from beyond the grave.. without him there would have been far fewer "Brits" joining ISIS as well

    Is there no bandwagon The Ghost of Ted Heath wont jump on?!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774
    Shame on the Tories for limiting their shortlist to 4 candidates; Labour knew better, to increase the potential for interesting/crazy happenings to occur.
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    rullkorullko Posts: 161

    In a Corbyn led Labour Party , a redeemed Galloway should be tasked with regaining Scotland.

    He got 3.3% of the vote in Glasgow in 2011.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774

    I think Zac could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zac will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    I frankly don't know what airport option would be best, but would agree a decision surely should be made and made quickly, particularly as no doubt it will take a lot longer and cost a lot more than expected no matter which option is chosen (or does that only happen inevitably with defence contracts?), but I would not put it past the government to somehoe delay a decision beyond May 2016 somehow. Maybe it won't, but I can see them finding a way if they wanted.

    At least they'll decide before the Chilcott report comes out though.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    rullko said:

    In a Corbyn led Labour Party , a redeemed Galloway should be tasked with regaining Scotland.

    He got 3.3% of the vote in Glasgow in 2011.
    Standing for Labour?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,247
    taffys said:

    All sorts of hate about Heath bouncing around on threads under this story.

    Sheesh.

    Risk free to defame a dead person.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    I think Zac could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zac will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Khan endorsed by Khen - so no doubt a Corbyn endorsement to follow :D

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    A disgrace Sol Campbell didn't make the Tory shortlist.

    Likely to be the best result for Spurs in the 2015/16 season.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Why's Simon Hughes not standing for the LDs? I'd have thought he'd be a serious contender, especially if Labour do something idiotic, such as pick Khan (and at present they are very much in the mood for doing idiotic stuff).
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    On Heathrow - Boris has another rant:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11779332/Heathrow-third-runway-would-be-a-huge-mistake-bring-back-Boris-Island.html

    "If the Government wants to be long-termist it should go for the truly long- term solution, a four-runway hub, and the logical place is in the Thames estuary. The GDP growth unleashed would dwarf Heathrow, with 50 per cent more routes overall, double the number of domestic routes, to say nothing of the huge scope for much-needed housing and regeneration. That is what the Government should do – to stick with its principled stance, to keep its explicit manifesto promise."
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    LennonLennon Posts: 1,733
    As an aside, this helps to show that you can't judge the electorate by your Twitter feed - as if mine was anything to go by then Christian Wolmar would be walking it... (Clearly I follow an above average number of transport obsessives...)

    Only other comment is that apparently Siobhan Benita has talked of standing again - she did reasonably as an Independent last time out (beating UKIP and BNP, and only just behind the Lib Dems).
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    Probably worth reminding people the Mayoral election has a two-preference vote.

    Last time Boris won the first preference vote but Ken closed the gap slightly when the second preferences were countered - given 85% of first preferences went to Boris or Ken there weren't a lot of second preferences left for either candidate.

    In a very close contest it might be a factor or it might become one if a clear third place candidate formally endorsed either of the main candidates as the place for second preference votes.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    TGOHF said:

    On Heathrow - Boris has another rant:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11779332/Heathrow-third-runway-would-be-a-huge-mistake-bring-back-Boris-Island.html

    "If the Government wants to be long-termist it should go for the truly long- term solution, a four-runway hub, and the logical place is in the Thames estuary. The GDP growth unleashed would dwarf Heathrow, with 50 per cent more routes overall, double the number of domestic routes, to say nothing of the huge scope for much-needed housing and regeneration. That is what the Government should do – to stick with its principled stance, to keep its explicit manifesto promise."


    Boris Island is really the only long-term solution.

    Jamming up Heathrow even more is plane stupid.

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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    edited August 2015
    Lennon said:

    As an aside, this helps to show that you can't judge the electorate by your Twitter feed - as if mine was anything to go by then Christian Wolmar would be walking it... (Clearly I follow an above average number of transport obsessives...)

    Only other comment is that apparently Siobhan Benita has talked of standing again - she did reasonably as an Independent last time out (beating UKIP and BNP, and only just behind the Lib Dems).

    Good point about the twitter feed. I'm still not totally convinced that Corbyn will do as well as everyone thinks he will (though I'm not sure if that's just wishful thinking - there does seem to be some sort of collective madness in the air).

    As for Benita, 3.8% doesn't strike me as a great showing, especially given the opportunity she had for picking up the votes of disillusioned Labourites.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855

    Why's Simon Hughes not standing for the LDs? I'd have thought he'd be a serious contender, especially if Labour do something idiotic, such as pick Khan (and at present they are very much in the mood for doing idiotic stuff).

    Simon stood in 2004 and polled 15%, a respectable result though the LDs got 22% at both the 2005 and 2010 GEs. Unfortunately, that's not enough to get the party into the top two which is where the second preferences count.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    On Heathrow - Boris has another rant:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11779332/Heathrow-third-runway-would-be-a-huge-mistake-bring-back-Boris-Island.html

    "If the Government wants to be long-termist it should go for the truly long- term solution, a four-runway hub, and the logical place is in the Thames estuary. The GDP growth unleashed would dwarf Heathrow, with 50 per cent more routes overall, double the number of domestic routes, to say nothing of the huge scope for much-needed housing and regeneration. That is what the Government should do – to stick with its principled stance, to keep its explicit manifesto promise."


    Boris Island is really the only long-term solution.

    Jamming up Heathrow even more is plane stupid.

    What would the Chinese do ? They would build Boris island.

    History wont judge anyone who authorises LHR3 kindly.
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    A disgrace Sol Campbell didn't make the Tory shortlist.

    Likely to be the best result for Spurs in the 2015/16 season.
    You've got arguably the best striker and best goalkeeper in the EPL. Spurs are going to shock the world this season. It's time.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    stodge said:

    Why's Simon Hughes not standing for the LDs? I'd have thought he'd be a serious contender, especially if Labour do something idiotic, such as pick Khan (and at present they are very much in the mood for doing idiotic stuff).

    Simon stood in 2004 and polled 15%, a respectable result though the LDs got 22% at both the 2005 and 2010 GEs. Unfortunately, that's not enough to get the party into the top two which is where the second preferences count.

    I had forgotten that he stood in 2004. But it was a long time ago (politically) and Ken was actually quite popular in those days - though personally I've always regarded him as an utter charlatan.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Yes and they would have build it in about 5 years rather than the 15 years we would take.
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    On Heathrow - Boris has another rant:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11779332/Heathrow-third-runway-would-be-a-huge-mistake-bring-back-Boris-Island.html

    "If the Government wants to be long-termist it should go for the truly long- term solution, a four-runway hub, and the logical place is in the Thames estuary. The GDP growth unleashed would dwarf Heathrow, with 50 per cent more routes overall, double the number of domestic routes, to say nothing of the huge scope for much-needed housing and regeneration. That is what the Government should do – to stick with its principled stance, to keep its explicit manifesto promise."


    Boris Island is really the only long-term solution.

    Jamming up Heathrow even more is plane stupid.

    What would the Chinese do ? They would build Boris island.

    History wont judge anyone who authorises LHR3 kindly.
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    Lloris is not the best goalkeeper in the EPL - Courtois, De Gea (if he stays at United), and Cech are all better than him. And Kane is not the best striker in the league - Aguero, and arguably Costa are. Kane needs to replicate his last season form, for him to be in contention for that.

    Chelsea are the team to beat, this year.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,458
    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    That provides the required excuse to post this. Hide behind your sofa.

    Quite what Alistair Campbell was thinking of is beyond me. And Andy Burnham introduces Elvis!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8om47yrSZSI

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
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    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
    C5 not too long ago did a show looking at history through the POV of conspiracy theorists. One of the episodes was about Hitler not committing suicide in 1945.

    C5 really has turned into the TV version of the Daily Star.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    People will be saying tim is back next...
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    stodge said:

    Probably worth reminding people the Mayoral election has a two-preference vote.

    Last time Boris won the first preference vote but Ken closed the gap slightly when the second preferences were countered - given 85% of first preferences went to Boris or Ken there weren't a lot of second preferences left for either candidate.

    In a very close contest it might be a factor or it might become one if a clear third place candidate formally endorsed either of the main candidates as the place for second preference votes.

    I double checked my recollection about the Greens and Goldsmith. Not a clear endorsement, but even a few % could prove vital for Goldsmith.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2015
    Terrible decision IMO:

    "Giant wind farm scrapped following planning changes

    Campaigners feared proposed Nocton Fen wind farm, on land owned by Sir James Dyson, could ruin views of Lincoln cathedral"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/windpower/11774011/Giant-wind-farm-scrapped-following-planning-changes.html
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Interesting piece, Mr. Burt. I do hope ethnic quotas Khan doesn't get it.

    FPT: Mr. Charles, although I did reply to a few of his tweets, I was always courteous, even when courtesy required the biting of one's tongue. And he was polite back, making it even more perplexing.
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    If Labour's candidate isn't Tessa Jowell then the party is officially full of idiots.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think C5 and its sibling 5* has rather a talent for pitching programmes at that slightly voyeuristic market. So it's full of fly-on-wall docus and true crime. Those conspiracy shows are rather fun, some quite credible - others more Jesse Ventura/Alex Jones territory - a load of them are on Tru/Spike too IIRC.

    Was that the Hitler one that suggested he survived the bomb because the briefcase was moved? There are so many Nazi progs, they merge into one another. I did enjoy Nazi Megastructures - Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better.

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
    C5 not too long ago did a show looking at history through the POV of conspiracy theorists. One of the episodes was about Hitler not committing suicide in 1945.

    C5 really has turned into the TV version of the Daily Star.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For a supposedly clever man, Khan comes across as a bit dense. At least David Lammy has an intelligent mystery twin that occasionally appears on TV. He was clearly on holiday when Mastermind was recorded...

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Interesting piece, Mr. Burt. I do hope ethnic quotas Khan doesn't get it.

    FPT: Mr. Charles, although I did reply to a few of his tweets, I was always courteous, even when courtesy required the biting of one's tongue. And he was polite back, making it even more perplexing.

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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better. ''

    Are you old enough to remember Erich Von Daniken?

    Still brings a smile....
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    AndyJS said:

    Terrible decision IMO:

    "Giant wind farm scrapped following planning changes

    Campaigners feared proposed Nocton Fen wind farm, on land owned by Sir James Dyson, could ruin views of Lincoln cathedral"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/windpower/11774011/Giant-wind-farm-scrapped-following-planning-changes.html

    480 foot high turbines in Lincolnshire? They would have been a grotesque invasion into the landscape. You can't exactly block them from vision by planting a few trees.

    We should be investing in tidal power. Give some subsidies to get that technology viable. We have the second highest tidal range in the world. And it is dependable, 24/7/365, unlike solar and wind.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Very good thread, Mr Rabbit. I liked that Zac was the "runway favourite"....
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh yes! His book was quite the thing back in the 70s!

    There were loads of those sort of theories - great fun and quite thought provoking. Just think, L. Ron Hubbard created a worldwide religion in a similar vein.
    taffys said:

    ''Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better. ''

    Are you old enough to remember Erich Von Daniken?

    Still brings a smile....

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    A hundred conspiracy theories could be proven true tomorrow, and the vast majority would still be nonsense, there are that many of them.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774
    taffys said:

    ''Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better. ''

    Are you old enough to remember Erich Von Daniken?

    Still brings a smile....

    I recall anold HIGNFY where they referenced him, noting that the answers were alsways no to his 'questions'.

    "Could this be a spaceship designed inthe 12th century? No"
    'Were the Aztecs the first astronauts? No"

    I hope he was entertaining as that makes him sound.
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    watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    TGOHF said:

    On Heathrow - Boris has another rant:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11779332/Heathrow-third-runway-would-be-a-huge-mistake-bring-back-Boris-Island.html

    "If the Government wants to be long-termist it should go for the truly long- term solution, a four-runway hub, and the logical place is in the Thames estuary. The GDP growth unleashed would dwarf Heathrow, with 50 per cent more routes overall, double the number of domestic routes, to say nothing of the huge scope for much-needed housing and regeneration. That is what the Government should do – to stick with its principled stance, to keep its explicit manifesto promise."

    How many of Boris's constituents would agree with his views?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. kle4, those are foolish suggestions.

    As we know, the pyramids were built by space-faring aliens.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    A hundred conspiracy theories could be proven true tomorrow, and the vast majority would still be nonsense, there are that many of them.
    The Lizard People would never allow a hundred conspiracy theories to be proven true...
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I accept that the winner is likely to be one of Sadiq Khan, Tessa Jowell and Zac Goldsmith but I have to say that none of them exactly blow my skirt up. Given the current political volatility there has to be a modest chance of an outsider capturing the public imagination. So I'm staying out of this market for now.

    Really good article, TheWhiteRabbit.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,994
    rcs1000 said:

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
    Either Gatwick expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Heathrow is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Gatwick as the only logical answer. With the whole airport hanging off the M23, it makes perfect sense.

    Same level of logical reasoning and supporting evidence.
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    Plato said:

    I think C5 and its sibling 5* has rather a talent for pitching programmes at that slightly voyeuristic market. So it's full of fly-on-wall docus and true crime. Those conspiracy shows are rather fun, some quite credible - others more Jesse Ventura/Alex Jones territory - a load of them are on Tru/Spike too IIRC.

    Was that the Hitler one that suggested he survived the bomb because the briefcase was moved? There are so many Nazi progs, they merge into one another. I did enjoy Nazi Megastructures - Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better.

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
    C5 not too long ago did a show looking at history through the POV of conspiracy theorists. One of the episodes was about Hitler not committing suicide in 1945.

    C5 really has turned into the TV version of the Daily Star.
    I actually can't remember much of it - though I do recall them saying how the bones apparently found by the Russians didn't match Hitler's DNA.

    I think the programmes start off ok, but then verge on the ridiculous and comical as time goes on.

    I remember watching BBC's 'most annoying' countdown shows a couple of years back, when one of the talking heads said that documentaries are literally nazi programmes and shark docs. It's very true, although the History channel appears to show anything but history these days.

    I've never seen Nazi megastructures - though I have seen Hitler in Colour, Hitler's Hidden Drug Habbit (C4) The Nazis: A Warning From History, The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler, and some docs on the Discovery Channel about Hitler's henchmen.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    As we know, the pyramids were built by space-faring aliens.

    If there is any architecture/art that is a bit other worldly, its ancient Egyptian, for me.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071

    I remember watching BBC's 'most annoying' countdown shows a couple of years back, when one of the talking heads said that documentaries are literally nazi programmes and shark docs. It's very true, although the History channel appears to show anything but history these days.

    Remember the BBC scheduling a shark documentary immediately before unveiling the exit poll in May? I think even they would have baulked at a Nazi programme.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
    Either Gatwick expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Heathrow is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Gatwick as the only logical answer. With the whole airport hanging off the M23, it makes perfect sense.

    Same level of logical reasoning and supporting evidence.
    Would you like a longer and better argued piece? I can do that too :-)
  • Options

    I remember watching BBC's 'most annoying' countdown shows a couple of years back, when one of the talking heads said that documentaries are literally nazi programmes and shark docs. It's very true, although the History channel appears to show anything but history these days.

    Remember the BBC scheduling a shark documentary immediately before unveiling the exit poll in May? I think even they would have baulked at a Nazi programme.
    No, I don't remember that!

    In fact I think the only show I recall in the run to the GE was Charlie's Brooker's 'Election Wipe'.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774

    Mr. kle4, those are foolish suggestions.

    As we know, the pyramids were built by space-faring aliens.

    That's absurd, human slaves built them...at the direction of space faring aliens.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    #Austerity

    "Taxpayers are footing the bill for illegal migrants to be driven in private taxis from Dover to London.

    The young migrants, who have successfully made their way to the UK from Calais, are being moved by Kent County Council, after the authority reached ‘breaking point’.

    The number of asylum-seeking children in the county is said to have almost doubled since March, with the council’s social services department running out of places to house them.

    A taxi driver told the Telegraph that their company had made ‘around seven of eight’ journeys from Dover to London in the past week, with a bill reaching almost £1,200."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/migrants-taken-from-dover-to-london-by-taxi-at-the-expense-of-the-taxpayer-10434230.html
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
    Either Gatwick expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Heathrow is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Gatwick as the only logical answer. With the whole airport hanging off the M23, it makes perfect sense.

    Same level of logical reasoning and supporting evidence.
    Would you like a longer and better argued piece? I can do that too :-)
    Robert. Barnesian lives in Barnes. I doubt you have the arguments to persuade him. ;)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. kle4, ah, my mistake. But you knew what I meant. There was even a ten series documentary programme on the subject.

    Mr. Isam, crazy. We should stop hurling money at those not proven to be asylum seekers, close the tunnel until it's secured and alter the law to encourage illegal immigrants to shop those who unlawfully employ them.

    I suspect none of that will happen.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    Himmler the nice Nazi is on BBC4 again - well that's the gist of the title!

    There's a glut of atomic bomb docus on now.

    Plato said:

    I think C5 and its sibling 5* has rather a talent for pitching programmes at that slightly voyeuristic market. So it's full of fly-on-wall docus and true crime. Those conspiracy shows are rather fun, some quite credible - others more Jesse Ventura/Alex Jones territory - a load of them are on Tru/Spike too IIRC.

    Was that the Hitler one that suggested he survived the bomb because the briefcase was moved? There are so many Nazi progs, they merge into one another. I did enjoy Nazi Megastructures - Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better.

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
    C5 not too long ago did a show looking at history through the POV of conspiracy theorists. One of the episodes was about Hitler not committing suicide in 1945.

    C5 really has turned into the TV version of the Daily Star.
    I actually can't remember much of it - though I do recall them saying how the bones apparently found by the Russians didn't match Hitler's DNA.

    I think the programmes start off ok, but then verge on the ridiculous and comical as time goes on.

    I remember watching BBC's 'most annoying' countdown shows a couple of years back, when one of the talking heads said that documentaries are literally nazi programmes and shark docs. It's very true, although the History channel appears to show anything but history these days.

    I've never seen Nazi megastructures - though I have seen Hitler in Colour, Hitler's Hidden Drug Habbit (C4) The Nazis: A Warning From History, The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler, and some docs on the Discovery Channel about Hitler's henchmen.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think you mean, mice.
    kle4 said:

    Mr. kle4, those are foolish suggestions.

    As we know, the pyramids were built by space-faring aliens.

    That's absurd, human slaves built them...at the direction of space faring aliens.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
    Either Gatwick expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Heathrow is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Gatwick as the only logical answer. With the whole airport hanging off the M23, it makes perfect sense.

    Same level of logical reasoning and supporting evidence.
    Would you like a longer and better argued piece? I can do that too :-)
    I for one would find that useful. We are never going to build a new airport and, even as a Sussex resident, the Gatwick option would seem to be less detrimental to innocents lives and the public purse. The only obvious reason for building at Heathrow would seem to be to encourage more international travellers to change planes there, that is to say people who are passing through in transit. The price in human, environmental and cash terms seems awfully steep in order to provide some marginal employment and the convenience of people not coming to or from the UK.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,774

    Mr. kle4, ah, my mistake. But you knew what I meant. There was even a ten series documentary programme on the subject..

    Indeed - in which they further demonstrated that people make sci-fi TV shows about true conspiracies, for the express purpose of making the truth seem farfetched, IIRC. Dastardly!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Indeed, Mr. kle4. The old double bluff fools some people, but not me.

    I do wish they'd made Teal'c PI into a real series.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,994
    edited August 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Zak could win. Especially if it's Khan. Floating, casual or "not that bothered really" voters will weigh it up based on their superficial impressions of the two main candidates, as they did on May 7th in the GE. Surely Zak will outshine all of them, particularly once he becomes more well known and appears on the box more often?

    The big issue he has is Heathrow, particularly if the Government decides - as it surely must - before May 2016 that Heathrow expansion is the only tenable game in town.


    Either Heathrow expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Gatwick is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Heathrow as the only logical answer. With Cross Rail finished, and the whole airport hanging off the M25, it makes perfect sense.

    The issue is that there are marginal Conservative constituencies in South West London. And I think that makes it an overtly political, rather than economic, decision.

    As a Londoner, I sincerely hope we get Heathrow Expansion, but I fear that the can will be kicked down the road, to the detriment of all.
    Either Gatwick expansion or The Boris Island are sensible answers. Adding another runway at Heathrow is not. And the Boris Island is too expensive, which leaves Gatwick as the only logical answer. With the whole airport hanging off the M23, it makes perfect sense.

    Same level of logical reasoning and supporting evidence.
    Would you like a longer and better argued piece? I can do that too :-)
    I've read the 344 page Davies Report and the 66 page technical report on economy impacts. I've also read the 7 page expert panelist wider impacts review.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/airports-commission-final-report-economy-impacts

    The comments on exaggeration by media and their overall conclusions are interesting.

    If you have anything material to add I'd be interested to hear it. :-)

    I'm working with Zac on this.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited August 2015
    "Customs checks at Heathrow are being abandoned at busy times to help cut queues, a damning report has found.

    Border staff stopped carrying out checks despite flights arriving from 'high-risk' countries.

    Inspectors were told that bosses at Terminal 5 were more focussed on 'managing queues' which meant there was often no customs checks at all.

    The revelations about border controls at Britain's biggest airport comes amid fresh criticism of the government's immigration policy.

    Ministers today announced a crackdown on landlords who rent properties to illegal immigrants, and yesterday launched a consultation on cutting payments given to failed asylum families.

    While the focus in recent days has been on Channel Tunnel and ferry ports, a report into controls at Heathrow will also raise fresh questions about how stringent checks are."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183849/Customs-checks-abandoned-Heathrow-Termianl-5-busy-times-help-cut-queues-inspectors-warn.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I love really dated films. The Net with Sandra Bullock is hilarious conspiracy fodder c1995.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46qKHq7REI4
    kle4 said:

    Mr. kle4, ah, my mistake. But you knew what I meant. There was even a ten series documentary programme on the subject..

    Indeed - in which they further demonstrated that people make sci-fi TV shows about true conspiracies, for the express purpose of making the truth seem farfetched, IIRC. Dastardly!
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    Mr. kle4, ah, my mistake. But you knew what I meant. There was even a ten series documentary programme on the subject.

    Mr. Isam, crazy. We should stop hurling money at those not proven to be asylum seekers, close the tunnel until it's secured and alter the law to encourage illegal immigrants to shop those who unlawfully employ them.

    I suspect none of that will happen.

    I still think we should set up a ferry shuttle between Calais and Libya and see how many times we get the same people back! I'm sure they'd find another safe country if they were true asylum seekers.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:

    Himmler the nice Nazi is on BBC4 again - well that's the gist of the title!

    There's a glut of atomic bomb docus on now.

    Plato said:

    I think C5 and its sibling 5* has rather a talent for pitching programmes at that slightly voyeuristic market. So it's full of fly-on-wall docus and true crime. Those conspiracy shows are rather fun, some quite credible - others more Jesse Ventura/Alex Jones territory - a load of them are on Tru/Spike too IIRC.

    Was that the Hitler one that suggested he survived the bomb because the briefcase was moved? There are so many Nazi progs, they merge into one another. I did enjoy Nazi Megastructures - Hitler really did believe in Big Is Better.

    rcs1000 said:

    Re accusations of child abuse and political affiliation.

    If the lists I have seen are anywhere near correct, there are people from across the political spectrum that will stand accused of pretty horrible crimes. The number of possible offenders is staggering. Worse: people who should have known better, seem to have been (implicitly or explicitly) guilty of an enormous cover-up, particularly in the mid 1980s.

    Funny how loony conspiracy theories all seem to be coming true isn't it?

    What, has Elvis been found?
    C5 not too long ago did a show looking at history through the POV of conspiracy theorists. One of the episodes was about Hitler not committing suicide in 1945.

    C5 really has turned into the TV version of the Daily Star.
    I actually can't remember much of it - though I do recall them saying how the bones apparently found by the Russians didn't match Hitler's DNA.

    I think the programmes start off ok, but then verge on the ridiculous and comical as time goes on.

    I remember watching BBC's 'most annoying' countdown shows a couple of years back, when one of the talking heads said that documentaries are literally nazi programmes and shark docs. It's very true, although the History channel appears to show anything but history these days.

    I've never seen Nazi megastructures - though I have seen Hitler in Colour, Hitler's Hidden Drug Habbit (C4) The Nazis: A Warning From History, The Dark Charisma of Adolf Hitler, and some docs on the Discovery Channel about Hitler's henchmen.
    Just checked out the Himmler doc - really weird, that one....

    Space documentaries are quite popular as well.

    Btw, I'm watching one of your favourites - Millionaire Matchmaker right now ;) This show is something else.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001

    Mr. kle4, ah, my mistake. But you knew what I meant. There was even a ten series documentary programme on the subject.

    Mr. Isam, crazy. We should stop hurling money at those not proven to be asylum seekers, close the tunnel until it's secured and alter the law to encourage illegal immigrants to shop those who unlawfully employ them.

    I suspect none of that will happen.

    Close the tunnel?

    Let's work out the rough costs to the British economy from that, shall we.

    Firstly, it will mean that rail services between London and Paris stop. They carry more than 70% of passenger traffic between the UK and France. Because of the nature of "slots" at airports, flights would be slow to respond. Eurostar would almost certainly be able to claim £10s or £100s of millions in damages from the UK government as it would need to refund customers, and their costs would continue unabated.

    Secondly, freight traffic would be severely disrupted. More than £800m a week of British exports leave via the tunnel. And while boats could take up some of the slack, there isn't a huge amount of spare ferry capacity right now. To replace the tunnel would require dozens of new ferries to be brought on stream (bought from other operators, not so easy, or contracted to be built, which is a four-to-five year process), and ports that have been mothballed would need to be brought back on-line. Of course, doing all this would massively increase the likelihood that people would be able to get into the UK by ship, as we wouldn't have security measures in place.

    The two most important pieces of infrastructure in the UK are the Channel Tunnel and Heathrow Airport. Closing either of them to stop 150 migrants a day shows a total absence of economic common sense. It would cost tens of thousands of jobs, and would incur massive legal liabilities on the government and taxpayers.

    If you want to stop illegal immigration, beef up security at the tunnel and impose proper fines on firms who employ illegal workers. (It's absurd that fines in the UK are one tenth of the level of those on the continent.)

    But don't inflict massive damage on British industry by closing the major artery for British exports.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Miss Plato, must admit I have grave concerns about biometrics and other high technology being over-applied.

    We've seen hackers get in to take control of cars (brakes, at least), and the online kettle* that could be hacked.

    *Who the hell wanted an online kettle?

    Technology's fantastic but that doesn't mean it can't be overused, and open us up to needless security risks.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    14yrs! http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-08-03/first-city-trader-convicted-over-libor-is-jailed-for-14-years/
    Tom Hayes, who has been sentenced to 14 years in prison for manipulating Libor rates, built up a network of traders to help him carry out the fraud, the prosecution said.

    Hayes was said to have once offered to pay a contact 100,000 US dollars if he kept the Libor rate as low as possible.

    Mukul Chawla QC,prosecuting, said: "On an almost daily basis he set out to dishonestly manipulate or rig Libor at his bank and other banks."

    "The motive was a simple one: it was greed", he added.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    Mr. 1000, if the cost is so monumental, we should spend to raise security to immense levels. But if a temporary closure is necessary, then close it.

    Eurostar should not be able to claim anything, as it's failing to keep its own site secure and risking the UK's national security. Haulage firms are a different matter.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001
    I would point out there are no restrictions on illegal immigrants going to Switzerland, much higher wages, and much lower unemployment in Switzerland than in the UK.

    The difference is that illegal immigrants can't get jobs there, don't get accommodation there, and don't get £37/week allowance.

    Change the incentives, and the illegal immigrants will go somewhere else.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    rcs1000 said:

    I would point out there are no restrictions on illegal immigrants going to Switzerland, much higher wages, and much lower unemployment in Switzerland than in the UK.

    The difference is that illegal immigrants can't get jobs there, don't get accommodation there, and don't get £37/week allowance.

    Change the incentives, and the illegal immigrants will go somewhere else.

    Wehave a big cultural draw.

    Among people I've spoken to in other countries, the US is #1 and the UK #2 in the "everything will be better there. don't ask how, it will" stakes.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001

    Mr. 1000, if the cost is so monumental, we should spend to raise security to immense levels. But if a temporary closure is necessary, then close it.

    Eurostar should not be able to claim anything, as it's failing to keep its own site secure and risking the UK's national security. Haulage firms are a different matter.

    Eurostar does not own the tunnel and is not responsible for its security. They have the franchise to run the train service between London and Paris. And they paid the British Government (and Eurotunnel and others) a lot of money for that privilege.

    If we restrict their ability to do what we promised them, they will be able to to sue us for hundreds of millions of pounds.
  • Options
    If we're going to build a brand new hub airport, then it should definitely not be built in London, it dominates the country enough as it is. Other parts of the country are in dire need of investment, perhaps expanding Birmingham and linking it up with HS2 would be an idea*

    *disclaimer: I have no idea whether this is possible or not.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    Another aspect of the immigration issue.
    Social workers across southern England have warned they are facing overwhelming pressure from the number unaccompanied migrant children.

    Many of the youngsters, said to be traumatised and unable to speak English, are being held in special centres while long-term care is arranged. Councils are responsible for all costs associated with child asylum seekers until they are 25.

    Official Home Office data shows that there were a total of 1,986 asylum applications from migrants aged under 18 in the year ending in March. This was an increase of 46 per cent compared with the previous year's tally of 1,356, and the claims represented 8 per cent of all asylum applications over the period.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3184021/Number-lone-child-asylum-seekers-Britain-soars-50-year-councils-struggle-cope.html#ixzz3hlZT9OyX
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JeyyLowe: Have you joined Labour to vote for Corbyn? I want to talk to you a bit before deadline plz. RT if yr followers interested. Email in my bio
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,001

    Mr. 1000, if the cost is so monumental, we should spend to raise security to immense levels. But if a temporary closure is necessary, then close it.

    Eurostar should not be able to claim anything, as it's failing to keep its own site secure and risking the UK's national security. Haulage firms are a different matter.

    Everything in life (and government) is a cost benefit analysis. We could cut road deaths to practically zero by reducing the speed limit to 20 miles per hour. But the economic damage this would do would be too great. We could treble the police budget to cut muggings by a certain percentage. And we could buy the most expensive drugs always to treat everything. All of these things have costs, and we need to be honest about the costs.

    What level of increase in unemployment or increase in taxes are you willing to accept to cut the number of illegal immigrants a day from - say - 150 to 50? 10,000 unemployed and £1bn in extra taxes?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,984
    edited August 2015
    Mr. 1000, so they're not responsible for the security of their own trains either?

    In any event, we agree on altering the law to discourage migration and penalise those who employ illegal labour. And, I suspect, that the current response from the government is nowhere near good enough.

    Edited extra bit:
    Mr. 1000, I'd first want to calculate the cost of 55,000 illegal immigrants, both financial and security.
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