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The next Chancellor of the Exchequer market that Ladbrokes have is a hard market to assess. There’s two major known unknowns, will David Cameron stand down in this parliament (potentially to maximise George Osborne’s chances of succeeding him) or will the result of the next election be the trigger for the Osborne’s successor?

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GeoffM

First!

SouthamObserver

OT - Cilla's untimely death will put the coverage the Labour leadership election has received from the MSM into some kind of perspective.

The_Apocalypse

FPT:

Sandpit said:

We are about to see the same played out in the USA over the coming year. It's very difficult for a party to elect someone who can bring together the country as well as the party. Look at Labour's reaction to Liz Kendall and new-found hatred of Blair for more information.

New-found? Labour supporters began hating Blair in 2004, really. I think the more left-wing parts of Labour were looking for reasons to hate Blair, and Iraq gave to them. Tbf, I'm not Blair's biggest fan. I'm pretty much critical of his education policy, on some of his health polices, on his dealing with foreign affairs and the EU etc....

Plato

Oh, I'd like Justine Greening for this. She'd be awesome. And her CV is great for it - in the last HMG, she was also Economic Sec to HMT. First woman as CoE would be great optics too. I fear she can be a bit difficult though which may explain her being parked in DfiD.

Greening was born in Rotherham, where she attended Oakwood Comprehensive School.[2] She is a graduate of the University of Southampton, where she studied Economics,[3] and has an MBA from the London Business School. Before entering Parliament, she trained and qualified[4] as an accountant, before working as an accountant/finance manager for, amongst others, Price Waterhouse Coopers, GlaxoSmithKline and Centrica.

The_Apocalypse

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

justin124

SouthamObserver said:

OT - Cilla's untimely death will put the coverage the Labour leadership election has received from the MSM into some kind of perspective.

The Tories have lost a voter there - but ,alas, not an MP.

kle4

SouthamObserver said:

OT - Cilla's untimely death will put the coverage the Labour leadership election has received from the MSM into some kind of perspective.

Sure, but that it has received any coverage at all of note, which it has, is probably more than it would have with a more boring race.

Sandpit

Given that we expect the incumbent to remain in place until Cameron leaves No 10, this is very much linked to the manner of DC's departure and the name of his successor. There's a good chance it happens at the election, therefore all the Tories are shorter than they should be. SJ should be a lay at those odds if any bookies are offering?

Plato

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

HurstLlama

Plato said:

Oh, I'd like Justine Greening for this. She'd be awesome. And her CV is great for it - in the last HMG, she was also Economic Sec to HMT

Greening was born in Rotherham, where she attended Oakwood Comprehensive School.[2] She is a graduate of the University of Southampton, where she studied Economics,[3] and has an MBA from the London Business School. Before entering Parliament, she trained and qualified[4] as an accountant, before working as an accountant/finance manager for, amongst others, Price Waterhouse Coopers, GlaxoSmithKline and Centrica.

Unfortunately , Miss Plato, Greening in her current post has demonstrated that she is more than biddable by her own civil servants. In fact I don't think I can remember a minister who was house trained so quickly. The speed she went from "we will only spend when there is demonstrable value for money for the British taxpayer" to appearing in a photo op alongside some charity charlatans promising to deliver wimmins' rights to Gujarat, or some such, was astonishing. I think her political career has come to a shuddering halt and probably rightly so.

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

I completely agree - I think he's very overrated, but then I think that for a lot of Osborne's acolytes. There also seems to be this assumption that ethnic minorities will start to vote Tory in droves if they elect him, which I don't think will happen.

Plato

Can you recall what heralded her fall from grace? She was Transport Sec, then exiled to DfiD without an option.

She must have irritated someone a lot to get that watery grave. Only Andrew Mitchell ever wanted a gig like that.

HurstLlama said:

Plato said:

Oh, I'd like Justine Greening for this. She'd be awesome. And her CV is great for it - in the last HMG, she was also Economic Sec to HMT

Greening was born in Rotherham, where she attended Oakwood Comprehensive School.[2] She is a graduate of the University of Southampton, where she studied Economics,[3] and has an MBA from the London Business School. Before entering Parliament, she trained and qualified[4] as an accountant, before working as an accountant/finance manager for, amongst others, Price Waterhouse Coopers, GlaxoSmithKline and Centrica.

Unfortunately , Miss Plato, Greening in her current post has demonstrated that she is more than biddable by her own civil servants. In fact I don't think I can remember a minister who was house trained so quickly. The speed she went from "we will only spend when there is demonstrable value for money for the British taxpayer" to appearing in a photo op alongside some charity charlatans promising to deliver wimmins' rights to Gujarat, or some such, was astonishing. I think her political career has come to a shuddering halt and probably rightly so.

kle4

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

He has a couple of years to prove himself I guess, as he was only given a seat at the top table late in the last parliament, but now he's there from the off. But if Osborne does succeed Cameron, Javid might gain yet more years to build a reputation, as Osborne himself has managed, going from no hoper to possible favourite for next leader, given time for his qualities to supposed come good.

JohnO

Justine crossed George and that's never good for career prospects.

By the way, are there any odds that George might become Tory leader unopposed? Yes, I know, echoes of Gordon! Because that's what I think will happen if - and it's a mighty if - the economy stays in good shape and the referendum is won.

Plato

I'm not keen on Ozzie for PM. I don't think it's his skill set and after such a long good run as CoE, I'd prefer him to end with a good rep, not a busted flush.

kle4 said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

He has a couple of years to prove himself I guess, as he was only given a seat at the top table late in the last parliament, but now he's there from the off. But if Osborne does succeed Cameron, Javid might gain yet more years to build a reputation, as Osborne himself has managed, going from no hoper to possible favourite for next leader, given time for his qualities to supposed come good.

HYUFD

NBC/WSJ GOP poll
Trump – 19% (1)
Walker – 15& (17)
Bush – 14% (22)
Carson – 10% (11)
Cruz – 9% (4)
Huckabee – 6% (9)
Paul – 6% (7)
Rubio – 5% (14)
Christie – 3% (4)
Kasich – 3% (1)
Perry – 3% (5)
Jindal – 1% (0)
Santorum – 1% (0)
Fiorina – * (2)
Graham – * (1)
Pataki – * (*)
Gilmore – * (-)
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/trump-surges-new-nbc-news-wsj-poll-n402036?cid=sm_fb&hootPostID=a270ede53549123d945d5da0d2823424

Plato

Ah, time to stick a fork in her.

JohnO said:

Justine crossed George and that's never good for career prospects.

By the way, are there any odds that George might become Tory leader unopposed? yes, echoes of Gordon! Because that's what I think will happen if - and it's a mighty if - the economy stays in good shape and the referendum is won!

GeoffM

JohnO said:

Justine crossed George and that's never good for career prospects.

By the way, are there any odds that George might become Tory leader unopposed? Yes, I know, echoes of Gordon! Because that's what I think will happen if - and it's a mighty if - the economy stays in good shape and the referendum is won.

Which referendum result do you define as "won"?

JohnO

Plato said:

Ah, time to stick a fork in her.

JohnO said:

Justine crossed George and that's never good for career prospects.

By the way, are there any odds that George might become Tory leader unopposed? yes, echoes of Gordon! Because that's what I think will happen if - and it's a mighty if - the economy stays in good shape and the referendum is won!

A little excessive I would venture.

kle4

Plato said:

I'm not keen on Ozzie for PM. I don't think it's his skill set and after such a long good run as CoE, I'd prefer him to end with a good rep, not a busted flush.

kle4 said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

He has a couple of years to prove himself I guess, as he was only given a seat at the top table late in the last parliament, but now he's there from the off. But if Osborne does succeed Cameron, Javid might gain yet more years to build a reputation, as Osborne himself has managed, going from no hoper to possible favourite for next leader, given time for his qualities to supposed come good.

I assumed that was his plan all along, recognising that he just lacked that extra something to make the jump to PM and so making the best of it by helping not hindering Cameron and setting himself up as the powerbroker of the next PM, but can anyone resist the temptation to go for it? He's got power and influence, now more people are talking about him as though he could do it - even if he did previously doubt he could, it'd be easy to see him thinking he has a shot and so going for it.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Justine Greening, or possibly Priti Patel, will surely be the next Prime Minister.

Mr. Llama, as I said before, it's my view that Greening wanted to curb aid spending but the orders from Number Ten (Cameron having a fetish of 0.7% aid spending for some damned reason) stopped that.

JohnO

GeoffM said:

JohnO said:

Justine crossed George and that's never good for career prospects.

By the way, are there any odds that George might become Tory leader unopposed? Yes, I know, echoes of Gordon! Because that's what I think will happen if - and it's a mighty if - the economy stays in good shape and the referendum is won.

Which referendum result do you define as "won"?

EU...in which I'm expecting a Yes majority of 15% or so.

TheWhiteRabbit

If Biden does stand, the Democratic race will be just as interesting - but in a different way - to the GOP.

Sandpit

Plato said:

I'm not keen on Ozzie for PM. I don't think it's his skill set and after such a long good run as CoE, I'd prefer him to end with a good rep, not a busted flush.

kle4 said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

He has a couple of years to prove himself I guess, as he was only given a seat at the top table late in the last parliament, but now he's there from the off. But if Osborne does succeed Cameron, Javid might gain yet more years to build a reputation, as Osborne himself has managed, going from no hoper to possible favourite for next leader, given time for his qualities to supposed come good.

Yep, would be too much shades of Brown. I can see GO realising this, and preferring to play the Mandelson figure - in which case SJ could be next up for the top job.

Charles

@HurstLlama FPT

I think you're thinking about the Devereux Arms, right next to the Edgar Wallace. The whole area is the former site of the Devereux family's London compound (they were the Earls of Essex in Tudor times - clue is in the street name...)

You're right, though, that it is far less nice

SimonStClare

SouthamObserver said:

OT - Cilla's untimely death will put the coverage the Labour leadership election has received from the MSM into some kind of perspective.

Hmm. I think you mean the brouhaha over Cecil the lion – the Labour leadership with all its wailing from all and sundry is mana from heaven for the Westminster lobby and PBers alike.

Charles

Plato said:

Can you recall what heralded her fall from grace? She was Transport Sec, then exiled to DfiD without an option.

She must have irritated someone a lot to get that watery grave. Only Andrew Mitchell ever wanted a gig like that.

HurstLlama said:

Plato said:

Oh, I'd like Justine Greening for this. She'd be awesome. And her CV is great for it - in the last HMG, she was also Economic Sec to HMT

Greening was born in Rotherham, where she attended Oakwood Comprehensive School.[2] She is a graduate of the University of Southampton, where she studied Economics,[3] and has an MBA from the London Business School. Before entering Parliament, she trained and qualified[4] as an accountant, before working as an accountant/finance manager for, amongst others, Price Waterhouse Coopers, GlaxoSmithKline and Centrica.

Unfortunately , Miss Plato, Greening in her current post has demonstrated that she is more than biddable by her own civil servants. In fact I don't think I can remember a minister who was house trained so quickly. The speed she went from "we will only spend when there is demonstrable value for money for the British taxpayer" to appearing in a photo op alongside some charity charlatans promising to deliver wimmins' rights to Gujarat, or some such, was astonishing. I think her political career has come to a shuddering halt and probably rightly so.

She said that, as MP for Putney, she had to vote against a Heathrow expansion rather than assessing the options with an open mind

The_Apocalypse

I think Osborne is politically ambitious enough to be bidding for the top job. Osborne hates Brown - he hates him enough, to not see his own parallels with Brown. He sees himself on the 'Blair' side of events - this is the main who actually loves 'The Journey' after all. He's also clearly building a base within the party, and attempting to get as many acolytes as possible into places of influence - that's clear evidence of his leadership ambitions.

Sandpit

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

HurstLlama

Morris_Dancer said:

Good afternoon, everyone.

Justine Greening, or possibly Priti Patel, will surely be the next Prime Minister.

Mr. Llama, as I said before, it's my view that Greening wanted to curb aid spending but the orders from Number Ten (Cameron having a fetish of 0.7% aid spending for some damned reason) stopped that.

Then, Mr. Dancer, if Greening really did have the backbone necessary to be Prime Minister she could either have told Cameron to stick the DfID job where the sun shineth not or, having taken it, really got a grip on the Dept and ensured our money was only spent wisely. She did neither and I don't know how she sleeps at night (presumably she left her conscience in Cameron's office).

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Llama, she's cunningly lulling Cameron and Osborne into a false sense of security.

felix

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

I completely agree - I think he's very overrated, but then I think that for a lot of Osborne's acolytes. There also seems to be this assumption that ethnic minorities will start to vote Tory in droves if they elect him, which I don't think will happen.

I believe there is evidence from the last election that Hindus and Sikhs are already 'trending' Tory while Muslims and A/Cs remain more strongly Labour. The ethnic minority vote is increasingly fractured and that is a trend likely to increase over time.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Felix, A/Cs?

TheScreamingEagles

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Sandpit

Charles said:

Plato said:

Can you recall what heralded her fall from grace? She was Transport Sec, then exiled to DfiD without an option.

She must have irritated someone a lot to get that watery grave. Only Andrew Mitchell ever wanted a gig like that.

HurstLlama said:

Plato said:

Oh, I'd like Justine Greening for this. She'd be awesome. And her CV is great for it - in the last HMG, she was also Economic Sec to HMT

Greening was born in Rotherham, where she attended Oakwood Comprehensive School.[2] She is a graduate of the University of Southampton, where she studied Economics,[3] and has an MBA from the London Business School. Before entering Parliament, she trained and qualified[4] as an accountant, before working as an accountant/finance manager for, amongst others, Price Waterhouse Coopers, GlaxoSmithKline and Centrica.

Unfortunately , Miss Plato, Greening in her current post has demonstrated that she is more than biddable by her own civil servants. In fact I don't think I can remember a minister who was house trained so quickly. The speed she went from "we will only spend when there is demonstrable value for money for the British taxpayer" to appearing in a photo op alongside some charity charlatans promising to deliver wimmins' rights to Gujarat, or some such, was astonishing. I think her political career has come to a shuddering halt and probably rightly so.

She said that, as MP for Putney, she had to vote against a Heathrow expansion rather than assessing the options with an open mind
Surely the new runway North of the existing airport would lead to fewer planes overflying Putney?

RobD

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Llama, she's cunningly lulling Cameron and Osborne into a false sense of security.

Like Caesar at Dyrrhachium leading to Pharsalus?

HurstLlama

@Charles

"... they were the Earls of Essex in Tudor times - clue is in the street name..."

Thanks, Mr. Charles, I deserved that.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. D, when a game's taking so long anticipation diminishes rather than rising, I think.

And it probably won't get made anyway. Just look at Final Fantasy VII. Or The Last Guardian. Or Shenmue III.

Oh...

Well, maybe it will get made, but it's still taken a long time. Like Duke Nukem.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Eagles, no.

RobD

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The_Apocalypse

felix said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

I completely agree - I think he's very overrated, but then I think that for a lot of Osborne's acolytes. There also seems to be this assumption that ethnic minorities will start to vote Tory in droves if they elect him, which I don't think will happen.

I believe there is evidence from the last election that Hindus and Sikhs are already 'trending' Tory while Muslims and A/Cs remain more strongly Labour. The ethnic minority vote is increasingly fractured and that is a trend likely to increase over time.

Are you sighting the British Future results? That survey and the accelerated movement of ethnic minorities towards the Tories has been doubted: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9432#comments

So the Conservatives do seem to be making some progress amongst ethnic minority voters… but it’s probably only a modest advance, as yet the huge Labour advantage amongst BME voters remains almost as large as it was at previous elections.

TheScreamingEagles

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The piece is headlined "If AV is good enough for the House of Lords and electing Tory leaders then it is good enough for the country"

HurstLlama

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Llama, she's cunningly lulling Cameron and Osborne into a false sense of security.

I think I prefer the theory that she is an over-promoted doris whose return to the back-benches or, better, private life should not be delayed. Honestly just follow her twitter feed to see what sort of politician she is - it reads like a spoof account.

RobD

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The piece is headlined "If AV is good enough for the House of Lords and electing Tory leaders then it is good enough for the country"

AV - voting system for the most noble and ancient hereditary peers, and the convicts (not the leader of the Tory party).


Doesn't the Tory leadership contest actually consist of multiple FPTP rounds? I'll get my coat....

TheScreamingEagles

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Eagles, no.

Yeah, you're right, very few people can match the awesomeness of Caesar. She's lulling Dave & George into the same sense of false security that Carthage lured Rome into after the Battle of Zama.

Now, back to building a Death Star*

*A lego one, not an actual one.

TheScreamingEagles

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The piece is headlined "If AV is good enough for the House of Lords and electing Tory leaders then it is good enough for the country"

AV - voting system for the most noble and ancient hereditary peers, and the convicts (not the leader of the Tory party).


Doesn't the Tory leadership contest actually consist of multiple FPTP rounds? I'll get my coat....

In Tory leadership elections, the candidate with the lowest vote in each round is eliminated, until there are two left, and the winner has to get over 50%.

Sounds a lot like AV......

RobD

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The piece is headlined "If AV is good enough for the House of Lords and electing Tory leaders then it is good enough for the country"

AV - voting system for the most noble and ancient hereditary peers, and the convicts (not the leader of the Tory party).


Doesn't the Tory leadership contest actually consist of multiple FPTP rounds? I'll get my coat....

In Tory leadership elections, the candidate with the lowest vote in each round is eliminated, until there are two left, and the winner has to get over 50%.

Sounds a lot like AV......

But it ain't. It looks like AV, it smells like AV, but by golly it's actually multi-round FPTP.

felix

The_Apocalypse said:

felix said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

I completely agree - I think he's very overrated, but then I think that for a lot of Osborne's acolytes. There also seems to be this assumption that ethnic minorities will start to vote Tory in droves if they elect him, which I don't think will happen.

I believe there is evidence from the last election that Hindus and Sikhs are already 'trending' Tory while Muslims and A/Cs remain more strongly Labour. The ethnic minority vote is increasingly fractured and that is a trend likely to increase over time.

Are you sighting the British Future results? That survey and the accelerated movement of ethnic minorities towards the Tories has been doubted: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9432#comments

So the Conservatives do seem to be making some progress amongst ethnic minority voters… but it’s probably only a modest advance, as yet the huge Labour advantage amongst BME voters remains almost as large as it was at previous elections.

I wasn't citing [not 'sighting'] any particular survey but agree it is a modest movement - enough for what I suggested in my original comment to be valid.

Danny565

Since we're on the topic of Osborne being PM, can I take the chance to again point out that IPSOS-MORI found less people wanted him to be PM than Andy Burnham? There's no evidence apart from sheer wishful thinking that the public would take at all well to Osborne as PM, let alone this laughable idea that he would be unbeatable in 2020.

From a purely political/strategic perspective, Boris as next leader seems like a no-brainer to me, he is the only Tory who can reach people that Cameron can't (young people especially seem to love him). However there is the not inconsiderable matter of whether Tory MPs think he's actually up to the job of being PM, of course.

GeoffM

RobD said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

Duke Nukem Forever was the standard bearer for that theory for 15 years but even that game appeared in the end. And it promptly disappointed everyone, to continue the analogy!

Plato

Boris = Totally Unsuitable.

I'd never vote for him to be Party Leader.

Danny565 said:

Since we're on the topic of Osborne being PM, can I take the chance to again point out that IPSOS-MORI found less people wanted him to be PM than Andy Burnham?

From a purely political/strategic perspective, Boris as next leader seems like a no-brainer to me, he is the only Tory who can reach people that Cameron can't (young people especially seem to love him). However there is the not inconsiderable matter of whether Tory MPs think he's actually up to the job of being PM, of course.

RobD

GeoffM said:

RobD said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

Duke Nukem Forever was the standard bearer for that theory for 15 years but even that game appeared in the end. And it promptly disappointed everyone, to continue the analogy!

Pressure is on for the big AV thread, TSE!

Bugger, I've just delayed it another week.

MTimT

TheWhiteRabbit said:

If Biden does stand, the Democratic race will be just as interesting - but in a different way - to the GOP.

If Biden enters the race, it will be taken as 'permission' for other serious Dems to jump in too. The problem is that their bench of talent with a national profile (other than its very old and worn leadership) is pretty thin. I wonder if Bloomberg will register as a Dem in order to be able to run.

tyson

SouthamObserver said:

OT - Cilla's untimely death will put the coverage the Labour leadership election has received from the MSM into some kind of perspective.

Southam- I don't think three score years and ten, plus a couple for good measure is untimely. It's not a bad age, and it doesn't seem that Cilla suffered the terrible afflictions of geriatric ageing that for instance Thatcher and many octogenarians experience.

It strikes me that going on, and on and on, no matter what is very much overrated.

GeoffM

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Felix, A/Cs?

Air Conditioning

The_Apocalypse

felix said:

The_Apocalypse said:

felix said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Javid has done enough to justify his reputation. There are shades of Chuka there. Nice suit, what else? He's got a great flyleaf back story - but that only goes so far.

The_Apocalypse said:

LMAO at Rachel Reeves being there

On Osborne's successor I think it'll be PB Tory favourite Sajid Javid. Hancock could get the job though his progress through the ranks hasn't be that fast for someone who is practically Osborne 2.0.

I completely agree - I think he's very overrated, but then I think that for a lot of Osborne's acolytes. There also seems to be this assumption that ethnic minorities will start to vote Tory in droves if they elect him, which I don't think will happen.

I believe there is evidence from the last election that Hindus and Sikhs are already 'trending' Tory while Muslims and A/Cs remain more strongly Labour. The ethnic minority vote is increasingly fractured and that is a trend likely to increase over time.

Are you sighting the British Future results? That survey and the accelerated movement of ethnic minorities towards the Tories has been doubted: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9432#comments

So the Conservatives do seem to be making some progress amongst ethnic minority voters… but it’s probably only a modest advance, as yet the huge Labour advantage amongst BME voters remains almost as large as it was at previous elections.

I wasn't citing [not 'sighting'] any particular survey but agree it is a modest movement - enough for what I suggested in my original comment to be valid.

I don't think a small modest improvement, at a time when the cuts coming in are likely to affect BME voters - suggest that the vote will become increasingly fracturated. In fact that Labour - as Wells' notes practically maintained their big advantage don't suggest much fracturing will occur anytime soon.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. M, indeed, but the Conservatives have the kettle and George Foreman grill votes sewn up.

RobD

Plato said:

Boris = Totally Unsuitable.

I'd never vote for him to be Party Leader.

Danny565 said:

Since we're on the topic of Osborne being PM, can I take the chance to again point out that IPSOS-MORI found less people wanted him to be PM than Andy Burnham?

From a purely political/strategic perspective, Boris as next leader seems like a no-brainer to me, he is the only Tory who can reach people that Cameron can't (young people especially seem to love him). However there is the not inconsiderable matter of whether Tory MPs think he's actually up to the job of being PM, of course.

Agreed, and as much as I like the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm, I'm not sure he'd be the best to take over AD. May is growing on me (and it'd be great to have another woman before labour have their fist... titter). How the migrant problem resolved itself could be significant for her chances.

GeoffM

RobD said:

GeoffM said:

RobD said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

Duke Nukem Forever was the standard bearer for that theory for 15 years but even that game appeared in the end. And it promptly disappointed everyone, to continue the analogy!

Pressure is on for the big AV thread, TSE!

Bugger, I've just delayed it another week.

Me too. Publish and be damned!

[@RobD If we keep this up it'll be safely after Christmas in no time]

kle4

GeoffM said:

RobD said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

Duke Nukem Forever was the standard bearer for that theory for 15 years but even that game appeared in the end. And it promptly disappointed everyone, to continue the analogy!

There surely weren't people sincerely expecting Duke Nukem Forever to be good after all that time to be able to be disappointed, I'd have thought.

That said, I think the principle is sound, re the mythical AV thread.

RobD

GeoffM said:

RobD said:

GeoffM said:

RobD said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

Asking that question delays it another week. A similar principle is maintained for the much-anticipate Half Life 3 computer game.

Duke Nukem Forever was the standard bearer for that theory for 15 years but even that game appeared in the end. And it promptly disappointed everyone, to continue the analogy!

Pressure is on for the big AV thread, TSE!

Bugger, I've just delayed it another week.

Me too. Publish and be damned!

[@RobD If we keep this up it'll be safely after Christmas in no time]

Unluckily for TSE, I'm about to go wheels-up at IAH. No more delays from me

Plato

There's a new piece in The Times about it being a 'global crisis' - I think it's a crisis for Europe myself. Getting out of control isn't hyperbole. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4515049.ece

DT version http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11778497/This-is-a-global-migration-crisis.html

The British and French governments have warned that the world is facing a “global migration crisis”.

In a dramatic joint intervention, Theresa May, the Home Secretary, and her French counterpart, Bernard Cazeneuve, call on countries across Europe and Africa to help solve the emergency caused by thousands of migrants congregating at their border.

Writing in the Telegraph, they warn would-be immigrants planning to make the “desperate” journey in search of a better life that Britain’s streets “are not paved with gold”.

As a first step to make Britain less attractive, the Home Office announced plans to cut the weekly cash allowances that support thousands of failed asylum seekers with families.

RobD said:

Plato said:

Boris = Totally Unsuitable.

I'd never vote for him to be Party Leader.

Danny565 said:

Since we're on the topic of Osborne being PM, can I take the chance to again point out that IPSOS-MORI found less people wanted him to be PM than Andy Burnham?

From a purely political/strategic perspective, Boris as next leader seems like a no-brainer to me, he is the only Tory who can reach people that Cameron can't (young people especially seem to love him). However there is the not inconsiderable matter of whether Tory MPs think he's actually up to the job of being PM, of course.

Agreed, and as much as I like the most popular heir-to-a-baronetcy in the realm, I'm not sure he'd be the best to take over AD. May is growing on me (and it'd be great to have another woman before labour have their fist... titter). How the migrant problem resolved itself could be significant for her chances.

The_Apocalypse

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Morris_Dancer

Ms. Apocalypse, some might be motivated by 50/1 bets...

MTimT

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

Disraeli

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader.

It's because they relish the irony of it. The evil Tories having female leaders before the "good guys" Labour party have even had one female leader yet (1)!

(1) Well, no full-time ones, anyway.

The_Apocalypse

Morris_Dancer said:

Ms. Apocalypse, some might be motivated by 50/1 bets...

Just seen that r.e. Soubry. Though that's for her being the next shadow chancellor.

MP_SE

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Tories get excited about it as they manage to have a crop of capable women without the need for shortlists. Labour on the other hand have very few female political heavyweights, if any.

NickPalmer

O/T: Stodge remarked on Corbyn's mild manner in the last thread. There's an interesting general theme here, isn't there? - the lack of identity between mildness of manner and centrism of politics, and which one floating voters really look for. Prescott is a good example of the opposite - a very pugnacious centrist.

I think that mildness of manner gets you a hearing, though pugnaciousness makes a more lasting impact if people like the general flavour. Personally I have more time for polite politicians of any party (Letwin is another good example) than for the shouters who don't actually seem to be shouting about anything very specific. But pugnacity gets more media coverage as a rule.

The_Apocalypse

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

Plato

I can't say I recognise your description of Tories here, but hey we all have a view.

I'd love to have a female CoE a) we've never had one, b) it is much harder to be mean to a woman in general so would be most amusing at PMQs/TreasuryQs and c) it'd be a good role model for those who think this stuff matters. It doesn't matter to me one iota.

Mrs T was a man in a dress - so I don't count her. Mrs May is an icicle - can't see her ever being leader - too much of a technocrat and not that popular beyond her dept. IIRC she's also getting on a bit. Anna Soubry is Mrs T Mk II in my book looks and manner wise. I'd like to see someone else.

Priti? LOLOLOLOL

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

The_Apocalypse

@Disraeli Thatcher was never a front-runner for the leadership in 1974 (?) though, was she? I think many Tories didn't expect her to become leader.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sandpit said:

Off topic, but @TheScreamingEagles where is the promised AV thread?

It was going to be a combined thread on House of Lords reform/The Salisbury-Addison convention and electoral reform/AV

However this weekend, David Herdson covered the first part yesterday morning, and Mike talked about AV yesterday afternoon.

I don't want to give you a sugar rush of lots of AV related threads in one weekend.

So you might see it next weekend.

In the meantime, please read this AV thread I wrote a few weeks ago

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2015/07/01/how-the-alternative-vote-system-could-stop-burnham-becoming-labour-leader/

Tis a glorious fact that the hereditaries in the most noble chamber are elected by AV.

The piece is headlined "If AV is good enough for the House of Lords and electing Tory leaders then it is good enough for the country"

AV - voting system for the most noble and ancient hereditary peers, and the convicts (not the leader of the Tory party).


Doesn't the Tory leadership contest actually consist of multiple FPTP rounds? I'll get my coat....

In Tory leadership elections, the candidate with the lowest vote in each round is eliminated, until there are two left, and the winner has to get over 50%.

Sounds a lot like AV......

Unlike AV you can only vote for one candidate per round, and you can see the result of the first elimination before casting your next vote...

Plato

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

I can't say I recognise your description of Tories here, but hey we all have a view.

I'd love to have a female CoE a) we've never had one, b) it is much harder to be mean to a woman in general so would be most amusing at PMQs/TreasuryQs and c) it'd be a good role model for those who think this stuff matters. It doesn't matter to me one iota.

Mrs T was a man in a dress - so I don't count her. Mrs May is an icicle - can't see her ever being leader - too much of a technocrat and not that popular beyond her dept. IIRC she's also getting on a bit. Anna Soubry is Mrs T Mk II in my book looks and manner wise. I'd like to see someone else.

Priti? LOLOLOLOL

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Plato, I wouldn't put you in my description there of some Tories on PB. You come across as a moderate Tory. I agree with your views r.e. Mrs T being a man in a dress. Anna Soubry does come across a bit Thatchereqsue when she speaks, but she actually far more moderate than Mrs T. The woman describes herself as a feminist - Mrs T would never! Your response r.e. Priti It's just she is mentioned by quite a few Tories, who seem to reckon she'd be a great leader. It'd be a sight to see, at the very least.

Sunil_Prasannan

@Plato

How on earth was Maggie a "man in a dress"? WTF?

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

I can't speak for all BMEs - but as one - I can say the BMEs I know in my family and friends - not many are really 'liberal'. Those my age tend to be the most likely to liberal, but they gravitate towards Labour or the Greens. Those 30+ tend have a touch of socially conservative views.

GeoffM

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to ... [snip]

I personally don't see ... [snip lots of other lack of understanding]

The fact that you and your fellow travellers don't see it is all part of the fun, Miss Apocalypse.

The Tories are trolling you and have been doing it for hundreds of years. Sure, you trendy-lefty children can bleat about "equality" and wave placards. But you are completely ineffective. You achieve nothing despite all of your pompous windbaggery (see SO for details). The fact is that in 1913 a horse trampled a woman in the name of freedom and equality. 102 years later and horses still can't vote. If you want to look for achievement in equality you have to look to the Conservative party.

This is why the Tories can push your buttons so easily by pretending to be 'excited'.

The Conservatives have a number of distinct and undeniable Firsts over the years:

First Jewish leader (and PM)
First unmarried leader (and PM).
First female leader (and PM).
Oldest leader for over a century (and PM).
Youngest leader for over a century (and youngest PM)
First openly homosexual leader (Scottish)
The first Catholic leader (officially),
The first to be born outside the UK, etc etc

By pretending to get excited about the idea the Conservatives are trolling you about maybe selecting a woman, maybe not. For them its second time around and an equal option. But the left, with all of their sanctimonious whining, have never dared put their pieties into practice.

kle4

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

Not sure if that shows in the types of constituencies they represented (at 50+ I assume some at least must have been pretty diverse, Bradford East for one comes to mind), although what was one of their strongholds, if no longer, the South-West, is I believe the least diverse region in England.

Disraeli

The_Apocalypse said:

@Disraeli Thatcher was never a front-runner for the leadership in 1974 (?) though, was she? I think many Tories didn't expect her to become leader.

It was 1975, not long after Labour had won the second election in 1974.

I was studying Politics then, though active in the Labour Party. Heath completely misread the support for Thatcher in the Tory Party (as did many commentators to be fair). Thatcher topped the first poll and romped home in the second.

My mother loved the result. I hated it. We had a massive bust up.

Sunil_Prasannan

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

I can't speak for all BMEs - but as one - I can say the BMEs I know in my family and friends - not many are really 'liberal'. Those my age tend to be the most likely to liberal, but they gravitate towards Labour or the Greens. Those 30+ tend have a touch of socially conservative views.

I really hate the term "Minority Ethnic" - what's wrong with "ethnic minority"?

(and relax!)

Plato

I think conf audiences are a pretty good yardstick for measuring the activist/committed supporter - if there's a lot of a certain type, it gives a feel for the whole organisation.

The LDs of course have the Most Tattooed Man In Britain as an activist - so they've got that demographic sewn up. Can't say I like the notion of having his eyeballs tattooed black.

Britain's most tattooed man, 33, has spent £20,000 covering 80% of his body (including his eyeball) in ink... and can be found volunteering in a Liberal Democrat's office

He had his name legally changed to King Body Art The Extreme Ink-ite
Mathew Whelan has spent 300 hours in the chair and £20,000 on his habit
The 33-year-old volunteers for the Liberal Democrats and campaigns for people who have body ink in the workplace


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2288391/Mathew-Whelan-Britains-tattooed-man-33-spent-20-000-covering-80-body.html#ixzz3hfqVLqrl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

kle4 said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

snip

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

snip

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

Not sure if that shows in the types of constituencies they represented (at 50+ I assume some at least must have been pretty diverse, Bradford East for one comes to mind), although what was one of their strongholds, if no longer, the South-West, is I believe the least diverse region in England.

Sunil_Prasannan

GeoffM said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to ... [snip]

I personally don't see ... [snip lots of other lack of understanding]

The fact that you and your fellow travellers don't see it is all part of the fun, Miss Apocalypse.

The Tories are trolling you and have been doing it for hundreds of years. Sure, you trendy-lefty children can bleat about "equality" and wave placards. But you are completely ineffective. You achieve nothing despite all of your pompous windbaggery (see SO for details). The fact is that in 1913 a horse trampled a woman in the name of freedom and equality. 102 years later and horses still can't vote. If you want to look for achievement in equality you have to look to the Conservative party.

This is why the Tories can push your buttons so easily by pretending to be 'excited'.

The Conservatives have a number of distinct and undeniable Firsts over the years:

First Jewish leader (and PM)
First unmarried leader (and PM).
First female leader (and PM).
Oldest leader for over a century (and PM).
Youngest leader for over a century (and youngest PM)
First openly homosexual leader (Scottish)
The first Catholic leader (officially),
The first to be born outside the UK, etc etc

By pretending to get excited about the idea the Conservatives are trolling you about maybe selecting a woman, maybe not. For them its second time around and an equal option. But the left, with all of their sanctimonious whining, have never dared put their pieties into practice.

During the Cold War, all the Commie leaders were blokes weren't they? There never was once a female leader of a Communist Nation

kle4

I

Sunil_Prasannan said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

I can't speak for all BMEs - but as one - I can say the BMEs I know in my family and friends - not many are really 'liberal'. Those my age tend to be the most likely to liberal, but they gravitate towards Labour or the Greens. Those 30+ tend have a touch of socially conservative views.

I really hate the term "Minority Ethnic" - what's wrong with "ethnic minority"?

(and relax!)

Also, it was my understanding that BME as a term was being phased out in favour of BAME.

Though that's not a patch on my favourite increasingly convoluted acronym, LGBTIQ, which I first saw in the Green Party manifesto. I do think when the acronym cannot be pronounced and is itself getting to be as long as a lengthy word, it's time for a new term,

The_Apocalypse

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes. And if you seriously think the left have been ineffective r.e women's BMEs, and gay rights....well there's not much to say. Without the suffragettes, and suffragists, Mrs Thatcher would never have been leader of the Conservative party, because women wouldn't have even gotten the vote in the first place. I don't think it also takes a genius to know that Emily Davidson wasn't getting trampled over by a horse to votes for horses.

Who was the party who passed to act that made abortions legal? Who was the party who passed the equal pay act? It certainly wasn't the Tories.

And as for having the first Jewish leader - it certainly did nothing to stop anti-semitism in this country, which was still a huge issue even during WW2. In fact, wasn't it right-wing newspapers such as the Mail who spent time supporting fascists and freaking out about Jewish refugees coming to this country? And the Right are the 'real' equality people....yeah right.

Pushing my buttons? Your buttons appear to pushed.

GeoffM

Sunil_Prasannan said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

I can't speak for all BMEs - but as one - I can say the BMEs I know in my family and friends - not many are really 'liberal'. Those my age tend to be the most likely to liberal, but they gravitate towards Labour or the Greens. Those 30+ tend have a touch of socially conservative views.

I really hate the term "Minority Ethnic" - what's wrong with "ethnic minority"?

(and relax!)

It's all about creating an acronym which is easy to slip into conversation without sounding linguistically awkward or upsetting the Special Snowflakes of the professionally offended.

The second part is particularly important because if you were just looking for acronym accuracy then there'd be nothing wrong with Coloured Or Other Nationality.

The_Apocalypse

Plato said:

I think conf audiences are a pretty good yardstick for measuring the activist/committed supporter - if there's a lot of a certain type, it gives a feel for the whole organisation.

The LDs of course have the Most Tattooed Man In Britain as an activist - so they've got that demographic sewn up. Can't say I like the notion of having his eyeballs tattooed black.

Britain's most tattooed man, 33, has spent £20,000 covering 80% of his body (including his eyeball) in ink... and can be found volunteering in a Liberal Democrat's office

He had his name legally changed to King Body Art The Extreme Ink-ite
Mathew Whelan has spent 300 hours in the chair and £20,000 on his habit
The 33-year-old volunteers for the Liberal Democrats and campaigns for people who have body ink in the workplace


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2288391/Mathew-Whelan-Britains-tattooed-man-33-spent-20-000-covering-80-body.html#ixzz3hfqVLqrl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

kle4 said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

snip

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

snip

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

Not sure if that shows in the types of constituencies they represented (at 50+ I assume some at least must have been pretty diverse, Bradford East for one comes to mind), although what was one of their strongholds, if no longer, the South-West, is I believe the least diverse region in England.

I remember seeing that through a Gogglebox episode. It was hilarious. He's completely crazy though, without a shadow of a doubt.

williamglenn

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes

Thatcher being leader wasn't symbolism; it was real leadership from a real woman.

Plato

Mrs Pankhurst stood as a Tory MP.

In 1926 Pankhurst joined the Conservative Party and two years later ran as a candidate for Parliament in Whitechapel and St George's. Her transformation from a fiery supporter of the ILP and window-smashing radical to an official Conservative Party member surprised many people. She replied succinctly: "My war experience and my experience on the other side of the Atlantic have changed my views considerably."[119] Her biographers insist that the move was more complex; she was devoted to a programme of women's empowerment and anti-communism. Both the Liberal and Labour parties bore grudges for her work against them in the WSPU, and the Conservative Party had a victorious record after the war and a significant majority. Pankhurst's membership of the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with ensuring her aims of obtaining the vote for women were achieved as with ideology.[120]

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes. And if you seriously think the left have been ineffective r.e women's BMEs, and gay rights....well there's not much to say. Without the suffragettes, and suffragists, Mrs Thatcher would never have been leader of the Conservative party, because women wouldn't have even gotten the vote in the first place. I don't think it also takes a genius to know that Emily Davidson wasn't getting trampled over by a horse to votes for horses.

Who was the party who passed to act that made abortions legal? Who was the party who passed the equal pay act? It certainly wasn't the Tories.

And as for having the first Jewish leader - it certainly did nothing to stop anti-semitism in this country, which was still a huge issue even during WW2. In fact, wasn't it right-wing newspapers such as the Mail who spent time supporting fascists and freaking out about Jewish refugees coming to this country?

Pushing my buttons? Your buttons appear to pushed.

Plato

And Nancy Astor was the first female MP - another Tory...

Nancy Witcher Langhorne Astor, Viscountess Astor, CH (19 May 1879 – 2 May 1964) was an American-born English socialite who made a second marriage to Waldorf Astor as a young woman in England. After he succeeded to the peerage and entered the House of Lords, she entered politics, in 1919 winning his former seat in Plymouth and becoming the first woman to sit as a Member of Parliament (MP) in the House of Commons.[Note 1] Her first husband was an American, Robert Gould Shaw II, and they divorced. She served in Parliament as a representative of the Conservative Party for Plymouth Sutton until 1945, when she was persuaded to step down.

Plato said:

Mrs Pankhurst stood as a Tory MP.

In 1926 Pankhurst joined the Conservative Party and two years later ran as a candidate for Parliament in Whitechapel and St George's. Her transformation from a fiery supporter of the ILP and window-smashing radical to an official Conservative Party member surprised many people. She replied succinctly: "My war experience and my experience on the other side of the Atlantic have changed my views considerably."[119] Her biographers insist that the move was more complex; she was devoted to a programme of women's empowerment and anti-communism. Both the Liberal and Labour parties bore grudges for her work against them in the WSPU, and the Conservative Party had a victorious record after the war and a significant majority. Pankhurst's membership of the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with ensuring her aims of obtaining the vote for women were achieved as with ideology.[120]

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes. And if you seriously think the left have been ineffective r.e women's BMEs, and gay rights....well there's not much to say. Without the suffragettes, and suffragists, Mrs Thatcher would never have been leader of the Conservative party, because women wouldn't have even gotten the vote in the first place. I don't think it also takes a genius to know that Emily Davidson wasn't getting trampled over by a horse to votes for horses.

Who was the party who passed to act that made abortions legal? Who was the party who passed the equal pay act? It certainly wasn't the Tories.

And as for having the first Jewish leader - it certainly did nothing to stop anti-semitism in this country, which was still a huge issue even during WW2. In fact, wasn't it right-wing newspapers such as the Mail who spent time supporting fascists and freaking out about Jewish refugees coming to this country?

Pushing my buttons? Your buttons appear to pushed.

TheWhiteRabbit

Plato said:

And Nancy Astor was the first female MP - another Tory...

Nancy Witcher Langhorne Astor, Viscountess Astor, CH (19 May 1879 – 2 May 1964) was an American-born English socialite who made a second marriage to Waldorf Astor as a young woman in England. After he succeeded to the peerage and entered the House of Lords, she entered politics, in 1919 winning his former seat in Plymouth and becoming the first woman to sit as a Member of Parliament (MP) in the House of Commons.[Note 1] Her first husband was an American, Robert Gould Shaw II, and they divorced. She served in Parliament as a representative of the Conservative Party for Plymouth Sutton until 1945, when she was persuaded to step down.

Plato said:

Mrs Pankhurst stood as a Tory MP.

In 1926 Pankhurst joined the Conservative Party and two years later ran as a candidate for Parliament in Whitechapel and St George's. Her transformation from a fiery supporter of the ILP and window-smashing radical to an official Conservative Party member surprised many people. She replied succinctly: "My war experience and my experience on the other side of the Atlantic have changed my views considerably."[119] Her biographers insist that the move was more complex; she was devoted to a programme of women's empowerment and anti-communism. Both the Liberal and Labour parties bore grudges for her work against them in the WSPU, and the Conservative Party had a victorious record after the war and a significant majority. Pankhurst's membership of the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with ensuring her aims of obtaining the vote for women were achieved as with ideology.[120]

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes. And if you seriously think the left have been ineffective r.e women's BMEs, and gay rights....well there's not much to say. Without the suffragettes, and suffragists, Mrs Thatcher would never have been leader of the Conservative party, because women wouldn't have even gotten the vote in the first place. I don't think it also takes a genius to know that Emily Davidson wasn't getting trampled over by a horse to votes for horses.

Who was the party who passed to act that made abortions legal? Who was the party who passed the equal pay act? It certainly wasn't the Tories.

And as for having the first Jewish leader - it certainly did nothing to stop anti-semitism in this country, which was still a huge issue even during WW2. In fact, wasn't it right-wing newspapers such as the Mail who spent time supporting fascists and freaking out about Jewish refugees coming to this country?

Pushing my buttons? Your buttons appear to pushed.

Well an Irish Countess was the first elected, but as a SF member didn't sit.

Sunil_Prasannan

kle4 said:

I

Sunil_Prasannan said:

The_Apocalypse said:

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tt Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

I can't speak for all BMEs - but as one - I can say the BMEs I know in my family and friends - not many are really 'liberal'. Those my age tend to be the most likely to liberal, but they gravitate towards Labour or the Greens. Those 30+ tend have a touch of socially conservative views.

I really hate the term "Minority Ethnic" - what's wrong with "ethnic minority"?

(and relax!)

Also, it was my understanding that BME as a term was being phased out in favour of BAME.

Though that's not a patch on my favourite increasingly convoluted acronym, LGBTIQ, which I first saw in the Green Party manifesto. I do think when the acronym cannot be pronounced and is itself getting to be as long as a lengthy word, it's time for a new term,

They seem to be playing the BAME Game?

The_Apocalypse

@Plato The link says:

Pankhurst's membership of the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with ensuring her aims of obtaining the vote for women were achieved as with ideology

On Nancy Astor, I'm aware of her a being Tory MP. Didn't change the official position of both the Tories and the Liberal party on the vote though.

Plato

I saw that infamous clip of her as Iron Lady from Spitting Image the other day - it didn't do her any harm at all. I remember Fluck and Law said it became impossible to parody her as too masculine - even in a gangster pin-striped suit.

williamglenn said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes

Thatcher being leader wasn't symbolism; it was real leadership from a real woman.

The_Apocalypse

Also it should be said Christabel stood for the Women's Party, and Sylvia Pankhurst was a communist! And Emmeline was (it seems prior to the 1920s) a member of the Independent Labour party.

williamglenn said:

The_Apocalypse said:

@GeoffM You prove my point. More interested in the symbolism of xyz being a leader as opposed to actual changes

Thatcher being leader wasn't symbolism; it was real leadership from a real woman.

It was symbolism in the sense that Tories use it to prove they've always been this party of equality....which is odd, given all the reforms and modernisation Cameron had to do to prove the Tories were an inclusive party.

Sunil_Prasannan

@Plato

Plato said:

Mrs T was a man in a dress - so I don't count her.

Lefty Propaganda from @Plato!

If she was a man, how could she have had Mark and Carol?!!

foxinsoxuk

Plato said:

If you have a look at the audience of LD conferences - you won't find many BME attendees either. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have traction with this group.

The_Apocalypse said:

MTimT said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to get so excited about having a female leader. Half of these same people have a mental breakdown over Cameron's policy on the gender-pay-gap etc. Some seem more obsessed over the symbolism of having a female leader as opposed to actually doing things to help women in the country.

I personally don't see either Patel or Greening being elected as Tory leader. Patel is far too hard-line, and it looks like Greening's career has faded into the dusk. I think a good bet for the Tories would be Anna Soubry, or Theresa May - (I think May is probably the best HS we've had in years) but I don't see the Tories going for them, either.

I should say that Theresa May is also an evil feminist as well - I don't know how that would go down with the Tory grassroots.

Equality of opportunity, aspiration and upward mobility are at the very core of Conservative political economic theory. But, as with any party, the Tories are not monolithic in their views on all political issues and there are bound to be some contradictions between the views of some elements of the party and the party position on other policy planks. Certainly there are some who hold more outdated views on women, but just look at Labour and the LDs to put that in perspective.

On Labour the only one I've really seen with 'outdated' views is Austin Mitchell (awful man). On everything else, Labour appear to have been consistent in their advocation and support for women's rights, ethnic minority equality, and gay rights for years.

It's the LDs who are the biggest joke. No ethnic minority MP? Really? And the Renard crisis....

The LDs have had a BME MP. Parrmjit Singh Gill won the Leicester South by election in 2004 after Jim Marshall died. He lost to Peter Soulsby in 2005 though.

GeoffM

Sunil_Prasannan said:

GeoffM said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don't see why the Tories seem to ... [snip]

I personally don't see ... [snip lots of other lack of understanding]

The fact that you and your fellow travellers don't see it is all part of the fun, Miss Apocalypse.

The Tories are trolling you and have been doing it for hundreds of years. Sure, you trendy-lefty children can bleat about "equality" and wave placards. But you are completely ineffective. You achieve nothing despite all of your pompous windbaggery (see SO for details). The fact is that in 1913 a horse trampled a woman in the name of freedom and equality. 102 years later and horses still can't vote. If you want to look for achievement in equality you have to look to the Conservative party.

This is why the Tories can push your buttons so easily by pretending to be 'excited'.

The Conservatives have a number of distinct and undeniable Firsts over the years:

First Jewish leader (and PM)
First unmarried leader (and PM).
First female leader (and PM).
Oldest leader for over a century (and PM).
Youngest leader for over a century (and youngest PM)
First openly homosexual leader (Scottish)
The first Catholic leader (officially),
The first to be born outside the UK, etc etc

By pretending to get excited about the idea the Conservatives are trolling you about maybe selecting a woman, maybe not. For them its second time around and an equal option. But the left, with all of their sanctimonious whining, have never dared put their pieties into practice.

During the Cold War, all the Commie leaders were blokes weren't they? There never was once a female leader of a Communist Nation

Dr. Sunil, my dear chap, every half-decent pub quizzer knows that Milka Planinc was the first female leader of a Communist nation!

Plato

I see nit-picking here. She was the official candidate of the Tories. If they didn't want her - they wouldn't have given her the slot. Ditto Lady Astor - she again was the official candidate.

There's a point beyond which whataboutery really doesn't work, and that's why Tories feel no need to parade their virtues here. We only point it out when someone liberally minded comes along and thinks their side invented this stuff.

When Labour has a gay leader in Scotland, and a female leader in the UK - then they'll stop playing catch-up.

The_Apocalypse said:

@Plato The link says:

Pankhurst's membership of the Conservative Party may have had as much to do with ensuring her aims of obtaining the vote for women were achieved as with ideology

On Nancy Astor, I'm aware of her a being Tory MP. Didn't change the official position of both the Tories and the Liberal party on the vote though.