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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What the latest private LAB polling has done to the betting

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What the latest private LAB polling has done to the betting

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Comments

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    First!!!!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I cannot believe there is so much time still to go in this race. Granted, with trouble sleeping the days to me seem twice as long In any case, but it's ridiculous. Kendall fizzled out immediately, the old firebrand is crackling along and who knows how long he can keep that up, while the other two appear to be in a separate contest to out bland each other. I think they are waiting to see who blinks first before actually starting their campaigns proper, to ensure they dont burn out like Kendall, but forgot that party automatons don't need to blink.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Another Hillary email story. This one about there apparently being a 2-month gap in the emails she has handed over in 2012 which coincides with 2 separate issues which could have been embarrassing for her - the special exemption used in the employment of Huma Abedin and the escalating violence in Libya leading up the the Benghazi attack.

    If this is true, Hillary now has a lot of explaining to do and the parallels to the Nixon tapes won't be far behind.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/28/the-missing-hillary-emails-no-one-can-explain.html
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    MTimT said:

    Another Hillary email story. This one about there apparently being a 2-month gap in the emails she has handed over in 2012 which coincides with 2 separate issues which could have been embarrassing for her - the special exemption used in the employment of Huma Abedin and the escalating violence in Libya leading up the the Benghazi attack.

    If this is true, Hillary now has a lot of explaining to do and the parallels to the Nixon tapes won't be far behind.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/28/the-missing-hillary-emails-no-one-can-explain.html

    It's amazing really. the whole thing stinks.

  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Another Hillary email story. This one about there apparently being a 2-month gap in the emails she has handed over in 2012 which coincides with 2 separate issues which could have been embarrassing for her - the special exemption used in the employment of Huma Abedin and the escalating violence in Libya leading up the the Benghazi attack.

    If this is true, Hillary now has a lot of explaining to do and the parallels to the Nixon tapes won't be far behind.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/28/the-missing-hillary-emails-no-one-can-explain.html

    It's amazing really. the whole thing stinks.

    What amazes me about this story is the steady drip release of new embarrassments. Granted, part of that comes from the judge requiring State to release emails each month as they go through the vetting process. But it is almost like someone is managing a news campaign against Hillary. And she and her team are not responding at all to get ahead of the story.

    I know their strategy is to hunker down and let the storm pass over rather than engage, but leaving the field uncontested to you opponents and to speculation seems an extremely high risk strategy to me.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    FPT

    I'm not an absolutist on that - it depends what the other lot are like, don't you think? If the Tories were led by Donald Trump, say, I'd support whichever leader had the best chance of stopping him, even if they wanted to halve benefits and privatise everything. In the same way, if I had to choose between a Tory Government and a UKIP Government, I'd vote Tory. But although I don't like a lot of what Cameron does, he's not Trump or Le Pen. I'm not prepared to base my choices entirely on the negative proposition of stopping the Tories. The chance of stopping them with Corbyn is not zero, and the chance with someone else is not 100%. So it's just one factor to be considered - important, but not decisive. Having an opposition that puts forward interesting alternatives is important too.

    This is meant as a detached comment not a snark, but one thing this contest is showing us is that Labour supporters generally don't think the Tory government is that bad. If they did they'd be focussing more on electability. I think this shows the wisdom of Cameron's positioning: Although a lot of the substance is very right-wing, the mood music is a bit more subtle.
    The Cameroon economics are quite right wing, social policy is indistinguishable from Blairite Labour or possibly even slightly to the left of that. The recent taste for identity politics an the PC agenda in the Tory leadership is thoroughly depressing. The fact that both Labour and Conservative parties are socially left-wing is as much the cause of UKIP as anything to do with the EU or immigration.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2015
    JWisemann said:

    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.

    Very efficient.

    Assumption, multiple insults, group characterisation and patronisation in under 40 words.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    JWisemann said:

    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.

    Are you capable of posting anything here that isn't stupid and rude?
  • Are we again seeing a big gap between polling and betting markets?
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    HCWNBLOTLP
    JCWNBPOTUS
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    kle4 said:

    I cannot believe there is so much time still to go in this race. Granted, with trouble sleeping the days to me seem twice as long In any case, but it's ridiculous. Kendall fizzled out immediately, the old firebrand is crackling along and who knows how long he can keep that up, while the other two appear to be in a separate contest to out bland each other. I think they are waiting to see who blinks first before actually starting their campaigns proper, to ensure they dont burn out like Kendall, but forgot that party automatons don't need to blink.

    There isn't that long to go. The ballot papers go out a fortnight on Friday. Most will be returned by the middle of the following week, if other postal votes are anything to go by.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    On topic, sensible move by Mike. The race itself seems straightforward to call; it's just that the evidence seems so counter-intuitive. Corbyn is on course to win comfortably.

    That may change if Corbyn does something stupid or Burnham or Cooper something to galvanise their campaign but you'd think that if the more experienced two had that kind of initiative up their sleeve, they'd have played it by now, not least because AV notwithstanding, neither can afford the race to become Corbyn vs the other. And Corbyn? Yes, he could do something stupid - his campaign has been guilt on speaking bluntly and with passion and there's clearly a risk in doing that - but he's avoided bearpits so far.

    Short of that, all the polling points to him polling in the low- to mid-40s, which may well be enough on first preferences once non-transferable votes are excluded. It should certainly be enough with transfers: even if every vote were transferable, he'd still only need at most about a quarter of them - and they won't all be transferable.

    Another factor working for him which is more of a variable but to be taken into consideration is that Burnham might finish third. If so, it's likely that JC would get a higher proportion of second round transfers (after Kendall) than if it had been Cooper eliminated. Indeed, if we think that Cooper will get the bulk of Kendall's transfers (and I do, both on sisterhood grounds and on political alignment), then Burnham is even more likely to be eliminated second.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015
    JWisemann said:

    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.

    Yes, that well known right wing blog, The New Statesman

    http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2015/07/echo-chamber-social-media-luring-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Sean_F said:

    JWisemann said:

    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.

    Are you capable of posting anything here that isn't stupid and rude?
    Don't debate with fools. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Staggers: Which CLPs are nominating whom?

    Jeremy Corbyn (121)
    Andy Burnham (107)
    Yvette Cooper (91)
    Liz Kendall (14)

    Someone mentioned here Burnham was inching forward, well, he’s just taken two steps back.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/07/which-clps-are-nominating-who-labour-leadership-contest
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    I would make a nice profit if she did win, but cannot see it myself. The mood seems to be for a "change" agenda away from Miliband and hie effete and ineffective front bench. LK is the change candidate with the right sort of appeal to floating voters, but the party does not seem ready for this yet. Instead we will get the "change" candidate of the left.

    Looking at Mikes Chart and the polling (pisspoor as it is) there still seems to be value in backing Corbyn and laying Burnham. Whatever else this contest has been, it has been good for betting.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Watching Burnham's appalling interview on yesterday's Newsnight, just shows why he is heading for the bottom. He is really an EdM clone. His idea for new nationwide Care policy is good, but when challenged on how it would be effected, all he could come up with was to form a National Commission to work out the detail. Surely he must have some ideas in his mind or else he is just dodging detail completely and truthfully does not have a clue.

    All he could offer was looking backwards instead of having an agenda for the 2020s. He kept reiterating Labour Values without ever defining them, at a time when a definition is required. JC is very happily streets ahead of him there and not being opposed by Burnham or Cooper.

    Even worse was the performance by the 3 new MPs supporting Burham, Cooper and Kendal. (One was invited for JC but did not appear). The lady from Sheffield supporting Burnham was as clueless as him and just parroted his phrases whilst saying how thrilled she was to be supporting him - but did not look at all thrilled - not a glimpse of joy on her face. The one supporting Cooper really said nothing of any importance to remember whilst the Kendall one was hardly questioned. A multiple car pile up - all should be taken to the breaker's yard for scrap and probably not worth much for spare parts.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Indigo said:

    FPT

    I'm not an absolutist on that - it depends what the other lot are like, don't you think? If the Tories were led by Donald Trump, say, I'd support whichever leader had the best chance of stopping him, even if they wanted to halve benefits and privatise everything. In the same way, if I had to choose between a Tory Government and a UKIP Government, I'd vote Tory. But although I don't like a lot of what Cameron does, he's not Trump or Le Pen. I'm not prepared to base my choices entirely on the negative proposition of stopping the Tories. The chance of stopping them with Corbyn is not zero, and the chance with someone else is not 100%. So it's just one factor to be considered - important, but not decisive. Having an opposition that puts forward interesting alternatives is important too.

    This is meant as a detached comment not a snark, but one thing this contest is showing us is that Labour supporters generally don't think the Tory government is that bad. If they did they'd be focussing more on electability. I think this shows the wisdom of Cameron's positioning: Although a lot of the substance is very right-wing, the mood music is a bit more subtle.
    The Cameroon economics are quite right wing, social policy is indistinguishable from Blairite Labour or possibly even slightly to the left of that. The recent taste for identity politics an the PC agenda in the Tory leadership is thoroughly depressing. The fact that both Labour and Conservative parties are socially left-wing is as much the cause of UKIP as anything to do with the EU or immigration.
    I agree. What's the use of a Tory Party that doesn't equate patriotism with homophobia and racism?

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    I've been away so these points may have been made before, when I wasn't watching. However, some key statistics are worth bearing in mind.

    1) Andrew Burnham is probably still slight favourite to win, despite the polls - there is still time, for example, for Corbyn to withdraw and back him, and neither of the female candidates seem likely to make it to the last stage but their votes would overwhelmingly go to Burnham, not Corbyn.

    2) Burnham was placed fourth last time around. Although at the start of that campaign I thought he was probably the most interesting candidate, and the most potentially dangerous to the Conservatives, that was the right result. He ran a shockingly inept campaign and was badly scarred by the scandal at Mid Staffs (or at any rate, by the accusation that he had tried to cover it up). He was in fact, effectively last (if we accept that Diane Abbott was Labour's answer to the MRLP - there to liven things up, but not make a serious contribution).

    3) The first three were Ed Miliband, David Miliband and Ed Balls. That was (and this is really going to be controversial) the right order as well. David Miliband was not - is not - a leader. He is a very efficient administrator, but he has neither the imagination nor the energy to give a strong lead. It is not hard to visualise that Labour would have been even less clearly defined and even more disunited under his ineffectual, vacillating style. Ed Balls thought (and presumably still thinks) that you borrow your way out of a debt crisis, a fundamental and disastrous misreading of our economic situation, made worse by the fact that he believes he is a brilliant economist. With all his faults, Ed Miliband understood that these were wrong and tried to address them. He failed because he simply was not up to the task of doing so.

    Some other key stats:

    1) Labour suffered its third-worst defeat in terms of seats in the age of universal suffrage (behind 1931 and 1983). It was its worst result in Scotland since 1900 - that is to say, its worst election result when it has actually contested any seats there.

    2) Outside London, and excluding Scotland, Labour suffered a net loss of seats to the Conservatives. This was even true in Wales.

    3) Labour received a lower share of the national vote in 2015 than John Major in 1997.

    4) Labour has key areas of strength in the core citites group - London, Leeds/West Yorkshire, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool and Bristol. Outside those areas, which are insufficient to win a majority on their own, it is fast becoming a third, in places a fourth, party.

    Continued in next comment.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    FPT

    I'm not an absolutist on that - it depends what the other lot are like, don't you think? If the Tories were led by Donald Trump, say, I'd support whichever leader had the best chance of stopping him, even if they wanted to halve benefits and privatise everything. In the same way, if I had to choose between a Tory Government and a UKIP Government, I'd vote Tory. But although I don't like a lot of what Cameron does, he's not Trump or Le Pen. I'm not prepared to base my choices entirely on the negative proposition of stopping the Tories. The chance of stopping them with Corbyn is not zero, and the chance with someone else is not 100%. So it's just one factor to be considered - important, but not decisive. Having an opposition that puts forward interesting alternatives is important too.

    This is meant as a detached comment not a snark, but one thing this contest is showing us is that Labour supporters generally don't think the Tory government is that bad. If they did they'd be focussing more on electability. I think this shows the wisdom of Cameron's positioning: Although a lot of the substance is very right-wing, the mood music is a bit more subtle.
    The Cameroon economics are quite right wing, social policy is indistinguishable from Blairite Labour or possibly even slightly to the left of that. The recent taste for identity politics an the PC agenda in the Tory leadership is thoroughly depressing. The fact that both Labour and Conservative parties are socially left-wing is as much the cause of UKIP as anything to do with the EU or immigration.
    I agree. What's the use of a Tory Party that doesn't equate patriotism with homophobia and racism?

    Are you and Mr Wiseman twins ?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    I will say this time and time again. Corbyn is running the best campaign. He's there, saying stuff and producing ideas.

    He actually deserves to win, even if his ideas are bat-s*** crazy. The other's have been hugely poor.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    So what do those stats say? Well, even leaving aside the fact that this contest has been an appalling self-inflicted wound by the Labour party, showing its ugliness and insularity with disastrous clarity, the simple truth is that it is completely irrelevant who wins it. Not one of the candidates has any sort of chance of overcoming these disadvantages. None of them have the force, imagination, campaigning skills, experience or broad appeal needed - indeed, Yvette Cooper and Jeremy Corbyn, as members of the wealthy metropolitan elite, may have a narrower appeal than Ed Miliband did.

    A Tony Blair could overcome these problems (I was no fan, but he was undoubtedly a politician of rare talent) given time, but one is not on offer. Burnham can't campaign, Cooper can't think, Kendall has the courage but not the intellectual heft or personal charisma, and Corbyn doesn't have the requisite sense of self-awareness. Even allowing for a really major scandal and George Osborne as the next Prime Minister (both of which seem unlikely) I think the Conservatives would win in 2020 against any one of those four.

    Therefore, if we are looking for potential Labour leaders who will ultimately become PM, we need to look elsewhere. But where? Ummuna doesn't have the necessary gumption, Tristram Hunt's judgement is appalling (in eight and a half words - 'we will cancel the proposed changes to A-levels' he did more damage to education in this country than Gove did in eight and a half years of very hard work) Chris Leslie is a makeweight at best, and Hilary Benn is too old and too boring.

    That leaves us with the deputy leadership. And a really worrying thought. There are two very effective campaigners in the race - Rachel Reeves and Tom Watson. Rachel Reeves will never be Labour leader - she's not popular enough in the party itself, although she's popular outside (spot the irony). But I could just see Tom Watson becoming leader and under the right circumstances, Prime Minister. The fact that he's absolutely useless at everything but campaigning may just not matter if the Conservatives implode over Europe again (which is perfectly possible and even likely) even though a Watson premiership would be a disaster for Britain and probably for Labour as well.

    The irony is of course that if Labour had the option of Tim Farron, they might just be favourites to win the next election. It will be interesting to see, if Corbyn does win, whether a Farron-led Liberal Democrat party can hive off the soft-left vote from Labour again, as it did in the 1980s.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Britain's relationship with the EU should return to the concept of a “single market of free trade” following the renegotiation of the country’s membership, George Osborne has pledged.

    In his first major interview since the general election, the Chancellor said that the “central attraction” of European Union membership is economic and this should be at the heart of the renegotiation.

    He said that “fixing” the economic aspects of our relationship is the key to “convincing ourselves that it is right for Britain to remain in the EU”.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11768231/
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    I will say this time and time again. Corbyn is running the best campaign. He's there, saying stuff and producing ideas.

    He actually deserves to win, even if his ideas are bat-s*** crazy. The other's have been hugely poor.

    That's the depth of Labour's problem - WYSIWYG is enough to produce the best campaign.

  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The full cost to the economy of obesity, drug addicts and alcoholics will be assessed for the first time, David Cameron is to announce.

    Overweight people could have benefits worth around £100 a week reduced or ended altogether if they refuse to lose weight, the Prime Minister will announce on Wednesday.

    Under a major review of the sickness benefit system to be conducted by Prof Dame Carol Black, the chair of the Nuffield Trust, drink and drug addicts could be denied benefits if they refuse medical treatment.....

    There are around 90,000 people who claim sickness benefits whose illness is primarily due to their drug or alcohol addiction.

    It means that 25 per cent of alcoholics, and an estimated 80 per cent of heroin and crack users, claim benefits, according to figures released by Downing Street.

    Another 1,800 people are entitled to sickness benefits as a result of conditions primarily caused by obesity. A quarter of adults and 15 per cent of children are thought to be obese.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11769531/
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Indigo said:

    JWisemann said:

    FPT is 'virtue signalling' the new thick-as-pigsh*t-pbtories-trying-to-look-smart catchphrase or something? Did one of you read it on some godawful right wing blog and the rest of you thought it sounded clever? Ah, bless.
    What an asinine bunch.

    Yes, that well known right wing blog, The New Statesman

    http://www.newstatesman.com/helen-lewis/2015/07/echo-chamber-social-media-luring-left-cosy-delusion-and-dangerous-insularity

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
    One mention in a blairite blog in a blairite rag pretty much proves my point. A bit of research leads back to surprise surprise the spectator, home of so many moronic right wing pseuds.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,809
    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited July 2015
    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2015

    I will say this time and time again. Corbyn is running the best campaign. He's there, saying stuff and producing ideas.

    He actually deserves to win, even if his ideas are bat-s*** crazy. The other's have been hugely poor.

    Indeed, with the exception of Jeremy Corbyn, the rest of the leadership contenders look as bewildered and confused to what is happening around them as it is for those looking on.

    Sleep walking to oblivion.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Financier said:

    The full cost to the economy of obesity, drug addicts and alcoholics will be assessed for the first time, David Cameron is to announce.

    Overweight people could have benefits worth around £100 a week reduced or ended altogether if they refuse to lose weight, the Prime Minister will announce on Wednesday.

    Under a major review of the sickness benefit system to be conducted by Prof Dame Carol Black, the chair of the Nuffield Trust, drink and drug addicts could be denied benefits if they refuse medical treatment.....

    There are around 90,000 people who claim sickness benefits whose illness is primarily due to their drug or alcohol addiction.

    It means that 25 per cent of alcoholics, and an estimated 80 per cent of heroin and crack users, claim benefits, according to figures released by Downing Street.

    Another 1,800 people are entitled to sickness benefits as a result of conditions primarily caused by obesity. A quarter of adults and 15 per cent of children are thought to be obese.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11769531/

    I have long argued that sickness benefit for obesity, alcoholism and other addictions should be conditional on participation and compliance with a treatment programme. Otherwise we are just subsidising slow suicide.

    There is however a real problem of accessing effective treatment programmes...

  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236
    Corbyn never ever thought about actually becoming leader ; in fact the very thought of it will give him nightmares ..he 's a Don Quiote -like figure with a romantic view of a long lost past ; an old fool on a horse tilting at windmills
    I expect him to allow himself to be talked into dropping out for the ''good of the Party ''
    Furthermore , I expect cooper to eventually win as the compromise candidate who is the least objectionable to the most voters ...she is polished , confident and handles the Press with ease ; has 18yrs experience and an impressive resume
    The L P are an idealistic Party that promotes women's rights and feminism , they are not going to miss the opportunity of electing their first female leader nearly 40yrs after the Tories .And let's face it , with Merkel , Helle Schmitt and Hillary , female leadership is very much in the zeitgeist !
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
    I'm not saying some 'centrist' ideas mixed with some genuine left wing ones wouldn't be a decent idea, but that's not what Kendall is offering.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
    What have you fixed ? Or do you just talk ?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Jezza seems to be announcing one spend-n-spend policy every other day with eye-catching nationalisations of everything that moves.

    I haven't heard a peep from Kendall in days [she gave an intv in the Times which was okay but can't imagine that shifted any votes]

    Andy gave a speech yesterday which appeared to be a giant placard saying Vote Corbyn - I haven't seen any coverage of it bar a couple of paragraphs pre-event. He talked in soundbites and cliches about how people didn't like soundbite and cliche politicians. He even called his speech The Spirit Of 45. What a wally.

    I haven't heard Cooper say A SINGLE THING.
    kle4 said:

    I cannot believe there is so much time still to go in this race. Granted, with trouble sleeping the days to me seem twice as long In any case, but it's ridiculous. Kendall fizzled out immediately, the old firebrand is crackling along and who knows how long he can keep that up, while the other two appear to be in a separate contest to out bland each other. I think they are waiting to see who blinks first before actually starting their campaigns proper, to ensure they dont burn out like Kendall, but forgot that party automatons don't need to blink.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    I am no fan of brass bands, and the military language is quite quaint, but you cannot deny the Salvationists long term commitment to homeless people. Indeed many of the officers are ex-homeless themselves.

    They were running foodbanks before they were fashionable and will be running them long after they cease to be so.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
    What have you fixed ? Or do you just talk ?
    When you explain to me why you have a right to know, I will tell you.

  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236

    I will say this time and time again. Corbyn is running the best campaign. He's there, saying stuff and producing ideas.

    He actually deserves to win, even if his ideas are bat-s*** crazy. The other's have been hugely poor.

    ============================
    Corbyn is just politics as a religious revival ...Corbyn is the messiah who has came to lead the faithful to the promised land , unfortunately it's all a fantasy as he is just an anachronistic and romantic old fool more suited to the General strike in 1926 then 2015

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited July 2015
    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
    What have you fixed ? Or do you just talk ?
    When you explain to me why you have a right to know, I will tell you.

    That's what we thought.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    Cromwell said:

    I will say this time and time again. Corbyn is running the best campaign. He's there, saying stuff and producing ideas.

    He actually deserves to win, even if his ideas are bat-s*** crazy. The other's have been hugely poor.

    ============================
    Corbyn is just politics as a religious revival ...Corbyn is the messiah who has came to lead the faithful to the promised land , unfortunately it's all a fantasy as he is just an anachronistic and romantic old fool more suited to the General strike in 1926 then 2015

    I think that's unfair. He's hardly a Jimmy Thomas or Ben Tillett. He doesn't have their delightful sense of humour, for a start, and he doesn't command respect and affection across political divides.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    I've been away so these points may have been made before, when I wasn't watching. However, some key statistics are worth bearing in mind.

    1) Andrew Burnham is probably still slight favourite to win, despite the polls - there is still time, for example, for Corbyn to withdraw and back him, and neither of the female candidates seem likely to make it to the last stage but their votes would overwhelmingly go to Burnham, not Corbyn.

    2) Burnham was placed fourth last time around. Although at the start of that campaign I thought he was probably the most interesting candidate, and the most potentially dangerous to the Conservatives, that was the right result. He ran a shockingly inept campaign and was badly scarred by the scandal at Mid Staffs (or at any rate, by the accusation that he had tried to cover it up). He was in fact, effectively last (if we accept that Diane Abbott was Labour's answer to the MRLP - there to liven things up, but not make a serious contribution).

    3) The first three were Ed Miliband, David Miliband and Ed Balls. That was (and this is really going to be controversial) the right order as well. David Miliband was not - is not - a leader. He is a very efficient administrator, but he has neither the imagination nor the energy to give a strong lead. It is not hard to visualise that Labour would have been even less clearly defined and even more disunited under his ineffectual, vacillating style. Ed Balls thought (and presumably still thinks) that you borrow your way out of a debt crisis, a fundamental and disastrous misreading of our economic situation, made worse by the fact that he believes he is a brilliant economist. With all his faults, Ed Miliband understood that these were wrong and tried to address them. He failed because he simply was not up to the task of doing so.

    Some other key stats:

    1) Labour suffered its third-worst defeat in terms of seats in the age of universal suffrage (behind 1931 and 1983). It was its worst result in Scotland since 1900 - that is to say, its worst election result when it has actually contested any seats there.

    2) Outside London, and excluding Scotland, Labour suffered a net loss of seats to the Conservatives. This was even true in Wales.

    3) Labour received a lower share of the national vote in 2015 than John Major in 1997.

    4) Labour has key areas of strength in the core citites group - London, Leeds/West Yorkshire, Manchester, Newcastle, Liverpool and Bristol. Outside those areas, which are insufficient to win a majority on their own, it is fast becoming a third, in places a fourth, party.

    Continued in next comment.

    Point 1 is inaccurate. In terms of seats Labour did worse in 1931 - 1935 - 1983 and 1987. In England Labour also did worse in both 1992 and 2010.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited July 2015
    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    A bit like the thousands who are employed to raise awareness but never do anything about the problem or get their hands dirty.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited July 2015
    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    I do volunteer work if that's what you mean (though in the conservation/ environmental sphere).
    But I don't think you should have to, in order to complain about the activities of a government and its consequences on the world, or to campaign for a better alternative.

    To suggest otherwise with such a moronic pseudo-intellectual catchphrase is just another milestone in the right's long history of intellectual cowardice, in the face of an inability to offer any convincing positive defence of their small-minded, self-serving, frankly delusional ideology.

    See also: 'politics of envy' if you are poor and complain about injustice and inhumanity, 'champagne socialist' if you are rich and complain about injustice and inhumanity, 'hand-wringing guardianista lefty' if you are middle class and complain about injustice and inhumanity - and worst of all 'there is no alternative', the last resort of the powerful throughout the ages from feudal times through slavery and beyond in response to calls for progress, from those who either lack the capacity for or deliberately suppress the imagining of a better world.

    Tl;Dr? I'm with the Johns K Galbraith and S Mill on this one. :)
  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236
    Watching Burnham's appalling interview on yesterday's Newsnight, just shows why he is heading for the bottom. He is really an EdM clone. His idea for new nationwide Care policy is good, but when challenged on how it would be effected, all he could come up with was to form a National Commission to work out the detail. Surely he must have some ideas in his mind or else he is just dodging detail completely and truthfully does not have a clue.
    ============================================

    That's right ; the more we see of Andy Burnham the less confidence we have in him ...he is a lousy campaigner and a political weather cock with zero leadership abilities ..in the last leadership election he came nearly last , even Ed Balls beat him and I can well understand why ...he isn't going to win anything

    ANDY BURNHAM R I P
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    A good question. I'm the sure the mayor of Calais, who must a very stressful job, will pop up shortly to explain how this is britains fault in any case.

    Something really has to be done, but what? Part of me just feels like we should accept the whole lot just to end things but of course more will come. Stopping them getting to France just shifts the problem somewhere else. Distressing.

    Good day all.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT New anti-slavery plans to be announced by Cameron today - mainly trafficking people from Vietnam. 13k claimed by campaigners, 130 successful prosecutions for it here!!, 2500 people involved in total according to NCA.

    I can't believe the problem is so large - just watched a docu on David Livingstone last week and what an interesting fellow he was/obsessed giant fibber. Glad I didn't know him if half of it is true.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited July 2015
    JWisemann said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
    I'm not saying some 'centrist' ideas mixed with some genuine left wing ones wouldn't be a decent idea, but that's not what Kendall is offering.
    No idea/policy is any good if it is carried out just because it is right wing, centre or left wing. Each idea/policy has to stand alone on its merits and be good for all its people/society it serves.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
    What have you fixed ? Or do you just talk ?
    When you explain to me why you have a right to know, I will tell you.

    As an outside observer I would say it was probably when you posted this.....

    "I agree. What's the use of a Tory Party that doesn't equate patriotism with homophobia and racism"
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @Plato - I haven't heard Cooper say A SINGLE THING.

    You may have missed this begging letter in the Independent yesterday.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    Indeed; and the way the Labour Party is going the floaters who voted Blair 97-05 will not be coming back either.

    Why is it so difficult to understand? Parties at the fringe do not win elections in large, multifaceted democracies in the absence of an extreme situation.....

  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236
    Another factor working for him which is more of a variable but to be taken into consideration is that Burnham might finish third. If so, it's likely that JC would get a higher proportion of second round transfers (after Kendall) than if it had been Cooper eliminated. Indeed, if we think that Cooper will get the bulk of Kendall's transfers (and I do, both on sisterhood grounds and on political alignment), then Burnham is even more likely to be eliminated second
    ===============================
    I don't think so ; If Burnham does finish third then his second preferences will go to Cooper as a way of stopping Corbyn ...I suspect that Cooper will then have the second preferences of both Kendall and Burnham and enough to win
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited July 2015
    Does a quarter of the population count as a fringe position?
    The conservatives are a similarly fringe party at present, just exploiting a ridiculous electoral system.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804

    @Plato - I haven't heard Cooper say A SINGLE THING.

    You may have missed this begging letter in the Independent yesterday.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html

    That's actually in today's print edition, although it was published online yesterday. So I think Plato can be forgiven for missing it!

    @justin124 - yes, you're correct, my mistake. However, a key difference is that in 1935 and 1987 Labour gained seats after being in opposition. In 1983 and 1931, as in 2015, they lost seats despite being in opposition (only briefly in opposition in 1931, admittedly). This was also true, on a much smaller scale, in 1955 and 1959.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    kle4 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    A good question. I'm the sure the mayor of Calais, who must a very stressful job, will pop up shortly to explain how this is britains fault in any case.

    Something really has to be done, but what? Part of me just feels like we should accept the whole lot just to end things but of course more will come. Stopping them getting to France just shifts the problem somewhere else. Distressing.

    Good day all.
    Violent criminals are not the sort of immigrants that anybody wants.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Riot police? It's an international border FFS. Having travelled through at the weekend, they need rolls of razor wire, power fences and soldiers.

    Tell Eurotunnel and the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Financier said:

    JWisemann said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
    I'm not saying some 'centrist' ideas mixed with some genuine left wing ones wouldn't be a decent idea, but that's not what Kendall is offering.
    No idea/policy is any good if it is carried out just because it is right wing, centre or left wing. Each idea/policy has to stand alone on its merits and be good for all its people/society it serves.
    Stop virtue signalling.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JWisemann said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
    I'm not saying some 'centrist' ideas mixed with some genuine left wing ones wouldn't be a decent idea, but that's not what Kendall is offering.
    No idea/policy is any good if it is carried out just because it is right wing, centre or left wing. Each idea/policy has to stand alone on its merits and be good for all its people/society it serves.
    Stop virtue signalling.
    Another PB meme is born. Joy of joys.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    JWisemann said:

    Does a quarter of the population count as a fringe position?
    The conservatives are a similarly fringe party at present, just exploiting a ridiculous electoral system.

    No, it counts as the majority position; just as it did under Blair in all the elections he won without an absolute majority of the population.

    Are you a '76%er'? Sure sounds like it.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    @Plato - I haven't heard Cooper say A SINGLE THING.

    You may have missed this begging letter in the Independent yesterday.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html

    That's actually in today's print edition, although it was published online yesterday. So I think Plato can be forgiven for missing it!

    @justin124 - yes, you're correct, my mistake. However, a key difference is that in 1935 and 1987 Labour gained seats after being in opposition. In 1983 and 1931, as in 2015, they lost seats despite being in opposition (only briefly in opposition in 1931, admittedly). This was also true, on a much smaller scale, in 1955 and 1959.
    Adding to my earlier point, Labour also did worse in England in 1979 than 2015.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Moses_ said:

    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Wiseman,

    I think "virtue signalling" is a very snappy term and encapsulates exactly what it's about.

    It's much easier feeling good by pointing out that some people are suffering rather than actually doing something. There are people sleeping rough every night. Have you joined the Salvation Army so that you can spend your evening delivering meals and giving them a kind word?

    If you have, I apologise.

    If not, do you get your satisfaction demanding that "somebody should do something"? Do you even think that the Salvation Army are people to be admired?

    Plenty of people are applying elastoplast to rough sleepers without dressing up in weird clothes.

    At least they got of their arses and did something, rather than sitting on forums and social media and pontificating about doing good, then telling all their right on friends at dinner parties that they "made a difference".
    So it's more important to you that people get off their *rses than it is that they fix something.
    What have you fixed ? Or do you just talk ?
    When you explain to me why you have a right to know, I will tell you.

    As an outside observer I would say it was probably when you posted this.....

    "I agree. What's the use of a Tory Party that doesn't equate patriotism with homophobia and racism"
    Irony, dear. You may - just - have heard of it.

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    edited July 2015
    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    edited July 2015
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I don't think that is the same analysis as assigning all the LD and green votes in the last election to Labour, and seeing which seats change hands.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Mortimer said:

    JWisemann said:

    Does a quarter of the population count as a fringe position?
    The conservatives are a similarly fringe party at present, just exploiting a ridiculous electoral system.

    No, it counts as the majority position; just as it did under Blair in all the elections he won without an absolute majority of the population.

    Are you a '76%er'? Sure sounds like it.
    Of course it doesn't count as the majority position as it isn't, and it wasn't under Blair either.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.

    Wow, just demonstrates how tricky their position is at present. Especially as love bombing the Greens will put off 80%ish of Lib Dems south of the Midlands... Given the changing rural demographics, I don't see the southern seats going Yellow or Red anytime soon...

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JWisemann said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    Unsurprisingly, a person with Tory ideas is more popular with Tories than Labour supporters. The quarter of the population that vote Tory already have a party.
    You seem to assume everyone who voted Tory this time agrees with everything they want to do and is a committed Tory. Several million of them are probably able to be tempted away by someone credible who makes some policy concessions to win them over. I don't think that person is Kendall, but winning over people who voted Tory this time but might not next time is surely easier than requiring non voters to vote and to massively boost the popularity of the ieft wing vote.
    I'm not saying some 'centrist' ideas mixed with some genuine left wing ones wouldn't be a decent idea, but that's not what Kendall is offering.
    No idea/policy is any good if it is carried out just because it is right wing, centre or left wing. Each idea/policy has to stand alone on its merits and be good for all its people/society it serves.
    Stop virtue signalling.
    What else are social media and internet forums for? Apart from betting tips of course!

    And surely "virtue signalling" is an age old thing. Anthropologists (Kate Fox has written on this) have shown that complaints and criticism make up about 30% of human interactions in social contexts, establishing norms of behaviour in a non-official way. It is perhaps the modern equivalent of public religion, and equally often a cover for hypocracy. After all Lord Snorty was previously "Virtue Signalling" about what an upstanding member of society he was.

    And perhaps for all its faults "virtue signalling" beats "lack-of-virtue signalling"!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    JWisemann said:

    Mortimer said:

    JWisemann said:

    Does a quarter of the population count as a fringe position?
    The conservatives are a similarly fringe party at present, just exploiting a ridiculous electoral system.

    No, it counts as the majority position; just as it did under Blair in all the elections he won without an absolute majority of the population.

    Are you a '76%er'? Sure sounds like it.
    Of course it doesn't count as the majority position as it isn't, and it wasn't under Blair either.
    I'd forgotten how boring Paddy Ashdown used to get over the 'unfairness' of FPTP.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Wiseman,

    'Virtue signalling' is a polite description.

    Jezza wants a 70% tax rate for the rich. A good idea, and it would be nice if the rich were happy to pay it. Charlotte Church and Owen Jones agree, so being rich, you'd expect them to be sending cheques to HMRC on regular basis.

    But what do we find? They are not just 'virtue signalling', they are being hypocrites. The 'somebody must do something' becomes 'somebody else must do something'.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Mortimer said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.

    Wow, just demonstrates how tricky their position is at present. Especially as love bombing the Greens will put off 80%ish of Lib Dems south of the Midlands... Given the changing rural demographics, I don't see the southern seats going Yellow or Red anytime soon...

    this misleading and agenda driven analysis also ignores the fact that labour's biggest problem was differential turnout, rather than voters going to other parties. Their voters simply didn't turn up. This could change.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I think the original analysis suggest Labour just pile up votes in seats they already hold if they take Green and Lib Dem votes.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    @Plato - I haven't heard Cooper say A SINGLE THING.

    You may have missed this begging letter in the Independent yesterday.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/yvette-cooper-our-choice-is-years-of-tory-rule-under-jeremy-corbyn-or-a-return-to-a-labour-government-10422279.html

    "Ms Cooper’s plan includes a wholesale review to ensure economic growth does not increase carbon emissions; encouraging local action to decarbonise in cities and towns; building more “ecotowns” and developing carbon capture and storage (CCS) to create up to 30,000 jobs by 2030."

    Just how will this be achieved? CCS can be subject to the same technological problem arguments as fracking. How will it be financed - and if the answer is higher energy prices, then you can shut down a lot of the remaining bits of our industries.

    She also says, "We have got to change the world." Just how? Is this easier than changing the EU?

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    JWisemann said:

    Mortimer said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.

    Wow, just demonstrates how tricky their position is at present. Especially as love bombing the Greens will put off 80%ish of Lib Dems south of the Midlands... Given the changing rural demographics, I don't see the southern seats going Yellow or Red anytime soon...

    this misleading and agenda driven analysis also ignores the fact that labour's biggest problem was differential turnout, rather than voters going to other parties. Their voters simply didn't turn up. This could change.
    These are voters which haven't turned up, and which never turn up....

    They're not even voters, they're non-voters. If they can't be motivated to vote against the tories when Ed Miliband was in charge, they're not going to motivated full stop.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Yes, because Miliband really was the most motivational and inspiring leader one could imagine.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    JWisemann said:

    Yes, because Miliband really was the most motivational and inspiring leader one could imagine.

    Which one?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I think the original analysis suggest Labour just pile up votes in seats they already hold if they take Green and Lib Dem votes.
    Electoral Calculus's "Strong Transition Model" is more sophisticated than that.

    http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/strongmodel.html

    Electoral Calculus got the last election wrong like most others but that was because the polls were wrong. If you input the actual shares, it was almost spot on, so I think it is a good model.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    edited July 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I think the original analysis suggest Labour just pile up votes in seats they already hold if they take Green and Lib Dem votes.
    @BArnesian, Slightly misleading because you are adding on Green and Liberal Democrat votes in Scotland - which is on a completely different set up and would actually not gain Labour any seats at all (even in the fairly unlikely event of the Scottish Greens going to Labour not the SNP). Concentrate on the English analysis and the picture is a lot grimmer for LAbour. There simply are not enough left/far-left votes to win a meaningful number of seats. They have to regain votes on the centre and the right.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I think the original analysis suggest Labour just pile up votes in seats they already hold if they take Green and Lib Dem votes.
    Morning all,

    Under what fantastical model would Corbyn win every LibDem vote. I think it far, far more likely that his election would revive the LibDems from the depths in an afternoon.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Tell... the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
    Continent isolated etc etc etc
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JWisemann said:

    Mortimer said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.

    Wow, just demonstrates how tricky their position is at present. Especially as love bombing the Greens will put off 80%ish of Lib Dems south of the Midlands... Given the changing rural demographics, I don't see the southern seats going Yellow or Red anytime soon...

    this misleading and agenda driven analysis also ignores the fact that labour's biggest problem was differential turnout, rather than voters going to other parties. Their voters simply didn't turn up. This could change.
    These are voters which haven't turned up, and which never turn up....

    They're not even voters, they're non-voters. If they can't be motivated to vote against the tories when Ed Miliband was in charge, they're not going to motivated full stop.
    I suspect that Jezza will get out the vote effectively, but unfortunately for him it will be mostly for Tories, LDs and Kippers!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    Barnesian said:


    Electoral Calculus's "Strong Transition Model" is more sophisticated than that.

    http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/strongmodel.html

    Electoral Calculus got the last election wrong like most others but that was because the polls were wrong. If you input the actual shares, it was almost spot on, so I think it is a good model.

    INcidentally it's 42.1, not 43.1 - or 44 in England. But the key thing, as has been pointed out, is where those votes are actually distributed. For example, Labour would retake Bedford, but not Battersea, Blackpool or Broxtowe, because those have vanishingly small Green/Lib Dem shares. Meanwhile, they would massively increase their majorities in Bristol West and similar seats, without actually increasing the number of seats.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Riot police? It's an international border FFS. Having travelled through at the weekend, they need rolls of razor wire, power fences and soldiers.

    Tell Eurotunnel and the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
    I wouldn't rule out further measures.

    I haven't been bowled over by the government's response to this. It's been going on for weeks with very high profile news coverage and it's certainly something people are talking about 'in the office', with concern, and noting our lacklustre response.

    So far it's been: buy and ship a bit more fencing, and send the French a bit more cash. That's just not going to cut it.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015

    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Tell... the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
    Continent isolated etc etc etc
    There are plenty of other continental ports that don't have a problem, so it's hardly 'isolationism'.

    Why aren't there similar issues at Dunkirk, Caen or Boulogne? I haven't seen massive encampments of illegal immigrants at Cherbourg or Le Havre either.

    The Tunnel is clearly the problem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,966
    Morning all. I see Mr Wisemann continues to add to the gaiety of the site.

    *virtue signalling, not waving*
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804


    Morning all,

    Under what fantastical model would Corbyn win every LibDem vote. I think it far, far more likely that his election would revive the LibDems from the depths in an afternoon.

    Which is the point, really. There are more votes on the moderate left than on the far left. And if Corbyn were to become leader and drag the party off in pursuit of these mystical left-wing votes, it would do the Labour party no good because every moderate voter would desert them in a panic. At that point, even his mutterings about only staying for a couple of years become irrelevant - by then, the damage might well be irreversible.

    That is why, again, Tom Watson might not be a bad bet as the leader to take Labour into the next election. God help British politics.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    watford30 said:

    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Tell... the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
    Continent isolated etc etc etc
    There are plenty of other continental ports that don't have a problem, so it's hardly 'isolationism'.

    Why aren't there similar issues at Dunkirk, Caen or Boulogne?
    No tunnel, less lorries to access?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,804
    Financier said:

    watford30 said:

    watford30 said:

    Moses_ said:

    Sky breaking news
    Monday night / Tuesday morning over1500 migrants attempted to storm the eurotunnel. Major damage to fences security overwhelmed. One person died in the attempt

    Massive problems for freight and costing up to 1.5 million a day to local business.

    COBRA meeting today PM chairing.


    It's only a matter of time. ..........

    What is so wrong with France they have to do this???

    Riot police should be permanently deployed now IMHO. This has gone beyond fences.
    Tell... the French authorities that tunnel closure will be enforced unless they get their collective acts into gear.
    Continent isolated etc etc etc
    There are plenty of other continental ports that don't have a problem, so it's hardly 'isolationism'.

    Why aren't there similar issues at Dunkirk, Caen or Boulogne?
    No tunnel, less lorries to access?
    In the case of Caen, it's a longer crossing as well - sensible migrants might well think twice before being trapped in an airless, foodless, waterless container for 6-7 hours on board ship. Hop on a lorry, half an hour by train and then jump off again sounds a lot more attractive.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @rottenborough - Under what fantastical model would Corbyn win every LibDem vote. I think it far, far more likely that his election would revive the LibDems from the depths in an afternoon.

    Speaking of which, the Guardian has an article today on that very subject.

    Mary Dejevsky: - Vote for Jeremy Corbyn, and help raise the Lib Dems from the dead

    [..] the Liberal Democrats should be rooting for Corbyn too. Not because a more leftwing Labour party would necessarily push Blairites in their direction, but because Corbyn-style clarity about what Labour stands for would help the Liberal Democrats to define themselves more clearly – and they could start by giving full meaning to both elements of their name.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/28/jeremy-corbyn-liberal-democrats-dead-labour-party
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    It's the same theory that 'somehow' the Tories would be able to mop up all votes from UKIP somehow...

    It's not going to happen, and won't happen.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,680
    Sean_F said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Financier said:

    JEO said:

    Kendall could still win this thing. She needs about 3% of first preferences net from each of the other contenders, which is pretty much a single positive media cycle. She should have a private poll done showing her surging to second and leak it about 5 days before the race.

    Hardly anyone in the party likes her, however.
    In reality they are more scared of her ideas - too much of the confessional against all they have been propagating for years, and many still do not realise that a lot of the electorate agree with her.
    There are only two people in the race I'd consider voting for: Kendall and Corbyn. They're the only two offering any sort of change. Kendall has interesting stuff to say, but part of me thinks Corbyn will be the one who opposes better and it may surprise the Tories. Not that I have a vote anyway.
    Possibly. There was however an interesting analysis in yesterday's Independent, which I was reading on the train - Corbyn could win every single Green and Liberal Democrat voter from last time around, and would still only gain 26 seats. To actually win an election, he needs to win over EITHER large numbers of UKIP voters OR - perhaps more importantly - large numbers of Tory voters. It's almost impossible to see that happening given his political views.

    (This is the best link I can find for it: http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-independent/20150728/281487865051159/TextView)
    If Labour won every single Green and LibDem voter they would be on a share of 43.1%.

    According to Electoral Calculus, they would gain 59 seats and the Tories would lose 46.
    Labour would have 291 seats to the Tories 285.

    This assumes Labour take no votes from the SNP.
    I think the original analysis suggest Labour just pile up votes in seats they already hold if they take Green and Lib Dem votes.
    I've just done my own calculation for all seats in England and Labour transferring all LibDem and Green votes to Labour, constituency by constituency. Labour gain 49 seats. I haven't had time to do Wales and Scotland
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,169
    edited July 2015
    QI chart. Indications that Cooper rather than Burnham might be the (only just) acceptable face of/for the Labour left.

    https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/626164937036034048
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