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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Re Mr. Cameron’s plan to appoint many more CON peers – the

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Re Mr. Cameron’s plan to appoint many more CON peers – the vote split from GE15

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  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    First
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,509
    edited July 2015
    Second (and covered in paint)

    On topic: the way the HoL is set up is not fit for purpose. Sadly, none of the alternatives (e.g. an elected house) is fir for purpose either.

    Time for my idea: a house of experts!

    (goes off to paint another wall).
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Second (and covered in paint)

    Why? (the paint I mean, not the "second")
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    And adding 50 would add about 6%
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited July 2015
    @taffys said:
    "What's the feeling on the FT having been bought by Nikkei ?

    Japanese bosses tend to look long term and be reasonably benign, in my experience."


    Andrew Neil tweeted this about a lack of scrutiny over Japanese corporate accounting scandals

    https://twitter.com/afneil/statuses/624930279694684160
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    "Five year of tireless work in the greenhouse by the Singapore Botanic Gardens has led to the propagation of an orchid to celebrate the illustrious visit of David Cameron, but it has all ended in a minor diplomatic disaster.

    The beautiful orchid named Papilionanda David Cameron is less Tory blue and more Ukip purple, and might best be rechristened Papilionanda Nigel Farage."


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/28/david-cameron-orchid-papilionanda-singapore-ukip-purple
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    How much do UKIP make up? They seem to be the party truly unfairly treated in all this.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    How much do UKIP make up? They seem to be the party truly unfairly treated in all this.
    Under 1%.

    Strangely, I had a dream about being appointed to the Lords and made Foreign Secretary last night.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    "Five year of tireless work in the greenhouse by the Singapore Botanic Gardens has led to the propagation of an orchid to celebrate the illustrious visit of David Cameron, but it has all ended in a minor diplomatic disaster.

    The beautiful orchid named Papilionanda David Cameron is less Tory blue and more Ukip purple, and might best be rechristened Papilionanda Nigel Farage."


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/28/david-cameron-orchid-papilionanda-singapore-ukip-purple

    Oh dear! Unfortunate, but perhaps the most diplomatic thing to do is shrug off the colour issue and thank them for the courtesy of naming it.

    Of course, they do say that orchids resemble a lady's nether-regions so perhaps Papilionanda Sewell might have been more appropriate?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2015
    FPT
    dr_spyn said:

    taffys said:

    What's the feeling on the FT having been bought by Nikkei ?

    Japanese bosses tend to look long term and be reasonably benign, in my experience.


    Andrew Neil tweeted this about a lack of scrutiny over Japanese corporate accounting scandals

    https://twitter.com/afneil/statuses/624930279694684160
    Further to my lonely "Michael Woodford for leader of the Labour Party" campaign:

    Woodford vs the domesticated Nikkei journalist starts at minute 57

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18728870
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Presumably the Lib Dems aren't going to get any new peers for quite a long while if the aim is to make the House of Lords more numerically representative of the House of Commons.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    You really need to exclude cross-benchers from the total.

  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    A better approach might be to have a working house of half or a third of the number of current peers, with parties supplying peers from their existing pool in proportion to the votes cast at the last GE and with fixed proportions of hereditaries. spirituals and crossbenchers.

    That would also have the happy result of slashing the bloated contingent of Lib Dems...
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    You really need to exclude cross-benchers from the total.

    Labour need to exclude cross-dressers from their total !!!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :smiley:
    kjohnw said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    You really need to exclude cross-benchers from the total.

    Labour need to exclude cross-dressers from their total !!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited July 2015
    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    The Salisbury-Addison convention and the events leading up to its creation excites me in the way that AV/electoral reform discussions do.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    Mike your bar chart is wrong.

    Everyone knows only 24% of the population voted Tory.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Dair said:

    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    I like the idea of a more deliberative chamber to put a check on any extreme feeling that happens to coincide with a single general election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited July 2015
    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    I like the idea of a more deliberative chamber to put a check on any extreme feeling that happens to coincide with a single general election.
    That's what the Committee Stage is supposed to be for.

    Either Committees should be abolished or the Lords should be abolished. I suspect the Committees work out far cheaper and probably have much better ability to call in "appropriate expertise".
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited July 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    without a revising chamber you end up with a lot of ill thought out legislation on the statute books
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    The Salisbury-Addison convention and the events leading up to its creation excites me in the way that AV/electoral reform discussions do.


    Could you not do a thread or two on it? Perhaps we could have a constitution themed week, Salisbury-Addsion convention from Monday through Wednesday and then AV for the rest.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Sean_F said:

    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    The Conservatives currently only make up 29% of the total in the Lords.

    How much do UKIP make up? They seem to be the party truly unfairly treated in all this.
    Under 1%.

    Strangely, I had a dream about being appointed to the Lords and made Foreign Secretary last night.
    What was your first policy move?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    The Salisbury-Addison convention and the events leading up to its creation excites me in the way that AV/electoral reform discussions do.


    Could you not do a thread or two on it? Perhaps we could have a constitution themed week, Salisbury-Addsion convention from Monday through Wednesday and then AV for the rest.
    I'll do a taster thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention this Sunday.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Mike your bar chart is wrong.

    Everyone knows only 24% of the population voted Tory.

    Indeed, the House Of Lords does a great job representing the DNV's, by having a large proportion of their members not turn up either.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @BevC - "a lady's nether-regions"

    You must be refering to the Lady's Slipper Orchid. :lol:

    http://www.hippyshopper.com/lady.jpg
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mike your bar chart is wrong.

    Everyone knows only 24% of the population voted Tory.

    Technically it's less than that. 24% of the electorate voted Tory whereas only 17% of the population voted Tory. The Lords has nothing to do with the electorate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    kjohnw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    without a revising chamber you end up with a lot of ill though out legislation on the statute books
    We ended up with a tonne between 1997 and 2010 anyway. As @Dair points out, committee stage should use this function.

    One parliamentarian who is particularly good at this I always think is Mr Vaz.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    There is no reason why a President of the United Kingdom should be anything more than the figurehead that the Monarch is (while making a strong statement for self-improvement and against inherited position).

    I don't think the Germans or Irish care much who their president is. Those president's can't do anything.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    I like the idea of a more deliberative chamber to put a check on any extreme feeling that happens to coincide with a single general election.
    That's what the Committee Stage is supposed to be for.

    Either Committees should be abolished of the Lords should be abolished. I suspect the Committees work out far cheaper and probably have much better ability to call in "appropriate expertise".
    I don't see how the committee stage avoids representing the views of the electorate at just one point in time.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    This wouldn't be necessary if the sore losers (read Labour and LDs peers) weren't determined to block his manifesto at every turn.

    Cameron should appoint as many peers as necessary to get his programme through.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Cameron wants fewer MPs and more Lords.

    All you need to know.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    kjohnw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    without a revising chamber you end up with a lot of ill thought out legislation on the statute books
    with a revising chamber you end up with a lot of ill thought out legislation on the statute books
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited July 2015
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    There is no reason why a President of the United Kingdom should be anything more than the figurehead that the Monarch is (while making a strong statement for self-improvement and against inherited position).

    I don't think the Germans or Irish care much who their president is. Those president's can't do anything.
    In the cases of a government collapse, constitutional monarchies lead to fresh elections more than republics do, because monarchs don't try to interfere in the way that ceremonial presidents do. Therefore constitutional monarchies actually result in more democracy.

    Also, we would not be the United Kingdom without a monarch. Being the United Republic just sounds rubbish.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    I like the idea of a more deliberative chamber to put a check on any extreme feeling that happens to coincide with a single general election.
    I tend to agree, and I like the idea of such a chamber including experts, academics, retired military figures and so on who would not normally be in such a body adding their expertise as required, and I don't really like the idea of just replicating a second chamber, with presumably still lesser powers, with people elected like the lower chamber.

    On the other hand, it is getting overstuffed again, it's full of semi-retired politicos, so is its particular worth being maximised in its current form?

    Although moderately content then I could be persuaded to either a model where it was elected for some kind of federal system - the best, if forlorn, hope of keeping the UK together - or just going with a single chamber if full elections are to be implemented and the deliberative nature and subordination to the Commons lessened.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

    I did. I'm PB's most passionate advocate of electoral reform and a directly, wholly elected Second Chamber, a proper Senate.

    Perhaps I need to do more posts on electoral reform
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Another example of The Blob, self serving and indifferent.

    Add whining doctors and lawyers to the 'due for major reform' list.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    FPT
    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Dair said:



    ...

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    He can see no reasons
    'Cause there are no reasons
    What reason do you need?

    Tell me why?
    I don't like Mondays.

    Sorry, quite lost the plot there for a moment.

    The HoL has done a reasonable job for about 700 years and no one has yet come up with a generally acceptable alternative which seems to me to be a good enough reason for keeping it as a check on the elected dictatorship provided by the Commons.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

    Ah, the mask slips.

    Cameron should appoint hundreds of new peers if people try and interfere with his programme for government. The bitter undead of the Lib Dems in the Lords can go fly.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    @BevC - "a lady's nether-regions"

    You must be refering to the Lady's Slipper Orchid. :lol:

    http://www.hippyshopper.com/lady.jpg


    Hmmm... whoever named that one was not too familiar with ladies.

    Oh wait... it is the wrong way up!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    edited July 2015
    I don't understand why we replaced dead hereditary lines.

    Without replacement, they'll sort themselves out.

    Then we can abolition the Lords spiritual, immediately reappointing the current batch and most replacements.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Dair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I'm with @Dair on this one, abolishing the Lords would save alot of cash. However I am massively in favour of keeping the Monarchy, or we'd have had the horror of President Gordon Brown & Blair.

    There is no reason why a President of the United Kingdom should be anything more than the figurehead that the Monarch is (while making a strong statement for self-improvement and against inherited position).

    I don't think the Germans or Irish care much who their president is. Those president's can't do anything.
    I really don't understand the idea of elected figurehead presidents to be honest. With a monarch, thesedays, the idea is an apolitical figure to embody the nation and shake hands with visiting worthies, and not get involved really. What's the point of electing someone with almost no powers, who usually is standing for a political party and so, despite efforts, cannot be seen as neutral (though Ireland and other places seem to manage, so I guess they can).

    I'd say either you have a president with power, or no need for one at all. If you still want the head of state to be different than head of government, just rotate a random person to be head of state each year like chairmen of councils.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    The Salisbury-Addison convention and the events leading up to its creation excites me in the way that AV/electoral reform discussions do.


    Could you not do a thread or two on it? Perhaps we could have a constitution themed week, Salisbury-Addsion convention from Monday through Wednesday and then AV for the rest.
    I'll do a taster thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention this Sunday.
    Huzzah!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    Why isn't there a bar chart for

    "Voted LAB"

    "Did NOT vote LAB"

    Anti-Labour bias by Mike!!!!
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    No, the Telegraph is spouting ill-informef opinions. Again.

    The judiciary is enforcing the will of Parliament.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Judge led decision or parliamentary direction, it seems unfair. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    The UNELECTED House of Lords is the ONLY Upper House in the world larger than its respective Lower House. Why are there plans to reduce the number of members of the Lower House?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:



    ...

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    He can see no reasons
    'Cause there are no reasons
    What reason do you need?

    Tell me why?
    I don't like Mondays.

    Sorry, quite lost the plot there for a moment.

    The HoL has done a reasonable job for about 700 years and no one has yet come up with a generally acceptable alternative which seems to me to be a good enough reason for keeping it as a check on the elected dictatorship provided by the Commons.
    The elected dictatorship exists regardless of the Lords and certainly there seems to be little if any effective difference between countries which are unicameral and those which are bicameral (either Federal or not).

    There needs to be a much better argument for the Lords than "it's been there for years".
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    90 new Tory peers should do it. That's roughly equal the LD + Lab totals and allow the crossbenchers the deciding say.

    Which is precisely the way it should be.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Judge led decision or parliamentary direction, it seems unfair. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
    Actually, this has been known for a long time. When I made my will out decades ago I was told to always make provision for relatives or else they would have a basis for challenge. You cannot cut family out of the will. You can leave them a token and you must state the reasons for that and justify it but vindictiveness from beyond the grave has never really worked.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited July 2015

    90 new Tory peers should do it. That's roughly equal the LD + Lab totals and allow the crossbenchers the deciding say.

    Which is precisely the way it should be.

    Arise 'Lord Coulson of Wapping', 'Lady Brooks of Chipping Norton' and 'Lord Clarkson of Notting Hill'. 87 to go.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited July 2015
    Dair said:

    Dair said:



    ...

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    He can see no reasons
    'Cause there are no reasons
    What reason do you need?

    Tell me why?
    I don't like Mondays.

    Sorry, quite lost the plot there for a moment.

    The HoL has done a reasonable job for about 700 years and no one has yet come up with a generally acceptable alternative which seems to me to be a good enough reason for keeping it as a check on the elected dictatorship provided by the Commons.
    The elected dictatorship exists regardless of the Lords and certainly there seems to be little if any effective difference between countries which are unicameral and those which are bicameral (either Federal or not).

    There needs to be a much better argument for the Lords than "it's been there for years".
    Why? As the proponent of change, surely it is up to you to come up with sound reasons? The status quo need not be defended when the proposed changes are not demonstrably better.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
    Where most of us would consider that there is someone for whom the deceased had a clear moral obligation to make some provision, it seems perfectly sensible to me for the courts to use their powers to intervene. On what we have been told of the facts of this case, the Court of Appeal seem to have been measured: the daughter was only awarded a third of the estate.

    I don't see any great constitutional right to be an evil and vindictive will-shaker.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Judge led decision or parliamentary direction, it seems unfair. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
    Scotland abolished feudalism in 2004, so it wouldn't surprise me if some legislation is left over from the Icelandic althing. I wonder if you can still get away with a murder for 200 pieces of silver?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    90 new Tory peers should do it. That's roughly equal the LD + Lab totals and allow the crossbenchers the deciding say.

    Which is precisely the way it should be.

    What about UKIP, the Greens etc?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

    I did. I'm PB's most passionate advocate of electoral reform and a directly, wholly elected Second Chamber, a proper Senate.

    Perhaps I need to do more posts on electoral reform
    Ooh... Yes Please!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    JEO said:

    90 new Tory peers should do it. That's roughly equal the LD + Lab totals and allow the crossbenchers the deciding say.

    Which is precisely the way it should be.

    What about UKIP, the Greens etc?
    Don't much care, but the Greens would only earn a tiny handful and UKIP a dozen or so.

    This is about the elected government of the day overcoming cynical petulant politics to get its manifesto programme through by Lords that are defying convention just because they hate Tories.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:



    ...

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    He can see no reasons
    'Cause there are no reasons
    What reason do you need?

    Tell me why?
    I don't like Mondays.

    Sorry, quite lost the plot there for a moment.

    The HoL has done a reasonable job for about 700 years and no one has yet come up with a generally acceptable alternative which seems to me to be a good enough reason for keeping it as a check on the elected dictatorship provided by the Commons.
    The elected dictatorship exists regardless of the Lords and certainly there seems to be little if any effective difference between countries which are unicameral and those which are bicameral (either Federal or not).

    There needs to be a much better argument for the Lords than "it's been there for years".
    Why? As the proponent of change, surely it is up to you to come up with sound reasons? The status quo need not be defended when the proposed changes are not demonstrably better.
    Put simply.

    It costs money, therefore should be considered against the alternative of spending nothing. That leaves it up to those proposing to continue to spend the money to justify it.

    The only justification anyone seems to be able to give is that it provides a "revising chamber" but it's ability to do this is very suspect when compared to the Committee Stage which offers far more scope for experts (more variety, wider pool, international options) than the Lords does and at a fraction of the cost.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

    I did. I'm PB's most passionate advocate of electoral reform and a directly, wholly elected Second Chamber, a proper Senate.

    Perhaps I need to do more posts on electoral reform
    Interesting.

    Would you keep FPTP as our current electoral system, or would you opt for say AV or some form of PR?
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    The Salisbury-Addison convention and the events leading up to its creation excites me in the way that AV/electoral reform discussions do.


    Could you not do a thread or two on it? Perhaps we could have a constitution themed week, Salisbury-Addsion convention from Monday through Wednesday and then AV for the rest.
    I'll do a taster thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention this Sunday.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_Convention

    The Salisbury Convention (officially called the Salisbury Doctrine,[1] the Salisbury-Addison Convention or the Salisbury/Addison Convention) is a constitutional convention in the United Kingdom under which the House of Lords will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto.[2]

    Following a landslide Labour general election victory in 1945, there were only 16 Labour peers in the House of Lords, led by Lord Addison. Throughout the 20th century, the second chamber had an in-built Conservative majority. However, it was believed that because Clement Attlee's Labour government had a clear mandate to deliver the policies of nationalisation and welfare state measures, the House of Lords should not oppose such legislation at second reading.

    Lord Addison and Lord Salisbury (then Lord Cranborne), the Conservative leader in the House of Lords from 1942 to 1957, both with memories of the troubles leading to the passing of the Parliament Act 1911, agreed that anything promised in a party's manifesto would eventually pass; anything else would be subject to full debate. In its modern form, the convention still permits the offering of reasoned amendments to a motion for second reading of a Government bill, provided such amendments are not wrecking amendments designed to destroy the bill.

    After the Labour general election victory in 2005, the Liberal Democrats indicated that they did not feel bound by the Salisbury Convention as a result of decreasing voter turnout, the low share of the vote received by the Government, and the changes to the composition of the House of Lords introduced in 1999 by the Labour Government.[3]

    In 2006, Tony Blair appointed Lord Cunningham of Felling to chair a joint committee of both Houses of Parliament to investigate possibilities of formalising numerous conventions including the Salisbury Convention.[4]


    References[edit]

    1. "Salisbury Doctrine". Parliament.uk. 2013. Retrieved 2013-02-14.
    2. http://thoughtundermined.com/?p=37#
    3. "House of Lords: conventions" (PDF). House of Commons Library. 2007. Retrieved 2013-02-14.
    4. Lawrence, Jon (January 2007). "What is to be done with the second chamber?". History & Policy. Retrieved 9 December 2010
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I thought the lords existed to prevent bad law being made in haste by governments under pressure from public opinion.

    It seems to do a reasonable job of that.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2015
    antifrank said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
    Where most of us would consider that there is someone for whom the deceased had a clear moral obligation to make some provision, it seems perfectly sensible to me for the courts to use their powers to intervene. On what we have been told of the facts of this case, the Court of Appeal seem to have been measured: the daughter was only awarded a third of the estate.

    I don't see any great constitutional right to be an evil and vindictive will-shaker.
    People aren't allowed to be arseholes now? They had no meaningful relationship for a long time it seems, the daughter is an adult, what obligation is there to provide for her? A moral one, perhaps, I just question if that should be a legal obligation. Perhaps the courts should have stepped in while she was alive and ordered her to mend her relationship with her daughter.

    Question: In my father's will I'm currently down to receive (not that I expect there to be anything much to receive beyond personal effects, the man has hit very hard times) double what my three siblings would individually receive - if that is not suitably justified, and I do not say if it is or not, would that be deemed unreasonable, or do provisions to set aside the wishes of the deceased only apply in cases of no consideration having been given to descendents?

    My issue in this case is the woman provided reasons (if not a connection to those she did leave the money to, the charities), and the court seems to have said they weren't good enough, ie your crappy relationship with your middle aged child is not a reasonable reason, when I'd have thought, when adults are expected to support themselves (or be supproted by the state if they need help), that is an acceptable reason to do what you want with your money, ie not give it to someone.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    All discussion of the House of Lords tends towards the way the Geocentric Model tried to cope with Retrograde Motion - fundamentally unworkable because at its heart it is based on a broken concept.

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    I like the idea of a more deliberative chamber to put a check on any extreme feeling that happens to coincide with a single general election.
    That's what the Committee Stage is supposed to be for.

    Either Committees should be abolished of the Lords should be abolished. I suspect the Committees work out far cheaper and probably have much better ability to call in "appropriate expertise".
    I don't see how the committee stage avoids representing the views of the electorate at just one point in time.
    So what? The members of the committees may (or may not) be inept, but so can the Lords. MPs at least were elected why should the views of an entrenched group of unelected peers overrule them? I don't see why we cannot have an elected second chamber with a specific remit, but I do not think its essential. Of course our nationalist friends merely want to break up the existing irrespective. No monarch is just one less hurdle for them to jump over.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    edited July 2015
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:



    ...

    There is really no reason whatsoever for a non-Federal state to have more than a single legislative chamber.

    He can see no reasons
    'Cause there are no reasons
    What reason do you need?

    Tell me why?
    I don't like Mondays.

    Sorry, quite lost the plot there for a moment.

    The HoL has done a reasonable job for about 700 years and no one has yet come up with a generally acceptable alternative which seems to me to be a good enough reason for keeping it as a check on the elected dictatorship provided by the Commons.
    The elected dictatorship exists regardless of the Lords and certainly there seems to be little if any effective difference between countries which are unicameral and those which are bicameral (either Federal or not).

    There needs to be a much better argument for the Lords than "it's been there for years".
    Why? As the proponent of change, surely it is up to you to come up with sound reasons? The status quo need not be defended when the proposed changes are not demonstrably better.
    Put simply.

    It costs money, therefore should be considered against the alternative of spending nothing. That leaves it up to those proposing to continue to spend the money to justify it.

    The only justification anyone seems to be able to give is that it provides a "revising chamber" but it's ability to do this is very suspect when compared to the Committee Stage which offers far more scope for experts (more variety, wider pool, international options) than the Lords does and at a fraction of the cost.
    Your first premise is false, the alternative is not nothing.
    The Lords serves a function in our parliamentary democracy, the alternative is not "spending nothing".
    The Lords costs money, sure. So Part of the argument against it could be that alternative x is cheaper. But that isn't what is being proposed is it?

    Still can't see any compelling argument to engage in a very costly exercise in reform for an outcome that isn't demonstrably better.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    taffys said:

    I thought the lords existed to prevent bad law being made in haste by governments under pressure from public opinion.

    It seems to do a reasonable job of that.

    Unelected, however.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596

    Time to remind the Lib Dems (and every body else) of the Salisbury-Addison convention ? :smiley:

    The LDs stopped operating that after the 2005 general election when LAB had majority on 35.2% of vote. Why are you only complaining now? You weren't then.

    I did. I'm PB's most passionate advocate of electoral reform and a directly, wholly elected Second Chamber, a proper Senate.

    Perhaps I need to do more posts on electoral reform
    Ooh... Yes Please!
    are you currently wearing a pink bra, snorting coke and surrounded by hookers?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.
    As I said originally, "hands on" attitudes to child development have significantly better outcomes throughout the world than the traditional UK "mother knows best" tradition which appears to fail children. Named Person is one aspect of the wider GIRFEC legislation which is heavily influenced by then Scandinavian approach which has a great record of success.

    It would perhaps be nice to think that a theoretical dogma like "no state intervention" is best. But the reality of the world demonstrates time and time again that with child development it is a failed, broken system.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    JEO said:

    90 new Tory peers should do it. That's roughly equal the LD + Lab totals and allow the crossbenchers the deciding say.

    Which is precisely the way it should be.

    What about UKIP, the Greens etc?
    Don't much care, but the Greens would only earn a tiny handful and UKIP a dozen or so.

    This is about the elected government of the day overcoming cynical petulant politics to get its manifesto programme through by Lords that are defying convention just because they hate Tories.
    taffys said:

    I thought the lords existed to prevent bad law being made in haste by governments under pressure from public opinion.

    It seems to do a reasonable job of that.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Plato said:

    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    http://www.votescotland.org/poll/should-scottish-government-introduce-named-person-scheme

    It seems to be a parent appointed by the state to supercede the biological parents. In every family.

    A tartan Pohl-Pot sort of thing
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    taffys said:

    I thought the lords existed to prevent bad law being made in haste by governments under pressure from public opinion.

    It seems to do a reasonable job of that.

    Yes, it stopped the Dangerous Dogs Act, it stopped the ID Cards at Football, etc, etc.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Plato said:

    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.

    The official line:
    http://www.gov.scot/Topics/People/Young-People/gettingitright/background

    Some concerned voices:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/police-scotland-criticise-snp-named-person-plans-1-3818002

    http://no2np.org/snp-minister-comes-fire-ex-teachers-named-person-plans/
  • I've always thought a decent replacement for the Lords would be a citizens body chosen through the Jury service method for a years length of service.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,336

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Judges overstepping the mark again. They really are completely out of control, aren't they.

    "Your will can be ignored, say judges
    The landmark Court of Appeal ruling has implications for how people should draw up their wills, legal experts say"


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11766651/Your-will-can-be-ignored-say-judges.html

    Yes, it made me wary this morning, and with some time to dwell on it still does now - the lady in question seems to have provided reasons why she didn't want the daughter included, and even if that was harsh, it's her money and she did so of sound mind as shown by providing her reasoning for her wishes. Judge led decision or parliamentary direction, it seems unfair. Though apparently children are automatically granted a certain amount in Scotland?
    Actually, this has been known for a long time. When I made my will out decades ago I was told to always make provision for relatives or else they would have a basis for challenge. You cannot cut family out of the will. You can leave them a token and you must state the reasons for that and justify it but vindictiveness from beyond the grave has never really worked.
    I find this curious. If you have been making provision for your children or, for instance, they have been helping you with care then the provisions of the relevant Act could be used. But there has never been in English law the principle which exists in civil law in much of the Continent and in Scotland to the effect that you have to leave your estate or the bulk of it to your children. It feels like a very Continental European judgment.

    I would like to know more about the facts of this case because it does not seem to me - at least on the facts as reported - that there was any relationship at all, no care by the daughter, no provision by the mother during her lifetime of assistance to the family and, in the absence of some other facts, I don't see why a will drafted by someone of sound mind should be overturned.

    I tend to dislike people - even hard up children in their fifties - who think that they ought to be entitled to their parents' money
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited July 2015
    Plato said:

    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    It's a formalised approach to the "tell a teacher" way of combating child sexual abuse given that over 90% occurs within the family. It's part of a wider framework to provide better child development outcomes heavily influenced by the Scandinavian approach.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    WTF? Apart from the logistics and costs - it's an appalling State blanket intervention for no good reason.

    Plato said:

    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    http://www.votescotland.org/poll/should-scottish-government-introduce-named-person-scheme

    It seems to be a parent appointed by the state to supercede the biological parents. In every family.

    A tartan Pohl-Pot sort of thing
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.
    As I said originally, "hands on" attitudes to child development have significantly better outcomes throughout the world than the traditional UK "mother knows best" tradition which appears to fail children. Named Person is one aspect of the wider GIRFEC legislation which is heavily influenced by then Scandinavian approach which has a great record of success.

    It would perhaps be nice to think that a theoretical dogma like "no state intervention" is best. But the reality of the world demonstrates time and time again that with child development it is a failed, broken system.
    It is "won't somebody think of the children" reactionary bollocks of the worst kind.
    What I want to know, and what so far nobody has been able or willing to answer is:
    When the named person for my children phones me, what will happen when I tell them to bugger off?

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Plato said:

    WTF? Apart from the logistics and costs - it's an appalling State blanket intervention for no good reason.

    Par for the course really - north of the border they created (more or less) a single party state with a leader cult. Training the next generation in correct thinking follows naturally.

    My scottish friend is thinking about moving. What holds him back is that his youngest is 16 so in less than two years it is not an issue for him.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    Plato said:

    WTF? Apart from the logistics and costs - it's an appalling State blanket intervention for no good reason.

    Par for the course really - north of the border they created (more or less) a single party state with a leader cult. Training the next generation in correct thinking follows naturally.

    My scottish friend is thinking about moving. What holds him back is that his youngest is 16 so in less than two years it is not an issue for him.
    Wife and I don't want to leave Edinburgh, but we are increasingly of the mind that we may need to.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    People aren't allowed to be arseholes now? They had no meaningful relationship for a long time it seems, the daughter is an adult, what obligation is there to provide for her? A moral one, perhaps, I just question if that should be a legal obligation. Perhaps the courts should have stepped in while she was alive and ordered her to mend her relationship with her daughter.

    Question: In my father's will I'm currently down to receive (not that I expect there to be anything much to receive beyond personal effects, the man has hit very hard times) double what my three siblings would individually receive - if that is not suitably justified, and I do not say if it is or not, would that be deemed unreasonable, or do provisions to set aside the wishes of the deceased only apply in cases of no consideration having been given to descendents?

    My issue in this case is the woman provided reasons (if not a connection to those she did leave the money to, the charities), and the court seems to have said they weren't good enough, ie your crappy relationship with your middle aged child is not a reasonable reason, when I'd have thought, when adults are expected to support themselves (or be supproted by the state if they need help), that is an acceptable reason to do what you want with your money, ie not give it to someone.

    I don't see why we should allow people to be arseholes in circumstances where they themselves are beyond even the most ethereal detriment from the courts intervening to stop them. Why can't we convert moral obligations into legal obligations in such circumstances?

    It seems highly significant to me that the court attributed the fault for the crappy relationship to the mother. I doubt a prodigal daughter who had had her mother tearing her hair out in distress at her antics would get the same indulgence.

    I can't really comment on your own circumstances but let me give an example from my extended family which may be helpful. I know two sisters, A and B, whose mother is dead. Their stepfather is in his mid-80s and lives on his own. He has four children from another previous marriage. One of his own four children visits once in a blue moon but the others never come. Stepdaughter A visits as often as she can (she lives a long way away from him) and cooks him dinners for freezing and later eating whenever she visits. Stepdaughter B lives 10 minutes away and never visits.

    Five out of six of the younger generation are expecting equal shares when he dies. However, I understand that he has secretly made a will leaving half of the money to A because he takes the view that she's the only one of the pack of them that actually gives a damn about him.

    This is going to cause uproar when he eventually dies but I don't blame him at all. And I doubt a court would intervene in those circumstances.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038
    The idea of the HoL getting any bigger is deeply dispiriting. Perhaps there should be an incentive scheme to encourage over represented parties to find "volunteers" to stand down.

    I really think the time has come to abolish it and replace it with something useful like an English Parliament dealing with devolved matters.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    FPT

    Plato said:

    What changed your mind?



    Anecdata...
    I voted yes in the indyref.
    If a new plebiscite is enacted, I shall vote no.
    I am not the only person I know of with this opinion.

    Police Scotland
    Named Person policy
    Education "policies"
    SNP "antics" in Westminster
    Looming SNP landslide at Holyrood
    SNP activists and the increasing religious feel of the support.
    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.
    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.
    As I said originally, "hands on" attitudes to child development have significantly better outcomes throughout the world than the traditional UK "mother knows best" tradition which appears to fail children. Named Person is one aspect of the wider GIRFEC legislation which is heavily influenced by then Scandinavian approach which has a great record of success.

    It would perhaps be nice to think that a theoretical dogma like "no state intervention" is best. But the reality of the world demonstrates time and time again that with child development it is a failed, broken system.
    It is "won't somebody think of the children" reactionary bollocks of the worst kind.
    What I want to know, and what so far nobody has been able or willing to answer is:
    When the named person for my children phones me, what will happen when I tell them to bugger off?

    No, at it's heart it is an extension of the existing Childrens' Panel for legal process into the heart of social and education provision. Given that the Childrens's Panel is often held up as the Gold Standard worldwide for child legal process, then it has a very good basis to start with.

    When you also consider the long term outcomes in countries with VERY hands on state intervention in child development (the most obvious being those in Scandinavia) it is, as I said, potentially the most important and beneficial legislation in the UK in over 50 years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    taffys said:

    I thought the lords existed to prevent bad law being made in haste by governments under pressure from public opinion.

    It seems to do a reasonable job of that.

    Yes, it stopped the Dangerous Dogs Act, it stopped the ID Cards at Football, etc, etc.
    It didn't stop the "offensive behaviour at football Scotland act" nor the amendment to the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Prescribed Limit) (Scotland) Regulations 2014.

    Two of the worst laws seen on these shores in recent times.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    I've always thought a decent replacement for the Lords would be a citizens body chosen through the Jury service method for a years length of service.

    That, I think, would be a decent replacement for the commons, along with a directly elected PM who could appoint anyone he/she wanted to a minister's post.

    The Lords would be better without the political appointees (i.e. working peers) and failed politicians elevated as a top up to their pension.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Do we know what the age profile is of the Lords?

    Is the attrition rate due to natural causes high enough to reduce it's overall size if we had a moratorium on new peers for the rest of this Parly after Cameron lobs in enough to get the balance even up?
    DavidL said:

    The idea of the HoL getting any bigger is deeply dispiriting. Perhaps there should be an incentive scheme to encourage over represented parties to find "volunteers" to stand down.

    I really think the time has come to abolish it and replace it with something useful like an English Parliament dealing with devolved matters.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Wife and I don't want to leave Edinburgh, but we are increasingly of the mind that we may need to.

    :(


  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:


    There is no reason why the SNP would be the government of an independent Scotland (and a lot of reasons why they would not be).

    Out of interest, GIRFEC could turn out to be one of the best pieces of legislation passed anywhere in the UK by any government in the last 50 years. Countries with a strong "hands on" approach to child development have significantly better outcomes than "hands off" states.

    SNP would certainly be the first government, and that is enough.

    The Named Person policy is illiberal statist nonsense. As best it can be described as a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, and that is if I'm inclined to be kind, which I'm not. It's a dog's dinner of a proposal and will not measurably make "vulnerable" children safer; many have claimed that it will have the direct opposite effect.
    As I said originally, "hands on" attitudes to child development have significantly better outcomes throughout the world than the traditional UK "mother knows best" tradition which appears to fail children. Named Person is one aspect of the wider GIRFEC legislation which is heavily influenced by then Scandinavian approach which has a great record of success.

    It would perhaps be nice to think that a theoretical dogma like "no state intervention" is best. But the reality of the world demonstrates time and time again that with child development it is a failed, broken system.
    It is "won't somebody think of the children" reactionary bollocks of the worst kind.
    What I want to know, and what so far nobody has been able or willing to answer is:
    When the named person for my children phones me, what will happen when I tell them to bugger off?

    No, at it's heart it is an extension of the existing Childrens' Panel for legal process into the heart of social and education provision. Given that the Childrens's Panel is often held up as the Gold Standard worldwide for child legal process, then it has a very good basis to start with.

    When you also consider the long term outcomes in countries with VERY hands on state intervention in child development (the most obvious being those in Scandinavia) it is, as I said, potentially the most important and beneficial legislation in the UK in over 50 years.
    If the current Children's Panel is indeed held up as some sort of "Gold Standard", then why change it?

    I'm glad you are a true believer, perhaps you can answer my previous question?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    DavidL said:

    The idea of the HoL getting any bigger is deeply dispiriting. Perhaps there should be an incentive scheme to encourage over represented parties to find "volunteers" to stand down.

    I really think the time has come to abolish it and replace it with something useful like an English Parliament dealing with devolved matters.

    Alternatively they could perform an orange-bra check. That seems to be the current method of leaving the HoL these days. A bit like joining the Chiltern Hundreds but considerably racier...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    Plato said:

    That's interesting, thanks.

    What's the Named Person thingy?

    It's a formalised approach to the "tell a teacher" way of combating child sexual abuse given that over 90% occurs within the family. It's part of a wider framework to provide better child development outcomes heavily influenced by the Scandinavian approach.
    The Scottish state knows best !
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