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adamandcat

Aargh

Tissue_Price

Some things are more important than power.

Seemingly.

That might get reassessed in 2025.

Casino_Royale

Quite a lot of morons in the Labour Party it seems.

MTimT

A political party perpetually out of government is .... what?

TheScreamingEagles

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.

Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

FrancisUrquhart

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

Casino_Royale

MTimT said:

A political party perpetually out of government is .... what?

The Liberal Democrats.

TGOHF

TheScreamingEagles said:

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.

Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

Perhaps the non Corbyn 3 should pull out and demand Hattie stays on for 2 years.

Then get Watson to knife her after 1.

blackburn63

TheScreamingEagles said:

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.

Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

I think they should all pull out and start again. I listened to the Dale debates this morning, what a dreadful bunch, at least Corbyn had the conviction to answer questions. Burnham looked like he was on Blind Date, Cooper sits on every fence, Kendall is miles out of her depth.

Casino_Royale

blackburn63 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.

Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

I think they should all pull out and start again. I listened to the Dale debates this morning, what a dreadful bunch, at least Corbyn had the conviction to answer questions. Burnham looked like he was on Blind Date, Cooper sits on every fence, Kendall is miles out of her depth.

I didn't think Kendall was too bad actually. She talked normal.

Corbyn was straight and earnest. Cooper and Burnham vapid and insipid.

oxfordsimon

blackburn63 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.

Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

I think they should all pull out and start again. I listened to the Dale debates this morning, what a dreadful bunch, at least Corbyn had the conviction to answer questions. Burnham looked like he was on Blind Date, Cooper sits on every fence, Kendall is miles out of her depth.

Their egos are too big to contemplate that...

Financier

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

Tissue_Price

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

Or perhaps they are both intending to tack right once they've won, but can't say that because 40% (and growing by the day) of their electorate is deluded? Give them both some credit.

SouthamObserver

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

Disraeli

With the Corbyn's strong showing in the leadership battle demonstrating that there is a resurgence of the left within the party, I suggest that the party song is updated.

My humble suggestion:

The People's Flag is deepest red,
and now the Blairites all are dead.
Our principles will not be sold,
we're turning back to views of old.

Chorus:
So raise the scarlet standard high.
The SNP will from us fly,
We'll make the Tories shirk with fear,
And no more LibDems "winning here".

We'll increase tax and VAT,
To fight against austerity.
Well tax the rich and tax the banks,
'cos we're as thick as two short planks,

Chorus:
So raise the scarlet standard high. etc.

We'll end the workers sorrowing,
by ramping up our borrowing,
and nasty cuts will have to cease,
While we watch National Debt increase.

Chorus:
So raise the scarlet standard high. etc.

We'll weaponise the NHS,
And spend and spend to great excess.
And we'll keep hold of Number 10,
till we rush out of cash again.

DavidL

If you have any idea how hard it is to type on this damn iPad with this lousy Internet you probably would not be so unreasonable as to start a new thread when I was re typing something for the 3rd time. Anyone interested in my thoughts can look at the last thread. Did I mention it is too hot here?

TheWhiteRabbit

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

I think there is a happy medium between directionless and a full raft of policies. Corbyn has a direction, he's been on the back benches for yonks. Kendall too has something, even if he struggles to articulate it sometimes. But I would struggle to describe the Burnham or Cooper Labour party even if they could implement what they like.

Richard_Nabavi

Tissue_Price said:

Or perhaps they are both intending to tack right once they've won, but can't say that because their electorate is deluded? Give them both some credit.

Yes but they are doing so very poorly. Surely they should be able to at least sound as though they are saying something. It is so transparent that even Labour activists have been able to see through it.

TGOHF

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

True - Ed had 5 years and came up with virtually zero other than "bash business" .

Perhaps by 2030 they might have something.

oxfordsimon

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

I don't think anyone is demanding a full policy platform. But there is no real sense from them of a clear strategy for producing that platform. No sense of the direction of travel. No engagement with what might have created a 2nd major defeat at the ballot box.

And if they weren't thinking about the post-Miliband period over the past 2 years, they really should have been. The writing was on the wall even if it wasn't being reflected in the published polling.

felix

I suspect that we have an electorate which reflects the quality of the offer and vice versa. Much blame for this state of affairs goes to Miliband and Unite but bad as they are this campaign is showing in graphic form how out of touch party members are with the general public - and I believe this applies to all parties. They're all on 'another planet'.

Pulpstar

blackburn63 said:

I think they should all pull out and start again.

This must be the thinking behind the "King over the Water" backers' betting method

Plato

I've just watched the whole LBC debate and I can't recall a single thing Yvette, Liz sounded pretty Blairite about regaining our economic credibility - Andy just floundered completely and doesn't know how to compete for heart-strings against Corbyn.

I'd give Burnham the worst performance hands down. His I Did God But Don't Now, But Do For My Kids was a good example of trying to weathervane with the others.

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

Slackbladder

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

A 'flagship' policy or aim should be reasonable though shouldn't it.

Hasn't stopped Corbyn, he's scrapping tuition fees and renationalising the railways, and thats just him getting started.

SouthamObserver

I think there is a happy medium between directionless and a full raft of policies. Corbyn has a direction, he's been on the back benches for yonks. Kendall too has something, even if he struggles to articulate it sometimes. But I would struggle to describe the Burnham or Cooper Labour party even if they could implement what they like.



That's because they are going after transfers etc. They want to offend as few people as possible. This kind of election is never going to provoke a full and frank exchange of ideas. One of Kendall's mistakes seems to have been not to appreciate how AV works; while Corbyn is not shackled by any real desire to win. I agree that neither Burnham nor Cooper is that inspiring, but the time to make calls about Labour is in the autumn and early winter. If Corbyn is in charge we know they are going to be out of power for a minimum of ten years (assuming he is not toppled), but if it is one of the others there will be more to think about and to assess.

SouthamObserver

oxfordsimon said:

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

I don't think anyone is demanding a full policy platform. But there is no real sense from them of a clear strategy for producing that platform. No sense of the direction of travel. No engagement with what might have created a 2nd major defeat at the ballot box.

And if they weren't thinking about the post-Miliband period over the past 2 years, they really should have been. The writing was on the wall even if it wasn't being reflected in the published polling.

It seems pretty clear that most people in most parties were expecting a hung Parliament.

DavidL

Surely there are some in Labour who want to win? Listen to the master:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11755273/Tony-Blair-speech-Labour-does-not-have-to-choose-between-power-and-principle.htm


I just don't believe that any of them are capable of writing something like that, not even Kendall sadly.

DavidL

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

john_zims

@Tissue_Price

'Some things are more important than power'

Excellent comedy though,the viewership must be increasing with each husting,even Nigel from Kent couldn't resist the fun last night.

SouthamObserver

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Disraeli

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

She has.
Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper would not serve in Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/22/jeremy-corbyn-could-lose-frontbenchers-if-elected-labour-leader

William_H

In part this reflects that Corbyn backers actually like his policies while many of those who support other candidates could only justify it by pragmatism.

I notice that looking at the table from that poll, Corbyn supporters could generally find more reasons to support their candidate than others. People were asked to pick two or three reasons, so the answers should add up to between 200 and 300. Numbers are Corbyn 257, Kendall 247, Cooper 243, Burnham 234

DavidL

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Right. Thanks. It is hard keeping in touch without a proper internet link. Looks like yet another reason not to vote for Burnham.

Sean_F

So what? Winning elections is for pussies.

blackburn63

Loved the question from Nigel in Kent about the EU, they all strapped themselves to the EU mast. Nigel hasn't had an easy time lately, that would have put a spring in his step.

kle4

Is there any truth to the rumour that the only reason the Labour leadership campaign was scheduled to take so long was to provide OGH with plenty of material for quiet summer month threads?

Casino_Royale

Disraeli said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

She has.
Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper would not serve in Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/22/jeremy-corbyn-could-lose-frontbenchers-if-elected-labour-leader

That seems to have made CiF go apeshit. Over 5,000 comments inside 7 hours?

SimonStClare

Last month the three main leadership contenders were deemed by one and all as a pretty poor lot, little did we know that that was their high point. Their fear of saying anything remotely contentious and general blandness actually makes Corbyn look good.

TCPoliticalBetting

Disraeli great words.

taffys

So what? Winning elections is for pussies.

I think right now labour's main need is to be at ease with itself. Something it hasn't been since Blair became leader.

With Corbyn, the party would be at least be at peace.

SouthamObserver

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Right. Thanks. It is hard keeping in touch without a proper internet link. Looks like yet another reason not to vote for Burnham.

He knows it's what the members want to hear. Whether he actually would or not is a moot point. If he does not beat Corbyn he is dead meat anyway, much like Cooper.

MikeSmithson

kle4 said:

Is there any truth to the rumour that the only reason the Labour leadership campaign was scheduled to take so long was to provide OGH with plenty of material for quiet summer month threads?

Absolutely.

Normally at this time of year it can be quite a struggle doing 3 post a day.

SouthamObserver

Casino_Royale said:

Disraeli said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

She has.
Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper would not serve in Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/22/jeremy-corbyn-could-lose-frontbenchers-if-elected-labour-leader

That seems to have made CiF go apeshit. Over 5,000 comments inside 7 hours?

As neat an encapsulation as any as to why it is always wise to give away as little as possible in this kind of election.

Sean_F

Casino_Royale said:

Disraeli said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

She has.
Liz Kendall and Yvette Cooper would not serve in Jeremy Corbyn shadow cabinet
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/22/jeremy-corbyn-could-lose-frontbenchers-if-elected-labour-leader

That seems to have made CiF go apeshit. Over 5,000 comments inside 7 hours?

Okay then, with Corbyn as Leader, Dennis Skinner will be Shadow Chancellor, and Diane Abbott will be Shadow Foreign Secretary.

Cyclefree

@RichardNabavi: Thank you for the tip. I will have a closer look.

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

So what? Winning elections is for pussies.

Ha. That said, I do wonder how much values-signalling is going on with Corbyn.

How many of those CiFers are actually joining up to Labour, paying £3 and bothering to go to the effort of actually voting for him?

Like at the election, I suspect there are plenty who want to wash their socialist credentials in public but are much more apathetic or pragmatic in private.

oxfordsimon

taffys said:

So what? Winning elections is for pussies.

I think right now labour's main need is to be at ease with itself. Something it hasn't been since Blair became leader.

With Corbyn, the party would be at least be at peace.

For a short period. A Corbyn victory would mean a huge number of activists are going to feel their home is no longer in the Labour Party. It would be a matter of fight and/or flight.

The peace would be very short-lived.

DavidL

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Right. Thanks. It is hard keeping in touch without a proper internet link. Looks like yet another reason not to vote for Burnham.

He knows it's what the members want to hear. Whether he actually would or not is a moot point. If he does not beat Corbyn he is dead meat anyway, much like Cooper.

Well yes. As a working definition of useless that would do it.

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

Saw a German reading it on one of the sun beds this morning Sean.

Disraeli

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Disraeli great words.

Thank You, you are too kind.

JEO

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

More importantly, there are no policies to be offered. The centre left, and social democracy, in the way we understand it, is dead. As we see right across Europe.

China, and the other beneficiaries of globalisation, have shifted economic reality several light years to the right. They are outcompeting us in almost every arena, without our absurdly generous welfare systems to hold them back. Wages in the west are therefore stagnant, and will remain so for years, maybe decades. The computerisation of work adds to this secular trend.

The only sensible answer to this is for the West to rein in its welfare budgets - i.e. austerity. That's why moderate, sensible left wing parties are now forced to sound like slightly diluted rightwing parties. Economic truth is rightwing.

The other alternative is to go full on Chavez, like Syriza, or Corbyn, which can be electorally very popular for a while, until the banks close down and the supermarkets run out of food, and grannies are eaten by wolverines.

Reality is really giving the left a hard time of it. The rise of Islamic terrorism is really shining a very clear light on the failures of multiculturalism. The refugee crisis is bringing immigration - never a good battlefront for the left - onto the news every night. And the European Union is proving itself to be the economic disaster and undemocratic nightmare that eurosceptics always said it was. You can become a fiscally prudent, controlled borders, moderate eurosceptic party, but then that's pretty much Cameroonism.

AndyJS

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

philiph

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Is it on strike, building a barricade of itself at Calais and about to self combust?

TGOHF

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

China, and the other beneficiaries of globalisation, have shifted economic reality several light years to the right. They are outcompeting us in almost every arena, without our absurdly generous welfare systems to hold them back. Wages in the west are therefore stagnant, and will remain so for years, maybe decades. The computerisation of work adds to this secular trend.

The only sensible answer to this is for the West to rein in its welfare budgets - i.e. austerity. That's why moderate, sensible left wing parties are now forced to sound like slightly diluted rightwing parties. Economic truth is rightwing.

The other alternative is to go full on Chavez, like Syriza, or Corbyn, which can be electorally very popular for a while, until the banks close down and the supermarkets run out of food, and grannies are eaten by wolverines.

Good summary - how would your average CiF'er respond ? They would suggest that there are still plenty of wealthy people within our borders - and until their bones have been licked clean of the last farthing then all welfare should remain. The concept of "undeserving welfare" doesn't exist in CiF land - nor does the consequences of arresting the funds of the wealthy matter to them - they have always been a live for now, hell to the future sect.

DavidL

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

More importantly, there are no policies to be offered. The centre left, and social democracy, in the way we understand it, is dead. As we see right across Europe.

China, and the other beneficiaries of globalisation, have shifted economic reality several light years to the right. They are outcompeting us in almost every arena, without our absurdly generous welfare systems to hold them back. Wages in the west are therefore stagnant, and will remain so for years, maybe decades. The computerisation of work adds to this secular trend.

The only sensible answer to this is for the West to rein in its welfare budgets - i.e. austerity. That's why moderate, sensible left wing parties are now forced to sound like slightly diluted rightwing parties. Economic truth is rightwing.

The other alternative is to go full on Chavez, like Syriza, or Corbyn, which can be electorally very popular for a while, until the banks close down and the supermarkets run out of food, and grannies are eaten by wolverines.

Left wing parties need to think what they are for in such a world. As someone pretty centrist I think they should be for those that lose out in the international race, those who don't get a fair chance because of poor education or difficult social circumstances, those who are either disabled or less abled and who need a helping hand from a much more individualistic but still compassionate society.

But they need to recognise, as Blair did, that it does not help those they want to help to drag the more competitive back, quite the reverse. To help those that need it we need a more dynamic economy, not one subject to an extra £120bn of taxes.

Corbyn is a symptom of Labour's reluctance to come to terms with reality. The question is does Labour want to re fight 1983 or 2010? None of the candidates have anything to say about 2020.

JEO

It sounds like rickshaws in London needs to be regulated. £206 for a few minutes ride!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs6MWWReVxg

SouthamObserver

SeanT said:

SouthamObserver said:

Financier said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It really is a depressing sight, that Labour's new leader are going to come from those 4. It is like the state of US presidential candidates, all c##p and/or tainted.

What I find most depressing in the total lack of strategic direction, practical and realistic policies and any clue about how to prevent an even worse Labour result in 2020 by Burnham and Cooper.

Perhaps they both are in the denial stage or are just so pathetic that they are just blinded by tears of grief and mourning.

I find it extraordinary that anyone should expect any of them to have come up with a full raft of policies just two months after an election they expected would return them to power and five years before the next one is to take place.

More importantly, there are no policies to be offered. The centre left, and social democracy, in the way we understand it, is dead. As we see right across Europe.

China, and the other beneficiaries of globalisation, have shifted economic reality several light years to the right. They are outcompeting us in almost every arena, without our absurdly generous welfare systems to hold them back. Wages in the west are therefore stagnant, and will remain so for years, maybe decades. The computerisation of work adds to this secular trend.

The only sensible answer to this is for the West to rein in its welfare budgets - i.e. austerity. That's why moderate, sensible left wing parties are now forced to sound like slightly diluted rightwing parties. Economic truth is rightwing.

The other alternative is to go full on Chavez, like Syriza, or Corbyn, which can be electorally very popular for a while, until the banks close down and the supermarkets run out of food, and grannies are eaten by wolverines.

Yep, I agree with much of that. However:
1. The size of the Chinese welfare state is expanding, as is protection for workers. The same applies in most Asia countries
2. Successful, sustainable economies rely on the productivity of their workers which in turn relies on a number of factors including, but not limited to, healthy, happy and motivated workforces, top class infrastructure and as wide a talent pool as possible etc.
3. Societies in which there is equality of opportunity and everyone rubs together pretty well tend to function better in the long term than those where there are extremes of wealth and where elites are entrenched.
Capitalism won the big battle three decades ago, but nothing else has yet been determined.

felix

MikeSmithson said:

kle4 said:

Is there any truth to the rumour that the only reason the Labour leadership campaign was scheduled to take so long was to provide OGH with plenty of material for quiet summer month threads?

Absolutely.

Normally at this time of year it can be quite a struggle doing 3 post a day.

3 times a day can be a struggle at any time of the year

welshowl

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Right. Thanks. It is hard keeping in touch without a proper internet link. Looks like yet another reason not to vote for Burnham.

He knows it's what the members want to hear. Whether he actually would or not is a moot point. If he does not beat Corbyn he is dead meat anyway, much like Cooper.

Well yes. As a working definition of useless that would do it.

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

Saw a German reading it on one of the sun beds this morning Sean.

Been reading it since early them had he?

Sean_F

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

DavidL

welshowl said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

SouthamObserver said:

DavidL said:

When will one of them have the balls (yes, I mean you Yvette) to say they will not serve under Corbyn?

Both Kendall and Cooper have said they wouldn't apparently. Burnham has said he would.

Right. Thanks. It is hard keeping in touch without a proper internet link. Looks like yet another reason not to vote for Burnham.

He knows it's what the members want to hear. Whether he actually would or not is a moot point. If he does not beat Corbyn he is dead meat anyway, much like Cooper.

Well yes. As a working definition of useless that would do it.

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

Saw a German reading it on one of the sun beds this morning Sean.

Been reading it since early them had he?

Lol some things don't change.

AlastairMeeks

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

taffys

Capitalism won the big battle three decades ago, but nothing else has yet been determined.

Absolutely. what the left needs is internationalism. If there are no places where billionaires can avoid taxes, I guess they would pay more.

Fact is, countries are played off against each other.

Flightpathl

Just be grateful we do not have to spend £3 to place an oplnion.

kle4 said:

Is there any truth to the rumour that the only reason the Labour leadership campaign was scheduled to take so long was to provide OGH with plenty of material for quiet summer month threads?

AlastairMeeks

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Another example of this is Touching The Void. Chris Anderson relates the story at the beginning of The Long Tail:

http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html

Roger

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Plato

Golly. I'm sure lots of people wouldn't want anyone to know where they've been when they were meant to be elsewhere!

'Your Timeline allows you to visualize your real-world routines, easily see the trips you’ve taken and get a glimpse of the places where you spend your time.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3171415/Google-really-does-know-ve-Search-giant-reveals-terrifyingly-scary-timeline-feature-users-history.html

Animal_pb

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

As a number of people have observed, there are lots of - on their own - not terribly conclusive/authoritative polls that, when taken as a whole, do seem remarkably consistent. I was particularly struck by the poll that found that (effectively) it was twice as important to supporters for Labour to oppose the Tories as it was to actually win elections.

They're in a bad place right now.

Jonathan

Animal_pb said:

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

As a number of people have observed, there are lots of - on their own - not terribly conclusive/authoritative polls that, when taken as a whole, do seem remarkably consistent. I was particularly struck by the poll that found that (effectively) it was twice as important to supporters for Labour to oppose the Tories as it was to actually win elections.

They're in a bad place right now.

Clearly Labour are in a bad place, but that could be read in two ways.

Labour's immediate task is to provide an effective HM opposition, which is a very noble thing to do. Elections do come later.

Flightpathl

TheScreamingEagles said:

Even Burnham supporters admit he is crap and not likely to lead them to an election victory.
Andy Burnham is the one who should pull out, not Liz Kendall.

Well we have all known that ABlC.
When he becomes favourite you know the cupboard is bare. Even on the basis of 'last man standing' the choice is vapid. But what is worse for Labour is that has been unleashed now is civil war, the opposite of what was intended by putting Corbyn on the ballot.
The illogic of putting someone on the ballot that you thought was useless has been exposed. If the Parliamentary Party do not want a candidate they should not nominate them. This is the point of the nomination rule.

Recidivist

The thing is Corbyn went into this contest with every expectation of being humiliated. If he does win it, it will show that not having any ambition to win is not in fact a barrier to winning an election. (Not that I think he will win, just to be consistent with my other posts.)

MTimT

Sorry if someone earlier in the thread has highlighted this great news story out of China, but I can't resist. Isn't "officers were forced to take action to control the "foreigners in short pants"" the best explanation ever as to why arrests had to be made?

http://www.voanews.com/content/chinese-police-detain-spartan-warriors/2874588.html

Sean_F

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Fascinating. Never knew that. Gives me hope for my very first novel, Absent Fathers, published in 1999, which, as I write this, has sold 376 copies in its first 16 years.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Absent-Fathers-Sean-Thomas/dp/0595002463/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437661727&sr=1-1&keywords=absent+fathers+sean+thomas


I note that it stands at 7,433,474 in the amazon rankings, which may mean it is actually the worst selling book on their list.

George Martin almost destroyed his writing career with The Armageddon Rag in 1984, for which he got paid a big advance, received good reviews, and which turned out to be a commercial disaster. Although he continued to publish short stories, no publisher would touch any of his novels until A Game of Thrones, in 1996. Even that took some years to start selling strongly. Today, his total sales are probably at about 70m and rising fast.

Animal_pb

Jonathan said:

Animal_pb said:

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

As a number of people have observed, there are lots of - on their own - not terribly conclusive/authoritative polls that, when taken as a whole, do seem remarkably consistent. I was particularly struck by the poll that found that (effectively) it was twice as important to supporters for Labour to oppose the Tories as it was to actually win elections.

They're in a bad place right now.

Clearly Labour are in a bad place, but that could be read in two ways.

Labour's immediate task is to provide an effective HM opposition, which is a very noble thing to do. Elections do come later.

With respect, if you are reading it that way, may I suggest a trip to Specsavers? The question was clearly about tribal enmity, not some parliamentary ideal. Seriously.

SimonStClare

Tim Bale: A Corbyn-inspired split would be a Labour catastrophe – just look at Europe

From Scandinavia to Greece, great social democratic parties are being reduced to bit players. It’s a nightmare vision that should bring Labour to its senses.

(comment section don't agree shock)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/23/jeremy-corbyn-split-labour-nightmare-vision-europe-social-democratic-parties

DaemonBarber

Roger said:

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Axl Rose is an enormous knob-end
But he is/was phenomenally talented.
Just listen to Appetite for Destruction. Still relevant and still rocks almost 30 years after it was released (1987)

MTimT

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Publishers around the US lamented the demise of Oprah's book club. But then she also catapulted a lot of complete dross, not to mention fabrication, onto the best sellers lists.

TheScreamingEagles

DaemonBarber said:

Roger said:

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Axl Rose is an enormous knob-end
But he is/was phenomenally talented.
Just listen to Appetite for Destruction. Still relevant and still rocks almost 30 years after it was released (1987)

Axl Rose is also one of the greatest anagrams in history

Plato

I saw a great docu about him ages ago - he is a nutcase. Chinning anyone who annoyed him was par for the course!

He wasn't pretending to be a bad boy.

DaemonBarber said:

Roger said:

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Axl Rose is an enormous knob-end
But he is/was phenomenally talented.
Just listen to Appetite for Destruction. Still relevant and still rocks almost 30 years after it was released (1987)

Sean_F

MTimT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Publishers around the US lamented the demise of Oprah's book club. But then she also catapulted a lot of complete dross, not to mention fabrication, onto the best sellers lists.

There is indeed a lot of complete crap which sells very well.

It amazes me that anyone is prepared to part with money for Fifty Shades of Shit, or anything written by Sidney Sheldon or Dan Brown.

DaemonBarber

Plato said:

I saw a great docu about him ages ago - he is a nutcase. Chinning anyone who annoyed him was par for the course!

He wasn't pretending to be a bad boy.

DaemonBarber said:

Roger said:

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Axl Rose is an enormous knob-end
But he is/was phenomenally talented.
Just listen to Appetite for Destruction. Still relevant and still rocks almost 30 years after it was released (1987)

GnR were bad boys, that's for sure.
Around the time of Appetite, Duff was an alcoholic and Slash was nursing a heroin addiction.
They were leading very messed-up lives, and if the album had bombed, i don't think they would all still be alive.

TheScreamingEagles

Sean_F said:

MTimT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Publishers around the US lamented the demise of Oprah's book club. But then she also catapulted a lot of complete dross, not to mention fabrication, onto the best sellers lists.

There is indeed a lot of complete crap which sells very well.

It amazes me that anyone is prepared to part with money for Fifty Shades of Shit, or anything written by Sidney Sheldon or Dan Brown.

I generally read Dan Brown, Fifty Shades and the Twilight series for comedy value.

I was inordinately proud when I put a Fifty Shades reference in to a recent thread header.

MTimT

SimonStClare said:

Tim Bale: A Corbyn-inspired split would be a Labour catastrophe – just look at Europe

From Scandinavia to Greece, great social democratic parties are being reduced to bit players. It’s a nightmare vision that should bring Labour to its senses.

(comment section don't agree shock)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/23/jeremy-corbyn-split-labour-nightmare-vision-europe-social-democratic-parties

Love the comment asking why the Labour party getting the leader it wants fills everyone with such fear.

Not everyone, of course...

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

MTimT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

AndyJS said:

SeanT said:

Talking of Labour attitudes to Europe, Eisige Schwestern by S K Tremayne, has just recorded its eighth week in the German Top Ten.

Dunno about Labour, but I'm voting IN.

How's the French version doing?

Not out yet. Published September 3. It has a nice cover, and some promising early blog reactions.... the publishers are very optimistic..... but you never know.

http://www.babelio.com/livres/Tremayne-Le-doute/726414


We had some good blog reactions in America and yet it's done nothing over there. So much of this is down to luck, it is slightly unnerving. The right review in the right place (preferably TV) and a book can go viral.

On the other hand, most books disappear without trace, whatever their merits. Eeek.

And some books which turn out to be phenomenal best sellers can take a long time to become popular.

Sales of The Lord of the Rings were no better than okay from 1954 to 1966, but then went viral when a paperback edition came out in the States. Probably about 200 m copies of the book have now been sold.

Publishers around the US lamented the demise of Oprah's book club. But then she also catapulted a lot of complete dross, not to mention fabrication, onto the best sellers lists.

There is indeed a lot of complete crap which sells very well.

It amazes me that anyone is prepared to part with money for Fifty Shades of Shit, or anything written by Sidney Sheldon or Dan Brown.

Don't tell my wife that. She's reading all of those fifty shades books at the moment and keeps blushing on the train.

saddened

Plato said:

Golly. I'm sure lots of people wouldn't want anyone to know where they've been when they were meant to be elsewhere!

'Your Timeline allows you to visualize your real-world routines, easily see the trips you’ve taken and get a glimpse of the places where you spend your time.' http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3171415/Google-really-does-know-ve-Search-giant-reveals-terrifyingly-scary-timeline-feature-users-history.html

A large number of the users of that service will inevitably fall into the same category of people who believe Snowdon did the world a favour by revealing state secrets. Little realising they have much more intrusion from commercial companies than the government, but are okay with it because it makes their lives a teeny bit easier.

taffys

''GnR were bad boys, that's for sure.''

It often strikes me how many rock stars are still going, considering the ways they must have abused themselves.

AlastairMeeks

The Guardian is taking on the noisiest section of its readership. This will have lasting consequences for it, I suspect.

EPG

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

Of course winning is not the most important thing.

If you offered them a guaranteed win under Tony Blair tomorrow, or the luck of the draw, which do you think they would take?

AlastairMeeks

taffys said:

''GnR were bad boys, that's for sure.''

It often strikes me how many rock stars are still going, considering the ways they must have abused themselves.

I recall Moby observing that life expectancy for music stars is far worse than for coal miners.

JEO

SeanT said:

Interessante.

The Germans may have fantastic taste in literature, but they are not always the supremely efficient technocrats and engineers we imagine. Some sobering reading for economic Teuto-philes: the calamity that is Berlin's "new" airport.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment

Within Germany, the East is famously more inefficient than the West.

Sean_F

EPG said:

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

Of course winning is not the most important thing.

If you offered them a guaranteed win under Tony Blair tomorrow, or the luck of the draw, which do you think they would take?

That's not on offer, though. Corbyn offers a guaranteed defeat, with fewer seats than they have now.

Plato

For Times readers - the letters about Corbyn are superb - Kim Howells is particularly amusing. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/letters/article4505575.ece

oxfordsimon

Sean_F said:

EPG said:

antifrank said:

Evidently there are a lot of Labour supporters who don't think that winning in 2020 is the most important thing.

That, or a lot of current Jeremy Corbyn supporters might well change their minds as to their preferred choice of leader.

Of course winning is not the most important thing.

If you offered them a guaranteed win under Tony Blair tomorrow, or the luck of the draw, which do you think they would take?

That's not on offer, though. Corbyn offers a guaranteed defeat, with fewer seats than they have now.

Yes, but they would have their party back. It would be pure. It would be Real Labour.

MTimT

taffys said:

''GnR were bad boys, that's for sure.''

It often strikes me how many rock stars are still going, considering the ways they must have abused themselves.

On the other hand, think of how many died young, and compare that to the populace at large. For every Keith Richards and Axl Rose, there's a Kurt Kobain or Brian Jones.

Sandpit

SeanT said:

Interessante.

The Germans may have fantastic taste in literature, but they are not always the supremely efficient technocrats and engineers we imagine. Some sobering reading for economic Teuto-philes: the calamity that is Berlin's "new" airport.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment

Wow, very un-German. Don't they have a word for taking delight at the misfortune of those messing up something at which they are supposed to be good?

DaemonBarber

taffys said:

''GnR were bad boys, that's for sure.''

It often strikes me how many rock stars are still going, considering the ways they must have abused themselves.

how is Lemmy still alive?

Tissue_Price

TheScreamingEagles said:

DaemonBarber said:

Roger said:

David L has it about right. Blair yesterday was a reminder that someone with charisma and an ability to argue a case is worth any amount of ideological purity. The man is quite simply a class above the 4 labour nobodies or Cameron or Osborne or Farron. What a depressing time to be interested in politics. I'm in a cafe and they're playing November Rain. God even Axel Rose has more talent than any of this lot

Axl Rose is an enormous knob-end
But he is/was phenomenally talented.
Just listen to Appetite for Destruction. Still relevant and still rocks almost 30 years after it was released (1987)

Axl Rose is also one of the greatest anagrams in history

We used to call our quiz team Axl Sane on occasion.

SouthamObserver

There is a big difference between supporters and members. Labour had over nine millions supporters in May. My guess is that the vast majority of them would like to see Labour mount a serious, credible challenge to the Tories. The members might want to consider that.

taffys

I recall Moby observing that life expectancy for music stars is far worse than for coal miners.

I stand corrected. Is there data on this then?

MTimT

taffys said:

I recall Moby observing that life expectancy for music stars is far worse than for coal miners.

I stand corrected. Is there data on this then?

Ask and you shall receive.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/shorter-stairway-to-heaven-rock-stars-die-young-study-finds/?_r=0

taffys

Ask and you shall receive.

Why I love PB in a nutshell