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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov poll finds Corbyn beating Burnham

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  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if it's possible to imagine a worse set of circumstances for Labour.

    Iraq enquiry published tomorrow?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Newsnight and Sky papers review now picking up this poll
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    HYUFD said:

    If Corbyn does win there must be an outside chance of UKIP taking second place in the polls in the run-up to and following EU ref

    There's this assumption that every country needs a right-wing party and a left-wing party as the big two, but countries like Ireland shows that is not necessarily the case.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Looks like Dan Jarvis will be leading Labour into the 2020 election if this poll is right.

    I think would be a good bet, at least a bet on not Corbyn leading Labour in 2020 (in Corbyn does win).

    There is no chance at all he will last until 2020. It will be a blast while he is in charge though. I'd give him a year tops. Maybe Tyson is right - Labour needs to make Corbyn leader before it comes to its senses.

    I can't believe Labour actually needs to experiment with a Corbyn leadership to come to its senses. Is everyone voting completely stupid, or something? Ralph Miliband was right, Labour will always let down the working classes in the end.

    Labour is all there is. Either it comes to its senses or something emerges to replace it. The more I think about it the more a Corbyn leadership is the catalyst for a major and necessary shake-up.

    It would be a good result if a Corbyn led Labour Party was the catalyst for the new moderate left of centre party we have spoken about in the past. Can't see it happening though (who is going to start it?) and Labour can't reform all the while it is beholden to the unions. So that major and necessary shake up might be a few years off yet.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if it's possible to imagine a worse set of circumstances for Labour.

    Iraq enquiry published tomorrow?
    That would result in a bigger boost for Corbyn.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    As much as this seems to defy national electoral politics (rather than Labour internal politics) we should bear in mind Labour's last two leaders.

    One was anointed despite showing clear signs of being a net vote loser, one was elected despite showing signs of being a net vote loser. These things can happen.

    There will be a mass assault on Corbyn's candidacy soon. If you think the Labour party will think electoral politics (or perhaps just plain decent sense) first when it comes to casting the vote then you have a straightforward betting market by taking Corbyn out.

    What is curious is the apparent decline of the broadly Blairite wing of the party represented by Kendall. Bearing in mind David Miliband was just pipped last time around is there an actual decline in that wing of Labour or is Kendall simply not the name to carry it?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    What this really shows is that a majority Tory government makes Labour Party members know their place.

    It's like a political Stockholm syndrome.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @abelardinelli: Polls are polls, but damage to Labour already being done. MPs who should have known better much to blame. As I said: https://t.co/ZQa6u7dduF
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,512

    I stick by my position from the previous night: Corbyn as LOTO might prove more of a handful for the Conservatives than anyone expects.

    I agree with that. That's why he might stay a while.

    Btw, what's with the paramilitary profile pic?!
    That's me outside my house on a cold winter's day. Balaclava's are great when out walking in the cold. They keep your mouth warm, and if you eat a bacon butty you can taste it for the rest of the day.

    I once walked the Peddar's Way through Norfolk in November, wild camping. Early one morning I reached a small shop in a village near Hunstanton, where an old lady warily served me in my balaclava. As I went to pay, my tub of vaseline flew out my pocket and onto the counter.

    Fortunately they took it well. Or perhaps they were humouring me. ;)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    notme said:

    Mortimer said:

    Blair is toxic, I wish he'd stay out of. May as well tune out of politics for the foreseeable future, if Labour are going to make themselves a laughing stock. We'll literally have no effective opposition.

    Indeed, Without him Labour could have remained pure and untainted by governing.
    *rolleyes*

    I mean toxic in relation to leadership election. Then again, Blair post 2003 isn't a liked leader in the country as whole in general. Not that you'd know, the way *some* Tories talking about him....
    He could have beaten Cameron.
    I don't actually think he could have. After Iraq, I think public opinion of him fell markedly, and it was only really the Tories putting up a candidate that wasn't a viable PM (Howard) that meant he got a third term. Given that the public clearly sees Cameron as a viable PM, and they don't have the trust issues associated with Blair, I think Cameron would win against him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    John Mcternan on Newsnight 'These figures disastrous for Labour, there has to be an ABC (Anyone but Corbyn) candidate'
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Tim_B said:

    Just stuck this tweet into the thread header

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/623606024512122880

    what on earth does "in touch with the concerns of ordinary people" mean?
    It's exactly what they are meant to do? To be fair - bad that I keep repeating this phrase about the self-harming UK Labour Party, eh? - it is what people told them to do right after the election.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited July 2015
    The 20-year era of the political androids, begun with Blair, is drawing to a close...

    The forthcoming epoch of the beardie-weardie codgers in sandals looks bright!

    Vote HUM∀AN
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    John McTernan almost suicidal on Newsnight
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Just stuck this tweet into the thread header

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/623606024512122880

    what on earth does "in touch with the concerns of ordinary people" mean?
    Looking and sounding like a typical next door neighbour in a middle class neighbourhood.
    Corbyn is much closer to that than the other 3 who look and sound robotic, if they speak at all.
    Your typical next door neighbour in a middle class neighbourhood wants to improve his lot in life, earn more money, provide for his family and build a financial safety net.

    Labour seems to be against all that.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Danny565 said:

    There is no way they could oust Corbyn immediately after getting elected. It would be paving the way for a new Podemos-style breakaway party.

    Maybe that's the best thing. Then they can really see how popular a Corbyn agenda is in Britain.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Speedy said:

    Moses_ said:

    Jonathan said:

    Wondering if it's possible to imagine a worse set of circumstances for Labour.

    Iraq enquiry published tomorrow?
    That would result in a bigger boost for Corbyn.
    Quite.... My very point.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    @Casino_Royale I doubt those voting for Corbyn are thinking along those lines. People who want to 'get their party back' so to speak.

    @SouthamObserver What kind of shake-up do think a Corbyn leadership will result in?

    My hope - probably folorn - is that losing to Corbyn will consign the last of the 97-10 deadwood to the further reaches of obscurity; while at the same time it will quickly dawn on the membership that tacking left is not going to cut it. That may allow a new generation, under someone like Jarvis, to emerge a fair while before 2020. If not, I guess I'll join millions of others in leaving Labour behind forever. Lucky LibDems!!

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    Danny565 said:

    There is no way they could oust Corbyn immediately after getting elected. It would be paving the way for a new Podemos-style breakaway party.

    Maybe that's the best thing. Then they can really see how popular a Corbyn agenda is in Britain.
    I think it would be popular. But, not popular enough to win.



  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Given the likely non-transferable votes by people who don't understand AV, Corbyn might only need 45% of first prefs to secure victory, perhaps less...
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    By the time this Labour leadership is decided the only thing remotely left on the centre ground will be tumbleweed.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited July 2015
    @Andy_Cooke
    I am taking issue with your claim that the change is retrospective. It is not. A true retrospective change would be in year X to increase the fees that had been charged in years X-1, X-2, and X-3. As far as I can understand, this is simply a change to the terms on which the student must repay the agreed sum. It may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it is not retrospective. The comparison with tax law is inexact, but the comparison with a bilateral contract for debt doesn't work either, since a student does not owe a debt in the ordinary sense of the term; his obligations are regulated principally by public, not private law.

    Let us, however, assume that the comparison with an ordinary contract for debt is apt. Consider the following two examples. (1) Parliament in 2000 chooses to declare void all future and subsisting terms of contracts of a particular character. (2) Parliament in 2000 declares that such terms were void as of 1 January 1990. The second change is genuinely retrospective. The first simply alters existing rights with prospective effect. An individual may plan his affairs on the basis that the general law governing the validity of contracts will stay the same, but he must always be prepared to accept that that that law may change.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    @Casino_Royale I doubt those voting for Corbyn are thinking along those lines. People who want to 'get their party back' so to speak.

    @SouthamObserver What kind of shake-up do think a Corbyn leadership will result in?

    My hope - probably folorn - is that losing to Corbyn will consign the last of the 97-10 deadwood to the further reaches of obscurity; while at the same time it will quickly dawn on the membership that tacking left is not going to cut it. That may allow a new generation, under someone like Jarvis, to emerge a fair while before 2020. If not, I guess I'll join millions of others in leaving Labour behind forever. Lucky LibDems!!

    The Lib Dems? Farron is far to into God for me. I may as well spoil my ballots in future elections....
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    Y0kel said:

    As much as this seems to defy national electoral politics (rather than Labour internal politics) we should bear in mind Labour's last two leaders.

    One was anointed despite showing clear signs of being a net vote loser, one was elected despite showing signs of being a net vote loser. These things can happen.

    There will be a mass assault on Corbyn's candidacy soon. If you think the Labour party will think electoral politics (or perhaps just plain decent sense) first when it comes to casting the vote then you have a straightforward betting market by taking Corbyn out.

    What is curious is the apparent decline of the broadly Blairite wing of the party represented by Kendall. Bearing in mind David Miliband was just pipped last time around is there an actual decline in that wing of Labour or is Kendall simply not the name to carry it?

    Blairism died in 2003.
    Since then it's been losing voters and MP's.

    Since 2001 the number of rightwing MP's elected on the Labour party platform has dropped significantly as Labour has lost more and more marginals. And since MP's in safe Labour seats are left wing, the fewer seats Labour wins the more left wing the remaining party becomes.

    That's how the Tory party ejected it's Heseltine wing during the 1997-2001 period, since the only thing that remained after 1997 was the core Thatcherite party, and how as the Tories gain more and more seats they become more liberal and less right wing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    Mike, whatever you do, don't take a holiday when labour announce their new leader.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Why are Labour still not listening to the sage advice of Dan Hodges? The man was proved right over Ed.

    No coincidence that this has all happened whilst the sage is on his holidays.

    The left is taking its revenge on Tony Blair - by electing Tom and Jerry.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    How long do we expect Corbyn to last if he does win?

    5 years unless he jumps. Labour doesn't dump leaders. Besides, I think he might prove superficially quite popular for a while. I could well see him keeping on board or winning back many of the oppositionist Lib Dems and Greens that Miliband lost late on. It might be a different kettle of fish once the election starts getting closer. That, of course, assumes that Labour can provide some sort of internal cohesion which would be very far from a given with all the people Corbyn would have leapfrogged over. The unions will be happy to see him stay though.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2015
    ... and over in "tim" land the nightmare that beckons for Labour has passed him by.. Too busy smearing ...

    https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/with_replies
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    So, let's get this straight: 43% of Labour members propose, as their first choice, choosing as their candidate for Prime Minister, with the ultimate control over our nuclear deterrent, Jeremy Corbyn, the well-known CND caampaigner? He who invited the IRA into parliament two weeks after the attack on Her Majesty's government which was almost successful and which left 5 dead and several more horrendously maimed and disabled? He who classes Hamas and Hizbollah amongst his friends, and supports the Argentine claim to the Falklands? That Jeremy Corbyn? Have I got the right one?

    If I have, and if he does become leader, then a split of the Labour Party is inevitable.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Danny565 said:

    There is no way they could oust Corbyn immediately after getting elected. It would be paving the way for a new Podemos-style breakaway party.

    Maybe that's the best thing. Then they can really see how popular a Corbyn agenda is in Britain.

    Yes, that is the dream scenario. But it won't happen.

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2015
    I'd be shocked if Corbyn lasted for five years. He has such a small base of MPs, and would struggle to form a coherent shadow cabinet.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    In fact, what's the odds someone will do a deal and withdraw, to try and stop Jezza?
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    Tim_B said:

    Speedy said:

    Tim_B said:

    Just stuck this tweet into the thread header

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/623606024512122880

    what on earth does "in touch with the concerns of ordinary people" mean?
    Looking and sounding like a typical next door neighbour in a middle class neighbourhood.
    Corbyn is much closer to that than the other 3 who look and sound robotic, if they speak at all.
    Your typical next door neighbour in a middle class neighbourhood wants to improve his lot in life, earn more money, provide for his family and build a financial safety net.

    Labour seems to be against all that.
    Try to explain that to the non-Corbyn candidates, they probably won't even speak, they will just smile and shrug you off.
    If you try to explain it to Corbyn you will probably get a torrent of thousands of words.

    Corbyn is like a political warrior, the other 3 so far look like empty suits, that's why Corbyn is ahead.
  • If Mr Corbyn does get it, I can see him spending 2-3 years changing the direction of the labour party and the setup of how members influence the direction of policy.

    Then once he has set a left wing agenda I can see the left of the party trying to get a centre left candidate in before the election that may be more appealing to the electorate / younger. So could be another Blairite / centre left battle in 2 years time.

    Or earlier of course if the blairites seek to remove him. But that will absolutely be the death knell of labour.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,039

    @Andy_Cooke
    I am taking issue with your claim that the change is retrospective. It is not. A true retrospective change would be in year X to increase the fees that had been charged in years X-1, X-2, and X-3. As far as I can understand, this is simply a change to the terms on which the student must repay the agreed sum. It may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it is not retrospective. The comparison with tax law is inexact, but the comparison with a bilateral contract for debt doesn't work either, since a student does not owe a debt in the ordinary sense of the term; his obligations are regulated principally by public, not private law.

    Let us, however, assume that the comparison with an ordinary contract for debt is apt. Consider the following two examples. (1) Parliament in 2000 chooses to declare void all future and subsisting terms of contracts of a particular character. (2) Parliament in 2000 declares that such terms were void as of 1 January 1990. The second change is genuinely retrospective. The first simply alters existing rights with prospective effect. An individual may plan his affairs on the basis that the general law governing the validity of contracts will stay the same, but he must always be prepared to accept that that that law may change.

    The obligations run up by the student were run up under condition A.
    Now that the repayment phase commences, he or she is told that actually the obligations are being treated under condition B.

    The total amount that will be paid has changed after the transaction was completed. The terms under which the transaction was entered were valid as of 2012; Parliament has decreed that the 2012 transaction be treated under different terms. The service has already been consumed; the price of it is being changed subsequent to its consumption.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    @Casino_Royale I doubt those voting for Corbyn are thinking along those lines. People who want to 'get their party back' so to speak.

    @SouthamObserver What kind of shake-up do think a Corbyn leadership will result in?

    My hope - probably folorn - is that losing to Corbyn will consign the last of the 97-10 deadwood to the further reaches of obscurity; while at the same time it will quickly dawn on the membership that tacking left is not going to cut it. That may allow a new generation, under someone like Jarvis, to emerge a fair while before 2020. If not, I guess I'll join millions of others in leaving Labour behind forever. Lucky LibDems!!

    With Corbyn there will be a pretty thorough purge, though many may walk before being purged. A whole new generation, and a lot of has-beens generating by-elections.

    May do well in Scotland too.

    And Christmas comes early for Farron!

  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    RodCrosby said:

    In fact, what's the odds someone will do a deal and withdraw, to try and stop Jezza?

    SNAP! :smiley:
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    They'd do a toss up of Yvette and Andy. That said, I can see one candidate dropping out after this.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    There are no Blairites left - just Kendall and a few others plus the grandees.

    Unite run the MPs now.

    Labour are finished .
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Labour's approach to its leadership election is the party political approach of taking to the bottle after losing your job, and then stumbling, pissed, to your ex-employer to scream abuse at them from outside the office building.

    After everyone's gone home.

    Bravo!
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited July 2015
    RodCrosby said:

    In fact, what's the odds someone will do a deal and withdraw, to try and stop Jezza?

    Does it matter?
    Corbyn might be on his way to take the majority of first preferences, thus winning on the first round.

    The other 3 are like empty suits, an endorsement of one empty suit to another won't do a thing, especially if the other 3 are collectively a minority.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,550
    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @janemerrick23: Even the Lib Dems are gloating. This is Def Con One https://t.co/O5t3fDDheQ
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The problem is Labour activists are completely out of touch with the rest of the country, outside a few enclaves in inner city areas.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    Very interesting program on C4 - at the same time pretty damning indictment of the worst of the benefit class (obviously really sad to see for everyone), but also revealing of those who don't want to be where they are, and willing to try and improve their lot.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Scott_P said:

    @janemerrick23: Even the Lib Dems are gloating. This is Def Con One https://t.co/O5t3fDDheQ

    Pretty much the only thing that could lead to a Liberal Democrat recovery in the short term is a Jeremy Corbyn leadership.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    I don't blame LDs for gloating. I'd gloat if I was an LD as well, given all the flack LDs have taken from Labour activists/members/MPs.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    JEO said:

    Scott_P said:

    @janemerrick23: Even the Lib Dems are gloating. This is Def Con One https://t.co/O5t3fDDheQ

    Pretty much the only thing that could lead to a Liberal Democrat recovery in the short term is a Jeremy Corbyn leadership.
    Unless Labour splits.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?

    None.
    The Blairites are a handful left, and whoever want's to get rid of Corbyn will stay in, to backstab him later and overthrow him.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    What fun to see Labour joining their erstwhile Lib Dem chums in a weird suicide pact...
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    So, if the 1982 Labour manifesto was the longest suicide note in history, would electing Corbyn be a point-blank head shot?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Speedy said:

    RodCrosby said:

    In fact, what's the odds someone will do a deal and withdraw, to try and stop Jezza?

    Does it matter?
    Corbyn might be on his way to take the majority of first preferences, thus winning on the first round.

    The other 3 are like empty suits, an endorsement of one empty suit to another won't do a thing, especially if the other 3 are collectively a minority.
    Who would withdraw? It's not going to be Liz that's for sure. Both the the other two have a once in a lifetime opportunity. No way.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    JEO said:

    Scott_P said:

    @janemerrick23: Even the Lib Dems are gloating. This is Def Con One https://t.co/O5t3fDDheQ

    Pretty much the only thing that could lead to a Liberal Democrat recovery in the short term is a Jeremy Corbyn leadership.
    Unless Labour splits.
    Too late - the vast majority of those who might split have been ousted as MPs.

    Unite have done a reverse take over with added poison pill.
  • rullkorullko Posts: 161

    How long do we expect Corbyn to last if he does win?

    Looks like Dan Jarvis will be leading Labour into the 2020 election if this poll is right.

    This is why I don't understand the "Tories for Corbyn" business (insofar as it's real - obviously a lot of them like Toby Young are just showing off to their Twitter mates). It's looking like the Labour establishment won't allow a Corbyn victory to stand. So if he does win, they might well replace him with someone more marketable than the other candidates, such as Jarvis. But if he doesn't win, then Labour are stuck with Burnham or Cooper.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    ... and over in "tim" land the nightmare that beckons for Labour has passed him by.. Too busy smearing ...

    https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/with_replies

    A man shouting into the wind.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    JEO said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Corbyn does win there must be an outside chance of UKIP taking second place in the polls in the run-up to and following EU ref

    There's this assumption that every country needs a right-wing party and a left-wing party as the big two, but countries like Ireland shows that is not necessarily the case.
    Ireland has SF and the Greens and Labour too, if left is split amongst several parties and main centre left party leader weak no reason a populist party cannot take second, France too is an example where FN and Le Pen runners up to centre right
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    When you think about recent Labour leaders , you think Blair.. won three elections despite illegal wars.. Then in comes completely bonkers Brown.. then they pick a lefty nutter in Ed, now it looks like they might pick Corbyn whom even Foot would despise.. Are they completely fffffing MAD ???
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    I do not know if Labour do not decapitate their leaders. Ed Miliband had a fair lead in polls after a reasonable two-year period, as did Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock. The problem is that the polls did not accurately reflect votes in any of these cases, and they kept believing each time that they did. In contrast, the polls said in 2003 that the Conservatives wouldn't win, and indeed they didn't.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 289
    @RodCrosby makes a good point. Even though this will be a very politically engaged electorate, a proportion will not use their preferences in a useful way, or at all.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    In other news ...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11754609/Is-this-the-end-of-National-Insurance.html

    George Osborne, the Chancellor, is considering historic plans to merge Income Tax with National Insurance
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    Or, Mandy could bide his time and await another leadership race in 2018, with Chukka or Tristram, Stella or Jarvis or other.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,657

    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?

    How about the conservatives
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    On another topic, that of which movies / TV shows are worth watching, I can report that "Vacuuming Completely Nude in Paradise" - a BBC TV movie, is absolutely awful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,008
    Speedy said:

    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?

    None.
    The Blairites are a handful left, and whoever want's to get rid of Corbyn will stay in, to backstab him later and overthrow him.
    No point now leftwing Farron in charge, the LDs voted against the welfare bill with Labour rebels, Blairites more likely to defect to Tories under Cameron and Osborne
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547

    How long do we expect Corbyn to last if he does win?

    5 years unless he jumps. Labour doesn't dump leaders. Besides, I think he might prove superficially quite popular for a while. I could well see him keeping on board or winning back many of the oppositionist Lib Dems and Greens that Miliband lost late on. It might be a different kettle of fish once the election starts getting closer. That, of course, assumes that Labour can provide some sort of internal cohesion which would be very far from a given with all the people Corbyn would have leapfrogged over. The unions will be happy to see him stay though.
    Yes. Even under Corbyn, Labour may do well enough in polls and local elections, until the next General Election approaches.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Meanwhile...

    @davidtorrance: Nicola Sturgeon: Decision over third Heathrow runway will be decided by SNP vote http://t.co/7zKra3YwtH
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Well the only thing positive for Labour with a Corbyn leadership is that they might take Scotland back from the SNP, the overlap of Corbyn and the SNP's policies is almost 100%.

    As for the rest of the country, time will tell.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    When you think about recent Labour leaders , you think Blair.. won three elections despite illegal wars.. Then in comes completely bonkers Brown.. then they pick a lefty nutter in Ed, now it looks like they might pick Corbyn whom even Foot would despise.. Are they completely fffffing MAD ???

    To be fair, most labour people picked David M, the unions swung it by some pretty dodgy tactics.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2015
    TGOHF said:

    In other news ...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11754609/Is-this-the-end-of-National-Insurance.html

    George Osborne, the Chancellor, is considering historic plans to merge Income Tax with National Insurance

    So my letter got to him.. I suggested it in 2010/. you could do away with thousands of pen pushers . Why not pay benefits based on the TAX you have paid.. All the sloth claimants would find themselves without a bean...
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Sean_F said:

    ... and over in "tim" land the nightmare that beckons for Labour has passed him by.. Too busy smearing ...

    https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/with_replies

    A man shouting into the wind.
    Shocked by how few followers, retweets and faves he has. But then, looking at the substance of his output, he isn't putting much out there that would encourage folk to pay attention.

    Agree or disagree with his politics, he has a top-class political mind, and could easily have cut a living as a political correspondent, risk analyst or strategist. What a waste.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    rullko said:

    How long do we expect Corbyn to last if he does win?

    Looks like Dan Jarvis will be leading Labour into the 2020 election if this poll is right.

    This is why I don't understand the "Tories for Corbyn" business (insofar as it's real - obviously a lot of them like Toby Young are just showing off to their Twitter mates). It's looking like the Labour establishment won't allow a Corbyn victory to stand. So if he does win, they might well replace him with someone more marketable than the other candidates, such as Jarvis. But if he doesn't win, then Labour are stuck with Burnham or Cooper.
    But the damage may have been done by then.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Speedy said:

    Well the only thing positive for Labour with a Corbyn leadership is that they might take Scotland back from the SNP, the overlap of Corbyn and the SNP's policies is almost 100%.

    As for the rest of the country, time will tell.

    Nope - Scotland is about identity not policy. A bearded London lefty is not going to win vote backs from the SNP.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?

    None.
    The Blairites are a handful left, and whoever want's to get rid of Corbyn will stay in, to backstab him later and overthrow him.
    No point now leftwing Farron in charge, the LDs voted against the welfare bill with Labour rebels, Blairites more likely to defect to Tories under Cameron and Osborne
    They won't win their seats in the by-elections that follow MP defections you know.
    You forgotten the "Carswell Rule".
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    edited July 2015

    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    They'd do a toss up of Yvette and Andy. That said, I can see one candidate dropping out after this.
    (EDIT) I'm just glad that Philip Gould isn't around to see this, after all the hard work that he did to make Labour electable in the 1990s. :unamused:
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Speedy said:

    What are the odds for the first Labour MP to defect to the LibDems?

    None.
    The Blairites are a handful left, and whoever want's to get rid of Corbyn will stay in, to backstab him later and overthrow him.
    No point now leftwing Farron in charge, the LDs voted against the welfare bill with Labour rebels, Blairites more likely to defect to Tories under Cameron and Osborne
    They won't win their seats in the by-elections that follow MP defections you know.
    You forgotten the "Carswell Rule".
    There used to be a rule, that when someone was first appointed to the cabinet, they had to resign their seat and fight a by-election.

    I suspect the Carswell rule will last as long as it is politically expedient.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    RodCrosby said:

    Given the likely non-transferable votes by people who don't understand AV, Corbyn might only need 45% of first prefs to secure victory, perhaps less...

    I suspect he'd still need transfers, though taken together with the non-transferables, he'd be a shoo-in on 45%. Assuming something like a 25/20/10 split for the others, it'd take a third of the Kendall / Cooper votes to be non-transferable for Corbyn to be over the line on first preferences alone, and I suspect that's a little too high, but only a little.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,547
    Tim_B said:

    So, if the 1982 Labour manifesto was the longest suicide note in history, would electing Corbyn be a point-blank head shot?

    There's something admirable about a party that's prepared to say "F*ck you!" to the voters.
  • Chris123Chris123 Posts: 174
    edited July 2015
    I expect some more mainstream Labour voters to begin coalescing around the best placed alternative candidate to Corbyn. Anyone But Corbyn = Andy Burnham Campaign. Cooper and Kendall are out of the running... The real choice is Burnham or Corbyn.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    rullko said:

    How long do we expect Corbyn to last if he does win?

    Looks like Dan Jarvis will be leading Labour into the 2020 election if this poll is right.

    This is why I don't understand the "Tories for Corbyn" business (insofar as it's real - obviously a lot of them like Toby Young are just showing off to their Twitter mates). It's looking like the Labour establishment won't allow a Corbyn victory to stand. So if he does win, they might well replace him with someone more marketable than the other candidates, such as Jarvis. But if he doesn't win, then Labour are stuck with Burnham or Cooper.
    How do they 'just replace him'? Possibly if the whole of the front bench refuse to serve it might make his position untenable but it'd also look like incredible sour grapes.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    Well the only thing positive for Labour with a Corbyn leadership is that they might take Scotland back from the SNP, the overlap of Corbyn and the SNP's policies is almost 100%.

    As for the rest of the country, time will tell.

    Nope - Scotland is about identity not policy. A bearded London lefty is not going to win vote backs from the SNP.

    I doubt that, the big problem in scotland is that the middle of the road is to the left of what it is in E&W.
    Labour were swept away in scotland because they were perceived as not left wing enough and not caring about their voters.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BethRigby: Yvette campaign on times poll. Labour cant win by "shifting a narrow party further to the left or by returning to dismal days of 1980s"
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    edited July 2015

    I don't blame LDs for gloating. I'd gloat if I was an LD as well, given all the flack LDs have taken from Labour activists/members/MPs.

    It was pretty much unrelenting. They paraded their moral superiority about not being in a coalition government with the Conservatives.

    Then they abstained on social welfare. You would despair for them.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    They'd do a toss up of Yvette and Andy. That said, I can see one candidate dropping out after this.
    (EDIT) I'm just glad that Philip Gould isn't around to see this, after all the hard work that he did to make Labour electable in the 1990s. :unamused:
    :(
    I can't believe I (again) misjudged the Labour party. Back in 2010, I really thought they wouldn't elect Ed Miliband....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Agree or disagree with his politics, he has a top-class political mind, and could easily have cut a living as a political correspondent, risk analyst or strategist. What a waste.

    George Osborne lost the election by eating a burger. Or crying at a funeral. Or getting on a boat, out of a car, on a train.

    Top-class.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Scott_P said:

    @BethRigby: Yvette campaign on times poll. Labour cant win by "shifting a narrow party further to the left or by returning to dismal days of 1980s"

    This is an opportunity for Yvette: if she tacks slightly right, as the sane unifying figure who's actually vaguely electable and who isn't an obvious loser like Andy B, she could garner support from a wide spectrum of the party.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,956
    Sean_F said:

    Tim_B said:

    So, if the 1982 Labour manifesto was the longest suicide note in history, would electing Corbyn be a point-blank head shot?

    There's something admirable about a party that's prepared to say "F*ck you!" to the voters.
    Maybe so, but Labour shouldn't be surprised if they get a mouthful back.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    They'd do a toss up of Yvette and Andy. That said, I can see one candidate dropping out after this.
    (EDIT) I'm just glad that Philip Gould isn't around to see this, after all the hard work that he did to make Labour electable in the 1990s. :unamused:
    :(
    I can't believe I (again) misjudged the Labour party. Back in 2010, I really thought they wouldn't elect Ed Miliband....
    Leadership elections are simply selecting the least worst option.
    If Labour voters think the least worst option is Corbyn then it says volumes about how low they perceive the other 3 candidates.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    What does this say about Hattie's stewardship of the party now?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    Peter Mandelson needs to take Andy, Yvette and Liz to a nice restaurant where they can decide which one of them stands as the "Stop Corbyn" candidate and which two drop out. A kind of "Granita mark 2" event.

    They'd do a toss up of Yvette and Andy. That said, I can see one candidate dropping out after this.
    (EDIT) I'm just glad that Philip Gould isn't around to see this, after all the hard work that he did to make Labour electable in the 1990s. :unamused:
    :(
    I can't believe I (again) misjudged the Labour party. Back in 2010, I really thought they wouldn't elect Ed Miliband....
    A lot of people would say Ed M is Ayn Rand compared to Jezza.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BethRigby: One senior Tory said of the Times' poll: "It's a corbasm" for Conservative leadership
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Sean_F said:

    Tim_B said:

    So, if the 1982 Labour manifesto was the longest suicide note in history, would electing Corbyn be a point-blank head shot?

    There's something admirable about a party that's prepared to say "F*ck you!" to the voters.
    It certainly beats "we didn't explain our policies well enough".
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    Scott_P said:

    What does this say about Hattie's stewardship of the party now?

    Perhaps deep-cover agent Harriet has overdone it a bit? I mean, I know her mission was to destroy the Labour Party, but even so...
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Scott_P said:

    What does this say about Hattie's stewardship of the party now?

    "A what?"
    Luckily she's Labour temp. leader for only a few months, imagine the carnage if she was Labour leader for years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Agree or disagree with his politics, he has a top-class political mind, and could easily have cut a living as a political correspondent, risk analyst or strategist. What a waste.

    George Osborne lost the election by eating a burger. Or crying at a funeral. Or getting on a boat, out of a car, on a train.

    Top-class.
    The poster who thought a millionaire was avoiding tax by dying ? Top class.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Kensington CLP has nominated Corbyn apparently.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    'Anyone but Kendall' now for me:

    Cooper +6.3
    Corbyn +5.5
    Burnham +4.9
    Kendall -2.2
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Scott_P said:

    @BethRigby: Yvette campaign on times poll. Labour cant win by "shifting a narrow party further to the left or by returning to dismal days of 1980s"

    This is an opportunity for Yvette: if she tacks slightly right, as the sane unifying figure who's actually vaguely electable and who isn't an obvious loser like Andy B, she could garner support from a wide spectrum of the party.
    I think the days of a Labour "wide spectrum" are proved to be over..
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    EPG said:

    I don't blame LDs for gloating. I'd gloat if I was an LD as well, given all the flack LDs have taken from Labour activists/members/MPs.

    It was pretty much unrelenting. They paraded their moral superiority about not being in a coalition government with the Conservatives.

    Then they abstained on social welfare. You would despair for them.
    I didn't know you were an LD. I personally, didn't begrudge the LDs for entering coalition - I thought it was the right decision, all things considered.

    Labour are embarrassing right now. I'm wondering whether I'll even pay the £3 to vote for in the leadership election, at this stage.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Last comment for tonight:

    If Corbyn wins, then that proves that the other 3 candidates were so rubbish that they couldn't even beat him, much less the Tories.

    Goodnight.
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