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  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    I think CLP (going by last time) is somewhat of an indicative of how members vote: that said going by last time it is not an exact indicative, which is how the CLP nominations are being treated.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each.
    #Corbygasm

    When this election started Corbyn looked to be smarter than Foot. Now he looks even more stupid! The Labour Party (well frankly all political parties these days) need to take note of the underlying culture of the nation as developed by Ch4 - you keep the thickest stupidest person (the one you dislike most and want to see make ever bigger fools of themselves) in the Big Brother House for as long as possible, all so you can have a good laugh at their expense.
    The real hashtag for Corbyn is #greendonkeyjacket
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    kle4 said:

    So presumably in the event of a Corbyn victory, the Labour party dies (according to Tories), who becomes the official opposition? Genuinely interested, as despite the fact Labour have no chance winning with Corbyn, I doubt the actual party would 'die'.

    Even 'dead' the party would get some opposition done, just as the Tories did in the dark days, they'd just be much more irrelevant and reliant on the Tories messing up and getting unlucky in events. As it is, they're merely panicking too much after spending 5 years not panicking enough (though people like me agreed with them not needing to panic, though I at least conceded they did not need to risk complacency)
    Tbh the only panicking I've seen is this poll, and at the CLP nominations from people in the Labour party. I'd love to see Dan Hodges timeline....
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    I think CLP (going by last time) is somewhat of an indicative of how members vote: that said going by last time it is not an exact indicative, which is how the CLP nominations are being treated.
    True, but bear in mind this is AV. I'm hoping sense will prevail and Corbyn will not be leader. I think if that happens there's a reasonable chance of a breakaway party and a rerun of the 80s.
    That would be very bad for Britain. We need a relevant opposition.

    That said, I am now already turning my energies to campaign for PR within the Labour Party. FPTP is bankrupt in a multi-party state. I've always been an opponent of FPTP. Current events only serve to light that fire further.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    edited July 2015
    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Monty said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    I think CLP (going by last time) is somewhat of an indicative of how members vote: that said going by last time it is not an exact indicative, which is how the CLP nominations are being treated.
    True, but bear in mind this is AV. I'm hoping sense will prevail and Corbyn will not be leader. I think if that happens there's a reasonable chance of a breakaway party and a rerun of the 80s.
    That would be very bad for Britain. We need a relevant opposition.

    That said, I am now already turning my energies to campaign for PR within the Labour Party. FPTP is bankrupt in a multi-party state. I've always been an opponent of FPTP. Current events only serve to light that fire further.
    Given if we take CLP nominations as reflective of votes, it would appear that Burnham/Corbyn are pretty much tied. Corbyn voters second preferences will most likely be for Burnham I'm thinking it's probably likely that Burnham will win the leadership. I had hope for Yvette, and I thought she would win yesterday but tbh, it appears this is unlikely.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    228 Nai 64 Oxi on Greek vote, so Tsipras faced a significant Syriza rebellion but got the bailout through with oppsition party support
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    JEO said:

    Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

    What's ridiculous is the view the EU took in the Greek negotiations:

    "I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."

    So agreements, even those made by different governments, must always be stuck to by member states, but the EU can chuck them out with impunity.
    While I took a harsh view toward Greece and their various claims about democracy and how that meant they should get a better deal and so on, I have to admit I recall thinking years ago in response to I believe a German official comment along those lines, that it was nonsense. Of course a new government can ignore or rip a commitment made by a previous government. They would no doubt face some major consequences if they did, it might be really unwise, but they absolutely could if they wanted to.
    And, of course, Junker has made the argument that a political agreement has no legal force
    And equally of course no one - on either side of this Greek shambles - is willing to admit to the mistakes they made at the outset of it all when Greece was allowed in/joined the Euro.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    edited July 2015

    Monty said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    I think CLP (going by last time) is somewhat of an indicative of how members vote: that said going by last time it is not an exact indicative, which is how the CLP nominations are being treated.
    True, but bear in mind this is AV. I'm hoping sense will prevail and Corbyn will not be leader. I think if that happens there's a reasonable chance of a breakaway party and a rerun of the 80s.
    That would be very bad for Britain. We need a relevant opposition.

    That said, I am now already turning my energies to campaign for PR within the Labour Party. FPTP is bankrupt in a multi-party state. I've always been an opponent of FPTP. Current events only serve to light that fire further.
    Given if we take CLP nominations as reflective of votes, it would appear that Burnham/Corbyn are pretty much tied. Corbyn voters second preferences will most likely be for Burnham I'm thinking it's probably likely that Burnham will win the leadership. I had hope for Yvette, and I thought she would win yesterday but tbh, it appears this is unlikely.
    If it is a Burnham v Corbyn race neither's preferences will come into play. Burnham will have to rely on Cooper and Kendall's preferences to beat JC!
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346
    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,161
    edited July 2015
    HYUFD said:

    228 Nai 64 Oxi on Greek vote, so Tsipras faced a significant Syriza rebellion but got the bailout through with oppsition party support

    Nai we can!

    (transliterated into Latin script, Oxi is actually Ohi or Okhi)
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Seems like countries where people have to work hard for what they've got don't mind literally putting up a fence to stop migrants lowering their standard of living

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/621455742562865152
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
    I doubt the Tories will be in power for twenty-five years, but I'd at least have hoped they could cut the Tories majority. Seems like Labour party members want to live in a cuckoo land, and there is no helping them. It's sad, because millions will be affected by this government's decisions, and they'll let them all down because of their idiocy.
  • MontyMonty Posts: 346

    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
    I doubt the Tories will be in power for twenty-five years, but I'd at least have hoped they could cut the Tories majority. Seems like Labour party members want to live in a cuckoo land, and there is no helping them. It's sad, because millions will be affected by this government's decisions, and they'll let them all down because of their idiocy.
    Agree completely. I hope that won't happen, but if the last few months are a guideline I expect it will. I hope the more cerebral Tories will see that as a very bad thing too. This country needs a coherent opposition, now and in the future whatever the colour of the government.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    isam said:

    Seems like countries where people have to work hard for what they've got don't mind literally putting up a fence to stop migrants lowering their standard of living
    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/621455742562865152

    What a bozo you are.
    We have the ocean to stop illegal immigrants.
    As the WSJ headline says - ''Hungary Takes Steps to Restrict Illegal Immigration''
    llegal.
    It is in fact allegedly reneging on its Schengen obligations - to which we are not (thats NOT) a member.
    ''...from June 23 it was suspending indefinitely the acceptance of asylum seekers who had been registered entering the EU in Hungary, but had moved on to other European states and were being sent back to Hungary for processing.
    Hungarian officials have said that many of the asylum seekers first entered Europe’s border-free Schengen zone in Greece but aren’t being registered there.''

    Note -- 'first entered Europe’s border-free Schengen zone in Greece but aren’t being registered there'. Greece.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2015
    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
    I don't buy this "Labour are out of power for a generation" hyperbole. Even if you are a pessimist, there is still a chance of "events" - it's hardly as if the Tories have a 100+ majority.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up.
    They don't need a majority.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003
    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
    Provided Corbyn does not win I could see 1 of the other 3 having a chance v Osborne in 2020, after 10 years in power all parties are vulnerable. A strong performance by Corbyn could also give the party a slight boost in Scotland
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003

    HYUFD said:

    228 Nai 64 Oxi on Greek vote, so Tsipras faced a significant Syriza rebellion but got the bailout through with oppsition party support

    Nai we can!

    (transliterated into Latin script, Oxi is actually Ohi or Okhi)
    For a few months at least (and thanks for the Latin)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,571



    He has his supporters. Students and young'uns seem to love him, as do recent joiners to the party.

    He'd certainly bring the defectors to the Greens back and there's a lot of youthful enthusiasm (it reminds me of the Benn deputy leadership insurgency). The number of new members is very striking now - membership is up around 25% since the election - though they aren't all left-wing by any means.

    So far, all the contenders are being careful not to burn bridges. Corbyn's CLP victory speech tonight was notably non-triumphalist - the general flavour was "whether we win or not we will have shown real enthusiasm for a clear alternative", which is fair enough. Labour can't win with a pure left message, but we also can't win without an idealistic element - it's always been a question of balance.

  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651

    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up.
    They don't need a majority.
    Quite.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651



    He has his supporters. Students and young'uns seem to love him, as do recent joiners to the party.

    He'd certainly bring the defectors to the Greens back and there's a lot of youthful enthusiasm (it reminds me of the Benn deputy leadership insurgency). The number of new members is very striking now - membership is up around 25% since the election - though they aren't all left-wing by any means.

    So far, all the contenders are being careful not to burn bridges. Corbyn's CLP victory speech tonight was notably non-triumphalist - the general flavour was "whether we win or not we will have shown real enthusiasm for a clear alternative", which is fair enough. Labour can't win with a pure left message, but we also can't win without an idealistic element - it's always been a question of balance.

    Thanks for that, Nick. Do you feel there is a disconnect between the party "out in the wild" and on the green benches? The Labour left seems significantly less prominent in parliament than in the wider party, but I'm not sure how much of that stems from how the bulk of the party membership at large are not so active and engaged. I imagine there are a lot of "quiet centrists".
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    HYUFD said:



    Provided Corbyn does not win I could see 1 of the other 3 having a chance v Osborne in 2020, after 10 years in power all parties are vulnerable. A strong performance by Corbyn could also give the party a slight boost in Scotland

    There seems to be deal of complacency, or lack of imagination(?) about among govt supporters (I don't know if you are among their number HYUFD. How certain are you that that conservative govt with a majority of 12 (which only operates with a fair wind) can last until 2020 with a disruptive referendum in the middle of it, and "events" likely from europe and elsewhere.

    I'm not convinced the owd neo-liberal consensus has won irreversibly. insurgent parties are on the rise everywhere. an insurgent Corbyn old labour party might fit the bill. At least, I don't think it is anywhere near as settled as many would like to think
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    What the hell is Whittingdale thinking of ? Supporting the BBC by general levy regardless of if you watch TV of not. Seems to be going completely in the opposite direction of what the public is calling for.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/bbc/11742553/BBC-licence-fee-could-be-means-tested-under-Government-charter-renewal-plans.html

    Hopefully he will take a stronger view on the idiotic report yesterday saying that license fee non-payment should remain a criminal offence. Quite why the license fee is special when you end up in a civil proceeding for failure to pay just about anything else I don't know!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11742624/EMU-brutality-in-Greece-has-destroyed-the-trust-of-Europes-Left.html
    All Souls economist Kevin O'Rourke says the next Left-wing party that rises to challenge the EMU will not be as "feckless" as Mr Tsipras, and will not bargain from a position of such abject weakness.

    "The lesson that they will draw from this debacle is: negotiating with Germany is a waste of time; be willing to act unilaterally, be willing to default unilaterally, have a plan for achieving a primary surplus if you haven’t already achieved it, have a hard default and euro exit option in your back pocket, and be willing to use it at the first sign of hassle from the ECB," he said.
    Interesting times.
  • handandmousehandandmouse Posts: 213
    Not sure if this has been posted yet. If it has, I've missed it. Yanis Varoufakis' annotated version of the Euro-summit statement on Greece:

    http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/15/the-euro-summit-agreement-on-greece-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Not sure if this has been posted yet. If it has, I've missed it. Yanis Varoufakis' annotated version of the Euro-summit statement on Greece:

    http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/15/the-euro-summit-agreement-on-greece-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/

    I notice he is referring to the agreement as being the Carthaginian Peace.

    ...does Yanis read PB...?
  • Eh_ehm_a_ehEh_ehm_a_eh Posts: 552
    isam said:

    Seems like countries where people have to work hard for what they've got don't mind literally putting up a fence to stop migrants lowering their standard of living

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/621455742562865152

    Wish those johnnie foreigners would make their mind up. They pulled down walls and fences not htat long ago.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2015

    Monty said:

    HYUFD said:

    Monty said:

    Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
    I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

    As Apocalypse points out CLPs were not that far off in 2010 and regardless of your CLP, CLPs as a whole are showing a Corbyn-Burnham race. In London Corbyn seems to be doing best, Burnham worst
    The next leader is a caretaker anyway seeing as it is extremely unlikely that Labour can win a majority next time. The maths don't stack up. Corbyn would be a disaster. Burnham would be marginally better than Ed, but no more. Labour will be out of power for at least 15 years whoever wins. I suspect the game has changed and we are in for a long period of Conservative govt. 20 or 25 years would not surprise me at this point. The Labour Party hasn't realised that the ground has shifted beneath them and it shows no signs of realising that either.

    The Tories are not loved either. They've realised how FPTP can be used to maximum advantage when your opponents are split and they are capitalising on it like never before.

    All in all it is a recipe for a fallow period of democracy and political engagement with all the social tensions that that implies.
    I don't buy this "Labour are out of power for a generation" hyperbole. Even if you are a pessimist, there is still a chance of "events" - it's hardly as if the Tories have a 100+ majority.
    Definitely. That some in labour are worried at the possibility now is understandable given what just happened, as is some Tory confidence, but things are not do, heh, set in stone that they should be certain. That is the element of panic that is going round.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,003

    HYUFD said:



    Provided Corbyn does not win I could see 1 of the other 3 having a chance v Osborne in 2020, after 10 years in power all parties are vulnerable. A strong performance by Corbyn could also give the party a slight boost in Scotland

    There seems to be deal of complacency, or lack of imagination(?) about among govt supporters (I don't know if you are among their number HYUFD. How certain are you that that conservative govt with a majority of 12 (which only operates with a fair wind) can last until 2020 with a disruptive referendum in the middle of it, and "events" likely from europe and elsewhere.

    I'm not convinced the owd neo-liberal consensus has won irreversibly. insurgent parties are on the rise everywhere. an insurgent Corbyn old labour party might fit the bill. At least, I don't think it is anywhere near as settled as many would like to think
    The Tories may only have a majority of 12, but they have a majority of 100 over Labour. While voters may not want pure neo liberalism there is certainly no evidence they want socialism either
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