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Telegraph providing step by step guide on how to vote for Corbyn in order to help "doom" LAB.
http://t.co/AJNWGAzdKM pic.twitter.com/Ii6XHxRtV5

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles

Vote winning* policy from Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn has set out a £10bn plan to scrap all tuition fees and restore student maintenance grants in his first major policy announcement.

Corbyn said the plan could be funded either by a 7% rise in national insurance for those earning over £50,000 a year and a 2.5% higher corporation tax, or by slowing the pace at which the deficit is reduced.

Corbyn said: “I want to apologise on behalf of the Labour party to the last generation of students for the imposition of fees, top-up fees and the replacement of grants with loans by previous Labour governments. I opposed those changes at the time – as did many others – and now we have an opportunity to change course.”

http://bit.ly/1e17BJw

*Vote winning for the Tories

Freggles

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

TheScreamingEagles

From James Morris, Ed Miliband's pollster tweets

btw don't think this a real poll. Don't think anyone has lists needed to dial. Yougov only relevant panel and not them

Scrapheap_as_was

Happy Xmas PB Tories!

Scott_P

@SebastianEPayne: Cross-party coup for Tories: @Andrew_Adonis recruited by to oversee #HS2 delivery http://t.co/hcnPo9GSPu http://t.co/KDXi4k4p2s

EPG

This is polling as entertainment, which is fine, but I still don't think Corbyn is 4/1 really.

FPT
Interesting facts from this week:
Yanis Varoufakis told the New Statesman that George Osborne and the Conservatives were the most supportive of European leaders to SYRIZA because of their anti-euro and eurosceptic position.
David Cameron told MPs at PMQs that Britain can't assist in a euro crisis, but were Greece to leave the euro, Britain could offer humanitarian aid.

From outside, it might look almost like deliberately undermining somebody else's currency.

Danny565

Freggles said:

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

It does seem to have been useful in reminding the Blairites/the press what the hard left REALLY looks like, and hopefully will mean in future they have more perspective on the type of incredibly moderate proposals Miliband put forward.

tlg86

Freggles said:

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

Or he could knock Burnham out before the final two....

SquareRoot

As I said.. beware the origin of this poll. Its about as trustworthy as...Mandleson..

david_herdson

Freggles said:

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

On the contrary: he very much could. He probably won't but that's only saying he's not odds-on, which he's not.

If he does though, it won't be Tories doing it for him; it'll be the unions throwing their weight around again. Unite backing him and claiming to sign up 50000 union members as 'supporters' is significant when Labour's overall membership was about 220000 just after the election. Of course, we don't know whether that's true and even if it is, they won't all vote for Corbyn but it will make a difference and that could be enough.

You do have to wonder whether Labour's intent on making all the mistakes the Tories did after 1997, in the same order.

SquareRoot

SquareRoot said:

As I said.. beware the origin of this poll. Its about as trustworthy as...Mandleson..

PS If you have any doubt about Corbyn's suitability, just look at how he gets his hackles up at the simplest of questions from the C4 interview.
If Labour elect Corbyn, they will deserve what comes after. Foot by comparison was lucid (if bonkers)

HYUFD

'Escape from ISIS' just started on C4

Speedy

This thread is proof that leadership elections should be restricted to party members only.

Speedy

HYUFD said:

'Escape from ISIS' just started on C4

Is that a movie or a documentary title?

Life_ina_market_town

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

Speedy

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

The EU doesn't have any rules.
If they had, this mess would never have happened, as half the eurozone members were ineligible to join it in the first place according to EU rules. And the bailouts are also illegal under EU rules.

Scrapheap_as_was

I wouldn't mind losing my much awaited "Yvette for LotO" bet if JC is to pip her for it...

foxinsoxuk

Speedy said:

HYUFD said:

'Escape from ISIS' just started on C4

Is that a movie or a documentary title?

Documentary with interviews.

HYUFD

Speedy said:

HYUFD said:

'Escape from ISIS' just started on C4

Is that a movie or a documentary title?

A documentary including hidden camera footage from inside the Islamic State

nigel4england

Speedy said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

The EU doesn't have any rules.
If they had, this mess would never have happened, as half the eurozone members were ineligible to join it in the first place according to EU rules. And the bailouts are also illegal under EU rules.

Can someone please justify to me why we are part of this madness.

Sean_F

david_herdson said:

Freggles said:

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

On the contrary: he very much could. He probably won't but that's only saying he's not odds-on, which he's not.

If he does though, it won't be Tories doing it for him; it'll be the unions throwing their weight around again. Unite backing him and claiming to sign up 50000 union members as 'supporters' is significant when Labour's overall membership was about 220000 just after the election. Of course, we don't know whether that's true and even if it is, they won't all vote for Corbyn but it will make a difference and that could be enough.

You do have to wonder whether Labour's intent on making all the mistakes the Tories did after 1997, in the same order.

Making worse mistakes. It would be like making Theresa Gorman party leader.

MrsB

FPT the House of Lords is part of the current system. Therefore the Lib Dems peers are perfectly entitled to use it to push Liberal Democracy.

I voted for Farron. So far I have never voted for the person who became Lib Dem leader. So either Mike or I will break new ground tomorrow, because one of us will have voted with the majority.
I am just grateful we had two strong candidates in Lamb and Farron. I cannot imagine the despair in the Labour party while they try and decide what their least worst option is.

Y0kel

Who is voting for this guy?

Thats what they get for doing their charitable, 'we must hear all views' and 'here's a sympathy vote'.

Still I find this possibility of success a bit of a leap. As much as I despise large sections of Labour's dictatorial socialism, progressivism or whatever they want to call it this week, the only people who really could favour this guy are some (and only some) of the unions, people still talking about Thatcher, even though she is long gone and a large number of cranks who just fancy a laugh voting for him.

JEO

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

What's ridiculous is the view the EU took in the Greek negotiations:

"I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."

So agreements, even those made by different governments, must always be stuck to by member states, but the EU can chuck them out with impunity.

Pulpstar

MrsB said:

FPT the House of Lords is part of the current system. Therefore the Lib Dems peers are perfectly entitled to use it to push Liberal Democracy.

I voted for Farron. So far I have never voted for the person who became Lib Dem leader. So either Mike or I will break new ground tomorrow, because one of us will have voted with the majority.
I am just grateful we had two strong candidates in Lamb and Farron. I cannot imagine the despair in the Labour party while they try and decide what their least worst option is.

Cooper quite clearly. You owe the site some money if it's Andy Burnham I remember

kle4

Speedy said:

This thread is proof that leadership elections should be restricted to party members

That seems sound. The actual amount of mischief may in the end be low, but I don't see that the benefits to opening it up are that grand. You won't actually reach all that much farther than you might have sticking only to party members, and while I can see some benefit in a constituency battle, particular a tight one, to allowing non party members a say, to try to invest them in the winning candidate before the actual contest a little, leadership battle rules should be pretty strict I think.

MrsB

@pulpstar I do indeed owe some money if it's Burnham. I still cannot believe they will be that stupid. Surely they will pick one of the two women?

TheScreamingEagles

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

NickPalmer

Results from the huge Islington North CLP (unless Andrea's posted them already!): this is Corbyn's home CLP and he won with 2/3 of the vote on the first ballot, followed by Cooper, Kendall and Burnham in that order. Speakers for all the candidates were politely applauded - generally friendly atmosphere. Creasy won the Deputy nomination, from Eagle, followed by Watson, Flint and Bradshaw in that order. Interestingly, nobody in the hall spoke up in favour of Tom Watson (everyone else had vocal supporters), though he did get 15% of the vote. Corbyn gave an engaging, uncontroversial speech of thanks after it was over.

HYUFD

MrsB said:

@pulpstar I do indeed owe some money if it's Burnham. I still cannot believe they will be that stupid. Surely they will pick one of the two women?

Corbyn maybe stupid, Burnham not, he has the highest favourables of all the candidates (Corbyn the lowest)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html

kle4

nigel4england said:

Speedy said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

The EU doesn't have any rules.
If they had, this mess would never have happened, as half the eurozone members were ineligible to join it in the first place according to EU rules. And the bailouts are also illegal under EU rules.

Can someone please justify to me why we are part of this madness.

I must say I have found it mentally much more relaxing since I decided all the hassle of the european bureaucracy (I'll stick to British bureaucratic nonsense, thank you very much - although no joke, having sat in on a discussion of european funding streams today, the British bureaucrats and rules seem amateurish and simplistic in comparison) and pressures down a path of integration I do not desire, was simply not worth what benefits there may be. Unless one is a true believer, which although I was an In voter, I was not one of those, it can be exhausting excusing this, or qualifying that. Eventually, it broke me.

Danny565 said:

Freggles said:

Corbyn is not going to win

But the 'momentum' behind him could be useful in casting Burnham as a moderate

It does seem to have been useful in reminding the Blairites/the press what the hard left REALLY looks like, and hopefully will mean in future they have more perspective on the type of incredibly moderate proposals Miliband put forward.

I wonder if Corbyn agreed with the 'Red Ed' tag - I suspect not.

Y0kel

You know now I think about it....Electing a leader who looks like a 1980s folk singer who never released a record but was frequently seen strumming a guitar at Greenham Common maybe isn't such a bad thing after all.

PS..CND, you failed.

kle4

I want to see the people - and I am sure they exist - who do not think Corbyn is a true Lefty. You know, people who call each other Comrade unironically and the like.

Tim_B

NickPalmer said:

Results from the huge Islington North CLP (unless Andrea's posted them already!): this is Corbyn's home CLP and he won with 2/3 of the vote on the first ballot, followed by Cooper, Kendall and Burnham in that order. Speakers for all the candidates were politely applauded - generally friendly atmosphere. Creasy won the Deputy nomination, from Eagle, followed by Watson, Flint and Bradshaw in that order. Interestingly, nobody in the hall spoke up in favour of Tom Watson (everyone else had vocal supporters), though he did get 15% of the vote. Corbyn gave an engaging, uncontroversial speech of thanks after it was over.

Tom's having a busy week, as he will be playing in his last Open Championship starting tomorrow.

It does seem a bit odd that a man from Kansas City is bidding for leadership of the Labour Party, unless - incredibly - there is more than one Tom Watson. Surely not

Theuniondivvie

'Telegraph providing step by step guide on how to vote for Corbyn in order to help "doom" LAB.'

Fresh from their success with their step-by-step guide to dooming the SNP.

#LABout

Tim_B

nigel4england said:

Speedy said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

The EU doesn't have any rules.
If they had, this mess would never have happened, as half the eurozone members were ineligible to join it in the first place according to EU rules. And the bailouts are also illegal under EU rules.

Can someone please justify to me why we are part of this madness.

When the referendum was held, it was called the EEC, and it was sold as a free trade area, not a customs union, more like EFTA on steroids.

In those days the left hated it, the right loved it.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/621435678287474688

Pulpstar

Tim_B said:

nigel4england said:

Speedy said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

The EU doesn't have any rules.
If they had, this mess would never have happened, as half the eurozone members were ineligible to join it in the first place according to EU rules. And the bailouts are also illegal under EU rules.

Can someone please justify to me why we are part of this madness.

When the referendum was held, it was called the EEC, and it was sold as a free trade area, not a customs union, more like EFTA on steroids.

In those days the left hated it, the right loved it.

Tbh I'd happily take it if it was just a customs union - not having the fear of import duty on stuff from the EU is a nice perk.

Sunil_Prasannan

Trotskyism is a tool of the Capitalists! Leninism is a weapon for the Workers!

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/download/leaflets/trotskyism_20141027.pdf

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

Except IDS never lost a General Election as Tory Leader!

HYUFD

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Scott_P

Tim_B said:

Tom's having a busy week, as he will be playing in his last Open Championship starting tomorrow.

He Tim, that'll be bust then...

@NFL: It's Super Bowl-or-bust for the @dallascowboys.

The Dez deal proves it (via @AroundTheNFL): http://t.co/shetX36JDT http://t.co/f3yBXHjeyn

TheScreamingEagles

@robfordmancs: The 2015 elec in one stat? Lab had c.40 pt lead among those with 0% predicted prob of vote, Con had c.10 pt lead among those with 100% prob

Sunil_Prasannan

Speedy said:

HYUFD said:

'Escape from ISIS' just started on C4

Is that a movie or a documentary title?

If it's a movie, it will have to star Kurt Russell!

MikeL

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it totally inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't obvious at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

Sunil_Prasannan

Scrapheap_as_was said:

Happy Xmas PB Tories!

Only 5 months and 10 days to save Xmas!

john_zims

@nigel4england

'Can someone please justify to me why we are part of this madness.'

Hopefully for not much longer.

TheScreamingEagles

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

@robfordmancs: The 2015 elec in one stat? Lab had c.40 pt lead among those with 0% predicted prob of vote, Con had c.10 pt lead among those with 100% prob

Labour's vote increased by 1.4% on 2010!

EPG

JEO said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

What's ridiculous is the view the EU took in the Greek negotiations:

"I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."

So agreements, even those made by different governments, must always be stuck to by member states, but the EU can chuck them out with impunity.

The programme agreed was different to the previous one. So they changed the EU-Greek agreement.

HYUFD

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

Except IDS never lost a General Election as Tory Leader!

TheScreamingEagles said:

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

Perhaps you should write a similar one on why it is in the Tories interest to replace Cameron with Bill Cash!

tyson

TheScreamingEagles said:

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

or William Hague over Ken Clarke.
or Michael Foot over Dennis Healey
or John Major over Michael Heseltine
Or Michael Howard over ??
Or Ed Miliband over David Miliband
Or that Green women over just about anyone else

Political parties invariably lose any kind of judgment on electing party leaders. Whilst, I think Thatcher was pure luck over judgment, it took the Tories about half a century after McMillan to elect the most suitable leader. Next time it'll doubtless back Osborne who is completely unelectable (unless of course Labour have Corbyn)

HYUFD

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

Except IDS never lost a General Election as Tory Leader!

No, Michael Howard lost it for him

kle4

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Trotskyism is a tool of the Capitalists! Leninism is a weapon for the Workers!

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/download/leaflets/trotskyism_20141027.pdf

Who is that sort of material for, honestly?

I don't like Trotsky, but I'm amazed he and his intellectual fellow travelers still provoke such ire. A snippet:

[Trotsky] would have been devastated to witness the crowning victory of socialism over fascism, but was saved that final humiliation thanks to his assassination by one of his own followers in Mexico in 1940

And, given the splits in the radical Left, a great bit of lack of self awareness:

Right in essence and Left in form is the best way of describing this malicious tendency, which everywhere sows confusion and division in the working class movement

IDK, I really don't think Trotskyism has as much influence on such things as the CPGB-ML (terrible acronym btw - if people cannot pronounce it and it has more than three letters, it's no good) think it does.

Also, maybe it's me, but perhaps they should spend more time explaining what's great about the ML approach rather than ranting about Trotsky? I guess those reading it already know the details, but tactically?

Scott_P

@JoshDixonTweets: 8 more CLP nominations for Corbyn this evening. That's more than Kendall has picked up over the entire campaign. Let that sink in.

EPG

HYUFD said:

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Still they held out against the SDP, and the Liberal Democrats, despite strong efforts from both parties. That is a good record considering it's... Islington.

EPG

kle4 said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Trotskyism is a tool of the Capitalists! Leninism is a weapon for the Workers!

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/download/leaflets/trotskyism_20141027.pdf

Who is that sort of material for, honestly?

I don't like Trotsky, but I'm amazed he and his intellectual fellow travelers still provoke such ire. A snippet:

[Trotsky] would have been devastated to witness the crowning victory of socialism over fascism, but was saved that final humiliation thanks to his assassination by one of his own followers in Mexico in 1940

And, given the splits in the radical Left, a great bit of lack of self awareness:

Right in essence and Left in form is the best way of describing this malicious tendency, which everywhere sows confusion and division in the working class movement

IDK, I really don't think Trotskyism has as much influence on such things as the CPGB-ML (terrible acronym btw - if people cannot pronounce it and it has more than three letters, it's no good) think it does.

Also, maybe it's me, but perhaps they should spend more time explaining what's great about the ML approach rather than ranting about Trotsky? I guess those reading it already know the details, but tactically?

I guess most people convincable by Marxism-Leninism are also convincable by Trotskyism.

It's like targetting a very, very, very strange kind of swing voter.

kle4

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it totally inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't obvious at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

True enough, always a risk. I think he seems unfiltered enough and genuinely out of step with the nebulous mass that is the centre in many ways that he would, if Leader, not have the discipline to avoid saying or doing something that would force the hand of the rest of the parliamentary party to get him out.

If he really did say he would step down before 2020 if elected leader, then he is a tremendous d*ckhead, if I may be so bold, out only for an ego trip. If you don't really want the job, don't run for it.

SimonStClare

This Telegraph 'step by step' guide is either taking the pish, - or exposing Labour’s ridiculous decision not to restrict voting eligibility in the leadership challenge, to those already signed up at GE2015. Either way, flogging votes for 3 quid a pop was just begging for it to be abused.

tyson

TheScreamingEagles said:

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

TSE- I kind of think there is some kind of method in this madness. Corbyn of course is hopelessly unelectable. But he is principled, courageous, ethical. Give him three years of principled fiery opposition to Cameron, and when the Tories change leader to the almost (not quite) unelectable Osborne, then Labour can bring in an a Chuka, Kendall, Jarvis, Miliband Senior to take the pickings and sweep to a landslide. Almost Machiavellian in it's strategic posturing.

kle4

JEO said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

What's ridiculous is the view the EU took in the Greek negotiations:

"I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."

So agreements, even those made by different governments, must always be stuck to by member states, but the EU can chuck them out with impunity.

While I took a harsh view toward Greece and their various claims about democracy and how that meant they should get a better deal and so on, I have to admit I recall thinking years ago in response to I believe a German official comment along those lines, that it was nonsense. Of course a new government can ignore or rip a commitment made by a previous government. They would no doubt face some major consequences if they did, it might be really unwise, but they absolutely could if they wanted to.

Danny565

Scott_P said:

@JoshDixonTweets: 8 more CLP nominations for Corbyn this evening. That's more than Kendall has picked up over the entire campaign. Let that sink in.

Closing in on Burnham

isam

TheScreamingEagles said:

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

Spend some time on the commas

RobD

isam said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

Spend some time on the commas

What about the full stops?

NickPalmer

HYUFD said:

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Well, they do pretty well in Islington North - Corbyn got over 60% (+5.8% over last time), including a substantial personal vote (some of the support tonight was on that basis too). The CLP has lots of WWC members as well as the Guardian tendency that one might imagine. If Britain was inner London, Corbyn would be an excellent choice. I think it's just possible that he might enthuse wider circles too but he'd certainly be a gamble. A more realistic outcome is that he comes a good second and gets a job like Shadow to IDS.

Creasy's cross-spectrum appeal was shown again - one might not have expected her to do that well in a left-wing CLP, but people felt she has much-needed charisma.

Tim_B

Scott_P said:

Tim_B said:

Tom's having a busy week, as he will be playing in his last Open Championship starting tomorrow.

He Tim, that'll be bust then...

@NFL: It's Super Bowl-or-bust for the @dallascowboys.

The Dez deal proves it (via @AroundTheNFL): http://t.co/shetX36JDT http://t.co/f3yBXHjeyn

Sir:

please cease and desist from these shallow and trite jibes about America's Team - as you know I am not a fan.

If I was I'd be saying something like - "How 'bout them Cowboys?"

Danny565

kle4 said:

If he really did say he would step down before 2020 if elected leader, then he is a tremendous d*ckhead, if I may be so bold, out only for an ego trip. If you don't really want the job, don't run for it.

I honestly don't think he anticipated doing anywhere near as well as this. He only seemed to want to shift the debate (and the other candidates) to the Left.

HYUFD

tyson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MikeL said:

I doubt whether many will agree but should Con supporters be supporting Corbyn?

His prospects of winning in 2020 may seem remote but who knows? Is it really inconceivable that a Corbyn led Lab + SNP could get into Coalition?

Everyone now takes the 2015 GE as read - it was all "obvious" - but it certainly wasn't at the time. Con only has to lose 15 or 20 seats. And in 2020 Con will not have Cameron - it's very unlikely the new leader will have as much appeal to floating voters.

It may all seem a joke but momentum can change.

Only caveat would be will Corbyn last until 2020? I posted earlier that The Times said that Corbyn had said he will quit before 2020. But can anyone confirm that?

Plus of course he could get forced out by Lab MPs?

I've started writing a thread for Sunday saying why it is in Labour's interest to elect Corbyn as leader.

TSE- I kind of think there is some kind of method in this madness. Corbyn of course is hopelessly unelectable. But he is principled, courageous, ethical. Give him three years of principled fiery opposition to Cameron, and when the Tories change leader to the almost (not quite) unelectable Osborne, then Labour can bring in an a Chuka, Kendall, Jarvis, Miliband Senior to take the pickings and sweep to a landslide. Almost Machiavellian in it's strategic posturing.

If Cameron and Osborne are clever they would simply change the Fixed Parliaments Act and call an election in 3/4 years time with Corbyn still at the helm, crushing Labour to an even worse defeat than 2015 in the process! A Farron led LDs and UKIP could well be snapping at Labour's heals in the meantime

foxinsoxuk

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Well, they do pretty well in Islington North - Corbyn got over 60% (+5.8% over last time), including a substantial personal vote (some of the support tonight was on that basis too). The CLP has lots of WWC members as well as the Guardian tendency that one might imagine. If Britain was inner London, Corbyn would be an excellent choice. I think it's just possible that he might enthuse wider circles too but he'd certainly be a gamble. A more realistic outcome is that he comes a good second and gets a job like Shadow to IDS.

Creasy's cross-spectrum appeal was shown again - one might not have expected her to do that well in a left-wing CLP, but people felt she has much-needed charisma.

Is he still pledged to have annual leadership contests?

Creasy is best of the deputy candidates, but how will she do outside the Smoke?

HYUFD

tyson said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I now know how Labour felt when they saw the Tories elect IDS over Ken Clarke.

or William Hague over Ken Clarke.
or Michael Foot over Dennis Healey
or John Major over Michael Heseltine
Or Michael Howard over ??
Or Ed Miliband over David Miliband
Or that Green women over just about anyone else

Political parties invariably lose any kind of judgment on electing party leaders. Whilst, I think Thatcher was pure luck over judgment, it took the Tories about half a century after McMillan to elect the most suitable leader. Next time it'll doubtless back Osborne who is completely unelectable (unless of course Labour have Corbyn)

John Major did actually win the 1992 election and held the Tories together in a way Heseltine would not. Agree on the others, not forgetting Butler over Home in 1964. However Corbyn would be perhaps the worst pick of all

Sunil_Prasannan

I think I know why I voted Labour on May 7th.

I'm an extremely shy Tory.

In fact, I'm so painfully shy, I found myself physically incapable of marking an "X" in the Conservative box on my ballot paper!

kle4

Danny565 said:

kle4 said:

If he really did say he would step down before 2020 if elected leader, then he is a tremendous d*ckhead, if I may be so bold, out only for an ego trip. If you don't really want the job, don't run for it.

I honestly don't think he anticipated doing anywhere near as well as this. He only seemed to want to shift the debate (and the other candidates) to the Left.

Not an unreasonable goal, in itself. But in putting himself forward, and presumably not withdrawing prior to the sending of the ballots, a principled person as he apparently is would accept the party had surprised even him and he had a responsibility to commit to the job if he won.

Maybe it would be reasonable to step down in years to come (either jumping or being pushed), he could say it was clear Labour needed someone else to take them forward, but if he has already decided to step down if he wins, that's a waste of everyone's time.

Danny565

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/621442417888260096

HYUFD

EPG said:

HYUFD said:

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Still they held out against the SDP, and the Liberal Democrats, despite strong efforts from both parties. That is a good record considering it's... Islington.

It was partly the likes of Islington CLP which helped create the SDP in the first place

foxinsoxuk

When is the last opportunity to buy a vote?

john_zims

@Scott_P

'@JoshDixonTweets: 8 more CLP nominations for Corbyn this evening. That's more than Kendall has picked up over the entire campaign. Let that sink in.'

More good news, we just need Watson or Eagles as his deputy.

HYUFD

Danny565 said:

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/621442417888260096

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

Islington CLP have just made their selection in reverse order of electability in my view, showing Islington Labour is still more of a philosophy club than an election fighting machine!

Well, they do pretty well in Islington North - Corbyn got over 60% (+5.8% over last time), including a substantial personal vote (some of the support tonight was on that basis too). The CLP has lots of WWC members as well as the Guardian tendency that one might imagine. If Britain was inner London, Corbyn would be an excellent choice. I think it's just possible that he might enthuse wider circles too but he'd certainly be a gamble. A more realistic outcome is that he comes a good second and gets a job like Shadow to IDS.

Creasy's cross-spectrum appeal was shown again - one might not have expected her to do that well in a left-wing CLP, but people felt she has much-needed charisma.

Even if Labour fell below 20% in the polls Islington North would still be firmly flying the red flag and electing Labour with comfortable majorities, it is not the best source of advice as to how to win over middle class voters in Midlands and Kent marginals and working class voters in the North. Corbyn would be the worst choice for Labour by a comfortable margin and would mean that Labour would have to play defence at the next election, never mind trying to win it.
Like the Healey v Benn Deputy Battle after Foot's leadership win, if Corbyn wins the Deputy battle may increase in importance just to maintain a shred of sanity in the party!

Charles

HYUFD said:

MrsB said:

@pulpstar I do indeed owe some money if it's Burnham. I still cannot believe they will be that stupid. Surely they will pick one of the two women?

Corbyn maybe stupid, Burnham not, he has the highest favourables of all the candidates (Corbyn the lowest)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html

Give it, Hell Yes!

You've posted that, what, 30 times? No one's convinced, so it's just getting boring now

Scott_P

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras says - I don't believe the measures will benefit the economy. More: http://t.co/d69tRvyoFr

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras - Greece needs debt restructuring to exit the crisis.

The_Apocalypse

It's interesting that the Burnham campaign apparently doesn't think Corbyn is a challenger. I wonder what data they are getting to suggest this....

Flightpathl

The more perceptive of you will remember that one of my mantras is that changing party leader is an incredibly dangerous time for a political party.
The current Corbyn mania has left behind the poor old LibDems and the desperate choice they face.
The Greeks have probably realised that after that the next most dangerous time is electing a prime Minister.

HYUFD

Charles said:

HYUFD said:

MrsB said:

@pulpstar I do indeed owe some money if it's Burnham. I still cannot believe they will be that stupid. Surely they will pick one of the two women?

Corbyn maybe stupid, Burnham not, he has the highest favourables of all the candidates (Corbyn the lowest)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html

Give it, Hell Yes!

You've posted that, what, 30 times? No one's convinced, so it's just getting boring now

Well I am basing it on polling evidence, so if people refuse to believe it that is up to them, I am simply letting the facts speak for themselves!

Pulpstar

Scott_P said:

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras says - I don't believe the measures will benefit the economy. More: http://t.co/d69tRvyoFr

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras - Greece needs debt restructuring to exit the crisis.

He's right about that.

kle4

Scott_P said:

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras says - I don't believe the measures will benefit the economy. More: http://t.co/d69tRvyoFr

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek PM Tsipras - Greece needs debt restructuring to exit the crisis.

He's probably right about that. I don't feel sorry for him, although even though the people as a whole are at some point and to some degree responsible for getting themselves into this mess given their own electoral choices right and left I do feel sorry for the Greeks as a whole, but it cannot be easy to stand up and say "This is a crap deal, I gambled with your futures that I could get a better one and I was wrong, but it's too late now".

Good night all

MyBurningEars

Y0kel said:

Who is voting for this guy?

Thats what they get for doing their charitable, 'we must hear all views' and 'here's a sympathy vote'.

Still I find this possibility of success a bit of a leap. As much as I despise large sections of Labour's dictatorial socialism, progressivism or whatever they want to call it this week, the only people who really could favour this guy are some (and only some) of the unions, people still talking about Thatcher, even though she is long gone and a large number of cranks who just fancy a laugh voting for him.

He has his supporters. Students and young'uns seem to love him, as do recent joiners to the party.

Scott_P

@iainmartin1: Having blown itself up in Scotland, the Labour party seems to be committing suicide in England. A political tragedy unfolding.

handandmouse

Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each. Yvette Cooper is on 30. Liz Kendall just 5.

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/621447023649230848

HYUFD

handandmouse said:

Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each. Yvette Cooper is on 30. Liz Kendall just 5.

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/621447023649230848

It looks like Corbyn could now win on round 1, Burnham will still hope to beat him with Cooper and Kendall's preferences but it could be tight

Scott_P

And so, while Harman flirts with rewriting the opening lines of her obituary, the zombie leadership election plays on to deafening indifference for all but Jeremy Corbyn. In what reminds one of a stultifying dreadful fringe theatre production of a 127th-rate family psychodrama, they let the mad uncle out of the attic as a joke, but found when he came downstairs that he made far more sense than his sneering nieces and nephews.

A victory for Corbyn, whose odds narrow all the time, would unquestionably be the silver bullet to end the suffering and lay the Labour Party to eternal rest. Failing that, the Night of the Undead must go on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/labours-tragedy-is-that-jeremy-corbyn-is-much-the-best-leadership-candidate-10389228.html

SimonStClare

Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each.

#Corbygasm

TheScreamingEagles

SimonStClare said:

Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each.

#Corbygasm

No, No, No!

The hashtag is

#JezWeCan

isam

Scott_P said:

And so, while Harman flirts with rewriting the opening lines of her obituary, the zombie leadership election plays on to deafening indifference for all but Jeremy Corbyn. In what reminds one of a stultifying dreadful fringe theatre production of a 127th-rate family psychodrama, they let the mad uncle out of the attic as a joke, but found when he came downstairs that he made far more sense than his sneering nieces and nephews.

A victory for Corbyn, whose odds narrow all the time, would unquestionably be the silver bullet to end the suffering and lay the Labour Party to eternal rest. Failing that, the Night of the Undead must go on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/labours-tragedy-is-that-jeremy-corbyn-is-much-the-best-leadership-candidate-10389228.html

It's true he is the only one that might inspire people to vote.

The Tories have reclaimed the clothes that Blair borrowed from Major, where else is there to go?

The_Apocalypse

So presumably in the event of a Corbyn victory, the Labour party dies (according to Tories), who becomes the official opposition? Genuinely interested, as despite the fact Labour have no chance winning with Corbyn, I doubt the actual party would 'die'.

Flightpathl

kle4 said:

I want to see the people - and I am sure they exist - who do not think Corbyn is a true Lefty. You know, people who call each other Comrade unironically and the like.

Sorry, but Stalin shot them all.

Monty

Don't get carried away. The sort of members who go to Labour Party meetings are very different from rank and file. Rank and file are more conservative with a small 'c'. My CLP voted for Yvette by a margin of 3-1 with Corbyn 2nd. No votes for Burnham. 1 for Kendall.
I don't approve of the Telegraph's advocacy of entryism. Very anti-democratic and I'm a democrat way before I'm a Labour supporter. Shame on them, and I'd say the same if it were the other way around. Democracy is too precious to abuse.

kle4

The_Apocalypse said:

So presumably in the event of a Corbyn victory, the Labour party dies (according to Tories), who becomes the official opposition? Genuinely interested, as despite the fact Labour have no chance winning with Corbyn, I doubt the actual party would 'die'.

Even 'dead' the party would get some opposition done, just as the Tories did in the dark days, they'd just be much more irrelevant and reliant on the Tories messing up and getting unlucky in events. As it is, they're merely panicking too much after spending 5 years not panicking enough (though people like me agreed with them not needing to panic, though I at least conceded they did not need to risk complacency)

Sunil_Prasannan

TheScreamingEagles said:

SimonStClare said:

Jeremy Corbyn has just drawn level with Andy Burnham on CLP nominations, with 48 each.

#Corbygasm

No, No, No!

The hashtag is

#JezWeCan

No, silly!

#JICIPM

Charles

kle4 said:

JEO said:

Life_ina_market_town said:

Apparently the European Commission's latest idea is that the UK's contribution to the Greek bridging finance can be set off against the European Central Bank’s €3.4 billion profits from Greek bonds. This is quite extraordinary. Firstly, those profits can only be realised in accordance with article 33 of the bank's statute, which does not allow for the proposal. Secondly, this would amount to ECB guaranteeing the UK's lending, which is explicitly forbidden by article 123(1) TFEU. No doubt this wholly illegal proposal will escape challenge, but the fact it is even being suggested demonstrates the lengths to which the EU institutions will go to defy of their own rules.

What's ridiculous is the view the EU took in the Greek negotiations:

"I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything."

So agreements, even those made by different governments, must always be stuck to by member states, but the EU can chuck them out with impunity.

While I took a harsh view toward Greece and their various claims about democracy and how that meant they should get a better deal and so on, I have to admit I recall thinking years ago in response to I believe a German official comment along those lines, that it was nonsense. Of course a new government can ignore or rip a commitment made by a previous government. They would no doubt face some major consequences if they did, it might be really unwise, but they absolutely could if they wanted to.

And, of course, Junker has made the argument that a political agreement has no legal force

Scott_P

@DanHannanMEP: Is a single Greek MP capable of sticking to the same position for more than a few days? https://t.co/rlM1h79D34

Scott_P

@Reuters: BREAKING: Greek parliament approves bailout prior measures package.