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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Pax Osbornia: recasting the political landscape into the 20

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Pax Osbornia: recasting the political landscape into the 2030s

It takes a staggering degree of self-restraint and of confidence to know that you plan to increase the minimum wage by more than 10% and to choose to say nothing about it during an election campaign. It also shows a fine level of political judgement. Had George Osborne done so, he would have been accused of panicking and of allowing Labour to set the agenda.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,889
    Next PM will be Osborne
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,889
    edited July 2015
    Excellent article David which I agree with almost in its entirety; except for the conclusion.

    I think the next PM will be Osborne. As you say he has an awareness of his own presentational defects. But more importantly he has the support of the PM, who controls the agenda and who has already stated that he will step down before the next GE in what is now a fixed term parliament. So I think you need to be cautious with comparisons with history of previous chancellors/favourites to succeed. Cameron and Osborne have far greater control of "succession planning" than was in the gift of former PMs.

    Osborne is in the box seat and is currently best placed to take over when Cameron steps aside.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I love the long, detailed, measured set up of the potential significance and political benefit to Osborne, then brutally countered with 'but he has a punchable face'. It is true though.

    I do think he'd make a better no. 2 than a frontman, but nor am I sure his politics will succeed as much as this article thinks it might. There have been not insignificant grumblings from some on the right on this budget.

    On the other hand, having Cameron's support could see him overcome his downsides, if Cameron is going out as a winner. Perhaps this falls under the heading of charisma, but what Cameron has which Osborne might not is that although some people hate him, most people do not fear him, fear what he might do. Maybe it's not outright likability even, but labour scare tactics didn't stick to Cameron the way Tory ones did on ed m. Osborne being less likeable, or inoffensive at least, may not have the same benefit, so he needs Cameron to go out strong for him as obvious successor to work, so the party might think he has a shot with the public like Cameron.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    So the Greece crisis is shortly to be kicked down the road again I see. It's hard to see the creditors rejecting the new offered terms even if in private they don't trust syrizia to actually follow through, when what is being offered is being presented as a climbdown from Tsipras. That should satisfy personal desires to see him punished for playing silly buggers, given they have no stomach to take things further.

    Honestly, what was the point of all the anguish and confusion of the last 6 months, the last few years, if this is where they've all ended up ?
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    kle4 said:

    So the Greece crisis is shortly to be kicked down the road again I see. It's hard to see the creditors rejecting the new offered terms even if in private they don't trust syrizia to actually follow through, when what is being offered is being presented as a climbdown from Tsipras. That should satisfy personal desires to see him punished for playing silly buggers, given they have no stomach to take things further.

    Honestly, what was the point of all the anguish and confusion of the last 6 months, the last few years, if this is where they've all ended up ?

    I think the message of the last two weeks is clear: the ECB will not continue to be messed around. By refusing to continue to finance the Greek banks, they have brought the Greek economy to the brink of total collapse. Which is why we have an agreement. Greece was facing absolute economic ruin : not in months or weeks but days. Concentrates the minds wonderfully:-)

    As for the future the Greek banks need LOTS of money to recapitalise. Like LOTS. And the only source is the ECB. So the ECB have a huge weapon: enact reforms or we will pull the plug on the banks.

    The steel fist in the velvet glove.Tsipras are responsible. They screwed it up.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Looking at the 'reforms' Greece has agreed to, it seems pretty apparent that by northern European standards, their economy has been something of a basket case...

    http://www.naftemporiki.gr/finance/story/976680/the-greek-reform-proposals
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    kle4 said:

    So the Greece crisis is shortly to be kicked down the road again I see. It's hard to see the creditors rejecting the new offered terms even if in private they don't trust syrizia to actually follow through, when what is being offered is being presented as a climbdown from Tsipras. That should satisfy personal desires to see him punished for playing silly buggers, given they have no stomach to take things further.

    Honestly, what was the point of all the anguish and confusion of the last 6 months, the last few years, if this is where they've all ended up ?

    Now Tsipras has to hope some bright spark in one of the creditor countries doesn't decide to hold a referendum on it...
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    @kle4 They still have to convince Germany + several other Eastern European countries, who so far have had a somewhat negative response to the new proposals.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited July 2015
    Good article Mr Herdson.

    Despite being the Tories' best strategist and enjoying the current back-slaps I don't see Osborne as leader for the reasons you mention.

    If he really wants the top job - and his cultivation of backbench supporters (a pointer to his admirable level of hard work) suggests he does) I think he will be better served to a) concentrate on doing a very good and loyal job as Chancellor (avoiding 'differentiation' and 'carving out his own image' bollocks ) and b) act as though he doesn't covet it; that he is a slightly reluctant, modest successor.

    Along with his slappable face, Osborne's other unfortunate tic is his sneering, pompous joy in the Commons. It is off-putting, even for me as a supporter. I suspect most non tribal voters will be willing to reward Osborne for his success if the economy goes well but only if he portrays himself as a statesmanlike, self-aware figure. He needs to avoid comparisons to Brown; as a plotting, tribal Chancellor, licking his lips at the prospect of power. If the media portray his as the heir-in-waiting I think he'll be ruined. The media like nothing better than a riches-to-rags political journey and they'll build him up ready for the electorate to knock him down.

    He's a much rejuvenated figure since the 2012 budget though and has to be the current favourite.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    It is possible that Cameron might decide to stay on if the party persuaded him to do so. I think its more than likely that he will have second thoughts.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952

    kle4 said:

    So the Greece crisis is shortly to be kicked down the road again I see. It's hard to see the creditors rejecting the new offered terms even if in private they don't trust syrizia to actually follow through, when what is being offered is being presented as a climbdown from Tsipras. That should satisfy personal desires to see him punished for playing silly buggers, given they have no stomach to take things further.

    Honestly, what was the point of all the anguish and confusion of the last 6 months, the last few years, if this is where they've all ended up ?

    I think the message of the last two weeks is clear: the ECB will not continue to be messed around. By refusing to continue to finance the Greek banks, they have brought the Greek economy to the brink of total collapse. Which is why we have an agreement. Greece was facing absolute economic ruin : not in months or weeks but days. Concentrates the minds wonderfully:-)

    As for the future the Greek banks need LOTS of money to recapitalise. Like LOTS. And the only source is the ECB. So the ECB have a huge weapon: enact reforms or we will pull the plug on the banks.

    The steel fist in the velvet glove.Tsipras are responsible. They screwed it up.
    From the standpoint of a professional negotiator, it is grimly amusing to see one side get it so horribly wrong. To have to accept far harsher terms than those rejected by your voters a week ago is playing your hand very badly. It would be like the Board firmly rejecting a £4 a share take-over deal, getting the shareholders to confirm that at an EGM - only to then tell them they have to accept £2 a share a week later, or else see the company goes bust.

    Not likely to enhance your career prospects...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2015
    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Well David is talking about the 2030s. We have no idea what politics will look like 15-25 years from now. 10 years is an impossibly long time frame. Just reflect on the change 2005-2015 or 1987-1997.

    You are right about events. It is sobering to think that the single defining event of 13 new Labour years had yet to happen at this same stage in the second term. An event no government could control.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    I've said it before, the quiet calm middle rankers become Tory leaders. Jeremy Hunt - the perfectly likeable front man for Osbornomic's second decade.

    Who was it that said Osborne should have been replaced by Hammond in early 2010?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    edited July 2015
    Fenster said:

    Good article Mr Herdson.

    Despite being the Tories' best strategist and enjoying the current back-slaps I don't see Osborne as leader for the reasons you mention.

    If he really wants the top job - and his cultivation of backbench supporters (a pointer to his admirable level of hard work) suggests he does) I think he will be better served to a) concentrate on doing a very good and loyal job as Chancellor (avoiding 'differentiation' and 'carving out his own image' bollocks ) and b) act as though he doesn't covet it; that he is a slightly reluctant, modest successor.

    Along with his slappable face, Osborne's other unfortunate tic is his sneering, pompous joy in the Commons. It is off-putting, even for me as a supporter. I suspect most non tribal voters will be willing to reward Osborne for his success if the economy goes well but only if he portrays himself as a statesmanlike, self-aware figure. He needs to avoid comparisons to Brown; as a plotting, tribal Chancellor, licking his lips at the prospect of power. If the media portray his as the heir-in-waiting I think he'll be ruined. The media like nothing better than a riches-to-rags political journey and they'll build him up ready for the electorate to knock him down.

    He's a much rejuvenated figure since the 2012 budget though and has to be the current favourite.

    It is interesting to re-visit the fabled "omnishambles" budget.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17449501

    The main point was obviously stomping on the landmine laid by Labour, to reduce top rate tax from 50% to 45% (Labour happily ignoring that the 40% rate they inherited from Thatcher was kept in place for 98% of their term). But that had to be detonated at some point - for the simple reason that it raises more tax at the lower rates.

    But once you get beyond the manufactured media-wank of the "pastie tax", this looks like just the sort of Budget to help steer the economy away from the rocks to which the Labour sirens would have lured us. In short, it was setting up the economy to be in fine fettle for the election in 2015. As some of us pointed out at the time...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Good morning, everyone.

    Wise words. As we all know, Priti Patel or Justine Greening will be the next Prime Minister/Conservative leader.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    I did some research on the omnishambles budget. Despite the noise, it achieved a notable political success for Osborne. It killed stone dead the issue of child benefit, which hitherto had been bubbling away in a very dangerous fashion.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Well, let's see! Thatcher had her teeth fixed which changed the structure of her face, her voice trained, and her hair sculpted, so there are hopes for Osborne. Apart from the hair, which is becoming as notorious as The Donald's (Trump) for being weird.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Well David is talking about the 2030s. We have no idea what politics will look like 15-25 years from now. 10 years is an impossibly long time frame. Just reflect on the change 2005-2015 or 1987-1997.

    You are right about events. It is sobering to think that the single defining event of 13 new Labour years had yet to happen at this same stage in the second term. An event no government could control.
    Maybe. But the 2015 win does feel somewhat like 1983 - that had 14 more years of Tory rule ahead of it. Even if the "Falklands factor" this time around was offered up by Labour in the shape of Ed "Menendez" Miliband and Alex "Galtieri" Salmond....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    I've said it before, the quiet calm middle rankers become Tory leaders. Jeremy Hunt - the perfectly likeable front man for Osbornomic's second decade.

    Who was it that said Osborne should have been replaced by Hammond in early 2010?

    I think Hunt is a very likely prospect, provided the NHS does not get into major problems in the next two years. In particular the finances are dire with last years acute Trust overspend of £800 million expected to hit £2 billion this year. The NHS and social care sector is very vulnerable to the rise in the minimum wage too.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    Well then you must think that giving people more than the country can afford is social justice . it isn't.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    Perhaps you were a little too close to Ed Balls then. Unlike the voters of Morley...

    But surely we can agree across the political divide - about the satisfaction of punching Piers Morgan?
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    Well then you must think that giving people more than the country can afford is social justice . it isn't.

    You mean what the rich think they want to afford...

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    An excellent article by Jonathan Freedland on the budget:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/george-osborne-july-budget-2015

    David Herdson's view of George Osborne matches mine exactly. He is the most self-aware major politician that I can recall. If he remains unassailable, I expect he'll find another front man to allow him to continue his current role.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    Well then you must think that giving people more than the country can afford is social justice . it isn't.

    It's all about choices. Raising the IHT threshold to £1 million while making millions of working families worse off is a choice; as is maintaining all benefits for pensioners, while reducing them for the young.

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    Well then you must think that giving people more than the country can afford is social justice . it isn't.

    It's all about choices. Raising the IHT threshold to £1 million while making millions of working families worse off is a choice; as is maintaining all benefits for pensioners, while reducing them for the young.

    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    It is possible that Cameron might decide to stay on if the party persuaded him to do so. I think its more than likely that he will have second thoughts.

    Perhaps, but I think David Cameron will be aware of the need to leave the stage while his health is intact and before hubris or worse takes hold, as it did for other long-serving leaders like Thatcher and Wilson, and perhaps Blair. American presidents serve at most 8 years, without having been leader of the opposition before that. Cameron by 2018 will have been Conservative leader for 13 years and Prime Minister for eight. Carrying on until the middle of the next parliament will mean 15 years as PM. I doubt he'll be up for it.

    (And maybe an unforeseen consequence of fixed term parliaments is that Prime Ministers will step down after one and a half terms, having done another five years as LotO.)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    antifrank said:

    An excellent article by Jonathan Freedland on the budget:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/george-osborne-july-budget-2015

    David Herdson's view of George Osborne matches mine exactly. He is the most self-aware major politician that I can recall. If he remains unassailable, I expect he'll find another front man to allow him to continue his current role.

    Yep, that is absolutely spot on. Osborne needs to do enough to keep the current Tory vote happy. He probably has. Labour's challenge is to find a way of connecting with enough of the remaining 63%. It's a hell of a task, but not totally impossible.

  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    I'm getting "feedback". You're not important, you know. Tick, tock, etc.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    FPT The reason Hove was a Labour gain (apart, I'm sure, from favourable demographic change) was that the incumbent Conservative MP stood down in order to fight cancer.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The Living Wage is a lovely meaningless phrase like Fairtrade. Osborne still hasn't grasped the market distortions created by Brown with tax credits, and The National Minimum Wage. He is still seduced by the state knows best nonsense, and overlooks subsequent government failures. The move is tactical, grabs Labour's clothes but for what real strategic advantage? Perhaps The Right might argue that he morphed into George Osbrowne, a tinkerer, playing silly political games to discomfort Opposition Parties, yet failing on too many fronts.

    Osborne as next leader, seems a possibility but he has to deliver on economic growth, infrastructure improvements - airports, railways, power supplies, roads et al.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    I agree with Nick, while there is none of the ridiculous "pasty tax" furore, there are some very worried low earners out there.

    A few years ago there was a graphic on the BBC website that showed by decile who were the net contributors financially to the state. It was only the top 40% with the top 10% paying more than half. A similar graphic showing the effect of the budget would be interesting.

    The ageing population means that the working population are going to get a raw deal in some way over the decades to come. We may be entering the times where pensioners are financially supporting their children, like Greece. That may be fine for folk like me who expect to be not far off higher rate tax in retirement, and with real eastate too, but for many it will not be so rosy.

    Universal Credit will solve it all, no doubt, but it does seem to be like waiting for Godot.



  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    Really? It was pretty clear that in work benefits were going to get pummelled. The Conservatives said so in their manifesto and at every opportunity Labour, lib dems and SNP repeated it back and asked where (which they refused to say).

    The transfer of employment costs from the tax payer to the employer was a masterstroke. The reality was that working tax credits (and child tax credits) were appallingly generous. Embarrassingly so.

    If you go back to around 2008/9 the amount of money a low earner could get with tax credits was eye watering. There was no maximum child limit, and there was actual no anti fraud mechanism.

    I have no children but when my wife went to university they threw tax credits at me. It began to get a touch embarrassing how much i could get.

    A family with three to four kids, and one low earner could get around £13,000 to £15,000 in tax credits (hint: that is why people flocked here from other parts of the world. Word gets back as to how these things work. You come here, register on the lowest possibly paid job and you make your income + 2x /3x in tax credits).
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    You do realise that inequality is the lowest since 1980?
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Labour CLP nominations.AB 40,JC 31,YC 26,LK 5.This could mean a different show-off on 2nd preferences between Burnham and Corbyn who has now reached a consistent 2nd place.This probably switches things in Andy Burnham's favour and could have been his cunning plan all along.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    FPT The reason Hove was a Labour gain (apart, I'm sure, from favourable demographic change) was that the incumbent Conservative MP stood down in order to fight cancer.

    maybe, maybe not its not just Hove any longer, lots of housing estates on the periphery that are not Tory areas.( IIRC).
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690
    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Tyndall, higher rate's the 40% one, right?

    What's the reasoning behind that sudden taxation?
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited July 2015
    notme said:

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Amazing how quickly some people forget that the Tories did not win a majority five years ago. And for "economic credibility" read "the perpetuation of social injustice and the intensification of inequality". But most Peebies seem to think that even to care about those things is a sign of intense addiction to vice.

    You do realise that inequality is the lowest since 1980?
    No, because the statistic related to four years ago, and it was since 1986, not 1980.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    Mr. Tyndall, higher rate's the 40% one, right?

    What's the reasoning behind that sudden taxation?

    Yep. I fall into the 40% bracket for earnings not the super tax bracket.

    I don't get the reasons for change at all except of course for it being an easy target. I cannot avoid the expenses as long as I am doing my job. The old rules (in existence at the moment) basically meant that if you were in one place for 2 years then you should be expected to move there which I suppose is reasonable even if it shows a lack of understanding of the nature of consulting work. Tax relief on expenses was limited to 2 years in one location.

    The new rules basically mean that the only way I would have been able to avoid the expenses (and hence the tax) for the last 18 months - as an example - would have been to move house 5 times.

    I am kind of resigned to it all I'm afraid. Short of actually packing in the company there is nothing I can do to avoid these huge tax hikes (the expenses tax alone will be around £14K extra next year on top of the changes to dividend and insurance tax) so it is just a case of lump it. But it hardly makes me feel of this government as being friendly to small businesses.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    It would appear that by voting 'No', the Greeks have got themselves better terms. As anyone sensible predicted. And we must do the same, even if we want to stay in.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    That does seem to be particularly crass. Subsistence you can just about make a case for (you have to eat so a tax-free meal IS kind of a perk) but tax on your travel cost is just insane. I wonder how much they are going to say a trip on a chopper to a rig is costed at each time for example?

    Worth lobbying your MP about I'd say.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Odd article.

    Given that Osborne is on record saying that he was expecting a coalition, the limited moves on low pay can be seen in that context.

    It was not restraint, at best it was tactics.

    I'm a bit worried that thus surprise election result has gone to some Tory heads. Reminiscent of some Labour folk post 2005.

    I think you are wrong. Most Tories are probably very glad that after 5 yrs of hard slog and with more to do that the electorate was sensible enough to ;-
    a) make sure a terrible opposition was not allowed to win and
    b) that as a consequence of that the Tories get 5 more years.
    Undoubtedly there is lots of fun looking at the election for new Labour leader from the poor list of candidates, and much amusement at Osborne parking his tanks on Labour's lawn.

    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.
    Well David is talking about the 2030s. We have no idea what politics will look like 15-25 years from now. 10 years is an impossibly long time frame. Just reflect on the change 2005-2015 or 1987-1997.

    You are right about events. It is sobering to think that the single defining event of 13 new Labour years had yet to happen at this same stage in the second term. An event no government could control.
    Maybe. But the 2015 win does feel somewhat like 1983 - that had 14 more years of Tory rule ahead of it. Even if the "Falklands factor" this time around was offered up by Labour in the shape of Ed "Menendez" Miliband and Alex "Galtieri" Salmond....
    We really had more than 14 years. Blair and Brown felt it necessary to sign up to the Tory settlement in order to win in 1997: keep the spending program, no reversals of privatisations or union law and the like. It was only after 2001 that they had the confidence to shift the political basis of the country. There had, admittedly been a lot of constitutional stuff in the first term but the political centre ground is defined in social and economic terms.

    I'm not suggesting that the Tories will govern into the 2030s. What I am suggesting is that this Wednesday's budget was the first really decisive step in the attempt to define a new consensus that will last into that decade.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    That's where we are now and from now on its events dear boy events. Labour are at present in no position to win in 2020. They have a lot to do and economic credibility once lost is not regained overnight.

    I think that's the key point.

    The Tories economic credibility was destroyed in 1992 with the ERM debacle. Arguably that wasn't particularly their fault - there were good arguments for and against joining the ERM and they made a reasonable choice. Nonetheless, the ludicrous events of Black Wednesday were seared on the memories of a generation.

    The electorate weren't willing to listen to the Tories for 18 years - and even then only in coalition. Of course, in part, this was down to Blair seizing the centre ground, but economic credibility had a big part to play as well.

    I think that's what Osborne's up to: Labour's economic credibility has been obliterated (fairly or not) by the Tories' groundwork plus *that* answer on QT. Osborne has taken hold of the centre ground with the Budget. He's not aiming at winning in 2020. He wants 2015 to be Tories' 1997 - he wants to win in 2020, 2025 and (if he can) 2030 as well...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2015

    It is possible that Cameron might decide to stay on if the party persuaded him to do so. I think its more than likely that he will have second thoughts.

    I'd had the same thought, but I'm not sure he would be allowed to have second thoughts. Even if Osborne would be happy to remain in a subordinate roll, I feel like Boris and the euroskeptic serial rebels would have a fit and do whatever it took to disrupt the party, even if it damaged their chances in 2020.
    Mortimer said:

    I've said it before, the quiet calm middle rankers become Tory leaders. Jeremy Hunt - the perfectly likeable front man for Osbornomic's second decade.

    Who was it that said Osborne should have been replaced by Hammond in early 2010?

    It's funny you mention Hunt, AsI was going to mention him as one of the MPs with an even more punchable face, with Gove at the top. Though Hunt is otherwise unobjectionable I think.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    That does seem to be particularly crass. Subsistence you can just about make a case for (you have to eat so a tax-free meal IS kind of a perk) but tax on your travel cost is just insane. I wonder how much they are going to say a trip on a chopper to a rig is costed at each time for example?

    Worth lobbying your MP about I'd say.
    Its not yet as bad as Norway. Over there they tax you on your room and board on the rig at around £11 a night. (tax not the value of the room and food). This always 'amuses' us as the tax is more than the oil company actually pays the catering company to provide the food.

    Given that you cannot exactly take out your own food (it is banned) it is effectively just another bit of employment tax - as is the new tax over here.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    People can live on the living wage. They may have to trim a little bit, but a £9.20 hour wage is a decent amount of money - for those on 40 hours a week.

    For people who work 16 hours and claim benefits it will be harder. But there are jobs available should they wish to increase their hours to compensate.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    I do get fed up with all the criticism here of the 'rich' being tax dodgers and greedy parasites. I dare say it is as valid as the notion that everyone on welfare is an idle and feckless scrounger. What Osborne has done is to shift the balance so that overall the emphasis is on work and hopefully better pay rather than benefit top-ups. If it works it will be good for everyone and it is a better approach than we had before. At the end of the day those who have to pay for benefits through taxes deserve a hearing as well. Mostly they're not all that rich - but rather, hard-working, thrifty people who sacrificed immediate gratification to fund a modest competence when older. I come from such a family and the habits of my parents were instilled into me and my siblings. I suspect we form the core of the Tory vote.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    I haven't read the small print, but is that for expenses reimbursed by the client, or operating expenses that a freelancer takes on as part of the business?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Charles said:

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    People can live on the living wage. They may have to trim a little bit, but a £9.20 hour wage is a decent amount of money - for those on 40 hours a week.

    For people who work 16 hours and claim benefits it will be harder. But there are jobs available should they wish to increase their hours to compensate.
    For the latter group life should be harder. 16 hours is not enough work to then expect those who work harder to 'top up'.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706



    We really had more than 14 years. Blair and Brown felt it necessary to sign up to the Tory settlement in order to win in 1997: keep the spending program, no reversals of privatisations or union law and the like. It was only after 2001 that they had the confidence to shift the political basis of the country. There had, admittedly been a lot of constitutional stuff in the first term but the political centre ground is defined in social and economic terms.

    I'm not suggesting that the Tories will govern into the 2030s. What I am suggesting is that this Wednesday's budget was the first really decisive step in the attempt to define a new consensus that will last into that decade.

    All govts are influenced by their predecessors and the oppositions they face. Arguably what you saw this week is that the Tories are still reacting to New Labour.



  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690
    Charles said:

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    I haven't read the small print, but is that for expenses reimbursed by the client, or operating expenses that a freelancer takes on as part of the business?
    Expenses reimbursed by the client.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Greatest PM, Churchill, of course.
    Greatest FM, Palmerston.
    Greatest Home Secretary, Rab Butler, maybe.
    Greatest Chancellor, Osborne.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    FPT The reason Hove was a Labour gain (apart, I'm sure, from favourable demographic change) was that the incumbent Conservative MP stood down in order to fight cancer.

    Hove (like Brighton) has moved a very long way to the Left over 30 years.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    That does seem to be particularly crass. Subsistence you can just about make a case for (you have to eat so a tax-free meal IS kind of a perk) but tax on your travel cost is just insane. I wonder how much they are going to say a trip on a chopper to a rig is costed at each time for example?

    Worth lobbying your MP about I'd say.
    Its not yet as bad as Norway. Over there they tax you on your room and board on the rig at around £11 a night. (tax not the value of the room and food). This always 'amuses' us as the tax is more than the oil company actually pays the catering company to provide the food.

    Given that you cannot exactly take out your own food (it is banned) it is effectively just another bit of employment tax - as is the new tax over here.
    That change does sound bonkers to me.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    felix said:

    Charles said:

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    People can live on the living wage. They may have to trim a little bit, but a £9.20 hour wage is a decent amount of money - for those on 40 hours a week.

    For people who work 16 hours and claim benefits it will be harder. But there are jobs available should they wish to increase their hours to compensate.
    For the latter group life should be harder. 16 hours is not enough work to then expect those who work harder to 'top up'.
    The DWP sign off people once they've found 16 hours/week of work. And equating "longer" with "harder" is just ideology.

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    I haven't read the small print, but is that for expenses reimbursed by the client, or operating expenses that a freelancer takes on as part of the business?
    Expenses reimbursed by the client.
    That sucks. I suspect that there were a small number of people abusing it and then some big guys got in on the act. (This is usually what we see - HMRC will tolerate small fry, but once someone does it in scale they close down the loophole fast).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2015

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

    I'm intrigued.

    Can you explain to me in what way I am not honest?

    I work hard and generate significant value for my clients. As a result, they are willing to pay market fees to my employer who rewards me with a salary that is above your threshold.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

    Am I reading that right in that you Are you saying no job is worth 100,000 a year, if it is not possible to 'earn' that in an honest fashion?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Charles said:

    For me (and for any other contractor works away from home on a regular basis) the budget was pretty much a disaster.

    In the fine print is the proposal to tax all travelling expenses and subsistence payments from next April. I spend around 220-240 nights a year away from home in a variety of locations and until now as long as I was not more than 24 months in any one location I could get expenses paid tax free. Now apparently spending 220 nights a year away from my wife and kids for my work is going to be considered a perk and I will be taxed on it at the higher rate of tax.

    Rather miffed on a personal level at the moment.

    I haven't read the small print, but is that for expenses reimbursed by the client, or operating expenses that a freelancer takes on as part of the business?
    Expenses reimbursed by the client.
    Thats an absolutely bonkers proposal. I'm an employee but have to travel a lot - if I had to pay tax to stay in hotels the other side of the world from my family, I'd be tempted just to take a lower paying job at home. I thought the government was trying to support entreprise.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    2030 is some time away and the global scenario could be very different.

    Will the EU be there in its present form - very likely not as it implodes under disagreements due to having expanded too rapidly.
    China could well own many of the larger European companies.
    There may well be a form of Islam/Christian war that envelopes the Med, Middle East, Africa and parts of Asia.
    There might even be a Sino/Japanese/Russian war as China seeks to expand to feed its population.



  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited July 2015

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

    Preposterous.
    In your totalitarian world, is it possible to earn a five-figure salary( pounds, dollars, euros, I assume) honestly?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    Are we now at peak Tory hubris?

    The budget was framed as a payrise for all. If the IFS is correct millions of working families will be worse off. Seeking to depict them as scroungers and sneering about "prizes for all" is not the way to sell what the Tories cheered last Wednesday. Experience trumps rhetoric, and if enough voters are adversely affected by the consequences of the cuts the Tories will be in trouble. Clearly, Osborne's gamble is that he has done enough to keep the 37% of voters who voted Tory onside and that Labour will not attract enough of the remaining 63% to do much about it. He could well be right. But I would not bet my house on it. Events, dear boy, events.

    It's worth noting that Osborne did not talk about a minimum wage, he talked about a Living Wage. In not using that term in his article David is implicitly accepting that could well have been a significant mistake. A living wage is one you can live on. That is what voters will now expect.

    People can live on the living wage. They may have to trim a little bit, but a £9.20 hour wage is a decent amount of money - for those on 40 hours a week.

    For people who work 16 hours and claim benefits it will be harder. But there are jobs available should they wish to increase their hours to compensate.
    For the latter group life should be harder. 16 hours is not enough work to then expect those who work harder to 'top up'.
    The DWP sign off people once they've found 16 hours/week of work. And equating "longer" with "harder" is just ideology.

    Longer does not necessarily mean harder, true. But if someone physically can work more than 16 hours a week and the jobs are out there, encouraging them to work more hours seems fair.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Your staff wanted to hurt you? Bizarre. Clearly you were in the wrong job.

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

  • MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    The budget is a disaster who actually anybody who is a fiscal conservative or a libertarian.Unshackled by not being in coalition with the Lib Dems Osborne had the opportunity to either seriously tackle Britain`s huge debt problems or to simplify Britain`s hugely complicated tax/benefits or both.He has done neither and when Britain falls back into into the next recession Osborne will be exposed as one of the worst chancellors ever.The same people cheering him on now are the same who were claiming Gordon Brown walked on on water prior to the financial crisis without actually noticing the Brown had started to believe his own fantasy hype of `no more boom and bust`.If Labour have any brains they will adopt a strategy that the next recession will happen before the 2020 election and if it does Labour will win a landslide victory in 2020.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I must say I've never thought the idea of paying 50% tax was fair, even as an annoying youth. Sure, hated rich people can afford it and I do think people are probably finding ways around paying the amounts They are nominally supposed to, but taking half or more of someone's earnings - whether we think the level of remuneration they are getting is fair or not is another matter - just feels wrong.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    If you are going to insist on inventing pretendy quotes at least try to make them sound vaguely as though they came from an actual human being.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    We really need to move to gender blind sexual assault laws, as Canada has done.

    http://i.imgur.com/cIiJ1Sy.jpg
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    The ability to create wealth will be even more vital in this century - perhaps Labour still has not realised that to spend wealth, you have first to create it. Is it still planting orchards of magic money trees?

    Re: Laour leadership: If Liz K fails, will she link with fellow thinkers like Frank Field and Kate Hooey to form a critical thorn in the opposition's side?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Plato said:

    Your staff wanted to hurt you? Bizarre. Clearly you were in the wrong job.

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.


    Sounds like he was a lousy boss and retirement has not improved him.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    GeoffM said:

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    If you are going to insist on inventing pretendy quotes at least try to make them sound vaguely as though they came from an actual human being.
    Pretendy or not what is inhuman about those quotes? I wouldn't be surprised to hear them verbatim in the QT audience or something.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Jonathan said:



    We really had more than 14 years. Blair and Brown felt it necessary to sign up to the Tory settlement in order to win in 1997: keep the spending program, no reversals of privatisations or union law and the like. It was only after 2001 that they had the confidence to shift the political basis of the country. There had, admittedly been a lot of constitutional stuff in the first term but the political centre ground is defined in social and economic terms.

    I'm not suggesting that the Tories will govern into the 2030s. What I am suggesting is that this Wednesday's budget was the first really decisive step in the attempt to define a new consensus that will last into that decade.

    All govts are influenced by their predecessors and the oppositions they face. Arguably what you saw this week is that the Tories are still reacting to New Labour.
    In a sense that's true. But then New Labour accepted the economic settlement of the Thatcher / Major years in totality. To get there, however, means rolling back the Brown years and initiatives.

    As I said in the intro, in line with classic Conservative thinking, there's been a reappraisal of Labour's 2001-10 settlement and which bits can be incorporated into a new Tory consensus. The minimum wage - a concept the Tories were initially sceptical of - has been seen to have an important role to play in incentivising the working poor and as a self-earned means out of (or first step out of) poverty. And people who earn way beyond the minimum wage will see that as a much fairer mechanism than simply spraying money about.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Plato said:

    Your staff wanted to hurt you? Bizarre. Clearly you were in the wrong job.

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.

    I was. In some cases they were black and I was (and am) white, another one I recall was just sociopathic (he was wished on me when the GLC was scrapped). I hope things have changed, but there used to be a lot of people in the public sector who were pretty weird - I also recall two women almost fighting over their respective mothering skills :)

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    When Labour put up the rate from 40%, it had a material effect on my motivation to work. I simply thought - nope, not doing that. The balance of earning vs the time out of my life wasn't worth it. So I didn't work the extra hours as the deal didn't work for me.

    I was quite surprised how much impact it had psychologically - and don't find it surprising that many others either scaled back or found ways around it instead.
    kle4 said:

    I must say I've never thought the idea of paying 50% tax was fair, even as an annoying youth. Sure, hated rich people can afford it and I do think people are probably finding ways around paying the amounts They are nominally supposed to, but taking half or more of someone's earnings - whether we think the level of remuneration they are getting is fair or not is another matter - just feels wrong.

  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Financier said:

    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    The ability to create wealth will be even more vital in this century - perhaps Labour still has not realised that to spend wealth, you have first to create it. Is it still planting orchards of magic money trees?

    Re: Laour leadership: If Liz K fails, will she link with fellow thinkers like Frank Field and Kate Hooey to form a critical thorn in the opposition's side?

    Most wealth creators come from families that are well-to-do already. Most Labour MPs don't.

  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    felix said:

    Plato said:

    Your staff wanted to hurt you? Bizarre. Clearly you were in the wrong job.

    Charles said:



    Thank you, SO. I'll just add this: what's the difference between England and Greece? In Greece, everyone avoids 90% of the taxes they should pay; in England only the very rich do so,

    Absolutely untrue.

    A small sub-set of the very rich do so: international non-doms, a number of high profile individuals and some people in finance.

    Those people who I know in that segment of society (who, admittedly, tend to be only very rich as opposed to ludicrously rich) and very willing to make a fair contribution to the costs of running the country.

    FWIW, the two things that upset people most are (i) paying more than 50% of their income in tax - so 47% is viewed as much fairer than 52% and (ii) the withdrawal of the personal allowance for income above £100,000. It may be a relatively small amount for these people - for someone on a £500K income, for instance, it would increase their post tax income from £250K to 255K: nice but not transformational - but psychologically it makes them feel that they are not being treated equally)
    It is not possible to "earn" a six-figure salary honestly. I am retired now, and every day I thank God that I never helped some rich bastard get even richer on the back of my efforts. And, yes, when I was a line manager the majority of my staff wanted to hurt me for being their boss -and rightly so.


    Sounds like he was a lousy boss and retirement has not improved him.

    In innocent abroad's opinion JK Rowling must be an arch criminal.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Financier said:

    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    ...



    Both.

    1. Labour's selection process favours insiders: parliamentary aides, councillors, trade unionists and activists.
    2. The Labour Party under Brown and Miliband did not appear particularly welcoming to the private sector - you can only select from those who come forward.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Liz Kendall thinks that the hard left grew under Ed Miliband:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ba3f3e42-2713-11e5-9c4e-a775d2b173ca.html#axzz3fZTxGLwJ

    The composition of the new intake suggests that she has a point.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    Financier said:

    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    The ability to create wealth will be even more vital in this century - perhaps Labour still has not realised that to spend wealth, you have first to create it. Is it still planting orchards of magic money trees?

    Re: Laour leadership: If Liz K fails, will she link with fellow thinkers like Frank Field and Kate Hooey to form a critical thorn in the opposition's side?

    Most wealth creators come from families that are well-to-do already. Most Labour MPs don't.

    Miliband, Harman, Umunna, Dromey, Straw, Kinnock, are just a few immediate exceptions that spring to mind :)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    kle4 said:

    GeoffM said:

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    If you are going to insist on inventing pretendy quotes at least try to make them sound vaguely as though they came from an actual human being.
    Pretendy or not what is inhuman about those quotes? I wouldn't be surprised to hear them verbatim in the QT audience or something.

    Lol QED.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2015
    Well quite. Rather like...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lzS8yW8INA
    GeoffM said:

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    If you are going to insist on inventing pretendy quotes at least try to make them sound vaguely as though they came from an actual human being.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited July 2015
    Plato said:

    When Labour put up the rate from 40%, it had a material effect on my motivation to work. I simply thought - nope, not doing that. The balance of earning vs the time out of my life wasn't worth it. So I didn't work the extra hours as the deal didn't work for me.

    I was quite surprised how much impact it had psychologically - and don't find it surprising that many others either scaled back or found ways around it instead.

    kle4 said:

    I must say I've never thought the idea of paying 50% tax was fair, even as an annoying youth. Sure, hated rich people can afford it and I do think people are probably finding ways around paying the amounts They are nominally supposed to, but taking half or more of someone's earnings - whether we think the level of remuneration they are getting is fair or not is another matter - just feels wrong.

    I wonder how prevalent that type of reaction might have been, but in truth perhaps it really is a moral issue regardless of economics - and while the rich should pay more, taking half of their money is very harsh . 49%? Idk, maybe. Once past that moral line of imy own making it does become about he economics for me as to which rate would be best.

    I actually don't know how much tax somone in my bracket pays, or what bracket I am in. 30k
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    edited July 2015
    Metatron said:

    The budget is a disaster who actually anybody who is a fiscal conservative or a libertarian.Unshackled by not being in coalition with the Lib Dems Osborne had the opportunity to either seriously tackle Britain`s huge debt problems or to simplify Britain`s hugely complicated tax/benefits or both.He has done neither and when Britain falls back into into the next recession Osborne will be exposed as one of the worst chancellors ever.The same people cheering him on now are the same who were claiming Gordon Brown walked on on water prior to the financial crisis without actually noticing the Brown had started to believe his own fantasy hype of `no more boom and bust`.If Labour have any brains they will adopt a strategy that the next recession will happen before the 2020 election and if it does Labour will win a landslide victory in 2020.

    There is a lot of truth in that, I don't understand the inheritance tax changes.

    Similarly raising the minimum wage without tackling immigration is pointless.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Interesting article here on the differences between the Greek debt crisis and the debt relief that West Germany had in 1953:

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-27/germany-deserved-debt-relief-greece-doesn-t-i5fdca2y

    It cites this academic article from 2004, which is also fascinating reading for those wanting to understand 20th Century history:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=493802

    In short: Germany got a write down of about 50% of its debt, but half of this was pre WW2 (the majority being from the Weimar period including WW1 reparations set by the Versaillies Treaty), and much of the rest was post war assistance under the Marshall plan, being converted from loans to grants, at the request of the creditor, the USA.

    It is also worth noting that the deal incorporated pre war private debt, and also debts of federal states such as Prussia that were no longer in existence, and did not lie within West Germany. It was recognised that as West Germany consisted of little more than half of pre-war Germany that it was unreasonable for West Germany to be responsible for the entirety of pre war German debt. Upon unification In 1990 West Germany issued bonds to pay off the prewar debts of the East Germans.

    All very different to the current Greek negotiations!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    GeoffM said:

    Not sure the Budget is going down that well now the details have sunk in - I'm getting some pretty unhappy feedback about it ("didn't vote for that to be honest", "more Tory than I bargained for actually", "my daughter simply doesn't know how she'll make ends meet now") from people who didn't vote Labour in May. Good sales job on the day, but in the end still the sort of nasty job that Chancellors get out of the way in Year One of a Parliament.

    On the other hand, does anyone *really* think they'd like to punch anyone's face? Perhaps I'm too peaceful...

    If you are going to insist on inventing pretendy quotes at least try to make them sound vaguely as though they came from an actual human being.
    Pretendy or not what is inhuman about those quotes? I wouldn't be surprised to hear them verbatim in the QT audience or something.

    Lol QED.
    The thought had occurred to me with that particular example. But people droning robotically on QT are still real people after all, regrettably, left or right.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Financier said:

    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    The ability to create wealth will be even more vital in this century - perhaps Labour still has not realised that to spend wealth, you have first to create it. Is it still planting orchards of magic money trees?

    Re: Laour leadership: If Liz K fails, will she link with fellow thinkers like Frank Field and Kate Hooey to form a critical thorn in the opposition's side?

    Most wealth creators come from families that are well-to-do already. Most Labour MPs don't.

    That is such complete bollocks but is a fascinating insight into your world view. Is a steelworker not a wealth-creator, or a production line assistant in a biscuit-making factory, or a taxi-driver, or a farmer, or bank counter staff, or a plumber, or people in any one of thousands of roles that contribute usefully either to profitable businesses or to enabling those businesses to run?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. JEO, where's that poster from? It's despicable.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Just a month or so off from EdM and I'd forgotten how nasal his voice is - he's on Sky now talking about miners. Labour really didn't dodge a bullet there.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited July 2015

    Interesting article here on the differences between the Greek debt crisis and the debt relief that West Germany had in 1953:

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-27/germany-deserved-debt-relief-greece-doesn-t-i5fdca2y

    It cites this academic article from 2004, which is also fascinating reading for those wanting to understand 20th Century history:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=493802

    In short: Germany got a write down of about 50% of its debt, but half of this was pre WW2 (the majority being from the Weimar period including WW1 reparations set by the Versaillies Treaty), and much of the rest was post war assistance under the Marshall plan, being converted from loans to grants, at the request of the creditor, the USA.

    It is also worth noting that the deal incorporated pre war private debt, and also debts of federal states such as Prussia that were no longer in existence, and did not lie within West Germany. It was recognised that as West Germany consisted of little more than half of pre-war Germany that it was unreasonable for West Germany to be responsible for the entirety of pre war German debt. Upon unification In 1990 West Germany issued bonds to pay off the prewar debts of the East Germans.

    All very different to the current Greek negotiations!

    So the Germans deserved debt relief after causing WWII and murdering countless innocents but the Greeks don't because a few bankers made some bad investments. You bet.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There's an article from Justin Webb in The Times from a couple of days ago talking about US college campus laws - with consent forms, advice to take photos of them at the time of signature blah blah - yet of course you could still be tiddled and the form could be contested.

    It's beyond ridiculous - campuses everywhere seem to have lost their collective marbles. Some are demanding to be *pre-warned* about course content that could upset or offend them, lecturers accused of racism for asking a student to *speak up more*.

    I'm really glad I'm too old for such things.
    JEO said:

    We really need to move to gender blind sexual assault laws, as Canada has done.

    http://i.imgur.com/cIiJ1Sy.jpg

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Financier said:

    FPTs

    Antifrank's analysis of the new Labour MPs is fascinating - I only found one who has experience of wealth creation.

    So why are Labour still dipping into the same limited pool of potential talent? Is it because others have fallen out of love with Labour or is Labour still thinking in terms of the last century.

    The ability to create wealth will be even more vital in this century - perhaps Labour still has not realised that to spend wealth, you have first to create it. Is it still planting orchards of magic money trees?

    Re: Laour leadership: If Liz K fails, will she link with fellow thinkers like Frank Field and Kate Hooey to form a critical thorn in the opposition's side?

    Most wealth creators come from families that are well-to-do already. Most Labour MPs don't.

    That is such complete bollocks but is a fascinating insight into your world view. Is a steelworker not a wealth-creator, or a production line assistant in a biscuit-making factory, or a taxi-driver, or a farmer, or bank counter staff, or a plumber, or people in any one of thousands of roles that contribute usefully either to profitable businesses or to enabling those businesses to run?
    In my experience most times people praise or criticise 'wealth creators' they are referring to those at the top of the pile, though small business owners may get a look in by those praising.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    I suspect that, like many budgets, good headlines the next day are no guarantee that in a few years time it wont be seen as the start of the rot.

    The attack on tax credits is, in civil service-speak, brave. The problem is that not only are 100,000s, maybe millions, of working people going to be affected, but also that these people do not think tax credits are part of the welfare state. For a start they are run by HMRC not DWP. I suspect that when people voted for further cuts in benefits they did not imagine this would mean them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690

    Interesting article here on the differences between the Greek debt crisis and the debt relief that West Germany had in 1953:

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-27/germany-deserved-debt-relief-greece-doesn-t-i5fdca2y

    It cites this academic article from 2004, which is also fascinating reading for those wanting to understand 20th Century history:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=493802

    In short: Germany got a write down of about 50% of its debt, but half of this was pre WW2 (the majority being from the Weimar period including WW1 reparations set by the Versaillies Treaty), and much of the rest was post war assistance under the Marshall plan, being converted from loans to grants, at the request of the creditor, the USA.

    It is also worth noting that the deal incorporated pre war private debt, and also debts of federal states such as Prussia that were no longer in existence, and did not lie within West Germany. It was recognised that as West Germany consisted of little more than half of pre-war Germany that it was unreasonable for West Germany to be responsible for the entirety of pre war German debt. Upon unification In 1990 West Germany issued bonds to pay off the prewar debts of the East Germans.

    All very different to the current Greek negotiations!

    Desperate wriggling for those trying to defend the indefensible. Whatever the cause (and I find it incredible that you should try to claim that debts incurred through acts of war have more reason to be written down than those through peacetime mismanagement of an economy encouraged by the lender) the bottom line is that Germany had half its legitimate debt forgiven.

    Moreover, and far more significantly for the Greek situation, the debt restructuring under te London Agreement explicitly tied debt repayment to trade surplus and limited repayments to 3% of export value.

    Everyone who actually wants to see this situation resolved properly has accepted that even if Greece abides by every demand of the EU/IMF they will still not be able to pay off the debt. It simply isn't possible. The IMF has finally accepted this in their latest report on Greece and some of the more reasonable members of the Eurozone have been saying this for a long time. Without significant debt relief this is just - as I keep pointing out - a very convoluted can kicking exercise.
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