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  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
    Is Martin out of prison yet?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    matt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunil an explosion of bar charts proving that the UK is right wing!

    The North East, North West, Greater London, Scotland and Wales are leftwing on that graph. The East and West Midlands and Yorkshire and Humber are swing areas, ie they voted for Blair then Cameron. Only the Southeast, Southwest and Eastern areas are truly rightwing ie they even voted for Major in '97 and Hague! NI is also rightwing but it votes for the DUP not the Tories
    And if Burnham was Labour leader, every area would be Conservative-free. Copyright every second slightly hysterical posting from you.
    I never said that at all, even Blair did not make the South or East Anglia conservative free. There is nothing remotely hysterical about pointing out some areas in the UK always vote for rightwing parties, some for leftwing parties, some swing behind whichever party wins the nation as a whole!
    I wonder if 2015 was something of a step-change. It's the first time since 1935 that right wing parties won 50%+ of the UK vote.
    Not really, a few UKIP voters probably even voted for Kinnock in 1992 if they were around and under FPTP that 50% means nothing if UKIP win few seats, indeed if the Tories lose voters to them post EU ref and they split the rightwing vote that could help Labour win back seats they may not otherwise have won
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    rcs1000 said:

    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Omnium said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Grexit:

    It looks like the ECB is maintaining the EUR89bn ELA limit.

    Which means banks won't open tomorrow. Or Wednesday.

    I suspect they will.
    I can't see that they can open.

    They'll reopen when the EU capitulates, or when the new Drachma is announced.

    I don't believe that the Greeks are really prepared for the latter. So EU capitulation is the only option, and that has to be accompanied by 'stormtroopers' - essentially I think that Greece will exit the Euro or never govern itself again.

    If you join a single currency designed to create a political union you lose your sovereignty. It's not as if no-one anywhere in the continent of Europe hasn't made this point. But then there are none so deaf as those that don't want to hear.

    The Greeks - like many other countries - will need to decide whether they value democracy more than being part of the European project.

    To me, it seems a great shame that the way "Europe" has been constructed has led to this sort of choice. Governing on the basis of what you must do for your creditors rather than on the consent of the people is never going to particularly stable or happy, even if it is your own fault you got into the mess in the first place.

    ' A common currency means common government; etc snip.’
    So was there one world government when we were all on the gold standard?
    No, but the gold standard collapsed as it was unsustainable.
    You should read Jim Grant. He argues, persuasively, that all fiat currencies inevitably succumb to destruction by the printing press.

    The QE that we see today in Japan, the UK, etc. Could prove him right.

    (We shall see...)
    Yes we shall indeed see. But when? Inflation is still low. No doubt it will rise and interest rates will rise, to the joy of bank depositors everywhere.
    Its an old argument but is buying back bonds as per QE really printing money? It may be I am not arguing that either way, but it is not helicoptering money down onto the streets. We are not taking wheelbarrows to the cash points.
    What will surely destroy a currency is perpetually spending more than you can ever raise in taxes in the good times.
    Greece and other governments have regularly shown in the past that they have no will to reform when they had less painful options. More fool others for letting them get away with it. All the more reason to support this govt when it has its opportunity to cut its spending to match our willingness to give it taxes.
  • John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    Let's get this straight: whether Greece continues to use the euro or not is up to the Greek government, not the EU. Greece could leave the EU and still use the euro. I am not suggesting that that would be good, but it is an option. Have people forgotten Scotland and sterling?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Barnesian said:

    It is interesting to compare first hand reports from holiday makers and other on the ground in Greece with the pundits.

    Tourist spots aren't indicative of domestic realities.
  • John_NJohn_N Posts: 389

    Inflation is still low. No doubt it will rise and interest rates will rise, to the joy of bank depositors everywhere.

    On accounts at banks that remain solvent, nominal interest rates may rise may but real rates won't, in my opinion.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Speedy said:

    Kendall has 25% , yet she's certain to come last.
    My @Lizforleader obsessed MP thinks she will win.

    Thats a worse prediction than EICIPM
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    Speedy said:

    Kendall has 25% , yet she's certain to come last.
    My @Lizforleader obsessed MP thinks she will win.

    Thats a worse prediction than EICIPM
    No - that was the worst one ever...... :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2015
    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
    Yes, I suppose you encounter all sorts of interesting people at LSE. I think the problem with economics at university is the best brains in the subject all work in the City or become Greek Finance Ministers
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    matt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunil an explosion of bar charts proving that the UK is right wing!

    The North East, North West, Greater London, Scotland and Wales are leftwing on that graph. The East and West Midlands and Yorkshire and Humber are swing areas, ie they voted for Blair then Cameron. Only the Southeast, Southwest and Eastern areas are truly rightwing ie they even voted for Major in '97 and Hague! NI is also rightwing but it votes for the DUP not the Tories
    And if Burnham was Labour leader, every area would be Conservative-free. Copyright every second slightly hysterical posting from you.
    I never said that at all, even Blair did not make the South or East Anglia conservative free. There is nothing remotely hysterical about pointing out some areas in the UK always vote for rightwing parties, some for leftwing parties, some swing behind whichever party wins the nation as a whole!
    I wonder if 2015 was something of a step-change. It's the first time since 1935 that right wing parties won 50%+ of the UK vote.
    Not really, a few UKIP voters probably even voted for Kinnock in 1992 if they were around and under FPTP that 50% means nothing if UKIP win few seats, indeed if the Tories lose voters to them post EU ref and they split the rightwing vote that could help Labour win back seats they may not otherwise have won
    OMG - day after day and week after week all your posts are about how the Tories are going to lose and yet you're not obsessed - no not a bit.
  • John_NJohn_N Posts: 389
    chestnut said:

    Barnesian said:

    It is interesting to compare first hand reports from holiday makers and other on the ground in Greece with the pundits.

    Tourist spots aren't indicative of domestic realities.
    Goodness, chestnut, if that's your attitude I won't be employing you as an intelligence agent! What Greek people have to say on the streets in central Athens or in tourist hotels anywhere in the country, including or even especially when they simplify their views for foreigners, is valuable information and if it isn't part of domestic reality I wonder what you think is.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    felix said:

    Speedy said:

    Kendall has 25% , yet she's certain to come last.
    My @Lizforleader obsessed MP thinks she will win.

    Thats a worse prediction than EICIPM
    No - that was the worst one ever...... :)
    It was wasn't it.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    rcs1000 said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
    Is Martin out of prison yet?
    He came out 4 years ago thank goodness even though bloomberg and much of the financial press ignore him. Google his name and blog. He's very active on his blog right now with some incredibly thought provoking articles.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    valleyboy said:

    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Get Miliband to unresign
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    edited July 2015
    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
    Yes, I suppose you encounter all sorts of interesting people at LSE. I think the problem with economics at university is the best brains in the subject all work in the City or become Greek Finance Ministers
    The academics are so closed to new ideas and really haven't learnt from 2008 let alone the great depression. All the literature from academics focuses on the stock market crash and never mentions all the European sovereign bond defaults after kreditanstalt set off the real downturn in may 1931.Herbert hoover's memoirs are freely available on the Internet. Anyone should read the depression section, especially 1931 when describing the movement of capital as 'like a loose cannon on the deck of a ship in a tossed tempest sea'. Absolutely!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    I suppose there should be some reward if they managed to become the first party to abandon left or right successfully by breaching the third dimension.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.

    4ward.

    Get it right!

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    "Forward, the Light Brigade!"
    Was there a man dismay'd?
    Not tho' the soldier knew
    Someone had blunder'd:
    Theirs not to make reply,
    Theirs not to reason why,
    Theirs but to do and die: </>
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Is this new GE result polling analysis by Survation tonight?
    Daily Record - Exclusive Daily Record Poll shows England voted Cameron into No10 in fear of SNP surge
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2015
    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    As I said earlier the ORB poll a fortnight ago had Burnham with a net favourability of +14%, Kendall +6%, Cooper -6%, Corbyn -15%. That was amongst the public as a whole
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:
    I have a Bill Clinton type story to tell in how he lobbied for Greece to enter the EEC in 1981, it involves him, a famous greek actress, and the Greek PM who sent her to him.

    It lives up to the stereotype of Frenchmen.
    Due to fear of libel, I fear we aren't going to get this story until not only is VGE dead and buried, but the actress in question is also! (The Greek PM involved is dead.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:

    hunchman said:

    HYUFD said:
    His daughter was at the lse whilst I studied there.
    Never knew you mixed in such grand company hunchman
    Mixed with a lot of famous people whilst I was there. Amazing 3 years from that perspective. A shame I couldn't say the same about the way economics was taught at undergraduate level there or economics at universities generally! As Martin Armstrong likes to say 'we've progressed technologically but not economically.
    Yes, I suppose you encounter all sorts of interesting people at LSE. I think the problem with economics at university is the best brains in the subject all work in the City or become Greek Finance Ministers
    The academics are so closed to new ideas and really haven't learnt from 2008 let alone the great depression. All the literature from academics focuses on the stock market crash and never mentions all the European sovereign bond defaults after kreditanstalt set off the real downturn in may 1931.Herbert hoover's memoirs are freely available on the Internet. Anyone should read the depression section, especially 1931 when describing the movement of capital as 'like a loose cannon on the deck of a ship in a tossed tempest sea'. Absolutely!
    Hunchman Yes, most academic economists at university tend to be left-leaning, the more rightleaning ones go into finance or commerce
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    "Forward, the Light Brigade!"
    Was there a man dismay'd?
    Not tho' the soldier knew
    Someone had blunder'd:
    Theirs not to make reply,
    Theirs not to reason why,
    Theirs but to do and die: </>
    A Gove-like choice of poem indeed
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    felix said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    matt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunil an explosion of bar charts proving that the UK is right wing!

    The North East, North West, Greater London, Scotland and Wales are leftwing on that graph. The East and West Midlands and Yorkshire and Humber are swing areas, ie they voted for Blair then Cameron. Only the Southeast, Southwest and Eastern areas are truly rightwing ie they even voted for Major in '97 and Hague! NI is also rightwing but it votes for the DUP not the Tories
    And if Burnham was Labour leader, every area would be Conservative-free. Copyright every second slightly hysterical posting from you.
    I never said that at all, even Blair did not make the South or East Anglia conservative free. There is nothing remotely hysterical about pointing out some areas in the UK always vote for rightwing parties, some for leftwing parties, some swing behind whichever party wins the nation as a whole!
    I wonder if 2015 was something of a step-change. It's the first time since 1935 that right wing parties won 50%+ of the UK vote.
    Not really, a few UKIP voters probably even voted for Kinnock in 1992 if they were around and under FPTP that 50% means nothing if UKIP win few seats, indeed if the Tories lose voters to them post EU ref and they split the rightwing vote that could help Labour win back seats they may not otherwise have won
    OMG - day after day and week after week all your posts are about how the Tories are going to lose and yet you're not obsessed - no not a bit.
    No, I have not said the Tories are going to lose (in fact it may surprise you to know I even stood as a Tory council candidate at university, getting the most votes of the 3 Tory candidates who stood). This is a betting site however and I put my objective hat on to decide who I think has the best chance to win, what policies offer the best chance for each party to win and which leaders offer the best chance to win. The fact you cannot think outside your partisan box is your issue not mine!
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    HYUFD said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    As I said earlier the ORB poll a fortnight ago had Burnham with a net favourability of +14%, Kendall +6%, Cooper -6%, Corbyn -15%. That was amongst the public as a whole
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html
    ABICIPM?
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    kle4 said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    I suppose there should be some reward if they managed to become the first party to abandon left or right successfully by breaching the third dimension.
    Or even the fourth wall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    fitalass said:

    Is this new GE result polling analysis by Survation tonight?
    Daily Record - Exclusive Daily Record Poll shows England voted Cameron into No10 in fear of SNP surge

    Interesting, that is a recontact by Survation of those they polled during the campaign and shows the effectiveness of the their campaign regarding an Labour-SNP pact. The Tories retained 87% of their voters, UKIP only 82% (7% switching to the Tories), LDs 73% of their supporters (6% voted Tory), Labour 84% of their supporters (5% voted Tory)
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Speedy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Surely Greece will have to start firing up the printing presses soon and launch their own "parallel currency" even if they don't formally leave the Euro?

    I'll be surprised if they did, only Tsipras can give the order and he's ideologically committed to europe, though I don't think he's prepared to die for the sake of it.

    Anyway after the haircut by the ECB it means even in the case of a deal the greek banks can only have a maximum of another 12 billion euros in cash, so the greek banking system will probably cease to exist even in the case of a deal.
    Let's hope Tsipras has really changed his mind and is preparing for the inevitable grexit.
    The appointment of Tsakalotos to replace Varoufakis might indicate a hardening of attitudes against Eurozone membership as he is apparently far more sceptical of the benefits of the EU than his predecessor.
    Nothing is going to end up being beneficial to the Greeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    notme said:

    HYUFD said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    As I said earlier the ORB poll a fortnight ago had Burnham with a net favourability of +14%, Kendall +6%, Cooper -6%, Corbyn -15%. That was amongst the public as a whole
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-andy-burnham-considered-the-contender-most-likely-to-improve-partys-general-election-chances-10340208.html
    ABICIPM?
    First he needs to ensure ABICILL
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    I think in European terms because they are both in the Eurozone that is correct, in global terms Cameron may have the edge over Hollande, agreed. On the economic and cultural point you are correct. Given our present defence cuts and the fact France is taking more of a lead in the campaign against ISIS while we have to share their aircraft carriers on the military point perhaps less so
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    "Forward, the Light Brigade!"
    Was there a man dismay'd?
    Not tho' the soldier knew
    Someone had blunder'd:
    Theirs not to make reply,
    Theirs not to reason why,
    Theirs but to do and die: </>
    A Gove-like choice of poem indeed
    Inspired by watching Erroll Flynn and Olivia de Havilland prancing around India over the weekend.

    This would have been the Gove-like choice:

    Then spake Sir Richard Grenville: “I know you are no coward;
    You fly them for a moment to fight with them again.
    But I’ve ninety men and more that are lying sick ashore.
    I should count myself the coward if I left them, my Lord Howard,
    To these Inquisition dogs and the devildoms of Spain.”


    http://www.bartleby.com/42/646.html
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/does-anybody-still-believe-that-the-eu-is-a-benign-institution/

    In my view, this captures all the concerns I have about the EU and the EZ in particular. Essentially, it's great if you're Germany or very like Germany. Everyone else is on the road to ruin, just at different rates.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    But Hollande gets bonus points for being a leftie
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    John_N said:

    Goodness, chestnut, if that's your attitude I won't be employing you as an intelligence agent! What Greek people have to say on the streets in central Athens or in tourist hotels anywhere in the country, including or even especially when they simplify their views for foreigners, is valuable information and if it isn't part of domestic reality I wonder what you think is.

    I always judge the state of the British economy by ice creams sales outside Buckingham palace.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    I would have thought France had a more powerful military - on paper at least - than the UK.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Merkel redefines sovereignty:

    "This is about democracy. We have a common sovereignty that we share, we have a common currency that want to keep, which is why everyone must assume his responsibilities so we can show solidarity"

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,307
    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
    One advantage Hollande does have over Merkel is France is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. That means France still has a veto of key international foreign policy along with the US, Russia, China and the UK that Germany does not
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,307
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    I would have thought France had a more powerful military - on paper at least - than the UK.
    I said "probably" as it is debatable, and depends on how you rate nukes over ships over manpower etc. But the UK's military spending is bigger than France's.

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.asp
    The one thing France did have that we lacked in the aftermath of Suez was an independent strategic vision. The assumptions made by both the British and French at that time have now gone past their sell-by date and we both need to think afresh about our futures.
  • DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    This is excellent, Mike. Before the election, I didn't meet anybody in the Tory party who thought Conservatives would get a majority. Jack W's ARSE of 304 was essentially what I was being told. 290 to 304 was where we were at. in the last few days as we were pulled out of labour marginals and into Lib Dem seats, perhaps there was a change that was not communicated. However, since election, I have met loads of people who claim a majority was nailed on. B*ll*cks I say. There was a small swing to Labour, but they piled up votes in the wrong places.

    So, as for Mayor of London, if Tories are to win, they will need a reversal of the GE votes of about 7% I believe. I hope that is true, but we will see.
  • valleyboyvalleyboy Posts: 606
    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    I want us to go forward and I will lead the charge but I don't want my head blown off with the wrong leader and policies. I have yet to hear stuff from any of the 4 that convinces me that Labour knows where it is going.Hopefully that will change, sooner rather than later.
  • DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Speedy said:

    Kendall has 25% , yet she's certain to come last.
    Corbyn has to be the value bet. Ahead on Twitter, Union backing, distinct positioning. He's got a chance
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    LABOUR leadership hopeful Liz Kendall has promised to punch the last surviving British coal miner hard in the face.

    The punch, which will take place in front of the media at the site of Woolley Colliery in Barnsley later today, is Kendall’s attempt to outflank her rivals on the right.

    Kendall said: “This miner, who lives in a terraced home on benefits and doesn’t even own a car, represents everything that Labour needs to leave behind.

    “He worked down the mines for more than 40 years and never invested in the property market, never started his own business, no aspiration whatsoever.

    “It will be my pleasure to deck him.”

    Once Kendall has punched 62-year-old Roy Hobbs, she will confiscate the instruments of the Woolley Colliery Brass Band and melt them down to make a statue of Alistair Campbell.

    Hobbs said: “She’s Labour, so I’m sure it’s for the best.”
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/liz-kendall-to-punch-uks-last-coal-miner-2015052298524
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    valleyboy said:

    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    I want us to go forward and I will lead the charge but I don't want my head blown off with the wrong leader and policies. I have yet to hear stuff from any of the 4 that convinces me that Labour knows where it is going.Hopefully that will change, sooner rather than later.
    Labour's ideal leader would be one who can win both floating voters in England and appeal to voters in Scotland and its core, not either but both. It is a huge challenge but of the 4 I think Burnham best fits the bill
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    China's big problem is that their working-age population is in decline, unlike the US, Canada, Australia, UK, etc.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Back from the LD hustings in Nottingham. 290 in the audience with all ages represented, and an inevitable sprinkling of beards and sandals.

    Both Lamb and Farron were heavily applauded. The Farron support was louder but I think the more muted applause for Lamb was more widespread. Lamb was first to be approached for selfies, but left first and Farron was working the crowd longer. In terms of policy, or strategy there was little to choose between them. So on the betting front I think a narrow Farron victory.

    My vote however will go to Lamb. Farrons answers were rather playing to the gallery and too broadbrsh. Lamb was better at arguing a case and had clearly thought through his ideas more thoroughly. It is possible that he will win.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
    To be honest they are all severely diminished. Merkel included. Even as we laud Germany their economy is stagnating, their population declining, their language goes unlearned abroad, they have zero cultural influence. Who reads German novels or watches German TV or movies, or listens to German music, apart from Germans?

    Berlin < Paris < London.......

    This Western decline extends across the Atlantic. Obama's impotence in Asia and Arabia is striking. Where previous presidents would have strutted, he frets. It's the visible symptom of a deeper ague, the end of American hegemony as China overtakes the USA in economic power.

    Germany's population decline was a consequence of it absorbing the infertile East. And, in the last two years, it has reversed (see: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/population). Still, it's staggering that Germany's TFR is so low - 1.4 against 1.9 for the UK.

    Intriguingly, some of the most successful countries in the world have the worst demographics:

    China's true TFR is probably 1.6
    Germany is 1.4
    Japan is 1.4
    Korea is 1.3
    Singapore is 1.3
    Taiwan is just 1.1

    The only places with decent TFRs (1.8+) are the UK, the US and France.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
    To be honest they are all severely diminished. Merkel included. Even as we laud Germany their economy is stagnating, their population declining, their language goes unlearned abroad, they have zero cultural influence. Who reads German novels or watches German TV or movies, or listens to German music, apart from Germans?

    Berlin < Paris < London.......

    This Western decline extends across the Atlantic. Obama's impotence in Asia and Arabia is striking. Where previous presidents would have strutted, he frets. It's the visible symptom of a deeper ague, the end of American hegemony as China overtakes the USA in economic power.

    Germany's population decline was a consequence of it absorbing the infertile East. And, in the last two years, it has reversed (see: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/population). Still, it's staggering that Germany's TFR is so low - 1.4 against 1.9 for the UK.

    Intriguingly, some of the most successful countries in the world have the worst demographics:

    China's true TFR is probably 1.6
    Germany is 1.4
    Japan is 1.4
    Korea is 1.3
    Singapore is 1.3
    Taiwan is just 1.1

    The only places with decent TFRs (1.8+) are the UK, the US and France.
    Those are the children of migrants, disproportionally.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
    To be honest they are all severely diminished. Merkel included. Even as we laud Germany their economy is stagnating, their population declining, their language goes unlearned abroad, they have zero cultural influence. Who reads German novels or watches German TV or movies, or listens to German music, apart from Germans?

    Berlin < Paris < London.......

    This Western decline extends across the Atlantic. Obama's impotence in Asia and Arabia is striking. Where previous presidents would have strutted, he frets. It's the visible symptom of a deeper ague, the end of American hegemony as China overtakes the USA in economic power.

    Germany's population decline was a consequence of it absorbing the infertile East. And, in the last two years, it has reversed (see: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/population). Still, it's staggering that Germany's TFR is so low - 1.4 against 1.9 for the UK.

    Intriguingly, some of the most successful countries in the world have the worst demographics:

    China's true TFR is probably 1.6
    Germany is 1.4
    Japan is 1.4
    Korea is 1.3
    Singapore is 1.3
    Taiwan is just 1.1

    The only places with decent TFRs (1.8+) are the UK, the US and France.
    That chart on Germany's population increasing, is quite interesting given that the Telegraph was keen to tell us 'Germany dominance over' when the low birth rate figures were released.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Danny565 said:

    LABOUR leadership hopeful Liz Kendall has promised to punch the last surviving British coal miner hard in the face.

    The punch, which will take place in front of the media at the site of Woolley Colliery in Barnsley later today, is Kendall’s attempt to outflank her rivals on the right.

    Kendall said: “This miner, who lives in a terraced home on benefits and doesn’t even own a car, represents everything that Labour needs to leave behind.

    “He worked down the mines for more than 40 years and never invested in the property market, never started his own business, no aspiration whatsoever.

    “It will be my pleasure to deck him.”

    Once Kendall has punched 62-year-old Roy Hobbs, she will confiscate the instruments of the Woolley Colliery Brass Band and melt them down to make a statue of Alistair Campbell.

    Hobbs said: “She’s Labour, so I’m sure it’s for the best.”
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/liz-kendall-to-punch-uks-last-coal-miner-2015052298524

    I wouldn't put it past her
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2015

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    Post scriptum

    The days of BBC fatcats on huge salaries and gold plated pensions are coming to an end. Next stop is MP's pensions that cannot be justified.

    That said, the days of the blatant lefty comments "If we win the election" (Jim Naughtie to Ed Balls) and the deliberate (IMHO ) reference to Jeremy Hunt as Jeremy C*** need more forceful dealing with than a schoolboy snigger.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I wonder how many Greeks have quietly slipped into the UK in recent months, quickly converting their Euros to pounds at Marks & Spencer exchange booths?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    China's big problem is that their working-age population is in decline, unlike the US, Canada, Australia, UK, etc.


    An optical illusion, given that 620 MILLION Chinese (i.e. a population much larger than all of North America combined) still live in the countryside, and are waiting to join the industrial revolution.

    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.RUR.TOTL

    China faces a demographic crunch (as does the USA, by the way) but it won't be a major obstacle to economic growth for some time yet.
    I read a research report - from CLSA, I think - that said that the urbanisation rate for the under 45s was 67%, and for the over 45s, 39%.

    Which would suggest there is less benefit from countryside -> city was smaller than you might think. I will dig it out and email it to you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    I would have thought France had a more powerful military - on paper at least - than the UK.
    I said "probably" as it is debatable, and depends on how you rate nukes over ships over manpower etc. But the UK's military spending is bigger than France's.

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.asp
    Don't forget that a lot of our money is spent on aircraft carriers with no planes...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2015
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis.

    It's striking how much the standing of the French President has diminished in recent years. In the days of Chirac and Schroeder the French leader was clearly the more imposing figure internationally. Now it sometimes seems as though Hollande is just there for show when Merkel doesn't want Germany to be seen to be acting alone.
    To be honest they are all severely diminished. Merkel included. Even as we laud Germany their economy is stagnating, their population declining, their language goes unlearned abroad, they have zero cultural influence. Who reads German novels or watches German TV or movies, or listens to German music, apart from Germans?

    Berlin < Paris < London.......

    This Western decline extends across the Atlantic. Obama's impotence in Asia and Arabia is striking. Where previous presidents would have strutted, he frets. It's the visible symptom of a deeper ague, the end of American hegemony as China overtakes the USA in economic power.


    China will be number 1 on gdp terms and the US will fall to no 2, but in cultural terms I cannot see people watching Chinese films more than they do those from Hollywood or listening to Chinese pop music in great numbers and London and New York, not Shanghai, Beijing or Hing Kong are likely to be the main Alpha world cities for some time to come. In terms of international relations, until China starts leading the international response to ISIS, Russia-Ukraine etc rather than just focusing on its own borders it is the White House not the Zhongnanhai who has most influence on foreign policy
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    They like to think they do.. the time is coming when not only the UK but other countries will have had enough of EU "management"

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Happy days.

    Is jack w keynote speaker?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,307
    SeanT said:

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.

    When they elect people like Berlusconi they don't merely tolerate it; they encourage it.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.
    So one more heave without any change in policies?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
    If you really believe that, then vote to stay in. After all if it is a trading bloc that you want...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited July 2015
    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    Possibly true, but who cares. I'm a Brit and we're semi-detached from the EU nightmare.

    However I'd find this supremely irritating if I was Italian. Italy is one of the great and grand nations of Europe, with a GDP not so much smaller than France's, and a more important and eloquent history than either France or Germany.

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.
    Probably because Italians have a more beautiful country, better weather and better food, more charm and better love lives and more close-knit families, better things to do with their time than bossing the rest of the EU around
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
    If you really believe that, then vote to stay in. After all if it is a trading bloc that you want...
    I have already made it clear that it is what I intend to do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Interesting item on Newsnight now on Labour's 1945 victory and its legacy for Labour now, interviews with Healey, Mandelson, Beckett amongst others
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    They like to think they do.. the time is coming when not only the UK but other countries will have had enough of EU "management"

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
    I am more sceptical of the UK's willingness to do that. Cameron is trying his hardest but seems to have gone a bit native at EU summits. After.once being a hard nosed eurosceptic, the noises being made are more mixed these days. I am hoping he is just doing this to lower expectations so he can surpass them. However, the skewing of the referendum by using taxpayer money on one side is not promising.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
    If you really believe that, then vote to stay in. After all if it is a trading bloc that you want...
    I have already made it clear that it is what I intend to do.
    Excellent!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    SeanT said:

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.

    When they elect people like Berlusconi they don't merely tolerate it; they encourage it.
    This was exactly what I was thinking. How on earth could that man be elected THREE times?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    SeanT said:

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.

    When they elect people like Berlusconi they don't merely tolerate it; they encourage it.
    This was exactly what I was thinking. How on earth could that man be elected THREE times?
    I thought he was rather good. I'd have definitely voted for him - probably joined the party.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    Possibly true, but who cares. I'm a Brit and we're semi-detached from the EU nightmare.

    However I'd find this supremely irritating if I was Italian. Italy is one of the great and grand nations of Europe, with a GDP not so much smaller than France's, and a more important and eloquent history than either France or Germany.

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.
    Probably because Italians have a more beautiful country, better weather and better food, more charm and better love lives and more close-knit families, better things to do with their time than bossing the rest of the EU around
    Hm. I put precisely that argument to the Italians I met on my recent trip across Friuli. It got short shrift.

    The Italians (at least in the north) are beginning to chafe under the EU bridle, I suspect. The Dolce Vita doesn't seem so Dolce any more.
    The Italians have certainly been more conciliatory to Greece than the Germans, I think the Eurozone may be beginning to split on Northern Europe v Southern Europe lines
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,571
    SeanT said:



    To be honest they are all severely diminished. Merkel included. Even as we laud Germany their economy is stagnating, their population declining, their language goes unlearned abroad, they have zero cultural influence. Who reads German novels or watches German TV or movies, or listens to German music, apart from Germans?

    Berlin < Paris < London.......

    This Western decline extends across the Atlantic. Obama's impotence in Asia and Arabia is striking. Where previous presidents would have strutted, he frets. It's the visible symptom of a deeper ague, the end of American hegemony as China overtakes the USA in economic power.


    Personally I think German TV is markedly better than ours, especially for serious stuff, but then I like Radio 4 better than any other radio channel, so I've got odd tastes. Do you actually see it much, or are you simply going by the fact that you don't come across it? I'd give you that their actual penetration of non-German-speaking markets is negligble.

    On topic, I agree with Danny downthread - it's just odd that Liz Kendall isn't making some leftish gestures to reassure the pragmatists: lots of members are up for choosing someone who might have non-standard views but could win, but they'd like some hints that she's on our side really.

    Still undecided personally.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    @SeanT

    On a more important matter, I have to report on the Book Club's verdict, from deepest Sussex, on The Ice Twins. (Steel yourself. Pour yourself a stiff drink.)

    Now, as it happens, I was the most complimentary about it, with some reservations which I'll mention in a mo'. The group verdict however was, how shall I put this delicately, not enthusiastic. The book was even less well received than The Handmaid's Tale, hitherto the gold standard for disappointment. Our most implacable and stern member thought it 'excruciating', although to be fair it's rather unusual for him to like anything other than Dickens or George Eliot. He took particular exception to your mangling of proper grammar and sentence structure (or lack thereof). Our feminist-leaning member thought it a disgrace, a classic case of a man trying and failing to get inside the mind of a woman (though to put this in perspective you need to adjust for the fact that this lady didn't like The Leopard on the grounds that it was too paternalistic - a criticism which I thought odd given that it is set in nineteenth century Sicily). More disappointingly, the book didn't get much approval from our more broad-minded members either.

    I think my fellow book-club members were being a bit unfair, judging it according to criteria which don't really apply to a book like this. My view was:

    - A very good plot
    - Good sense of place and atmosphere in Torran
    - On the downside, I thought the writing was rushed. That helped give a sense of urgency, but all the same a bit of revising could have made it sharper and richer.
    - I thought there were three weak points in the structure. Firstly, when they get to the island, you could have changed pace and gone for a more elegiac tone as they get to know the island, giving a false sense of hope and building the tension up gradually again (Sonata form, don't you know?). Secondly the second funeral should have been cut - just silly. And thirdly, I didn't like the flat and rather mawkish ending (the final chapter).

    In fact, because I didn't like the final chapter, I've written a replacement for you. I'll post you a link.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU

    You don't need UKIP, its going to unravel as sure as eggs are eggs.
    It will end up as a trading block and no more, as it should have been in the first place.,
    If you really believe that, then vote to stay in. After all if it is a trading bloc that you want...
    NAFTA is a much better option if we really must insist on joining something.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    SeanT said:

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.

    When they elect people like Berlusconi they don't merely tolerate it; they encourage it.
    This was exactly what I was thinking. How on earth could that man be elected THREE times?
    He is rich and likes to spend it, hosts bunga-bunga parties and owns a football club. Italian men rather like all of that, and it seems women do too!
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    SeanT,

    We're not detached enough as yet. Our trade is still distorted towards these weak markets (until and if the US trade agreement goes through), freedom of movement means we will be exposed to passports being given out to migrants from the Middle East and North Africa (until and if we get immigration limits, and troublesome regulation could still harm the economy and the City (until and if we get opt outs, vetoes or a red card system). Cameron has bucked expectations before and he can do again, as long as he doesn't go native.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many Greeks have quietly slipped into the UK in recent months, quickly converting their Euros to pounds at Marks & Spencer exchange booths?

    On a previous thread I mentioned the increase in job applications in my area and my industry from Greeks in the last few months. @foxinsoxuk said that he'd seen a similar trend.

    Well, the extended family of my new Greek developer chappy are now in town "visiting". I've taken three of them to Companies House this week and it's only the first few minutes of Tuesday so far. They are setting up as sole-traders and trying to open up bank accounts.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    @GeoffM Can I just ask....why you like him?

    @foxinsoxuk I understand why Italian men might like it, but not why Italian women do. He comes across as completely sleazy, pervy a bit of joke, and for that matter someone who tells terrible jokes too. I got the feeling hardly anyone throughout Europe took him seriously. As for AC Milan; well in recent years he's hardly been great at running it. I think his daughter Barbara now runs affairs there, but that's by the by....
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    Possibly true, but who cares. I'm a Brit and we're semi-detached from the EU nightmare.

    However I'd find this supremely irritating if I was Italian. Italy is one of the great and grand nations of Europe, with a GDP not so much smaller than France's, and a more important and eloquent history than either France or Germany.

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.
    Probably because Italians have a more beautiful country, better weather and better food, more charm and better love lives and more close-knit families, better things to do with their time than bossing the rest of the EU around
    Hm. I put precisely that argument to the Italians I met on my recent trip across Friuli. It got short shrift.

    The Italians (at least in the north) are beginning to chafe under the EU bridle, I suspect. The Dolce Vita doesn't seem so Dolce any more.
    The Italians have certainly been more conciliatory to Greece than the Germans, I think the Eurozone may be beginning to split on Northern Europe v Southern Europe lines
    Someone asked me the other day where the north vs south cultural difference emerged from, and I could not answer. After all, the south was once the efficient and rule following Roman Empire, while the north was wild barbarians. When did the change happen and what caused it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,307
    JEO said:

    When did the change happen and what caused it?

    The Protestant Reformation.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    Jonathan said:

    valleyboy said:

    valleyboy said:

    Danny565 said:

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    If Kendall had the sense to tilt left a bit more, as Blair did in 1994, she might be doing a little better in winning over the pragmatists.

    Ashley Walsh ‏@Ashley_Walsh 4h4 hours ago
    Kendall's near-dogmatic Blairism means she risks alienating the old Labour right, which is certainly leading in Burnham's favour.

    Burnham has a long way to go to convince me he has the right vision to take :Labour forward.
    We can't look back. The world has moved on.
    Indeed and Blairites appear least capable of moving on
    Well we can't go left and we can't go right, so which fecking way should we go?

    Forward.

    4ward.

    Get it right!

    Ed-ward!
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    Many Brits still don't instinctively think that the UK is in "Europe".

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
    O/T:

    The horrible truth about ageing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/06/old-before-your-time-people-age-at-wildly-different-rates-study-confirms

    "Old before your time? People age at wildly different rates, study confirms
    Tests on physiological markers in nearly 1,000 38-year-olds found that some had biological ages many years older than their birthdates would suggest"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    JEO said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    JEO said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    They're correct though. Cameron just runs the UK. Hollande and Merkel run both their own countries, and the EU
    Possibly true, but who cares. I'm a Brit and we're semi-detached from the EU nightmare.

    However I'd find this supremely irritating if I was Italian. Italy is one of the great and grand nations of Europe, with a GDP not so much smaller than France's, and a more important and eloquent history than either France or Germany.

    Yet the Italians are routinely belittled. I wonder why they tolerate it.
    Probably because Italians have a more beautiful country, better weather and better food, more charm and better love lives and more close-knit families, better things to do with their time than bossing the rest of the EU around
    Hm. I put precisely that argument to the Italians I met on my recent trip across Friuli. It got short shrift.

    The Italians (at least in the north) are beginning to chafe under the EU bridle, I suspect. The Dolce Vita doesn't seem so Dolce any more.
    The Italians have certainly been more conciliatory to Greece than the Germans, I think the Eurozone may be beginning to split on Northern Europe v Southern Europe lines
    Someone asked me the other day where the north vs south cultural difference emerged from, and I could not answer. After all, the south was once the efficient and rule following Roman Empire, while the north was wild barbarians. When did the change happen and what caused it?
    Perhaps to do with the north absorbing the best bits of their Roman conquerors and the South going into relative decline after the fall of Rome. Max Weber would also have said it is something to do with the rise of the Protestant work ethic in the north while the South stuck to Catholicism
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    edited July 2015
    tlg86 said:

    Off-topic (but based on something on the previous topic):

    One of the complains about rail privatisation has been that our railways end up being tun by foreign companies.

    Well, it's a two-way street. British-based National Express recently won a second set of franchises in Germany:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11679105/National-Express-steams-further-into-Germany.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10331709/National-Express-wins-contract-to-run-German-trains.html

    I think the issue isn't so much about foreign companies running our trains, but rather the possibility that state backed foreign companies (such as Abellio) can bid to run franchises but domestic state backed organisations cannot. That said, TfL runs the London Overground franchise and Boris has been quite vocal in wanting TfL to takeover more inner suburban services.
    He just took over all the suburban services out of Liverpool Street.

    Chingford, Cheshunt (via Seven Sisters) and Enfield Town are now part of London Overground, along with Romford to Upminster, and the Shenfield "metro" is now TfL Rail, a precursor to CrossRail.

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=sunil060902+2015&amp;title=Special:Search&amp;go=Go&amp;uselang=en-gb
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    perdix said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    Many Brits still don't instinctively think that the UK is in "Europe".

    Yes, instinctively I don't. Europe is across the Channel.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    GeoffM said:

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many Greeks have quietly slipped into the UK in recent months, quickly converting their Euros to pounds at Marks & Spencer exchange booths?

    On a previous thread I mentioned the increase in job applications in my area and my industry from Greeks in the last few months. @foxinsoxuk said that he'd seen a similar trend.

    Well, the extended family of my new Greek developer chappy are now in town "visiting". I've taken three of them to Companies House this week and it's only the first few minutes of Tuesday so far. They are setting up as sole-traders and trying to open up bank accounts.
    Our new Greek Doctor (from Epirus) started today. No British applicants for a University Hospital job.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting item on Newsnight now on Labour's 1945 victory and its legacy for Labour now, interviews with Healey, Mandelson, Beckett amongst others

    Free propaganda for Labour :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The horrible truth about ageing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/06/old-before-your-time-people-age-at-wildly-different-rates-study-confirms

    "Old before your time? People age at wildly different rates, study confirms
    Tests on physiological markers in nearly 1,000 38-year-olds found that some had biological ages many years older than their birthdates would suggest"

    I'm gonna be 40 in a few months' time :(
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many Greeks have quietly slipped into the UK in recent months, quickly converting their Euros to pounds at Marks & Spencer exchange booths?

    On a previous thread I mentioned the increase in job applications in my area and my industry from Greeks in the last few months. @foxinsoxuk said that he'd seen a similar trend.

    Well, the extended family of my new Greek developer chappy are now in town "visiting". I've taken three of them to Companies House this week and it's only the first few minutes of Tuesday so far. They are setting up as sole-traders and trying to open up bank accounts.
    Our new Greek Doctor (from Epirus) started today. No British applicants for a University Hospital job.
    I have a suspicion that he is likely to be excellent. The exceptional quality of CVs crossing my desk from Greece is unprecedented across my industry here. The technology sector here is receiving a huge shot in the arm in terms of new talent. Yours too it seems.

    The brain drain is not just of individuals but whole families are moving here at the same time. This, just as much as the financial crisis, will hurt Greece for generations to come.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    The event seems to have disappeated from the Loughboro Uni website. Or it did as soon as I tried to log in!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    AndyJS said:

    I wonder how many Greeks have quietly slipped into the UK in recent months, quickly converting their Euros to pounds at Marks & Spencer exchange booths?

    On a previous thread I mentioned the increase in job applications in my area and my industry from Greeks in the last few months. @foxinsoxuk said that he'd seen a similar trend.

    Well, the extended family of my new Greek developer chappy are now in town "visiting". I've taken three of them to Companies House this week and it's only the first few minutes of Tuesday so far. They are setting up as sole-traders and trying to open up bank accounts.
    Our new Greek Doctor (from Epirus) started today. No British applicants for a University Hospital job.
    I have a suspicion that he is likely to be excellent. The exceptional quality of CVs crossing my desk from Greece is unprecedented across my industry here. The technology sector here is receiving a huge shot in the arm in terms of new talent. Yours too it seems.

    The brain drain is not just of individuals but whole families are moving here at the same time. This, just as much as the financial crisis, will hurt Greece for generations to come.
    She seems very promising. We need foreign doctors to fill the rotas and keep the service functioning, as we get very few local applicants with suitable specialist training.

    Next year the government is reducing specialist training places again. Some joined up thinking is required.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    edited July 2015
    perdix said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    Many Brits still don't instinctively think that the UK is in "Europe".

    We have some things in common with Europe as a whole, and many things in common with some particular European nations. It's a fascinating, beautiful place to visit - and I am not (yet) a eurosceptic.

    Equally we have many things in common with the USA and Canada (and more differences than some would care to admit).

    Having said all that my gut feel is that culturally and politically the Channel is wider than the Atlantic.

    I feel more connected to the Anglosphere and Commonwealth than Europe.

    There - I said it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    Disraeli said:

    perdix said:

    SeanT said:

    BBC Ten just called Merkel and Hollande "the two most powerful leaders in Europe"

    Disputable, at the very least. Cameron helms a larger economy than Hollande with, probably a more powerful military, and considerably more "soft power" and cultural influence - from the English language to superior universities (cf all the Greek leaders who went to UK unis).

    Tut.


    How unsurprising.
    Many Brits still don't instinctively think that the UK is in "Europe".

    We have some things in common with Europe as a whole, and many things in common with some particular European nations. It's a fascinating, beautiful place to visit - and I am not (yet) a eurosceptic.

    Equally we have many things in common with the USA and Canada (and more differences than some would care to admit).

    Having said all that my gut feel is that culturally and politically the Channel is wider than the Atlantic.

    I feel more connected to the Anglosphere and Commonwealth than Europe.

    There - I said it.
    And yet the EU is part of the Anglosphere! English is an official language across the EU, and the EU's own data from some years ago shows 51% of EU citizens can hold a conversation in English!

This discussion has been closed.