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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Ipsos Mori issues index for June

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Ipsos Mori issues index for June

The big risers are Immigration/Immigrants and EU/Europe, which seems understandable given the focus on the EU referendum since the election. The big faller is the economy, which maybe confirmation of the fifteen year high in consumer confidence that the pollster GfK found yesterday.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    edited July 2015
    First.

    As mentioned, the changes seem sensible. Concern about the NHS has gone down after the election, and now Labour have stopped claiming the NHS is about to die/be cut up/be abolished; immigration has increased with the pressures caused by people coming across the Med.

    The rise in the EU's score means people can no longer claim that concern about the EU is at the bottom of the list :smile:

    But I'm still at the stage where I take anything from pollsters at the moment with a pinch of salt, even this series of polls.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    FPT
    Clever politic? Merkel by deferring a decision until after the Greferendum allows the Greeks to get a taste of what hey might face if they vote no ..... And it might be just working?

    Reuters July 1st

    "A majority of Greeks would vote No to the terms of a proposed bailout deal by foreign lenders but the lead narrowed significantly after banks were closed this week, according to an opinion poll published on Wednesday.

    The poll, by the ProRata institute published in the Efimerida ton Syntatkton newspaper, showed 54 percent of those planning to vote would oppose the bailout against 33 percent in favor. However a breakdown of results between those polled before and after Sunday's decision to close the banks and impose capital controls showed the gap narrowing."
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    When you look at these stats, all that nonsense about double dips seems a very long time ago... and Labour no longer support increasing the top rate of tax to 50p.. Surprise Surprise.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015
    Moses_ said:

    FPT
    Clever politic? Merkel by deferring a decision until after the Greferendum allows the Greeks to get a taste of what hey might face if they vote no ..... And it might be just working?

    Reuters July 1st

    "A majority of Greeks would vote No to the terms of a proposed bailout deal by foreign lenders but the lead narrowed significantly after banks were closed this week, according to an opinion poll published on Wednesday.

    The poll, by the ProRata institute published in the Efimerida ton Syntatkton newspaper, showed 54 percent of those planning to vote would oppose the bailout against 33 percent in favor. However a breakdown of results between those polled before and after Sunday's decision to close the banks and impose capital controls showed the gap narrowing."

    Smart politics if you are only interested in the short term view I guess.

    Even if the Greeks vote yes its an elastoplast at best. They still won't be give any more money than the bare minimum needed to pay their creditors and have no real chance of fixing their economy. As I quoted before..
    A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until as last every minute is a weariness.
    Greeks that have not yet been born will grow up in a wrecked economy in which they have no part in the making, they will largely not get any jobs when the leave school, and their resentment will fester. This doesn't sound like the way for a new united states of Europe to be born, it sounds like a recipe for conflict.
    If the Greeks stay in now, I would except an even more fruitcakey party to get elected after a few years of some "conservative" party failing to fix the economy like the last one didn't, as the people despair. Podemas is massively more fruitcakey than SYRIZA so there is definitely precedent.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015
    FPT:
    Everything is actually working out just as planned for the Euro-elite. The reason economic union happened was a driver to political union. When the various economic crisis have occurred the answer was always more consolidation, more centralisation, more common policies.

    This is again exactly what we see this time, the Commission is busy telling any national leader that will listen that the answer to the Greek problem, and any future similar problems is a transfer union, a euro-treasury, and the commission having approval on national budgets. Indeed this was the main message in the "five presidents" document published a couple of weeks ago.

    Does anyone outside Brussels seriously think there is an appetite in any of the northern European countries for a transfer union ? What happens when the cash strapped southern countries start moving in that direction and outvote the northern countries in QMV ?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Lets take a little peekaboo at that old favourite, the Scottish subsample:

    Most important issue:

    Personal Finances: 17
    NHS: 17
    Economy: 15
    Immigration: 12
    Poverty: 9
    Low Pay: 7
    Unemployment: 6
    FREEDOM!!*: 6 (* technically, "Scottish/Welsh Assembly/Consitutional Reform/devolution)
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.

    There is a saying to the effect that the difference between a dog and a wolf is "three meals". My concern for a long time (having a multi-racial family) has been how many of, on the one hand Rotherhams, and on the other hand Lee Rigbys does it take before the discontent starts becoming more overt, and before various nutters take it as license for more concrete actions, and before the public starts to shrug at those actions and turn a blind eye. Historically when the state starts to look impotent in the face of a perceived threat, it is a short road from there to vigilantism.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045
    Airport commission recommends Heathrow. Who'd have thunk it?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    RobD said:

    Airport commission recommends Heathrow. Who'd have thunk it?

    One would have thought that the Commission would have reached a conclusion which is liable to be implemented.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.

    It may of course be one of the drivers for immigration concern. If the two become closely linked in peoples minds there will be trouble.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Indigo said:

    Moses_ said:

    FPT
    Clever politic? Merkel by deferring a decision until after the Greferendum allows the Greeks to get a taste of what hey might face if they vote no ..... And it might be just working?

    Reuters July 1st

    "A majority of Greeks would vote No to the terms of a proposed bailout deal by foreign lenders but the lead narrowed significantly after banks were closed this week, according to an opinion poll published on Wednesday.

    The poll, by the ProRata institute published in the Efimerida ton Syntatkton newspaper, showed 54 percent of those planning to vote would oppose the bailout against 33 percent in favor. However a breakdown of results between those polled before and after Sunday's decision to close the banks and impose capital controls showed the gap narrowing."

    Smart politics if you are only interested in the short term view I guess.

    Even if the Greeks vote yes its an elastoplast at best. They still won't be give any more money than the bare minimum needed to pay their creditors and have no real chance of fixing their economy. As I quoted before..
    A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until as last every minute is a weariness.
    Greeks that have not yet been born will grow up in a wrecked economy in which they have no part in the making, they will largely not get any jobs when the leave school, and their resentment will fester. This doesn't sound like the way for a new united states of Europe to be born, it sounds like a recipe for conflict.
    If the Greeks stay in now, I would except an even more fruitcakey party to get elected after a few years of some "conservative" party failing to fix the economy like the last one didn't, as the people despair. Podemas is massively more fruitcakey than SYRIZA so there is definitely precedent.

    Do you know, Indigo, the more often you quote it, the truer it gets and the more the rest of us admire your enormous brain...

    Presumably the Greeks will all emigrate (possibly to Scotland) which will at least provide some space for the African boat people...

    (I didn't get enough sleep last night. It shows, doesn't it?)

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    matt said:

    RobD said:

    Airport commission recommends Heathrow. Who'd have thunk it?

    One would have thought that the Commission would have reached a conclusion which is liable to be implemented.
    The Commission should reach the best conclusion of the options which were presented to it. If Heathrow was unviable it should never have been an option before it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    And a passing glance at the (small base size) UKIP voter - pretty much in line with total base, except for two issues......

    Most important issue: (total base)

    Immigration: 44 (26)
    EU: 14 (6)
    NHS : 13 (12)
    Economy: 7 (13)
    Unemployment: 7 (5)
    Personal Finances: 4 (9)
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    Immigration should have been split into: people from the EU and people from the ROW. There should be an opportunity to name (unprompted) countries within the EU.

    Perhaps benefits for immigrants should have been another question.

    The ECHR should have been a separate question as many people conflate it with the EU.

    Then the results may be very different.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Financier said:

    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    I may be mistaken - but I don't think respondents choose from a list - they give their own answer and the pollster categorises it into the listed categories.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    I may be mistaken - but I don't think respondents choose from a list - they give their own answer and the pollster categorises it into the listed categories.
    If you do not ask the right questions then you will not get the full answers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Indigo said:

    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.

    There is a saying to the effect that the difference between a dog and a wolf is "three meals". My concern for a long time (having a multi-racial family) has been how many of, on the one hand Rotherhams, and on the other hand Lee Rigbys does it take before the discontent starts becoming more overt, and before various nutters take it as license for more concrete actions, and before the public starts to shrug at those actions and turn a blind eye. Historically when the state starts to look impotent in the face of a perceived threat, it is a short road from there to vigilantism.
    To my knowledge we've had three domestic Islamic terrorist incidents in a decade: 7/7, Glasgow Airport and the murder of Lee Rigby. We are still a long way from three incidents in a short space of time or the violence of the Troubles.

    Yes I know I'm not counting incidents stopped by the Police/Security Services while still just plots but that's their jobs and stopping them is surely equivalent to feeding the dog in your analogy.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.


    Responses to 'Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism' total 2% - with the Welsh most worried at 8%

    However atrocious Tunisia was, and the next outrage will be, voters may know that for all the horror we are individually at extremely small risk - and crossing the road, or going downstairs remain substantially more dangerous.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Financier said:

    Financier said:

    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    I may be mistaken - but I don't think respondents choose from a list - they give their own answer and the pollster categorises it into the listed categories.
    If you do not ask the right questions then you will not get the full answers.
    What's wrong with 'What's the most important issue facing Britain today'?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144964/It-s-time-LESBIAN-Peppa-Pig-Lib-Dem-leadership-hopeful-says-gay-children-s-TV-characters-not-bounds.html#ixzz3ecVujRMV
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Financier said:

    Financier said:

    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    I may be mistaken - but I don't think respondents choose from a list - they give their own answer and the pollster categorises it into the listed categories.
    If you do not ask the right questions then you will not get the full answers.
    What's wrong with 'What's the most important issue facing Britain today'?
    Er... because respondents can't be relied upon to distinguish "Britain" from themselves, perhaps?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    edited July 2015
    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144964/It-s-time-LESBIAN-Peppa-Pig-Lib-Dem-leadership-hopeful-says-gay-children-s-TV-characters-not-bounds.html#ixzz3ecVujRMV
    That's like the Guardian article condemning Thomas the Tank Engine's misogyny and racism. I think the Lib Dems will be out of power for a long, long, time

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    It is quite amusing to read below the line in the Telegraph this morning while the Europhobes (no place for a mere sceptic) try to work out who they hate most: the EU and all its works or loony left wing governments who impoverish their people: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11709473/Greece-defaults-on-the-International-Monetary-Fund-after-launching-11th-hour-attempt-to-agree-new-rescue-deal.html

    I think those who think every problem is really caused by these mysterious Eurocrats probably edge it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.


    Responses to 'Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism' total 2% - with the Welsh most worried at 8%

    However atrocious Tunisia was, and the next outrage will be, voters may know that for all the horror we are individually at extremely small risk - and crossing the road, or going downstairs remain substantially more dangerous.....
    There is a piece in the Telegraph today asking how Margaret Thatcher would have responded to the murder of 30 British citizens. I don't think a minute's silence quite covers it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I read in The Times IIRC that the security/police forces are running at about 1 UK terrorism arrest a day over the last 12 months.

    That's a lot of stopping-a-horror. That we haven't had anything recently more deadly than the vile killing of Lee Rigby is a source of encouraging surprise from me. I keep my fingers crossed.

    Indigo said:

    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.

    There is a saying to the effect that the difference between a dog and a wolf is "three meals". My concern for a long time (having a multi-racial family) has been how many of, on the one hand Rotherhams, and on the other hand Lee Rigbys does it take before the discontent starts becoming more overt, and before various nutters take it as license for more concrete actions, and before the public starts to shrug at those actions and turn a blind eye. Historically when the state starts to look impotent in the face of a perceived threat, it is a short road from there to vigilantism.
    To my knowledge we've had three domestic Islamic terrorist incidents in a decade: 7/7, Glasgow Airport and the murder of Lee Rigby. We are still a long way from three incidents in a short space of time or the violence of the Troubles.

    Yes I know I'm not counting incidents stopped by the Police/Security Services while still just plots but that's their jobs and stopping them is surely equivalent to feeding the dog in your analogy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Who was that TellyTubby with the handbag? Wasn't he gay?
    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144964/It-s-time-LESBIAN-Peppa-Pig-Lib-Dem-leadership-hopeful-says-gay-children-s-TV-characters-not-bounds.html#ixzz3ecVujRMV
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    RobD said:

    Airport commission recommends Heathrow. Who'd have thunk it?

    Why did they have one? No matter how weak the case for Heathrow is it was always going to be the recommendation.

    I expect the people have more sense than our political masters and see terrorism as an immigration issue.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Good morning, everyone.

    I do wonder how the Greeks will vote. And, if it's No, what will really happen.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Financier said:

    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.

    There's no common sense here. The EU leaders think that successive crises can bring their dream of a single State closer. Syriza think they can ignore economic reality. Whichever way the Greeks vote, they lose.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Good morning, everyone.

    I do wonder how the Greeks will vote. And, if it's No, what will really happen.

    They will vote "yes" (just) and then re-elect Syriza.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Financier said:

    Financier said:

    This poll illustrates the lack of imagination of both the sponsors and the pollsters.

    I may be mistaken - but I don't think respondents choose from a list - they give their own answer and the pollster categorises it into the listed categories.
    If you do not ask the right questions then you will not get the full answers.
    What's wrong with 'What's the most important issue facing Britain today'?
    Er... because respondents can't be relied upon to distinguish "Britain" from themselves, perhaps?

    Also if the answer is EU or immigration etc, then there needs to be sub or clarification questions that dig deeper into the answer.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015
    Interesting that the fieldwork was 5th - 10th June, so before stories about Tunisia and Calais dominated the news.

    It would be an interesting exercise for them to go back to the panel and ask more detailled questions on say the top half a dozen responses to this survey afterwards, to get more information on why the top issues are the top issues.

    Heathrow - just get on with it, and start the process now for where the next runway after that should be built, because it will probably take 20 years to fudge that one too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.

    It may of course be one of the drivers for immigration concern. If the two become closely linked in peoples minds there will be trouble.

    The fieldwork for this ended on the 15th of June, so I've edited the thread header so it now reads

    The fieldwork for this polling ended on the 15th of June, so before the recent events in Greece and Tunisia
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966


    Do you know, Indigo, the more often you quote it, the truer it gets and the more the rest of us admire your enormous brain...

    Presumably the Greeks will all emigrate (possibly to Scotland) which will at least provide some space for the African boat people...

    (I didn't get enough sleep last night. It shows, doesn't it?)

    I didn't get enough either.

    I suspect a few will emigrate, many won't in the same way as many Brits wouldn't have if Ed Miliband got elected, they will just stay at home and get angry (or drunk). The African boat people wont want to go to Greece, not when there are nice places with booming economies (since the afore mentioned EdM didn't get elected) and free health and education available to them. Working as I do with people who make substantially less every day than most of the economic migrants moving from Africa make even before they get in the boats, I am not all that sympathetic to them.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Indigo said:

    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.

    There is a saying to the effect that the difference between a dog and a wolf is "three meals". My concern for a long time (having a multi-racial family) has been how many of, on the one hand Rotherhams, and on the other hand Lee Rigbys does it take before the discontent starts becoming more overt, and before various nutters take it as license for more concrete actions, and before the public starts to shrug at those actions and turn a blind eye. Historically when the state starts to look impotent in the face of a perceived threat, it is a short road from there to vigilantism.
    To my knowledge we've had three domestic Islamic terrorist incidents in a decade: 7/7, Glasgow Airport and the murder of Lee Rigby. We are still a long way from three incidents in a short space of time or the violence of the Troubles.

    Yes I know I'm not counting incidents stopped by the Police/Security Services while still just plots but that's their jobs and stopping them is surely equivalent to feeding the dog in your analogy.
    There was a second attack 2 weeks after 7/7 where the bombs did not go off or misarmed. It was in the fall-out of this that Charles de Menezes was killed.

    2007, around the same time as the Glasgow attack, saw a car bomb attack on a night club, foiled by pissed-up clubbers noticing something about the car.

    2008 saw a failed attack on a restaurant in exeter.

    These are all very near-misses (and stopped by incompetence rather than the security services), I'm sure a cursory google would find more.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015
    Sean_F said:

    Financier said:

    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.

    There's no common sense here. The EU leaders think that successive crises can bring their dream of a single State closer. Syriza think they can ignore economic reality. Whichever way the Greeks vote, they lose.
    Quite. Those advocating 'ever closer union' need to understand that this means Greece's bills are paid by Germany. That's how a superstate HAS to work, it's a single country after all.

    Meanwhile the Greek govt think that the Eurocrats' belief in 'ever closer union' means that they will eventually fold, as there's no formal mechanism for kicking them out of the Euro.

    Dangerous games when playing for such high stakes. One imagines that Mme Legard is wishing the IMF had never got involved with the EZ countries at all.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Given both the UK and EU's inability to do very much about it, and its growing pressures, immigration will stay at the top of that league table for quite a while to come.

    There is a saying to the effect that the difference between a dog and a wolf is "three meals". My concern for a long time (having a multi-racial family) has been how many of, on the one hand Rotherhams, and on the other hand Lee Rigbys does it take before the discontent starts becoming more overt, and before various nutters take it as license for more concrete actions, and before the public starts to shrug at those actions and turn a blind eye. Historically when the state starts to look impotent in the face of a perceived threat, it is a short road from there to vigilantism.
    To my knowledge we've had three domestic Islamic terrorist incidents in a decade: 7/7, Glasgow Airport and the murder of Lee Rigby. We are still a long way from three incidents in a short space of time or the violence of the Troubles.

    Yes I know I'm not counting incidents stopped by the Police/Security Services while still just plots but that's their jobs and stopping them is surely equivalent to feeding the dog in your analogy.
    Indeed, although I think an Charlie Hebdo, Tunisia etc. are the equivalent to missing at least part of a meal, to stretch the analogy rather further this is perhaps wise ;)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    After the great film of analogue computing - thought this would amuse us on a hot day. I think it may be a teenager...
    A clever computer being developed by Google got 'angry' with its programmer after being quizzed on morality and ethics.

    The computer, which was responding to the question 'What is moral?', repeatedly told the human being that it didn't know what ethics was, before declaring: 'I'm not in the mood for a philosophical debate.'

    The human then tried to re-engage the machine by asking what it likes to talk about.

    But, seemingly annoyed by the frustrating conversation, the moody computer simply replied: 'Nothing.'

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3142932/I-m-not-mood-philosophical-debate-Clever-computer-gets-angry-programmer-frustrating-conversation-morality-ethics.html#ixzz3ecc9lhZt
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    edited July 2015
    Sandpit said:

    Interesting that the fieldwork was 5th - 10th June, so before stories about Tunisia and Calais dominated the news.

    It would be an interesting exercise for them to go back to the panel and ask more detailled questions on say the top half a dozen responses to this survey afterwards, to get more information on why the top issues are the top issues.

    Heathrow - just get on with it, and start the process now for where the next runway after that should be built, because it will probably take 20 years to fudge that one too.

    For me the only sensible answer to Heathrow or Gatwick was both and get on with it with an inquiry into where the third new runway in the south should be starting in a few weeks time.

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.

    It may of course be one of the drivers for immigration concern. If the two become closely linked in peoples minds there will be trouble.

    The fieldwork for this ended on the 15th of June, so I've edited the thread header so it now reads

    The fieldwork for this polling ended on the 15th of June, so before the recent events in Greece and Tunisia
    Thanks. Whilst I take Carlotta's point that the statistical chance of any one of us (apart from BJO of course) getting involved in a terrorist event is tiny people are not very good at measuring such risks and tend to overstate them.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Financier said:

    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.

    There's no common sense here. The EU leaders think that successive crises can bring their dream of a single State closer. Syriza think they can ignore economic reality. Whichever way the Greeks vote, they lose.
    Quite. Those advocating 'ever closer union' need to understand that this means Greece's bills are paid by Germany. That's how a superstate HAS to work, it's a single country after all.

    Meanwhile the Greek govt think that the Eurocrats' belief in 'ever closer union' means that they will eventually fold, as there's no formal mechanism for kicking them out of the Euro.

    Dangerous games when playing for such high stakes. One imagines that Mme Legard is wishing the IMF had never got involved with the EZ countries at all.
    Christine Lagarde is on record as saying that at least part of the problem is increasing inequality.

  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    The 3rd runway at Heathrow is perfectly sensible and deliverable from a technical point of view. The question is whether SW London MPs will put the country ahead of their constituencies full of vocal NIMBYs. Unfortunately, I think we already know the answer to that...

    Disclosure: I live in south west London
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes
    Most LDs seem to be happier if they could all link hands and sing Kumbaya to make the world a better place, rather having to deal with the unpleasantness of adopting workable and electable policies.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. F, the vote does look a bit Alien Versus Predator.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144964/It-s-time-LESBIAN-Peppa-Pig-Lib-Dem-leadership-hopeful-says-gay-children-s-TV-characters-not-bounds.html#ixzz3ecVujRMV
    Why do children's cartoons need sexually active characters at all?

    Though to my memory as a child the most sexual inuendo that ever happened in cartoons I watched was Bugs Bunny dressing in women's clothes and being alluring to Elmer Fudd etc - and I know those weren't contemporary 80's cartoons but from decades earlier.

    For the cartoons my daughter watches the only relationship I can think of is still Mickey and Minnie Mouse.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Iain Dale intv Zac Goldsmith on LBC in a mo.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981

    Mr. F, the vote does look a bit Alien Versus Predator.

    The Greeks deserve it.

    They want to continue spending Germany's money, and the Germans are wondering "what have the Greeks ever done for us?"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Financier said:

    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.

    There's no common sense here. The EU leaders think that successive crises can bring their dream of a single State closer. Syriza think they can ignore economic reality. Whichever way the Greeks vote, they lose.
    Quite. Those advocating 'ever closer union' need to understand that this means Greece's bills are paid by Germany. That's how a superstate HAS to work, it's a single country after all.

    Meanwhile the Greek govt think that the Eurocrats' belief in 'ever closer union' means that they will eventually fold, as there's no formal mechanism for kicking them out of the Euro.

    Dangerous games when playing for such high stakes. One imagines that Mme Legard is wishing the IMF had never got involved with the EZ countries at all.
    In part there can be transfers in a superstate but the EZ could and should have let Greece go bankrupt - as the USA allowed Detroit to become bankrupt.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Mr. F, the vote does look a bit Alien Versus Predator.

    The Greeks deserve it.

    They want to continue spending Germany's money, and the Germans are wondering "what have the Greeks ever done for us?"
    But the Germans want an ever closer union ending in a United States of Europe, which will be single country with a internal transfer union, then they will be on the rope for all the money going into Greece, and they will not be able to treat Greece any different to anywhere else because it will be the same country.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Has something happened to Mark Reckless? Just seen a tweet that paid tribute to him like there was a problem.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    Indigo said:

    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes
    Most LDs seem to be happier if they could all link hands and sing Kumbaya to make the world a better place, rather having to deal with the unpleasantness of adopting workable and electable policies.
    we've had bert and ernie for years
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Mr. F, the vote does look a bit Alien Versus Predator.

    The Greeks deserve it.

    They want to continue spending Germany's money, and the Germans are wondering "what have the Greeks ever done for us?"
    Wrong question. What has Germany ever done to Greece.. just go back 70 yrs or so.. lots of hatred still prevalent.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.

    It may of course be one of the drivers for immigration concern. If the two become closely linked in peoples minds there will be trouble.

    The fieldwork for this ended on the 15th of June, so I've edited the thread header so it now reads

    The fieldwork for this polling ended on the 15th of June, so before the recent events in Greece and Tunisia
    Most people don't, I suspect, feel personally very worried by either Tunisia or Greece, even if like us with BigJohn they know someone who came very close to the horror. The Tunisian slaughter is awful but categorised as "dreadful things sometimes happen around the world". Greece is seen as very specifically about Greece.

    Both objectively and subjectively, as Carlotta says, people know that the risk of a madman shooting you is very, very low down on your list of daily dangers. I think that people in London did feel it had become significant for a bit after 7/7, and previously at the height of the IRA bombings, but otherwise it's just registered as one of the horrid but fairly unlikely things that might happen.

    That doesn't mean that people don't want the Government to be proactive and vigilant - of course they do. But it's not really impinging much as a personal factor at the present levels. Nor should it - it'd be bonkers if people going to the supermarket looked round nervously to see if someone was about to shoot them. We owe it to ourselves not to get too paranoid about it: we're just playing the ISIS game if we do.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Incidentally, is there a specific breakdown of the Greek poll into "before and after the banks closed", with numbers? But as by implication there was still a No majority afterwards, that seems to be the better bet.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.


    Responses to 'Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism' total 2% - with the Welsh most worried at 8%

    However atrocious Tunisia was, and the next outrage will be, voters may know that for all the horror we are individually at extremely small risk - and crossing the road, or going downstairs remain substantially more dangerous.....
    There is a piece in the Telegraph today asking how Margaret Thatcher would have responded to the murder of 30 British citizens. I don't think a minute's silence quite covers it.
    Thatcher saw many more than 30 killed on her watch - and I doubt 'going apeshit' as the writer suggests would have achieved much.....
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Boris in car crash interview on R4.

    Are all these people (Cameron yesterday) being coached by the same person / organisation, 'cos they all seem to be making the same mistakes - bluff, bluster, double bluff, try and ram your own points through with no relevance to the question, bluff and lastly, but not forgotten, in the race to sound like a complete eejit, more bluster?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,168
    edited July 2015
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.


    Responses to 'Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism' total 2% - with the Welsh most worried at 8%

    However atrocious Tunisia was, and the next outrage will be, voters may know that for all the horror we are individually at extremely small risk - and crossing the road, or going downstairs remain substantially more dangerous.....
    There is a piece in the Telegraph today asking how Margaret Thatcher would have responded to the murder of 30 British citizens. I don't think a minute's silence quite covers it.
    Yeah, perhaps something really effective along the lines of the terrorist broadcasting ban is what's needed.


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015

    Mr. F, the vote does look a bit Alien Versus Predator.

    The Greeks deserve it.

    They want to continue spending Germany's money, and the Germans are wondering "what have the Greeks ever done for us?"
    Wrong question. What has Germany ever done to Greece.. just go back 70 yrs or so.. lots of hatred still prevalent.
    Germany has sold the Greeks plenty of BMWs, Mercedes and Porsches in the last few years, mainly because of the Euro making these things cheaper to Greeks than they would otherwise have been.

    Both Germany and Greece are now having to deal with the implications of Euro membership without the associated fiscal union. This is the crux of Cameron's negotiations, that the fiscal union has to be deeper to avoid another crisis, and that's where the UK (and Denmark, and possibly Sweeden) doesn't want to be.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.


    Responses to 'Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism' total 2% - with the Welsh most worried at 8%

    However atrocious Tunisia was, and the next outrage will be, voters may know that for all the horror we are individually at extremely small risk - and crossing the road, or going downstairs remain substantially more dangerous.....
    There is a piece in the Telegraph today asking how Margaret Thatcher would have responded to the murder of 30 British citizens. I don't think a minute's silence quite covers it.
    Yeah, perhaps something really effective along the lines of the terrorist broadcasting ban is what's needed.
    Ha, that brings back memories of the Ulterman actor hired by the BBC to lipsync interviews of Messrs Adams and McGuinness in the 1980s.

    What the authorities thought might happen if we got to hear their actual voices God only knows?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    It's a Nat surge

    @britainelects

    Con HOLD Pentrych on Cardiff CC:

    CON 40.2% (-14.2)
    PC 39.0% (+26.9)
    LAB 16.8% (-12.3)
    IND 1.7% (+1.7)
    GRN 1.6% (-1.2)
    LDEM 0.7% (-0.8)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If you haven't seen it yet - Sky have outdone themselves yet again with a BRILLIANT mash-up of Osborne worthy of General Boles.

    http://news.sky.com/video/1508157/he-s-been-thinking-about-you
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    Slightly surprising that security does not feature on that list. I wonder if this was done before Tunisia.

    It may of course be one of the drivers for immigration concern. If the two become closely linked in peoples minds there will be trouble.

    The fieldwork for this ended on the 15th of June, so I've edited the thread header so it now reads

    The fieldwork for this polling ended on the 15th of June, so before the recent events in Greece and Tunisia
    Most people don't, I suspect, feel personally very worried by either Tunisia or Greece, even if like us with BigJohn they know someone who came very close to the horror. The Tunisian slaughter is awful but categorised as "dreadful things sometimes happen around the world". Greece is seen as very specifically about Greece.

    Both objectively and subjectively, as Carlotta says, people know that the risk of a madman shooting you is very, very low down on your list of daily dangers. I think that people in London did feel it had become significant for a bit after 7/7, and previously at the height of the IRA bombings, but otherwise it's just registered as one of the horrid but fairly unlikely things that might happen.

    That doesn't mean that people don't want the Government to be proactive and vigilant - of course they do. But it's not really impinging much as a personal factor at the present levels. Nor should it - it'd be bonkers if people going to the supermarket looked round nervously to see if someone was about to shoot them. We owe it to ourselves not to get too paranoid about it: we're just playing the ISIS game if we do.
    I agree with all of that Nick but if I were asked now about issues facing the country security would certainly be in my top 4.

    Like all of these headings it is a broad category with a range of facets: how do we deal with the fact that hundreds of our citizens want to go to fight with ISIL in Syria or Iraq, have we gone too far in defence cuts, should we get more directly involved in the fight against ISIS, how do we deal with the security risk at home without turning into a police state, how do we correct the mistakes of multi-culturalism and integrate better into a unified community, where is the boundary between free speech and incitement to be put etc etc.

    All of these questions seem to me relevant to our future security and they do not have straightforward answers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015

    It's a Nat surge

    @britainelects

    Con HOLD Pentrych on Cardiff CC:

    CON 40.2% (-14.2)
    PC 39.0% (+26.9)
    LAB 16.8% (-12.3)
    IND 1.7% (+1.7)
    GRN 1.6% (-1.2)
    LDEM 0.7% (-0.8)

    Wow - surprising numbers. Does anyone on the ground know what was behind the PC surge, given that they came damn close to winning from a distant 3rd place?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    If you haven't seen it yet - Sky have outdone themselves yet again with a BRILLIANT mash-up of Osborne worthy of General Boles.

    http://news.sky.com/video/1508157/he-s-been-thinking-about-you

    WARNING! You cannot unsee that clip...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    OchEye said:

    Boris in car crash interview on R4.

    Are all these people (Cameron yesterday) being coached by the same person / organisation, 'cos they all seem to be making the same mistakes - bluff, bluster, double bluff, try and ram your own points through with no relevance to the question, bluff and lastly, but not forgotten, in the race to sound like a complete eejit, more bluster?

    Pretty standard interview tactic, done particularly poorly by some of the newer MPs, so I'm surprised seasoned MPs would do so poorly at it, but I guess everyone has off days.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I love the selfie one - and fiddling with his hair. I can think of someone who will love/hate it...
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    If you haven't seen it yet - Sky have outdone themselves yet again with a BRILLIANT mash-up of Osborne worthy of General Boles.

    http://news.sky.com/video/1508157/he-s-been-thinking-about-you

    WARNING! You cannot unsee that clip...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    Plato said:

    If you haven't seen it yet - Sky have outdone themselves yet again with a BRILLIANT mash-up of Osborne worthy of General Boles.

    http://news.sky.com/video/1508157/he-s-been-thinking-about-you

    WARNING! You cannot unsee that clip...
    Morning all. That's really rather clever :).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120


    Traffic lights?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2015
    Plato said:

    If you haven't seen it yet - Sky have outdone themselves yet again with a BRILLIANT mash-up of Osborne worthy of General Boles.

    That's really rather creepy - some people have far to much time on their hands...!
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Tish, now this is a runway.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wertH16rSI
    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    ://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

  • But it's not really impinging much as a personal factor at the present levels. Nor should it - it'd be bonkers if people going to the supermarket looked round nervously to see if someone was about to shoot them. We owe it to ourselves not to get too paranoid about it: we're just playing the ISIS game if we do.

    How pleasant it is to read some sense on this subject. Were you playing the the fanatics' game when voted for indefinite detention of foreign terrorist suspects without trial [HC Deb 21 Nov 2001, col. 407], for control orders [HC Deb 23 Feb 2005, col. 437], and for 90 day pre-charge detention [HC Deb 9 Nov 2005, col. 367]? One of the principal reasons why people are more likely to overact to murderous outrages today is because of the absurd and authoritarian overreaction of successive governments over the last fifteen years.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    Moses_ said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JeremyCliffe: Lib Dems declare themselves "vehemently opposed" to airport expansion. Post-Clegg lurch back to cushy protest politics well underway.

    .....and fringe part politics it would seem?

    It's time for a LESBIAN Peppa Pig: Lib Dem leadership hopeful says gay children's TV characters should 'not be out of bounds'. Norman Lamb has backed gay characters in children's TV programmes


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3144964/It-s-time-LESBIAN-Peppa-Pig-Lib-Dem-leadership-hopeful-says-gay-children-s-TV-characters-not-bounds.html#ixzz3ecVujRMV
    Why do children's cartoons need sexually active characters at all?

    Though to my memory as a child the most sexual inuendo that ever happened in cartoons I watched was Bugs Bunny dressing in women's clothes and being alluring to Elmer Fudd etc - and I know those weren't contemporary 80's cartoons but from decades earlier.

    For the cartoons my daughter watches the only relationship I can think of is still Mickey and Minnie Mouse.
    Bugs Bunny was also very flamboyant and loved opera.

    You can find sexual innuendo everywhere, when you ignore context. Swallows and Amazons has Able Seaman Titty, Salty Seaman, and Roger the Ship's Boy.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045
    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780
    The M3/M4/M25 combo is a hellhole all the time nowadays...

    I would personally go for Gatwick.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Totally agree - it's already far too crowded and traffic a nightmare. Gatwick is much better, I always choose it above LHR when I can.

    The M3/M4/M25 combo is a hellhole all the time nowadays...

    I would personally go for Gatwick.

  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    Transfer passangers deliver little economic benefit, London I believe has more profitable enterprises to be engaged in.

    No one in their right mind would locate a hub airport in a densely populated area to the West of a major conurbation.

    Hub and spoke has been superceded by point to point.

    London like LA, Tokyo, NY and Moscow generates enough traffic not to need to be a hub. NY and Moscow operate satellite airports rather than a hub. Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Dubai are fine as hubs.

    Expansion is not needed, there is spare capacity at Stansted and regional airports.

    Expansion is ruinously expensive.

    Heathrow and BA are foreign owned anyway.

    Apart from that Heathrow expansion makes sense.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546

    Incidentally, is there a specific breakdown of the Greek poll into "before and after the banks closed", with numbers? But as by implication there was still a No majority afterwards, that seems to be the better bet.

    Before 57/30, after 46/37, but the latter is a small sample.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    But it's not really impinging much as a personal factor at the present levels. Nor should it - it'd be bonkers if people going to the supermarket looked round nervously to see if someone was about to shoot them. We owe it to ourselves not to get too paranoid about it: we're just playing the ISIS game if we do.

    How pleasant it is to read some sense on this subject. Were you playing the the fanatics' game when voted for indefinite detention of foreign terrorist suspects without trial [HC Deb 21 Nov 2001, col. 407], for control orders [HC Deb 23 Feb 2005, col. 437], and for 90 day pre-charge detention [HC Deb 9 Nov 2005, col. 367]? One of the principal reasons why people are more likely to overact to murderous outrages today is because of the absurd and authoritarian overreaction of successive governments over the last fifteen years.
    You almost make a point but is it not altogether a smart arse tactic to spout on about column 367 bla bla blah? We get your point - you read the small print and have the necessary brain the size of a planet to understand it.
    There is indeed over reaction, but the over reaction to a failure to prevent terrorism is even greater. A dozen thick people ran away to Syria. The emphasis was not on how thick and stupid and soon to be dead they were, but on the errors that allowed those thick people to fulfill their thick destiny.

    There was of course no need for 90 day detention and no need for David Davis to go off his self serving rocker over it. There is a need for intelligence gathering under clause 1 page 1 of the Manual on How to Defeat Terrorism. We should not be shy about putting up with it
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is nicely done http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/11236552/Air-traffic-timelapse-untangling-the-traffic-in-Britains-skies.html
    This mesmerising footage, created by NATS – the organisation in charge of UK air traffic control – depicts a single day in the skies above Britain and illustrates just how crowded they really are.

    The “data visualisation” video is created using actual flight records. It begins with a fleet of planes arriving from the west (“early morning transatlantic arrivals enter UK airspace”) and soon the screen is a complex and ever-changing web of arrivals and departures, including 3,500 flights into and out of London alone.

    It shows holding stacks above each of the major airports, military training flights over the east coast and inside a designated RAF testing area, as well as helicopter flights between Aberdeen – the world’s busiest heliport – and Britain’s North Sea rigs.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Incidentally, there's a Yorkshire aspect to the London airport (no, really). There was a piece on Look North recently about the cancelled rail projects, two of which are in Yorkshire. And £1 being spent here for every £10 in London.

    Now, you can argue about infrastructure and value to the economy, and there's a valid argument to be had, but when Yorkshire is again seeing projects cancelled (there's been a tram system hokey-cokey in Leeds several times as well as the recent railway issues) and London's biggest problem is whether to build another runway here or another runway there, the contrast may not play well.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It's not that bonkers - it's done elsewhere in the world.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    Sandpit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Financier said:

    Looking at the news last night (which probably was selective) the Greeks seemed to be split into those with the common economic sense and those who wanted no austerity and expected Germany and others just to bale them out and still carry on unreformed.

    I feel that in the referendum, economic common sense may just prevail.

    There's no common sense here. The EU leaders think that successive crises can bring their dream of a single State closer. Syriza think they can ignore economic reality. Whichever way the Greeks vote, they lose.
    Quite. Those advocating 'ever closer union' need to understand that this means Greece's bills are paid by Germany. That's how a superstate HAS to work, it's a single country after all.

    Meanwhile the Greek govt think that the Eurocrats' belief in 'ever closer union' means that they will eventually fold, as there's no formal mechanism for kicking them out of the Euro.

    Dangerous games when playing for such high stakes. One imagines that Mme Legard is wishing the IMF had never got involved with the EZ countries at all.
    In part there can be transfers in a superstate but the EZ could and should have let Greece go bankrupt - as the USA allowed Detroit to become bankrupt.
    The issue is that the Greek banks own large amounts of Greek debt, and if they all go bust...

    Willem Buiter of Citi wrote an interesting article on how Greece could default and stay in the Euro, with the ECB and the EFSF recapitalising the banks while Greece defaults. It's a compelling prospect, albeit one that still requires the government to play ball (which it shows no sign of doing).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    The Greeks continue to be lied to by all: I just read this in the FT:

    Standing on the fringes of an anti-austerity rally on Monday night in central Athens, Joanna Matsoukas, a high school physics teacher, was won over by the chanting students, communists and nationalists urging Greece to reject a new bailout and austerity package in a national referendum.

    That was until she was told voting No could mean Greece losing the euro.

    “Wait, could they really kick us out? I did not think that would happen,” Ms Matsoukas said. “[The anti-austerity campaign] has really convinced many parts of the middle-class . . . But if the vote was about choosing the drachma over the euro, then they would definitely lose.”
    That seeming paradox has existed in Greece throughout the crisis, with citizens deeply opposed to the austerity measures demanded by creditors but still desperately wedded to the euro and a place in the EU.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It's not that bonkers - it's done elsewhere in the world.
    Well, it seems bonkers to a lay man like me. Surely in safety there is the concept of very low risk, but massive impact, for an event? In this case an aircraft misses the runway due to engine trouble and ploughs into miles of stationery M25 traffic.

    Personally, I'm yet to be convinced that we actually need extra capacity in the South (again!), but if we really do, then maybe Boris is the only one talking sense on this one.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It would be much more exciting if the runway ran *under* the M25, with the road being on a bridge.

    This would mean that you would look down on planes landing, and it would be like landing inside a giant net.

    SUPER COOL, huh???
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    On the betting front, this announcement is going to make Zac's mayoral run and by-election v interesting
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981

    Incidentally, there's a Yorkshire aspect to the London airport (no, really). There was a piece on Look North recently about the cancelled rail projects, two of which are in Yorkshire. And £1 being spent here for every £10 in London.

    Now, you can argue about infrastructure and value to the economy, and there's a valid argument to be had, but when Yorkshire is again seeing projects cancelled (there's been a tram system hokey-cokey in Leeds several times as well as the recent railway issues) and London's biggest problem is whether to build another runway here or another runway there, the contrast may not play well.

    Tell me about it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045

    Incidentally, there's a Yorkshire aspect to the London airport (no, really). There was a piece on Look North recently about the cancelled rail projects, two of which are in Yorkshire. And £1 being spent here for every £10 in London.

    Now, you can argue about infrastructure and value to the economy, and there's a valid argument to be had, but when Yorkshire is again seeing projects cancelled (there's been a tram system hokey-cokey in Leeds several times as well as the recent railway issues) and London's biggest problem is whether to build another runway here or another runway there, the contrast may not play well.

    Tell me about it.
    Hi TSE.
    Just enquiring as to the status of the second coming of the AV thread?

    Thanks....


    titters :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It isn't beyond our ability to build a tunnel! I think the only reason they aligned the runway that way was to try to mitigate some of the noise over western London.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Very James Bond! I'm surprised HK hasn't done one :wink:
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It would be much more exciting if the runway ran *under* the M25, with the road being on a bridge.

    This would mean that you would look down on planes landing, and it would be like landing inside a giant net.

    SUPER COOL, huh???
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    RobD said:

    Incidentally, there's a Yorkshire aspect to the London airport (no, really). There was a piece on Look North recently about the cancelled rail projects, two of which are in Yorkshire. And £1 being spent here for every £10 in London.

    Now, you can argue about infrastructure and value to the economy, and there's a valid argument to be had, but when Yorkshire is again seeing projects cancelled (there's been a tram system hokey-cokey in Leeds several times as well as the recent railway issues) and London's biggest problem is whether to build another runway here or another runway there, the contrast may not play well.

    Tell me about it.
    Hi TSE.
    Just enquiring as to the status of the second coming of the AV thread?

    Thanks....


    titters :D
    It should have been going up this afternoon.

    I suspect it will have to be bumped because of Heathrow.

    My stint as Guest Editor ends tomorrow evening and I'm running out of time as I have three pre-prepared and one or two may have to end up on the cutting room floor.

    The pieces are on

    1) Electoral reform/AV

    2) The Greatest political master strategist of his era

    3) Trolling Analysing the Nats and Kippers in the same piece.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    The artist's impression had a tunnel. Fun traffic when construction comes around!
    Yes, the runway and parallel taxiway will be on a (bomb proof?) bridge over the M25, will certainly disrupt traffic while they build it. Also note the relocation of the M4 Spur tunnel further East.

    Loads more information at http://your.heathrow.com/takingbritainfurther/vision/
    Seriously? The run-way will be on a bridge over a motorway! I think that tells you all you need to know about how bonkers all this has become.
    It's not that bonkers - it's done elsewhere in the world.
    Well, it seems bonkers to a lay man like me. Surely in safety there is the concept of very low risk, but massive impact, for an event? In this case an aircraft misses the runway due to engine trouble and ploughs into miles of stationery M25 traffic.

    Personally, I'm yet to be convinced that we actually need extra capacity in the South (again!), but if we really do, then maybe Boris is the only one talking sense on this one.
    Most of the time the planes will be landing from the London end (i.e. into the wind), but I suspect what would be built is a big tunnel for the M25, rather than a narrow bridge.

    The bigger issue will be building it and the massive disruption to the motorway/
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    There might be a slight flaw in the Heathrow plan...
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/616152153783173120

    Traffic lights?
    Does Ibiza Airport still have traffic lights at the end of its runway?

    My solution to the extra runway problem is to build 3 (possibly 4) of them.
    This is not too much tongue in cheek.
    Extra runways at Gatwick and Stansted (possibly Luton) would help with the capacity problem and simply extending one runway at Heathrow to allow both take offs and landings simultaneously would increase the ability of Heathrow do deal with 'emergency' capacity following fog, snow, traffic control delays etc. This would make it a more reliable hub, but not materially affect its traffic. And technically it would only be 2 runways.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2858732/Plans-four-half-mile-runway-Heathrow-show.html
    Note it involves diverting the M25 into a tunnel. My version of the above plan still puts lots more capacity elsewhere and is not particularly 'pro Heathrow'. I would limit any increase in usage to a minimum but use the extra notional capacity to make Heathrow more reliable as a hub.
    Heathrow really is in the wrong place - but it's there so make the best of it without creating even more congestion.
    The last thing we should worry about is cost (ie the building of 2 additional runways) - we are stuck with a vast bill anyway and we need the capacity. We need to think ahead.

    QED:-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,045

    RobD said:

    Incidentally, there's a Yorkshire aspect to the London airport (no, really). There was a piece on Look North recently about the cancelled rail projects, two of which are in Yorkshire. And £1 being spent here for every £10 in London.

    Now, you can argue about infrastructure and value to the economy, and there's a valid argument to be had, but when Yorkshire is again seeing projects cancelled (there's been a tram system hokey-cokey in Leeds several times as well as the recent railway issues) and London's biggest problem is whether to build another runway here or another runway there, the contrast may not play well.

    Tell me about it.
    Hi TSE.
    Just enquiring as to the status of the second coming of the AV thread?

    Thanks....


    titters :D
    It should have been going up this afternoon.

    I suspect it will have to be bumped because of Heathrow.

    My stint as Guest Editor ends tomorrow evening and I'm running out of time as I have three pre-prepared and one or two may have to end up on the cutting room floor.

    The pieces are on

    1) Electoral reform/AV

    2) The Greatest political master strategist of his era

    3) Trolling Analysing the Nats and Kippers in the same piece.
    So you're telling me there is a chance? :p
This discussion has been closed.