I guess Ken Clarke won't be as lonely among party members as a whole as he sometimes appears among the parliamentary party.
There's a few Pro Europeans in the parliamentary party, such Grieve and Anna Soubry.
The Eurosceptic head bangers make all the noise.
I guess the Pro Europeans in the Tory party are a lot like me, shy, restrained, quiet, very modest and lacking self confidence.
And thoroughly dishonest. You forgot that one.
No you're thinking of Nigel Farage.
His unresignation, the latest lie to come from his mouth.
Yep Farage is dishonest. Given my comments on him before I am not sure why you thought I would have a problem with confirming that. Not your brightest retort today.
Still doesn't change the fact that slimy Europhiles like yourself are consistently dishonest about what EU membership means for the UK and what the consequences of an IN vote would be.
Try being a bit less abusive, today you've called me slimy also you've called me not very bright again, if you're going to try and win people, I suggest you read some Dale Carnegie.
I mean I hate to repost that link that shows Kippers have lower IQs than the average Tory, and the IQ of the average Kipper is only marginally higher than of the typical BNP supporter.
If you don't, you Kippers are going to make the Scot Nats look like well balanced, charming people.
I used to think you were a well balanced Kipper, and I guess you still are, with chips on both shoulders.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
That is your choice.
Or that British EUphobes are paranoid or delusional.
That is your choice.
Nope because we have facts and history on our side. We also have the examples shown on here - as we have seen this evening - where those who actually understand the law are able to show how wrong the Europhiles are on so many if their claims.
Richard: I don't think there will be a debate on the basis of facts or history. There will be a debate between "the status quo" and the "unknown". The great and the good will be on the side of the status quo, and the unknown is likely to be represented by a red faced man with a messiah complex.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
How is this any better than saying that British Europhobes are either fruitcakes, nuts or loons?
The fact you refer to the OUT side as Europhobes rather destroys any claims you might make to moral superiority. And as you so helpfully point out it was Cameron who decided to refer to those who were making a principled stand in such derogatory terms, a tradition TSE has been happy to continue.
Actually he referred to Kippers in that term, as for the terminology Europhobe is the opposite of Europhile ... -phobe and -phile are antonyms... sorry if that's not Politically Correct enough for you.
Funny though as I thought too much PC was normally the complaint?
Europhobe indicates fear. There is no fear of the EU nor of Europe. There is an opposition to it founded on observation and rational argument.
As an example; I have a huge amount of admiration for some of the founding fathers of the EEC. I disagree with and oppose much of what they stood for and believed but they held the views they did for logical and we'll considered reasons. Moreover they were absolutely honest in their aims and made no secret of their desire for a single federal state called Europe. I have no fear of such people I simply think they were wrong.
Contrast that with the 40+ years of UK membership of the EEC/EU. Based on deceit from the very start and with successive governments both Tory and Labour making false claims about our relationship with the EU whilst continuing to sign us up to ever closer union. Knowing that I'd they admitted the real nature if the relationship they would lose the support of the public and so relying on lies and misrepresentation. This continues to this day and we now have the Tories on here moving from a claimed position of see what Cameron gets to one of IN no matter what he gets.it is fundamentally dishonest.
I guess Ken Clarke won't be as lonely among party members as a whole as he sometimes appears among the parliamentary party.
There's a few Pro Europeans in the parliamentary party, such Grieve and Anna Soubry.
The Eurosceptic head bangers make all the noise.
I guess the Pro Europeans in the Tory party are a lot like me, shy, restrained, quiet, very modest and lacking self confidence.
I think a period of silence from you would be welcomed on the Conservative Party and European matters, TSE. The comments you post on the subject are infuriating, and make me want to rip up my (recently renewed) Conservative membership card.
Perhaps you're trolling for fun, but it's a massive turn-off for us OUTers who've come home in the national interest.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
How is this any better than saying that British Europhobes are either fruitcakes, nuts or loons?
The fact you refer to the OUT side as Europhobes rather destroys any claims you might make to moral superiority. And as you so helpfully point out it was Cameron who decided to refer to those who were making a principled stand in such derogatory terms, a tradition TSE has been happy to continue.
Actually he referred to Kippers in that term, as for the terminology Europhobe is the opposite of Europhile ... -phobe and -phile are antonyms... sorry if that's not Politically Correct enough for you.
Funny though as I thought too much PC was normally the complaint?
Those in favour of the EU can be called Europhiles. Whilst to describe those sceptical of the benefits of EU membership as Europhobes would be incorrect as according to Dictionary.com a phobia is an irrational fear of something. If you switch on the television and watch the news, the coverage of Greece would leave many sceptical as to whether the EU is as great as some would have you believe.
a combining form meaning “lover of,” “enthusiast for” that specified by the initial element:
I guess Ken Clarke won't be as lonely among party members as a whole as he sometimes appears among the parliamentary party.
There's a few Pro Europeans in the parliamentary party, such Grieve and Anna Soubry.
The Eurosceptic head bangers make all the noise.
I guess the Pro Europeans in the Tory party are a lot like me, shy, restrained, quiet, very modest and lacking self confidence.
And thoroughly dishonest. You forgot that one.
No you're thinking of Nigel Farage.
His unresignation, the latest lie to come from his mouth.
Yep Farage is dishonest. Given my comments on him before I am not sure why you thought I would have a problem with confirming that. Not your brightest retort today.
Still doesn't change the fact that slimy Europhiles like yourself are consistently dishonest about what EU membership means for the UK and what the consequences of an IN vote would be.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
Is it any wonder that No will do so badly.
Farage could hardly do better himself, at alienating potential supporters.
TSE is not a potential supporter.
A comment on a widely read blog is seen by more people than the person you're directly addressing!
And you assume that they will disagree with me. Those who are IN supporters will condemn me. Those who are OUT supporters will agree with me and those who are undecided on a blog like this would hopefully be making a decision based on the facts rather than on whether TSE is dishonest or I am a loon.
On topic, I suspect a good chunk of the electorate are pricing in a successful renegotiation of our relationship with the EU by Cameron into their "yes" response.
Which is sort of ironic, because they probably need to do the exact opposite to exert the necessary pressure on the EU to get it.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
How is this any better than saying that British Europhobes are either fruitcakes, nuts or loons?
The fact you refer to the OUT side as Europhobes rather destroys any claims you might make to moral superiority. And as you so helpfully point out it was Cameron who decided to refer to those who were making a principled stand in such derogatory terms, a tradition TSE has been happy to continue.
Actually he referred to Kippers in that term, as for the terminology Europhobe is the opposite of Europhile ... -phobe and -phile are antonyms... sorry if that's not Politically Correct enough for you.
Funny though as I thought too much PC was normally the complaint?
Europhobe indicates fear.
Perhaps you can define it like hydrophobic: A person with little or no affinity for the EU, tending to repel and not be affected by EU propaganda.
I guess Ken Clarke won't be as lonely among party members as a whole as he sometimes appears among the parliamentary party.
There's a few Pro Europeans in the parliamentary party, such Grieve and Anna Soubry.
The Eurosceptic head bangers make all the noise.
I guess the Pro Europeans in the Tory party are a lot like me, shy, restrained, quiet, very modest and lacking self confidence.
And thoroughly dishonest. You forgot that one.
No you're thinking of Nigel Farage.
His unresignation, the latest lie to come from his mouth.
Try being a bit less abusive, today you've called me slimy also you've called me not very bright again, if you're going to try and win people, I suggest you read some Dale Carnegie.
I mean I hate to repost that link that shows Kippers have lower IQs than the average Tory, and the IQ of the average Kipper is only marginally higher than of the typical BNP supporter.
If you don't, you Kippers are going to make the Scot Nats look like well balanced, charming people.
I used to think you were a well balanced Kipper, and I guess you still are, with chips on both shoulders.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
That is your choice.
Or that British EUphobes are paranoid or delusional.
That is your choice.
Nope because we have facts and history on our side. We also have the examples shown on here - as we have seen this evening - where those who actually understand the law are able to show how wrong the Europhiles are on so many if their claims.
Richard: I don't think there will be a debate on the basis of facts or history. There will be a debate between "the status quo" and the "unknown". The great and the good will be on the side of the status quo, and the unknown is likely to be represented by a red faced man with a messiah complex.
I don't know what the Euro or the EU will look like on Monday, yet the omniscient Mr Tyndall claims to know what it will look like in 5, 10 or 15 years time....and those who cannot see it are fools or knaves.....
A comment on a widely read blog is seen by more people than the person you're directly addressing!
And you assume that they will disagree with me. Those who are IN supporters will condemn me. Those who are OUT supporters will agree with me and those who are undecided on a blog like this would hopefully be making a decision based on the facts rather than on whether TSE is dishonest or I am a loon.
I think we had this conversation a few days ago. ;-)
But I stand by what I said then: you are one of the few posters on here, of any persuasion, who seems to have an in-depth knowledge of the EU institutions and what an in or out vote might mean. As such, I value what you say about it, as I do those few others.
However, if you come across as a loon then it devalues your views.
The problem is the facts are hard to get at unless you invest a great deal of time and energy, which most of us do not have (or would prefer to invest in researching other things (cough HS2 cough). As such, it is good to get trustworthy information from others. If you act like a loon when talking about this topic, that information appears less trustworthy.
(And yes, the above may apply to me at times as well. Or all the time).
I guess Ken Clarke won't be as lonely among party members as a whole as he sometimes appears among the parliamentary party.
There's a few Pro Europeans in the parliamentary party, such Grieve and Anna Soubry.
The Eurosceptic head bangers make all the noise.
I guess the Pro Europeans in the Tory party are a lot like me, shy, restrained, quiet, very modest and lacking self confidence.
I think a period of silence from you would be welcomed on the Conservative Party and European matters, TSE. The comments you post on the subject are infuriating, and make me want to rip up my (recently renewed) Conservative membership card.
Perhaps you're trolling for fun, but it's a massive turn-off for us OUTers who've come home in the national interest.
It really does come down to the basic principle that British Europhiles are either stupid or dishonest .
How is this any better than saying that British Europhobes are either fruitcakes, nuts or loons?
The fact you refer to the OUT side as Europhobes rather destroys any claims you might make to moral superiority. And as you so helpfully point out it was Cameron who decided to refer to those who were making a principled stand in such derogatory terms, a tradition TSE has been happy to continue.
Actually he referred to Kippers in that term, as for the terminology Europhobe is the opposite of Europhile ... -phobe and -phile are antonyms... sorry if that's not Politically Correct enough for you.
Funny though as I thought too much PC was normally the complaint?
Those in favour of the EU can be called Europhiles. Whilst to describe those sceptical of the benefits of EU membership as Europhobes would be incorrect as according to Dictionary.com a phobia is an irrational fear of something. If you switch on the television and watch the news, the coverage of Greece would leave many sceptical as to whether the EU is as great as some would have you believe.
a combining form meaning “lover of,” “enthusiast for” that specified by the initial element:
-phile isn't technically accurate for those who'd to remain in the EU either. I'm in favour of staying in the EU, but that doesn't mean I love it. I think it has flaws but we are on balance better off in than out ... that is not love any more than wanting out on balance is fear.
So don't be PC about one word while using its antonym.
Comments
Peak oil.
Peak coal.
Peak kipper.
Peak in.
Peak peak, that's what it is.
As an example; I have a huge amount of admiration for some of the founding fathers of the EEC. I disagree with and oppose much of what they stood for and believed but they held the views they did for logical and we'll considered reasons. Moreover they were absolutely honest in their aims and made no secret of their desire for a single federal state called Europe. I have no fear of such people I simply think they were wrong.
Contrast that with the 40+ years of UK membership of the EEC/EU. Based on deceit from the very start and with successive governments both Tory and Labour making false claims about our relationship with the EU whilst continuing to sign us up to ever closer union. Knowing that I'd they admitted the real nature if the relationship they would lose the support of the public and so relying on lies and misrepresentation. This continues to this day and we now have the Tories on here moving from a claimed position of see what Cameron gets to one of IN no matter what he gets.it is fundamentally dishonest.
Perhaps you're trolling for fun, but it's a massive turn-off for us OUTers who've come home in the national interest.
Just a hint.
Which is sort of ironic, because they probably need to do the exact opposite to exert the necessary pressure on the EU to get it.
Embrace your phobia.
But I stand by what I said then: you are one of the few posters on here, of any persuasion, who seems to have an in-depth knowledge of the EU institutions and what an in or out vote might mean. As such, I value what you say about it, as I do those few others.
However, if you come across as a loon then it devalues your views.
The problem is the facts are hard to get at unless you invest a great deal of time and energy, which most of us do not have (or would prefer to invest in researching other things (cough HS2 cough). As such, it is good to get trustworthy information from others. If you act like a loon when talking about this topic, that information appears less trustworthy.
(And yes, the above may apply to me at times as well. Or all the time).
-phile isn't technically accurate for those who'd to remain in the EU either. I'm in favour of staying in the EU, but that doesn't mean I love it. I think it has flaws but we are on balance better off in than out ... that is not love any more than wanting out on balance is fear.
So don't be PC about one word while using its antonym.