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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is this the Old Etonian you should be backing as next Tory

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited June 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is this the Old Etonian you should be backing as next Tory leader?

One of the main challenges for the Tory Party at the next election is holding on to all those voters dubbed the Blue Liberals in the marginals and the previously Lib Dem held seats which are now Tory seats. Without David Cameron, that challenge becomes harder, but who best to appeal to those voters?

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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2015
    First!

    ...to point out that he will be mayor of London, or an unsuccessful loser.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    I can't see it happening - his extreme Greenery would be anathema to the business-friendly part of the Tory coalition.

    Also, if he wins in London then he will be busy being Mayor and if he loses then he hasn't done so well after all.

    But stranger things have happened.

    What is his position on Europe? Is he his father's son on that at least?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Zac will never be leader for one reason: his threat to resign over Heathrow.

    A leader needs to be able to lead, and for people to loyally follow him. When they do not - for instance Major's bastards or the Blairites in Brown's camp - the party gets into trouble.

    By threatening to resign over Heathrow, Zac is proving he might be a good constituency MP, but is showing disloyalty to the party. If he was leader, MPs would be asking themselves why they cannot behave in the same way.

    I actually quite like it when an MP goes against his/her party, and especially when they think it is the wish of their constituents. It means they're a good MP. But they would not necessarily make a good party leader for the same reason.

    There is another old Etonian in parliament who might fit the bill rather well, though ...
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Zac has done brilliantly as a constituency MP. But I have not seen one jot of evidence of his ability to extend his appeal beyond the not particularly representative electorate of Richmond Park. I have been surprised by the way his odds have come in for Mayor, but I still can't see how he can win over the parts of London that are not rich, leafy suburbs disturbed by the noise of jumbo jets.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Not so sure, TSE. "The Tories could resurrect their old slogan of Vote Blue, Go Green with Zac as leader. ..."

    Without the Lib Dems to keep them under control, the unfettered Tory have bolted off to destroy whatever green credentials they more or less had. On environmental matters, the Tories are holed below the waterline.

    The "sunshine and happiness" Conservatives, so carefully crafted by Mr Cameron all those years ago, are splitting and are sunk.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    PClipp said:

    Not so sure, TSE. "The Tories could resurrect their old slogan of Vote Blue, Go Green with Zac as leader. ..."

    Without the Lib Dems to keep them under control, the unfettered Tory have bolted off to destroy whatever green credentials they more or less had. On environmental matters, the Tories are holed below the waterline.

    The "sunshine and happiness" Conservatives, so carefully crafted by Mr Cameron all those years ago, are splitting and are sunk.

    In what ways have the unfettered Tories bolted off?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    edited June 2015
    They´ve taken the lid off fracking, for a start, Mr Jessop. Are hell-bent on developing Heathrow even more. And are cutting back on sources of renewable energy. Have more or less abolished any kind of planning controls. Is that enough to be going on with?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    P CLIPP Nonsense..where has fracking been given total freedom..has the decision about Heathrow been made yet..and there has just been an announcement for a massive tidal barrier in Wales.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited June 2015
    FPT:
    dugarbandier said:

    Moses_ said:

    Well Snowden appears to have achieved his aim

    Sky News

    Britain has been forced to withdraw intelligence agents from operations because Russia and China have obtained access to secret information in files stolen by whistleblower Edward Snowden, according to senior government sources.

    Yeah, cause if we had been operationally compromised, we would definitely announce that to our enemies via international media
    Of course if we were trying to get the snoopers charter through parliament and it looked like it might (deservedly) get a bit of a rough ride...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,772
    JosiasJessop said:

    When they do not - for instance Major's bastards or the Blairites in Brown's camp - the party gets into trouble.

    The biggest of the 'bastards' was IDS, and it didn't stop him becoming leader - indeed, quite the reverse. Admittedly the circumstances were different and I'm not suggesting he was a smash-hit success as leader, but I don't think Cameron has been so popular that people in the Conservative party will weep salt tears over someone who has stood up to him.

    Macmillan and Thatcher were both quite good at going against the party line as well and that helped them get the leadership - indeed, in Thatcher's case it's hard to see how she would have become leader at all if she hadn't been so truculent and disloyal towards Heath. Even Eden had his moments.

    Generally speaking the most successful politicians are semi-principled opportunists - people who can win support by making principled stands, but know when to ditch principles if it's necessary to gain power. I don't know enough about Goldsmith to judge whether he fits that bill or not.

    The main reason I'm sceptical about him is not his background or his rebellious streak - it's the fact that he's never held a government post so he is not so much inexperienced as unexperienced. I would be very surprised if the next Tory leader is not at the very least currently a Minister of State.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure I can see Zac Goldsmith winning over much of the country beyond the south. But if Labour are in shambles/elect a Miliband leader he might be able to win by default.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    PClipp said:

    They´ve taken the lid off fracking, for a start, Mr Jessop. Are hell-bent on developing Heathrow even more. And are cutting back on sources of renewable energy. Have more or less abolished any kind of planning controls. Is that enough to be going on with?

    You sound like your politics fit better with the Greens than the Lib Dems.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    ST reporting Dominic Cummings will be Tories NO campaign lead. He was behind No2AV, No2 regional assemblies and various NoEuro stuff too. Old SPAD of Gove. They refer to him as a bovver boy! http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1568687.ece
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I love greenies who never take a flight,switch on the gas or electricity, drive a car,eat foreign grown food,like street lighting,use elevators,escalators Air conditioning, heating appliances, burn garden rubbish,use plastic bags.. etc .
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Didn't Mr Smithson say that Dave was the last time the Tories would elect an Old Etonian as leader...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Plato, must say I loathe this 'No2' business.

    Mr. Dodd, indeed, like Caroline Lucas jetting off all over the place.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Root, that might've been before Cameron confounded expectations and got a shock majority, ending the leadership of three others (although Farage's departure was rather brief).
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    A few years ago - I had some delightful Greenie friends who made their own toothpaste - they were concerned about the chemicals in the shop bought varieties. Not a pushy or worthy bone in their bodies and superb fun. Shame so many prefer to hector instead.
    richardDodd said:

    I love greenies who never take a flight,switch on the gas or electricity, drive a car,eat foreign grown food,like street lighting,use elevators,escalators Air conditioning, heating appliances, burn garden rubbish,use plastic bags.. etc .

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Re Zac - Tory leader? Pfft.

    He's got the zeal of someone who has a great deal of money and a pet hobbyhorse. That he's never had a *job* in HMG tells me that he likes being awkward. That's fair enough - we need folks that rub against the grain, but he's no leader.

    He reminds me of Carswell, rather than Look At Me David Davis.

    PS Piece in Times yesterday about How To Succeed At Eton from the headmaster there > http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/magazine/article4464808.ece
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    richardDodd said:

    P CLIPP Nonsense..where has fracking been given total freedom..has the decision about Heathrow been made yet..and there has just been an announcement for a massive tidal barrier in Wales.

    "The inclusion in the budget is a triumph for Ed Davey, the energy and climate change secretary, who has been pushing the Swansea Bay project in the face of initial scepticism from Osborne and the Treasury."
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/17/budget-2015-george-osborne-announce-uk-tidal-power-scheme
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    pLATO In my house we are extremely careful about what we eat and drink...mainly organic food and home grown... without pesticides etc.
    I do love the way International Greenies feel the need to congregate in far flung places where they gather to discuss the terrible habits of other people..who want to fly to foreign climes for their hollies.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    edited June 2015
    In a presidential system the rare charismatic politicians like Zac have an advantage. He also has a policy platform. Although this may prove to be both a help and a hindrance, but will at least be a refreshing change from conservatism.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Nothing was funnier than Hopenhagen... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29843498


    Yes - the ghost of "Hopenhagen" still sends shivers through the timbers of the most seasoned IPCC'er.

    Back in 2009, greens and others went blue from the cold as they queued to get into the not-very Bella centre, site of the UN talks that were meant to deliver a new global deal.

    Being frozen out was an apt metaphor for what was to come.

    Copenhagen, or Hopenhagen as it was cloyingly dubbed, was a meeting that was meant to "save the planet".

    It ended in farce and failure.
    richardDodd said:

    pLATO In my house we are extremely careful about what we eat and drink...mainly organic food and home grown... without pesticides etc.
    I do love the way International Greenies feel the need to congregate in far flung places where they gather to discuss the terrible habits of other people..who want to fly to foreign climes for their hollies.

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Meanwhile in Labourleaderland.

    Former Labour Minister Frank Field and eight fellow senior MPs have written to party chiefs urging them to make it much easier to sack failing Labour leaders. Under their proposal, if 30 anonymous Labour MPs call for a vote of confidence in the leader and the leader loses, he or she would be out.

    Writing in today’s Mail on Sunday Mr Field says Labour must be ruthless with ‘deadbeat’ leaders. ‘We made catastrophic errors with Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband,’ he writes. ‘It was impossible to change them when we were hurtling towards defeat.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123136/Labour-plot-bring-David-Miliband-second-raters-fail.html#ixzz3d1IrWf2c
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Plato, the planet has somehow struggled on since then :p

    Mr. Moses, a perhaps interesting move. I wonder if the party bigwigs will approve.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited June 2015
    Logical Song .. And it took just a couple of weeks for the Conservative Government to implement the scheme.. I wonder what stopped the Coalition from doing it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Just procrastinating/checking Twitter, and Hulkenberg seems to be getting many thumbs up for his Le Mans performance (16/24 hours in, I think). I hope this helps his prospects of a top seat in F1, he's a good chap.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm watching a docu about bird fossils... anything to stave off putting out the bin bags.
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Just procrastinating/checking Twitter...

  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,179
    I could well see Zac as a Tory leader.

    But not the next one, assuming the vacancy arises in or around 2018.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Plato, it's the weird stuff that can be most enticing. Superhero lore on Wikipedia, or reading about vanadium impurities making Damascus steel so strong, etc.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    I've the random page thingy turned on Wikipedia - read some amazing stuff. How we ever discovered that the copper based blood horseshoe crabs can be used to clean vaccines is just so weird. Modern day dinosaurs saving lives.
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Miss Plato, it's the weird stuff that can be most enticing. Superhero lore on Wikipedia, or reading about vanadium impurities making Damascus steel so strong, etc.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Plato, quite a lot of people think birds should be reclassified as avian dinosaurs. For that matter, some are irked that Jurassic World still doesn't have feathery dinosaurs.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Miss Plato, quite a lot of people think birds should be reclassified as avian dinosaurs. For that matter, some are irked that Jurassic World still doesn't have feathery dinosaurs.

    In fairness apparently they did have feathers but also in fairness it is as sequel to movies made before we knew that I think, so it'd look odd. Maybe if it was a remake.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Wonderful storm here today T and L..lotsa rain..Farmers are dancing in the fields
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Can anyone point me to any analysis done yet about who switched to which party at GE2010. There was so much talk of the LD2010 switchers to Labour but it doesn't look like they did!!
    In fact since all the polling was way off beam, its difficult to know from polls leading up to the GE who was voting for whom.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    From what I've seen - birds are avian dinosaurs - but then so are lots of other animals today, so it gets a bit pointless.

    There's a fascinating bit in this docu about clawed wing birds that live in the Amazon. They use them to climb trees, then float downwards. For anyone interested - it'll be on iPlayer BBC4 Fossil Wonderland Ep 2 of 3.
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Miss Plato, quite a lot of people think birds should be reclassified as avian dinosaurs. For that matter, some are irked that Jurassic World still doesn't have feathery dinosaurs.

  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 733
    Birds (class Aves and clade Avialae) are highly advanced theropod dinosaurs, characterised by feathers, a beak with no teeth, the laying of hard-shelled eggs, a high metabolic rate, a four-chambered heart, and a lightweight but strong skeleton.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,690
    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Just watched that programme on iPlayer. Interesting stuff. I remember from a BBC series some years ago that after the dinosaurs fell there was a brief period of avian dominance, with two-legged carnivorous land birds the size of a horse.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    SquareRoot said:

    Can anyone point me to any analysis done yet about who switched to which party at GE2010. There was so much talk of the LD2010 switchers to Labour but it doesn't look like they did!!
    In fact since all the polling was way off beam, its difficult to know from polls leading up to the GE who was voting for whom.

    According to one estimate (Byrne), we only picked up 1 in 13 ex-LDs. Certrainly it didn't prove to be the expected motherlode. Because it has always been hard to find people who identify positively as LDs in non-LD seats, it's hard to be sure.
    richardDodd said:

    I love greenies who never take a flight,switch on the gas or electricity, drive a car,eat foreign grown food,like street lighting,use elevators,escalators Air conditioning, heating appliances, burn garden rubbish,use plastic bags.. etc .

    A fond memory from Switzerland is an elderly colleague who with difficulty would determinedly walk up three flights of stairs to his office every day. I asked him why he didn't use the lift. "I voted against nuclear power, and one should try to be consistent," he said. Awesome.

    It was one incident among several that made me think that referenda really work in making more people feel engaged in the decisions, rather than thinking of politics as something is done to them.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    NickPalmer said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Can anyone point me to any analysis done yet about who switched to which party at GE2010. There was so much talk of the LD2010 switchers to Labour but it doesn't look like they did!!
    In fact since all the polling was way off beam, its difficult to know from polls leading up to the GE who was voting for whom.

    According to one estimate (Byrne), we only picked up 1 in 13 ex-LDs. Certrainly it didn't prove to be the expected motherlode. Because it has always been hard to find people who identify positively as LDs in non-LD seats, it's hard to be sure.
    richardDodd said:

    I love greenies who never take a flight,switch on the gas or electricity, drive a car,eat foreign grown food,like street lighting,use elevators,escalators Air conditioning, heating appliances, burn garden rubbish,use plastic bags.. etc .

    A fond memory from Switzerland is an elderly colleague who with difficulty would determinedly walk up three flights of stairs to his office every day. I asked him why he didn't use the lift. "I voted against nuclear power, and one should try to be consistent," he said. Awesome.

    It was one incident among several that made me think that referenda really work in making more people feel engaged in the decisions, rather than thinking of politics as something is done to them.

    Thank you NP.. I just found this via google it would appear that an initial finding is that lefty voters unhappy with Ed's message went ukip whilst it was the economy stupid in the rest of England ex london especially the marginals where the swing confounded the received wisdom prior to 7 May 2015


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/election-2015-where-the-votes-switched-and-why
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There's a piece in the ST from Liam Byrne saying that Labour failed the grey vote and had nothing to say to them - so 2m voted Tory instead.

    And he echoed the Kipper loss comments, and also Tories very prominent Blue Collar appeals.
    SquareRoot said:

    NickPalmer said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Can anyone point me to any analysis done yet about who switched to which party at GE2010. There was so much talk of the LD2010 switchers to Labour but it doesn't look like they did!!
    In fact since all the polling was way off beam, its difficult to know from polls leading up to the GE who was voting for whom.

    According to one estimate (Byrne), we only picked up 1 in 13 ex-LDs. Certrainly it didn't prove to be the expected motherlode. Because it has always been hard to find people who identify positively as LDs in non-LD seats, it's hard to be sure.
    richardDodd said:

    I love greenies who never take a flight,switch on the gas or electricity, drive a car,eat foreign grown food,like street lighting,use elevators,escalators Air conditioning, heating appliances, burn garden rubbish,use plastic bags.. etc .

    A fond memory from Switzerland is an elderly colleague who with difficulty would determinedly walk up three flights of stairs to his office every day. I asked him why he didn't use the lift. "I voted against nuclear power, and one should try to be consistent," he said. Awesome.

    It was one incident among several that made me think that referenda really work in making more people feel engaged in the decisions, rather than thinking of politics as something is done to them.

    Thank you NP.. I just found this via google it would appear that an initial finding is that lefty voters unhappy with Ed's message went ukip whilst it was the economy stupid in the rest of England ex london especially the marginals where the swing confounded the received wisdom prior to 7 May 2015


    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/10/election-2015-where-the-votes-switched-and-why
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Miss Plato, quite a lot of people think birds should be reclassified as avian dinosaurs. For that matter, some are irked that Jurassic World still doesn't have feathery dinosaurs.

    Judging by the adverts, 'Jurassic World' itself seems to have evolved on from dinosaurs merely eating evil lawyers sat on the toilet to devouring paying members of the public. Something of a regression in fact.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 322
    I think that you have focussed on the wrong Old Etonian; Rees-Mogg is the man.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
    ISTR that back in Victorian times a new species of large dinosaur was discovered and reconstructed in a museum. Years later more finds showed them that they actually had the bones totally the wrong way around.

    The science will have changed a lot since those days.

    Annoyingly, I cannot remember which dinosaur it was, or which museum. So this might in fact be a very unreliable memory...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The head was on the wrong end. It's in the National History Museum in the US. The two experts involved were bitter rivals and one attempted to destroy the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_Wars
    Marsh humiliated Cope by pointing out his reconstruction of the plesiosaur Elasmosaurus was flawed, with the head placed where the tail should have been (or so he claimed, 20 years later;[9] it was Leidy who published the correction shortly afterwards).[10] Cope, in turn, began collecting in what Marsh considered his private bone-hunting turf in Kansas and in Wyoming, further damaging their relationship.[8][11]
    Cope and Marsh were financially and socially ruined by their attempts to disgrace each other, but their contributions to science and the field of paleontology were massive, and provided substantial material for further work—both scientists left behind many unopened boxes of fossils after their deaths. The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid. The products of the Bone Wars resulted in an increase in knowledge of prehistoric life, and sparked the public's interest in dinosaurs, leading to continued fossil excavation in North America in the decades to follow. Several historical books and fictional adaptations have been published about this period of intense fossil-hunting activity.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
    ISTR that back in Victorian times a new species of large dinosaur was discovered and reconstructed in a museum. Years later more finds showed them that they actually had the bones totally the wrong way around.

    The science will have changed a lot since those days.

    Annoyingly, I cannot remember which dinosaur it was, or which museum. So this might in fact be a very unreliable memory...
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Plato said:

    ST reporting Dominic Cummings will be Tories NO campaign lead. He was behind No2AV, No2 regional assemblies and various NoEuro stuff too. Old SPAD of Gove. They refer to him as a bovver boy! http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/Politics/article1568687.ece

    Amazing you can decide to say 'no' before knowing the results of negotiations. Given such clear determination then Mr Cummings must have a well thought out and foolproof alternative that is significantly better.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jeremy WHINE

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123192/BLACK-DOG-Vine-s-whines-Tory-triumph.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,504
    Plato said:

    The head was on the wrong end. It's in the National History Museum in the US. The two experts involved were bitter rivals and one attempted to destroy the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_Wars

    Marsh humiliated Cope by pointing out his reconstruction of the plesiosaur Elasmosaurus was flawed, with the head placed where the tail should have been (or so he claimed, 20 years later;[9] it was Leidy who published the correction shortly afterwards).[10] Cope, in turn, began collecting in what Marsh considered his private bone-hunting turf in Kansas and in Wyoming, further damaging their relationship.[8][11]
    Cope and Marsh were financially and socially ruined by their attempts to disgrace each other, but their contributions to science and the field of paleontology were massive, and provided substantial material for further work—both scientists left behind many unopened boxes of fossils after their deaths. The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid. The products of the Bone Wars resulted in an increase in knowledge of prehistoric life, and sparked the public's interest in dinosaurs, leading to continued fossil excavation in North America in the decades to follow. Several historical books and fictional adaptations have been published about this period of intense fossil-hunting activity.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
    ISTR that back in Victorian times a new species of large dinosaur was discovered and reconstructed in a museum. Years later more finds showed them that they actually had the bones totally the wrong way around.

    The science will have changed a lot since those days.

    Annoyingly, I cannot remember which dinosaur it was, or which museum. So this might in fact be a very unreliable memory...


    That sounds a bit like it, thanks,. but my memory has it as being a land-based dinosaur. Mind you, I bet such mistakes were quite common in the early days - did the people doing the reconstructions know the context of how they were found along with the bones?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    richardDodd said:

    Logical Song .. And it took just a couple of weeks for the Conservative Government to implement the scheme.. I wonder what stopped the Coalition from doing it.

    Wow, it's implemented already? That's really quick, how much electricity is it producing?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    They seemed to be flying blind. There was another dinosaur that looked small and almost jellyfish like - it was subsequently discovered that *four* new dinosaurs were actually bits of the same one. A bit like trying to build a platypus and getting it understandibly wrong at first.

    EDIT - there's another one that the scientists had upside down and thought the spines were legs/legs were spines. It must be a nightmare to work out WTF is going on with some of them.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Plato said:

    The head was on the wrong end. It's in the National History Museum in the US. The two experts involved were bitter rivals and one attempted to destroy the other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_Wars

    snip
    Cope and Marsh were financially and socially ruined by their attempts to disgrace each other, but their contributions to science and the field of paleontology were massive, and provided substantial material for further work—both scientists left behind many unopened boxes of fossils after their deaths. The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid. The products of the Bone Wars resulted in an increase in knowledge of prehistoric life, and sparked the public's interest in dinosaurs, leading to continued fossil excavation in North America in the decades to follow. Several historical books and fictional adaptations have been published about this period of intense fossil-hunting activity.
    JosiasJessop said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
    snip

    The science will have changed a lot since those days.

    Annoyingly, I cannot remember which dinosaur it was, or which museum. So this might in fact be a very unreliable memory...


    That sounds a bit like it, thanks,. but my memory has it as being a land-based dinosaur. Mind you, I bet such mistakes were quite common in the early days - did the people doing the reconstructions know the context of how they were found along with the bones?

  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    OT
    David Smith in The Sunday Times points out ... ''Scottish Nationalists hoping to build an economic future on North Sea oil will have discovered that the cupboard is bare. The OBR expects only £2bn of North Sea revenues in the 20 years from 2020 – in total – down £37bn from the OBR’s assessment a year ago.''

    On topic, Mr TSE is having a little bit of a cheeky Sunday Morning laugh
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @kiranstacey: Don't seem to be any ministers on the Sunday shows today. Craig Oliver's clampdown on media appearances continues...

    I hadn't noticed, but it does beg the question why Chris Leslie is on SP. The next big economic statement in still a month away, he won't be shadow chancellor after September, he is not a candidate in any race. Why bother?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Logical Song..The scheme has been given the green light and will take a number of years before it produces anything.. now why did the Coalition not do that..
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Scott_P said:

    @kiranstacey: Don't seem to be any ministers on the Sunday shows today. Craig Oliver's clampdown on media appearances continues...

    I hadn't noticed, but it does beg the question why Chris Leslie is on SP. The next big economic statement in still a month away, he won't be shadow chancellor after September, he is not a candidate in any race. Why bother?

    What is the purpose of Chris Leslie?
    A shining example of the future Leaders of the Labour party?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Speaking of dinosaurs, has anyone else watched Wayward Pines so far? It's got a strange storyline - Jurassic Park mixed with Stepford Wives. Just finished catching up on Tarantino based Dawn til Dusk TV version - really liked that one and waiting for S2 in a few weeks.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    He's been around as a talking head for ages - but I just ignore him. He's got no presence and just spouts the Party line without adding anything to it.
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Scott_P said:

    @kiranstacey: Don't seem to be any ministers on the Sunday shows today. Craig Oliver's clampdown on media appearances continues...

    I hadn't noticed, but it does beg the question why Chris Leslie is on SP. The next big economic statement in still a month away, he won't be shadow chancellor after September, he is not a candidate in any race. Why bother?

    What is the purpose of Chris Leslie?
    A shining example of the future Leaders of the Labour party?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    What is the purpose of Chris Leslie?

    To make Chuka look good?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JosiasJessop said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Jonathan said:

    Modern animals drawn from their skeletons (much as dinosaurs) by paleoartists using their techniques.

    Implications, we have no idea what dinosaurs look like if we can't get a baboon right

    http://m.imgur.com/a/BEz4r

    Except we have fossil examples of number of dinosaur genera showing fur and feathers so we do have a good idea of what those individuals looked like.
    ISTR that back in Victorian times a new species of large dinosaur was discovered and reconstructed in a museum. Years later more finds showed them that they actually had the bones totally the wrong way around.

    The science will have changed a lot since those days.

    Annoyingly, I cannot remember which dinosaur it was, or which museum. So this might in fact be a very unreliable memory...
    That's the premise of a Curious George cartoon...

    I think you may still be in baby haze :)

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plato said:

    The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid.

    Sounds a bit like Vince Cable's record of predicting 8 of the last 3 recessions...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    Reports in Times that TVLF is to be frozen for 5yrs... = £500m cut.
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :smiley:
    Charles said:

    Plato said:

    The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid.

    Sounds a bit like Vince Cable's record of predicting 8 of the last 3 recessions...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,155
    richardDodd said:

    Logical Song..The scheme has been given the green light and will take a number of years before it produces anything.. now why did the Coalition not do that..

    Probably down to the relevant Lib Dems not liking the scheme. Tidal generating systems upset quite a few in the green movement.

    A larger problem in this area is the Politicians Pet Scheme. Wind power was promoted because you could put up nice big windmills now. The fact that performance/cost was constrained by physical limits was ignored. But you could have something to show for the next election.

    By comparison solar has been improved at 6-8% per year, compound, over decades now. There are plenty of improvements in pipeline. We are actually at the point where solar is just about competitive with coal/gas without subsidy.

    The other part of the puzzle - storage - is being driven by the electric car revolution. Again, batteries have been improving at 6-8% per year, compound. The preferred solution of the oil companies and government, hydrogen, has stalled despite billions being spent. Again, due to basic physical factors.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: "We don't have a policy on the Mansion Tax currently." ChrisLeslieMP drops strong hint Labour will ditch Ed Mili's totemic policy #bbcsp
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Plato said:

    He's been around as a talking head for ages - but I just ignore him. He's got no presence and just spouts the Party line without adding anything to it.

    TCPoliticalBetting said:

    Scott_P said:

    @kiranstacey: Don't seem to be any ministers on the Sunday shows today. Craig Oliver's clampdown on media appearances continues...

    I hadn't noticed, but it does beg the question why Chris Leslie is on SP. The next big economic statement in still a month away, he won't be shadow chancellor after September, he is not a candidate in any race. Why bother?

    What is the purpose of Chris Leslie?
    A shining example of the future Leaders of the Labour party?
    "He's got no presence and just spouts the Party line without adding anything to it."
    I agree but maybe a large % of voters think differently?
    But if not, is he a male version of Hazel Blears?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Chris Leslie still desperately fighting, and losing, the last war...

    "Were you borrowing too much?"

    "That didn't cause the banking crisis..."
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And on Jurassic World
    They argue that while the film has helped renew interest in dinosaurs, the plot provides a bizarre notion of how creatures lived in the Jurassic era.

    Among the most cited inaccuracies are how T-Rex can't see you if you stay perfectly still, and how Velociraptors can open doors.

    But the scientist behind the film, Jack Horner, argues that many of these criticisms are based on opinion rather than fact.

    'I would disagree with that, Raptors can open doors, they certainly have the hands and arms,' he told DailyMail.com.

    'We have no idea how smart the dinosaurs were..It's just their opinion. And most animals can't identify a human being if they've never seen one, and if you stand still.'

    However, James Kirkland, who has been involved in the discovery of 20 dinosaurs, takes particular issue with the film's version of raptors.

    He claims Jurassic World portrays them almost as cute creatures compared with the monster fossils that he's found during digs.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3120652/Jurassic-Park-simply-dumb-monster-movie-Paleontologists-slam-Hollywood-blockbuster-glaring-errors.html#ixzz3d1zIxuvL
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    George Osborne is standing in for Cameron at PMQs this week, for the first time.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Swiss media claim Sepp Blatter is reconsidering his decision to quit
    Sources close to the Blatter said he has strong support in Africa and Asia
    Blatter is due to resign as FIFA president once his replacement is elected
    The FIFA president announced on June 2 his plan to step down


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123245/Sepp-Blatter-planning-RESIGN-receiving-support-African-Asian-football-federations-claim-Swiss-media.html#ixzz3d21RpSjj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Charles said:

    Plato said:

    The efforts of the two men led to over 142 new species of dinosaurs being discovered and described, though today only 32 are valid.

    Sounds a bit like Vince Cable's record of predicting 8 of the last 3 recessions...
    Said about economists and used by Vince Cable rather than predicted by Vince cable.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    That tweet is bullocks. I just rewound the SP to that point all Neill says is that No Govt Minister was available. No empty chair in sight.. The politics of perception eh!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scott_P said:

    @kiranstacey: Don't seem to be any ministers on the Sunday shows today. Craig Oliver's clampdown on media appearances continues...

    I hadn't noticed, but it does beg the question why Chris Leslie is on SP. The next big economic statement in still a month away, he won't be shadow chancellor after September, he is not a candidate in any race. Why bother?

    He is part of the transition of the Labour party from being the left wing shouty party to being the reasonable man's party in the centre - effectively back to Blairism.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @MTIMT thanks for the FIFA joke.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    HMG empty-chaired the BBC?
    SquareRoot said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    That tweet is bullocks. I just rewound the SP to that point all Neill says is that No Govt Minister was available. No empty chair in sight.. The politics of perception eh!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scott_P said:

    Chris Leslie still desperately fighting, and losing, the last war...

    "Were you borrowing too much?"

    "That didn't cause the banking crisis..."

    Chris Leslie is correct. Excess government borrowing did not cause the banking crisis. However, it meant we were in a less strong position to apply Keynes solution of increasing government spending during a recession.

    We are now in an even worse position to counter the next recession since the government debt has doubled since the start of the last recession.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Plato said:

    Reports in Times that TVLF is to be frozen for 5yrs... = £500m cut.

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    Whilst inflation is zero, freezing does not result in a real terms cut.

    Zero inflation makes it harder to increase tax or reduce spending by stealth.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    I'd like to see prosecutions myself.
    New laws are to be rushed through Parliament aimed at sparing girls from female genital mutilation (FGM).

    David Cameron said urgent action was needed to tackle the 'barbaric practice' and legislation would be brought forward early.

    Charities said the measures, which would be introduced before the school summer holidays next month, would help prevent vulnerable young females from being taken abroad for the procedure.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3123445/Cameron-orders-laws-tackle-female-genital-mutilation-stop-British-girls-taken-abroad-summer-holidays.html#ixzz3d28fPY00
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    In his Election Notebook dad-of-three Robinson also reveals how supporters of Scottish independence took to social media to say he deserved to have a tumour on his lung.

    He added: “When it was reported I was ill there were some pretty foul tweets saying ‘I hope he dies’.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/uk/nick-robinson-was-scared-by-independence-referendum-attacks-1.883912
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    SquareRoot said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    That tweet is bullocks. I just rewound the SP to that point all Neill says is that No Govt Minister was available. No empty chair in sight.. The politics of perception eh!
    Any lie will do for Scott, he has his orders.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The tweet was from Tom Newton Dunn.. not Scott P
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    malcolmg said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    That tweet is bullocks. I just rewound the SP to that point all Neill says is that No Govt Minister was available. No empty chair in sight.. The politics of perception eh!
    Any lie will do for Scott, he has his orders.
    errr I don't think scott p tweeted it,, he used it for something else
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    edited June 2015
    CarlottaVance said:

    In his Election Notebook dad-of-three Robinson also reveals how supporters of Scottish independence took to social media to say he deserved to have a tumour on his lung.

    He added: “When it was reported I was ill there were some pretty foul tweets saying ‘I hope he dies’.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/uk/nick-robinson-was-scared-by-independence-referendum-attacks-1.883912

    Sad bitter twisted tax haven exile keeps up the good work. You must spend most of your life trawling the gutter press trying to find any comment against Scotland and SNP.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    In his Election Notebook dad-of-three Robinson also reveals how supporters of Scottish independence took to social media to say he deserved to have a tumour on his lung.

    He added: “When it was reported I was ill there were some pretty foul tweets saying ‘I hope he dies’.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/uk/nick-robinson-was-scared-by-independence-referendum-attacks-1.883912

    Sad bitter twisted tax haven exile keeps up the good work.
    Insecure frustrated separatist with nothing to add - you do know every time someone writes 'Cybernats are not nasty' you disprove them, don't you?

    I think you're an MI5 plant, myself.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    SquareRoot said:

    malcolmg said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: So @afneil on #bbcsp becomes the 3rd BBC outlet to 'empty chair' govt this am, after @AndrewMarr9 and @JPonpolitics. No ministers put up.

    How's that charter renewal going then...?

    That tweet is bullocks. I just rewound the SP to that point all Neill says is that No Govt Minister was available. No empty chair in sight.. The politics of perception eh!
    Any lie will do for Scott, he has his orders.
    errr I don't think scott p tweeted it,, he used it for something else
    errr where did I say he did, I know that well enough , he is not bright enough to have thought it up , every post of his is a retweet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,509
    richardDodd said:

    The tweet was from Tom Newton Dunn.. not Scott P

    Richard I am well aware of that and never said he had, I merely stated he will use any slanted/incorrect retweet in his slavish support of Tories, it is his modus operandi.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Leave MG alone...he is a very funny lad..makes me laugh...
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    The LibDems have finally lost the plot, having been savaged by the electorate in the H of C, they are reduced to boasting about their vast over representation in the House of Lords:

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/liberal-democrat-committee-appointments-in-the-lords-spotlight-the-talent-on-our-benches-46415.html#utm_source=tweet&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,155
    malcolmg said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    In his Election Notebook dad-of-three Robinson also reveals how supporters of Scottish independence took to social media to say he deserved to have a tumour on his lung.

    He added: “When it was reported I was ill there were some pretty foul tweets saying ‘I hope he dies’.

    http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/uk/nick-robinson-was-scared-by-independence-referendum-attacks-1.883912

    Sad bitter twisted tax haven exile keeps up the good work. You must spend most of your life trawling the gutter press trying to find any comment against Scotland and SNP.
    "Sad bitter twisted tax haven exile keeps up the good work."

    Why the praise for Sean Connery?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    He'll 'rue the day', to borrow an expression:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11673678/David-Starkey-criticised-after-comparing-SNP-to-Nazis.html

    How will Cybernattery respond?

    'We won't dignify such foolish remarks with comment'?

    Or something less temperate.....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    New Tory MP branded a 'Nazi' and 'slag' by SNP supporters after making a joke about Oliver Cromwell's suppression of Scots in her maiden Commons speech http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3122934/New-Tory-MP-branded-Nazi-slag-SNP-supporters.html
    CarlottaVance said:

    He'll 'rue the day', to borrow an expression:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11673678/David-Starkey-criticised-after-comparing-SNP-to-Nazis.html

    How will Cybernattery respond?

    'We won't dignify such foolish remarks with comment'?

    Or something less temperate.....

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Plato said:

    New Tory MP branded a 'Nazi' and 'slag' by SNP supporters after making a joke about Oliver Cromwell's suppression of Scots in her maiden Commons speech http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3122934/New-Tory-MP-branded-Nazi-slag-SNP-supporters.html
    CarlottaVance said:

    He'll 'rue the day', to borrow an expression:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11673678/David-Starkey-criticised-after-comparing-SNP-to-Nazis.html

    How will Cybernattery respond?

    'We won't dignify such foolish remarks with comment'?

    Or something less temperate.....



    it was a mistake to apologise to SNP trolls/bully boys.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Couple of interesting snippets from the end of Sunday Politics.

    Polly says Osborne would be Labour's dream candidate for Tory leader. I have topped up on that news.

    Tom Newton-Dunn says Osborne will announce new policy at PMQs. I wonder if it will be the one MarqueeMark hinted at?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour: Danczuk on Burnham:"The logical conclusion is you end up at the Sheffield Rally shouting 'we're alright' when we're clearly not alright."
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited June 2015
    malcolmg said:

    richardDodd said:

    The tweet was from Tom Newton Dunn.. not Scott P

    Richard I am well aware of that and never said he had, I merely stated he will use any slanted/incorrect retweet in his slavish support of Tories, it is his modus operandi.
    Sounds rather like yours, mutatis mutandis
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SkyNewsBreak: AFP: Space agencies say Europe's comet probe #Philae has woken up
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    edited June 2015
    @Plato

    'New Tory MP branded a 'Nazi' and 'slag' by SNP supporters after making a joke about Oliver Cromwell's suppression of Scots in her maiden Commons speech'

    They always need to find something to be offended and outraged about.

    The sooner they get FFA the better then they will have something to really whine about.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited June 2015
    @Plato re the photo of the sailing warship and the modern destroyer. Today USS Gabrielle Giffords was christened - the first warship with no guns. The first image I posted did not work. Here is one of a sister ship (Independence) which has one gun.

    http://cronkitenews.asu.edu/assets/images/12/02/10-giffords-ship2-full.jpg
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Nah.

    David Cameron is going to retire from the ring undefeated in 3 or 4 years time. That is a continuity candidate scenario if there ever was one. Continuity means an established cabinet minister with some TV personality and a perceived ability to reach out to the successful coalition of centre right voters Cameron has built.

    That means Osborne, Hunt, Javid or anyone else who really manages to shine in cabinet office during this Parliament. In the unlikely event that he wins Mayor Zac will not even be an MP. And if he doesn't why on earth would the Tories want a loser as leader?
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