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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The government should accept the SNP’s demands for FFA

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited June 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The government should accept the SNP’s demands for FFA

The referendum was never going to be the end of the story and neither was the declaration of the unionist parties to implement the recommendations of the Smith commission. The closeness of the vote last September and the unprecedented landslide this May have understandably prompted the SNP to demand a lot more. It would be foolhardy for Westminster to refuse.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    edited June 2015
    Can we give the Welsh and Northern Irish FFA too please? We could save serious money out of this.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    Oh and I refuse to say "First".
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    So I guesstimate that FFA for the three other nations would save England £20-25 billion per year. That's about half the UK's defence budget.

    I'm more and more convinced that these endless sticking-plaster solutions to the problems of the Union (which was an 18th-century construct in response to a threat of a French invasion, and has clearly had its day) are inadequate. What we really need is a fully-thought through federal UK, if we are going to have any kind of Union at all.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited June 2015
    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,302
    Fishing said:

    What we really need is a fully-thought through federal UK, if we are going to have any kind of Union at all.

    I completely agree. One interesting aspect of the constitutional debate within the UK may be the the detoxification of the 'federal' word in the context of the EU.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    Fishing said:

    So I guesstimate that FFA for the three other nations would save England £20-25 billion per year. That's about half the UK's defence budget.

    I'm more and more convinced that these endless sticking-plaster solutions to the problems of the Union (which was an 18th-century construct in response to a threat of a French invasion, and has clearly had its day) are inadequate. What we really need is a fully-thought through federal UK, if we are going to have any kind of Union at all.

    AFAIR it was a response both to the logistical problems caused by joint monarchy (a tidying-up exercise) and the financial crisis in Scotland caused by the Darien expedition.
    And while it was enacted in the 18hC it was a result of activity in the 17th.

    Given the disparity in the sizes of the UK's constituent nations, I'm not sure that, at the moment, a federal system is practical.
    I know Mr Dancer, among others is viscerally opposed to the idea of an "England of the Regions" but I really don't see an alternative.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Fishing said:

    What we really need is a fully-thought through federal UK, if we are going to have any kind of Union at all.

    I completely agree. One interesting aspect of the constitutional debate within the UK may be the the detoxification of the 'federal' word in the context of the EU.
    Indeed. Federalism works well in many countries. It is the opposite of centralism
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136



    Given the disparity in the sizes of the UK's constituent nations, I'm not sure that, at the moment, a federal system is practical.
    I know Mr Dancer, among others is viscerally opposed to the idea of an "England of the Regions" but I really don't see an alternative.

    The disparity of sizes - I have always heard this argument made, but am never sure why it makes the slightest difference. As in all federations, the feds would have some powers, the nations others and there would be a court to adjudicate disputes. While it would doubtless be messy, the disparity of sizes wouldn't seem to affect that much.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    Fishing said:



    Given the disparity in the sizes of the UK's constituent nations, I'm not sure that, at the moment, a federal system is practical.
    I know Mr Dancer, among others is viscerally opposed to the idea of an "England of the Regions" but I really don't see an alternative.

    The disparity of sizes - I have always heard this argument made, but am never sure why it makes the slightest difference. As in all federations, the feds would have some powers, the nations others and there would be a court to adjudicate disputes. While it would doubtless be messy, the disparity of sizes wouldn't seem to affect that much.
    In my mind it's partly to do with the availablity and distribution of financial resources and partly to do with management of the Federation. My profession is organised on a federal basis and the human resources in, for example Wales do not compare with those in England. Having said that, N. Ireland seems to manage well, although in our terms it's completely independent.

    It's not a red line though; if there was a referendum I could quite easily be persuaded to vote for a British Federation based on the present nations.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    edited June 2015
    My idea of a constitutional setup would be:

    150-200 member unicameral UK Parliament, dealing with defence, foreign affairs and macroeconomic policy (maybe 5-10% of government spending). Explicit sovereignty vested in the UK Parliament, as now.
    3-400 member unicameral English Parliament, based in York or Manchester or somewhere and dealing with everything else
    Scottish, Welsh and NI Parliaments as now, also dealing with everything else.

    Disputes between them adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

    We'd go from being one of the most centralised democractic countries to one of the least.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Fishing said:

    What we really need is a fully-thought through federal UK, if we are going to have any kind of Union at all.

    I completely agree. One interesting aspect of the constitutional debate within the UK may be the the detoxification of the 'federal' word in the context of the EU.
    Indeed. Federalism works well in many countries. It is the opposite of centralism
    Only so long as the principle of subsidiarity is actually observed in the implementation, rather than solely in word.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    Fishing said:

    My idea of a constitutional setup would be:

    150-200 member unicameral UK Parliament, dealing with defence, foreign affairs and macroeconomic policy (maybe 5-10% of government spending). Explicit sovereignty vested in the UK Parliament, as now.
    3-400 member unicameral English Parliament, based in York or Manchester or somewhere and dealing with everything else
    Scottish, Welsh and NI Parliaments as now, also dealing with everything else.

    Disputes between them adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

    We'd go from being one of the most centralised democractic countries to one of the least.

    Hmmmm ........ the English Parliament being based away from the bases of the main newspapers and other media (although theBeeb's doing OK with it's News & Current Affairs based in Salford). I'm rather surpsed how well Germany copes with the Berlin/Frankfurt split. Or is that a source of strength: politicians and finance people aren't always running across each other?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,136
    edited June 2015

    Hmmmm ........ the English Parliament being based away from the bases of the main newspapers and other media (although theBeeb's doing OK with it's News & Current Affairs based in Salford). I'm rather surpsed how well Germany copes with the Berlin/Frankfurt split. Or is that a source of strength: politicians and finance people aren't always running across each other?

    Don't see it as an issue either way - think Ottawa vs Toronto, Canberra vs Sydney/Melborune, New York City vs Albany or Sacramento vs LA/San Francisco, or the old West Germany (Bonn vs Frankfurt/Hamburg/Munich/West Berlin). But it could be important in swinging the North behind an initiative proposed by a Tory government.

    I think a more serious objection is the shallowness of the human skills pool outside London - such specialists as economists, statisticians, and other experts tend to concentrate disproportionately in the capital. That's why departments with lots of low-grade clerical work, such as the DVLA or HMRC back office can move outside London easily while elite policy-making is much more difficult to shift. But I don't think that's insuperable in the long run, especially given massively lower house prices outside the metropolis.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited June 2015
    Morning all.

    FFA is Holyrood’s bogeyman du jour, as with the Hydra, slay it and another bogey will appear.


    Varro & Hannibal at the battle of Cannae? – You’re entering dangerous territory Mr H, there’ll be calls for a wiffle stick dual if this continues. :lol:
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Fishing said:

    My idea of a constitutional setup would be:

    150-200 member unicameral UK Parliament, dealing with defence, foreign affairs and macroeconomic policy (maybe 5-10% of government spending). Explicit sovereignty vested in the UK Parliament, as now.
    3-400 member unicameral English Parliament, based in York or Manchester or somewhere and dealing with everything else
    Scottish, Welsh and NI Parliaments as now, also dealing with everything else.

    Disputes between them adjudicated by the Supreme Court.

    We'd go from being one of the most centralised democractic countries to one of the least.

    Hmmmm ........ the English Parliament being based away from the bases of the main newspapers and other media (although theBeeb's doing OK with it's News & Current Affairs based in Salford). I'm rather surpsed how well Germany copes with the Berlin/Frankfurt split. Or is that a source of strength: politicians and finance people aren't always running across each other?
    It's a huge benefit. As the UK is structured all the weight of the decision making process promotes and strengthens London at the expense of everywhere else.

    A Federal UK with a separate Federal Territory (Berwick) would remove the repressive focus on London.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,721
    edited June 2015
    Mr Dair, Mr Fishing (perhaps large assumption; if unjustified I apologise in advance) I see what you mean. Mr F (see caveat) isn't this disparity in available skills because of the concentration of political, financial and media power in London the reason for this concentration, rather than because the skills are there in the first place?
    After all, where are the major universities at which these people are educated?

    Maybe in your scenario the Chaurdian would move back to Manchester!
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    So David Herdson believes that FFA would be very bad for Scotland (I believe it to be a much worse arrangement than independence, both politically and economically) but wishes it to be given to Scotland.

    Who knew that far to many unionists do not have what they perceive as Scotland's best interests at heart :-)
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Since making my recent post, I have read the latest article (today) from the "weegingerdug" blog. as ever he writes beautifully and indeed now writes a weekly article for "The National".

    As he puts it, and I have no trouble at all in concurring:

    " The Unionist parties have never viewed devolution for Scotland as something that’s worthwhile, as something that is a response to the desire of the electorate of Scotland. They’ve only ever seen it as a political tool for defeating the SNP. "
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ummm

    The SNP have never viewed devolution for Scotland as something that’s worthwhile, as something that is a response to the desire of the electorate of Scotland.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    Dair said:

    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.

    And don't expect your railways to be funded by England...

    https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/84027c08-cdf2-4fae-a0cb-34dc8cd66983
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Probably one of the best clickbait threads for ages.

    DH = Caesar
    TSE = Vercingetorix.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    Ummm

    The SNP have never viewed devolution for Scotland as something that’s worthwhile, as something that is a response to the desire of the electorate of Scotland.

    Just a waystop to independence.

    FFA does mean there needs to be FFA for England too. It needs to be symetrical with EVFEL or an English Parliament (simplist solution is the English MPs meeting outside Westminster for English Parliamentary business at least as an interim measure).

    The best location would be in a modest sized town midway between the dominent cities of England (like Canberra, Washington DC or Bonn) preferably with good rail links to London as MPs would need to shuttle regularly. Leicester is the obvious choice...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    Dair said:

    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.

    And don't expect your railways to be funded by England...

    https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/84027c08-cdf2-4fae-a0cb-34dc8cd66983
    Or for the Scottish regiments to continue in existance...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Beat me to it! :open_mouth:

    Morning all.

    FFA is Holyrood’s bogeyman du jour, as with the Hydra, slay it and another bogey will appear.


    Varro & Hannibal at the battle of Cannae? – You’re entering dangerous territory Mr H, there’ll be calls for a wiffle stick dual if this continues. :lol:

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Mary Creagh leadership attempt

    bit.ly/1L3wrnc
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Entertaining to watch Stewart Hosie on DP yesterday

    FFA can't be achieved in 18 months because it would have to be negotiated with HMG, but separation could because it only had to be negotiated with HMG, BoE, EU, NATO, etc., etc., etc...
  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236
    The SNP are a sleazy fringe party running high in the polls due to a misplaced sense of entitlement and the promotion of bogus historical resentments ; they are no better than Sinn Fein and the BNP

    They are using the spectre or threat of so called ''Independence '' to try and lever concessions out of Westminster ; in reality they want the taxpayer (primarily English ) to fund their socialist utopia in Scotland ;unfortunately , folks down here in England are having none of it and that's why they gave the Tories their long awaited majority !

    The electorate want the government to call their bluff , to dare them to do their worst , to stand up to them in a similar way that Thatcher stood up to the militant and undemocratic miner's union back in 1984 , and they expect the same result !

    The odious SNP are merely the cadaverous corpse of the failed 1970's Labour Party brought back to life by the lightening bolt of nationalism ; a Frankenstein -like monster representing the worst of both Left and Right ...the failed socialism of the Left and the toxic tribalism ,exclusiveness of the Right ...anyone familiar with the troubles in N Ireland or the breakup of the former Yugoslavia will instantly recognise the M O of the SNP

    It speaks volumes about the political maturity of folks in Scotland that so many political munchkins could be seduced by the siren song of these obvious chancers and opportunists !

    ''Springtime for Scotland '' or is it ''Follow the yellow brick road '' ?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    tlg86 said:

    Dair said:

    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.

    And don't expect your railways to be funded by England...

    https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/84027c08-cdf2-4fae-a0cb-34dc8cd66983
    Or for the Scottish regiments to continue in existance...
    The Scottish regiments are dying anyway. The pool of young men who meet the physical requirements for military service is so small that 10% of the ranks are made up of non Scottish men.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/recruitment-crisis-means-one-in-10-1096793

  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited June 2015
    With regard to Scottish regiments, they are more likely to be junkies, also.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/royal-regiment-scotland-top-military-1897465
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Cromwell:

    "anyone familiar with the troubles in N Ireland or the breakup of the former Yugoslavia will instantly recognise the M O of the SNP"

    Perhaps you haven't noticed that no-one, whether in favour or against Scottish independence has been killed in the whole of the 20th Century and the 21st Century to date.

    Still, I see you aren't closely aligned with reality :-)
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Scott_P

    "The SNP have never viewed devolution for Scotland as something that’s worthwhile, as something that is a response to the desire of the electorate of Scotland."

    As evidenced by, well, absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Cromwell said:

    The SNP are a sleazy fringe party running high in the polls due to a misplaced sense of entitlement and the promotion of bogus historical resentments ; they are no better than Sinn Fein and the BNP

    They are using the spectre or threat of so called ''Independence '' to try and lever concessions out of Westminster ; in reality they want the taxpayer (primarily English ) to fund their socialist utopia in Scotland ;unfortunately , folks down here in England are having none of it and that's why they gave the Tories their long awaited majority !

    The electorate want the government to call their bluff , to dare them to do their worst , to stand up to them in a similar way that Thatcher stood up to the militant and undemocratic miner's union back in 1984 , and they expect the same result !

    The odious SNP are merely the cadaverous corpse of the failed 1970's Labour Party brought back to life by the lightening bolt of nationalism ; a Frankenstein -like monster representing the worst of both Left and Right ...the failed socialism of the Left and the toxic tribalism ,exclusiveness of the Right ...anyone familiar with the troubles in N Ireland or the breakup of the former Yugoslavia will instantly recognise the M O of the SNP

    It speaks volumes about the political maturity of folks in Scotland that so many political munchkins could be seduced by the siren song of these obvious chancers and opportunists !

    ''Springtime for Scotland '' or is it ''Follow the yellow brick road '' ?

    Socialism could be compared to heroin and Nationalism to cocaine. A mixture of heroin and cocaine is called a speedball. It's an addictive and ruinous combination.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited June 2015
    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    O/T there's a good article by Mark Glendenning on Con Home about Tony Blair's plans for Tolerance through Censorship.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JPJ2 said:

    Scott_P

    "The SNP have never viewed devolution for Scotland as something that’s worthwhile, as something that is a response to the desire of the electorate of Scotland."

    As evidenced by, well, absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

    Their single and stated goal is the abolition of the current devolution settlement.

    Are you really claiming the SNP don't want separation?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Good morning, everyone.

    Excellent reference to Hannibal.

    I broadly agree, except I think English devolution ought to occur at the same time as further Scottish devolution to avoid any further imbalance.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Jonathan, shade unfair after Labour lit a powder keg with their idiotically lopsided and ill-conceived devolution.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mr. Jonathan, shade unfair after Labour lit a powder keg with their idiotically lopsided and ill-conceived devolution.

    You keep pandering that nonsense.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,546
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    It would be helpful if he were to acknowledge that this was the entirely predictable outcome of his government's devolution settlement, combined with the failings of the Scottish Labour Party.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Mr. Jonathan, shade unfair after Labour lit a powder keg with their idiotically lopsided and ill-conceived devolution.

    Quite so, a fact McDoom conveniently forgets. The man is a meddling fool. His time has past. He was no use to Britain whilst he was an MP and of even less relevance( if that is possible) after he gave up his seat to the SNP.. And of course its the Labour Party in Scotland that must beat the brunt of criticism for where Scotland stands now.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    So new Knights include

    Simon Burns MP
    Simon Hughes
    Paul Kenny of GMB
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    e
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    ........or even caused the problem in the first place with their devolution to sort out Nationalism.

    It's again the classic approach of Labour to anything so they take the route of....

    1) we are blamed for something we were actually responsible for
    2) we cannot defend said accusation
    3) move argument sideways by saying they blamed us for something we were not responsible for
    4) defend this position stating other side is unreasonable

    Rinse and repeat.

    They have done this throughout the banking collapse by moving the argument onto "we caused the collapse of the banking system worldwide" (defendable) from " we blew all the money and left the country up the Swanee when the inevitable crisis hit despite all the warnings we had" ( not defendable)

    The electorate saw through it in May 2015 and the rest is history
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Scott_P

    "Are you really claiming the SNP don't want separation? "

    Of course I am claiming they don't want "separation", just as the USA don't celebrate "Separation Day" on 4th July.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Jonathan, ahem, I keep expressing a view you don't hold.

    Lopsided = Scotland got a Parliament. Wales got an Assembly. England got nothing.

    Ill-conceived = Labour said it would kill nationalism stone dead. Less than two decades later, the SNP have an outright majority in Holyrood and 56/59 MPs.

    Mr. Divvie, you, at least partially, misremember. Some of us, before the vote was had, were pissed off at Brown's stupid Vow bullshit and with the three party leaders in Westminster being nodding dogs to it.

    It's true some (including in the media/political class) were gushing at how super Brown was. I wasn't, and others here were also unimpressed.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


    Maybe right.

    I have no appetite to vote Labour again.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Moses_ said:

    It's again the classic approach of Labour to anything so they take the route of....

    1) we are blamed for something we were actually responsible for
    2) we cannot defend said accusation
    3) move argument sideways by saying they blamed us for something we were not responsible for
    4) defend this position stating other side is unreasonable

    Rinse and repeat.

    The Nats are no better. See the response from JPJ2

    Unable to defend the position that the SNP want to abolish the existing devolution settlement (that's irrefutable) he whines about terminology
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


    Maybe right.

    I have no appetite to vote Labour again.
    How about a competition for predicted vote share in a year's time?
    It will be very difficult to predict and I think that the figures from posters would vary wildly.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


    Maybe right.

    I have no appetite to vote Labour again.
    Why?
    That's a genuine question.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Jonathan, ahem, I keep expressing a view you don't hold.

    Lopsided = Scotland got a Parliament. Wales got an Assembly. England got nothing.

    Ill-conceived = Labour said it would kill nationalism stone dead. Less than two decades later, the SNP have an outright majority in Holyrood and 56/59 MPs.

    .

    Your view is wrong. The energy that drives the SNP and independence does not originate from Labour. No one wants to get out of the union because of Labour, North or South of the border.

    The labour party just got its head blown clean off in the cross fire.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


    That would be extremely bad if that were to happen. Any Govt needs a strong opposition to keep it honest..
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    There's a great piece in the Times from Mr Parris about the Flat Earther mentality of Marxism and how it's never worked. And some still want to test it to further destruction even in the face of decades of failure... and have polluted the waters with *profit* being a dirty word and bizarrely immoral.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4468935.ece
    Scott_P said:

    Moses_ said:

    It's again the classic approach of Labour to anything so they take the route of....

    1) we are blamed for something we were actually responsible for
    2) we cannot defend said accusation
    3) move argument sideways by saying they blamed us for something we were not responsible for
    4) defend this position stating other side is unreasonable

    Rinse and repeat.

    The Nats are no better. See the response from JPJ2

    Unable to defend the position that the SNP want to abolish the existing devolution settlement (that's irrefutable) he whines about terminology
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.


    Indeed and the only anti-austerity leadership candidate gets 17 MPs supporting him.

    Whatever happened to the Labour Party
    It's finished. I predict it will lose another 50 MPs next time and fall behind UKIP in vote share in England.


    Maybe right.

    I have no appetite to vote Labour again.
    If it moves to the centre, as the Staggers and others are urging, it can write off the "hold your nose" vote - we may be only 3% or so of the electorate, but Labour still needs us - and the Greens are ready and waiting!

  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Jonathan, you failed to consider the lopsided point entirely.

    Leaving that aside, can you really see no link between the Yes campaign, the massive rise post-referendum of SNP membership and then tremendous SNP success in the General Election?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    There's a great piece in the Times from Mr Parris about the Flat Earther mentality of Marxism and how it's never worked. And some still want to test it to further destruction even in the face of decades of failure... and have polluted the waters with *profit* being a dirty word and bizarrely immoral.

    There is also an article in the Times about how the SNP's brand of "civic Nationalism" is driving people out of Scotland

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4469079.ece
  • JPJ2JPJ2 Posts: 380
    Scott_P

    "Unable to defend the position that the SNP want to abolish the existing devolution settlement (that's irrefutable) he whines about terminology "

    Mine was merely a light hearted response, a resistance to your pejorative language.

    I regard independence as the transfer of all powers to Scotland. I view it as the logical finale to the current transfer of some powers to Scotland.

    So I don't regard independence as abolishing devolution, but rather its ultimate fulfilment at the endpoint of a continuum.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JPJ2 said:

    I don't regard independence as abolishing devolution

    Ah right...

    We want FFA, as long as we can keep Barnett

    We want separation, as long as devolution stays

    SNP logic is a wonder to behold
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mr. Jonathan, you failed to consider the lopsided point entirely.

    Leaving that aside, can you really see no link between the Yes campaign, the massive rise post-referendum of SNP membership and then tremendous SNP success in the General Election?

    The lopsided point is debatable and entirely tertiary to the main points which is why Scots hate the Tories so much nearly half want to leave the UK and why the Tories only response is to pour fuel on that fire.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167


    Mr. Divvie, you, at least partially, misremember. Some of us, before the vote was had, were pissed off at Brown's stupid Vow bullshit and with the three party leaders in Westminster being nodding dogs to it.

    It's true some (including in the media/political class) were gushing at how super Brown was. I wasn't, and others here were also unimpressed.

    I'm not sure Cameron, Miliband or Clegg can pin the blame for the Vow on to Brown; it's their faces & signatures on it. Of course failure is always an orphan..
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:

    The lopsided point is debatable and entirely tertiary to the main points which is why Scots hate the Tories so much nearly half want to leave the UK

    You have to remember Tory is SNP code for English when making that assertion
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    THE SNP has been challenged by Labour to back a Tory amendment to the Scotland Bill, which has "called their bluff" as it would fast-track full fiscal autonomy(FFA) for Holyrood.

    The amendment by veteran Conservative backbencher Sir Edward Leigh would seek quickly to hand over all powers to the Scottish Parliament on, among other things, finance, home affairs, trade and industry, energy, transport and social security; leaving matters like defence, foreign affairs and the constitution reserved to Westminster.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/snp-challenged-by-labour-to-back-tory-bid-to-fast-track-full-fiscal-auton.128871343
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Morning all.

    FFA is Holyrood’s bogeyman du jour, as with the Hydra, slay it and another bogey will appear.

    Quite. In any case, 45% of Scots want(ed) independence right now, and while some of them might have believed there would be no negative economic consequences, others would not care. That's not even a position I would criticise, people wanting not to be 'ruled' by someone else, as they see it, even if it meant taking an economic hit. As such, the 'less of a leap in the dark to independence' factor with FFA, would seem to me to be more likely to be in the ascendancy should FFA have negative consequences rather than 'Oh no, we made a terrible mistake'.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167
    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    How marvellous it must be to speak collectively for a whole group of people.

    No wonder the 'H' word gets bandied about.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    I'm not intrinsically opposed to some form of asymmetrical devolution, I can in theory see where it might be best or at least necessary, but it would be nice to have a simple, balanced settlement. Labour's constitutional convention idea was not really a bad idea I guess, even though since they had already proposed a HoL solution in their manifesto I was a bit confused about what would be discussed in terms of ideas at it, given they had already made up their minds what they wanted to do in one area at least (a Senate of the People and the Regions).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Divvie, I did blame all four of them, both at the time and in my post on this thread.

    Mr. Jonathan, the lopsided point is not debatable. Three parts of the UK: one has a full Parliament, one has an Assembly, one has nothing. That's the definition of a lopsided arrangement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    There was some grudging respect for one or two speeches in some quarters, I don't recall all that much approbation though.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    How marvellous it must be to speak collectively for a whole group of people.

    Everyone does it, why single one person/group out for seemingly speaking for a whole group?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Being on PB prior to GE2010 was a hotbed of Gordon dislike. And it'd been going on for years before then. It seemed to eclipse what Tony endured despite Iraq.
    kle4 said:

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    There was some grudging respect for one or two speeches in some quarters, I don't recall all that much approbation though.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mr. Divvie, I did blame all four of them, both at the time and in my post on this thread.

    Mr. Jonathan, the lopsided point is not debatable. Three parts of the UK: one has a full Parliament, one has an Assembly, one has nothing. That's the definition of a lopsided arrangement.

    There are more than three parts to the UK. At least four, arguably many more. London alone bigger than three of the four nations has very successful devolution. This will be extended by this govt to Manchester.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2015
    London isn't devolved - it has a Mayor with no tax adjusting capabilities. Really, you're stretching the definition waaay beyond credibility.
    Jonathan said:

    Mr. Divvie, I did blame all four of them, both at the time and in my post on this thread.

    Mr. Jonathan, the lopsided point is not debatable. Three parts of the UK: one has a full Parliament, one has an Assembly, one has nothing. That's the definition of a lopsided arrangement.

    There are more than three parts to the UK. At least four, arguably many more. London alone bigger than three of the four nations has very successful devolution. This will be extended by this govt to Manchester.
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    edited June 2015
    Plato said:

    Being on PB prior to GE2010 was a hotbed of Gordon dislike. And it'd been going on for years before then. It seemed to eclipse what Tony endured despite Iraq.

    kle4 said:

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    There was some grudging respect for one or two speeches in some quarters, I don't recall all that much approbation though.
    Are you feeling all right? You've written a post that doesn't puff one of Murdoch's organs, after all, so you can't be surprised if you get asked :)

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Jonathan, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure that Scotland is always considered a single entity but some want to carve England into foolish fiefdoms, entrenching and deepening resentment by institutionalising political division via an idiotic form of devolution.

    Just one more reason we need an English Parliament.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Moses_ said:

    e

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:
    Why is it a good article?
    Brown's analysis is broadly correct. The Tories are playing with fire. They are as bad as the SNP.

    Sadly he doesn't get the full extent to which Labour are currently irrelevant if not anachronistic.



    They have done this throughout the banking collapse by moving the argument onto "we caused the collapse of the banking system worldwide" (defendable) from " we blew all the money and left the country up the Swanee when the inevitable crisis hit despite all the warnings we had" ( not defendable)

    The electorate saw through it in May 2015 and the rest is history
    Labour are still sticking to that one, as far as I recall, I presume as Tory attacks over the last Labour government will have less impact in 2020, so they feel it's an area they don't have to concede ground, as too much concession all at once and they look weak.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Plato said:

    Being on PB prior to GE2010 was a hotbed of Gordon dislike. And it'd been going on for years before then. It seemed to eclipse what Tony endured despite Iraq.

    kle4 said:

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    There was some grudging respect for one or two speeches in some quarters, I don't recall all that much approbation though.
    Fortunately I had stopped thinking about the menace that was Gordon Brown, I absolutely loathe the man, from what he did to the manner he did it. How the Labour party allowed him anywhere near the levers of power is beyond comprehension.

    Every time Brown opens his gob, it all comes flooding back... and I am sure I am not alone. The best thing Brown can do is keep schtum.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Exactly. Scotland and Wales gets to become a *country* - the English get to be carved up into pieces so it isn't a country at all.

    It's just such a weak argument that I can't believe it's even being made.

    Mr. Jonathan, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure that Scotland is always considered a single entity but some want to carve England into foolish fiefdoms, entrenching and deepening resentment by institutionalising political division via an idiotic form of devolution.

    Just one more reason we need an English Parliament.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,167

    Mr. Divvie, I did blame all four of them, both at the time and in my post on this thread.

    Mr. Jonathan, the lopsided point is not debatable. Three parts of the UK: one has a full Parliament, one has an Assembly, one has nothing. That's the definition of a lopsided arrangement.

    I know you want an English parliament but has there been any polling as to whether it's popular with the English electorate? If it isn't a big issue with voters and none of the bigger parties are pushing it how do you expect it to come to pass?
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    edited June 2015
    ''A great deal of the history of Scottish nationalism is built on resentment ''
    'Bogus resentment'
    As is this supposed hatred of all things tory. The SNP has become a sink for loony rabid lefties.
    The SNP have hold of a tiger by the tail.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2015

    Mr. Jonathan, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure that Scotland is always considered a single entity but some want to carve England into foolish fiefdoms, entrenching and deepening resentment by institutionalising political division via an idiotic form of devolution.

    Hear Hear. It's just so piecemeal and inconsistent. I know the UK is good at fudging things and kicking the can down the road, but with all this localised devolution stuff on top of the national settlements, it kind of feels like we've taken fudges as far as we can and we need a proper sit down to agree a comprehensive picture of what we want the whole country to look like already.

    Sadly, I think we've left it a bit too late, given Scotland's already on the way out unless the SNP go all PQ on us, which I should imagine they are aware of the danger of and being careful about.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The relief I felt that Gordon was gone in 2010 didn't really hit me, until he popped up on TV a while later - I felt my whole skin bristle with dislike at the economic ruin, hubris and hypocrisy of the man.

    Moral compass, my arse.

    Plato said:

    Being on PB prior to GE2010 was a hotbed of Gordon dislike. And it'd been going on for years before then. It seemed to eclipse what Tony endured despite Iraq.

    kle4 said:

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    There was some grudging respect for one or two speeches in some quarters, I don't recall all that much approbation though.
    Fortunately I had stopped thinking about the menace that was Gordon Brown, I absolutely loathe the man, from what he did to the manner he did it. How the Labour party allowed him anywhere near the levers of power is beyond comprehension.

    Every time Brown opens his gob, it all comes flooding back... and I am sure I am not alone. The best thing Brown can do is keep schtum.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2015
    I never really had a problem with Brown. I disliked Blair a lot more, and at least Brown was not so oily and smarmy. I know Blair had a lot of fans across the political spectrum, but I never saw what people liked about him so much, presentation wise I mean.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    tlg86 said:

    Dair said:

    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.

    And don't expect your railways to be funded by England...

    https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/84027c08-cdf2-4fae-a0cb-34dc8cd66983
    This is already paid by the Scottish Government from the Scottish Budget.

    BTW you might want to check how much England and Wales are now consuming in rail subsidies. It is eye watering.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. kle4, PQ?

    Mr. Divvie, the last polling I saw had a majority in England seeing it as the preferred form of devolution (unsure if there was the option for no devolution included [or none of the above] in that poll, though).

    The BBC and political class don't seem to want to even mention it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm allergic to false piety - something Gordon paraded daily.
    kle4 said:

    I never really had a problem with Brown. I disliked Blair a lot more, and at least Brown was not so oily and smarmy. I know Blair had a lot of fans across the political spectrum, but I never saw what people liked about him so much, presentation wise I mean.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mr. Jonathan, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure that Scotland is always considered a single entity but some want to carve England into foolish fiefdoms, entrenching and deepening resentment by institutionalising political division via an idiotic form of devolution.

    Just one more reason we need an English Parliament.

    No one is dividing England, just looking at how it can be governed effectively. London shows that there is a real place for that tier of govt.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591

    Mr. kle4, PQ?

    Parti Québécois. Came so close to their dream quite some time ago now, but (and I do not know how or why) do not seem anywhere close to it anymore.
  • frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    Leicester is like a coiled spring, ready to burst forth to lead a resurgent, slimmed down Britain. I wouldn't be surprised if they found King Arthur buried beneath a council car park there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. kle4, ah, cheers.

    Mr. Jonathan, hmph. We need an English Parliament. Until and unless we get it, the Conservatives seem content to ignore the need and there's the risk Labour et al. will try and slice England up into petty fiefdoms.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Cromwell said:

    The SNP are a sleazy fringe party running high in the polls due to a misplaced sense of entitlement and the promotion of bogus historical resentments ; they are no better than Sinn Fein and the BNP

    They are using the spectre or threat of so called ''Independence '' to try and lever concessions out of Westminster ; in reality they want the taxpayer (primarily English ) to fund their socialist utopia in Scotland ;unfortunately , folks down here in England are having none of it and that's why they gave the Tories their long awaited majority !

    ...irrational rant snipped....

    Sin Fein have twice proved utterly victorious over the United Kingdom government, firstly in 1922 when they divided the UK into two parts and again in 1997 when they succeeded with hte Good Friday Agreement of guaranteeing Sinn Fein control over Northern Ireland in perpetuity. Not a good example for your rant.

    As for "threat", Independence is the goal and the only goal. Nothing short of that will ever be good enough for Scotland. Your comical view on Scotland is just the opportunity Independence has to thrive and win. You make it easy for Scotland to be free.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Dair said:

    The faster FFA comes the better and I urge every person in England to write to their MP and DEMAND that FFA is imposed on Scotland by the current Tory government. The sooner the better. Don't just sit back, get active and demand it, it is what you want after all.

    Just don't expect the £3bn per annum paid by Scotland towards the National Infrastructure Plan which should really be renamed the English Infrastructure Plan given where the vast bulk of the spending occurs. Oh and expect a drastic revision of the £3.5bn per annum currently paid by Scotland towards Westminster's Debt Interest Repayment.

    And if you really think Scotland will continue to pay £3.5bn per annum towards a Power Projection military budget (comparisons Denmark £2.4bn, Ireland £1.5bn, Iceland £0bn) then you need to consider what happens the first time a party stands for election to Holyrood on a platform of cutting contributions to UK Defense - hint, the Greens may soon be close to the official opposition and/or likely coalition partners for the SNP in the foreseeable future.

    The UK built up the debt and all of the UK needs to continue to service it in fair proportion (just as an independent Scotland would have had to take its fair share had the vote gone for Yes last year). Considering that it was a Scottish chancellor that set the country on the course that has resulted in most of the debt, and that Scotland has, over the same period, voted for parties that have wanted to continue to add to the debt (i.e. abandon the 'austerity' programme), there's a good case for Scotland paying a good deal more than its pro rata share.

    As for the military budget, it's a UK-wide responsibility and needs to be funded as such. Any alternative means independence.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited June 2015

    saddened said:

    I note that Gordon McDoom has entered the debate.
    f
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/ben-riley-smith/11669994/Gordon-Brown-The-United-Kingdom-is-on-life-support.html


    Brown is an old man who no one wants to listen to... people have had enough of the old loon whilst he was Prime Minister.

    I seem to remember that nine short months ago Unionists were sticky with pleasure at the performance of the man that saved the UK. How soon we forget.
    You remember incorrectly, he was and always will be regarded as an abject failure.
    How marvellous it must be to speak collectively for a whole group of people.

    No wonder the 'H' word gets bandied about.

    Plato said:

    Exactly. Scotland and Wales gets to become a *country* - the English get to be carved up into pieces so it isn't a country at all.

    It's just such a weak argument that I can't believe it's even being made.

    Mr. Jonathan, it amuses and irritates me in equal measure that Scotland is always considered a single entity but some want to carve England into foolish fiefdoms, entrenching and deepening resentment by institutionalising political division via an idiotic form of devolution.

    Just one more reason we need an English Parliament.

    "The English are a race not worth saving"
    Jack Straw
    The Labour Party


    .
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706

    Mr. kle4, ah, cheers.

    Mr. Jonathan, hmph. We need an English Parliament. Until and unless we get it, the Conservatives seem content to ignore the need and there's the risk Labour et al. will try and slice England up into petty fiefdoms.

    Twaddle.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Jonathan, perhaps. But devolution will only become a bigger issue, and I do not think such an approach towards the matter will necessarily endear Labour to England.
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