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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why Labour needs to be as ruthless with failing leaders as

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  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    If Labour want to remove a leader surely all they need to do is ask Gordon and his "forces of hell", as mentioned in the Badger's autobiography.
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    Mr. Mark, Brown.

    Brown culled a slew of leadership candidates, and Labour didn't help themselves when Bananaman bottled it and failed to follow James Purnell [perhaps on the advice of his dastardly brother].

    Whom did Brown cull ?
    John Reid for one. The fact that no one could face Brown when Blair resigned was an utter disaster for the labour party looking back.
    Reid effectively retired and declined Brown's offer of a Cabinet position.

    Maybe you're right and Brown did cull opponents but off the top of my head I can only think of Robin Cook and Mo Mowlam who were both axed by Tony Blair.
    Reid knew from way back that Brown was a bonkers bully and he refused to work with him.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dair said:

    OchEye said:

    I must admit that I have found a some what black humour in reading the CK eulogies in the press and remembering some of the criticsms that were made of him by the same journals in the past.

    I believe that the Sun even produced a picture of him to be pinned to dartboards.

    The difference between the papers and the CyberNATs is that you can make a choice to buy or not a paper, which even print contact details so that you can challenge them - the CyberNATs attack is to destroy with what ever is to hand and to hide in the shadows.

    What makes it so insidious, is that they could be a workmate, a neighbour, a friend, a relative or a spouse writing these things and you would never know.
    ...snip...

    But please, feel free to continue with the Faux Outrage. The only people it embarrasses as yourselves.
    And, evidently, the SNP.....otherwise why would they say:

    Mr Smith was spoken to and accepts that his comments during the campaign were entirely inappropriate - as a result, he has resigned as convener of the Skye and Lochalsh branch.

    – SNP SPOKESMAN"
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    There really isn't anything they can do. They are as powerless, pitiful and panicked as the PB Tories on here with their desperate attempts to try to get anything to stick on the SNP.
    .
    I agree with Dair here - at the moment nothing will stick to the SNP.

    But sooner or later the voters of Northern Britain will notice that their economy and unemployment figures are heading in the wrong direction entirely due to the anti-business agenda of the SNP. Might be sooner or later - putting up income tax will bring it forward IMHO.

    But could be 2020 something...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    The invented Scottish Deficit is just the best example.
    If its 'invented' why does Sturgeon not want FFA now?

    Come on, independence with a new currency would only take 18 months - what can be so hard about FFA?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Miss Jones, hmm.

    Quite a lot of that does sound just like wishing one were taller, more muscular and more intelligent.

    Also, several of those are things people can affect. I only learnt (much) about classical history after leaving school. Weight is, obviously, affected by personal habits.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    OchEye said:

    I must admit that I have found a some what black humour in reading the CK eulogies in the press and remembering some of the criticsms that were made of him by the same journals in the past.

    I believe that the Sun even produced a picture of him to be pinned to dartboards.

    The difference between the papers and the CyberNATs is that you can make a choice to buy or not a paper, which even print contact details so that you can challenge them - the CyberNATs attack is to destroy with what ever is to hand and to hide in the shadows.

    What makes it so insidious, is that they could be a workmate, a neighbour, a friend, a relative or a spouse writing these things and you would never know.
    ...snip...

    But please, feel free to continue with the Faux Outrage. The only people it embarrasses as yourselves.
    And, evidently, the SNP.....otherwise why would they say:

    Mr Smith was spoken to and accepts that his comments during the campaign were entirely inappropriate - as a result, he has resigned as convener of the Skye and Lochalsh branch.

    – SNP SPOKESMAN"
    It's called "politics" Carlotta, try to keep up.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    The invented Scottish Deficit is just the best example.
    If its 'invented' why does Sturgeon not want FFA now?

    Come on, independence with a new currency would only take 18 months - what can be so hard about FFA?

    Sturgeon wants FFA now. She's smart enough to know the most beneficial Fiscal Framework will come when FFA is imposed by the Tories instead of being demanded by the SNP. That old "politics" thing really does seem beyond you.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    The invented Scottish Deficit is just the best example.
    If its 'invented' why does Sturgeon not want FFA now?

    Come on, independence with a new currency would only take 18 months - what can be so hard about FFA?

    Sturgeon wants FFA now.
    Then why doesn't the SNP amendment to the Scotland bill say that?

    To borrow a phrase, Do keep up!
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    The invented Scottish Deficit is just the best example.
    If its 'invented' why does Sturgeon not want FFA now?

    Come on, independence with a new currency would only take 18 months - what can be so hard about FFA?

    Sturgeon wants FFA now.
    Then why doesn't the SNP amendment to the Scotland bill say that?

    To borrow a phrase, Do keep up!
    I guess you need things repeated often before they sink in.

    It's called politics.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2015
    Dawn Primarolo's account of a drunken Reid making sexual advances to her was leaked at the right time (2007)?
    TGOHF said:

    Mr. Mark, Brown.

    Brown culled a slew of leadership candidates, and Labour didn't help themselves when Bananaman bottled it and failed to follow James Purnell [perhaps on the advice of his dastardly brother].

    Whom did Brown cull ?
    John Reid for one. The fact that no one could face Brown when bBair resigned was an utter disaster for the labour party looking back.
    I think Dr Reid provided the (g)rope to hang himself.
  • stuartastuarta Posts: 1
    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    We've had years of negative stories about the NHS in Scotland under the SNP government: waiting lists, poor care, delays, low spending, dubious decisions over hospital closures. And yet the SNP are still seen as the saviour of the NHS in Scotland. Similarly, with education where the system isn't exactly going from strength to strength. Simply attacking the SNP over these things isn't the answer: Labour needs something inspiring. If Labour aren't able to convince people that they're the best party to look after the NHS and other public services, then what is the point of the Labour party?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Welcome Mr Stuarta and well said. It can't be ignored or wished away.
    stuarta said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    We've had years of negative stories about the NHS in Scotland under the SNP government: waiting lists, poor care, delays, low spending, dubious decisions over hospital closures. And yet the SNP are still seen as the saviour of the NHS in Scotland. Similarly, with education where the system isn't exactly going from strength to strength. Simply attacking the SNP over these things isn't the answer: Labour needs something inspiring. If Labour aren't able to convince people that they're the best party to look after the NHS and other public services, then what is the point of the Labour party?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited June 2015
    stuarta said:

    We've had years of negative stories about the NHS in Scotland under the SNP government: waiting lists, poor care, delays, low spending, dubious decisions over hospital closures. And yet the SNP are still seen as the saviour of the NHS in Scotland. Similarly, with education where the system isn't exactly going from strength to strength. Simply attacking the SNP over these things isn't the answer: Labour needs something inspiring. If Labour aren't able to convince people that they're the best party to look after the NHS and other public services, then what is the point of the Labour party?

    The core problem is that their claims that the NHS and Education system are "disasters" just don't tally with what people see. There really aren't problems with NHS Scotland or the Education system. In most ways they are both doing well and certainly for NHS Scotland the public approval ratings are sky high. There are some genuine criticisms but the language that Labour insist on couching their complaints in completely undermines their argument.

    It is a problem of their own making. When they were in government they got things off to a terrible start with their Parliament fiasco and generally never found favour as being a reliable and competent government. Their lack of talent and lack of any ambition for Scotland was visible at every turn.

    Since they lost office Labour can't take credit for anything because under the Bain Principle they have generally voted against anything that the SNP has done. Almost the only vote they managed to win since 2007 was to keep ploughing public money into Labour's disastrous Edinburgh Trams project. So they try to take minor criticism and inflate it with ever more hyperbolic language in an escalating cycle.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    The invented Scottish Deficit is just the best example.
    If its 'invented' why does Sturgeon not want FFA now?

    Come on, independence with a new currency would only take 18 months - what can be so hard about FFA?

    Sturgeon wants FFA now.
    Then why doesn't the SNP amendment to the Scotland bill say that?

    To borrow a phrase, Do keep up!
    I guess you need things repeated often before they sink in.

    It's called politics.
    Its called 'liar, liar, pants on fire!'

    Either that or 'Big Jessie'!

    Take your pick.

    Now for something more challenging, shooting fish in a barrel......
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,968
    Mr. Freggles, hey, he's invincible. Except for his one weakness: confettiite.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited June 2015
    Fun cartoon in the Herald:

    twitter.com/Herald_Editor/status/609237781223731201/photo/1

    Tho I think they are being rather unflattering to Mr Swinney's lean figure.....
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    77 mps yet to endorse a deputy leadership candidate - Healey's withdrawal has added to the possibility of a five-member ballot, but it still seems unlikely.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    For a Labour leader to reverse them out of their present terminal decline they need a new clause 4 moment that sends a clear message to the punters that they've changed.

    My suggestion for such a moment would be "We admit we have lied for 70 years in saying the Tories want to destroy / privatise / underfund the NHS. They have no such plans, they are doing a pretty good job and we won't lie about this futher."

    That would send the required signal, but the trouble is, Labour in the round won't like it. If you look at the Progress website there are Labourrhoids there wondering in pretty much as many words what the point of being in power is if you have to act responsibly; if it can't crash the economy and create total mayhem what is a Labour government for, exactly?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    if it can't crash the economy and create total mayhem what is a Labour government for, exactly?

    And if that's all you want to do, you can vote SNP
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited June 2015

    What Labour really needs to do is get its civil war out of the way first, and then try to find a leader with a bit more heft, gravitas and leadership talent than the candidates on offer. But that is not going to happen.

    Quite, Richard. Right away, the big problem they face is that there is nobody "with a bit more heft, gravitas and leadership talent" currently in the PLP.

    The next election will be like a battle of Waterloo where the Duke of Wellington is unavailable to command the Anglo-allied army, and consequently one of the divisional commanders has to be chosen instead. None of them has commanded an army before, several hadn't even previously commanded a division and unfortunately the opposition today is the Emperor David and Marshal Osborne.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Fun watching SNP MEP on DP

    "I was well disposed towards Syriza, but they now have a credibility problem"

    Ask not for whom the bell tolls...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plato said:

    It's beyond weird. How can you possibly claim to be born the wrong race? I wanted to be a dolphin when I grew up. I'm oppressed.

    EDIT I understand she got a minority scholarship to attend university - very naughty.

    Miss Plato, reminds me of a WrongSkin thing I heard about the other day. White guy, white parents, but he identifies as black.

    I heard from someone who worked in a school (over a decade ago, now) that you can pick whatever ethnicity you like on the official forms. So, if you want to be black, you can be. I'm uncertain whether inventing new ethnicities (purple, or spotty, or norkleporgish) is acceptable.

    I think there is a whole lot more going on if you read between the lines.

    She is clearly completely estranged from her parents - and her adopted brother, who has lived with her since aged 16 has also "lost contact" with her parents.

    The implication is also that she posted herself race hate material (presumably to build credibility with those who subscribe to the victim mentality).

    Additionally she has accused - in an interview, but not to the police - her parents of abusing her siblings.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    john_zims said:

    @DecrepitJohnL

    'If the Conservatives are so ruthless, btw, why was Mrs Thatcher not replaced before the Falklands War? Labour had double-figure leads in 1980 iirc'

    Assuming that's a serious point,Thatcher had just won an election the year before.

    Plus the plotters were of jellyfish-like steeliness. Anyone remember Francis Pym's "Centre Forward"? Between the absence of a plausible alternative (TINA) and the fact that Foot was obviously going to get completely diced by any Tory leader, there was never really the need or the momentum.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Charles said:

    Plato said:

    It's beyond weird. How can you possibly claim to be born the wrong race? I wanted to be a dolphin when I grew up. I'm oppressed.

    EDIT I understand she got a minority scholarship to attend university - very naughty.

    Miss Plato, reminds me of a WrongSkin thing I heard about the other day. White guy, white parents, but he identifies as black.

    I heard from someone who worked in a school (over a decade ago, now) that you can pick whatever ethnicity you like on the official forms. So, if you want to be black, you can be. I'm uncertain whether inventing new ethnicities (purple, or spotty, or norkleporgish) is acceptable.

    I think there is a whole lot more going on if you read between the lines.

    She is clearly completely estranged from her parents - and her adopted brother, who has lived with her since aged 16 has also "lost contact" with her parents.

    The implication is also that she posted herself race hate material (presumably to build credibility with those who subscribe to the victim mentality).

    Additionally she has accused - in an interview, but not to the police - her parents of abusing her siblings.
    She has struck a useful blow against the grievance industry by getting a racist scholarship awarded to herself by impersonating another race, though, so we should applaud that.

    I often wonder where this nonsense on stilts leads. I am a man but if I identify as a woman can I have ungloved sex with women without risk of pregnancy?

    Was it Orwell or someone else who said that you can kid yourself or vote for the idea that 2 + 2 = 5 but when you use that assumption in aircraft design you will eventually have to confront reality.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants). But I'm thinking of giving him my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    A quote in the comments section of that article must be music to the ears of committed Tories.

    "I'd sooner spend my entire life in opposition with integrity than five minutes in power with Kendall's principles."

    With "friends" like that, Labour doesn't need enemies.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Disraeli said:

    "I'd sooner spend my entire life in opposition with integrity than five minutes in power with Kendall's principles."

    Your wish may be granted...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited June 2015
    Gulp at Jeremy Corbyn being the landslide winner.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Scott_P said:

    Disraeli said:

    "I'd sooner spend my entire life in opposition with integrity than five minutes in power with Kendall's principles."

    Your wish may be granted...
    err... I'm a Kendall fan!
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Mary Creagh beaten by both DK and NOTA

    ouchy
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Jeremy Corbyn gets to 17 nominations for Labour leader but says “I don't want charity” in response to Andy Burnham offer of a helping hand to rivals without enough nominations to stand in the contest.

    Well-meaning sentiment - but could be cutting off his nose to spite his face.

    http://www.totalpolitics.com/blog/449916/jeremy-corbyn-gets-to-17-nominations-for-labour-leader-and-tells-tp-i-donand39t-want-charity.thtml
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Disraeli said:

    err... I'm a Kendall fan!

    Yeah, I meant 'you', writer of the quote, not 'you' quoter of the piece
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    What worries me most about the LL poll is the tiny gap between Kendall and Burnham. Where is she getting these supporters from?!?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569
    Dair said:

    OchEye said:

    I must admit that I have found a some what black humour in reading the CK eulogies in the press and remembering some of the criticsms that were made of him by the same journals in the past.

    I believe that the Sun even produced a picture of him to be pinned to dartboards.

    The difference between the papers and the CyberNATs is that you can make a choice to buy or not a paper, which even print contact details so that you can challenge them - the CyberNATs attack is to destroy with what ever is to hand and to hide in the shadows.

    What makes it so insidious, is that they could be a workmate, a neighbour, a friend, a relative or a spouse writing these things and you would never know.
    ...snip...

    Yes you would know. Because there are workplaces all across the country where Charles Kennedy would be called a "drunken slob" regularly. Because, to the average person in the street, that is what he was. He was not a towering colossus of UK Politics as the hypocritical former critics of Kennedy would try to have us believe, he was a man with a woeful attendance record and a serious alcohol problem who did not have any friends strong or good enough to persuade him to step down from public life while he still any sort of decent reputation.

    There is an apparent disconnect that the Faux Outrage wants us to believe whenever they start their latest tirade against twitter or other social media. It is based on an utterly ridiculous belief that the language used on twitter is not the language that people use EVERY DAY in the workplace, in the pub, in the text message or in the private conversation.

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Scott_P said:

    if it can't crash the economy and create total mayhem what is a Labour government for, exactly?

    And if that's all you want to do, you can vote SNP
    If you're not already following this twitter account - I'm sure you'd find it interesting !!

    https://twitter.com/Historywoman
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Dair said:

    OchEye said:

    I must admit that I have found a some what black humour in reading the CK eulogies in the press and remembering some of the criticsms that were made of him by the same journals in the past.

    I believe that the Sun even produced a picture of him to be pinned to dartboards.

    The difference between the papers and the CyberNATs is that you can make a choice to buy or not a paper, which even print contact details so that you can challenge them - the CyberNATs attack is to destroy with what ever is to hand and to hide in the shadows.

    What makes it so insidious, is that they could be a workmate, a neighbour, a friend, a relative or a spouse writing these things and you would never know.
    ...snip...

    Yes you would know. Because there are workplaces all across the country where Charles Kennedy would be called a "drunken slob" regularly. Because, to the average person in the street, that is what he was. He was not a towering colossus of UK Politics as the hypocritical former critics of Kennedy would try to have us believe, he was a man with a woeful attendance record and a serious alcohol problem who did not have any friends strong or good enough to persuade him to step down from public life while he still any sort of decent reputation.

    There is an apparent disconnect that the Faux Outrage wants us to believe whenever they start their latest tirade against twitter or other social media. It is based on an utterly ridiculous belief that the language used on twitter is not the language that people use EVERY DAY in the workplace, in the pub, in the text message or in the private conversation.

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.
    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    Just to make it clear, from Wiki:

    In Scotland, a loyalist is someone on the fringes of Scottish unionism who is often strongly supportive of loyalism and unionism, although mainly concentrating on the Irish union issue rather than on Scottish politics.[citation needed] Scottish loyalism is typified by militant opposition to Irish republicanism, Scottish independence and the Roman Catholic Church – particularly the existence of Catholic denominational schools

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalism#Scotland
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    MikeSmithson, Carlotta etc etc

    Cast your eye if you can onto the Daily Hate website comments section or the Hootsman for that matter and you will see piles of bile directed on line at Salmond on a daily basis. As it happens it is far worse than that aimed at Charles Kennedy. That doesn't make the attacks on Charles acceptable merely makes your attempt to exploit it as being a serious political point rather silly.

    Fact is any politician worth his or her salt endures on line abuse and much of it comes from people in or associated with their political rivals under the cover of anonymity. As it happens the SNP/YES campaign were more sinned against that sinners, according to the one academic analysis I have seen on this - by a Strathclyde academic, Mark Shephard if I recall correctly. However that doesn't make the abuse at all right only people who suggest it is an SNP thing entirely wrong.

    Also Mike several times you have pursued the ridiculous suggestion Salmond is "sexist" because of his put down of Soubrey. I suggest you get some feminist friends to guide you on what does and doesn't rate as sexism. And if you want to accuse Salmond of something which he clearly is not then find some real evidence anywhere in his political career. You will look for it in vain which rather suggests you are not above playing the man yourself albeit in a more polite way than the internet trolls.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited June 2015
    Hypothetical question. If Labour were indeed to "be ruthless with failing leaders", would it still insist that no such like principle should ever be applied to schools, hospitals or other producer interests?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Remember, unlike Messrs. Hague and Howard, IDS never led the Tory Party to electoral defeat!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Completely off-topic, but this was very surprising! And really rather good :)

    http://order-order.com/#_@/ZAlV3LhYHiq70w
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And all the OrangeFest references. I had no idea what relevance they've here either.
    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    OchEye said:

    I must admit that I have found a some what black humour in reading the CK eulogies in the press and remembering some of the criticsms that were made of him by the same journals in the past.

    I believe that the Sun even produced a picture of him to be pinned to dartboards.

    snip

    What makes it so insidious, is that they could be a workmate, a neighbour, a friend, a relative or a spouse writing these things and you would never know.
    ...snip...

    Yes you would know. Because there are workplaces all across the country where Charles Kennedy would be called a "drunken slob" regularly. Because, to the average person in the street, that is what he was. He was not a towering colossus of UK Politics as the hypocritical former critics of Kennedy would try to have us believe, he was a man with a woeful attendance record and a serious alcohol problem who did not have any friends strong or good enough to persuade him to step down from public life while he still any sort of decent reputation.

    There is an apparent disconnect that the Faux Outrage wants us to believe whenever they start their latest tirade against twitter or other social media. It is based on an utterly ridiculous belief that the language used on twitter is not the language that people use EVERY DAY in the workplace, in the pub, in the text message or in the private conversation.

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.
    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    Just to make it clear, from Wiki:

    In Scotland, a loyalist is someone on the fringes of Scottish unionism who is often strongly supportive of loyalism and unionism, although mainly concentrating on the Irish union issue rather than on Scottish politics.[citation needed] Scottish loyalism is typified by militant opposition to Irish republicanism, Scottish independence and the Roman Catholic Church – particularly the existence of Catholic denominational schools

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalism#Scotland
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:


    Yes you would know. Because there are workplaces all across the country where Charles Kennedy would be called a "drunken slob" regularly. Because, to the average person in the street, that is what he was. He was not a towering colossus of UK Politics as the hypocritical former critics of Kennedy would try to have us believe, he was a man with a woeful attendance record and a serious alcohol problem who did not have any friends strong or good enough to persuade him to step down from public life while he still any sort of decent reputation.

    There is an apparent disconnect that the Faux Outrage wants us to believe whenever they start their latest tirade against twitter or other social media. It is based on an utterly ridiculous belief that the language used on twitter is not the language that people use EVERY DAY in the workplace, in the pub, in the text message or in the private conversation.

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.
    I'm not a member of the SNP or associated with them in any way.

    What specifically turns you off with my comment. It is honest, deep down you probably know this. I suppose as a politician it serves you best to bury the head and ignore the reality about what people say and do when not subject to the sort of press "scrutiny" are talking about here. Or perhaps it is true that the current breed of Labour politico are so isolated from reality that the gritty nuances of life pass right over them.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    stuarta said:

    calum said:

    I'm despairing about SLAB's "strategy" at the moment, my twitter feed has been melting down over the last two days with carpet bombing by Kezia, Blair McD and John McT about Scotland being an economic basket case. They backup their case with endless graphs from IFS and a site called Chokkablog. Suffice to say whatever the facts of the matter, SLAB have been spinning this line for the last 6 months and it has taken them from polling 27% down to 19%, should they continue with "Plan A" they'll be at 15% before long.

    An IFS graph for 2019/20 showing a few % points difference in debt/GDP ratios is not going to mean anything to SLAB's supposed 190,000 supporters currently on holiday with the SNP. Also worth noting that the IFS is a right wing think tank not the Delphi Oracle.

    I think SLAB need a "Plan B" and quick, for starters they need to start being much more positive about Scotland and it's prospects. In terms of SLAB leadership, I don't think Kezia is the answer, particularly if she is seen as Murphy's appointee. SLAB need to stop demonising the SNP and the 60% of Scots now supporting them, instead of blaming others SLAB needs to take responsibility for its failure. As for kicking out SLAB members who voted for the SNP, how is that going to help attract folks back to SLAB?

    We've had years of negative stories about the NHS in Scotland under the SNP government: waiting lists, poor care, delays, low spending, dubious decisions over hospital closures. And yet the SNP are still seen as the saviour of the NHS in Scotland. Similarly, with education where the system isn't exactly going from strength to strength. Simply attacking the SNP over these things isn't the answer: Labour needs something inspiring. If Labour aren't able to convince people that they're the best party to look after the NHS and other public services, then what is the point of the Labour party?
    SLAB appears not only to have lost confidence in itself but in Scotland as a nation. Sadly the SLAB leadership and their "attack dogs" Blair McD and John McT have allowed themselves to become the instruments of the right wing MSM, they have given up even trying to take on the Tories and just relentlessly attack the SNP and Scots in general, Keir Hardie must be turning in his grave.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156


    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants).

    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!

    :lol:

  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    Danny565 said:

    What worries me most about the LL poll is the tiny gap between Kendall and Burnham. Where is she getting these supporters from?!?

    Yvette supporter
    https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Yvette_Cooper/media
    Area of most support - Yorkshire
    Guardian reader
    Shops at Waitrose
    Drives an Alfa Romeo
    Favourite Dish: Oat Cakes

    Liz supporter
    https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Elizabeth_Kendall/demographics
    Area of most support - Midlands
    Guardian reader
    Shops at Co-Op
    Drives a Suzuki
    Favourite Dish: patia Curry

    Andy supporter
    https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Andrew_Burnham/lifestyle
    Area of most support - North West
    Guardian reader
    Shops at Co-Op
    Drives a Skoda
    Favourite Dish: scouse (yes, really!)

    Jeremy
    https://yougov.co.uk/profiler#/Jeremy_Corbyn/demographics
    Area of most support - London
    Guardian reader
    Shops at Waitrose
    Drives a Skoda
    Favourite Dish: Sheeps Yoghurt
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!

    :lol:

    The fall of the Berlin wall signalled the end of this one...

    Did you hear about the East German Pole Vault champion?

    He is now the West German Pole Vault champion...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    Unlike terms such as "Separatist", "Successionist" or referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Scott_P said:

    Did you hear about the psephologist from Warsaw who moved to Haiti?

    He became a Voodoo Pole!

    :lol:

    The fall of the Berlin wall signalled the end of this one...

    Did you hear about the East German Pole Vault champion?

    He is now the West German Pole Vault champion...
    28 years ago today:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tear_down_this_wall!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:

    referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.

    Jon Stewart did that on Monday night. Is he next in line for Jihad?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    Test Cricket - a game invented, played and watched by people with far too much time on their hands :lol:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TomMcTague: Top exclusive by @MattChorley: Shadow Cabinet rebelling against 'panicking' Harman. Set to launch pro EU campaign http://t.co/2lg0tYI8R1
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    Unlike terms such as "Separatist", "Successionist" or referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.
    What's Eck's favourite bus company?

    Nationalist Express!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    "Successionist" .
    I think you mean "Secessionist"!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    edited June 2015

    Miss Plato, reminds me of a WrongSkin thing I heard about the other day. White guy, white parents, but he identifies as black.

    I heard from someone who worked in a school (over a decade ago, now) that you can pick whatever ethnicity you like on the official forms. So, if you want to be black, you can be. I'm uncertain whether inventing new ethnicities (purple, or spotty, or norkleporgish) is acceptable.

    This is a genuine problem. If you want definitions that can be diagnosed by a blood test then you're down to things like Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid and, um, that's it really. Other classifications are more fuzzily defined, things you think have a tight classification don't, and suddenly you're holding up paper bags and sticking pencils in hair.

    Allowing people to choose their own definitions is simpler, but it rests on the assumption that those people take it seriously. One thing I found profoundly disturbing about the Jedi Census phenomenon is that people would lie about their religion for fun...which if you think about it is absolutely horrible ("well, it's only a bit of fun, yeah?" "No. Really, no. You dumb fuck.").

    And sometimes the line between "people taking the piss" and "genuinely held belief" is difficult to discern. There's a cluster of Norse god believers on the coast of North East England: deluded heavy metal fans or expatriate Scandinavian fishermen? Santeria followers in London: horror movie fans or Caribbean expats? People seek the numinous and divine in their own way and some with a sincerity that is truly touching: others treat it as a joke and get pissed. Telling the difference is not easy.

    So to answer your question: if enough people claim "norgleporgish" as their ethnicity and do so long enough for bureaucratic inertia to catch up, eventually it will be coded as a separate classification (this is the UK: we do not "officially recognise religions", thank you).
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    "Successionist" .
    I think you mean "Secessionist"!
    Yes, damn 6 minute limit.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    On topic, this is a job for a Futarchy.

    If the markets show non-incumbent X out-performing incumbent Y by more than 5%, have an automatic secret-ballot parliamentary party confidence vote.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.

    Jon Stewart did that on Monday night. Is he next in line for Jihad?
    When the SNP's Stormtroopers catch up with him, he'll rue the day.

    Bins emptied over the lawn, and a barrage of hate from Scotchlands finest CyberNats.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    edited June 2015
    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    England clearly want to chase down a record target today.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    viewcode said:

    Miss Plato, reminds me of a WrongSkin thing I heard about the other day. White guy, white parents, but he identifies as black.

    I heard from someone who worked in a school (over a decade ago, now) that you can pick whatever ethnicity you like on the official forms. So, if you want to be black, you can be. I'm uncertain whether inventing new ethnicities (purple, or spotty, or norkleporgish) is acceptable.

    This is a genuine problem. If you want definitions that can be diagnosed by a blood test then you're down to things like Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid and, um, that's it really. Other classifications are more fuzzily defined, things you think have a tight classification don't, and suddenly you're holding up paper bags and sticking pencils in hair.
    I thought A, B and Rh+ markers were the only things that could be discerned by blood !
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    viewcode said:

    One thing I found profoundly disturbing about the Jedi Census phenomenon is that people would lie about their religion for fun...which if you think about it is absolutely horrible ("well, it's only a bit of fun, yeah?" "No. Really, no. You dumb fuck.").

    Has it occurred to you that many of the "Jedi" were actually protesting about the question being asked at all?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants). But I'm thinking of giving him my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants). But I'm thinking of giving him my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.
    Of course it says more about the readers of Labour list than the members in general- but the 1900+ base size is not shabby
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    edited June 2015
    Re online horribleness, not that I have not on hopefully rare occasions given in to the temptation to move over to the dark side, one of the worst aspects of it is the justification argument of 'you can dish it out, not take it' in retort, rather ignoring that even if one accepted that as a reasonable attitude (opinion is divided I think it fair to say), far far too often those who 'dish it out' do so to everyone, regardless of whether that target person 'dishes it out' as well, and thus in such an arrangement implicitly agreed to 'take it' in return.

    I certainly have in moments of frustration and weakness treated others horribly or with thoughtless offence, but I like to make an effort not to do so, and those who have no desire to even attempt to avoid such a style - and on here I find them far and few between in general, thank goodness - are just wearying.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    England clearly want to chase down a record target today.
    Looks like it may well be over 400 again, maybe 450. Jordan's third over goes for 21. He is barely a first change bowler. I really don't understand him opening or, to be honest, being in the side.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants). But I'm thinking of giving him my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.

    Jeremy Corbyn has emerged the surprise winner in this week’s LabourList readers’ survey. Although the leftwing MP is not even guaranteed to make the ballot when nominations for the Labour leadership close on Monday, he won this vote by 47%.

    http://labourlist.org/2015/06/jeremy-corbyn-emerges-as-the-winner-in-labourlist-leadership-survey/

    Well, it's a voodoo poll (self-selected online participants). But I'm thinking of giving him my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.
    Of course it says more about the readers of Labour list than the members in general- but the 1900+ base size is not shabby
    Shows Corbyn has a vocal minority on his side. Could make things awkward if he makes the ballot.

    Last time round, how many MPs made any nomination at all?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    Unlike terms such as "Separatist", "Successionist" or referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.
    Is there nowhere else you can go and exercise your views on what is frankly a niche topic, Scottish politics. Because frankly it's boring the tits off the rest of us.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    That LabourList poll is very surprising, even taking into account the self selecting participants. Whichever one of Burnham or Cooper gets elected is in real danger of not having the traditional honeymoon period new leaders have as there isn't anything inspiring about either of them so far.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    On topic, this has been the model of assassination the Tories have been following for years, Labour should study it.

    We don't stab our leaders in the back, we stab them in the front, usually very publicly

    http://youtu.be/7FvgP5hO99o
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    saddened said:

    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    Unlike terms such as "Separatist", "Successionist" or referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.
    Is there nowhere else you can go and exercise your views on what is frankly a niche topic, Scottish politics. Because frankly it's boring the tits off the rest of us.
    The SNP website describes itself as "A left leaning nationalist party advocating secession from the United Kingdom"
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    But I'm thinking of giving [Jeremy Corbyn] my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.

    It would be very funny if Jeremy Corbyn accidentally ended up as Labour leader as a result of lots of people doing that!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424

    viewcode said:

    One thing I found profoundly disturbing about the Jedi Census phenomenon is that people would lie about their religion for fun...which if you think about it is absolutely horrible ("well, it's only a bit of fun, yeah?" "No. Really, no. You dumb fuck.").

    Has it occurred to you that many of the "Jedi" were actually protesting about the question being asked at all?
    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    Remember, unlike Messrs. Hague and Howard, IDS never led the Tory Party to electoral defeat!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,932
    kle4 said:

    Re online horribleness, not that I have not on hopefully rare occasions given in to the temptation to move over to the dark side, one of the worst aspects of it is the justification argument of 'you can dish it out, not take it' in retort, rather ignoring that even if one accepted that as a reasonable attitude (opinion is divided I think it fair to say), far far too often those who 'dish it out' do so to everyone, regardless of whether that target person 'dishes it out' as well, and thus in such an arrangement implicitly agreed to 'take it' in return.

    I certainly have in moments of frustration and weakness treated others horribly or with thoughtless offence, but I like to make an effort not to do so, and those who have no desire to even attempt to avoid such a style - and on here I find them far and few between in general, thank goodness - are just wearying.

    As a suggestion, maybe we should ignore postings from rude people. Also rude postings from normally polite people.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    viewcode said:

    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

    I think we have the 'hyperbole of the week' winner.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    England clearly want to chase down a record target today.
    Looks like it may well be over 400 again, maybe 450. Jordan's third over goes for 21. He is barely a first change bowler. I really don't understand him opening or, to be honest, being in the side.
    Bring back Jade Dernbach!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981

    viewcode said:

    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

    I think we have the 'hyperbole of the week' winner.
    That's not even close.

    The other day one of the Nats said the comments on PB were a reason why there should be a second Indyref.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424
    Pulpstar said:

    viewcode said:

    Miss Plato, reminds me of a WrongSkin thing I heard about the other day. White guy, white parents, but he identifies as black.

    I heard from someone who worked in a school (over a decade ago, now) that you can pick whatever ethnicity you like on the official forms. So, if you want to be black, you can be. I'm uncertain whether inventing new ethnicities (purple, or spotty, or norkleporgish) is acceptable.

    This is a genuine problem. If you want definitions that can be diagnosed by a blood test then you're down to things like Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid and, um, that's it really. Other classifications are more fuzzily defined, things you think have a tight classification don't, and suddenly you're holding up paper bags and sticking pencils in hair.
    I thought A, B and Rh+ markers were the only things that could be discerned by blood !
    I could try and cover my arse by saying bloodgroups have a different distribution by race (true, by the way: AB is far more prevalent in Japan than UK). And similarly some blood constituents are more present in some races than others (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction ). But it would have been more accurate if I had said "physiological test", which would have covered things like blood tests, gene scans, bone marrow samples, etc.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    England clearly want to chase down a record target today.
    Looks like it may well be over 400 again, maybe 450. Jordan's third over goes for 21. He is barely a first change bowler. I really don't understand him opening or, to be honest, being in the side.
    Bring back Jade Dernbach!
    Never. But this bowling attack has far too many make dos. Exciting batter though he is 10 overs from Stokes is usually going to be 5 too many.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424

    viewcode said:

    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

    I think we have the 'hyperbole of the week' winner.
    I was using hyperbole as an example, not being hyperbolic: I was not recommending bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    Freggles said:
    David Miliband's reaction to confetti reminds me of the reaction of Les to chives.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    edited June 2015
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Jordan opening the bowling for England. I mean, really?

    England clearly want to chase down a record target today.
    Looks like it may well be over 400 again, maybe 450. Jordan's third over goes for 21. He is barely a first change bowler. I really don't understand him opening or, to be honest, being in the side.
    Bring back Jade Dernbach!
    Never. But this bowling attack has far too many make dos. Exciting batter though he is 10 overs from Stokes is usually going to be 5 too many.
    I think the ECB are trying to manage the workload. Over the next 18 months we've got I think 24 tests, 40 limited over matches and a t20 World Cup.

    That's the sort of schedule that ruins the career of the bowlers and leads to mental burn out like Trotty.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

    I think we have the 'hyperbole of the week' winner.
    I was using hyperbole as an example, not being hyperbolic: I was not recommending bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.


    It's one of those irregular verbs...
    • I use exaggerated examples to make a point.
    • Your examples are hyperbolic.
    • He is a raving nutter.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    But I'm thinking of giving [Jeremy Corbyn] my first preference at the moment if he's on the ballot (and I'm not your typical hard left member) - he's clearly not a likely winner of floating voters, but I'd like to send a message to the candidates that I want a clear theme from them, not just lots of platitudes.

    It would be very funny if Jeremy Corbyn accidentally ended up as Labour leader as a result of lots of people doing that!
    Very funny is understating it somewhat. But perhaps the Tories should beware the Corgasm?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Eric Morecambe famously said to Mr Preview !! that he was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.

    Labour on the other hand are playing all the wrong notes and undoubtedly in the wrong order. From the fighting that's going on in front of the media (cf The World at One), and what I read in the Daily Jackboot, no one wants Ed anywhere near their candidature or would offer him any kind of job.. Oh the deep ingratitude of it all.

    Will Ed end up over the waves just like his brother?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,424

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Yes it did. The importance of religion outweighs the benefit of the protest. It's like bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.

    I think we have the 'hyperbole of the week' winner.
    I was using hyperbole as an example, not being hyperbolic: I was not recommending bombing Serbia to protest at Eurovision bloc voting.


    It's one of those irregular verbs...
    • I use exaggerated examples to make a point.
    • Your examples are hyperbolic.
    • He is a raving nutter.
    Indeed.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952
    saddened said:

    Dair said:

    Charles said:

    I don't really know much about Scottish nationalism, never express an opinion about it, and am not entirely opposed to Scottish independence if that's what Scots eventually want. But this sort of post just seems gratuitously unpleasant. I'm not sure if you care whether you're giving us a good impression of the SNP, but if you do, maybe rein it in a bit, huh? I'm not Outraged, faux or otherwise, just mildly turned off.

    Ditto.

    And also stop with the "Loyalism" thing. It has a very specific meaning in the context of UK politics and is unbelievably insulting to ordinary Unionists to be branded as such.

    ...snip...
    Unlike terms such as "Separatist", "Successionist" or referring to the SNP as the Scottish Nationalist Party.
    Is there nowhere else you can go and exercise your views on what is frankly a niche topic, Scottish politics. Because frankly it's boring the tits off the rest of us.
    Frankly, I wish he'd do a better job. My moobs refuse to budge....
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Mr. Mark, Brown.

    Brown culled a slew of leadership candidates, and Labour didn't help themselves when Bananaman bottled it and failed to follow James Purnell [perhaps on the advice of his dastardly brother].

    Whom did Brown cull ?
    John Reid for one. The fact that no one could face Brown when bBair resigned was an utter disaster for the labour party looking back.
    Reid effectively retired and declined Brown's offer of a Cabinet position.

    Maybe you're right and Brown did cull opponents but off the top of my head I can only think of Robin Cook and Mo Mowlam who were both axed by Tony Blair.
    Robin Cook was not axed - he resigned over Iraq.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Credit where credit is due.....

    Well done to the SNP for taking decisive action in regard to the vile online abuse of Charles Kennedy. The remarks and methods have been accepted as being wholly inappropriate by the SNP* and hopefully this will never happen again.

    * Official SNP McSpokeperson
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,952

    Eric Morecambe famously said to Mr Preview !! that he was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.

    Labour on the other hand are playing all the wrong notes and undoubtedly in the wrong order. From the fighting that's going on in front of the media (cf The World at One), and what I read in the Daily Jackboot, no one wants Ed anywhere near their candidature or would offer him any kind of job.. Oh the deep ingratitude of it all.

    Will Ed end up over the waves just like his brother?

    Ed could join International Rescue like his brother - but only if he agrees to be up in space in Thunderbird 5....

    It's what the Labour Party would want.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Labourlist commenters are giving the Corbyn landslide a warm welcome...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    justin124 said:

    Mr. Mark, Brown.

    Brown culled a slew of leadership candidates, and Labour didn't help themselves when Bananaman bottled it and failed to follow James Purnell [perhaps on the advice of his dastardly brother].

    Whom did Brown cull ?
    John Reid for one. The fact that no one could face Brown when bBair resigned was an utter disaster for the labour party looking back.
    Reid effectively retired and declined Brown's offer of a Cabinet position.

    Maybe you're right and Brown did cull opponents but off the top of my head I can only think of Robin Cook and Mo Mowlam who were both axed by Tony Blair.
    Robin Cook was not axed - he resigned over Iraq.
    He was sacked as Foreign Secretary and demoted to Leader of the House.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    raining in Sussex must be heading towards the oval....
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Eric Morecambe famously said to Mr Preview !! that he was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.

    Labour on the other hand are playing all the wrong notes and undoubtedly in the wrong order. From the fighting that's going on in front of the media (cf The World at One), and what I read in the Daily Jackboot, no one wants Ed anywhere near their candidature or would offer him any kind of job.. Oh the deep ingratitude of it all.

    Will Ed end up over the waves just like his brother?

    Ed could join International Rescue like his brother - but only if he agrees to be up in space in Thunderbird 5....

    It's what the Labour Party would want.
    Maybe but if I recollect correctly Thunderbird 3 has a restriction on carry on, bit like Squeezyjet which is why T3 is painted orange. What to do with all that additional baggage he comes with heh? Don't even start on mentioning the EdStone at the check in desk.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited June 2015

    Eric Morecambe famously said to Mr Preview !! that he was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.

    Labour on the other hand are playing all the wrong notes and undoubtedly in the wrong order. From the fighting that's going on in front of the media (cf The World at One), and what I read in the Daily Jackboot, no one wants Ed anywhere near their candidature or would offer him any kind of job.. Oh the deep ingratitude of it all.

    Will Ed end up over the waves just like his brother?

    Ed could join International Rescue like his brother - but only if he agrees to be up in space in Thunderbird 5....

    It's what the Labour Party would want.

    I think Labour want him in Thunderbird 3 in that episode where Thunderbird 3 is heading directly for the sun!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT75AR5YYuw
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Danny565 said:

    What worries me most about the LL poll is the tiny gap between Kendall and Burnham. Where is she getting these supporters from?!?

    Despite the rhetoric, Kendall's position on the unions is actually to the left of Burnham. I think Corbyn in the race helps her.
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