What will make a difference in the North is a party in second place that isn't associated with Maggie Thatcher. Suddenly those safest of Labour seats will become harder for Labour as hardcore anyone but Tory vote has another option....
Looking back Carswell accidently wrecked UKIP by ensuring they fought two by-elections at the same time. If UKIP had won Heywood and Middleton it would have shown that UKIP was a party that could win in the north and Labour would be in a far worse state....
Although in fairness, Carswell defected and called the by-election before Jim Dobbin died, so without a crystal ball I don't really see how he could have known that. What mattered (in hindsight) was that Labour absolutely rushed the process in order to get the by-elections on the same day rather than a week apart (at which point I suggest that UKIP might well have won Heywood & Middleton)
The other one on the radio this morning was the whole drink driving limit being threatening to be cut to half a mouthful of shady or so.
I'd like to see the stats on RTCs with people between the Scottish limit and our existing limit... one of the things I am hoping for with a Conservative Majority Government is not bringing in nonsense measures like that.
The other one on the radio this morning was the whole drink driving limit being threatening to be cut to half a mouthful of shady or so.
I'd like to see the stats on RTCs with people between the Scottish limit and our existing limit... one of the things I am hoping for with a Conservative Majority Government is not bringing in nonsense measures like that.
I don't know how they'll call it. They were seriously talking about minimum pricing for alcohol in the last parliament.
There's lots of intriguing stuff in there, but this paragraph particularly struck me:
The working-class support on which Labour has relied is melting away in the north. In Scotland it is already gone. The SNP may not retain its current level of popularity for long. But when it proves unable to deliver on its promises, the opposition to it is more likely to be expressed in internal fissures and the formation of new movements (a process made easier by the proportional voting system for elections to Holyrood) than in any revival of Labour.
A Labour shadow cabinet minister has called for the leadership candidates to offer the party the chance to get rid of them in 2018 if they are underperforming.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon, the Labour leader in the House of Lords, is one of a number of senior figures who would like the option of a “break clause” to prevent the party going into the 2020 election with a weak leader if it feels the wrong choice has been made.
The other one on the radio this morning was the whole drink driving limit being threatening to be cut to half a mouthful of shady or so.
I'd like to see the stats on RTCs with people between the Scottish limit and our existing limit... one of the things I am hoping for with a Conservative Majority Government is not bringing in nonsense measures like that.
Country Pubs, Restaurants and Golf clubs in Scotland are being hammered by this crazy law.
It's like everything else - trying to emphasise a difference between the nation for no good reason.
An idea not based on facts which should go straight in the bin.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
So it seems. On that basis, it would seem that for a contractor to decline to support a political or religious cause they disagree with is unlawful discrimination. I hope they appeal.
A Labour shadow cabinet minister has called for the leadership candidates to offer the party the chance to get rid of them in 2018 if they are underperforming.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon, the Labour leader in the House of Lords, is one of a number of senior figures who would like the option of a “break clause” to prevent the party going into the 2020 election with a weak leader if it feels the wrong choice has been made.
An interesting question is why they are generally more accurate in other countries - e.g. in Germany they tend to be spot on.
They were wildly out in 2005 when all the polls predicted a comfortable CDU/CSU win and the exit poll and final result was a virtual dead-heat between them and the SDP, giving Schroeder hope of staying in office.
The German system is more proportional so they 'only' need to get the percentages right, in the UK they have to guess the marginals too.
Also the FDP (and now AFD) and the 5% threshold make for difficult polling, given the consequences.
@Morris Dancer - " she added the uses of hashtags such as "kill all white men" on her personal account were "in-jokes and ways that many people in the queer feminist community express ourselves"."
I don't doubt that for a second.
Presumably it would be ok therefore to substitute Jew, black, etc for white should one take a different view? I mean if they're just in-jokes....and how people in the racist community express themselves.
There's lots of intriguing stuff in there, but this paragraph particularly struck me:
The working-class support on which Labour has relied is melting away in the north. In Scotland it is already gone. The SNP may not retain its current level of popularity for long. But when it proves unable to deliver on its promises, the opposition to it is more likely to be expressed in internal fissures and the formation of new movements (a process made easier by the proportional voting system for elections to Holyrood) than in any revival of Labour.
If the SNP split but Labour stay the same that's still pretty good news for Labour in FPTP Westminster seats, presumably.
There's lots of intriguing stuff in there, but this paragraph particularly struck me:
The working-class support on which Labour has relied is melting away in the north. In Scotland it is already gone. The SNP may not retain its current level of popularity for long. But when it proves unable to deliver on its promises, the opposition to it is more likely to be expressed in internal fissures and the formation of new movements (a process made easier by the proportional voting system for elections to Holyrood) than in any revival of Labour.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
So it seems. On that basis, it would seem that for a contractor to decline to support a political or religious cause they disagree with is unlawful discrimination. I hope they appeal.
In England and Wales, at least, political belief is not protected except in relation to Trade Unions.
If the SNP split but Labour stay the same that's still pretty good news for Labour in FPTP Westminster seats, presumably.
True in the short term, but Holyrood's proportional system might create room for a splinter party to build up the critical mass needed to shatter even that expectation, especially given the degree to which the Labour vote collapsed in the GE.
Any comments on the report that we had deflation in April, largely due to the drop in air & see fairs? (Which as someone who flies East quite often I really haven’t noticed!)
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
There were periods of whole weeks during ed's tenure when I feared he might not be as crap as I hoped. And as rubbish political leaders go, he was never in the same league as the quiet man - something tories tend to forget.
Right, I forgot about IDS unveiling a giant tombstone to his entire political philosophy and career.
Oh, wait...
Please don't do that "Oh, wait" thing, it's as irritating as "fixed that for you" and "This".
And what you clearly have forgotten about is the quiet man still being here, and turning up the volume. Have a Youtube of that, and tell me it is not infinitely more embarrassing than a Stonehengeful of EdStones.
"A Labour shadow cabinet minister has called for the leadership candidates to offer the party the chance to get rid of them in 2018 if they are underperforming." The key question is why the Labour MPs have been so stupid as to leave Brown and then Miliband in place? They seem to be incapable of knowing what a winning Leader looks like.
If the SNP split but Labour stay the same that's still pretty good news for Labour in FPTP Westminster seats, presumably.
True in the short term, but Holyrood's proportional system might create room for a splinter party to build up the critical mass needed to shatter even that expectation, especially given the degree to which the Labour vote collapsed in the GE.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
If the SNP split but Labour stay the same that's still pretty good news for Labour in FPTP Westminster seats, presumably.
True in the short term, but Holyrood's proportional system might create room for a splinter party to build up the critical mass needed to shatter even that expectation, especially given the degree to which the Labour vote collapsed in the GE.
Another salient factor is that Labour (with about 25% of the vote at present) might itself split first: too early to say yet admittedly.
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
I think it should be fundamental to a free society that people can choose to support, or withold support for any political or religious cause they choose, without falling foul of the law.
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
"Accordingly, as of midnight tonight, Buckingham will no longer be represented in the House of Commons, thus reducing the size of the chamber to 649."
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
Well there is one quick way to reduce the number by 59....
Maybe just trim a couple from Wales, and leave the rest alone?
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
Cue merging Orkney & Shetland with the Western Isles to remove the last Scottish Lib Dem MP and having a parliament of 649 MP's.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
I think it should be fundamental to a free society that people can choose to support, or withold support for any political or religious cause they choose, without falling foul of the law.
So if a mixed race couple want a wedding cake with mixed race figurines, and the baker feels that goes against their Christian principles (Southern Baptist c.1960/Dutch Reform Church c.1980) that baker should have the right to say no?
As an Atheist I believe in peoples freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion. In a profit making enterprise, the former should trump the latter IMHO.
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
This is one manifesto commitment that could probably be quietly ditched without too much fuss. Who exactly is going to pick David Cameron up on it?
"Accordingly, as of midnight tonight, Buckingham will no longer be represented in the House of Commons, thus reducing the size of the chamber to 649."
Cameron was trolling Bercow in his speech yesterday
I noticed during the first that there was some confusion in the media about whether my party had won 330 or 331 seats in the general election. It seems the media were unsure about whether you are a Conservative. I am sure you find this as baffling as I did.
On the question of whether the government will go ahead with the reduction in the number of MPs to 600, what the manifesto said was this:
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
This is one manifesto commitment that could probably be quietly ditched without too much fuss. Who exactly is going to pick David Cameron up on it?
If they play it really skilfully they might get Labour to propose the amendment...
There were periods of whole weeks during ed's tenure when I feared he might not be as crap as I hoped. And as rubbish political leaders go, he was never in the same league as the quiet man - something tories tend to forget.
Right, I forgot about IDS unveiling a giant tombstone to his entire political philosophy and career.
Oh, wait...
Please don't do that "Oh, wait" thing, it's as irritating as "fixed that for you" and "This".
And what you clearly have forgotten about is the quiet man still being here, and turning up the volume. Have a Youtube of that, and tell me it is not infinitely more embarrassing than a Stonehengeful of EdStones.
The funny thing is that IDS (or the Conservatives led by IDS) did not flop at the ballot box, so it was more his weekly failure at PMQs that caused backbenchers to panic and frontbenchers to plot.
Pulpstar The LDs and Labour will have different leaders by 2020, there is also likely to be unionist tactical voting next year at Holyrood to try and stop another SNP majority, certainly Tories will be less concerned voting Liberal or Labour outside the borders and West Aberdeenshire on the constituency vote at Holyrood now there is no risk of Ed M becoming PM
On the polls 3 of the final polls had the Tories ahead, 1 Labour, the rest had it tied, so really the polls got it wrong only in so far as they thought it would be very close, they were well off a Tory majority, however they still suggested Cameron, not Miliband, would end up being PM so on that score were not as far from the final winner as has been suggested
Bond Cooper or Burnham could be PM in the right circumstances, especially as Cameron will not be running again, predicting the 2020 election now is as foolhardy as predicting the 1997 result in May 1992
snip For vast chunks of the last 5 years, the debate tended to swirl around the following loop "Christ, Ed's not very good" "Ah, but he's leading in the polls" "But he won't win come the election" "Ah, but he's leading in the polls" HUZZAH for the rubbish polls.
Don't forget, 'the Tories need to be 11% ahead in England'!
One comment I would make about this, regarding the boundary changes.
Regardless of whether they favour the Conservatives in a mean sense, by taking away more seats from the depopulated Labour heartlands, I think they will also favour the Tories because the Tories currently have a campaigning edge. With new boundaries there will be new marginals, and the parties will have to target new swing voters.
The Tories showed this time that they are currently better at that than Labour, out-performing UNS by nine seats, and so the simple process of reshuffling the identity of the marginal constituencies will benefit them as the party best able to refocus their efforts.
These two effects together make it possible for the Tories to retain a majority even with a modest swing to Labour.
The opposite way to read the same data is that the Tories beat UNS because of incumbency, and shuffling the seats around will bollocks it up.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
George Osborne really is heir-to-Brown and it will be interesting to see if his Brown-like urge to tinker in departmental matters causes tensions with cabinet colleagues.
"Accordingly, as of midnight tonight, Buckingham will no longer be represented in the House of Commons, thus reducing the size of the chamber to 649."
Cameron was trolling Bercow in his speech yesterday
I noticed during the first that there was some confusion in the media about whether my party had won 330 or 331 seats in the general election. It seems the media were unsure about whether you are a Conservative. I am sure you find this as baffling as I did.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
Yes, Cameron is completely vacuous, but I've always had respect for Osborne
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
I think it should be fundamental to a free society that people can choose to support, or withold support for any political or religious cause they choose, without falling foul of the law.
So if a mixed race couple want a wedding cake with mixed race figurines, and the baker feels that goes against their Christian principles (Southern Baptist c.1960/Dutch Reform Church c.1980) that baker should have the right to say no?
As an Atheist I believe in peoples freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion. In a profit making enterprise, the former should trump the latter IMHO.
It's their business and they have the right to do what they wish. You would be free to take your business elsewhere, even intolerant illiberal individuals such as yourself.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
Wow.
Considering the absolute derision that frequently gets heaped on Osbourne, that is quite a statement coming from someone with left-leanings. Nonetheless, I think you are right. He is greatly underrated as is (was?) Cameron
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
So it seems. On that basis, it would seem that for a contractor to decline to support a political or religious cause they disagree with is unlawful discrimination. I hope they appeal.
The contractor doesn't have to "support" anything, they just need to do their job. Baking a cake isn't supporting a cause, it is baking a cake.
Should a contractor be allowed to say "no Jews, no blacks, no Irish" - I thought we'd moved on from that being acceptable decades ago. I see no need to return to allowing that.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
snip For vast chunks of the last 5 years, the debate tended to swirl around the following loop "Christ, Ed's not very good" "Ah, but he's leading in the polls" "But he won't win come the election" "Ah, but he's leading in the polls" HUZZAH for the rubbish polls.
Don't forget, 'the Tories need to be 11% ahead in England'!
Have we had a post about how Cons cant win without Cameron*
*The chap this site suggested many times that him winning most seats vs Ed was a "coin toss" ?
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
I think it should be fundamental to a free society that people can choose to support, or withold support for any political or religious cause they choose, without falling foul of the law.
So if a mixed race couple want a wedding cake with mixed race figurines, and the baker feels that goes against their Christian principles (Southern Baptist c.1960/Dutch Reform Church c.1980) that baker should have the right to say no?
As an Atheist I believe in peoples freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion. In a profit making enterprise, the former should trump the latter IMHO.
That's not a good analogy.
The analogy would be if someone were asked to bake a cake with the slogan "support mixed race marriage now.". IMHO, the baker should be entitled to refuse.
As to freedom from religion, I would fully support the right of an atheist businessman to decline an order from a religious group to produce material promoting that religion.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
What a bunch of muppets running that business.
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
No he shouldn't be entitled to refuse, neither should the catholic baker. They've entered into a for-profit business, not a religious act.
I think it should be fundamental to a free society that people can choose to support, or withold support for any political or religious cause they choose, without falling foul of the law.
So if a mixed race couple want a wedding cake with mixed race figurines, and the baker feels that goes against their Christian principles (Southern Baptist c.1960/Dutch Reform Church c.1980) that baker should have the right to say no?
As an Atheist I believe in peoples freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion. In a profit making enterprise, the former should trump the latter IMHO.
It's their business and they have the right to do what they wish. You would be free to take your business elsewhere, even intolerant illiberal individuals such as yourself.
Intolerant Illiberal? Whats your basis for that accusation?
I am intolerant of intolerance, from the Christopher Hitchens school of thought.
Like i say in private people are free to practice whatever they want to believe, when it comes to profit making enterprises, religion/discrimination stops at the door.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
George Osborne really is heir-to-Brown and it will be interesting to see if his Brown-like urge to tinker in departmental matters causes tensions with cabinet colleagues.
Osborne is much more at ease with himself than Brown and far less obsessive. He also strikes me as someone who will listen to other points of view rather than shout them down. He is obsessed with point-scoring and was not that impressive for the first two or three years at the Treasury - in fact he looked well out of his depth, even if he wasn't - but over the last two years he has grown into someone of real stature. I don't like much of what he does, but I like the fact he clearly thinks beyond the next week. What he is doing on English devolution is kind of below the radar, but could be transformative.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
George Osborne really is heir-to-Brown and it will be interesting to see if his Brown-like urge to tinker in departmental matters causes tensions with cabinet colleagues.
Such a vacuous claim. If Brown cut the deficit every year then we wouldn't be in financial difficulties now.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
At the risk of going all Godwin, should they be able to decline a cake decorated with a swastika? Or an inverted cross surrounded by the number 6, 6 and 6.
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
Wow.
Considering the absolute derision that frequently gets heaped on Osbourne, that is quite a statement coming from someone with left-leanings. Nonetheless, I think you are right. He is greatly underrated as is (was?) Cameron
I'm afraid I think that Cameron is vastly over-rated as a politician. He is what he is: a PR man who knows how to give a good speech and likes being PM. I'd put Osborne way above him. George v Boris should be a no contest. That it isn't is a terrible condemnation of the political culture of our country.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Yes. They should be allowed to decline to make any cake that conflicts with their personal beliefs. Should a Palestinian refugee whose home has been blown up and family killed be forced to make a cake with a Star of David? According to your theory they should. Different messages mean different things to different people, and it is entirely proper in a free society to decline to do something that is against your beliefs unless it conflicts with the duties of your salaried position - in which case it is a matter for your employer.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
So it seems. On that basis, it would seem that for a contractor to decline to support a political or religious cause they disagree with is unlawful discrimination. I hope they appeal.
The contractor doesn't have to "support" anything, they just need to do their job. Baking a cake isn't supporting a cause, it is baking a cake.
Should a contractor be allowed to say "no Jews, no blacks, no Irish" - I thought we'd moved on from that being acceptable decades ago. I see no need to return to allowing that.
But, they are being required to support a political cause they disagree with, or else pay damages. It cuts both ways. If someone wants a cake saying "oppose gay marriage" shouldn't a contractor be entitled to decline the order if he supports gay marriage?
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Does an orthodox Jewish baker have the right to refuse to make a Christian cake because he doesn't like Christians, of course. What part of its their business and they are free to serve whomsoever they choose do people not understand?
So, if a Muslim printer were asked to print flyers condemning Islam, should he be entitled to refuse? Or if a Catholic baker were asked to bake a cake with the slogan, "Support the right to march" should he be allowed to say no?
If someone with a religious outlook takes the view that gay relationships are wrong, that is fine - such a person should be true to their principles and not have a gay relationship. However, it does not give them the right to judge other people whose views differ from theirs.
TheScreamingEagles said:
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
BTW Mr Eagles your post was incorrect - the bakery WAS found guilty of discrimination
"BELFAST, May 19 (Reuters) - A Northern Ireland bakery owned by devout Christians who refused to bake a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan was found guilty of discrimination in Belfast on Tuesday"
George Osborne is by far the most impressive and interesting Tory politician out there. He seems to have real ideas that can actually be turned into real policy. I don't like a lot of what he does, but he is brilliant at doing it and beyond the Brownite point-scoring he clearly thinks deeply about some of the most important issues we face as a country. I'd love to know what his real views are on the EU and our membership of it. If we had PR he would be an absolute shoe-in for next Tory leader - and deservedly so.
George Osborne really is heir-to-Brown and it will be interesting to see if his Brown-like urge to tinker in departmental matters causes tensions with cabinet colleagues.
Osborne is much more at ease with himself than Brown and far less obsessive. He also strikes me as someone who will listen to other points of view rather than shout them down. He is obsessed with point-scoring and was not that impressive for the first two or three years at the Treasury - in fact he looked well out of his depth, even if he wasn't - but over the last two years he has grown into someone of real stature. I don't like much of what he does, but I like the fact he clearly thinks beyond the next week. What he is doing on English devolution is kind of below the radar, but could be transformative.
He is the most serious option for the next Conservative leader. I find him equally impressive and a great strategic thinker.
His trouble is he doesn't look or sound human. That's why he and Cameron make such a good pair.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Does an orthodox Jewish baker have the right to refuse to make a Christian cake because he doesn't like Christians, of course. What part of its their business and they are free to serve whomsoever they choose do people not understand?
But the law says you are WRONG! We do not live in a libertarian eutopia, we live in a country where profit making enterprises are governed by rules that protect consumers.
It may not be the situation you like, but it is the situation.
Intolerant Illiberal? Whats your basis for that accusation?
I am intolerant of intolerance, from the Christopher Hitchens school of thought.
Like i say in private people are free to practice whatever they want to believe, when it comes to profit making enterprises, religion/discrimination stops at the door.
You're being grotesquely illiberal, sadly you can't see it. Liberalism doesn't extend until you find something you don't particularly like. God save us from hectoring hatetheists - so 2010.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Yes. They should be allowed to decline to make any cake that conflicts with their personal beliefs. Should a Palestinian refugee whose home has been blown up and family killed be forced to make a cake with a Star of David? According to your theory they should. Different messages mean different things to different people, and it is entirely proper in a free society to decline to do something that is against your beliefs unless it conflicts with the duties of your salaried position - in which case it is a matter for your employer.
A Palestinian refugee shouldn't be dragged off the streets and forced to make a cake with a Star of David on it. But if he accepts a job in a cake shop which makes bespoke cakes then, as the courts have just ruled, he does have to make a cake with a Star or David on it.
What on earth is wrong with discrimination.We all do it every day..it simply means choice ...and we choose things on a daily basis...personally I am all for it as it seems to be a basic human right.
But, they are being required to support a political cause they disagree with, or else pay damages. It cuts both ways. If someone wants a cake saying "oppose gay marriage" shouldn't a contractor be entitled to decline the order if he supports gay marriage?
This has nothing to do with no blacks etc.
Absolutely it has to do with no blacks etc, if that's how you're turning down your product then that is the right comparison.
A baker that does custom cakes ought to be able to do both a cake saying "support gay marriage" and one saying "oppose gay marriage". All they're doing is baking the cake, they're not stamping their own approval saying "I agree with this personally" on either.
How a baker wants to express his views in his personal time is up to him, but in the cause of their work they are working.
I'm afraid I think that Cameron is vastly over-rated as a politician. He is what he is: a PR man who knows how to give a good speech and likes being PM. I'd put Osborne way above him. George v Boris should be a no contest. That it isn't is a terrible condemnation of the political culture of our country.
I cannot recall the military man who told another that he was not that good a General but he seemed to be lucky and a lucky General was always appreciated. I think Cameron is in that mold. Deeply unimpressive but somehow he always seems to come through.
I wonder whether George Osborne will miss Ed Balls. I think he might.
He will. They seemed to get on in a funny kind of way; or at least to bounce off each other. Osborne and Balls were obsessed with point-scoring off each other. With Balls gone, Osborne may not feel the need to do that with whoever becomes his shadow. That will make the government a better one. We could do with less JCR in and around Parliament.
The Belfast Gay Cake maker bakery has been found NOT Guilty of discrimination
It was a stupid prosecution in the first place.
But, a useful precedent has been set.
Not any more.
So it seems. On that basis, it would seem that for a contractor to decline to support a political or religious cause they disagree with is unlawful discrimination. I hope they appeal.
The contractor doesn't have to "support" anything, they just need to do their job. Baking a cake isn't supporting a cause, it is baking a cake.
Should a contractor be allowed to say "no Jews, no blacks, no Irish" - I thought we'd moved on from that being acceptable decades ago. I see no need to return to allowing that.
But, they are being required to support a political cause they disagree with, or else pay damages. It cuts both ways. If someone wants a cake saying "oppose gay marriage" shouldn't a contractor be entitled to decline the order if he supports gay marriage?
This has nothing to do with no blacks etc.
I'm curious as to why the bakery accepted the commission in the first place, then backtracked. It suggests their 'strongly held religious beliefs' are not quite as clearly defined as they're now claiming.
I think Osborne is sincere in his wish to create a Northern Powerhouse.
I'd like to see more on precisely which industries are going to drive the revival, however.
There isn't going to be a revival - are all the cotton mills and spinning jennys suddenly going to rise up from the ground just because there's another layer of bureacracy placed over them? Osborne is simply spiking the guns of the movement toward an English Parliament, not to mention creating another Labour fiefdom.
@Sean Fear - I agree. There's a difference in my mind between a business refusing to offer to provide their services to someone *because* they're gay, and being asked to produce something that supports a cause they don't agree with.
Plenty of businesses have policies that they don't do X or Y. I can see a problem for a business if it were associated with supporting a cause, even indirectly, by a message that 'this cake supporting cause X was made by business Y"
Even if business Y didn't agree with cause X, an association with that cause could easily be implied and it would be reasonable to object to that.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Does an orthodox Jewish baker have the right to refuse to make a Christian cake because he doesn't like Christians, of course. What part of its their business and they are free to serve whomsoever they choose do people not understand?
But the law says you are WRONG! We do not live in a libertarian eutopia, we live in a country where profit making enterprises are governed by rules that protect consumers.
It may not be the situation you like, but it is the situation.
Laws can be changed, I just like to highlight the ridiculous situation where nasty little authoritarian bigots pose as somehow being liberal and tolerant.
But customer service doesn't mean you need to supply everything the customer demands.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
If the baker doesn't do custom cakes you're right. If they do, then discrimination is still discrimination. If they do make custom cakes then should they be allowed to decline a cake with a Star of David because they don't like Jews?
Does an orthodox Jewish baker have the right to refuse to make a Christian cake because he doesn't like Christians, of course. What part of its their business and they are free to serve whomsoever they choose do people not understand?
No they don't. We've had laws against such discrimination for decades, since it was deemed to be unacceptable to have signs saying along the lines of "no Jews, no blacks, no Irish". This is not a modern change, its a change that was made many decades ago that has been expanded to include gays.
I find the gay cake case tricky for two reasons. First, everyone involved in the case without exception seems to have been a complete berk. And secondly, it's such a trivial case.
It will give the DUP's fight for a freedom of conscience clause a boost. Simultaneously, it will give the pro-gay marriage lobby in Ireland a boost in advance of the referendum.
Comments
http://inagist.com/all/600582404286390272/
The other one on the radio this morning was the whole drink driving limit being threatening to be cut to half a mouthful of shady or so.
I'd like to see the stats on RTCs with people between the Scottish limit and our existing limit... one of the things I am hoping for with a Conservative Majority Government is not bringing in nonsense measures like that.
They're very rigorous, the judging exams.
Edited extra bit: I think he was an associate of Ken Livingstone. Be interesting to see if he supports a mayoral candidate next time.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/after-7-may-has-left-been-defeated-generation
There's lots of intriguing stuff in there, but this paragraph particularly struck me:
The working-class support on which Labour has relied is melting away in the north. In Scotland it is already gone. The SNP may not retain its current level of popularity for long. But when it proves unable to deliver on its promises, the opposition to it is more likely to be expressed in internal fissures and the formation of new movements (a process made easier by the proportional voting system for elections to Holyrood) than in any revival of Labour.
The metric should be listening to the PB Tories and JackW.
We said Ed was crap but would they listen.
Honestly, if JackW were to say "Andy Burnham will never be Prime Minister" that ought to do it.
It's like everything else - trying to emphasise a difference between the nation for no good reason.
An idea not based on facts which should go straight in the bin.
We said Ed was crap but would they listen.
Honestly, if JackW were to say "Andy Burnham will never be Prime Minister" that ought to do it.
The Tories never needed a break clause!!
"it was at odds with our beliefs and with what the Bible teaches". Since when does the bible offer advice about preparing colored icing?!
If you are offering a service, you serve. Keep religion to yourself and a Sunday morning.
Note the biggest switch block WAS in fact Lib Dem -> Labour.
Dave replenishing the lost Kippers with blue Liberals was the most important factor though I think.
And what you clearly have forgotten about is the quiet man still being here, and turning up the volume. Have a Youtube of that, and tell me it is not infinitely more embarrassing than a Stonehengeful of EdStones.
The key question is why the Labour MPs have been so stupid as to leave Brown and then Miliband in place? They seem to be incapable of knowing what a winning Leader looks like.
@M_Star_Online: Our #milifandom Ibiza world exclusive http://t.co/b0SmpNpFjY
"What the electorate appear to be saying is we like Ukip but not the leader."
We will also continue to reform our political system: make votes of more equal value through long overdue boundary reforms, reducing the number of MPs...
That leaves wriggle room on the exact number, but not on a reduction of some sort.
Maybe just trim a couple from Wales, and leave the rest alone?
As an Atheist I believe in peoples freedom FROM religion as well as freedom OF religion. In a profit making enterprise, the former should trump the latter IMHO.
Miliband wasn't cool enough for spectacles.
Considering the absolute derision that frequently gets heaped on Osbourne, that is quite a statement coming from someone with left-leanings. Nonetheless, I think you are right. He is greatly underrated as is (was?) Cameron
Should a contractor be allowed to say "no Jews, no blacks, no Irish" - I thought we'd moved on from that being acceptable decades ago. I see no need to return to allowing that.
They should be willing to supply identical cakes to any customer regardless of customer orientation. They should also have the right to reject any proposed design that they wish.
*The chap this site suggested many times that him winning most seats vs Ed was a "coin toss" ?
The analogy would be if someone were asked to bake a cake with the slogan "support mixed race marriage now.". IMHO, the baker should be entitled to refuse.
As to freedom from religion, I would fully support the right of an atheist businessman to decline an order from a religious group to produce material promoting that religion.
I am intolerant of intolerance, from the Christopher Hitchens school of thought.
Like i say in private people are free to practice whatever they want to believe, when it comes to profit making enterprises, religion/discrimination stops at the door.
*runs screaming from the room*
This has nothing to do with no blacks etc.
BTW Mr Eagles your post was incorrect - the bakery WAS found guilty of discrimination
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3087617/Belfast-bakery-discriminated-refusing-gay-cake-order-court-rules.html
"BELFAST, May 19 (Reuters) - A Northern Ireland bakery owned by devout Christians who refused to bake a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan was found guilty of discrimination in Belfast on Tuesday"
His trouble is he doesn't look or sound human. That's why he and Cameron make such a good pair.
I'd like to see more on precisely which industries are going to drive the revival, however.
It may not be the situation you like, but it is the situation.
Once you've created that moral licence for your actions you can justify doing or saying just about anything.
Or he is guilty of religious discrimination.
A baker that does custom cakes ought to be able to do both a cake saying "support gay marriage" and one saying "oppose gay marriage". All they're doing is baking the cake, they're not stamping their own approval saying "I agree with this personally" on either.
How a baker wants to express his views in his personal time is up to him, but in the cause of their work they are working.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32789750
Plenty of businesses have policies that they don't do X or Y. I can see a problem for a business if it were associated with supporting a cause, even indirectly, by a message that 'this cake supporting cause X was made by business Y"
Even if business Y didn't agree with cause X, an association with that cause could easily be implied and it would be reasonable to object to that.
It will give the DUP's fight for a freedom of conscience clause a boost. Simultaneously, it will give the pro-gay marriage lobby in Ireland a boost in advance of the referendum.
Miss C, Napoleon, I think.