So far, the behaviour of some of the SNP MPs has been rather childish.
I know they want to create a buzz and stir up Westminster, but they need to be careful not to overplay their hand by acting petulantly.
It will be interesting to see how the Speaker handles their (inevitably disruptive) antics in the Chamber.
What incentive do they have not to be petulant, childish, and disruptive?
Because the Speaker will take notice and reprimand them? Oh...
Then they might all shout with one Braveheart voice to ask for the Speaker to face a re-election.... That would be fun. Especially as Cameron has said he doesn't want the distraction. Maximum mischief....
Now THAT would be rather amusing. Only a couple of hours to wait.
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
People like you no doubt said much the same about the spare room subsidy, NHS reforms, Gove, 50% tax.......
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
What nonsence you lot speak. The SNP are quite right to bag the correct seats to sit as a third party block. The Libs would have allowed Skinner and co to get on with it or joined the Tories as they did in the last Parliament..
Also it shows that the SNP crew are ready and willing to turn up on time - another excellent sign.
So far, the behaviour of some of the SNP MPs has been rather childish.
I know they want to create a buzz and stir up Westminster, but they need to be careful not to overplay their hand by acting petulantly.
It will be interesting to see how the Speaker handles their (inevitably disruptive) antics in the Chamber.
What incentive do they have not to be petulant, childish, and disruptive?
I think there are sufficient sensible Scots who are 'soft SNP' who could be put off voting for them again if they don't box clever and, rather than standing up for Scotland, just embarass the country.
The "soft" SNP vote are the "No" voters who went for them. The central plank of the 2016 manifesto I think simply has to be Indy Ref 2 - they have a massive amount of political capital to use at the moment, and a vote for the SNP at Holyrood is a vote for "Out" pretty much (The Westminster vote wasn't).
This could cause some loss of support for them - where it goes though, I'm not sure.
If the SNP fail to use that political capital on another Indy Ref gamble, they could fall back rapidly. The best case scenario for the SNP is Dave blocking IndyRef 2, that could see them grow even stronger...
Very good. We were never a match for your untamed wit ...
We played Eton at cricket once. It was 40 overs a side. They made something like 280; we held on for a draw at 98-9 at the end. It was a great game and we were very proud not to have lost. The Eton boys were all superb gents and very gracious. Moral of the story? Really good at cricket and very well brought up, but not so good at geography.
93% !! Hahaha!
But your cricket feat trumps all of this. A great losing draw!
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
Indeed. That's why I tend to agree with the view that this is more trouble than its worth.
If it were easy or obvious, it would have been done already. Change is hard. Going against the consensus is hard. That doesn't mean it can't be done or shouldn't be done.
That's true as a general principle, but I remain to be convinced it is in this case, particularly as the significance of what is being altered bythe Tory proposals is not yet clear to me. If it is not really that significant, I think it possible it will be a huge headache for little gain.
What nonsence you lot speak. The SNP are quite right to bag the correct seats to sit as a third party block. The Libs would have allowed Skinner and co to get on with it or joined the Tories as they did in the last Parliament..
Also it shows that the SNP crew are ready and willing to turn up on time - another excellent sign.
Nah, it's all rather childish. I imagine this will last a while and then they'll all grow up a little. Their excitement is understandable, but if they are sitting around in the Commons all day waiting for things to get underway it means they will not be able to do a lot of other stuff.
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
People like you no doubt said much the same about the spare room subsidy, NHS reforms, Gove, 50% tax.......
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
"People like me".. What on earth do you mean by that?
I am a Conservative supporter, but not an uncritical one. I say on here what I think, as do most posters.
I am interested primarily in the government being successful, and I will commentate as to my view when I think that might be at risk. Sorry if you don't like it.
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
Indeed. That's why I tend to agree with the view that this is more trouble than its worth.
If it were easy or obvious, it would have been done already. Change is hard. Going against the consensus is hard. That doesn't mean it can't be done or shouldn't be done.
That's true as a general principle, but I remain to be convinced it is in this case, particularly as the significance of what is being altered bythe Tory proposals is not yet clear to me. If it is not really that significant, I think it possible it will be a huge headache for little gain.
I think that's the issue. The devil's in the detail, and we don't know the detail. Probably because the majority took the whole party be surprise.
What nonsence you lot speak. The SNP are quite right to bag the correct seats to sit as a third party block. The Libs would have allowed Skinner and co to get on with it or joined the Tories as they did in the last Parliament..
Also it shows that the SNP crew are ready and willing to turn up on time - another excellent sign.
Nah, it's all rather childish. I imagine this will last a while and then they'll all grow up a little. Their excitement is understandable, but if they are sitting around in the Commons all day waiting for things to get underway it means they will not be able to do a lot of other stuff.
Good luck to them. They're really going to wind surviving Labour MPs up, and deservedly so. Should be fun.
If it comes to a fight about where people sit then they could move en bloc to the Treasury bench. They would also been totally within their rights to do that if they can turn up in time. That is why Labour would be smart not to upset the NATS.
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
I really can't see what the people are complaining about. The fact the SNP have arrived early to take up their appropriate seats before silly games can begin should be something to be commended rather than criticised...
Creagh ... was educated at the Bishop Ullathorne Comprehensive School in Coventry and studied modern languages at Pembroke College, Oxford, completing an MA (Oxon),[4] and later European Studies at the London School of Economics (PhD).[5] She has been elected a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Linguists.
Creagh worked in Brussels for four years, first as an intern at the European Parliament and then for the European Youth Forum. She taught entrepreneurship at the Cranfield University School of Management
What in that CV equipped Mary Creagh to teach entrepreneurship at Cranfield? Doctrinally, she is surely bitterly hostile to entrepreneurship?
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
Of course they are. But the chamber does not actually open for business until 2.30 pm. If they want to play silly buggers they will have to do this day in and day out every day that Parliament sits for the next five years, meaning that they will be unable to do any other work. Or they can be grown-up and talk to the other parties about it. That's what will happen, but we'll have a bit longer of the fun and games first - no doubt accompanied by Tweeted photos and pithy comments in Doric, Lallans etc. It's all a bit tedious and predictable. But that's nationalism for you.
Pulpstar It will depend on the further powers devolved and whether the UK votes for Brexit in 2017, only if there is real dissatisfaction with 1 or 2 occurs will there be indyref two in the next 5 years. The SNP will also need another absolute majority at Holyrood, if unionist parties get their act together and Tories in Scotland in particular start voting tactically in 2016 on the constituency vote, ie Labour/LD for the constituency Tory on the regional list with no prospect of a Labour government to hold them back, that is not a given
The have 56 MPs. The Labour awkward squad have three or four. They can rotate who goes there each day. If the Labour whips help out the awkward squad then they can move to the Treasury bench. Numbers count for everything in the Chamber and now the NATS have them.
They are both entitled and right to assert their position.
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
Of course they are. But the chamber does not actually open for business until 2.30 pm. If they want to play silly buggers they will have to do this day in and day out every day that Parliament sits for the next five years, meaning that they will be unable to do any other work. Or they can be grown-up and talk to the other parties about it. That's what will happen, but we'll have a bit longer of the fun and games first - no doubt accompanied by Tweeted photos and pithy comments in Doric, Lallans etc. It's all a bit tedious and predictable. But that's nationalism for you.
Doesn't the Commons move to electronic iPads instead of paper from today... I would imagine that it may be more comfortable to seat in the Commons working from there instead of your typical shared junior MP office....
All those years at Eton Charles and I, a humble grammar school boy, did better than you. What a waste of a good education ;-)
They trained Etonians to rule the colonies...not to actually know where they were on a map!
Very good. We were never a match for your untamed wit ...
We played Eton at cricket once. It was 40 overs a side. They made something like 280; we held on for a draw at 98-9 at the end. It was a great game and we were very proud not to have lost. The Eton boys were all superb gents and very gracious. Moral of the story? Really good at cricket and very well brought up, but not so good at geography.
You've got to remember that most of the borders are just arbitrary straight lines on the map segmenting two bits of pink
@HYUFD No more "tactical" voting from any Scots Tories !
Particularly in places like Stirling and East Renfrewshire. With SLAB in collapse, these are the long term targets they should be aiming for. 330 seats in E&W won't last forever.
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
People like you no doubt said much the same about the spare room subsidy, NHS reforms, Gove, 50% tax.......
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
"People like me".. What on earth do you mean by that?
I am a Conservative supporter, but not an uncritical one. I say on here what I think, as do most posters.
I am interested primarily in the government being successful, and I will commentate as to my view when I think that might be at risk. Sorry if you don't like it.
I've listened to Tories on here for the last five years pontificating endlessly on all the mistakes the govt made. And yet here we are - they knew what they were doing after all, without following your and other's advice. At least have the courtesy to wait and see what is being proposed. Just because a few silly journalists predict the end of the world doesn't mean it will happen . You'll be quoting polls next to support your panic. Chill.
@PippaCrerar: Beast of Bolsover Dennis Skinner on SNP taking "his" seat in HoC: “I was there before them, and I’ll be there when they’re gone.” @Torcuil
@PippaCrerar: Beast of Bolsover Dennis Skinner on SNP taking "his" seat in HoC: “I was there before them, and I’ll be there when they’re gone.” @Torcuil
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
Of course they are. But the chamber does not actually open for business until 2.30 pm. If they want to play silly buggers they will have to do this day in and day out every day that Parliament sits for the next five years, meaning that they will be unable to do any other work. Or they can be grown-up and talk to the other parties about it. That's what will happen, but we'll have a bit longer of the fun and games first - no doubt accompanied by Tweeted photos and pithy comments in Doric, Lallans etc. It's all a bit tedious and predictable. But that's nationalism for you.
You surely mean that is democracy for you , are they supposed to be some kind of second class MP's that they should wait till the English ones choose their seats and then take what is left. Unusual to ever hear of any MP being keen to be in the chamber , usually have to be whipped out of the bars. Sounds like a breath of fresh air to me. I am happy that Scotland's representatives are keen to get started.
Pulpstar It will depend on the further powers devolved and whether the UK votes for Brexit in 2017, only if there is real dissatisfaction with 1 or 2 occurs will there be indyref two in the next 5 years. The SNP will also need another absolute majority at Holyrood, if unionist parties get their act together and Tories in Scotland in particular start voting tactically in 2016 on the constituency vote, ie Labour/LD for the constituency Tory on the regional list with no prospect of a Labour government to hold them back, that is not a given
LOL, you expect the pygmy parties to actually be able to work together and hav ethe intelligence to do tactical voting , LOL.
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
People like you no doubt said much the same about the spare room subsidy, NHS reforms, Gove, 50% tax.......
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
"People like me".. What on earth do you mean by that?
I am a Conservative supporter, but not an uncritical one. I say on here what I think, as do most posters.
I am interested primarily in the government being successful, and I will commentate as to my view when I think that might be at risk. Sorry if you don't like it.
I've listened to Tories on here for the last five years pontificating endlessly on all the mistakes the govt made. And yet here we are - they knew what they were doing after all, without following your and other's advice. At least have the courtesy to wait and see what is being proposed. Just because a few silly journalists predict the end of the world doesn't mean it will happen . You'll be quoting polls next to support your panic. Chill.
Just because the Conservatives unexpectedly achieved a majority doesn't mean the government of the last five years was without its mistakes. The key is to understand what has achieved because of specific actions taken, and what in spite of them.
For example, I still think the Conservative party leadership mishandled its own membership and the rise of UKIP, where they woke up far too late to the threat. That didn't cost it a majority on the day but complacency would be entirely the wrong conclusion to draw from it.
@PippaCrerar: Beast of Bolsover Dennis Skinner on SNP taking "his" seat in HoC: “I was there before them, and I’ll be there when they’re gone.” @Torcuil
Anyone got the feeling Skinner will go on as an MP until he pops it?
@PippaCrerar: Beast of Bolsover Dennis Skinner on SNP taking "his" seat in HoC: “I was there before them, and I’ll be there when they’re gone.” @Torcuil
Anyone got the feeling Skinner will go on as an MP until he pops it?
@PippaCrerar: Beast of Bolsover Dennis Skinner on SNP taking "his" seat in HoC: “I was there before them, and I’ll be there when they’re gone.” @Torcuil
Anyone got the feeling Skinner will go on as an MP until he pops it?
"Waco police said the shooting happened shortly after midday when rival gangs got into a fight, apparently over parking space near the restaurant. Up to five gangs were involved. Police spokesman Sgt W Patrick Swanton said the fight started with punches and then escalated to chains, clubs, knives and finally firearms."
And EdM started off as someone who was clearly put in place by the unions. If Burnham receives hundreds of thousands of votes from the public, then the narrative begins in a very different way.
He's not my choice as leader, by a long chalk; but if he wins after a debate involving all parts of the Labour party and on the back of hundreds of thousands of individual votes he will carry an authority that EdM never had. Of course, he will then have five years of Stafford thrown at him. Presumably he knows that and believes he can live with it.
Agreed but If you are going to do it you need as much bang for your buck as possible so you would all vote for tristam......
Double bunce on that one with a useless leader that equally pisses off Len
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
Of course they are. But the chamber does not actually open for business until 2.30 pm. If they want to play silly buggers they will have to do this day in and day out every day that Parliament sits for the next five years, meaning that they will be unable to do any other work. Or they can be grown-up and talk to the other parties about it. That's what will happen, but we'll have a bit longer of the fun and games first - no doubt accompanied by Tweeted photos and pithy comments in Doric, Lallans etc. It's all a bit tedious and predictable. But that's nationalism for you.
You surely mean that is democracy for you , are they supposed to be some kind of second class MP's that they should wait till the English ones choose their seats and then take what is left. Unusual to ever hear of any MP being keen to be in the chamber , usually have to be whipped out of the bars. Sounds like a breath of fresh air to me. I am happy that Scotland's representatives are keen to get started.
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
Of course they are. But the chamber does not actually open for business until 2.30 pm. If they want to play silly buggers they will have to do this day in and day out every day that Parliament sits for the next five years, meaning that they will be unable to do any other work. Or they can be grown-up and talk to the other parties about it. That's what will happen, but we'll have a bit longer of the fun and games first - no doubt accompanied by Tweeted photos and pithy comments in Doric, Lallans etc. It's all a bit tedious and predictable. But that's nationalism for you.
You surely mean that is democracy for you , are they supposed to be some kind of second class MP's that they should wait till the English ones choose their seats and then take what is left. Unusual to ever hear of any MP being keen to be in the chamber , usually have to be whipped out of the bars. Sounds like a breath of fresh air to me. I am happy that Scotland's representatives are keen to get started.
They are British MPs, they all are.
So why are the "British MP's" whinging about SNP being in particular seats.
The have 56 MPs. The Labour awkward squad have three or four. They can rotate who goes there each day. If the Labour whips help out the awkward squad then they can move to the Treasury bench. Numbers count for everything in the Chamber and now the NATS have them.
They are both entitled and right to assert their position.
Fighting as to whom gets the Titanic deckchair that's not in the shade of the iceberg .
The government needs to win the PR war on Human Rights, something that the Conservative Party can often be very slow on. It needs to make it not about 'abolishing' rights (unpopular) but enshrining and strengthening British rights and arbitration of them with our judges and laws passed by our parliament sovereign (popular)
So far, I don't detect much effort to do this - in fact, the Tories are talking it up by emphasising the manifesto pledge to abolish the HRA - and, if left too late, the critics branding will stick.
People like you no doubt said much the same about the spare room subsidy, NHS reforms, Gove, 50% tax.......
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
"People like me".. What on earth do you mean by that?
I am a Conservative supporter, but not an uncritical one. I say on here what I think, as do most posters.
I am interested primarily in the government being successful, and I will commentate as to my view when I think that might be at risk. Sorry if you don't like it.
I've listened to Tories on here for the last five years pontificating endlessly on all the mistakes the govt made. And yet here we are - they knew what they were doing after all, without following your and other's advice. At least have the courtesy to wait and see what is being proposed. Just because a few silly journalists predict the end of the world doesn't mean it will happen . You'll be quoting polls next to support your panic. Chill.
Perhaps you should take some of your own advice. It's not for you to tell anyone else here what they should and shouldn't post.
Comments
Why don't you let the newly elected govt with an increased majority have a go before you put the boot in? they kinda have the mandate.
What nonsence you lot speak. The SNP are quite right to bag the correct seats to sit as a third party block. The Libs would have allowed Skinner and co to get on with it or joined the Tories as they did in the last Parliament..
Also it shows that the SNP crew are ready and willing to turn up on time - another excellent sign.
This could cause some loss of support for them - where it goes though, I'm not sure.
If the SNP fail to use that political capital on another Indy Ref gamble, they could fall back rapidly. The best case scenario for the SNP is Dave blocking IndyRef 2, that could see them grow even stronger...
Very good. We were never a match for your untamed wit ...
We played Eton at cricket once. It was 40 overs a side. They made something like 280; we held on for a draw at 98-9 at the end. It was a great game and we were very proud not to have lost. The Eton boys were all superb gents and very gracious. Moral of the story? Really good at cricket and very well brought up, but not so good at geography.
93%
But your cricket feat trumps all of this. A great losing draw!
Huw Irranca-Davies, who has announced he is leaving the shadow frontbench, told Radio Wales his party needed to "consistently re-invigorate" itself.
He said the party was facing a "huge challenge" at next year's assembly elections, and the Welsh government needed to deliver on its ambitions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-32772251
Salmond was generally acknowledged as a master of procdure and one of the few MPs who knew the standing orders backwards forwards.
Look up the amount of publicity he generated in the late 80 and early 90s by smart use or smart breaking of the rules.
I am a Conservative supporter, but not an uncritical one. I say on here what I think, as do most posters.
I am interested primarily in the government being successful, and I will commentate as to my view when I think that might be at risk. Sorry if you don't like it.
No it's not. For my sins I once worked in the House and sat as a civil servant in the chamber itself. The position you take is very important. Asserting your location as the third party is vital and the NATS are perfectly within their rights (and the rulebook) to do exactly that.
I await with interest to see what that is.
If it comes to a fight about where people sit then they could move en bloc to the Treasury bench. They would also been totally within their rights to do that if they can turn up in time. That is why Labour would be smart not to upset the NATS.
Creagh ... was educated at the Bishop Ullathorne Comprehensive School in Coventry and studied modern languages at Pembroke College, Oxford, completing an MA (Oxon),[4] and later European Studies at the London School of Economics (PhD).[5] She has been elected a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Linguists.
Creagh worked in Brussels for four years, first as an intern at the European Parliament and then for the European Youth Forum. She taught entrepreneurship at the Cranfield University School of Management
What in that CV equipped Mary Creagh to teach entrepreneurship at Cranfield? Doctrinally, she is surely bitterly hostile to entrepreneurship?
The have 56 MPs. The Labour awkward squad have three or four. They can rotate who goes there each day. If the Labour whips help out the awkward squad then they can move to the Treasury bench. Numbers count for everything in the Chamber and now the NATS have them.
They are both entitled and right to assert their position.
'I think that's the issue. The devil's in the detail, and we don't know the detail. Probably because the majority took the whole party be surprise'
I would have thought one of the strongest arguments was the UK uses qualified experienced judges which is not always the case with the ECHR.
Australia & Canada to name two countries seem to manage their justice systems without the need for the ECHR..
Particularly in places like Stirling and East Renfrewshire. With SLAB in collapse, these are the long term targets they should be aiming for. 330 seats in E&W won't last forever.
'I really can't see what the people are complaining about.'
What's the problem,has Skinner lost his favourite seat ?
PS are you trying to rival Scott for Navet of the day
For example, I still think the Conservative party leadership mishandled its own membership and the rise of UKIP, where they woke up far too late to the threat. That didn't cost it a majority on the day but complacency would be entirely the wrong conclusion to draw from it.
Certainly not that hard - a capital city quiz almost by definition can never be that difficult.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32776280
"Waco police said the shooting happened shortly after midday when rival gangs got into a fight, apparently over parking space near the restaurant. Up to five gangs were involved.
Police spokesman Sgt W Patrick Swanton said the fight started with punches and then escalated to chains, clubs, knives and finally firearms."
And EdM started off as someone who was clearly put in place by the unions. If Burnham receives hundreds of thousands of votes from the public, then the narrative begins in a very different way.
He's not my choice as leader, by a long chalk; but if he wins after a debate involving all parts of the Labour party and on the back of hundreds of thousands of individual votes he will carry an authority that EdM never had. Of course, he will then have five years of Stafford thrown at him. Presumably he knows that and believes he can live with it.
Agreed but If you are going to do it you need as much bang for your buck as possible so you would all vote for tristam......
Double bunce on that one with a useless leader that equally pisses off Len
Hohohoh
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2015/05/labour-must-understand-that-unite-is-its-enemy/