I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Good lord... Suzanne Evans is v nice but as a replacement for Farage? Ludicrous
Genuine question. Must people interested in politics, ie people that post on here, are on twitter and will be following political news. Why do you post them on here as if it's some kind of scoop or a service you are providing?
I am not on Twitter. I have no interest in the sort of vacuous comments that are normally expressed in 140 characters or less.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Agreed-as someone said earlier-Farage is now a busted flush and you need a different sort of leader to push the OUT agenda in a referendum.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Agreed-as someone said earlier-Farage is now a busted flush and you need a different sort of leader to push the OUT agenda in a referendum.
No one will believe a word from Sweaty Nige, the slippery snake.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
@isam UKIP have to prove that they can survive without Farage.
Good lord... Suzanne Evans is v nice but as a replacement for Farage? Ludicrous
Genuine question. Must people interested in politics, ie people that post on here, are on twitter and will be following political news. Why do you post them on here as if it's some kind of scoop or a service you are providing?
I am not on Twitter. I have no interest in the sort of vacuous comments that are normally expressed in 140 characters or less.
I on the other hand am occasionally interested, but am also not on twitter so I do find it a service when people link them, as I am interested, but not so interested that I will bother to look for them myself/
Good lord... Suzanne Evans is v nice but as a replacement for Farage? Ludicrous
Genuine question. Must people interested in politics, ie people that post on here, are on twitter and will be following political news. Why do you post them on here as if it's some kind of scoop or a service you are providing?
I am not on Twitter. I have no interest in the sort of vacuous comments that are normally expressed in 140 characters or less.
Nicely expressed in 96 characters-you should Tweet more often
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
@isam UKIP have to prove that they can survive without Farage.
Sooner rather than later. He looks as if he's about to keel over.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Nope. I am afraid you are wrong Sam. Having been in the Eurosceptic movement since before UKIP even existed and knowing how many decent people have been driven out of the party by his ego I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And no, UKIP would not have done substantially worse had someone else been in charge over the last 18 months. He undoubtedly has been an asset and could have remained as such if he had been willing to let someone else take on the role of leader and had returned to where his real skill lies as an orator and figurehead.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
Why are politicians still saying that the EU is the largest single market in the world on QT? China and NAFTA are a bigger market that the EU.
China's GDP is much smaller than the EU's (about $9bn vs $17bn, 2013 figures). The NAFTA countries combined are bigger but aren't really a single market.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
@isam UKIP have to prove that they can survive without Farage.
Why?
Totally crazy. Just had our best result ever at a GE. This whole nonsense is so short sighted.
The two people who seen to have been the problem have gone, and maybe Farage will now be a different type of leader. But the big risk is outing him, losing the ground we have made. Then thinking. 'Why exactly did we do that?'
For me the best evidence he should status the squealing for him to go from Tories... I might start asking Chelsea if they'll sack Mourinho
Why are politicians still saying that the EU is the largest single market in the world on QT? China and NAFTA are a bigger market that the EU.
China's GDP is much smaller than the EU's (about $9bn vs $17bn, 2013 figures). The NAFTA countries combined are bigger but aren't really a single market.
According to the IMF China is the largest economy in the world of about the same size as the whole of the EU, this year it would be larger.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
@isam UKIP have to prove that they can survive without Farage.
Sooner rather than later. He looks as if he's about to keel over.
Amazing how people cone back from the dead as if they've never been away though isn't it?
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Sooner rather than later. He looks as if he's about to keel over.
Well that's the undiscussed part of this, surely? His back trouble and assorted other ailments.
Is that a euphemism for Charlie Kennedy type "ailments"
As I said below Mrs RT is convinced he is not a healthy man.
I don't agree with him on all points but i like the maverick in him and he has shaken up the comfortable elite and so for that alone I wish him good health.
Why are politicians still saying that the EU is the largest single market in the world on QT? China and NAFTA are a bigger market that the EU.
China's GDP is much smaller than the EU's (about $9bn vs $17bn, 2013 figures). The NAFTA countries combined are bigger but aren't really a single market.
The EU 2013 GDP excluding the UK is about $14.7 trillion. The US 2013 GDP was $16.7 trillion.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Nope. I am afraid you are wrong Sam. Having been in the Eurosceptic movement since before UKIP even existed and knowing how many decent people have been driven out of the party by his ego I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And no, UKIP would not have done substantially worse had someone else been in charge over the last 18 months. He undoubtedly has been an asset and could have remained as such if he had been willing to let someone else take on the role of leader and had returned to where his real skill lies as an orator and figurehead.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
It's as if people just don't think this through
You count all the people you think Farage puts off and forget all those who only know anything about the eu because of him
I'm sorry but most people don't give a toss about it to be honest, and it's only through Ukip under Farage that people are starting to think about it.
I was merely answering Speedy's question. He seemed to think it was some sort of conspiracy or untruth to say the EU is the world's biggest single market. It's not, it's a straightforward statement of fact based on the most authoritative estimates.
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Good lord... Suzanne Evans is v nice but as a replacement for Farage? Ludicrous
Genuine question. Must people interested in politics, ie people that post on here, are on twitter and will be following political news. Why do you post them on here as if it's some kind of scoop or a service you are providing?
I'm not on twitter. I find @Scott_P's posts helpful
Waste of space IMO
So you've said. Personally I reckon if he enjoys and isn't harming anyone he should be free to go about his business without people carping from the sidelines
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Carswell is a good bet to get more ex-LD voters and intrude into the Tory soft right also to reduce the anti-UKIP tactical vote, but a bad one it you target Labour votes.
Farage is more comfortable as a street fighter against Labour right now, but it's a big risk since the Tories have the votes in seats that UKIP can win, and Labour voters prefer a Tory MP than a UKIP MP at present because Farage is to rough.
Good lord... Suzanne Evans is v nice but as a replacement for Farage? Ludicrous
Genuine question. Must people interested in politics, ie people that post on here, are on twitter and will be following political news. Why do you post them on here as if it's some kind of scoop or a service you are providing?
I'm not on twitter. I find @Scott_P's posts helpful
Waste of space IMO
So you've said. Personally I reckon if he enjoys and isn't harming anyone he should be free to go about his business without people carping from the sidelines
Jesus I only asked why he bothered. I didn't realise I was doing the online equivalent of snatching a disabled kids ice cream
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Nope. I am afraid you are wrong Sam. Having been in the Eurosceptic movement since before UKIP even existed and knowing how many decent people have been driven out of the party by his ego I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And no, UKIP would not have done substantially worse had someone else been in charge over the last 18 months. He undoubtedly has been an asset and could have remained as such if he had been willing to let someone else take on the role of leader and had returned to where his real skill lies as an orator and figurehead.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
It's as if people just don't think this through
You count all the people you think Farage puts off and forget all those who only know anything about the eu because of him
I'm sorry but most people don't give a toss about it to be honest, and it's only through Ukip under Farage that people are starting to think about it.
Hmm so that would be why under Farage we now have the highest number of people in favour of EU membership since 1991.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it?
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Nope. I am afraid you are wrong Sam. Having been in the Eurosceptic movement since before UKIP even existed and knowing how many decent people have been driven out of the party by his ego I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And no, UKIP would not have done substantially worse had someone else been in charge over the last 18 months. He undoubtedly has been an asset and could have remained as such if he had been willing to let someone else take on the role of leader and had returned to where his real skill lies as an orator and figurehead.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
It's as if people just don't think this through
You count all the people you think Farage puts off and forget all those who only know anything about the eu because of him
I'm sorry but most people don't give a toss about it to be honest, and it's only through Ukip under Farage that people are starting to think about it.
Hmm so that would be why under Farage we now have the highest number of people in favour of EU membership since 1991.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it?
Well we've got a referendum and 4m people are voting for a party set up to leave the EU
But you trust the opinion polls, they're never wrong!
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Agreed - you could hardly think of anyone less suited to SOT Central than Tristram. Mark Fisher was way better suited. Going back you had people like John Forrester, Joan Walley and Jack Ashley who were far more representative of the areas they represented than the current shower.
I am interested, but not so interested that I will bother to look for them myself/
Technically you have a "vellity" for tweets. One of my favourite words in archaic English: you have a desire for something but not a strong enough desire to undertake any positive action to achieve fulfilment.
I was merely answering Speedy's question. He seemed to think it was some sort of conspiracy or untruth to say the EU is the world's biggest single market. It's not, it's a straightforward statement of fact based on the most authoritative estimates.
And I have facts that disprove your facts. It is an untruth that the EU is the largest market in the world, even single countries have surpassed it in size, but that happens when the EU growth rate is usually 1% or 0% forever. The EU will continue to shrink in importance in the world economy in the foreseeable future, it is already performing worse than the USSR in it's dying years.
Richard Tyndall "Hmm so that would be why under Farage we now have the highest number of people in favour of EU membership since 1991.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it? "
For all the noise that they make and the faux outrage by the Guardian/BBC. UKIP is possibly one of the least successful anti EU political parties in Europe.
Italy France Austria Greece Spain, and very soon Germany, amongst many others, all have more successful/popular anti EU parties than the UK does.
I have no idea if the rules allow it but if they do then there should be a coup against Farage and he should be replaced as UKIP leader. Even if they lose one or two of their financial backers there will be more along to support them and if they can prove themselves and make a complete break from the Farage era then they may well win back some of the supporters and senior members who were driven out by Farage.
If they don't then they will drift and the referendum will be lost because the Out side will be fatally fractured.
Jesus Richard if you'd had your way they would still be on about 4% talkiing to each other about eu technicalities. You should be grateful to Farage for getting your referendum, it wouldn't be happening without him
Nope. I am afraid you are wrong Sam. Having been in the Eurosceptic movement since before UKIP even existed and knowing how many decent people have been driven out of the party by his ego I am no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. And no, UKIP would not have done substantially worse had someone else been in charge over the last 18 months. He undoubtedly has been an asset and could have remained as such if he had been willing to let someone else take on the role of leader and had returned to where his real skill lies as an orator and figurehead.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
It's as if people just don't think this through
You count all the people you think Farage puts off and forget all those who only know anything about the eu because of him
I'm sorry but most people don't give a toss about it to be honest, and it's only through Ukip under Farage that people are starting to think about it.
Hmm so that would be why under Farage we now have the highest number of people in favour of EU membership since 1991.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it?
Well we've got a referendum and 4m people are voting for a party set up to leave the EU
But you trust the opinion polls, they're never wrong!
4 million is 9% of the registered vote.That leaves you needing another 42% to win a referendum.
I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority.
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Agreed - you could hardly think of anyone less suited to SOT Central than Tristram. Mark Fisher was way better suited. Going back you had people like John Forrester, Joan Walley and Jack Ashley who were far more representative of the areas they represented than the current shower.
'4 million is 9% of the registered vote.That leaves you needing another 42% to win a referendum.
I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority.'
Come off it Richard you don't need to start playing silly buggers w numbers over this. We all know the referendum isn't going to have a 100% turn out.
Getting silly now, and we aren't going to agree. All I am saying to all Ukip supporters is careful what you wish for
One of the strongest reasons to vote In will be to give Farage a bit of a kicking.
It is why referenda are poor way to make decisions.
I predict the in/out referendum debate is going to be terrible.
On one side, you'll have people saying, if we leave the EU we'll become economic lepers (which was their argument for joining the Euro) versus people who say, if you vote to remain in the EU, you're giving 4 billion people the right to move to the UK and give you AIDS.
"I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority. "
Agreed-which is why you are so right that Farage needs to go and UKIP need to move on
Everything now needs to be built around winning the argument and GOTV for 2017-this isn't Scotland-we really do only have one vote in this generation.
I was merely answering Speedy's question. He seemed to think it was some sort of conspiracy or untruth to say the EU is the world's biggest single market. It's not, it's a straightforward statement of fact based on the most authoritative estimates.
The European Union is not a single market, but merely professes to be. What is the largest component of European GDP? Services. Yet there is still no single market in services.
Daniel Finkelstein had a very good argument earlier this week.
These voters aren't shy Tories. They are people at work, busy living their lives, with no interest in politics, who won't answer a phone pollster or register for an online panel.
Come election time they look around. If they reckon the government (of whatever party) is doing a good job they vote to re-elect them. If they're not, then they vote for the other lot (provided they are credible. If the government and the opposition are both a bit shit they stay at home.
It really is that simple
We all remember how many MP's backers David Davis had at the start of the last Conservative Leadership campaign....
One of the strongest reasons to vote In will be to give Farage a bit of a kicking.
It is why referenda are poor way to make decisions.
I predict the in/out referendum debate is going to be terrible.
On one side, you'll have people saying, if we leave the EU we'll become economic lepers (which was their argument for joining the Euro) versus people who say, if you vote to remain in the EU, you're giving 4 billion people the right to move to the UK and give you AIDS.
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Carswell is a good bet to get more ex-LD voters and intrude into the Tory soft right also to reduce the anti-UKIP tactical vote, but a bad one it you target Labour votes.
Farage is more comfortable as a street fighter against Labour right now, but it's a big risk since the Tories have the votes in seats that UKIP can win, and Labour voters prefer a Tory MP than a UKIP MP at present because Farage is to rough.
That's the dilemma for UKIP that you put well. Once we get past the end of September and the global economy turns down, we'll get polarisation in politics between left and right across the developed world. So often a theme in troubled times throughout history has been a battle between government oppressing the people, and the people rising up in protest. One thing which will be fascinating is the rise in civil unrest that I can forsee. Never has the battle for civil liberties been more important - UKIP will do well in my opinion if they position themselves at the vanguard of the opposition against government oppression of all kinds, be it taxation by stealth or repression of basic rights we take for granted today. Carswell would be ideal to lead the party in the coming climate in my opinion.
Then there will be the real generational divide between young and old. One of the many reasons why I didn't vote Tory last Thursday was the Pensioner Bond vote bribe. It obviously worked, but for me it remains one of the very worst policies carving up the interests of different sections of the population - so much for 'we're all in it together'. And yet Labour didn't have the courage to criticise it, nor anybody else for that matter.
One of the strongest reasons to vote In will be to give Farage a bit of a kicking.
It is why referenda are poor way to make decisions.
I predict the in/out referendum debate is going to be terrible.
On one side, you'll have people saying, if we leave the EU we'll become economic lepers (which was their argument for joining the Euro) versus people who say, if you vote to remain in the EU, you're giving 4 billion people the right to move to the UK and give you AIDS.
Mrs Thatcher was not right about much, but she was stronly opposed to government by referendum. Perhaps it was as a result of her experience of cheerleading the "In" campaign in 76.
That referendum did not settle the issue either. In 1983 the Labour party ran on an "Out" manifesto.
Is this the future of politics in the UK? We elect pisspoor politicians like Tristam Hunt who we do not trust, then govern by endless neverendums?
Well it's the present of the UK since 1990. It seems the majority of society approves of pisspoor politicians because they can do little harm to them, even if they tried to attack the public interest they wouldn't do much, unlike competent politicians who if they come to power they might be very effective against their own constituents.
Politicians are like vampires to voters. Whom you would most prefer facing, Christopher Lee or Leslie Nielsen ?
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Agreed - you could hardly think of anyone less suited to SOT Central than Tristram. Mark Fisher was way better suited. Going back you had people like John Forrester, Joan Walley and Jack Ashley who were far more representative of the areas they represented than the current shower.
Mark being a very nice man and an OE, of course
I met Mark on several occasions, and he had a much deeper appreciation of Mr Average in SOT than Tristram will ever have, his OE background not withstanding.
One of the strongest reasons to vote In will be to give Farage a bit of a kicking.
It is why referenda are poor way to make decisions.
I predict the in/out referendum debate is going to be terrible.
On one side, you'll have people saying, if we leave the EU we'll become economic lepers (which was their argument for joining the Euro) versus people who say, if you vote to remain in the EU, you're giving 4 billion people the right to move to the UK and give you AIDS.
Mrs Thatcher was not right about much, but she was stronly opposed to government by referendum. Perhaps it was as a result of her experience of cheerleading the "In" campaign in 76.
That referendum did not settle the issue either. In 1983 the Labour party ran on an "Out" manifesto.
Whilst I want a referendum on the EU, I do worry about any referendum as it could be used to give a politician a kicking, without looking at the merits of the argument, with the AV referendum, I had friends, voting against AV, just to give Nick Clegg a kicking.
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Agreed - you could hardly think of anyone less suited to SOT Central than Tristram. Mark Fisher was way better suited. Going back you had people like John Forrester, Joan Walley and Jack Ashley who were far more representative of the areas they represented than the current shower.
No wonder people don't vote in Stoke Central. First they had an old Etonian as MP for 27 years and now Tristram Hunt.
'4 million is 9% of the registered vote.That leaves you needing another 42% to win a referendum.
I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority.'
Come off it Richard you don't need to start playing silly buggers w numbers over this. We all know the referendum isn't going to have a 100% turn out.
Getting silly now, and we aren't going to agree. All I am saying to all Ukip supporters is careful what you wish for
So don't go on 100% turnout. Go on what we got at this election which is 66.1% turnout. That is just over 28 million people of whom 4 million voted for UKIP. So tell me how a marmite politician like Farage is going to get those other 10 million votes we need? And of course the turnout for the referendum will be considerably higher than the GE so I am being kind to you.
Farage actively drives people away from Euroscepticism. If he is running UKIP in 2017 we do not have a cat in hells chance of winning the referendum.
'4 million is 9% of the registered vote.That leaves you needing another 42% to win a referendum.
I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority.'
Come off it Richard you don't need to start playing silly buggers w numbers over this. We all know the referendum isn't going to have a 100% turn out.
Getting silly now, and we aren't going to agree. All I am saying to all Ukip supporters is careful what you wish for
So don't go on 100% turnout. Go on what we got at this election which is 66.1% turnout. That is just over 28 million people of whom 4 million voted for UKIP. So tell me how a marmite politician like Farage is going to get those other 10 million votes we need? And of course the turnout for the referendum will be considerably higher than the GE so I am being kind to you.
Farage actively drives people away from Euroscepticism. If he is running UKIP in 2017 we do not have a cat in hells chance of winning the referendum.
He has long ago said he wouldn't be fronting the out campaign as he recognised he divides opinion. Honestly let it go he's not all bad
You're not drinking special brew on an oil rig or something are you?
25% of Labour MPs backing Burnham? Insane doesn't even begin to describe them.
Labour's only hope is that a long leadership contest is enough to enable others to grow over the months, and build up their own base. In 2010, David Miliband started off as the big favourite, but as we know - lost the leadership election.
Whilst I want a referendum on the EU, I do worry about any referendum as it could be used to give a politician a kicking, without looking at the merits of the argument, with the AV referendum, I had friends, voting against AV, just to give Nick Clegg a kicking.
Hunt 9 - Very composed Farage N 7 - Handled a tricky QT well Mentoes 7 - Did fine. May 5 - Better at the guitar than being a politico Hunt 2 - Oh Dear.
Whilst I want a referendum on the EU, I do worry about any referendum as it could be used to give a politician a kicking, without looking at the merits of the argument, with the AV referendum, I had friends, voting against AV, just to give Nick Clegg a kicking.
Its been like deja vu in the aftermath of the 1992 GE this last week. That whole period from April 10th until Black Wednesday - all 5 months a bit of it has been totally forgotten. Well I think history will repeat but it wasn't just Black Wednesday back in 1992 - you had the coal mine closures, significant tax rises post the GE and a general incompotence that added to the narrative that the government had lost its way.
Until we get to the end of September, its a honeymoon, but it will soon feel very different when autumn turns to winter this year.
Interesting move to appoint Salmond as SNP spokesman on foreign affairs. Look forward to him ripping shreds out of Hammond. Foreign affairs debates in the HoC have become a must watch event - not before time!
I don't know how many pb-ers have been to Palmyra, in Syria, but I have. It is one of the haunting and extraordinary survivals of human culture, a Persio-Roman city in the desert, complete with glorious pillared roads, and an entire Temple of Baal. I've been around the world and seen many great sites, but Palmyra is one of the loftiest.
And now ISIS are close to devouring it, and they will, inevitably, destroy it. That's like bombing Oxford into dust, or levelling Angkor Wat.
ISIS is a snake, close to the heart of what it means to be human. We need to get our fucking shit together, and kill them.
Dead right. They and their poisonous ideology need to be wiped out. Truly evil. Utter defeat of them is needed. Then we can worry about education of the women. Christianity is about to be wiped out in its homeland and if it is there is no hope for any sort of moderate Islam in the Middle East or anywhere else. The persecuted Christians of Iraq and Syria and Egypt should be welcomed here with open arms if we cannot protect them in their homes.
One of my regrets is that I did not go to Syria a few years ago. I was set to but then work intervened. Even if some form of peace comes it will never again be the place it was.
Daniel Finkelstein had a very good argument earlier this week.
These voters aren't shy Tories. They are people at work, busy living their lives, with no interest in politics, who won't answer a phone pollster or register for an online panel.
Come election time they look around. If they reckon the government (of whatever party) is doing a good job they vote to re-elect them. If they're not, then they vote for the other lot (provided they are credible. If the government and the opposition are both a bit shit they stay at home.
It really is that simple
Nailed it in one.
If you are hard at work you don't waste your day on a political blogging website
Although if your wife is watching some utter drivel on the TV you may log-on in the evening
"If I can't control all the Short money, you're not having any of it. Ner ner nee ner nah".
Sorry it's hard for us kippers to hear you up here on this moral high ground
Until yesterday, UKIP were gagging for that cash. But, if you'd rather the party was bankrolled solely by rich businessmen such as the former pornography publisher Richard Desmond, that's your lookout.
The lessons the "Out" campaign should learn from the Scottish referendum: (1) Fear works to a considerable extent. The "Out" campaign must have a convincing and positive economic case. The "Yes" campaign in Scotland had a few very rich but utterly utopian nationalist businessmen who had no credible economic message at all. (2) Do not underestimate the impact of arguments based on sovereignty and identity, which very nearly won in Scotland. "Who should govern Britain?". "Is it your destiny that your fundamental status will be as a citizen of the European Union, rather than as a British citizen?" Whereas very many Scots had a profound emotional attachment to the Union, virtually no one other than the most demented federalists has any emotional attachment to government by Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg.
Stoke-on-Trent tells you everything you need to know about Labour's problems with the WWC. It's an incredibly 'white' city still when compared with other cities across the rest of the country. The only ethnic minority community of note is in Shelton just outside Hanley. Their majority across the 3 Stoke constituencies was 13,000. They had majorities higher than that in North and Central both alone in 1992 and 1997. South has always had a Tory minority based around Trentham, and in a good Tory year would now be seriously in range.
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
Tristam was parachuted into donkey with a red rosette territory by Mandelson, after elbowing out the locsl candidate.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
Agreed - you could hardly think of anyone less suited to SOT Central than Tristram. Mark Fisher was way better suited. Going back you had people like John Forrester, Joan Walley and Jack Ashley who were far more representative of the areas they represented than the current shower.
No wonder people don't vote in Stoke Central. First they had an old Etonian as MP for 27 years and now Tristram Hunt.
They voted for Fisher in substantial numbers in 1987, 1992 and 1997 though. Modern day SOT with its service-lite economy is a very different beast from 30 years ago when the pottery industry employed a great many people more than today, you still had a few mines going as well as a lot of disgruntled people against Thatcherism and the visible scars on the landscape (derelict land, closure of Shelton Bar steelworks etc). Those memories have long faded into the background. Although its and hour and 25 minutes on the train from the Metropolitan elite at London Euston, it may as well be a completely different world. I wonder how many times people like Emily Thornberry, Diane Abbott, Meg Hillier and their like have come face to face with WWC voters which predominate in SOT?
Farage should be kept away from the "Out" campaign, but it is immensely unlikely that voters will use a national referendum on a major issue of public policy to give a minor opposition politician a kicking. The referendum on AV went against that charlatan Clegg because he went into government...
Farage should be kept away from the "Out" campaign, but it is immensely unlikely that voters will use a national referendum on a major issue of public policy to give a minor opposition politician a kicking. The referendum on AV went against that charlatan Clegg because he went into government...
Farage's involvement will practically guarantee that 'Out' lose. He's too divisive.
Comments
It is why referenda are poor way to make decisions.
Hannan is the man.
But his organisational skills and interpersonal skills stink and he is holding back both UKIP and the wider Eurosceptic movement. He will destroy everything he and many others have worked so hard to build and for that reason he has to go.
But many more are now voting against him rather than for him.
He may be a big reason we will get a vote
But he will cost the OUT campaign a lot of votes in 2017
Totally crazy. Just had our best result ever at a GE. This whole nonsense is so short sighted.
The two people who seen to have been the problem have gone, and maybe Farage will now be a different type of leader. But the big risk is outing him, losing the ground we have made. Then thinking. 'Why exactly did we do that?'
For me the best evidence he should status the squealing for him to go from Tories... I might start asking Chelsea if they'll sack Mourinho
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Farage looks refreshed tonight on QT, but I'd still much rather have Carswell as leader. A Carswell leadership would be genuinely exciting making the case for a smaller state as well as socially liberally minded as well.
In any case, I have answered your original question.
As I said below Mrs RT is convinced he is not a healthy man.
I don't agree with him on all points but i like the maverick in him and he has shaken up the comfortable elite and so for that alone I wish him good health.
So the US alone has a bigger GDP than the EU.
You count all the people you think Farage puts off and forget all those who only know anything about the eu because of him
I'm sorry but most people don't give a toss about it to be honest, and it's only through Ukip under Farage that people are starting to think about it.
I was merely answering Speedy's question. He seemed to think it was some sort of conspiracy or untruth to say the EU is the world's biggest single market. It's not, it's a straightforward statement of fact based on the most authoritative estimates.
The whole episode shows the contempt for the electorate typical of the Labour party.
But I am not sure that was what you meant.
Farage is more comfortable as a street fighter against Labour right now, but it's a big risk since the Tories have the votes in seats that UKIP can win, and Labour voters prefer a Tory MP than a UKIP MP at present because Farage is to rough.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it?
Don't mention nuns with tristram around.
But you trust the opinion polls, they're never wrong!
And I have facts that disprove your facts.
It is an untruth that the EU is the largest market in the world, even single countries have surpassed it in size, but that happens when the EU growth rate is usually 1% or 0% forever.
The EU will continue to shrink in importance in the world economy in the foreseeable future, it is already performing worse than the USSR in it's dying years.
"Hmm so that would be why under Farage we now have the highest number of people in favour of EU membership since 1991.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of his Eurosceptic policies is it? "
For all the noise that they make and the faux outrage by the Guardian/BBC.
UKIP is possibly one of the least successful anti EU political parties in Europe.
Italy France Austria Greece Spain, and very soon Germany, amongst many others, all have more successful/popular anti EU parties than the UK does.
I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority.
Getting silly now, and we aren't going to agree. All I am saying to all Ukip supporters is careful what you wish for
On one side, you'll have people saying, if we leave the EU we'll become economic lepers (which was their argument for joining the Euro) versus people who say, if you vote to remain in the EU, you're giving 4 billion people the right to move to the UK and give you AIDS.
"I am afraid that in terms of leaving the EU your 4 million UKIP voters is a meaningless number. What we need is someone who can persuade the other 19.5 million voters to get a majority. "
Agreed-which is why you are so right that Farage needs to go and UKIP need to move on
Everything now needs to be built around winning the argument and GOTV for 2017-this isn't Scotland-we really do only have one vote in this generation.
Sadly I suspect you wont be far off the mark
Then there will be the real generational divide between young and old. One of the many reasons why I didn't vote Tory last Thursday was the Pensioner Bond vote bribe. It obviously worked, but for me it remains one of the very worst policies carving up the interests of different sections of the population - so much for 'we're all in it together'. And yet Labour didn't have the courage to criticise it, nor anybody else for that matter.
That referendum did not settle the issue either. In 1983 the Labour party ran on an "Out" manifesto.
It seems the majority of society approves of pisspoor politicians because they can do little harm to them, even if they tried to attack the public interest they wouldn't do much, unlike competent politicians who if they come to power they might be very effective against their own constituents.
Politicians are like vampires to voters.
Whom you would most prefer facing, Christopher Lee or Leslie Nielsen ?
Getting silly now, and we aren't going to agree. All I am saying to all Ukip supporters is careful what you wish for
So don't go on 100% turnout. Go on what we got at this election which is 66.1% turnout. That is just over 28 million people of whom 4 million voted for UKIP. So tell me how a marmite politician like Farage is going to get those other 10 million votes we need? And of course the turnout for the referendum will be considerably higher than the GE so I am being kind to you.
Farage actively drives people away from Euroscepticism. If he is running UKIP in 2017 we do not have a cat in hells chance of winning the referendum.
Farage actively drives people away from Euroscepticism. If he is running UKIP in 2017 we do not have a cat in hells chance of winning the referendum.
He has long ago said he wouldn't be fronting the out campaign as he recognised he divides opinion. Honestly let it go he's not all bad
You're not drinking special brew on an oil rig or something are you?
Labour's only hope is that a long leadership contest is enough to enable others to grow over the months, and build up their own base. In 2010, David Miliband started off as the big favourite, but as we know - lost the leadership election.
"If I can't control all the Short money, you're not having any of it. Ner ner nee ner nah".
Hunt 9 - Very composed
Farage N 7 - Handled a tricky QT well
Mentoes 7 - Did fine.
May 5 - Better at the guitar than being a politico
Hunt 2 - Oh Dear.
Until we get to the end of September, its a honeymoon, but it will soon feel very different when autumn turns to winter this year.
Interesting move to appoint Salmond as SNP spokesman on foreign affairs. Look forward to him ripping shreds out of Hammond. Foreign affairs debates in the HoC have become a must watch event - not before time!
Good night all.
One of my regrets is that I did not go to Syria a few years ago. I was set to but then work intervened. Even if some form of peace comes it will never again be the place it was.
*Documentary channel programmes like how to build or do up a car that make watching paint dry look exciting.
Goodnight.
Chuka Can
(1) Fear works to a considerable extent. The "Out" campaign must have a convincing and positive economic case. The "Yes" campaign in Scotland had a few very rich but utterly utopian nationalist businessmen who had no credible economic message at all.
(2) Do not underestimate the impact of arguments based on sovereignty and identity, which very nearly won in Scotland. "Who should govern Britain?". "Is it your destiny that your fundamental status will be as a citizen of the European Union, rather than as a British citizen?" Whereas very many Scots had a profound emotional attachment to the Union, virtually no one other than the most demented federalists has any emotional attachment to government by Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg.
Good night this time!
http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2015-05-13/carswell-v-farage-row-breaks-out-over-clacton-mps-refusal-to-accept-taxpayers-money/