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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My favourite GE15 spread bet: That there’ll be a CON margin

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  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    James Bartholomew has written a new book: "The Welfare of Nations"

    "What damage is being done by failing welfare states? What lessons can be learned from the best welfare states? And is it too late to stop welfare states permanently diminishing the lives and liberties of people around the world?"

    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/the-welfare-of-nations

    I've ordered a copy, and I'm looking forward to reading it. :-)

    The problem is not welfare per se. The problem is that none of the parties in most countries are honest about it. It only takes another 5% on the tax take to fund the level of welfare dependency that seems wanted in Western European countries.
    5% on the basic rate of tax is £30bn, roughly what we need to spend to keep pace with spending on the NHS every year by 2020, never mind any extra welfare.
    5% on all taxes taking tax take from 40% of GDP to 45%. So it's 1pt on VAT, 1pt on Basic Tax, 2pts on higher tax, etc, etc.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    edited April 2015
    Populus changes from Tuesday

    Lab (nc)
    Con (nc)
    UKIP +1
    LD -2
    Grn +1
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Labour have just made a speech in Edinburgh

    "The SNP will cut spending, we will increase it"

    @lucymanning: SNP says Ed Miliband speech is desperation from Labour- fear & smears. Says only cuts are ones Tories are planning & Labour has signed up to

    Well, glad we got that sorted... Less than 4 weeks to go
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Dair said:

    Have Labour just given up on Scotland ?

    Scotland has given up on Labour. Why flog a dead horse?

    For the obvious reason they will pareto themselves out of existence, like the Tories.

    Scotland clearly sees itself as a distinct political entity. With independence off the table, at some stage politics will return to the day-to-day. When it does, what may happen is that new parties will develop. For example, SNP social democrats will have to decide whether separation really is their primary objective when there is so much devolved power (with a lot more to come) and so much that can be done within the UK. Likewise, the centre right may decide that it needs a rejig. The Tories get 500,000 votes in Scotland. If they were no longer called the Tories, but were a distinctly Scottish party they may well get many more. These parties would then align with other UK parties in the Commons. It's what happens elsewhere in Europe. We will catch up.

    With 50% of Scots desperate to hold another Referendum and dissolve the United Kingdom, the idea politics will "return to normal" any time soon is risible.

    Just face it, the UK is a dead parrot.
    Jeeez, it was only 6 months ago you had only 45% and you lost....

    Opinion polls are not referendums.

    You lost, you lost, you lost.....get that into your thick skulls for a least a while.
    You seem to have missed the really important point.......

    Those that voted "no" were not real Scots so don't count.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @CCHQPress: Michael Fallon on @Ed_Miliband's speech in Scotland today: http://t.co/TTRNK7u3At
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Part-ELBOW for the nine polls so far this week (inc. last night's YG and today's Populus)

    Lab 34.3 (33.8)
    Con 32.6 (34.1)
    UKIP 14.3 (13.7)
    LD 8.5 (8.0)
    Grn 4.6 (4.8)

    (brackets = last week's Easter ELBOW which gave the Tories a 0.4% lead)
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    James Bartholomew has written a new book: "The Welfare of Nations"

    "What damage is being done by failing welfare states? What lessons can be learned from the best welfare states? And is it too late to stop welfare states permanently diminishing the lives and liberties of people around the world?"

    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/the-welfare-of-nations

    I've ordered a copy, and I'm looking forward to reading it. :-)

    The problem is not welfare per se. The problem is that none of the parties in most countries are honest about it. It only takes another 5% on the tax take to fund the level of welfare dependency that seems wanted in Western European countries.
    5% on the basic rate of tax is £30bn, roughly what we need to spend to keep pace with spending on the NHS every year by 2020, never mind any extra welfare.
    It may be £30bn extra income tax if nothing else changes, but watch VAT collapse and unemployment rise..and income tax therefore not rise as much as you expected.

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    (This reply should be to Dair really...who claims to be an ex-tory. guess they kicked him out for not really getting it AT ALL..??)
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Always funny to see sections of the PB Commentariat frenzedly weeping for the state of democracy, last-days-of-the-Roman-Empire style.

    And by "funny", I mean, "you have to laugh at these people, or else you'd surely cry", of course.

    Sorry but who was doing that in the last days of the Roman Empire, where, and in which century?

    What you have to laugh at is the sight of a poster who aspires to be a patronising arse, and fails.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Carnyx said:

    Dair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dair said:

    So good that BBC are sticking with this Labour debacle in Edinburgh.

    Murphy really has lost the plot.

    IN what respect? Just wondering, out of interest.

    It's palpable how bad Labour are and how lacking of any message for Scotland. It also demonstrates that not one of them has the first clue about Scotland (i.e. including Murphy).

    Every time the Labour party says "end the Bedroom Tax in Scotland" they just show how clueless they are.
    Thanks. Technically it's still there I suppose (the Scottish Gmt is paying it out of its overall budget allocation) but I presume that is not what he means.

    It shows how locked into "stock phrases" Labour are.

    They shouldn't mention the Bedroom Tax in Scotland. All it does is highlight in people's minds that the SNP got rid of it already. They could explain that it would free up money but that would make it even clearer - the SNP already got rid of it.

    It has no positive message in Scotland. But they keep mentioning it because that's part of their stock trade of recycled soundbites.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Part-ELBOW for the nine polls so far this week (inc. last night's YG and today's Populus)

    Lab 34.3 (33.8)
    Con 32.6 (34.1)
    UKIP 14.3 (13.7)
    LD 8.5 (8.0)
    Grn 4.6 (4.8)

    (brackets = last week's Easter ELBOW which gave the Tories a 0.4% lead)

    Con still ahead, then (morally speaking).
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Just how desperate do you have to be...

    @TelePolitics: Labour 'dead' in Scotland, MP says as candidates turn to Gordon Brown to save campaign http://t.co/4e6TXDtZB7
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Alistair said:

    calum said:

    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    As a point of order @antifrank I don't think that @calum m posted the 125/1 odds on 0-5 SLab seats until after it had been cut and I had posted about getting 40/1 on it.

    I first tipped the William Hill SLAB markets as soon as they opened in early December. I then flagged each time the odds were cut. The most significant cut came the day before the Survation in late December - I posted as soon as I spotted it:

    "Just spotted that William Hill have slashed their SLAB GE 2015 odds e.g. 0-5 seats down from 125/1 to 66/1 and 11-15 down from 20/1 to 10/1."
    Apologies for missing that.

    You truly are PBTOTY.
    That would be a great honour !!

    Until Tuesday I thought SLAB retaining 6-10 seats was the most likely outcome. Based on recent events and Miliband promising to spend more time in Scotland, I think 0-5 is looking better by the day.

    Anyway as long as SLAB get less than 16 seats I'll make a healthy profit. I'll be donating 50% of any winnings to my MND Campaign:

    https://www.justgiving.com/Calum-Ferguson1/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Just checked - Labour target 106...
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!

    Yes, that and calling Kingswood for the Tories.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    James Bartholomew has written a new book: "The Welfare of Nations"

    "What damage is being done by failing welfare states? What lessons can be learned from the best welfare states? And is it too late to stop welfare states permanently diminishing the lives and liberties of people around the world?"

    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/the-welfare-of-nations

    I've ordered a copy, and I'm looking forward to reading it. :-)

    The problem is not welfare per se. The problem is that none of the parties in most countries are honest about it. It only takes another 5% on the tax take to fund the level of welfare dependency that seems wanted in Western European countries.
    5% on the basic rate of tax is £30bn, roughly what we need to spend to keep pace with spending on the NHS every year by 2020, never mind any extra welfare.
    It may be £30bn extra income tax if nothing else changes, but watch VAT collapse and unemployment rise..and income tax therefore not rise as much as you expected.

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    (This reply should be to Dair really...who claims to be an ex-tory. guess they kicked him out for not really getting it AT ALL..??)
    If people are in such a predicament financially that a loss of 1% of their income will lead to their home being repossessed they are already pretty much buggered to begin with.

    You talk as if there isn't an existing model. There are plenty of models of successfully run, successful economies in Scandinavia which survive perfectly well with the level of expected services being funded fully with a 45% tax to GDP ratio.

    The fact that it is a perfectly rational and workable model does not mean it is one I would necessarily chose. Perhaps that's the real problem with dogmatic politics - a complete failure to understand all sides.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!

    Yes, that and calling Kingswood for the Tories.
    Unless there's something I really am unaware of about Bristol demography I'm struggling to see how NW will be a 'narrow' hold and Filton be TCTC tbh though.

    I'm on Bristol NW at 8-15 so wish to understand this.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This could have been written after reading last night's thread...

    @DPJHodges: Election campaigns come with their own narrative. And that narrative is invariably wrong > Telegraph > http://t.co/Fkrp9q8vRl
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited April 2015
    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    And what will those same millions get to enjoy when the market reacts to Ed Miliband PM? What is the likely but as yet totally not priced into the market trajectory for interest rates? But, as I said earlier, every cloud has a silver lining - it will collapse house prices to some extent or other. Maybe those 18-24 year olds are dead cunning. They vote Ed is Crap into No.10 with the precise intent of collapsing the housing market so they can get onto the ladder. Baldrick is their guru.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Both Miliband and Balls are just Ed on the ballot paper and not Edward Samuel and Edward Michael.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    Dair said:
    Not quite the way I remember it but very funny.
  • "What you have to laugh at is the sight of a poster who aspires to be a patronising arse, and fails."

    What you have to laugh at are Nandos pub bores who fancy themselves as the next Samuel Pepys-cum-Hunter S. Thompson, with a dash of Juvenal. That said, this applies to 99% of the internet.

    No-one cares what we think; what we think affects no-one. And in any other sociopolitical system other than Fukuyama-touted liberal democracy, we'd matter even less than that: don't kid yourselves.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Scott_P said:

    Just how desperate do you have to be...

    @TelePolitics: Labour 'dead' in Scotland, MP says as candidates turn to Gordon Brown to save campaign http://t.co/4e6TXDtZB7

    And this really brings out the scale of the disaster:

    "[SLAB] MPs who did “f*** all” campaigning at the last election because of their large majorities are unable to tell what is happening in their seats because they have nothing to benchmark canvass returns against, The Telegraph has been told."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Both Miliband and Balls are just Ed on the ballot paper and not Edward Samuel and Edward Michael.

    How much of a dent in the vote would Ed get if it was

    Edward Samuel Miliband "Islington" on the Ballot paper rather than

    Ed Miliband "Doncaster" ?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!

    Yes, that and calling Kingswood for the Tories.
    Unless there's something I really am unaware of about Bristol demography I'm struggling to see how NW will be a 'narrow' hold and Filton be TCTC tbh though.

    I'm on Bristol NW at 8-15 so wish to understand this.
    Shadsy has Filton at 4.33 Labour, so could be good value if it really is TCTC. Is there some local issue?

    FWIW the Leicester Mercury has forecast none of the 10 Leics and Rutland seats changing hands. Nicky Morgan seems safe in Loughborough.



  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!

    Yes, that and calling Kingswood for the Tories.
    Unless there's something I really am unaware of about Bristol demography I'm struggling to see how NW will be a 'narrow' hold and Filton be TCTC tbh though.

    I'm on Bristol NW at 8-15 so wish to understand this.
    Probably just the prejudice of the journo's sources. But you never know. Chunky arb available in Kingswood, btw.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited April 2015
    Patrick said:

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    And what will those same millions get to enjoy when the market reacts to Ed Miliband PM? What is the likely but as yet totally not priced into the market trajectory for interest rates? But, as I said earlier, every cloud has a silver lining - it will collapse house prices to some extent or other. Maybe those 18-24 year olds are dead cunning. They vote Ed is Crap into No.10 with the precise intent of collapsing the housing market so they can get onto the ladder. Baldrick is their guru.

    Collapse the housing market, and the Building Societies and Banks won't be lending to 18-24 year olds, or anyone else, without massive deposits. That's assuming they're even still in business.

    'You'd like to borrow to buy a house? OK. And you're able to provide a 50% deposit?'
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Pulpstar I would have thought that Skidmore is safe in Kingswood - incumbency factor, and latish arrival of Labour candidate - had been some infighting. Leslie has raised her profile over the course of the Parliament, ought to hold on in NW seat - her husband to be has been taken off his BBC Bristol radio slot for course of the election.

    Not sure about Filton & Sadly Broke tbh - suspect incumbency factor might help.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Patrick said:

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    And what will those same millions get to enjoy when the market reacts to Ed Miliband PM? What is the likely but as yet totally not priced into the market trajectory for interest rates? But, as I said earlier, every cloud has a silver lining - it will collapse house prices to some extent or other. Maybe those 18-24 year olds are dead cunning. They vote Ed is Crap into No.10 with the precise intent of collapsing the housing market so they can get onto the ladder. Baldrick is their guru.

    Are bond vigilantes really a thing any more, though? I don't remember French rates going bonkers when Hollande got in.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Mystic Meg predictions from Bristol Post for Parliamentary Seats.

    http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/General-Election-predictions-seats-Bristol-area/story-26308556-detail/story.html

    Might amuse some punters here, or alarm them.

    Those look sensible enough.
    Pulpstar said:

    Interesting they have Filton and Bradley Stoke TCTC mind, that's Labour target 130 odd isn't it ?!

    Yes, that and calling Kingswood for the Tories.
    Unless there's something I really am unaware of about Bristol demography I'm struggling to see how NW will be a 'narrow' hold and Filton be TCTC tbh though.

    I'm on Bristol NW at 8-15 so wish to understand this.
    Shadsy has Filton at 4.33 Labour, so could be good value if it really is TCTC. Is there some local issue?

    FWIW the Leicester Mercury has forecast none of the 10 Leics and Rutland seats changing hands. Nicky Morgan seems safe in Loughborough.



    I'm not going to back Labour off the back of a journo article, fwiw I have backed them in Bristol West though. Just curious as to understand why they could possibly think Filton could be too close to call.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    It has been reported a few months ago that the contact rate of some Scottish CLPs was so low that the total number of contacts in some cases were lower than those registrated for ward branches in London CLPs (which traditionally have more active CLPs).
    Ishmael_X said:

    Scott_P said:

    Just how desperate do you have to be...

    @TelePolitics: Labour 'dead' in Scotland, MP says as candidates turn to Gordon Brown to save campaign http://t.co/4e6TXDtZB7

    And this really brings out the scale of the disaster:

    "[SLAB] MPs who did “f*** all” campaigning at the last election because of their large majorities are unable to tell what is happening in their seats because they have nothing to benchmark canvass returns against, The Telegraph has been told."
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Afternoon all. The thing I find most telling about the Jim, Ed and Ed show this morning is that it took place in Edinburgh. More than half of Labour's seats are in Strathclyde and it makes me wonder, has Labour written off Glasgow? Willie Bain is a nice wee chap and it would be funny if he becomes Shadow Sec of State for Scotland after 8th May.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Afternoon all. The thing I find most telling about the Jim, Ed and Ed show this morning is that it took place in Edinburgh. More than half of Labour's seats are in Strathclyde and it makes me wonder, has Labour written off Glasgow? Willie Bain is a nice wee chap and it would be funny if he becomes Shadow Sec of State for Scotland after 8th May.

    I heard a quote from Margaret Curran recently

    "If I am Scottish Secretary after the election..."

    I don't know what the rest was, I was doubled up laughing so hard
  • Another Scottish Labour MP said: “I would be perfectly happy to Gordon out and about in the campaign trail more. That would not be a draw back in the slightest
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11527524/Labour-dead-in-Scotland-MP-says-as-candidates-turn-to-Gordon-Brown-to-save-campaign.html

    Doesn't it just say it all about the sheer, barking nuttiness of Scotland in general and Scotch Labour in particular that Gordon Brown is still seen as an asset?
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Patrick said:



    If a system does not deliver for most people, do not be surprised if they seek to change it. If your way worked, people would vote for it. Taxes were higher under Mrs Thatcher, the welfare state was far more generous. Those are two inescapable facts.
    SO I don't disagree with you. Inequality is an issue. ....

    The moral is that politicians should always push to:
    1. Manage the economy sensibly, keep sound money and keep us competitive
    2. Stop rent seeking and push for equality as far as they can
    3. Be honest and open about where we are and the hard choices we face
    4. and pigs might fly

    We borrow so much because corporations, banks and individuals with more money than they can ever hope to spend prefer to hoard it and hide it away than share it (and why pay taxes to boost state spending when you can lend the money and make a profit?). For me, that's the problem; not the fact that some voters - most of whom have seen their living standards stagnate or fall - do not buy into the fact that trickle down works. I am not advocating we go out and spend hundreds of billions of pounds we do not have; neither am I saying that capitalism is inherently wrong; I don't believe either thing. What I am saying is that the system as it currently is has palpably failed for many millions of people. And that is why they vote as they do. Sneering at the choices they make may make you feel better but it is not a solution. If people do not feel they have a stake in a society they will seek to create a society in which they do feel they have a stake.

    We borrow so much Mr SO because Labour spent so much. Between 2000 and 2010 the IFS figures show that Labour increased spending by 50% in real terms. There was never any likelihood that this would be affordable.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dr_spyn said:

    @Pulpstar I would have thought that Skidmore is safe in Kingswood - incumbency factor, and latish arrival of Labour candidate - had been some infighting. Leslie has raised her profile over the course of the Parliament, ought to hold on in NW seat - her husband to be has been taken off his BBC Bristol radio slot for course of the election.

    Not sure about Filton & Sadly Broke tbh - suspect incumbency factor might help.

    I see in 2010 they had "Zero - none of the above" as a candidate in Filton and Bradly Stoke"

    http://www.bradleystokejournal.co.uk/plus/2010/04/11/none-above-stand-filton-bradley-stoke-election/
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723

    Populus changes from Tuesday

    Lab (nc)
    Con (nc)
    UKIP +1
    LD -2
    Grn +1

    Adding Populus into the mix I think the conclusion has to be that there hasn't been any discernable movement this week.

    YouGov and Populus are both highly established pollsters polling on a very frequent basis and they both show no change.

    ComRes has Con lead down 3 but their previous Con +4 was obviously way on the high side.

    TNS moved towards Lab but historically TNS has been good for Lab and just counting certain to vote TNS was actually only Lab +1, not the headline Lab +3.

    That just leaves Panelbase and Survation. The chances of Panelbase and Survation both correctly picking up a genuine change when none of the others detected anything are, in my view, pretty low.

    In retrospect the 7 polls published yesterday / today don't change the position in either direction - and even if there was a hint of positive for Lab in the national polls it is offset by the YouGov Scotland.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,780

    Another Scottish Labour MP said: “I would be perfectly happy to Gordon out and about in the campaign trail more. That would not be a draw back in the slightest
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11527524/Labour-dead-in-Scotland-MP-says-as-candidates-turn-to-Gordon-Brown-to-save-campaign.html

    Doesn't it just say it all about the sheer, barking nuttiness of Scotland in general and Scotch Labour in particular that Gordon Brown is still seen as an asset?

    He might be still in Scotland, but his 'save the union/vow' was his last hurrah surely. the political world has moved on, what does he have to say?
  • JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    James Bartholomew has written a new book: "The Welfare of Nations"

    "What damage is being done by failing welfare states? What lessons can be learned from the best welfare states? And is it too late to stop welfare states permanently diminishing the lives and liberties of people around the world?"

    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/the-welfare-of-nations

    I've ordered a copy, and I'm looking forward to reading it. :-)

    The problem is not welfare per se. The problem is that none of the parties in most countries are honest about it. It only takes another 5% on the tax take to fund the level of welfare dependency that seems wanted in Western European countries.
    5% on the basic rate of tax is £30bn, roughly what we need to spend to keep pace with spending on the NHS every year by 2020, never mind any extra welfare.
    It may be £30bn extra income tax if nothing else changes, but watch VAT collapse and unemployment rise..and income tax therefore not rise as much as you expected.

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    (This reply should be to Dair really...who claims to be an ex-tory. guess they kicked him out for not really getting it AT ALL..??)
    If people are in such a predicament financially that a loss of 1% of their income will lead to their home being repossessed they are already pretty much buggered to begin with.

    You talk as if there isn't an existing model. There are plenty of models of successfully run, successful economies in Scandinavia which survive perfectly well with the level of expected services being funded fully with a 45% tax to GDP ratio.

    The fact that it is a perfectly rational and workable model does not mean it is one I would necessarily chose. Perhaps that's the real problem with dogmatic politics - a complete failure to understand all sides.
    5% on income tax is a lot more than 1% of income surely - depends on your salary of course but take a median income of £26K. 5% of the £16K which is taxed is £800. In fact £26K gross is about £20767 according the MSE website.

    So going from £20767 to under £20K take home is a loss of about 4%, not 1%

    Disposable income out of that £20767 will be way less after bills, say half, so disposable income falls by 8%, maybe more.

    1% is way off. But I do agree that a lot of people are financially on the edge. This is true, and is another reason why massive tax hike is a terrible idea.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2015
    Anyway Gordon has been out a bit so far.

    She opened the campaign of 3 Ayrshire MPs (Clarke, Donohoe e Osborne).

    I've seen that he wrote a personally addressed letter to Edinburgh South voters asking them to re-elect Murray.
    https://electionleaflets.org/leaflets/full/70441/
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Dair said:

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    James Bartholomew has written a new book: "The Welfare of Nations"

    "What damage is being done by failing welfare states? What lessons can be learned from the best welfare states? And is it too late to stop welfare states permanently diminishing the lives and liberties of people around the world?"

    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/the-welfare-of-nations

    I've ordered a copy, and I'm looking forward to reading it. :-)

    The problem is not welfare per se. The problem is that none of the parties in most countries are honest about it. It only takes another 5% on the tax take to fund the level of welfare dependency that seems wanted in Western European countries.
    5% on the basic rate of tax is £30bn, roughly what we need to spend to keep pace with spending on the NHS every year by 2020, never mind any extra welfare.
    It may be £30bn extra income tax if nothing else changes, but watch VAT collapse and unemployment rise..and income tax therefore not rise as much as you expected.

    Millions of people would not be able to afford their mortgages if they had to find an extra 5% income tax, or would have to seriously adjust their other expenditure downwards with grim economic consequences.

    (This reply should be to Dair really...who claims to be an ex-tory. guess they kicked him out for not really getting it AT ALL..??)
    If people are in such a predicament financially that a loss of 1% of their income will lead to their home being repossessed they are already pretty much buggered to begin with.

    You talk as if there isn't an existing model. There are plenty of models of successfully run, successful economies in Scandinavia which survive perfectly well with the level of expected services being funded fully with a 45% tax to GDP ratio.

    The fact that it is a perfectly rational and workable model does not mean it is one I would necessarily chose. Perhaps that's the real problem with dogmatic politics - a complete failure to understand all sides.
    5% on income tax is a lot more than 1% of income surely - depends on your salary of course but take a median income of £26K. 5% of the £16K which is taxed is £800. In fact £26K gross is about £20767 according the MSE website.

    So going from £20767 to under £20K take home is a loss of about 4%, not 1%

    Disposable income out of that £20767 will be way less after bills, say half, so disposable income falls by 8%, maybe more.

    1% is way off. But I do agree that a lot of people are financially on the edge. This is true, and is another reason why massive tax hike is a terrible idea.
    Dair's comments just show himself up.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It's still Easter Week hols - the impatience on here for goodies is bizarre given we're almost 4 weeks from D-Day.
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Are Jim Messina and Lynton Crosby in some sort of competition to work out who can come up with the worst election strategy ?

    It's baffling. The Conservatives have come up with proposals of footling triviality.
    One can but hope that the manifesto itself will be replete with goodies.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    MikeL said:

    Populus changes from Tuesday

    Lab (nc)
    Con (nc)
    UKIP +1
    LD -2
    Grn +1

    Adding Populus into the mix I think the conclusion has to be that there hasn't been any discernable movement this week.

    YouGov and Populus are both highly established pollsters polling on a very frequent basis and they both show no change.

    ComRes has Con lead down 3 but their previous Con +4 was obviously way on the high side.

    TNS moved towards Lab but historically TNS has been good for Lab and just counting certain to vote TNS was actually only Lab +1, not the headline Lab +3.

    That just leaves Panelbase and Survation. The chances of Panelbase and Survation both correctly picking up a genuine change when none of the others detected anything are, in my view, pretty low.

    In retrospect the 7 polls published yesterday / today don't change the position in either direction - and even if there was a hint of positive for Lab in the national polls it is offset by the YouGov Scotland.
    I don't disagree. Maybe a hint of movement to Labour. And yet the markets have shifted quite considerably. Notably on PM after the GE, which is now basically 50-50 on betfair.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Plato said:

    It's still Easter Week hols - the impatience on here for goodies is bizarre given we're almost 4 weeks from D-Day.

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Are Jim Messina and Lynton Crosby in some sort of competition to work out who can come up with the worst election strategy ?

    It's baffling. The Conservatives have come up with proposals of footling triviality.
    One can but hope that the manifesto itself will be replete with goodies.
    Correct. No-one is going to "win" every day or every week.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @HurstLlama Thought you'd appreciate this. I found at the back of my fridge a pack of Tesco Finest fillet steak - from Christmas. I opened the wrapping and it looked edible. Fried it with butter and WOW it was fantastic.

    I gave a large chunk to Bayou - she sniffed and then left it on the carpet. I then tore it into very small pieces and eventually she decided it was an acceptable lunch.

    I must leave fillet in the fridge for 4 months again if this was the result. Just so yummy! The other steak is going with mushrooms and French beans for dinner.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015


    5% on income tax is

    5% increase in basic tax is an additional 1.25ppts. On higher rate it is 2.25ppts.

    It is not 5ppts.

    BUt bugger it just realised my error. The required increase is 12.5% so multiply these numbers by 2.5
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    MikeL said:

    Populus changes from Tuesday

    Lab (nc)
    Con (nc)
    UKIP +1
    LD -2
    Grn +1

    Adding Populus into the mix I think the conclusion has to be that there hasn't been any discernable movement this week.

    YouGov and Populus are both highly established pollsters polling on a very frequent basis and they both show no change.

    ComRes has Con lead down 3 but their previous Con +4 was obviously way on the high side.

    TNS moved towards Lab but historically TNS has been good for Lab and just counting certain to vote TNS was actually only Lab +1, not the headline Lab +3.

    That just leaves Panelbase and Survation. The chances of Panelbase and Survation both correctly picking up a genuine change when none of the others detected anything are, in my view, pretty low.

    In retrospect the 7 polls published yesterday / today don't change the position in either direction - and even if there was a hint of positive for Lab in the national polls it is offset by the YouGov Scotland.
    But on Easter Sunday, the ELBOW plot of weekly Lab leads looked like this, with the Tories actually taking the lead for the first time - last time Lab were any where near 1.7% ahead was February:

    https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/585149148980187136
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Can you shout at Andrew Neil so he notices the whole polling average not the 5 day thingy he's been using on Twitter?

    Part-ELBOW for the nine polls so far this week (inc. last night's YG and today's Populus)

    Lab 34.3 (33.8)
    Con 32.6 (34.1)
    UKIP 14.3 (13.7)
    LD 8.5 (8.0)
    Grn 4.6 (4.8)

    (brackets = last week's Easter ELBOW which gave the Tories a 0.4% lead)

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @carlmaxim: 100 ex-girlfriends of Ed Miliband now writing a letter to the Daily Telegraph.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I don't disagree. Maybe a hint of movement to Labour. And yet the markets have shifted quite considerably. Notably on PM after the GE, which is now basically 50-50 on betfair.

    This site has had Labour ahead for a week.

    http://bet2015.co.uk/

    Until last night, when the Tories edged ahead again
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Surely nothing could be lower than Dennis McShane who apparently didn't answer the phone in his CLP office in years.

    It has been reported a few months ago that the contact rate of some Scottish CLPs was so low that the total number of contacts in some cases were lower than those registrated for ward branches in London CLPs (which traditionally have more active CLPs).


    Ishmael_X said:

    Scott_P said:

    Just how desperate do you have to be...

    @TelePolitics: Labour 'dead' in Scotland, MP says as candidates turn to Gordon Brown to save campaign http://t.co/4e6TXDtZB7

    And this really brings out the scale of the disaster:

    "[SLAB] MPs who did “f*** all” campaigning at the last election because of their large majorities are unable to tell what is happening in their seats because they have nothing to benchmark canvass returns against, The Telegraph has been told."
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2015
    Scotland YG tables

    http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/9unqqunlzn/Times_Scotland_Results_150409_Formatted_readyforwebsite.pdf

    Scots: SNP 52, Lab 25, Con 16
    RUk: Lab 30, SNP 28, Con 25
    Migrants: SNP 49, Con 21, Lab 10.

    Tories level with Labour in Scotland among pensioners, and nine points ahead in Wales with over 60s.

    In fact, Tories are virtually level with Labour across all but the Thatcher generation (40-59) in Scotland.

    Leader Approval

    Sturgeon +48 (up 15)
    Murphy - 18 (up 7)
    Cameron -25 (up 11)
    Miliband - 46 (up 7)
    Clegg - 54 (up 16)

    Murphy and Miliband underperforming the field.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,032
    I see the Sporting Index midpoints has the Tory lead down another 2 seats today from 11. That is down from 16 at the beginning of the week.

    Dare I suggest that ARSE is becoming something of an outlier?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Brave predictions of our time. NB the coalition performance in Scotland.

    http://moneyweek.com/election-2015-why-david-cameron-will-remain-prime-minister/
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Patrick said:



    If a system does not deliver for most people, do not be surprised if they seek to change it. If your way worked, people would vote for it. Taxes were higher under Mrs Thatcher, the welfare state was far more generous. Those are two inescapable facts.
    SO I don't disagree with you. Inequality is an issue. ....

    The moral is that politicians should always push to:
    1. Manage the economy sensibly, keep sound money and keep us competitive
    2. Stop rent seeking and push for equality as far as they can
    3. Be honest and open about where we are and the hard choices we face
    4. and pigs might fly

    We borrow so much because corporations, banks and individuals with more money than they can ever hope to spend prefer to hoard it and hide it away than share it (and why pay taxes to boost state spending when you can lend the money and make a profit?). For me, that's the problem; not the fact that some voters - most of whom have seen their living standards stagnate or fall - do not buy into the fact that trickle down works. I am not advocating we go out and spend hundreds of billions of pounds we do not have; neither am I saying that capitalism is inherently wrong; I don't believe either thing. What I am saying is that the system as it currently is has palpably failed for many millions of people. And that is why they vote as they do. Sneering at the choices they make may make you feel better but it is not a solution. If people do not feel they have a stake in a society they will seek to create a society in which they do feel they have a stake.
    We borrow so much Mr SO because Labour spent so much. Between 2000 and 2010 the IFS figures show that Labour increased spending by 50% in real terms. There was never any likelihood that this would be affordable.

    Er, why not? Rather playing down the British economy there aren't you?
  • Brave predictions of our time. NB the coalition performance in Scotland.

    http://moneyweek.com/election-2015-why-david-cameron-will-remain-prime-minister/

    7!
  • New thread.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Brave predictions of our time. NB the coalition performance in Scotland.

    http://moneyweek.com/election-2015-why-david-cameron-will-remain-prime-minister/

    7!
    7 Tories in Scotland

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT Does anyone have a sub to CBS AllAccess? It looks pretty good as an all-you-can-eat channel option.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited April 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @carlmaxim: 100 ex-girlfriends of Ed Miliband now writing a letter to the Daily Telegraph.

    Is Duncan Bannatyne joining them too?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,774

    Anyway Gordon has been out a bit so far.

    She opened the campaign of 3 Ayrshire MPs (Clarke, Donohoe e Osborne).

    I've seen that he wrote a personally addressed letter to Edinburgh South voters asking them to re-elect Murray.
    https://electionleaflets.org/leaflets/full/70441/

    Well I didn't get it.
    "I hope you'll join Ian and I on the 28th".
This discussion has been closed.