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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on the exit of David Miliband + latest South Shields b

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Marf on the exit of David Miliband + latest South Shields betting

After a morning with a lot of betting moves the William Hill 1/20 is the best South Shields price for LAB. bit.ly/u6wr8r

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520
    Thats reassured me a bit that I've made the right moves. Also hope Lady Gaga can reach 40 million twitter followers before the year end...
  • Per the Order of the Court of Appeal made today in Othman:
    '(3) Application for permission to appeal to be made in writing by 4pm on Wednesday 17th April 2013 and the Respondent has permission to reply by 4pm on 24th April 2012'
    SIAC will have to revisit the bail position before then...
  • glassfetglassfet Posts: 220
    @oflynnexpress: BTW Kevin Maguire would definitely like DMili's seat - his seat on the board of Sunderland AFC that is.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,371
    Afternoon all :)

    I've been too busy to follow all the ramifications of David Milliband's departure. It reminds me of Bryan Gould's exit in the 1990s. Perhaps there simply comes a point when politics no longer has an appeal. That may seem inconceivable to those on here who feel the need to comment on every nuance and shift in the political world (and who probably have never been involved in active politics) but ultimately it's a career with all the rewards and frustrations thereof.

    It's hard to see beyond a Labour win and I note the strong BNP performance in 2010 suggesting there's a vote there for someone. UKIP ? Possibly but it's the kind of place where a well-known local running as an Independent might do well.

    On the County Council elections, it will be fascinating to see the runners and riders when the entries are announced in a couple of weeks. In a county like Surrey, I will be fascinated to see if UKIP are able to put up candidates in all 81 divisions and whether the Lib Dems will fight more than half the seats. At the moment, I'm glad I've stepped back from frontline political activity - the idea of going out and knocking on doors in this weather is far from appealing. I have known spring elections with the weather glorious and going out on evenings like that can be a real pleasure. People want to talk and are usually more affable even if you know they're not going to support you.
  • glassfetglassfet Posts: 220
    @GuidoFawkes: RT @Kevin_Maguire: Peter Mandelson's already lit his candle and put it in the window in hope of a David Miliband return. Lord Mili of South Shields? We'll see
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    FPT @SeanT

    You are quite right that the article by Edward Sciucluna is well written.

    What is even more remarkable is that Sciucluna is a member of the recent election winning Maltese Labour Party. The lessons he draws from his experience of the EU "bullying of Cyprus" are most unusual for a Leftie:

    The feeling one got on exiting the meeting in the early hours of the day was that never in one’s life would one like to dream the experience let alone live it. That is indeed salutary to any finance minister who needs to be reminded that any fiscal slippage in the country’s public finances is done at a great risk to the country’s economic welfare.

    I would put Sciucluna's wisdom down to his education at Oxford University had Ed Balls and Ed Milband not existed as a standing refutation of my line of argument.

    Maybe he studied at Magdalen or Brasenose rather than Corpus Christi or Keble?
  • glassfetglassfet Posts: 220
    @SkyNewsBreak: Reuters: ban on cashing cheques, 3,000 Euro limit on cash to be taken abroad and 5,000 Euro limit on overseas card use imposed in Cyprus
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2013
    "The head of Italy's centre-left bloc, Pier Luigi Bersani, has hit an impasse in his efforts to form a government and said only a mentally ill person would want to govern Italy now."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21956855
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)


    On the County Council elections, it will be fascinating to see the runners and riders when the entries are announced in a couple of weeks. In a county like Surrey, I will be fascinated to see if UKIP are able to put up candidates in all 81 divisions and whether the Lib Dems will fight more than half the seats. At the moment, I'm glad I've stepped back from frontline political activity - the idea of going out and knocking on doors in this weather is far from appealing. I have known spring elections with the weather glorious and going out on evenings like that can be a real pleasure. People want to talk and are usually more affable even if you know they're not going to support you.

    Why I am not yet convinced the Tories will do as badly as in 1993. Tories switching to UKIP I can see, less so to Labour or the LDs apart from the usual swing voters. 2009 was a record year for the Tories in the CC so some fall back is to be expected. 2005 would be a good comparison, when the CCs were held on the same day as the GE.

    Further, CC in 1993 included within them the more Labourite larger cities. Lots of these have now been hived off, which should limit the Tory losses compared to 1993.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    AndyJS said:

    "The head of Italy's centre-left bloc, Pier Luigi Bersani, has hit an impasse in his efforts to form a government and said only a mentally ill person would want to govern Italy now."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21956855


    So he's endorsing Berlusconi then? Shocking twist!

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Iain Duncan Smith heckled at speech

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953896

    @JamesKelly should love this ;-)

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    glassfet said:

    @SkyNewsBreak: Reuters: ban on cashing cheques, 3,000 Euro limit on cash to be taken abroad and 5,000 Euro limit on overseas card use imposed in Cyprus

    They're halfway to abandoning the eurozone already, if they choose to.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Using my Heath Robinson spreadsheet, I predict ahem ahem...

    South Shields

    Labour 48%
    UKIP 33%
    Con 6%
    BNP 2%
    LD 2%

    others 9%
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Iain Duncan Smith heckled at speech

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953896

    @JamesKelly should love this ;-)

    I know they hate the Tories up in Scotland, but I've never had such hate for a political party in my life as shown in that video, I cannot even imagine it even when I've been outright disgusted by the actions of a particular party, almost physically disgusted on rare occasions. It seems very exhausting. Still, takes all sorts I guess.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520
    Cypriot caveat "payments for commercial transactions within the ordinary activities of the client by presenting documentary evidence. Not require the production of documents for amounts not exceeding €500."

    1/4 oz gold krugerrands and Bitcoin transactions it is then...
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Socrates said:

    Rising costs of benefits

    Looks like it's peaked, leveling off in the last year.

    (Only kidding, I know SPA is going up for women.)
  • @Sam

    Thanks Sam.

    Looks fairly plausible - probably a bit light on Labour and heavy on UKIP, but wouldn't surprise me if that were the result.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Hmm, this seems to be asking for trouble.

    "[Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson] says he reckons even organised criminals would be nice to him."

    That said, in the last Fast and Furious movie he was so beefy, even for a former wrestler, that his muscles could be seen from space. As the old joke goes, he was not merely beefy, he contained entire herds.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/21923444
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Labour moving to the left again.

    Would be amusing if it wasn't for the fact they should get largest party after the next election.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "The head of Italy's centre-left bloc, Pier Luigi Bersani, has hit an impasse in his efforts to form a government and said only a mentally ill person would want to govern Italy now."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21956855
    So he's endorsing Berlusconi then? Shocking twist!



    Paging Gordon Brown
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited March 2013
    There will probably be 1 or 2 strong Independent candidates standing in the by election . Ahmed Khan is probably the most interesting potential candidate , former councillor and well known locally with the notoriety of the local council spending several £ 100,000 on the twitter legal case involving The Mr Monkey mystery blogger
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    kle4 -

    I'm surprised by your reaction. It was obviously forcibly expressed, but the guy was voicing mainstream opinion. I'm not sure I approve of heckling on the whole, but it can't be an entirely bad thing if London Tories are occasionally forced to face the views of the people they are lording it over on a quasi-colonial basis.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    kle4 said:

    Iain Duncan Smith heckled at speech

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953896

    @JamesKelly should love this ;-)

    I know they hate the Tories up in Scotland, but I've never had such hate for a political party in my life as shown in that video, I cannot even imagine it even when I've been outright disgusted by the actions of a particular party, almost physically disgusted on rare occasions. It seems very exhausting. Still, takes all sorts I guess.
    IDS is the man largely responsible for making a job pay more than benefits. I've been to Scotland, from the bits I hung around at*, I reckon the people there will hate the thought of that. It was a good place to get into fights, or get smack for a fiver or a few scruffy bags of speed, or to meet young girls with teeth missing, but not a place where you'd meet many Tory supporters.

    Why vote for someone offering hope or change or a fairer system when you can vote for the Labour party up there.

    *I've been on zillions of rugby tours with our club. The southern parts of Edinburgh is not a place any of us have ever gone back to. And we are from the - supposedly - poverty-stricken valleys.

    What an absolute shithole.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030

    Iain Duncan Smith heckled at speech

    Poor Willie- still peeved at only getting 233 votes in 2010?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_North_and_Leith_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    @kle4,was it just hate for the party or was abit of anti Englishness there,especially the bit at the end.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Fenster - What a delightful chap you appear to be.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited March 2013
    @MarkSenior

    That would help my Tories < 10% bet. I will seek out his email address and encourage him to stand ;)
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited March 2013
    @Neil

    I have replied to your calumnious allegation that I misled or intended to mislead PB on the previous thread as you didn't bring forward your reply to my original post.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    kle4 -

    I'm surprised by your reaction. It was obviously forcibly expressed, but the guy was voicing mainstream opinion. I'm not sure I approve of heckling on the whole, but it can't be an entirely bad thing if London Tories are occasionally forced to face the views of the people they are lording it over on a quasi-colonial basis.

    Thats why I hope scotland votes for independace,once independant,just watch how Quickly the right recovers in Scotland.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    @kle4,was it just hate for the party or was abit of anti Englishness there,especially the bit at the end.

    Have to admit that seemed an unnnecessary ending to his remarks, but I guess he could just have meant that England is [currently] Tory country, so that's where Tories should go and be comfortable? Still, I doubt he cared about undermining any of his own points by ranting, or he'd have just sent IDS an email, not getting himself on the news.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    kle4 -

    I'm surprised by your reaction. It was obviously forcibly expressed, but the guy was voicing mainstream opinion. I'm not sure I approve of heckling on the whole, but it can't be an entirely bad thing if London Tories are occasionally forced to face the views of the people they are lording it over on a quasi-colonial basis.

    Yes. Colonial regimes were indeed famous for over-representing their colonies in parliament.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Curse of the new thread - a most excellent cat video. And why cats are clearly a lot smarter than dogs. This one can take a dog for a walk and meow at the front door to be let back in.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnrCki4Cmzw
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Thats why I hope scotland votes for independace,once independant,just watch how Quickly the right recovers in Scotland"

    Hmmm. Maybe, but that's what they said would happen after devolution as well.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited March 2013

    kle4 -

    I'm surprised by your reaction. It was obviously forcibly expressed, but the guy was voicing mainstream opinion. I'm not sure I approve of heckling on the whole, but it can't be an entirely bad thing if London Tories are occasionally forced to face the views of the people they are lording it over on a quasi-colonial basis.

    I'm not saying hating Tories, forcefully, is not mainstream, in Scotland at least. I just have never hated any party so viciously as that, so have a hard time reconciling the fact that many people do. And I stress it's not because I'm just super understanding and mellow - the vote on 90 day detention for instance made me feel extremely ashamed and almost physically disgusted, and the parties in favour went down a lot in my estimations - but the level of vitriol so often expressed (and it applies to the anyone-but-labour folk too) is often too over the top for me.

    Things are sometimes so bad that vicious hatred is needed, but party political decisions and their consequences do so pretty rarely. Not never. But rarely
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    "Thats why I hope scotland votes for independace,once independant,just watch how Quickly the right recovers in Scotland"

    Hmmm. Maybe, but that's what they said would happen after devolution as well.

    Different matter when you have a economy to look after.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Yes. Colonial regimes were indeed famous for over-representing their colonies in parliament."

    Non-colonial regimes are not generally noted for imposing right-wing welfare policies on a people that wants to control welfare for itself (as demonstrated by the recent YouGov poll).
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    Fenster - What a delightful chap you appear to be.

    Just speaking as I find. I couldn't believe how rough it was (I won't name the exact areas). We were offered smack in a bar. And saw a few fights each night. Ended up back at a flat where the girl who owned it didn't have a front door, just a curtain. It was depressing.

    I remember thinking, 'and people think Merthyr is bad'. It was on a whole different level.

    For IDS to ever gain any traction in places like that would take an absolute miracle. Some of the people I saw there weren't just out of work, they were incapable of working.

    I still enjoyed myself though.

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Different matter when you have a economy to look after."

    So only right-wing parties can manage the economy? That's why every democratic independent country on the planet has a right-wing government, is it?

    Moving on...
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "For IDS to ever gain any traction in places like that would take an absolute miracle."

    Thank Christ. If it takes smack-heads and doorless homes (that trusty Union Dividend again!) to spot that the coalition's welfare policies are inhuman, then bring on the smack-heads.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @CarlottaVance

    'Poor Willie- still peeved at only getting 233 votes in 2010?'

    Seems that 'rent-a-gob' was determined to make a bigger tit of himself than in 2010.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "Yes. Colonial regimes were indeed famous for over-representing their colonies in parliament."

    Non-colonial regimes are not generally noted for imposing right-wing welfare policies on a people that wants to control welfare for itself (as demonstrated by the recent YouGov poll).

    You're stretching the definition of "colonialism" beyond belief. Plenty of governmentsenact policies across the whole state that some component geographies might prefer to be done locally.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Plenty of governments enact policies across the whole state that some component geographies might prefer to be done locally."

    Then it would probably be a good thing if those governments stopped behaving in such a quasi-colonial manner - and as supporters of the principle of "subsidiarity" I would expect most PB Eurosceptics to agree with me.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    @Socrates

    Colonialism is one of those words which has pretty much lost all meaning. And that's not a Scotland thing, but in general.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    "Different matter when you have a economy to look after."

    So only right-wing parties can manage the economy? That's why every democratic independent country on the planet has a right-wing government, is it?

    Moving on...


    No but - The snp/labour won't be able to fall on they old get out of jail card(blame the tories) if big cuts come or the economy turns downward.

    Independant scotland,I'm all for it,bring it on.

  • glassfetglassfet Posts: 220
    @MichaelPDeacon: David Miliband - a nation mourns: my @telegraph sketch. http://bit.ly/10indLW
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "Plenty of governments enact policies across the whole state that some component geographies might prefer to be done locally."

    Then it would probably be a good thing if those governments stopped behaving in such a quasi-colonial manner - and as supporters of the principle of "subsidiarity" I would expect most PB Eurosceptics to agree with me.

    Personally, I'd be quite happy for Scotland to have its own welfare system. However, to call debates over whether a policy should be handled centrally versus locally "quasi-colonial" is just ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the home counties would have preferred tax rates to be decided locally during Gordon Brown's reign, but it wasn't colonialism, quasi- or otherwise.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The snp/labour won't be able to fall on they old get out of jail card(blame the tories) if big cuts come or the economy turns downward"

    On the other hand they might actually run Scotland's economy far better than London Tories.

    Just a thought...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,979
    Arguments over wagers

    Just to note that comments from late 2010 are still on the system and can easily be viewed.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    "The snp/labour won't be able to fall on they old get out of jail card(blame the tories) if big cuts come or the economy turns downward"

    On the other hand they might actually run Scotland's economy far better than London Tories.

    Just a thought...

    Could do,but those oil fields won't last for ever ;-)

  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Could do,but those oil fields won't last for ever ;-)"

    Just as well the Pentland Firth's status as the Saudi Arabia of marine renewable potential is permanent, then. In the meantime, another four decades of oil and gas will keep things ticking over.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    JamesKelly: "On the other hand they might actually run Scotland's economy far better than London Tories"

    Come on now, that's a pretty low bar to be setting your future success by.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,528
    edited March 2013
    I have said many times good luck to an independent Scotland. Just a shame that the case is being made in such a shoddy fashion by the SNP.

    And announcing the date of the referendum the same day as Euro-bit player Cyprus is crashing and burning because of its banking sector...pure genius.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Darius Guppy for PM.

    See Guido for details.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "However, to call debates over whether a policy should be handled centrally versus locally "quasi-colonial" is just ridiculous. I'm pretty sure the home counties would have preferred tax rates to be decided locally during Gordon Brown's reign, but it wasn't colonialism, quasi- or otherwise."

    Can you point me to a single opinion poll from that period pointing to support for a Home Counties parliament with the power to set tax rates?

    I suspect you can't.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924

    kle4 -

    I'm surprised by your reaction. It was obviously forcibly expressed, but the guy was voicing mainstream opinion. I'm not sure I approve of heckling on the whole, but it can't be an entirely bad thing if London Tories are occasionally forced to face the views of the people they are lording it over on a quasi-colonial basis.

    This is where I part company with Scottish nationalism. Use of terms such as quasi-colonial indicate to me that beyond the claims of civic nationalism, there is soemthing nastier at work.

    The Tories are in a coalition with the LibDems. This is as the result of an election which took place with the full consent of the Scottish people, who all had the chance to vote in it, in the same way that all general elections have taken place in Scotland since the introduction of universal suffrage. Of those that did vote, 35% voted either LibDem or Tory. In 2014, the Scots will get a referendum on dissolving the Union their Parliament entered into voluntarily in 1707, having indicated in their devolved eleciton of 2011 (held after the general election) that they would like one. If they vote for independence that is what they get. Until that point they are a constituent part of the UK, having never been forced at any stage to be one. There is absolutely nothing colonial, quasi or otherwise, about Scotland's current status. Scotland has two parties in power in Westminster that Scotland did not vote for. Just as England had a party in power there from 2005 to 2010 that it did not vote for.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Marquee Mark as a pundit on Scottish politics.

    It would take a heart of stone not to laugh.
  • samsam Posts: 727
    Has it been noted that Conservatives have lost control of Lewes council? 2 defections to ukip
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scotland wants something for nothing shock.

    If you want to imagine the performance of the economy of Scotland post independence - see the football team. No Westminster interference for the Sfa - just poor raw materials, no vision and no answers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Quite so, Mr. Observer.

    Mr. Putney, I missed your reply to my on the last thread, so apologies for my tardy response.

    I read that Bottas actually suffered some sort of early problem (bad start, high graining, rubbish pit stop or suchlike) and was dead last at the end of the first few laps. Given he almost scored from there I think the demise of Williams is not close at hand.

    In addition, the car last year was very good. The team massively underperformed because Maldonado's erratic and malicious, and Senna was simply too slow.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Asking a silly Question alert ;-)


    If scotland went independant,I've always wondered,wouldn't a English government have some stake in the north sea oil fields,all wouldn't just turn 100% scottish ,would it ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,520
    Has the writ been fully moved for the by-election yet ?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Use of terms such as quasi-colonial indicate to me that beyond the claims of civic nationalism, there is soemthing nastier at work."

    I'm sorry, SO, but that's a load of drivel. I'll tell you what's nasty - voting against the Tories in overwhelming numbers (one member of parliament out of 59) and still getting a Tory government doing evil things to the most vulnerable in our society. And then seeing good people like you act as apologists for such quasi-colonial rule.

    Roll on September 2014.

    "Just as England had a party in power there from 2005 to 2010 that it did not vote for."

    What does that mean? England returned a clear majority of Labour MPs in 2005. If you're saying that the voting system didn't properly reflect the people's votes, that's the case in literally every general election.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    So does Marf think SS voters are sheep? ;)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,536
    TGOHF said:

    Scotland wants something for nothing shock.

    If you want to imagine the performance of the economy of Scotland post independence - see the football team. No Westminster interference for the Sfa - just poor raw materials, no vision and no answers.

    Better still just look across the water at NI, loads of self aggrandising wee men, who puff themselves up. do bugger all and just blame the english for their mistakes.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115

    "For IDS to ever gain any traction in places like that would take an absolute miracle."

    Thank Christ. If it takes smack-heads and doorless homes (that trusty Union Dividend again!) to spot that the coalition's welfare policies are inhuman, then bring on the smack-heads.

    Just so you know, I have no problem with the SNP or your desire to kill the Union. If the SNP can sort out what I saw then good luck to them. But Salmond will need ideas along the lines of IDS's to break the cycle of perpetual poverty. Otherwise the next generation will remain the same: addicted to benefits, unfit for work, condemned to a life of misery.

    Perhaps that first workless generation can point their fingers at the closure of the mines and the demise of manufacturing, citing depression as their reason not to work. But we are about three generations in now, and still a huge cycle of worklessness in these areas. Why are they blaming the Tories? Is it still their fault? Or are they sheltering in the comfort of their prejudices? Blaming the Tory bogeyman. The answer can be spotted in the bile of that shouty guy; the Tories only have one MP in Scotland. So why blame them?

    IDS is trying to change things (he will face mega-resistance, and will need to be brave and resolute, I accept that) and I commend him for it. The easier thing in the world would be to pay these poor people their benefits forever and forget about them - see the career of Gordon Brown. IDS, through a policy of making earning more via a job an incentive over earning less via no job, is taking the challenge on.

    And it's one of the biggest challenges facing our country.

    This is a subject close to my heart, because I know how embedded and pervasive the culture of benefit-addiction is - I live very near areas where its taken hold. That horrible, fleeting thought of having to get a job to end the pain of relative poverty can be easily drowned out by a few prescription valiums or eight lagers. And are we happy with that, really? Should we really leave these poor people to it for fear of being seen as evil oppressors of the hopeless? These areas of worklessness and benefit-addiction are synonymous with depression and lack of hope, a poverty of the soul. I think it is our duty as fellow citizens to help them, not condemn them. IDS understands that. And he understands there'll be no gain without pain. The hard bit will be conveying that to those who will be affected.

    Just like the anomaly of why dirt-poor people in America vote Republican (when Republicans couldn't give a monkeys toss about them) it remains an absolute mystery to me why the dirt-poor in the UK are programmed to vote for a Labour party who have never has plan or prospects for them other than to keep supplying endless benefits. Like the valium, the temporary comfort of a few quid for fags temporarily takes the problem away. I would've thought a vote for hope would trump a vote for endless depression every time, but no, Labour are still winning here.

    It just goes to show how sad and misguided many in these areas are.

    Next up, South Shields. More of the same please: a lifetime of depression and misery and nothing but a searing lack of hope.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @Southam

    Well, quite.

    Not to mention the fact that the government of the 'colonial' power has been stuffed full of Scottish politicians, including recently two Prime Ministers, two Chancellors, a whole string of Defence Ministers who put in place the Trident system which James K gets so indignant about, and so on.

    This hate-filled, grievance-driven irrationality is very odd and not very pleasant. One does have to keep reminding oneself that not all Scots are like James.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "If scotland went independant,I've always wondered,wouldn't a English government have some stake in the north sea oil fields,all wouldn't just turn 100% scottish ,would it ?"

    London would have a 100% stake in oil fields located in English waters, and a 0% stake in oil fields located in Scottish waters. It's a remarkably simple principle, but a constant source of befuddlement for the London media all the same.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Surely the response Boris should have had when Mair pressed him on whether he wanted to be PM would be to ask him if he wanted Andrew Marr's job full time?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "One does have to keep reminding oneself that not all Scots are like James."

    Luckily for the Yes campaign, though, most Tories are like Richard.

    Note for non-cretins - there has only been one Scottish Prime Minister since Douglas-Home, and his name was Gordon Brown. Tony Blair was not only English, he self-identified as English.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "And are we happy with that, really? Should we really leave these poor people to it for fear of being seen as evil oppressors of the hopeless?"

    No, evidently what we should do is the IDS approach, ie. take their benefits away and leave them to starve. Prosperity for all! Yay!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030
    Pulpstar said:

    Has the writ been fully moved for the by-election yet ?

    I'm not sure it can be is Parliament is not sitting and Miliband Sr is still MP.....

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924
    edited March 2013

    "Use of terms such as quasi-colonial indicate to me that beyond the claims of civic nationalism, there is soemthing nastier at work."

    I'm sorry, SO, but that's a load of drivel. I'll tell you what's nasty - voting against the Tories in overwhelming numbers (one member of parliament out of 59) and still getting a Tory government doing evil things to the most vulnerable in our society. And then seeing good people like you act as apologists for such quasi-colonial rule.

    Roll on September 2014.

    "Just as England had a party in power there from 2005 to 2010 that it did not vote for."

    What does that mean? England returned a clear majority of Labour MPs in 2005. If you're saying that the voting system didn't properly reflect the people's votes, that's the case in literally every general election.

    35% of Scots voted Tory or LibDem at the last election. That the voting system in UK general elections is not fit for purpose cannot alter that fact.

    Scotland is a constituent part of the UK by choice. Should Scotland decide to dissolve the Union its Parliament agreed to, then that will happen. There is nothing remotely colonial, quasi or otherwise, about that.

    To talk of colonialism feeds into a narrative of suppressed rights and occupation inflicted on Scotland by an alien force. Is that what civic nationalists really think? And if they do, how does that make them any different to xenophobic, right wing nationalists?

    Scotland is not oppressed. Scotland is not occupied. Scotland has full control over its future. Thus, Scotland is not a colony, quasi or otherwise.




  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    MikeK said:

    So does Marf think SS voters are sheep? ;)

    South Shields – an impressive beach – but not exactly renown for its sheep farming…!

    As to Marf’s allegorical inference then probably yes!
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The answer can be spotted in the bile of that shouty guy; the Tories only have one MP in Scotland. So why blame them?"

    Er, probably because they run the country in spite of having only one MP here? That, for the avoidance of doubt, is the meaning of the term "quasi-colonial".
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030

    Just as well the Pentland Firth's status as the Saudi Arabia of marine renewable potential is permanent, then.

    Oh dear, you're not quoting that world renown off-shore energy expert Alex Salmond again are you?

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Charles Moore raises a good point here:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/03/should-the-united-kingdom-become-an-independent-country/

    When we get our EU referendum, it would be a travesty if the question is placed in the context of what we are leaving rather than what we are gaining, after this Scottish precedent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,283
    Cyprus is starting to look as if it has been cured with all the skill and competence of a Mid Staffs medical team: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9956271/Cyprus-bailout-live.html

    The cure worked but the patient died, is that not how it goes? When even the FT today is picking up on a lot of anti euro sentiment in Cyprus you do wonder how long this can last.

    Vested interests in the euro debate such as the UKIPgraph will be stirring this up furiously. I somehow doubt that the UKIPgraph has a large readership in SS but such distressing coverage will bleed even on to the BBC and C4. Will it make a difference in the by election? It just might depend on how bad it gets.

    Certainly it is not a bad environment for UKIP and neither is the idiotic decisions of the European Parliament about the budget.
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    edited March 2013
    @JamesKelly probably because they run the country in spite of having only one MP here?

    So who did you blame when Labour were in power and when you had a Scottish PM (G.Brown)?
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Scotland is a constituent part of the UK by choice."

    No it is not. September 2014 will represent the first occasion that the people of Scotland have EVER been directly consulted on whether they wish to be a constituent part of the UK.

    "To talk of colonialism feeds into a narrative of suppressed rights and occupation inflicted on Scotland by an alien force. Is that what civic nationalists really think? And if they do, how does that make them any different to xenophobic, right wing nationalists?"

    Are you seriously saying that all anti-colonial movements constitute "xenophobic, right wing nationalism"? This isn't an argument with legs, I fear.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,283
    @RichardNabavi

    Just you keep remembering that Richard.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "The answer can be spotted in the bile of that shouty guy; the Tories only have one MP in Scotland. So why blame them?"

    Er, probably because they run the country in spite of having only one MP here? That, for the avoidance of doubt, is the meaning of the term "quasi-colonial".

    And Provence is run by socialists despite being conservative. It really isn't the meaning of the term quasi-colonial. It's the nature of democratic politics.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    TGOHF said:

    Scotland wants something for nothing shock.

    If you want to imagine the performance of the economy of Scotland post independence - see the football team. No Westminster interference for the Sfa - just poor raw materials, no vision and no answers.

    I don't think we should be judging the ability of the Scots to run their own economy by the performance of their national football team.

    James Kelly will quite properly point out that the proper comparison should be with Scotland's Womens Curling Team.

    On this basis we can confidently predict that Nicola Sturgeon will replace Alec Salmond as First Minister of Scotland following the independence referendum on 19th September 2014.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited March 2013
    LOL

    " Ed Miliband will have been troubled by the news of his brother David’s resignation. Not because he cares about him, but because it was yet more evidence that even top broadcasters still don’t know which Miliband is which.

    On Twitter, both BBC Radio 5 Live and LBC announced that Ed Miliband was quitting politics. For future reference: telling the Milibands apart is just like telling Ant & Dec apart. Ed’s always the one on the left.

    From those confident they knew the difference, tributes gushed in. Almost everyone in public life seemed to have a view. “One of the ablest, most creative public servants of our time,” declared Bill Clinton. “One of the most capable progressive thinkers and leaders globally,” announced Tony Blair. “A big loss for the Labour party,” said Max Clifford. “A parliamentary heavyweight,” said Justin Bieber. “British politics will seem that bit smaller,” said Pudsey the performing dog...

    Many of these admirers – known as “Dave-otees”, to distinguish them from their rival fans, the “Ed-cases” – wore T-shirts emblazoned with inspiring quotations from their hero’s speeches.

    “We Need to Use Public Sector Power as a Coherent Driver of the Private Sector Investment Equation,” read one T-shirt. “Imagine That We Didn’t Just Preach Subsidiarity in the Distribution of Power in Europe But Actually Practised It at Home,” read another. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9957311/Sketch-David-Miliband-a-nation-mourns.html
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "And Provence is run by socialists despite being conservative"

    Again, can you point me to an opinion poll showing that Provence wants a parliament with the kind of sweeping powers that the recent YouGov poll shows that Scotland wants?
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @DavidL - One does get a rather distorted picture here!

    Luckily some very close friends of mine are Scots, and I can dance a Reel of the 51st with the best of them!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,684
    well james - I don't believe the people of England have EVER been consulted about whether it wants a union with Scotland either- so Scotland is one up there then

    Oh please just vote for independence so we can stoip listening to whinging scots like yourself going on about colonialism and how its NOT FAIR -basically sod off and do your own thing and STOP WHINGING
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "One does get a rather distorted picture here!"

    You're telling me.

    "Luckily some very close friends of mine are Scots"

    Are any from the non-Tory majority, Richard?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,924

    "Scotland is a constituent part of the UK by choice."

    No it is not. September 2014 will represent the first occasion that the people of Scotland have EVER been directly consulted on whether they wish to be a constituent part of the UK.

    "To talk of colonialism feeds into a narrative of suppressed rights and occupation inflicted on Scotland by an alien force. Is that what civic nationalists really think? And if they do, how does that make them any different to xenophobic, right wing nationalists?"

    Are you seriously saying that all anti-colonial movements constitute "xenophobic, right wing nationalism"? This isn't an argument with legs, I fear.

    When were the Scottish people ever directly consulted about being a part of Scotland? After a few centuries you have to take it as read unless otherwise indictaed, I would have thought.

    The Scots have had the opportunity to vote for independence over the course of many years. And as soon as the SNP got a majority in the Scottish Parliament, the Scots got the chance to have a referendum. They could have voted for one previously, they chose not to. Just as they could have voted SNP in countless general elections, but chose not.

    No, I am not saying that all anti-colonial movements are about "xenophobic, right wing nationalism". I am saying 1. that Scotland is not a colony, quasi or otherwise, so the independence movement in Scotland cannot be considered an anti-colonial one (except inasmuch as it opposes colonialism in parts of the world where it does actually exist) and 2. that xenophobic, right-wing nationalism thrives on making ill-founded claims about oppressive outside forces denying a people its legitimate rights.
  • JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Oh please just vote for independence so we can stoip listening to whinging scots like yourself going on about colonialism and how its NOT FAIR -basically sod off and do your own thing and STOP WHINGING"

    The reactionary voice of the ages - outrage at evildoings by right-wing governments constitutes "whinging".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,283
    @RichardNabavi

    I love this bit from the Scottish Country Dancing Society website:

    "Captured, together with the vast majority of the British 51st (Highland) Division while defending the retreat from Dunkirk in 1940, Atkinson spent the rest of the war as a POW in Germany. His idea of a reel with a St Andrews cross in its key formation was intended to symbolise Scotland, and the Highland Division, in adversity.

    Atkinson's letter home with instructions for the dance was intercepted by the German security service, the Abwehr, who spent the rest of the war trying to break the code! However, another version of the dance reached Scotland where it was published while Atkinson was still a POW and became instantly popular."

    My grandfather was in the 51st and came home from Dunkirk with 1 trouser leg, the other having been blown off without injuring his leg, something I have never understood.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    "And Provence is run by socialists despite being conservative"

    Again, can you point me to an opinion poll showing that Provence wants a parliament with the kind of sweeping powers that the recent YouGov poll shows that Scotland wants?

    In all likelihood you're going to get such a parliament after 2014, when Scots vote to stay in the union and a new deal is negotiated. The negotiations have been put off because the matter of independence has to be decided first. But just because there are delays because of other political developments doesn't mean it's "quasi-colonialism". It's the democratic process. The whole "colonial" stuff in this case is just a pathetic victim complex, and it's also hugely insulting to the millions of people who genuinely lived under colonialism and didn't get any representation at all, let alone being over-represented in the national parliament.

    As Richard says, I have to continuously remind myself that you are an abnormal Scotsman. Most are reasonable, loyal Britons. If most were like you I'd be demanding a vote on Scottish independence myself so I could formally vote to tell you to sod off.

    Incidentally, in the extremely unlikely chance Scotland does vote for independence, I think it should be an utter imperative that we promise never to give you any financial aid in any future crisis.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,684
    edited March 2013
    james you sound like a cross between lenin and george bush with your evildoings

    I support you , you should be grateful , I just want Scotland to leave because I cannot stand whinging about its all England's fault and all that overhyped rubbish about colonialism -just vote yes and GO!! (take your rotten to the core banks with you as well)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited March 2013
    @JamesKelly,found this -

    Reality of the claim

    Given that Scotland is not a sovereign state, it has no effective maritime boundaries; and any claims Scotland may assert are subsumed as part of claims made by the United Kingdom. It could be argued that there is no definitive 'Scottish' sector of the North Sea in the same way there is a Norwegian sector or a Danish sector, or indeed a UK sector. However due to the existence of two separate legal systems in Great Britain — that of Scots law pertaining to Scotland and English law pertaining to England and Wales, constitutional law in the United Kingdom has provided for the division of the UK sector of the North Sea into specific Scottish and English components.[5] The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots law[6] meaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction

    If independance comes,scots law vs scotland had no maritime boundaries(uk)

    scotlands navy vs English navy to sort it out ;-)
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,684
    shoudl equals sound !! no edit on the new forum !!! Have to be more careful -its rotten as well!
  • NextNext Posts: 826

    shoudl equals sound !! no edit on the new forum !!! Have to be more careful -its rotten as well!

    Hover top-right of your comment for edit control.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030
    edited March 2013
    On the timing of the South Shields by-election, James Lansdale tweets:

    A South Shields by-election on May 2 might be tricky. Writ needs to be moved 3 weeks before and you can't do that during MPs' Easter hols.

    Commons back 15 April - earliest possible date 9th May......(and State Opening on the 8th...)

    ....I expect Miliband Sr thought about his timing very carefully.....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And for those who haven't already spotted it yet.

    RT @jason_manc: ONS just tweeted that it takes 3 years to fully know GDP. Long time considering implications of "dbl/triple dip" by fractions of a percent!
This discussion has been closed.