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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sturgeon’s game-plan? Replace LAB with CON by replacing C

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited March 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sturgeon’s game-plan? Replace LAB with CON by replacing CON with LAB

It’s been said that the creation of New Labour was indirectly Margaret Thatcher’s greatest achievement; that her government remodelled the whole political landscape so much that many of her policies were continued and developed not just by her own Conservative successor as PM but by the Labour one following him too.

Read the full story here


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  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015
    First ?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    There's some truth in that. But the replacement is the Greens. On current projections the Greens could be the third largest party in Scotland. If the SNP replace Labour and the Tories with another Independence Party... it's all over.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    In other words you agree - Miliband is a hypocrite. End of.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    felix said:

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    In other words you agree - Miliband is a hypocrite. End of.
    In other words, I don't think it will make any difference to the outcome of the general election. If Ed had stellar ratings, it might dent them, He doesn't; it won't.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    I am still slightly at a loss as to why organisations that exist to pool private capital and invest it in British business is a bad thing...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    If the Labour party believed in Social Democracy and not personal advancement they would disband. There are enough alternatives not tarnished by the Labour brand.

    Of course, all they want is personal advancement.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    Big day today for the polls. Another round of pro tory headlines [except the mail] so you'd think everything's going for the tories in the polls. Or will my budget misgivings prove right? Think this is a massive day that'll point to the election outcome.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Big day today for the polls. Another round of pro tory headlines [except the mail] so you'd think everything's going for the tories in the polls. Or will my budget misgivings prove right? Think this is a massive day that'll point to the election outcome.

    It takes time for news to percolate through to the polls. Usually a couple of weeks, so I would not expect much change.

    Though I think the polls will remain much the same until the election.

  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Indigo said:

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    I am still slightly at a loss as to why organisations that exist to pool private capital and invest it in British business is a bad thing...
    Where are you getting "British" from? This lot were long Gazprom.

    They are I think perceived as taking lots of short positions which is regarded (wrongly) as the financial equivalent of baby eating. Their main problem is actually underperforming and overcharging.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11487126/Hedge-fund-manager-revealed-to-be-top-Labour-donor.html

    "​While there is no suggestion the Labour Party has broken any rules​​, it faces charges that it is failing to live up to its professed commitment to transparency after refusing for days to confirm Mr Taylor’s identity.
    It is highly embarrassing for Mr Miliband has repeatedly attacked the Conservative Party’s dependence on donations from wealthy City figures.
    Mr Taylor has met Mr Miliband privately at least once, it is understood."

    " Indeed, it was a central charge of Mr Miliband’s response to George Osborne’s Budget. He told the Commons that the “stinking rich” Tories had refused to “act on hedge funds” because “they bankroll the Tory Party.”

    Hypocricy Hypocricy Hypocricy!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11485156/Unite-prepared-to-carry-out-illegal-strikes-if-Tories-win-election.html

    "Unite, one of Britain's biggest unions, has said that it is prepared to carry out illegal strikes if the Conservatives win the General Election."

    Over to you EdM.......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Big day today for the polls. Another round of pro tory headlines [except the mail] so you'd think everything's going for the tories in the polls. Or will my budget misgivings prove right? Think this is a massive day that'll point to the election outcome.

    It takes time for news to percolate through to the polls. Usually a couple of weeks, so I would not expect much change.

    Though I think the polls will remain much the same until the election.

    There's still no love for any of the parties. The campaign is unlikely to make any one party all loved up. It could make one or more of them further reviled. UKIP continuing to look like a bunch of clowns could be terminal to their hopes of making any break through.

    But there's no groundswell to "kick the bums out" either. Labour are not making that case. The decent economic news does mean there is something at risk if people elect a Labour Govt. - their jobs, their hard-won rise in living standards. There is nothing on the other side of the scales in Labour's favour to make that risk worth taking.

    I suspect a lot of people chewing it over will, on the walk to the polling stations, decide it is not Buggins' turn in 2015. And it could be as late as that. Labour to get caned in Scotland. LibDems to have a woeful time everywhere. Otherwise, not much change in England and Wales as between Labour and the Tories. Cameron comfortably stays in Number 10.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious Scottish Conservatives are at Holyrood too?

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706



    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.

    So that rules out the current Tories then.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025



    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious Scottish Conservatives are at Holyrood too?

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    120 minutes 120 seconds
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Ishmael_X said:

    Indigo said:

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    I am still slightly at a loss as to why organisations that exist to pool private capital and invest it in British business is a bad thing...
    Where are you getting "British" from? This lot were long Gazprom.

    They are I think perceived as taking lots of short positions which is regarded (wrongly) as the financial equivalent of baby eating. Their main problem is actually underperforming and overcharging.
    They under perform and overcharge their investor, not the public, as with buying any service caveat emptor. Anyone who thinks short positions are bad in financially illiterate, they are necessary to preserve liquidity and mitigate risk, stop people taking short positions and they will dramatically scale back their long positions. Even if some of them do invest in foreign equity, who cares, its private money.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited March 2015

    Big day today for the polls. Another round of pro tory headlines [except the mail] so you'd think everything's going for the tories in the polls. Or will my budget misgivings prove right? Think this is a massive day that'll point to the election outcome.

    It takes time for news to percolate through to the polls. Usually a couple of weeks, so I would not expect much change.

    Though I think the polls will remain much the same until the election.

    There's still no love for any of the parties. The campaign is unlikely to make any one party all loved up. It could make one or more of them further reviled. UKIP continuing to look like a bunch of clowns could be terminal to their hopes of making any break through.

    But there's no groundswell to "kick the bums out" either. Labour are not making that case. The decent economic news does mean there is something at risk if people elect a Labour Govt. - their jobs, their hard-won rise in living standards. There is nothing on the other side of the scales in Labour's favour to make that risk worth taking.

    I suspect a lot of people chewing it over will, on the walk to the polling stations, decide it is not Buggins' turn in 2015. And it could be as late as that. Labour to get caned in Scotland. LibDems to have a woeful time everywhere. Otherwise, not much change in England and Wales as between Labour and the Tories. Cameron comfortably stays in Number 10.
    I am forecasting "no change" for any of the 10 Leicester/Leics seats. If that is typical for other parts of the midlands then I cannot see Labour making enough gains to make up in England for the Scottish losses. There will be some (and I hope that Nick gets Broxtowe) but probably no more than fifty, and maybe less than that.

    It would put Labour on a maximum of about 275, not enough to form a stable government, though with the Tories on much the same, little stability there either.

    The recovery is palpable in the midlands. There is none of the mass unemployment of the eighties. Shops, bars and eateries are all busy. Decent housing is some of the most affordable in the country. I just do not see the groundswell to "kick the buggers out" that is needed in order for Miliband to win the 90ish seats needed to form a solo government.



  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    DavidL said:



    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:


    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.

    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    The implication is that nationalism trumps right-wingism, and right wingers disproportionally moved to the SNP on the basis of independence compared to the left, or possibly right-wingers are more nationalistically inclined than the left.

    Plus of course its Fatcha innit, even though half of the current Scotland wasn't born when she was in power.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
    Conservative and Unionist Party believes in the union, someone pass that arboreal bear the toilet paper.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Indigo said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
    Conservative and Unionist Party believes in the union, someone pass that arboreal bear the toilet paper.
    Well they singularly failed to present a right wing case for the union.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
    Well, 26% voted against Devolution. And the Tories are pretty strong in Wales, despite opposing Devolution.

  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all and another good thread Herders. The only thing I would disagree with is that Nicola Sturgeon needs a Labour government at Westminster.

    If the SNP all but wipes out SLAB in 47 days time and the SCons stage a mini-recovery by winning the odd seat on split votes and recovering former Tory voters who have gone LibDem or SNP, then next year we could see SNP with a comfortable majority at Holyrood and the Tories threatening Labour for 2nd place. As the LibDems already only hold 5 seats, they can be ignored in this context. The SCons would need to start winning back natural Tory territory like Edinburgh Pentlands, Eastwood, West Aberdeenshire and of course Dumfries, the only missing piece across the South of Scotland.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    nt.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    They should rebrand as the Progressive Party which doesn't tie them into permanent Unionism and harks back to the Unionist bloc in Local Government. But they've rejected this, Murdo had it on the cards and the Tories said no, they are fully bought in to Westminster domination.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
    Well, 26% voted against Devolution. And the Tories are pretty strong in Wales, despite opposing Devolution.

    Tories should have seized devolution rather than opposing it and arguing in effect for a big centralised state.

    No wonder Right wing Scots don't trust Tories. The Tories don't trust them.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Cracking thesis. The bind ed will be in with the SNP tacitly supporting him in Westminster for a year in order to crucify him more painfully in Holyrood will be awesome to behold.

    Looking at Sturgeon's Land Reform Bill I don't think she is going to be shy about shifting the SNP leftwards.

    And like it or not, Salmond's political achievements in putting the SNP where they are today already make him a colossus of Thatcher-like proportions, and we haven't really started yet. Memo to PBTories: yebbut the oil price is no answer to this point.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious Scottish Conservatives are at Holyrood too?

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.

    "Popular" Scottish Tory leaders didn't start with Davidson. Anabel Goldie was a phenomenal leader for the Scottish Tories but despite her appeal, competence, influence on the minority SNP government and delivery of policy, the Tory vote went.... nowhere. She also had a much better fit for traditional pensioner Tories (as she basically was one).

    If Goldie couldn't do it, Davidson can't. There will be no revival of the Tories till they drop the Tory brand, it is toxic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    NZ through and a quite unbelievable performance from Martin Guptil 237 out of 393. Quite, quite amazing.

    The reason that I think NZ are going to win this however is that they not only bat like gods, they take wickets. When the runs are on the board and the pressure is on that is the difference.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:



    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    So called right wingers attack devolved powers and wonder why no one votes for them.
    Well, 26% voted against Devolution. And the Tories are pretty strong in Wales, despite opposing Devolution.

    The "natural right" is generally smarter and better educated with a much better understanding of economics. As such it is no surprise that over half the expected 40% Tory vote is with the SNP.

    Until the Loyalists get an argument which isn't based on economic illiteracy then they will not get any of them back.

    Or better still, reject Unionism as part of the right and support Independence as the Progressive Party.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    DavidL said:




    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.

    David I often get accused of being out of touch but I think you are making the same mistake many of our opponents do. Young people do not join things but that does not mean they do not support things. Many wouldn't be seen dead in Constituency Associations and who can blame them. However our presence in the universities and colleges with CF groups is really encouraging and all over Scotland today, groups of party activists and supporters will be out canvassing and working. You can get an idea of where they are campaigning from the tweets they post during the day.

    I have been particularly impressed by the campaign team which is working its way round the Glasgow constituencies and was in my old seat Glasgow East last week.

    Ruth Davidson has been addressing packed halls at meetings the length and breadth of Scotland. Over 100 attended her meeting in Dingwall to support Lindsey MacCallum. It's 20 years since I can remember that many local Tory supporters gathering in one place at the same time.

    Gone are the days of associations with thousands of members. The one big problem the SNP is going to face is motivate its 90,000 new members to actually go out and do something during the GE. It is pretty easy to pay £10 for a shiny membership card, go to a leader's rally where you can drink coke and eat popcorn and buy a few balloons and key fobs. It is quite another getting them to pound the streets canvassing and delivering leaflets.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    They should rebrand as the Progressive Party which doesn't tie them into permanent Unionism and harks back to the Unionist bloc in Local Government. But they've rejected this, Murdo had it on the cards and the Tories said no, they are fully bought in to Westminster domination.
    I think they rejected Murdo rather than the idea. I think the idea is right even if the "progressives" have a CDU type arrangement with the Tories at Westminster. I hope once May is out the way things will start to move. Scotland really can't live with 2 parties competing as to who is the most left wing and no alternative.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Indigo said:
    That is really cruel. Funny, but cruel.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Ishmael_X said:

    Cracking thesis. The bind ed will be in with the SNP tacitly supporting him in Westminster for a year in order to crucify him more painfully in Holyrood will be awesome to behold.

    Looking at Sturgeon's Land Reform Bill I don't think she is going to be shy about shifting the SNP leftwards.

    And like it or not, Salmond's political achievements in putting the SNP where they are today already make him a colossus of Thatcher-like proportions, and we haven't really started yet. Memo to PBTories: yebbut the oil price is no answer to this point.

    The Land Reform Bill is a LIBERTARIAN right wing policy that is greatly overdue.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    nt.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



    That's a general, rather than Scotland-specific problem. Overall, SME owners are still pretty Conservative, although public sector professionals have turned away from them. Outside Scotland, the Tories have managed to grow their working class support (at least until UKIP appeared).

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited March 2015
    Ya gorra larf.... Major Labour Party donor is an Evil Hedge Fund boy..What the hell will EdM bang on about at the next PMQ,s
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Off topic, but an important observation from someone who has no motive to lie and who is well-placed to judge:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31996184

    I firmly believe that the next government will be a minority Labour government or a minority Conservative government, and much more likely the former.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    nt.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



    That's a general, rather than Scotland-specific problem. Overall, SME owners are still pretty Conservative, although public sector professionals have turned away from them. Outside Scotland, the Tories have managed to grow their working class support (at least until UKIP appeared).

    It was the Tories that turned away from public sector professionals.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_X said:

    Indigo said:

    felix said:
    Shocking. Will it make people less likely to vote Labour? A few, perhaps. Will it make people more likely to vote Conservative? Unlikely, because if hedge fund funding is abhorrent, the Tories have more of it. Small earthquake in Chile, methinks.
    I am still slightly at a loss as to why organisations that exist to pool private capital and invest it in British business is a bad thing...
    Where are you getting "British" from? This lot were long Gazprom.

    They are I think perceived as taking lots of short positions which is regarded (wrongly) as the financial equivalent of baby eating. Their main problem is actually underperforming and overcharging.
    Nevsky's quite an odd one (for the record, I don't know Martin Taylor, but I do know someone who used to work closely with him & speaks highly of him).

    They started out as a hedge fund (originally called Thames River). They then pivoted towards emerging markets and made out like bandits during the boom. As a result, they returned all outside capital and are now basically just Martin's family office...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    DavidL said:

    Dair said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    They should rebrand as the Progressive Party which doesn't tie them into permanent Unionism and harks back to the Unionist bloc in Local Government. But they've rejected this, Murdo had it on the cards and the Tories said no, they are fully bought in to Westminster domination.
    I think they rejected Murdo rather than the idea. I think the idea is right even if the "progressives" have a CDU type arrangement with the Tories at Westminster. I hope once May is out the way things will start to move. Scotland really can't live with 2 parties competing as to who is the most left wing and no alternative.
    I'm not at all confident they will move.

    They are called Conservatives for a reason.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    DavidL said:

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.
    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.
    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    I think that is a difficult question to answer. SLAB were incredibly successful in demonising the Tories after Thatcher. The Tories lost their Scottish voice and statist Scotland (which is much bigger than its English equivalent) felt threatened and rejected by them. My neighbour, for example, is a senior consultant on very good money. He used to vote tory but certainly does not do so now. I do not think the current brand can regain people like that.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    I think that DH is right in that the more capable SNP politicians went to Holyrood, for the other parties they went to Westminster, and that is what has shifted the tectonic plates against Labour and the Lib Dems.

    The Scottish Tories seem to be holding up rather better, with a vote share unchanged. The Scottish Conservatives also had the best Indy ref campaign, being united in a position and emphatically winning.

    Ruth Davidson seems a very capable and distinctive leader. I wonder if the near total loss of Westminster representation for Scottish Tories has meant that the more able and ambitious Scottish Conservatives are at Holyrood too?

    Are there any other rising stars in the Scottish Conservatives?

    I appreciate that Scotland has changed a lot since the fifties when most MPs were Conservative, but I would have thought that there must be an electoral place for a party of traditional values of thrift, industry, work ethic and self-improvement.

    "Popular" Scottish Tory leaders didn't start with Davidson. Anabel Goldie was a phenomenal leader for the Scottish Tories but despite her appeal, competence, influence on the minority SNP government and delivery of policy, the Tory vote went.... nowhere. She also had a much better fit for traditional pensioner Tories (as she basically was one).

    If Goldie couldn't do it, Davidson can't. There will be no revival of the Tories till they drop the Tory brand, it is toxic.
    I agree. The decline of the party dates back to before Thatcher. I would date it to the 1965 merger with the Conservative party of the rest of the UK, though possibly that was a symptom rather than the cause.

    It is worth noting that even in 1992, that is after a decade of Thatcher, there were still a dozen Scottish Conservative MPs. Either Thatcher was not as toxic as she is popularly supposed to be, or there is a lag of more than a decade for the effects to show. If so then there may well be a similar lag before any resurgence.

    The 2011 Holyrood elections will be interesting. Will SLAB repair itself? Will the SLDs? Will Sturgeon fall back under a tide of PR and dislike of a centralist and socialist agenda?
  • The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    edited March 2015

    Big day today for the polls. Another round of pro tory headlines [except the mail] so you'd think everything's going for the tories in the polls. Or will my budget misgivings prove right? Think this is a massive day that'll point to the election outcome.

    It takes time for news to percolate through to the polls. Usually a couple of weeks, so I would not expect much change.

    Though I think the polls will remain much the same until the election.

    It's not C17th reliant on stagecoaches and pigeons! News spreads globally in nanoseconds now. 4 days is plenty. If there's no tory uptick tonight then the budget's a balls up.

    Osborne should've cut income tax. I don't think people care v much about the national debt. We're all used to living in debt and most people don't want 5 more years austerity. That's my prediction anyway.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.

    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



    That's a general, rather than Scotland-specific problem. Overall, SME owners are still pretty Conservative, although public sector professionals have turned away from them. Outside Scotland, the Tories have managed to grow their working class support (at least until UKIP appeared).

    All the political parties are trying the same trick, and all slowly being found out. The LDs were famously "Cuddly Conservatives" in southern seats, and "Responsible Labour" in northern seats. In the same way the Tories were trying to be social liberals in the leafier seats and patriotic traditionalists in the WVM areas. Labour was trying to be Guardianista in the nice bit of London and pro-Union socialists in the north.

    They are all being rumbled, especially as they get into government, the Red LDs left for Labour and the Greens, and the social conservative vote left for the kippers. The Old Labour vote mostly left for the kippers, and the NOTA vote decided that the LDs were in fact OOTA and fragmented who knows where.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    We wouldn't waste time arguing about how to revive Ratners. The Scottish Conservatives need to be wound up and all links with the English party broken. The concept of a Scottish Unionist party might have some legs, but a Scottish Federalist Party might do better.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:



    The Tories did well with Ruth although curiously her main opponent was pushing ideas similar to those I set out. Holyrood has been a godsend to them in some respects because the list system allowed them to get elected. But the party is small and old, a remenent of better times, so Ruth has her work cut out. As I have said I think some rebranding is going to be an important part of the mix. The toxicity of the Tories amongst middle class professionals in Scotland who should be natural supporters is profound and needs to be overcome.

    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.
    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



    That's a general, rather than Scotland-specific problem. Overall, SME owners are still pretty Conservative, although public sector professionals have turned away from them. Outside Scotland, the Tories have managed to grow their working class support (at least until UKIP appeared).

    All the political parties are trying the same trick, and all slowly being found out. The LDs were famously "Cuddly Conservatives" in southern seats, and "Responsible Labour" in northern seats. In the same way the Tories were trying to be social liberals in the leafier seats and patriotic traditionalists in the WVM areas. Labour was trying to be Guardianista in the nice bit of London and pro-Union socialists in the north.

    They are all being rumbled, especially as they get into government, the Red LDs left for Labour and the Greens, and the social conservative vote left for the kippers. The Old Labour vote mostly left for the kippers, and the NOTA vote decided that the LDs were in fact OOTA and fragmented who knows where.
    You forget that the kippers are doing it too. Libertarian in the stockbroker belt, but pro-NHS and anti "bedroom tax" in the North.
  • PurseybearPurseybear Posts: 766
    I'll go further. I think the budget demonstrated what a lot of us suspect - that tory toffs don't understand common man. We wanted a bit back, an easing off now we're "walking tall". Osborne should've cut income tax more than clearing the national debt. Politically anyway. And this is politics not economics. The economy will bounce along okay now. Which is another of the tory headaches. Lots of people will think there's only so much damage Labour can do in 5 years.

    But I'll admit I've misjudged Cameron and Osborne for two years so they may have played a blinder & I'll be wrong. I just can't see it at the moment.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.

    Which is kind of ironic considering how centralising and authoritarian the Greens policy platform is.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015

    I agree. The decline of the party dates back to before Thatcher. I would date it to the 1965 merger with the Conservative party of the rest of the UK, though possibly that was a symptom rather than the cause.

    It is worth noting that even in 1992, that is after a decade of Thatcher, there were still a dozen Scottish Conservative MPs. Either Thatcher was not as toxic as she is popularly supposed to be, or there is a lag of more than a decade for the effects to show. If so then there may well be a similar lag before any resurgence.

    The 2011 Holyrood elections will be interesting. Will SLAB repair itself? Will the SLDs? Will Sturgeon fall back under a tide of PR and dislike of a centralist and socialist agenda?

    There are a lot of aspects of Scottish civic society which are societally progressive and liberal while being economically right wing and libertarian. The Tories remain a very, very socially conservative party and if you are right of centre, the SNP offer a much better alternative if you want to see social liberalism policy implemented in a reasonably positive business environment.

    That;s not changed under Sturgeon and isn't going to change any time soon. As long as the SNP can offer Social Democracy as a goal of independence while delivering Economic Liberalism they will draw support from both sides.

    As for SLAB in 2016, not a hope in hell of any recovery.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    antifrank said:

    Off topic, but an important observation from someone who has no motive to lie and who is well-placed to judge:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31996184

    I firmly believe that the next government will be a minority Labour government or a minority Conservative government, and much more likely the former.

    I have had a tough week in court but hugely enjoyed your "evidence led policy" comment yesterday when I caught up with it. Extremely funny.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I'll go further. I think the budget demonstrated what a lot of us suspect - that tory toffs don't understand common man. We wanted a bit back, an easing off now we're "walking tall". Osborne should've cut income tax more than clearing the national debt. Politically anyway. And this is politics not economics. The economy will bounce along okay now. Which is another of the tory headaches. Lots of people will think there's only so much damage Labour can do in 5 years.

    But I'll admit I've misjudged Cameron and Osborne for two years so they may have played a blinder & I'll be wrong. I just can't see it at the moment.

    The deficit this year will be just under eighty billion pounds. Osborne isn't paying off any debt. There's still no money.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do the Conservatives have this problem? You'd think that in any part of the country, there'd be at least 25% or so prepared to vote for a right wing party.

    Since Baldwin transformed the party in the 20's the core of the Conservative party has been the small businessman, and the middle class professionals. There are simply not enough upper class people to win an election with a wide franchise.

    While we do have a lot of SME's these have evolved since the days of Councillor Roberts in Grantham. The SMEs are often run by ethnic minorities and the middle class professionals often work for what Gove called "the blob". Neither are the natural Tories they once were, though neither are inevitably hostile either.

    I saw my first election poster this week. It was a Tory one for Leicester city council for the wards of North and South Evington. All six candidates were Hindus. Times are changing.



    That's a general, rather than Scotland-specific problem. Overall, SME owners are still pretty Conservative, although public sector professionals have turned away from them. Outside Scotland, the Tories have managed to grow their working class support (at least until UKIP appeared).

    All the political parties are trying the same trick, and all slowly being found out. The LDs were famously "Cuddly Conservatives" in southern seats, and "Responsible Labour" in northern seats. In the same way the Tories were trying to be social liberals in the leafier seats and patriotic traditionalists in the WVM areas. Labour was trying to be Guardianista in the nice bit of London and pro-Union socialists in the north.

    They are all being rumbled, especially as they get into government, the Red LDs left for Labour and the Greens, and the social conservative vote left for the kippers. The Old Labour vote mostly left for the kippers, and the NOTA vote decided that the LDs were in fact OOTA and fragmented who knows where.
    You forget that the kippers are doing it too. Libertarian in the stockbroker belt, but pro-NHS and anti "bedroom tax" in the North.
    Indeed, but like the LDs the voters wont notice until they are close to being in a government, or possibly not until they join a coalition.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.

    I think you are spot on here. The Greens need to form some sort of relationship with the SSP and Solidarity. If they can manage that, perhaps even going so far as to bring Tommy Swingerdan and Colin Fox on board, they could utterly finish Labour forever in Scotland.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    antifrank said:

    We wouldn't waste time arguing about how to revive Ratners. The Scottish Conservatives need to be wound up and all links with the English party broken. The concept of a Scottish Unionist party might have some legs, but a Scottish Federalist Party might do better.

    Do the Scottish Conservatives have a devo-max shopping list? If so then a federalist party would have a lot of potential. Most Scots wanted devo-max (indeed the Yes campaign acknowledged this with its farcical currency union position).
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    antifrank said:

    We wouldn't waste time arguing about how to revive Ratners. The Scottish Conservatives need to be wound up and all links with the English party broken. The concept of a Scottish Unionist party might have some legs, but a Scottish Federalist Party might do better.

    Bad analogy. Ratners became the largest online jewellery retailer in the UK around a decade ago according to Gerald Ratner.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    antifrank said:

    We wouldn't waste time arguing about how to revive Ratners. The Scottish Conservatives need to be wound up and all links with the English party broken. The concept of a Scottish Unionist party might have some legs, but a Scottish Federalist Party might do better.

    Strong support for Federalism was part of Murdo's plan for decoupling the Tories.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    I'll go further. I think the budget demonstrated what a lot of us suspect - that tory toffs don't understand common man. We wanted a bit back, an easing off now we're "walking tall". Osborne should've cut income tax more than clearing the national debt. Politically anyway. And this is politics not economics. The economy will bounce along okay now. Which is another of the tory headaches. Lots of people will think there's only so much damage Labour can do in 5 years.

    But I'll admit I've misjudged Cameron and Osborne for two years so they may have played a blinder & I'll be wrong. I just can't see it at the moment.

    If the public think that they are wrong, we are still going to be paying the equivalent of the Education budget every year in debt interest, and that is while the markets are feeling generous and don't have anywhere better to put their money. If the markets get the jitters because, to take an example out of thin air, Miliband gets elected, and our interest rates go to 4-5% not 1.8% like they are now, and the interest costs more than we are spending on the NHS, this country is in deep sh1t. Claiming that things are going well because we are currently benefiting from market conditions we largely can't control is foolhardy in the extreme.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited March 2015
    The Lefties on PB will talk about anything today in order to deflect attention away from EdM,s large donor One of the Evil Hedge Fund boys..how many poor people have been ripped off to pay for the donation... we need to know..
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.

    Morning Alan, are you suffering from isolationism up there in the empty hall in Aberdeen? The Greens have never been more than a fringe party in Scotland. Patrick Harvey is seen as being that nice wee, slightly fruitbat leftie. The SCons already have 3 times as many MSPs as the LibDems and if Labour's vote shrinks dramatically in 47 days time, all bets are off for Holyrood 2016.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The Lefties on PB will talk about anything today in order to deflect attention away from EdM,s large donor One of the Evil Hedge Fund boys..how many poor people have been ripped off to pay for the donation... we need to know..

    None. Hedge funds invest private capital.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    BBC News website does not appear to be covering the story about Ed's Hedge Fund Manager mate and his donation. Just saying.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indigo said:

    I'll go further. I think the budget demonstrated what a lot of us suspect - that tory toffs don't understand common man. We wanted a bit back, an easing off now we're "walking tall". Osborne should've cut income tax more than clearing the national debt. Politically anyway. And this is politics not economics. The economy will bounce along okay now. Which is another of the tory headaches. Lots of people will think there's only so much damage Labour can do in 5 years.

    But I'll admit I've misjudged Cameron and Osborne for two years so they may have played a blinder & I'll be wrong. I just can't see it at the moment.

    If the public think that they are wrong, we are still going to be paying the equivalent of the Education budget every year in debt interest, and that is while the markets are feeling generous and don't have anywhere better to put their money. If the markets get the jitters because, to take an example out of thin air, Miliband gets elected, and our interest rates go to 4-5% not 1.8% like they are now, and the interest costs more than we are spending on the NHS, this country is in deep sh1t. Claiming that things are going well because we are currently benefiting from market conditions we largely can't control is foolhardy in the extreme.
    I think the budget was very well designed. No eyecatching pasty tax to go wrong. Not a single thing that Balls wants to reverse.

    The Shadow Chancellor a little over a month away from the General Election has conceeded that coalition economic policy is right. The two Eds are not on good terms, but that must have gone down like a cup of cold sick with the activists.

    The place for Osborne to show a bit of tax cutting leg is in the manifesto. The message will be "vote Conservative if you want tax cuts, Labour tax bombshell mark 2"
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.

    Morning Alan, are you suffering from isolationism up there in the empty hall in Aberdeen? The Greens have never been more than a fringe party in Scotland. Patrick Harvey is seen as being that nice wee, slightly fruitbat leftie. The SCons already have 3 times as many MSPs as the LibDems and if Labour's vote shrinks dramatically in 47 days time, all bets are off for Holyrood 2016.
    You haven't looked at any of the Holyrood VI then? The Greens may well be the third largest party in 2016.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited March 2015
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history of time.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    I think the budget was very well designed. No eyecatching pasty tax to go wrong. Not a single thing that Balls wants to reverse.

    The Shadow Chancellor a little over a month away from the General Election has conceeded that coalition economic policy is right. The two Eds are not on good terms, but that must have gone down like a cup of cold sick with the activists.

    The place for Osborne to show a bit of tax cutting leg is in the manifesto. The message will be "vote Conservative if you want tax cuts, Labour tax bombshell mark 2"

    Economically the budget was pretty damn good. A decent steady hand on the rudder although I'm sure everyone will find his ridiculous lack of Smoothing for political capital to be dumb. But he wouldn't have to stick to that.

    Morally, he said exactly what should be said in every pre-election budget. He refused to offer bribes (at least to offer out loud - he obviously had some small bribes in there).

    But the outcome - it's clearly failed. At the end of the day the English electorate don't care about long term economic plans or confident economic management. They just want free stuff paid for, as always, by Scotland.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Good morning, everyone.

    A short, eclipse-themed story, by me is up here:
    http://www.kraxon.com/darkness-falls/

    Tons of rugby today, though I agree with those who say it's not especially fair to have it timed for TV.

    On the other hand, you could argue life isn't fair.

    Just about finished Marc Morris' A Great and Terrible King [Edward I bio]. I'd recommend it for those interested in that sort of thing, even if you don't know much about the period.

    And yes, Miliband is an utter arse. The Conservatives should be clear in attacking his hypocrisy.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015
    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history on time ever.
    Still not happened to the Kuomintang in Taiwan or the ANC despite quite a few pretty big Black Swans over the years. Only cost the Lib Dems in Japan 3 years or so in the last 80. CSU have run Bavaria since 1957. Sure, they might decide to f*ck up but realistically, given what you've seen of the SNP party machine, do you really think that will happen before Independence?

    That's the thing, the great beauty of the SNP. Their fundamental ethos FORCES good government on Scotland.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    antifrank said:

    Off topic, but an important observation from someone who has no motive to lie and who is well-placed to judge:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31996184

    I firmly believe that the next government will be a minority Labour government or a minority Conservative government, and much more likely the former.

    Surely there is an irony in all this. The Lib Dems, a party who's raison d'etre was to bring some kind of proportional voting system to the house of commons, so that no party could gain a majority by itself, rejects the whole concept of a coalition after five years of been part of one!
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Just about finished Marc Morris' A Great and Terrible King [Edward I bio]. I'd recommend it for those interested in that sort of thing, even if you don't know much about the period.

    Sounds like a horrible man!
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited March 2015
    Dair said:

    But the outcome - it's clearly failed. At the end of the day the English electorate don't care about long term economic plans or confident economic management. They just want free stuff paid for, as always, by Scotland.

    Almost.

    They want free stuff from where ever, Scotland if it is convenient, but the Magic Money Tree, or from taxes on people that earn more money than they do, or have more rooms in their hour, or more letters in their name, really they don't care, they just want, it's depressing.

    The pervading message in our culture for a generation is that you dont have to do anything to be successful, or at least to be paid. In school is "prizes for all" even if you can't be bothered, or don't try. When you leave school you get money for sitting at home playing on your xbox. Families of kids have now grown up where both their parents and grandparents living on the dole, and have no role model for productive work and a sense of entitlement for being paid to sit on their arse. We have a whole generation of people that don't understand that in the real world you sometimes don't get prizes unless you work hard, and some times not even then.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Indigo said:

    The Lefties on PB will talk about anything today in order to deflect attention away from EdM,s large donor One of the Evil Hedge Fund boys..how many poor people have been ripped off to pay for the donation... we need to know..

    None. Hedge funds invest private capital.
    That's pretty much his point.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    notme said:

    antifrank said:

    Off topic, but an important observation from someone who has no motive to lie and who is well-placed to judge:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31996184

    I firmly believe that the next government will be a minority Labour government or a minority Conservative government, and much more likely the former.

    Surely there is an irony in all this. The Lib Dems, a party who's raison d'etre was to bring some kind of proportional voting system to the house of commons, so that no party could gain a majority by itself, rejects the whole concept of a coalition after five years of been part of one!
    No, the great irony of the Lib Dems is that after 80 years of demanding a PR system, finally got in a position of power where they could have demanded it. Then turned their back on PR in favour biasing FPTP to the benefit of the third largest party.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history on time ever.
    Still not happened to the Kuomintang in Taiwan or the ANC despite quite a few pretty big Black Swans over the years. Only cost the Lib Dems in Japan 3 years or so in the last 80. CSU have run Bavaria since 1957. Sure, they might decide to f*ck up but realistically, given what you've seen of the SNP party machine, do you really think that will happen before Independence?

    That's the thing, the great beauty of the SNP. Their fundamental ethos FORCES good government on Scotland.
    But more devolution of tax and spending to Scotland will expose those fault lines.

    Likely to go well as long as the recovery continues, as a rising tide floats all boats, but when the economic cycle fades then the stresses will be manifest.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Mr. Dair, not sure the ANC's the best example to follow given problems over crime, energy supply, AIDS, corruption and so forth. What happens when they stop walking to electoral victories could be rather bad (in the South Africa Question Time special, it's my understanding that Zimbabwe-style land acquisition was a popular suggestion).

    What would be interesting, in a dramatic sort of way, would be if there is independence following a 'proper vote' [ie not some unilateral declaration], and the Scottish economy is hit catastrophically hard due to lack of currency union, financial services fleeing south, and bilateral trade falling off a cliff (NB I know you don't think that would happen should independence occur).

    Would Scots blame the SNP? My guess is they might blame the English, and the SNP might, electorally, be alright.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Dair said:

    The Scottish Greens would overtake SLAB before the Conservatives would. The Greens, so long as they keep out of power, are a nice safe haven for pro-Independence people unhappy with the SNP's centralising, authoritarian agenda.

    I think you are spot on here. The Greens need to form some sort of relationship with the SSP and Solidarity. If they can manage that, perhaps even going so far as to bring Tommy Swingerdan and Colin Fox on board, they could utterly finish Labour forever in Scotland.
    While it's possible that Scottish Labour could be shattered by a combination of a far-left Green Socialist movement, a left-wing SNP and a centre-left Liberal Democrat Party, (1) it won't happen for several years because the Lib Dems are toxic and in the meantime there's nowhere for moderate left-of-centre pro-union voters to go, (2) the Tories should still be guaranteed a mid-teens score at least in those circumstances given the dearth of centre-right alternatives, which is likely to be more than the other two opposition parties and (3) there remains a culturally died-in-the-wool Labour vote, which might be smaller than it once was but remains there nonetheless and will take years to erode completely, even if it's no longer big enough to win seats on its own any more.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Dair said:

    notme said:

    antifrank said:

    Off topic, but an important observation from someone who has no motive to lie and who is well-placed to judge:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31996184

    I firmly believe that the next government will be a minority Labour government or a minority Conservative government, and much more likely the former.

    Surely there is an irony in all this. The Lib Dems, a party who's raison d'etre was to bring some kind of proportional voting system to the house of commons, so that no party could gain a majority by itself, rejects the whole concept of a coalition after five years of been part of one!
    No, the great irony of the Lib Dems is that after 80 years of demanding a PR system, finally got in a position of power where they could have demanded it. Then turned their back on PR in favour biasing FPTP to the benefit of the third largest party.
    Just in time to become the fifth largest party :D
  • The two party system (Lab/Con) does not operate in Northern Ireland and few English based commentators seem to have noticed that it does not work here in Scotland either. Conservative has been a toxic brand in Scotland for some years (1 MP) and Labour is about to go the same way. This is looking like a trend not a blip. If the two main brands cannot command an overall majority over the whole UK then coalitions may be the future and FPTP is not a good way forward. The Scottish Greens now have 7 times the members they had last year and over the UK the Greens are looking a lot stronger than the LibDems.

    To summarise Con and Lab have lost their way in significant areas of the UK and it is possible that we may not see an overall majority for one party again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece. I pointed out yesterday that there is a marked difference of approach between Salmond and Sturgeon. Salmond was focussed on independence. He was reluctant to take ideological positions because he recognised that Nationalism is not a left/right thing and he wanted to keep everyone on board. This made the SNP vulnerable to the tartan Tories tag but also gave them their first breakthrough in seats as the Tories waned in Scotland. Until now most SNP seats have been ex Tory seats.

    Sturgeon, building on their period in office has rejected that. She wants the SNP to be a left leaning social Democratic Party that essentially replaces the Labour Party in Scotland.



    Will this ultimately produce a revival of the Tories and the recovery of seats like Angus, North Perthshire and Gordon? Maybe and if so I think it is a price that she is willing to pay to dominate the Central belt and hence Scottish politics.

    To take full advantage of this opportunity I think the Tories need to rebrand themselves in a way that also allows them to pick up the detritus of Scottish Liberalism. Maybe they should be calling themselves the Unionist party. Just a thought.

    David, until they get a backbone and stop being a London sock puppet club only for rich duffers they will go nowhere. Lot of opportunity with labour disintegrating and yet they are still moribund and going nowhere.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history on time ever.
    Still not happened to the Kuomintang in Taiwan or the ANC despite quite a few pretty big Black Swans over the years. Only cost the Lib Dems in Japan 3 years or so in the last 80. CSU have run Bavaria since 1957. Sure, they might decide to f*ck up but realistically, given what you've seen of the SNP party machine, do you really think that will happen before Independence?

    That's the thing, the great beauty of the SNP. Their fundamental ethos FORCES good government on Scotland.
    But more devolution of tax and spending to Scotland will expose those fault lines.

    Likely to go well as long as the recovery continues, as a rising tide floats all boats, but when the economic cycle fades then the stresses will be manifest.
    When the economic cycle turns down commodities tend to rise. Can you name a Constituent Country which is rich in commodities?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Dair said:

    There's some truth in that. But the replacement is the Greens. On current projections the Greens could be the third largest party in Scotland. If the SNP replace Labour and the Tories with another Independence Party... it's all over.

    A far-left party will never replace a centre-right party, for obvious reasons. Nor, for that matter, will a pro-independence party replace a pro-union party in a context where the major player is also a pro-independence party.

    Besides, the Greens anywhere near power would create massive internal tensions between uber-socialists, ecowarriers, NOTA-ers and the rest
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    The two party system (Lab/Con) does not operate in Northern Ireland and few English based commentators seem to have noticed that it does not work here in Scotland either. Conservative has been a toxic brand in Scotland for some years (1 MP) and Labour is about to go the same way. This is looking like a trend not a blip. If the two main brands cannot command an overall majority over the whole UK then coalitions may be the future and FPTP is not a good way forward. The Scottish Greens now have 7 times the members they had last year and over the UK the Greens are looking a lot stronger than the LibDems.

    To summarise Con and Lab have lost their way in significant areas of the UK and it is possible that we may not see an overall majority for one party again.

    Welcome.

    Before we say too much about the state of the green vote I think we should see how they perform at a general election. Its very easy to say "green" on a phone poll, or click "green" on an internet poll, and its a convenient "none of the above" place holder for people with a range of political inclinations. The acid test is how much does that vote fade at an election.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,915
    From previous thread. On Halifax Labour being put into Special Measures.

    There are 14 others as Reported by Labour List in 2013:

    Bethnal Green and Bow
    Poplar and Limehouse
    Brentford & Isleworth
    Ealing Southall
    Falkirk West
    Feltham & Heston
    Oldham East and Saddleworth
    Oldham West and Royton
    Birmingham Hall Green
    Birmingham Hodge Hill
    Birmingham Ladywood
    Birmingham Perry Barr
    Warley
    Slough

    http://labourlist.org/2013/07/the-kafkaesque-farce-of-the-labour-party-special-measures-revisited/

    Both exactly information that they are very open about.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,915
    Typo. Not exactly...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    edited March 2015
    Welcome to pb.com, Mr. Dawson.

    It's possible. I'd suggest it depends whether we alter the electoral system. If FPTP remains then we will see an overall majority, and it's just a question of time and political realignment.

    Mr. Dair, on the final pages now.

    His treatment of certain groups was reprehensible, and he did act like a dick towards the Scots. On the other hand, he also won rather a lot of victories and, after his father (and before his son) was a strong king who helped improve England's lot.

    Besides, how many of those we venerate have been cruel? What did Alexander do to the Bactrians? Caesar committed (and I use the word chosen by TA Dodge decades before WWII) a holocaust against Germanian tribesmen [from memory, around half a million are reckoned to have been slaughtered]. And yet that scarcely registers in anyone's assessment of the man.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Dair, the Scottish polls consistently get the Tory vote wrong for Holyrood. If the Greens break into double figures they will have vastly exceeded any previous performance, even when Robin Harper (think that was his name) was their far more moderate leader in Scotland.

    Other than the ARSE in half an hour and Opinium and YouGov, do we know of any other polls due today?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015

    Mr. Dair, not sure the ANC's the best example to follow given problems over crime, energy supply, AIDS, corruption and so forth. What happens when they stop walking to electoral victories could be rather bad (in the South Africa Question Time special, it's my understanding that Zimbabwe-style land acquisition was a popular suggestion).

    What would be interesting, in a dramatic sort of way, would be if there is independence following a 'proper vote' [ie not some unilateral declaration], and the Scottish economy is hit catastrophically hard due to lack of currency union, financial services fleeing south, and bilateral trade falling off a cliff (NB I know you don't think that would happen should independence occur).

    Would Scots blame the SNP? My guess is they might blame the English, and the SNP might, electorally, be alright.

    I'm certianly not advocating the ANC as a model to follow. Just pointing out to Flashman that they've been in power for 25 years despite pretty much 25 years of f*cking up.

    As for "after independence", honestly, I don't give a f*ck. I'll be voting Tory**.

    ** or Green and if you think that's a contradiction, you've not been paying attention.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history on time ever.
    Still not happened to the Kuomintang in Taiwan or the ANC despite quite a few pretty big Black Swans over the years. Only cost the Lib Dems in Japan 3 years or so in the last 80. CSU have run Bavaria since 1957. Sure, they might decide to f*ck up but realistically, given what you've seen of the SNP party machine, do you really think that will happen before Independence?

    That's the thing, the great beauty of the SNP. Their fundamental ethos FORCES good government on Scotland.
    But more devolution of tax and spending to Scotland will expose those fault lines.

    Likely to go well as long as the recovery continues, as a rising tide floats all boats, but when the economic cycle fades then the stresses will be manifest.
    When the economic cycle turns down commodities tend to rise. Can you name a Constituent Country which is rich in commodities?
    Didn't you say the other day that oil/gas is less than 10% of the Scottish economy?

    In any case I think that you are wrong. Commodities generally fall in economic downturns and go up in periods of worldwide growth.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited March 2015
    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    But the outcome - it's clearly failed. At the end of the day the English electorate don't care about long term economic plans or confident economic management. They just want free stuff paid for, as always, by Scotland.

    They want free stuff from where ever, Scotland if it is convenient, but the Magic Money Tree, or from taxes on people that earn more money than they do, or have more rooms in their hour, or more letters in their name, really they don't care, they just want, it's depressing.

    The pervading message in our culture for a generation is that you dont have to do anything to be successful, or at least to be paid. In school is "prizes for all" even if you can't be bothered, or don't try. When you leave school you get money for sitting at home playing on your xbox. Families of kids have now grown up where both their parents and grandparents living on the dole, and have no role model for productive work and a sense of entitlement for being paid to sit on their arse. We have a whole generation of people that don't understand that in the real world you sometimes don't get prizes unless you work hard, and some times not even then.
    A lot of people were working hard in the 80s but still lost their jobs. You say: "tough that's life" but people don't like it and unless the Tories regain some interest in the fundamental fairness of economic outcomes there will be a lot of people who won't listen to them.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dair said:

    TGOHF said:

    the SNP will screw up soon like all socialist parties do - like Labour has on the NHS in Wales and then can be kicked in the head. Unemployment is rising in Scotland - if that continues then the Teflon could be severely tested. Even the mighty Gordon Brown fell to earth eventually - and how...

    Clutching at the straw of a single month's Unemployment figures is not going to help you very much. Scottish unemployment goes ahead of UK wide unemployment about 2 months in 12 each year. Has done since the SNP became the Scottish Government.

    But the other 10 months....
    You miss the point Dair- it will be something on their watch - happened to very government in the history on time ever.
    Still not happened to the Kuomintang in Taiwan or the ANC despite quite a few pretty big Black Swans over the years. Only cost the Lib Dems in Japan 3 years or so in the last 80. CSU have run Bavaria since 1957. Sure, they might decide to f*ck up but realistically, given what you've seen of the SNP party machine, do you really think that will happen before Independence?

    That's the thing, the great beauty of the SNP. Their fundamental ethos FORCES good government on Scotland.
    But more devolution of tax and spending to Scotland will expose those fault lines.

    Likely to go well as long as the recovery continues, as a rising tide floats all boats, but when the economic cycle fades then the stresses will be manifest.
    When the economic cycle turns down commodities tend to rise. Can you name a Constituent Country which is rich in commodities?
    ROFL

    another in Dair's list of magical economic laws.

    When demand drops supply rises along with the prices.

    I suppose that's why all those Australian miners are reporting boom profits on the back of China's slowdown. Or not.

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Dair said:

    But the outcome - it's clearly failed. At the end of the day the English electorate don't care about long term economic plans or confident economic management. They just want free stuff paid for, as always, by Scotland.

    jobs. Youst.

    They want free stuff from where ever, Scotland if it is convenient, but the Magic Money Tree, or from taxes on people that earn more money than they do, or have more rooms in their hour, or more letters in their name, really they don't care, they just want, it's depressing.

    The pervading message in our culture for a generation is that you dont have to do anything to be successful, or at least to be paid. In school is "prizes for all" even if you can't be bothered, or don't try. When you leave school you get money for sitting at home playing on your xbox. Families of kids have now grown up where both their parents and grandparents living on the dole, and have no role model for productive work and a sense of entitlement for being paid to sit on their arse. We have a whole generation of people that don't understand that in the real world you sometimes don't get prizes unless you work hard, and some times not even then.
    A lot of people were working hard in the 80s but still lost their jobs. You say: "tough that's life" but people don't like it and unless the Tories regain some interest in the fundamental fairness of economic outcomes there will be a lot of people who won't listen to them.
    And what happens if the people's expectations of "fairness" (which in the case means handouts) are writing a cheque the country can't afford to cash.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Zanu PF have been in power for a while too Dair. As have the communists in China and North Korea....
This discussion has been closed.