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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2010 LDs are nearly twice as likely to be switching to LAB

SystemSystem Posts: 11,693
edited March 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2010 LDs are nearly twice as likely to be switching to LAB in the battlegrounds as they are in Ashcroft’s national polls

I was on a train heading to London to speak at a conference when Lord Ashcroft’s latest CON-LAB battleground polling was published yesterday and have only now got round to looking at the detail.

Read the full story here


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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    First!
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    I looked at the proportion of switchers in the last four Ashcroft National polls and compared them with the average level of switching in this latest round of marginals’ polling.

    *cough*....base size?.......*cough*
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I looked at the proportion of switchers in the last four Ashcroft National polls and compared them with the average level of switching in this latest round of marginals’ polling.

    *cough*....base size?.......*cough*

    So how many polls do you want me to go back?

    It is funny how PB Tories are ready to accept all the undoubtedly bad news for Labour from Lord A's Scottish polling but then are in denial about his surveys in England.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    I looked at the proportion of switchers in the last four Ashcroft National polls and compared them with the average level of switching in this latest round of marginals’ polling.

    *cough*....base size?.......*cough*

    So how many polls do you want me to go back?

    It is funny how PB Tories are ready to accept all the undoubtedly bad news for Labour from Lord A's Scottish polling but then are in denial about his surveys in England.

    Something about PB Tories are always right, and that they always learn.... ;)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783

    I looked at the proportion of switchers in the last four Ashcroft National polls and compared them with the average level of switching in this latest round of marginals’ polling.

    *cough*....base size?.......*cough*

    So how many polls do you want me to go back?

    It is funny how PB Tories are ready to accept all the undoubtedly bad news for Labour from Lord A's Scottish polling but then are in denial about his surveys in England.

    Its a simple polite question.

    If you don't know the answer, say so - no need to launch into a diatribe.....
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    I hope soomeone has told Osborne to leave pasties alone.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783

    I hope soomeone has told Osborne to leave pasties alone.

    At least he hasn't bunked off to Washington.....
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2015
    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758

    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words

    " clearly wasn't breast-fed " in reference to Ed Balls
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited March 2015
    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783

    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words

    Isn't "hard working families" obligatory?
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    We have to be understanding of supporters of parties about to lose nearly all of their seats Carlotta
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Will UK pollsters be twitching this morning at the failure of the Israeli polls that overstated the left and made themselves look like a load of complete pricks, which is unusual in the Jewish state.

    PBers should look to my humble ARSE - the greatest election predicator in the history of mankind and never knowingly undersold.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    Voters that don't vote Tory, wont vote Tory - shock!
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2015

    We have to be understanding of supporters of parties about to lose nearly all of their seats Carlotta

    WOW !!

    You predicting Ukip to lose their two seats and Thanet South not to have a Faragasm. :tongue:

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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    You said virtually the same last night - like Miliband on the economy - not an idea in your head.

    We have to be understanding of supporters of parties about to lose nearly all of their seats Carlotta

    :):):):)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    Two kitchens or second kitchens......
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    We have to be understanding of supporters of parties about to lose nearly all of their seats Carlotta

    You'd need a heart of stone not to laugh at pounding the LDs are in for,
    Electing Ed would be a dark day for the UK but in every cloud, etc etc.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words

    Isn't "hard working families" obligatory?
    It is indeed Ms Vance - unfortunately.

    @Alanbrooke - that's the ticket, keep em coming :)
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2015
    SL all out for 133 after 37.2 overs against SA in the QF of the Cricket World Cup.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    The 2010 Lib Dems have been the source of recent Tory strength in the national Ashcroft polls. It would be interesting to see these figures for the switches to the Tories. You'd expect that the Lib Dems would retain fewer votes in the Lab/Con marginals and so that this figure would be higher for both parties.

    If it's only higher for Labour then that would be the opposite of the increase in efficiency that DavidL is hoping for.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words

    Isn't "hard working families" obligatory?
    It is indeed Ms Vance - unfortunately.

    @Alanbrooke - that's the ticket, keep em coming :)
    Almost ....

    Tax relief on hard working second kitchens. :smile:

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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    JackW said:

    We have to be understanding of supporters of parties about to lose nearly all of their seats Carlotta

    WOW !!

    You predicting Ukip to lose their two seats and Thanet South not to have a Faragasm. :tongue:

    Once the rightful King across the water Francis II ascends the throne and rules by divine right such considerations will be trivial.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sporting Index: Labour up, Tories down.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Did I notice SNP drifted a bit to 41 - 43 ? Or, has that remained the same ?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    edited March 2015
    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    The clue lies with the 22% who voted Lib Dem last time. However much credit they get for instigating popular and even socially equitable policies their stock just keeps falling

    The only available explanation is that the compassionate left have decided that having spent the last five years sleeping with dogs they are now so infected with flees there is only one party that can represent their values.

    So Ed or George don't really matter. The big hearted British have no other choice.
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    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Moving average chart of the 100 most recent YouGov polls. Click to enlarge...

    Simple, Free Image and File Hosting at MediaFire
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,444
    I think the Tories only real hope is to make this election ultra-presidential: stick leaflets through the door with big pictures saying; "Who do you want as Prime Minister? Ed Miliband or David Cameron? Your vote counts."

    The Ashcroft poll showed 14% of Labour voters were both satisfied with DC and preferred him to Ed Miliband.

    On a constituency poll where Labour leads by 5% (say 40 to 35%) if the Tories can win over just half of the Labour voters who want and prefer Cameron, that should shift the result to about 37.8%-37.2% in the Tories favour. The same could be done with UKIP voters too.

    So I'd only really panic where constituency polls Ashcroft show Labour ahead by 5% or more. But the Tories are still behind, and have a lot of work to do to turn it around.
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    Paul_Mid_BedsPaul_Mid_Beds Posts: 1,409
    Roger said:

    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    The clue lies with the 22% who voted Lib Dem last time. However much credit they get for instigating popular and even socially equitable policies their stock just keeps falling

    The only available explanation is that the compassionate left have decided that having spent the last five years sleeping with dogs they are now so infected with flees there is only one party that can represent their values.

    So Ed or George don't really matter. The big hearted British have no other choice.

    Zzzzzzzzzzz.....
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    Roger said:

    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    The clue lies with the 22% who voted Lib Dem last time. However much credit they get for instigating popular and even socially equitable policies their stock just keeps falling

    The only available explanation is that the compassionate left have decided that having spent the last five years sleeping with dogs they are now so infected with flees there is only one party that can represent their values.

    So Ed or George don't really matter. The big hearted British have no other choice.

    Right up until they have to call in the IMF, and they learn the hard way there is no magic money tree. It seems the big hearted but ignorant British need to relearn this every generation.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Gadfly

    "Moving average chart of the 100 most recent YouGov polls."

    The confusing word is 'moving'. Not since Steve Hilton coined 'compassionate conservatism' have I seen anything less moving
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    Roger said:

    Gadfly

    "Moving average chart of the 100 most recent YouGov polls."

    The confusing word is 'moving'. Not since Steve Hilton coined 'compassionate conservatism' have I seen anything less moving

    Roger, you voted for Tony Blair, need I say more ?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Off topic, but the BBC is about to walk into another round of suggestions that it is biased against Scottish nationalism when it changes its website design next week. Scotland will no longer have its own independent tab at the top of the page:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/b2c6502f-7b54-4fde-9695-9ce0b304a7ba
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Casino

    "I think the Tories only real hope is to make this election ultra-presidential: stick leaflets through the door with big pictures saying; "Who do you want as Prime Minister? Ed Miliband or David Cameron? Your vote counts.""

    I don't think that by election day there will be anyone unaware of that choice. I also don't think Cameron is sufficiently loved for that to be very effective. I think they would be better off trying to make Cameron seem interesting.Something I have to admit I struggle with
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    Voters that don't vote Tory, wont vote Tory - shock!

    Most voters don't vote Tory. And if enough of them are galvanised to vote specifically against the Tories then the Tories have a big problem.
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    Roger you wrap yourself in an aura of 'I'm a lefty and therefore a compassionate nice-guy'. But you are clearly just about the most tribal, prejudiced, unthinking, nasty rentagob on PB.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Is there some local difficulty in Frankfurt today?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    edited March 2015

    I think the Tories only real hope is to make this election ultra-presidential: stick leaflets through the door with big pictures saying; "Who do you want as Prime Minister? Ed Miliband or David Cameron? Your vote counts."

    The Ashcroft poll showed 14% of Labour voters were both satisfied with DC and preferred him to Ed Miliband.

    On a constituency poll where Labour leads by 5% (say 40 to 35%) if the Tories can win over just half of the Labour voters who want and prefer Cameron, that should shift the result to about 37.8%-37.2% in the Tories favour. The same could be done with UKIP voters too.

    So I'd only really panic where constituency polls Ashcroft show Labour ahead by 5% or more. But the Tories are still behind, and have a lot of work to do to turn it around.

    The U.S. (inevitably) has had some very strong "do you really want him as President?" ads.

    It's 3am.

    President Obama is calling.

    Who do you want to answer the phone?

    (Can't remember who that was done to, or whether it worked - but it stuck in my mind!)

    Edit -- it was Hillary:

    http://www.salon.com/2008/03/06/commander_in_chief_2/

    May work better for an incumbent.....
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    BUDGET day.

    Excitement is akin to Spurs sitting 4th with 1 game left to go ... George like us, is in control of his destiny...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/10804881/2006-remembered-The-food-poisoning-bug-that-cost-Tottenham-Hotspur-their-Champions-League-dream.html
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    dr_spyn said:

    Is there some local difficulty in Frankfurt today?

    @journodave: Germany taking security seriously as protesters demonstrate against opening of new ECB building in Frankfurt http://t.co/1kDwHNyndV
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Interesting piece of analysis Mike. It has been obvious for a while that Labour was doing better in Ashcroft's marginal polls than nationally and this makes sense as a reason. It is why I think seats like Broxtowe are nailed on gains for Labour and I am surprised JackW has it as TCTC.

    Today is a very important day in the election and unfortunately I am stuck in Court. Today Osborne needs to win over a significant part of the unusually large number of those yet to make up their minds. If he doesn't I fear it is all over for the Tories.

    At the time of the debate furore it seemed as if Labour was desperate for a game changer. I didn't understand that then (since they were winning) and I don't now. It is the Tories that need a game changer and today is probably their best shot.

    He needs not only to demonstrate the consequences of his excellent stewardship and promise some goodies but to make this election about the management of the economy front and central. So expect several references to risks and dark clouds as well as boasting. It is not going to be an easy task. It is by far the most important speech of Osbo's political career.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    edited March 2015

    Morning all.

    Sky News' Economics Editor Ed Conway and Political Editor Faisal Islam give their predictions on Budget Bingo. – I’m sure PB's finest can add many more to the list. :)


    http://news.sky.com/story/1446992/budget-bingo-predicting-osbornes-key-words

    " clearly wasn't breast-fed " in reference to Ed Balls
    For others like me not au lait fait with the latest:

    http://m.bbc.com/news/health-31925449
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343

    BUDGET day.

    Excitement is akin to Spurs sitting 4th with 1 game left to go ... George like us, is in control of his destiny...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/tottenham-hotspur/10804881/2006-remembered-The-food-poisoning-bug-that-cost-Tottenham-Hotspur-their-Champions-League-dream.html

    Lord, I hope he does better than Spurs.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Alanbrooke

    Tony Blair was interesting. He was the politician I liked best and from three years before he became leader. In all respects-not least the contrast with Thatcher-he was the ideal.

    I thought it with minor reservations up until the time he left. Now I'd put him in the worst half dozen ever.

    A useful object lesson. It never pays to be too definitive. You never know. One day I might find something to admire about Cameron as you might about Osborne
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke

    Tony Blair was interesting. He was the politician I liked best and from three years before he became leader. In all respects-not least the contrast with Thatcher-he was the ideal.

    I thought it with minor reservations up until the time he left. Now I'd put him in the worst half dozen ever.

    A useful object lesson. It never pays to be too definitive. You never know. One day I might find something to admire about Cameron as you might about Osborne

    Don't beat yourself up - I thought Gordon Brown would be a "breath of fresh air" after Tone.....
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Carlotta

    'For others like me not au fait with the latest:"

    http://m.bbc.com/news/health-31925449

    Jesus! Do you think it's too late?
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    The Grauniad has been speaking to the LibDems:

    Liberal Democrats who completed negotiations on the budget measures on Friday do not believe the budget itself contains measure big enough to transform the political landscape, and have insisted there is no giveaway flavour to the statement.
    However, with relations between the coalition parties turning toward a war footing even inside the Treasury, and the Liberal Democrats have no veto over what the chancellor says in his budget speech, as opposed to the specific measures that are announced.

    It is worth remembering that they will have had a redline on any measures, so much of GO's speech is likely to be jam tomorrow, rather than today. That will take careful framing, though he can be confident that initially he will get very good headlines - unless he makes a very obvious mistake.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    The clue lies with the 22% who voted Lib Dem last time. However much credit they get for instigating popular and even socially equitable policies their stock just keeps falling

    The only available explanation is that the compassionate left have decided that having spent the last five years sleeping with dogs they are now so infected with flees there is only one party that can represent their values.

    So Ed or George don't really matter. The big hearted British have no other choice.

    Right up until they have to call in the IMF, and they learn the hard way there is no magic money tree. It seems the big hearted but ignorant British need to relearn this every generation.
    Is the magic money tree bare after George Osborne has picked its fruit?
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    Tactical voting.

    To be noted that Conservative defence against Labour in 20 seats is less than a thousand votes or just over.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,027
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke

    Tony Blair was interesting. He was the politician I liked best and from three years before he became leader. In all respects-not least the contrast with Thatcher-he was the ideal.

    I thought it with minor reservations up until the time he left. Now I'd put him in the worst half dozen ever.

    A useful object lesson. It never pays to be too definitive. You never know. One day I might find something to admire about Cameron as you might about Osborne

    I though TB was OK up the time he grabbed Bush’s coat-tails and attacked Iraq. No PM is perfect; the Ecclestone affair stunk of course.
    But Iraq did it for me.
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    Voters that don't vote Tory, wont vote Tory - shock!

    Most voters don't vote Tory. And if enough of them are galvanised to vote specifically against the Tories then the Tories have a big problem.
    More voters don't vote Labour, or LD, or Kipper either, this isn't exactly a revelation.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,758
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke

    Tony Blair was interesting. He was the politician I liked best and from three years before he became leader. In all respects-not least the contrast with Thatcher-he was the ideal.

    I thought it with minor reservations up until the time he left. Now I'd put him in the worst half dozen ever.

    A useful object lesson. It never pays to be too definitive. You never know. One day I might find something to admire about Cameron as you might about Osborne

    Roger, you're just a sucker for advertising and slick sales.

    Now tell me Grant Shapps is your favourite politician :-)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,130
    All previous general election polling is now consigned to the bin.

    The election starts here.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343

    The Grauniad has been speaking to the LibDems:

    Liberal Democrats who completed negotiations on the budget measures on Friday do not believe the budget itself contains measure big enough to transform the political landscape, and have insisted there is no giveaway flavour to the statement.
    However, with relations between the coalition parties turning toward a war footing even inside the Treasury, and the Liberal Democrats have no veto over what the chancellor says in his budget speech, as opposed to the specific measures that are announced.

    It is worth remembering that they will have had a redline on any measures, so much of GO's speech is likely to be jam tomorrow, rather than today. That will take careful framing, though he can be confident that initially he will get very good headlines - unless he makes a very obvious mistake.

    This will be one of the most frustrating days of the Coalition for the Lib Dems. In budgets past Danny has been at least in the studios making it very clear that this has been a team effort to which he has made significant contributions (which he undoubtedly has). Today there will be tories out to speak for George everywhere and the Lib Dems will struggle to be heard at all.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,855
    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.
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    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece of analysis Mike. It has been obvious for a while that Labour was doing better in Ashcroft's marginal polls than nationally and this makes sense as a reason. It is why I think seats like Broxtowe are nailed on gains for Labour and I am surprised JackW has it as TCTC.

    Today is a very important day in the election and unfortunately I am stuck in Court. Today Osborne needs to win over a significant part of the unusually large number of those yet to make up their minds. If he doesn't I fear it is all over for the Tories.

    At the time of the debate furore it seemed as if Labour was desperate for a game changer. I didn't understand that then (since they were winning) and I don't now. It is the Tories that need a game changer and today is probably their best shot.

    He needs not only to demonstrate the consequences of his excellent stewardship and promise some goodies but to make this election about the management of the economy front and central. So expect several references to risks and dark clouds as well as boasting. It is not going to be an easy task. It is by far the most important speech of Osbo's political career.

    Indeed - is George a Gareth Bale or a Bobby Sol?

    I'm hoping the former!!
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    BenM said:

    An IHT cut would cement the view the Tories are just in it for themselves and their rich cronies. With Shapps lying and Dave spinning and dodging for all he's worth on the debates The Tory Party is once again spiv central and I don't think voters have the stomach for it.

    Voters that don't vote Tory, wont vote Tory - shock!

    Most voters don't vote Tory. And if enough of them are galvanised to vote specifically against the Tories then the Tories have a big problem.
    More voters don't vote Labour, or LD, or Kipper either, this isn't exactly a revelation.

    Yes, but as the last few elections have shown there is a very specific and strong anti-Tory vote. The Tories need it to stay at home as far as possible. EdM has been helping on that front, but if the Tories start playing up to type (as far as anti-Tories are concerned) then the anti-Ed effect may begin to dissipate. As discussed yesterday, Labour is far more liked than the Tories and even Dave. Outside of Scotland it just does not have the perception problems the Tories have. Whether that is fair or not is neither here nor there; it is what it is.
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    It's also remarkable that the coalition appears to have managed to keep some 'surprises' up its sleeve for today.... well I presume it has.

    That is astonishing really.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    If the parties are level in England on seats then we get EV4EL whoever is in power.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's one poll, amongst dozens. There's margin for error, and the vote is some time away still. It should be considered, but not treated as The Truth, or some sort of Delphic utterance.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    edited March 2015
    Alanbrooke

    "Now tell me Grant Shapps is your favourite politician :-)"

    Everytime I see him I'm reminded of this....



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZgwNutwK0Y
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    edited March 2015

    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    If the parties are level in England on seats then we get EV4EL whoever is in power.

    Stuff like alcohol limits for driving the SNP won't intervene on. The big one however, the budget is not an English law.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343

    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece of analysis Mike. It has been obvious for a while that Labour was doing better in Ashcroft's marginal polls than nationally and this makes sense as a reason. It is why I think seats like Broxtowe are nailed on gains for Labour and I am surprised JackW has it as TCTC.

    Today is a very important day in the election and unfortunately I am stuck in Court. Today Osborne needs to win over a significant part of the unusually large number of those yet to make up their minds. If he doesn't I fear it is all over for the Tories.

    At the time of the debate furore it seemed as if Labour was desperate for a game changer. I didn't understand that then (since they were winning) and I don't now. It is the Tories that need a game changer and today is probably their best shot.

    He needs not only to demonstrate the consequences of his excellent stewardship and promise some goodies but to make this election about the management of the economy front and central. So expect several references to risks and dark clouds as well as boasting. It is not going to be an easy task. It is by far the most important speech of Osbo's political career.

    Indeed - is George a Gareth Bale or a Bobby Sol?

    I'm hoping the former!!
    Do you think you will be seeing Gareth in a United shirt next season? Could you stand it? I suppose after Carrick and Berbatov (who was good last night, I thought) it is less of a shock.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343

    It's also remarkable that the coalition appears to have managed to keep some 'surprises' up its sleeve for today.... well I presume it has.

    That is astonishing really.

    Lord Lawson makes that point well although his suggestion of sticking 5p on a litre of petrol is probably not the kind of surprise we are looking for!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/11478759/When-George-Osborne-stands-up-to-deliver-his-Budget-this-is-what-he-should-say.html
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    If the parties are level in England on seats then we get EV4EL whoever is in power.

    Stuff like alcohol limits for driving the SNP won't intervene on. The big one however, the budget is not an English law.

    Of course. And then we come back to the issue of whether the SNP would side with the Tories to vote down a Labour budget and so trigger an election.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    DavidL said:

    It's also remarkable that the coalition appears to have managed to keep some 'surprises' up its sleeve for today.... well I presume it has.

    That is astonishing really.

    Lord Lawson makes that point well although his suggestion of sticking 5p on a litre of petrol is probably not the kind of surprise we are looking for!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/11478759/When-George-Osborne-stands-up-to-deliver-his-Budget-this-is-what-he-should-say.html
    5p on petrol would lose the election.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,444
    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    That of course would mean Ed Miliband is Prime Minister.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,343
    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's also remarkable that the coalition appears to have managed to keep some 'surprises' up its sleeve for today.... well I presume it has.

    That is astonishing really.

    Lord Lawson makes that point well although his suggestion of sticking 5p on a litre of petrol is probably not the kind of surprise we are looking for!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/11478759/When-George-Osborne-stands-up-to-deliver-his-Budget-this-is-what-he-should-say.html
    5p on petrol would lose the election.
    Yes, but if oil prices stay at the current level it is quite likely after the election whoever wins. 1p off the basic rate is a better idea although funding is an issue.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    antifrank said:

    Off topic, but the BBC is about to walk into another round of suggestions that it is biased against Scottish nationalism when it changes its website design next week. Scotland will no longer have its own independent tab at the top of the page:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/internet/entries/b2c6502f-7b54-4fde-9695-9ce0b304a7ba

    I was Surveyed for the Beta of this. And it was clear immediately that the navigation was severely lacking in the new layout.

    The BBC is dumbing down its web content to use the same layout for tablet, phone and computer. It started with the appalling changes to i-player and was only a matter of time till they started rolling it out to the main news site.

    Absolutely disgrace if you ask me and I doubt I was the only one feeding this back. I'm also not surprised such feedback has been ignored. Web designers have always been about style over usability since the first extended codes started letting them make sites which were unusable in the late 90s.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    edited March 2015
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:

    It's also remarkable that the coalition appears to have managed to keep some 'surprises' up its sleeve for today.... well I presume it has.

    That is astonishing really.

    Lord Lawson makes that point well although his suggestion of sticking 5p on a litre of petrol is probably not the kind of surprise we are looking for!
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/11478759/When-George-Osborne-stands-up-to-deliver-his-Budget-this-is-what-he-should-say.html
    5p on petrol would lose the election.
    Yes, but if oil prices stay at the current level it is quite likely after the election whoever wins. 1p off the basic rate is a better idea although funding is an issue.
    I still think that higher council bands to pay for a big cut in death duty is a winner - IHT is just makework for solicitors and tax accountants whereas council tax can't be dodged very easily at all. You could make the two revenue neutral quite easily I'm sure. The latter is also a far more constant revenue stream too.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
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    IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Roger said:

    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    The clue lies with the 22% who voted Lib Dem last time. However much credit they get for instigating popular and even socially equitable policies their stock just keeps falling

    The only available explanation is that the compassionate left have decided that having spent the last five years sleeping with dogs they are now so infected with flees there is only one party that can represent their values.

    So Ed or George don't really matter. The big hearted British have no other choice.

    Right up until they have to call in the IMF, and they learn the hard way there is no magic money tree. It seems the big hearted but ignorant British need to relearn this every generation.
    Is the magic money tree bare after George Osborne has picked its fruit?
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/24/article-2347524-1A7C5F28000005DC-357_634x400.jpg
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    If the parties are level in England on seats then we get EV4EL whoever is in power.

    Stuff like alcohol limits for driving the SNP won't intervene on. The big one however, the budget is not an English law.

    Of course. And then we come back to the issue of whether the SNP would side with the Tories to vote down a Labour budget and so trigger an election.

    But it doesn't trigger an election any more. It would trigger a Tory attempt at government and Labour being given the choice of letting the Tories in or backing an SNP led government.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    Are any of our polling firms involved out in Israel by the way, I think we should know if so and knock them out from all polling analysis here.

    Shocking 1992 type errors for them.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    antifrank said:
    Regurgitation.

    They returned weeks ago.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited March 2015
    I hope those at the get-together last night had a good time. I'll try and make it another time.

    I flicked through last night's thread briefly and it appears that some posters were wondering why so few Rotherham families were claiming compensation. This must mean it was all exaggerated.

    Middle class logic in trumps.

    A month ago, I listened to a Rotherham mother of an abused girl on Radio 5 Live. She was trying to explain to a bemused interviewer that the families do not trust the "authorities" even now. Trust has to be earned, and those who watched Roger Stone (the former leader of Rotherham Council) giving evidence to the parliamentary committee a couple of weeks ago will know why.

    He was still in denial (as the Casey report showed).

    If you were a mother, who'd called the police, provided them with the evidence in a sealed plastic bag, been fobbed off and told later that the bag of evidence had been 'lost', would you have any confidence?

    These aren't all articulate, middle class families with sharp elbows. These are families who have seen first hand how "authority' treats them.

    Roger, I can understand. For him, real life comes out of a lens or from a party political broadcast. Fox, I can understand, as doctors are trusted and he'd be shocked by how much distrust many people have for their 'betters'.

    This is one reason for the Tories' problem with toxicity. It's a tribal thing I'm still guilty of, despite moving 'up' in life. You'll find this distrust in the historical paedophile investigations of the police and Westminster too, even though the middle-class 'opinion-formers' in the media are more sympathetic to this.

    Rotherham though?

    Last night's thread shows they are right to be wary.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    edited March 2015
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    I've been cautious in Paisley & Renfrewshire South, reckon wee Dougie could get a bit of name voting and also some people could be put off by Mhairi's manner & age - nevertheless left the profit on Mhairi. (You can see this as you've got my book anyhow)
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    Ceremonially burning of a document two thirds of the public think is a disgrace will not do anything but endear you to the general public. The faux outrage Nazi comparisons do not seem to be working for the Labour idiots. If anything it just makes them look more ridiculous.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    I've been cautious in Paisley & Renfrewshire South, reckon wee Dougie could get a bit of name voting and also some people could be put off by Mhairi's manner & age - nevertheless left the profit on Mhairi. (You can see this as you've got my book anyhow)
    I'll try to look at that later today: sorry for the delay.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Dair said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    Ceremonially burning of a document two thirds of the public think is a disgrace will not do anything but endear you to the general public. The faux outrage Nazi comparisons do not seem to be working for the Labour idiots. If anything it just makes them look more ridiculous.
    That was not the view of the SNP leader:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nicola-sturgeon-lashes-out-councillors-who-burned-smith-commission-report-1477877
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,942
    edited March 2015
    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    I've been cautious in Paisley & Renfrewshire South, reckon wee Dougie could get a bit of name voting and also some people could be put off by Mhairi's manner & age - nevertheless left the profit on Mhairi. (You can see this as you've got my book anyhow)
    I'll try to look at that later today: sorry for the delay.
    There are some howlers like the 7-4 on Lab seats, Con votes that constitute the votes/seats matrix. But obviously its the full picture thats important to me

    Also Berwick isn't fully in there as I can't remember what stake my Dad has on for me on the Lib Dems (2-1). It's green anyhow.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting piece of analysis Mike. It has been obvious for a while that Labour was doing better in Ashcroft's marginal polls than nationally and this makes sense as a reason. It is why I think seats like Broxtowe are nailed on gains for Labour and I am surprised JackW has it as TCTC.

    Today is a very important day in the election and unfortunately I am stuck in Court. Today Osborne needs to win over a significant part of the unusually large number of those yet to make up their minds. If he doesn't I fear it is all over for the Tories.

    At the time of the debate furore it seemed as if Labour was desperate for a game changer. I didn't understand that then (since they were winning) and I don't now. It is the Tories that need a game changer and today is probably their best shot.

    He needs not only to demonstrate the consequences of his excellent stewardship and promise some goodies but to make this election about the management of the economy front and central. So expect several references to risks and dark clouds as well as boasting. It is not going to be an easy task. It is by far the most important speech of Osbo's political career.

    Indeed - is George a Gareth Bale or a Bobby Sol?

    I'm hoping the former!!
    Do you think you will be seeing Gareth in a United shirt next season? Could you stand it? I suppose after Carrick and Berbatov (who was good last night, I thought) it is less of a shock.
    Used to it. We are a feeder for RM or MU really.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    antifrank said:

    Dair said:

    antifrank said:

    Pulpstar said:

    antifrank said:
    I'd have thought burning the Daily Record might be a better idea ;)
    It makes me unhappy about my bets on the SNP in the Paisley constituencies. The local party seems to lack the slightest trace of discretion.
    Ceremonially burning of a document two thirds of the public think is a disgrace will not do anything but endear you to the general public. The faux outrage Nazi comparisons do not seem to be working for the Labour idiots. If anything it just makes them look more ridiculous.
    That was not the view of the SNP leader:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nicola-sturgeon-lashes-out-councillors-who-burned-smith-commission-report-1477877
    Yeah and it was a weak response from her. I think there are occasions where she needs to use her popularity more than she does and take the occasional non-consensual stance, this would have been one of those occasions.

    You can't hold feet to the fire and not expect anything to get burnt.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Dair said:

    Yeah and it was a weak response from her. I think there are occasions where she needs to use her popularity more than she does and take the occasional non-consensual stance, this would have been one of those occasions

    You just said she did take the 'non-consensual' stance. You said two thirds of the public disagree with her
  • Options
    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    Yeah and it was a weak response from her. I think there are occasions where she needs to use her popularity more than she does and take the occasional non-consensual stance, this would have been one of those occasions

    You just said she did take the 'non-consensual' stance. You said two thirds of the public disagree with her
    Consensual is the opposite of Adversarial. That can only really be apparent in terms of the peer group (which in this case is other politicians). Are you confusing Consensual with Populist perhaps?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    After the last slew of polls I'm getting the distinct impression that there are just too many who share the left wing values of concern for the disadvantaged for the Tories to win however competently they run the economy.

    There is nothing left wing about "concern for the disadvantaged"

    I'm a Tory & take some fairly practical steps to help in the limited way that I can.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Good morning all.
    Well the polls were wrong in Israel. More than likely wrong here too.

    A very small PB gathering at the Shooting Star last night, and left early.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,855

    Sean_F said:

    A swing of 4.3% to Labour in marginal seats is bigger than most polls show, (equivalent to a 1.6% lead overall), but could be consistent with a bigger than average swing in England. It would put the Conservatives ahead by 3% in England, and probably leave the parties level in terms of English seats.

    It's curious to see no movement since October, given that Ashcroft polls generally have swung to the Conservatives since then.

    That of course would mean Ed Miliband is Prime Minister.
    A tie in the UK is roughly equivalent to a 3% Conservative lead in England, and would be a win for Ed Milliband.

    I think the Conservatives need to be ahead by c.3% in the UK, for Cameron to remain in office.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited March 2015
    Dair said:

    Consensual is the opposite of Adversarial. That can only really be apparent in terms of the peer group (which in this case is other politicians).

    Nicola's per group (other SNP politicians) have endorsed these people. She condemned them.

    In what way does that meet your (new) definition of consensual?
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,997
    edited March 2015
    JackW said:

    Will UK pollsters be twitching this morning at the failure of the Israeli polls that overstated the left and made themselves look like a load of complete pricks, which is unusual in the Jewish state.

    PBers should look to my humble ARSE - the greatest election predicator in the history of mankind and never knowingly undersold.

    I've previously compared the Israeli GE yesterday with the UK GE on May 7th.

    The last polls had:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 56
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 42
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 9 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 13 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    The exit polls showed:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 54
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 43
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 10 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 13 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    So Con where a bit worse and Lab and LibDem slightly better.

    The actual results this morning with 97% counted show:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 57-58
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 40
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 9 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 14 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    So Con where a lot better and Lab a lot worse (and SNP a bit better)
    LibDem will almost certainly support Con to give majority coalition.

    Draw your own conclusions. But it looks to me as if there were many shy Netanhayu voters who lied to the pollsters and even lied in the exit polls. There were three exit polls for three TV channels and they all showed similar results.

    IF the same happens here and there are still shy Tories in the polls then
    a) we should add 1-2% to the Con share and subtract 2% from the Lab share
    b) we should ignore the exit polls on the night
    c) we should perhaps expect the SNP to do a little better than the polls show.
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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    Dair said:

    Consensual is the opposite of Adversarial. That can only really be apparent in terms of the peer group (which in this case is other politicians).

    Nicola's per group (other SNP politicians) have endorsed these people. She condemned them.

    In what way does that meet your (new) definition of consensual?
    You misinterpreted what I said.

    I corrected your misinterpretation, you now know clearly what I meant.

    Why do you want a pedantic argument over a resolved issue?

    Pointless.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Mr. Dair, very disappointed but sadly not surprised to hear of that nonsense. The F1 and Sky F1 websites appear to have been buggered up for that purpose, with the added woe for the former of removing swathes of useful information.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,997
    Just had an email from Ed Balls about George Osborne.

    He talks about broken promises and concludes " That's why everyone knows the only way the Tories can make their sums add up is by breaking their promises again — raising VAT and putting our NHS at risk."

    The interesting word there is VAT. I wonder if Labour will rule out a VAT increase (not progressive) and then press the Tories to give a similar commitment with no weasel words like "we do not plan etc etc"?

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    DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited March 2015

    Mr. Dair, very disappointed but sadly not surprised to hear of that nonsense. The F1 and Sky F1 websites appear to have been buggered up for that purpose, with the added woe for the former of removing swathes of useful information.

    Usability always seems to be particularly far down the tree of decision making when it comes to IT. You would think that the current aim for phone/tablet/desktop convergence would have been shelved after the debacle of Windows 8 and the humiliating climb down by MS (not to mention it's financial cost).

    But no, as usability is such a low consideration, other aspects of tech become infected and eventually it will all come tumbling down like the death of PC Gaming.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,994
    Incidentally, those into YA sci-fi may wish to consider pre-ordering Abendau's Heir here: http://shop.ticketyboopress.co.uk/index.php?id_product=42&controller=product

    Comes out on the 31st, if you pre-order you get the e-book version for free. [Disclaimer: I do know the author. And the publisher].
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883
    Barnesian said:

    JackW said:

    Will UK pollsters be twitching this morning at the failure of the Israeli polls that overstated the left and made themselves look like a load of complete pricks, which is unusual in the Jewish state.

    PBers should look to my humble ARSE - the greatest election predicator in the history of mankind and never knowingly undersold.

    I've previously compared the Israeli GE yesterday with the UK GE on May 7th.

    The last polls had:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 56
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 42
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 9 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 13 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    The exit polls showed:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 54
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 43
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 10 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 13 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    So Con where a bit worse and Lab and LibDem slightly better.

    The actual results this morning with 97% counted show:
    Netanyahu bloc (Con) 57-58
    Herzog bloc (Lab) 40
    Kulanu (LibDeb) 9 NB Swings both ways
    Joint Arab (SNP) 14 NB Won't support Netanyahu but might provide S&C to Herzog

    So Con where a lot better and Lab a lot worse (and SNP a bit better)
    LibDem will almost certainly support Con to give majority coalition.

    Draw your own conclusions. But it looks to me as if there were many shy Netanhayu voters who lied to the pollsters and even lied in the exit polls. There were three exit polls for three TV channels and they all showed similar results.

    IF the same happens here and there are still shy Tories in the polls then
    a) we should add 1-2% to the Con share and subtract 2% from the Lab share
    b) we should ignore the exit polls on the night
    c) we should perhaps expect the SNP to do a little better than the polls show.
    d0 we should wake up and be disappointed it was only a wet dream and EICIPM
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,855
    CD13 said:

    I hope those at the get-together last night had a good time. I'll try and make it another time.

    I flicked through last night's thread briefly and it appears that some posters were wondering why so few Rotherham families were claiming compensation. This must mean it was all exaggerated.

    Middle class logic in trumps.

    A month ago, I listened to a Rotherham mother of an abused girl on Radio 5 Live. She was trying to explain to a bemused interviewer that the families do not trust the "authorities" even now. Trust has to be earned, and those who watched Roger Stone (the former leader of Rotherham Council) giving evidence to the parliamentary committee a couple of weeks ago will know why.

    He was still in denial (as the Casey report showed).

    If you were a mother, who'd called the police, provided them with the evidence in a sealed plastic bag, been fobbed off and told later that the bag of evidence had been 'lost', would you have any confidence?

    These aren't all articulate, middle class families with sharp elbows. These are families who have seen first hand how "authority' treats them.

    Roger, I can understand. For him, real life comes out of a lens or from a party political broadcast. Fox, I can understand, as doctors are trusted and he'd be shocked by how much distrust many people have for their 'betters'.

    This is one reason for the Tories' problem with toxicity. It's a tribal thing I'm still guilty of, despite moving 'up' in life. You'll find this distrust in the historical paedophile investigations of the police and Westminster too, even though the middle-class 'opinion-formers' in the media are more sympathetic to this.

    Rotherham though?

    Last night's thread shows they are right to be wary.

    I think a lot of people who've been sexually abused just want to put it out of their minds, and don't want to relive their experiences in Court.

    Rotherham has 260,000 people. The idea that 0.5% of that population have been sexually abused over the course of 15 years is not at all far-fetched.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,080
    Barnesian Indeed, Likud did a bit better than expected, but while Bibi returns he will still have to rely on the centrist Kulanu and the rightwing parties for a majority. It follows the Tories may do a bit better than expected, but still no majority, and have to rely on the LDs plus maybe even the DUP or even UKIP for a majority
This discussion has been closed.